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Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2018 June 18#Category:Ludvík Svoboda

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= June 18 =

==Category:First-person open world games==

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: delete (non-admin closure). Marcocapelle (talk) 05:02, 26 June 2018 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting :Category:First-person open world games

:Nominator's rationale: I believe this applies in this case as well: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Overcategorization Dohvahkiin (talk) 23:52, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

:* {{ping|Dohvahkiin}} could you please elaborate why this would apply? Marcocapelle (talk) 07:14, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

::* All Open world games are already grouped under one category, just called Open world video games. Interqwark created two new categories and started taking games out of the main category and adding them to the two new ones. As he described in Third-person Open world games, GTA would be in both categories, and it’s in the category for FPS and TPS. The difference is, those two are both video game genres. And they have separate Wikipedia articles associated with them, making them very clearly distinct. In this case, there is no First-person and Third-person Open world article, there’s just one article for all open world games. Also, I think that this part of overcategorization applies: “If two or more categories have a large overlap (e.g. because many athletes participate in multiple all-star games, and religious leadership does not radically change from year to year), it is generally better to merge the subjects to a single category, and create lists to detail the multiple instances.” Many Open world games have both first and third person, which would mean that many of the games he wants to remove from the main category and add to the two sub categories would be in both. Dohvahkiin (talk) 07:23, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

::::* Here’s The link to the main category as well: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Open_world_video_games Dohvahkiin (talk) 07:36, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

  • Delete - As per my same reason here. TheDeviantPro (talk) 14:32, 19 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Delete Don't see any reason to relate perspective/viewpoint to the use of open world in video games. --The1337gamer (talk) 22:26, 25 June 2018 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

== Category:Brian Smith (administrator) ==

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: wrong venue for what's being proposed. The content in question is an article, not a category. Bearcat (talk) 16:57, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

:* Propose renaming :Category:Brian Smith (administrator) to :Category:Brian Smith (Physical Chemist)

:Nominator's rationale: The revised name better reflects Brian Smith's profession 86.183.158.221 (talk) 16:47, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

  • This board is for discussion of categories, not for proposing the renaming of articles. You need to file a requested move, not a CFD. Bearcat (talk) 16:57, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

== Category:Fictional LGBT characters in radio ==

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: delete (non-admin closure). Marcocapelle (talk) 05:06, 26 June 2018 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting {{Lc|Fictional LGBT characters in radio}}

:Nominator's rationale: Single-entry WP:SMALLCAT whose name is not an accurate or defining reflection of its contents. "Fictional X in radio" would refer to characters in radio comedy or drama programs — but the one entry here is a song, not scripted radio fiction. The song is already filed in {{cl|LGBT-related songs}} as it is, so categorizing it as "radio" isn't adding any noteworthy or defining context that isn't already covered off by existing categories — the often subjective question of whether a song is about a character per se, or really an expression of the real singer's real feelings instead, is not a category-worthy distinction when it comes to songs, nor are songs defined by radio play or the lack thereof. If somebody had based a notable radio drama series on the song, then this category might be warranted — but we don't categorize songs as radio content per se, or their narrators or subjects as radio characters, or their singers as radio personalities. Bearcat (talk) 16:37, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

  • Delete per nom, without prejudice for later recreation - though "in radio drama" but better define if recreated. Would not removal of the one (wrong) entry trigger automatic deletion? Agree that mere content on radio - as in this example - is insufficient to justify a category. Pincrete (talk) 20:11, 24 June 2018 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

== Category:Crimes related to the European migrant crisis ==

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: Delete. Timrollpickering 23:21, 19 July 2018 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting {{Lc|Crimes related to the European migrant crisis}}

:Nominator's rationale: This [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Category:Crimes_related_to_the_European_migrant_crisis&action=history recently created category] raises a number of concerns. Firstly, though not most importantly, some of these are 'alleged' crimes - plots etc that never went to court. Secondly, any relationship to the 'European migrant crisis' is often tenuous - often being only related in that the perp - or alleged perp - is a refugee or migrant, or the child of one. This leads to my main concern - the category is de facto - crimes committed (or alleged against) - a specific demographic group (migrants - or European born children of migrants). Is this something we do? Do we have 'murders commited by black men' or 'frauds committed by Jews' as categories? Thoughts Pincrete (talk) 15:21, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

::Note that the category contains both attacks on migrants who arrived during the crisis and Attacks by such migrants. And Note that the perpetrators number both Christians (eg. 2015 IKEA stabbing attack) and Jews members of other reliligious and ethnic groups, including many -sub-Saharan Africans, Muslims from several regions, and, I suppose, secularists and atheists.E.M.Gregory (talk) 15:30, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

:::{{ec}}I was about to add that there is at least one article about attacks against migrants. Who mentioned religion? Migrants or their children are still a demographic group regardless of that.Pincrete (talk) 15:34, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

  • Delete - There have been European migrant crises for hundreds if not thousands of years. For this category to work, there would have to be some kind of cut-off date and the connection between the crime and the "crisis" would have to be proved. As an illustration of what I mean, does Expulsion of the Jews from Sicily belong in this category? And if not, why not? Deb (talk) 15:36, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

::I would add that these crimes don't belong in the "European migrant crisis" category either. Deb (talk) 15:38, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

  • :Category:Crimes by period.E.M.Gregory (talk) 16:02, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Keep Everybody understands what this category means, except a few people who seem to want to misunderstand it. The European migrant crisis is not existent since hundreds and thousands of years. It is existent since 2015, see the related article, otherwise that one would have to be renamed, too. The arguments I read above seem to be made to deny that there is in fact a link between the crisis and the crimes. Transparent indeed. But sad but true: Obviously there are links, and they definitely belong in this category.--Greywin (talk) 16:03, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
  • So who were all those people referred to here? Or the ones who started gathering here in 1999? Or don't they count because they weren't in Germany? Deb (talk) 17:37, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

::I don't really understand what you mean, but a crisis is a defined period of time. There is no persistent crisis over hundreds or thousands of years. And the article clearly defines its subject, everything else should be discussed on the article's talk page. As long as the article is named that way, the related category has to have the same name.--Greywin (talk) 17:49, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

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| GODWIN POINT | | GODWIN POINT | | GODWIN POINT |

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::::Untrue; confusing Indian castes for Nazis. Also see: :Category:People murdered by Italian-American organized crime; :Category:Politicians convicted of crimes by nationality, :Category:American mobsters by ethnic or national origin, :Category:Hindu religious leaders with criminal convictions.E.M.Gregory (talk) 11:57, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

::::: I am not interested in discussing out-of-place comparisons with Holocaust and Kristallnacht. I'm just pointing out that you did use these terms and made a comparison. Place Clichy (talk) 16:18, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

:::::::Nom asserts: "my main concern - the category is de facto - crimes committed (or alleged against) - a specific demographic group (migrants - or European born children of migrants). Is this something we do? Do we have 'murders commited by black men' or 'frauds committed by Jews' as categories?" I responded by listing several longstanding categories where perps, or victims, or, as on Kristallnacht and many Nazi-related cases you chose to ignore - both perps and victims are members of "a specific demographic group."E.M.Gregory (talk) 17:19, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

::::::::And no one would try to deny that THE defining feature of events such as Kristallnacht was the group attacked or - in other instances - the attackers. I would not question the legitimacy of :Category:Antisemitic murders in 21st century France - since either the authorities or other facts characterise 'antisemetism' as a defining feature. Pincrete (talk) 17:58, 22 June 2018 (UTC)

::Concur with rename :Category:Crimes related to the European migrant crisis (2015–) . I have had similar thought about the need to rename European migrant crisis to European migrant crisis (2015–).E.M.Gregory (talk) 17:59, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

:::I don't see the 'cut off' date as the problem - the main problem is "what are the defining characteristics" that link any incident to the crisis - other than being wholly or partly perpetrated by migrants? The most notorious event listed November 2015 Paris attacks was perpetrated by French and other European citizens, with some peripheral figures possibly 'slipping in' among refugees. How is the migrant crisis a 'defining feature' of that crime? And which RS has said it is?Pincrete (talk) 18:53, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

:*If you look at the articles in the category, including November 2015 Paris attacks you will see that the fact that either the perpetrators or the victims entered the EU as part of the European migrant crisis is a feature of each article, because the fact was also a focus of attention for the the pages' sources. This is true of attacks on refugee centers, murder committed by a migrant living in a refugee shelters, and for attacks by rejected applicants for asylum. It is true for New Year's Eve sexual assaults in Germany, and for individual cases of murder and rape, for failed terrorism plots, and for melee attacks. It is not so much a category created by me, as it is a category created by reliable sources writing about this phenomenon. E.M.Gregory (talk) 20:08, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

:::A small number of the Paris attackers had probably 'slipped in' according to the French PM - the majority were European, although the incident did draw attention to the migrant issue. Fundamentally you are saying that any crime (or alleged crime, or plot), wholly or partially involving a recent migrant or migrants is inherently connected to the migrant crisis. In one sense this is self-evidently true (if the person had not migrated, the event would not have happened, or not where it did). I am genuinely in two minds about this - one sees the value of this category as I am not so foolish as to think that there is no connection at all between migration and crime, self-evidently there is, if only for the reason I gave, that the person would not have been in Europe if not for migration - the other mind wonders why I can't find any "rapes/murders/frauds/stabbings involving (insert name of ethnic or social group)" categories. The example categories you give all relate to historical events, where the dust has settled, the books been written and it would be pointless to pretend that targetted acts were not committed by group X against group Y. The ethnicity or social group of the perps and/or victims is clearly a defining feature in your examples. Pincrete (talk) 21:56, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

  • Delete as a trivial intersection. There are all sorts of things specifically related to the European migrant crisis, like politics regarding this crisis and ships with refugees crossing the Mediterranean, but crimes is no more related to the topic than births or animals. That does not imply that refugees do not commit crimes, of course, so the fact that it is mentioned in the articles is perfectly fine. Secondarily, if not deleted, rename to :Category:Crimes committed by recent migrants in Europe (2015–), per WP:OCASSOC we should not be unnecessarily vague about the scope of the category. Marcocapelle (talk) 21:50, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Comment, this is a recreation of a category that has been deleted before, see this earlier discussion. {{ping|E.M.Gregory}} you should have mentioned that first discussion right away, you took part in it as well. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:41, 19 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Thanks for spotting this one. Interestingly, in that discussion it is stated by the keepers that the crisis began in 2008! Deb (talk) 06:41, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

:::Well that is a pretty appalling discussion, but do note that it took place early in 2016. Are discussions about Categories different than discussions of articles? i.e., is it illegitimate to bring a deleted category back when years have passed and the number of well-supported articles in the category has grown. Not to mention the magnitude of the current political discussion of crimes related to the European migrant crisis.E.M.Gregory (talk) 11:49, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

  • For information, I have now submitted a request to move the article European migrant crisis to a new title. If accepted, this will clearly affect this category. Deb (talk) 08:03, 19 June 2018 (UTC)
  • : Even with the proposed target name of your move request, which is Immigration to Europe in the 21st century, and were it applied to this category, we would still have an alledged relation between crimes and immigration that would cause problems under guidelines WP:OCASSOC and WP:AND, not to mention WP:NPOV. Place Clichy (talk) 09:29, 19 June 2018 (UTC)
  • ::I wasn't meaning to suggest that it was a final solution :-) Deb (talk) 13:29, 19 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom. Any way I think about it, I can only think of very bad things occuring with this category. Adding this to November 2015 Paris attacks, while the attackers were actually French and Belgian, shows the level of POV that such a category will inevitably lead to, unless you consider that migration between Belgium and France is part of the European migrant crisis. The last paragraph of WP:AND is very clear about how the juxtaposition of two concepts with an alledged relation (here, crimes and migrants) are red flags of neutrality problems. This guideline suggests not to combine concepts that are not commonly combined in reliable sources, which I believe is the case here unless proven opposite. Place Clichy (talk) 09:29, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

:: Whether any particular crime belongs in the category can be discussed on the article's talk page, but there was SIGCOV of the fact that the perpetrators of the 2015 Paris attack included both new migrants and EU citizens who had returned from Syria by posing as migrants.E.M.Gregory (talk) 11:29, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

::: Posing as migrants. The connection with any migrant crisis is really far-fetched. Place Clichy (talk) 16:18, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

:::: No it isn't, it is a notable fact and clearly links the article to this category, when the crisis is used by perps to get into the EU (it was denied that this was possible before e.g. by German secret services).--Greywin (talk) 17:51, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

  • Delete. It is well nigh impossible to categorise specific incidents in this way. Connections will tend to be loose, even at best. It invites not so much personal opinion as, more dangerously, speculation based on prejudice. Izzat Kutebar (talk) 13:03, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

:*In fact, the centrality of migrant status in the pages in this category is very clear: 2017 Kandel stabbing attack, Murder of Maria Ladenburger, 2016 Ansbach bombing...E.M.Gregory (talk) 14:14, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

  • Frankly, the deletion arguments boil down to WP:JUSTDONTLIKEIT. The reasons for deletion given by Nom, that we don't do categories of crime defined by a "a specific demographic group", or that some of these cases never went to court were refuted. So editors keep coming up with new rationales. That the "intersection "trivial" - when it is a major driver of voting that is in fact upending parliamentary majorities in Europe. Or that it is "impossible" to identify theses cases. But it isn't any harder to identify these than :Category:Plots and attacks using pressure cooker bombs, another Category I created. We identify them by letting the police and courts do their work, then we cite reliable sources on what is found by the investigating authorities. Another editor argues darkly that "very bad things" will "occur" if we keep this category. Yes, it it is a very bad thing that we now have categories like :Category:Murdered Belgian police officers, :Category:Antisemitic murders in 21st century France, and :Category:ISIL terrorist incidents in Italy, but we are not here to WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS and I have yet to see a policy-based argument for deleting this category.E.M.Gregory (talk) 17:48, 19 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom and Deb — Rhododendrites talk \\ 18:51, 19 June 2018 (UTC)
  • delete as subjective. How exactly are these "related" to the "crisis"? It seems to me that in most cases the relationship is suppositional: an immigrant (or even just a foreigner) did something, so it had to do with the "crisis. Mangoe (talk) 20:28, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

:::I think that articles were added on the base of hard facts, when perps clearly came in in the course of the crisis. Maybe you show me a "subjective" case?--Greywin (talk) 18:39, 20 June 2018 (UTC)

:::: Think again. A sample taken from the category: Killing of Susanna Feldmann mentions a murder committed by someone having the status of asylum seaker. Nowhere in the article does the word "crisis" appear, or is a relation with the "migrant crisis" even alledged. To see any connection between this individual crime and the "crisis" would be like considering that there were no asylum seekers before. In my opinion, :Category:European migrant crisis and :Category:Crimes related to the European migrant crisis are both out of place and can be removed from this article. Most articles seem to have been put there with a relation of a similar level, indeed very subjective, if one can even avoid the term "trolling". And off course, there is the most-discussed case of the November 2015 Paris attacks where the only migration involved is between France and Belgium. Place Clichy (talk) 16:22, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

::::::In the case of the Killing of Susanna Feldmann the suspect clearly arrived during the migrant crisis. There is no need for the term crisis to mentioned, the relationship is made clear by the period of time of the crisis, and even by a link and reference in the article. If he had arrived before, there was no connection. But he did arrive during the crisis, so there is a factual connection. And just repeating a wrong statement about the November 2015 Paris attacks often enough doesn't make it right.--Greywin (talk) 12:51, 25 June 2018 (UTC)

  • Delete per the arguments above. Separate categories for crimes against migrants and crimes commited by migrants may be appropriate, but not a "related to" category. DexDor (talk) 20:44, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

:*Interesting. I had thought that a single category was appropriate. But, certainly, it would be just as easy to have 2 categories: :Category:Crimes committed against migrants arriving in the migrant crisis (2015–), and :Category:Crimes committed by migrants who arrived in the migrant crisis (2015–).E.M.Gregory (talk) 21:37, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

  • Delete - They are not exactly "related to the crisis". It's a bit dubious to assume that since an asylum seeker or any immigrant for that matter had something to do with it, it must be related to the crisis. The Ninja5 Empire (Talk) 09:09, 20 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Rename to :Category:Misconduct connected to the European migrant crisis. The use of "misconduct" instead of "crimes" eliminates the assertion of guilt, as misconduct doesn't have to be illegal, just morally wrong. Second, the use of "connected" instead of "related" changes the inclusion standard from Wikipedia asserting that the incident is related to the crisis to the more NPOV standard of requiring WP:RS of people connecting it to the crisis (in other words, from "it is related to the crisis" to "it has been connected to the crisis"). Oppose flat-out deletion if the reason is solely due to "subjectivity".  — Mr. Guye (talk) (contribs)  20:28, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

::"Connected" has exactly the same problem as "related", meaning as it does essentially the same thing. Mangoe (talk) 20:32, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

  • Delete - The implication of including something in this category is that "if the migrant crisis hadn't happened, these crimes would not have occurred". That's an assertion that is unlikely to be reliable sourced because good reporters and serious social scientists tend to avoid such bold proclamations about developing history. [[User:Nblund |Nblund]] talk 14:31, 22 June 2018 (UTC)

    • :::er..., yes. if the victims and or perpetrators of these crimes had not arrived in Europe, these crimes would not have happened.E.M.Gregory (talk) 14:41, 22 June 2018 (UTC)

    ::::So can you find reliable sources that make that claim about the events listed in this subcategory? It sounds like you're conflating "the migrant crisis" with "all migration" - people migrated to Europe long before the crisis occurred. I think this would be a little like creating a subcategory called "tropical storms related to global warming" in which we include all tropical storms that occurred after the industrial revolution. Or creating a category called "events related to the birth of OJ Simpson" which would include Kato Kaelin's film career, USC's Rose Bowl Win in 1967, and the name recognition of the Hertz rental company. [[User:Nblund |Nblund]] talk 15:29, 22 June 2018 (UTC)

    :::::Incorrect. None of the articles now in the category are about migrants who arrived before 2015.E.M.Gregory (talk) 00:08, 16 July 2018 (UTC)

    • Well this still seems to me to be a useful subcategory of :Category:European migrant crisis, a category so vast that it needs many subcategories with subcategories of their own. I suppose that tall of the crimes now in this category cam be shifted back to :Category:European migrant crisis. I remind newcomers to this topic that it includes crimes committed both against and by migrants.E.M.Gregory (talk) 14:41, 22 June 2018 (UTC)
    • : No, actually most articles in this category do not belong either in :Category:European migrant crisis, if their alledged "relation" to the migrant crisis is so dim that it borders to the anecdotal, per our categorization rules and esp. WP:DEFINING. For instance, a Pegida mob burning down the Interior Ministry shouting slogans refering to the crisis, that would be linked to the migrant crisis. A foreigner stabbing their boy/girlfriend, or a Belgian national travelling to the Middle-East and coming back, that would not be related to the migrant crisis in a defining way. Please note that the submission is for deletion of the category, not merge into European migrant crisis.
    • : By the way, is it the fourth time you voiced your opinion in this discussion at the first level of indentation? I kindly warn the closer that this may give the impression of several votes while there is really only one. Place Clichy (talk) 16:19, 22 June 2018 (UTC)
    • Keep - the nomination is defective. The nomination claims «some of these are 'alleged' crimes - plots etc that never went to court» But this is incorrect! Crime "is an unlawful act punishable by a state or other authority." Go ahead, click on that link. A crime is a crime whether punished or not. The nominator must have confused the distinction we make on Wikipedia between 'suspect' (before a conviction) and 'perpetrator' (after a conviction). Confusion on the part of the nominator is no grounds for deletion.
      Next the nom claims "any relationship to the 'European migrant crisis' is often tenuous" But if you look at the list of articles, there is nothing tenuous. All articles included are clearly linked to the European migrant crisis. If anyone questions any single one, which of course should be questioned, that's what the TP at the individual article is for.
      Finally, the nomination claims crimes by or against "a specific demographic group" is just not done. Just how wrong can the nomination be? Must have missed :Category:Massacres by First Nations or :Category:Caste-related violence in India? If there isn't a three-strikes and you are out for a nomination, maybe there ought to be.
      The bottom line is that the nomination for deletion is a transparent case of WP:JUSTDONTLIKEIT. Oh, by the way, I see nothing wrong with moving the page to :Category:Crimes related to the European migrant crisis (2015–). Specificity is good. XavierItzm (talk) 13:30, 23 June 2018 (UTC)

    ::A plot is not a crime - it is at best an allegation of intention to commit a crime. Unless it goes to court, no crime has verifiably occurred. An unsolved murder IS a crime. But that is not the main argument. The main argument is that in almost none of these cases is the migrant crisis - or its relationship to the crime - explored AT ALL. Therefore it is not in any sense a defining feature of the crime - except in the most limited sense that one or more of those involved were - or had been in the past - migrants. I imagine if I go to the 'Caste related violence' category, I would (or should) find that caste was a defining feature of these events (not simply acts of violence (probably?) committed by untouchables). Nobody has yet come up with a category realistically comparable to this one which has all the inherent subjectivity and invitation to PoV-ishness that :Category:Frauds related to people who attend synagogues would have. There is a very thinly veiled agenda behind this category. Pincrete (talk) 19:45, 24 June 2018 (UTC)

    :::As thinly veiled as the agenda of those who want to delete it? Everything's perfect, no crimes at all - brave new world? The migrant crisis is an important piece of the puzzle in many cases. In the case of the Murder of Maria Ladenburger for example, the perp would probably have stayed in Greece, when the crisis didn't occur, he was known to the police there and it was much harder for him to escape them. So it was a decisive chance for him to come to Germany and commit another crime without being checked at all. Thus this is a defining feature of this and many other crimes. --Greywin (talk) 12:40, 25 June 2018 (UTC)

    ::::[https://www.politico.eu/article/germany-crime-rate-lowest-since-1992/ Germany has just announced that its crime figures for 2017 were the lowest for 25 years!] - If I tried to deduce from this statistic that recent migrants had improved and lowered crime figures - everyone would quite rightly think me bonkers - you cannot extrapolate a relationship based on a single year's figures with innumerable other variables. Yet from a handful of largely unconnected incidents across Europe - an argument is here being made that a relationship exists between crime and migration. There probably are relationships - it would be foolish to pretend that the movement of large numbers of people had no effects - and there is possibly a good article to be written somewhere on that subject - based on good research and answering all kinds of questions, whether there were increases in particular kinds of crime, whether crimes against migrants outnumbered crimes done by etc. This category isn't even attempting that. It simply presumes a relationship without ever supplying sourced, balanced info or a master article exploring what that relationship could be. Pincrete (talk) 21:24, 25 June 2018 (UTC)

    :::::The German crime rate sank mainly because there was success of the police special commissions against a wave of burglaries and at the same time the main wave of the migrant crisis was over, so there were significantly less crimes against immigration laws. But other figures were rising (murder, sexual crimes) and on all-time highs, as bodily injuries. In addition, a study in Lower Saxony proved, that the recent migrant crisis had a significant impact on those figures. [http://www.deutschlandfunk.de/niedersachsen-bestimmte-fluechtlingsgruppen-laut-studie.1773.de.html?dram:article_id=407337][https://www.n-tv.de/politik/Ist-Deutschland-wirklich-sicherer-geworden-article20424789.html] --Greywin (talk) 18:09, 26 June 2018 (UTC)

    • Delete The only purpose of this category is seemingly to make a not-so-subtle point. To see what this point is, consider a category named "Crimes committed by street sweepers". As one can imagine, street sweepers around the world, being numbered in millions, commit a fair deal of crimes, but by and large this is not because they are street sweepers. Without street sweepers, the category would have obviously been empty, and these crimes would not have occurred. Or, rather, many of them might would have occurred, only they wouldn't be called that way. Had these migrants stayed in their respective countries, many of these crimes would likely happen anyway, but not in Europe, so there would be no problem, and thus no need for this category. I'm stretching the analogy a bit, but essentially that's what it is. GregorB (talk) 11:22, 25 June 2018 (UTC)

    ::You're missing the point. The category isn't named "Crimes committed by migrants". So it's meaningless how migrants contribute to the number of crimes, for this category. When perps of a terror attack use the crisis to get into the country (as happened ahead of the Paris attacks), there is a clear and undeniable relationship to the crisis, because it was successfully used by them. And leaving the crimes out - wouldn't be the so-called "crisis" a perfect example of a wonderful thing, where no criticism is allowed (as some might want to suggest)? Mentioning also negative consequences of events is an important feature of Wikipedia! So I think this category - or leaving the crimes in the "European migrant crisis" category - is very useful to contribute to the full picture of relations. --Greywin (talk) 12:40, 25 June 2018 (UTC)

    :::It is you who is missing the point. By now, we are all familiar with your personal prejudices and we have heard enough of them. Unless you have something new to say, I suggest you avoid repeating yourself. Deb (talk) 11:18, 26 June 2018 (UTC)

    :::: :) --Greywin (talk) 18:09, 26 June 2018 (UTC)

    • Note that contrary to arguments by several of the editors advocating deletion assert that there is little connection between these crimes and the migrant crisis. In fact, the articles in this category are like the 2017 Kandel stabbing attack (a migrant who had lied about his age and had been been denied asylum murdered his 15-year-old girlfriend,) and the 2015 German refugee attack (oops, proper link is 2015 German refugee attack plot]],) (a foiled neo-Nazi plot to blow up a refugee center. They are, in other worlds, crimes that are part of the migrant crisis, and that are notable, that is, they drew widespread attention, because of the intense public focus on the migrant crisis.E.M.Gregory (talk) 00:06, 16 July 2018 (UTC)

    ::The 1st article you refer to is well categorized by :Category:Stabbing attacks in 2017, :Category:2017 crimes in Germany etc. The 2nd is a redlink. DexDor (talk) 05:44, 16 July 2018 (UTC)

    :::Oops. Proper link is 2015 German refugee attack plot. Note that the fact that WP:OTHERSTUFF, i.e. other categories exist is not a reason to eliminate this useful category. Moreover, assertions made above that the articles in this category, "are not exactly 'related to the crisis'" are spurious. The category is filled with articles such as the 2017 Medborgarplatsen stabbing, Arson attacks on asylum centres in Sweden, Killing of Susanna Feldmann, and the 2016 Chemnitz terrorism plot in which the refugee crisis is central to the crime. And do note that, contrary to assertions made by editors arguing for deletion, plotting to blow a refugee center, or an airport, is indeed a crime for which the plotters can be arrested, indicted, tried and sentenced. E.M.Gregory (talk) 19:00, 16 July 2018 (UTC)

    ::::Re: "in which the refugee crisis is central to the crime", except that many of the articles do not even mention the refugee crisis anywhere. The German attack plot article which you link to says that "The neo-Nazi group, which consisted of 11 men and two women, had been monitored by police for over a year" ie they were plotting this attack a year before the refugee crisis even started - so it fails even the SYNTH test which is applied elsewhere that any crime involving refugees/asylum seekers/migrants that occurred post-2015, is inherently related to the migrant crisis. In other articles there is mention of the crisis in the article - though not in the source used AFAI can see, I don't speak Swedish, but I am not able to find any reference to the crisis in the sources used for 2017 Medborgarplatsen stabbing, the sources supports a 2014 arrival ('three years previous to the crime' - again before the beginning of the crisis). If the text "during the European migrant crisis", were being used simply to establish context, I wouldn't mind, but it isn't, it is being used to link a crime and a category to the migrant crisis which even the sources do not endorse. Regarding the most notorious event in this category, the Paris attacks. A French official says that some of the peripheral figures in this attack may have taken advantage of the crisis to slip in under the radar. We don't do demographic profiling of crimes unless the group attacking, or attacked, is clearly a defining feature of the crime - however, if we did, the principal defining feature demographically of the Paris attackers was that they were native European citizens!

    ::::Finally, I DONT LIKE IT is sometimes a valid argument, WP:IAR and all that. The failure to objectively identify in what sense any of these events are linked to the crisis (beyond the presence or arrival of one or more of the migrants in Europe post-2015) is itself a sufficient reason for deletion, but even if it were not, there are reasons why we don't have :Category:Racist murders which would not have happened if the victim had just stayed with his own kind or :Category:Rapes that would not have happened if the girl had not gone to the party against her mother's advice. This category seems to me to be based on WP:OR and SYNTH - and exists as a magnet for PoV pushing. Pincrete (talk) 10:11, 18 July 2018 (UTC)

    Note [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Requests_for_closure&diff=850859327&oldid=850695106 Request for Admin close posted by me] as there seem to be no 'new voices'. Pincrete (talk) 12:30, 18 July 2018 (UTC)

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    :The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

== Category:Massachusetts Registered Historic Place stubs ==

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: delete and upmerge templates. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:10, 26 June 2018 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting {{Lc|Berkshire County, Massachusetts Registered Historic Place stubs}}

:* Propose deleting {{Lc|Hampden County, Massachusetts Registered Historic Place stubs}}

:* Propose deleting {{Lc|Hampshire County, Massachusetts Registered Historic Place stubs}}

:Nominator's rationale: A group of dedicated editors have raised all previously tagged articles to at least start level. Categories empty. Propose deleting categories. Keep templates, but upmerge to {{cl|Massachusetts Registered Historic Place stubs}}. Dawynn (talk) 12:59, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

  • support per nom. Personally, I would delete the templates too, but that's just me. Mangoe (talk) 20:29, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

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== Category: Marine fauna of Australia ==

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: keep without objection to creating the proposed target and populating it manually. (non-admin closure) Marcocapelle (talk) 05:14, 26 June 2018 (UTC)

:* Propose renaming :Category:Marine fauna of Australia to :Category:Marine fish of Australia

:Nominator's rationale: The category exclusively contains fish ; a parent category "Marine fauna of Australia" can later be added, once other daughter categories are created (e.g. "*marine ?* Crustaceans of Australia" etc.). --Couiros22 (talk) 12:47, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

::Wouldn't it just be easier to rename all, then move the one or two non-fish entries back to a new "Marine fauna of Australia" cat. ? --Couiros22 (talk) 15:58, 20 June 2018 (UTC)

:::That may be the best way of implementing the change. Peterkingiron (talk) 17:10, 20 June 2018 (UTC)

:::No. Renaming, waiting for the bot to recategorize the articles, fixing those that are then mis-categorized, turning the redirects back into categories and then updating the category structure is more complex than doing it properly (create the new categories and move articles manually so that at each step the category structure is still correct). DexDor (talk) 19:06, 20 June 2018 (UTC)

::::... It may be slightly more complex, but it would be much faster and less tedious than moving the hundreds of articles manually (!) --Couiros22 (talk) 19:56, 20 June 2018 (UTC)

:::::Hundreds? Only 18 pages are (currently) immediately below this category. DexDor (talk) 19:28, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

::::::18 ? including the sub-categories there would indeed be hundreds --Couiros22 (talk) 13:54, 22 June 2018 (UTC)

:::::::This CFD is about renaming one category. DexDor (talk) 19:18, 25 June 2018 (UTC)

  • We need both -- a new one for fish and the present one as a parent for it, with (perhaps) a marine mammals child. Peterkingiron (talk) 17:10, 20 June 2018 (UTC)

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== Category:Ludvík Svoboda ==

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: delete (non-admin closure). Marcocapelle (talk) 05:16, 26 June 2018 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting {{Lc|Ludvík Svoboda}}

:Nominator's rationale: This category does not seem to pass WP:OCEPON criteria. The category of this general and President of Czechoslovakia currently contains articles relative to military units, battles, "elections" where he was an actor, and a film about a battle he fought (not about him). None of these are specific to him. Place Clichy (talk) 09:41, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

  • Delete per OCEPON. The topics filed here are not defined by him just because he happened to be involved in them. Bearcat (talk) 21:30, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

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== Category:Train operating companies ==

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: Rename to :Category:Train operating companies in the United Kingdom. Timrollpickering 11:36, 8 July 2018 (UTC)

:* Propose renaming :Category:Train operating companies to :Category:Train operating companies in Great Britain

:Nominator's rationale: Make the scope clearer. All entries are in the UK. Rathfelder (talk) 08:54, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

  • Rename but to :Category:Train operating companies in the United Kingdom as it includes NI Railways. Oculi (talk) 09:15, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Rename to {{C|Train operating companies in the United Kingdom}}, to avoid confusion with {{C|Railway companies}}. The category is already a subcat of {{C|Post-privatisation British railway companies}}, so it is indeed specific to the UK. Place Clichy (talk) 10:26, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Rename to :Category:Train operating companies in the United Kingdom. Izzat Kutebar (talk) 12:56, 19 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Quite happy with :Category:Train operating companies in the United Kingdom. I just didnt see any from NI. Rathfelder (talk) 14:47, 19 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Rename to {{cl|Train operating companies of the United Kingdom}} per its higher parent categories {{cl|Companies of Europe}} → {{cl|Companies of the United Kingdom}} → {{cl|Companies of the United Kingdom by industry}} → {{cl|Transport companies of the United Kingdom}} → {{cl|Railway companies of the United Kingdom}} (→ {{cl|Post-privatisation British railway companies}}). --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 20:17, 19 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Rename but to UK target. There is one operator in Scotland and one in NI, so that a split by the 4 home nations is not useful. Peterkingiron (talk) 17:12, 20 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Rename as UK, but redirect the existing category to {{cl|Railway companies}} rather than retaining it as a redirect to the newly-renamed UK category. While it's true that UK train operators are the only things that have actually been filed here as things stand right now, this is not a uniquely British concept — there are "train operating companies" in other countries as well, with the only real difference being the way in which other countries' categories for the same thing might have been named. Bearcat (talk) 21:34, 21 June 2018 (UTC)
  • I did wonder about that. Not sure I understand the distinction between Railway companies and Train Operating companies. Rathfelder (talk) 22:17, 21 June 2018 (UTC)
  • :{{replyto|Rathfelder}} Railway companies own tracks and infrastructure, they may own trains as well (but not necessarily). Train operating companies own no tracks; they have a fleet of trains which may be owned or leased (or a combination). They provide the staff required to move these trains from A to B according to published timetables. Not being track owning companies, they pay a toll, track access charge, or other fee to the railway company which owns the track. Consider passenger trains in the USA: Amtrak is the train operating company, and an organisation like the Union Pacific Railroad is the railway company. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 17:06, 22 June 2018 (UTC)
  • ::Amtrak seems to be categorised among the railroads.Rathfelder (talk) 19:21, 22 June 2018 (UTC)
  • : Yeah, Redrose got the distinction correct in principle, but you're also right that for the most part (with this obvious exception) we haven't actually been using the category system to maintain the distinction so far. So another alternative might be to build out {{cl|Train operating companies}} as a tree in its own right by populating and maybe subcatting it with things like Amtrak and Canada's VIA Rail. Bearcat (talk) 15:34, 24 June 2018 (UTC)

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==Category:Third-person open world games==

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: delete (non-admin closure). Marcocapelle (talk) 05:21, 26 June 2018 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting :Category:Third-person open world games

:Nominator's rationale: This category just seems to be pointless. We’ve already got a Category for all Open world games, so why make a specific one just for the third person games. Plus, what about the games that can be played in both first and third person? Dohvahkiin (talk) 11:55, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

::*Comment – {{re|Dohvahkiin}} As for games that can be played in both first-person and third-person, like Grand Theft Auto V, both :Category:First-person open world games and :Category:Third-person open world games are used, similar to how both :Category:First-person shooters and :Category:Third-person shooters are used in the same article. Interqwark talk contribs 21:49, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

:::*CommentI believe this applies in this case: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Overcategorization Dohvahkiin (talk) 23:48, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

  • Delete - Open world is open world. Whether the game is first-person or third-person is not important since open world is a gameplay concept while FP/TP are a video game genre. They are not related to each other at all. This is an unnecessary subcategory of the larger :Category:Open world video games. AdrianGamer (talk) 13:13, 19 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Delete - Pointless categories, we already have categories that covers Open World, FP and TP games. TheDeviantPro (talk) 14:29, 19 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Delete Don't see any reason to relate perspective/viewpoint to the use of open world in video games. --The1337gamer (talk) 22:26, 25 June 2018 (UTC)

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