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Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2018 November 1

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= November 1 =

== Men's and Women's Winter Olympics ==

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: rename. Good Ol’factory (talk) 00:29, 9 November 2018 (UTC)

::Followup: Per agreement of all participants and the closer at User talk:BrownHairedGirl#Category:Men’s_in_freestyle_skiing_at_the_2014_Winter_Olympics ([https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:BrownHairedGirl&oldid=868184742#Category:Men%E2%80%99s_in_freestyle_skiing_at_the_2014_Winter_Olympics permalink]), the following 10 categories were renamed again to correct my error in the nomination:

{{collapse top|10 categories}}

:* :Category:Men's in short track speed skating at the 2006 Winter Olympics to :Category:Men's short track speed skating at the 2006 Winter Olympics

:* :Category:Men's in short track speed skating at the 2010 Winter Olympics to :Category:Men's short track speed skating at the 2010 Winter Olympics

:* :Category:Men's in short track speed skating at the 2014 Winter Olympics to :Category:Men's short track speed skating at the 2014 Winter Olympics

:* :Category:Men's in short track speed skating at the 2018 Winter Olympics to :Category:Men's short track speed skating at the 2018 Winter Olympics

:* :Category:Men’s in freestyle skiing at the 2014 Winter Olympics to :Category:Men's freestyle skiing at the 2014 Winter Olympics

:* :Category:Men’s in freestyle skiing at the 2018 Winter Olympics to :Category:Men's freestyle skiing at the 2018 Winter Olympics

:* :Category:Women's in short track speed skating at the 2006 Winter Olympics to :Category:Women's short track speed skating at the 2006 Winter Olympics

:* :Category:Women's in short track speed skating at the 2010 Winter Olympics to :Category:Women's short track speed skating at the 2010 Winter Olympics

:* :Category:Women's in short track speed skating at the 2014 Winter Olympics to :Category:Women's short track speed skating at the 2014 Winter Olympics

:* :Category:Women’s in short track speed skating at the 2018 Winter Olympics to :Category:Women's short track speed skating at the 2018 Winter Olympics

{{collapse bottom}}

::--BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 14:18, 10 November 2018 (UTC)

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{{collapse top|61 more removal of "events" or "events in"}}

{{collapse bottom}}

:Nominator's rationale. Remove the superfluous word "events" or the phrase "events in" from these categories. The parent categories of events-by-sport are all just called {{Mono|" at the YYYY Winter Olympics"}} (e.g. :Category:Alpine skiing at the 2002 Winter Olympics), and there is no need to add the word "events" when subcategorising by sex — it conveys no extra information and resolves no ambiguity.

:Some are gendered categories are already named this way, e.g. :Category:Women's rowing at the 2016 Summer Olympics and the 10 other subcats of :Category:Women's rowing at the Summer Olympics, or :Category:Women's ice hockey at the Winter Olympics/:Category:Men's ice hockey at the Winter Olympics. This nomination would rename the others to match.

:For anyone wondering about the absence of Summer Olympics categories from this proposal: none of the by-sport subcats of :Category:Women's events at the Summer Olympics uses the word "events".

:Note that the status quo would not be a god option. The list above includes two different formats: {{Mono|" events at the YYYY"}} and {{Mono|" events in at the YYYY"}}. Some cats are already named {{Mono|" at the YYYY"}}, so we currently have three different formats.

:(Aside to anyone questioning the utility of these categories: these subcats by sex capture a WP:DEFINING characteristic of the events. Where men and women complete separately, categorisation on that basis is explicitly permitted by WP:Cat gender.) --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 21:54, 1 November 2018 (UTC)

  • Support per nom - makes sense and brings the Winter categories in line with the Summer ones. Lugnuts Fire Walk with Me 08:31, 2 November 2018 (UTC)
  • Support - makes sense. Nimrodbr (talk) 09:08, 2 November 2018 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

== Category:Hanson (band) members ==

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: delete. Good Ol’factory (talk) 00:27, 9 November 2018 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting {{Lc|Hanson (band) members}}

:Nominator's rationale: Per consensus/convention that "categories should not be created when only one [band] member has an article." StarcheerspeaksnewslostwarsTalk to me 19:47, 1 November 2018 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

== Television templates by genre ==

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: Merge. Timrollpickering 16:50, 8 November 2018 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:Animated series templates, :Category:Children's television templates, :Category:Comedy television templates, :Category:Drama television templates, :Category:Reality television series templates, :Category:Soap opera templates, :Category:Sitcom templates, :Category:Sketch comedy series templates, and :Category:Variety television series templates to :Category:Television program templates

:Nominator's rationale: Genre is certainly a relevant categorization for television program articles. However, categorizing their templates by genre is of doubtful utility, in the same way that categorizing these templates by any of the other bases for categorizing their articles (e.g., by year or country of origin) would be. But, lacking is a parent category for television program templates, and this proposes to create one by merging these several genre categories. --Bsherr (talk) 15:26, 1 November 2018 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

== Category:Convicted book-thieves ==

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: Rename. Timrollpickering 16:48, 8 November 2018 (UTC)

:* Propose renaming :Category:Convicted book-thieves to :Category:People convicted of book theft

:Nominator's rationale: To be consistent with all the other "[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:PrefixIndex?prefix=People+convicted+of&namespace=14 People convicted of . . .]" categories. UnitedStatesian (talk) 14:33, 1 November 2018 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

== TV episodes by country and series ==

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: Delete. Timrollpickering 16:48, 8 November 2018 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting {{Lc|Chinese television episodes by series}}

:* Propose deleting {{Lc|Irish television episodes by series}}

:* Propose deleting {{Lc|Polish television episodes by series}}

:* Propose deleting {{Lc|Swiss television episodes by series}}

:Nominator's rationale: These are unnecessary for navigation, as they only hold a sub-cat for lists, and the parent :Category:Television episodes by country and series now directly holds :Category:Lists of television series episodes by country. The sub-cats have other appropriate parents, so no merging is needed. – Fayenatic London 10:34, 1 November 2018 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

== Category:Holy orders in the Catholic Church ==

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: no consensus. There was strong opposition to :Category:Clerical state in the Catholic Church and to merging with :Category:Catholic clergy, but :Category:Major orders in the Catholic Church seemed to get traction, though whether it should replace this category or be its parent was unresolved. I recommend a follow-up nomination with a new proposal and without the rejected proposals muddying the waters. -- Black Falcon (talk) 05:49, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

:* Propose renaming :Category:Holy orders in the Catholic Church to :Category:Clerical state in the Catholic Church

:Nominator's rationale: rename, apart from the eponymous article the category has a much broader content than just Holy orders. Clerical state would be a better term, per e.g. [http://www.intratext.com/IXT/ENG0017/_PY.HTM this source]. Marcocapelle (talk) 19:54, 17 October 2018 (UTC)

:* The alternative does not resolve the problem mentioned in the rationale. Marcocapelle (talk) 12:39, 26 October 2018 (UTC)

{{resize|91%|Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.}}

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, ℯxplicit 07:12, 1 November 2018 (UTC)

::* I still prefer my alternative. While it does not resolve the "problem" mentioned in the rationale, that can be solved by manually moving those things that are not Holy Orders. Laurel Lodged (talk) 10:59, 1 November 2018 (UTC)

  • Oppose "Clerical state" is highly ambiguous, and not a common term, surely? Johnbod (talk) 14:42, 1 November 2018 (UTC)

:* {{ping|Johnbod}} The term is mostly used as part of the phrase "loss of clerical state" ([https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/holy_see_confirms_loss_of_clerical_state_for_former_bishop_fernando_lugo e.g.]). Please clarify why it is ambiguous or not common. Do you have a better suggestion for the category (given the fact that the current category content is broader than just about Holy orders)? Marcocapelle (talk) 21:12, 4 November 2018 (UTC)

::Well, exactly - you've answered the "not common" part yourself! "Clerical state" may be the correct technical term, but will suggest Vatican City, Mt Athos, or pre-invasion Tibet to many. A better name is needed. Johnbod (talk) 00:39, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

::* An alternative might be to merge to :Category:Catholic clergy. But that category is (until now) a set category, while here we have topic articles. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:33, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

:::: I'd support that alternative. Chicbyaccident (talk) 21:54, 8 November 2018 (UTC)

:* Renaming to :Category:Major orders in the Catholic Church and merging :Category:Major orders into it is certainly an improvement as it broadens the scope of the category to not just the sacrament of holy orders. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:10, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

:::Support. Seems to make sense. Chicbyaccident (talk) 16:43, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

::::I would not oppose the creation of a parent category like :Category:Major orders in the Catholic Church which would be a parent of the current nominated category. I would oppose a straight re-name though as Holy Orders is sufficiently defining to merit its own category. Laurel Lodged (talk) 20:21, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

== Category:Catholic Church offices ==

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: Rename to :Category:Catholic ecclesiastical titles without prejudice to a broader nomination of the tree. After long debate this has the most local consensus. Timrollpickering 21:51, 3 December 2018 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:Catholic Church offices to :Category:Catholic Church organisation

:Nominator's rationale: Pretty much identical scope? For any entry that cannot be dealt with as inside an identical scope should probably rather be subcategorised somewhere else? Chicbyaccident (talk) 07:38, 8 October 2018 (UTC)

::* I wouldn't object to :Category:Catholic ecclesiastical titles, but keeping the category name at offices does not harm either. I left :Category:Holy orders in the Catholic Church‎ here as a subcategory but I do wonder what it is really meant for. With the current content, it is not quite about the topic holy orders (apart from the eponymous article). Marcocapelle (talk) 13:04, 13 October 2018 (UTC)

:::: Not sure either. It is rather unclear. That's why I think this category merits some reconsidering. Chicbyaccident (talk) 13:30, 13 October 2018 (UTC)

{{resize|91%|Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.}}

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, ℯxplicit 03:54, 17 October 2018 (UTC)

::To be clear, as the nominator, I'd support that as second best option. Chicbyaccident (talk) 14:15, 3 November 2018 (UTC)

{{wikt|office|religious|ordinary}}

  • Comment Please take care when choosing a category name to use words that are unambiguous to the lay reader. Be aware that certain terms which tend to mean one thing in modern, colloquial English may have a specialized meaning in the context of Catholic doctrine or administration. Some of these are known well enough outside Catholic circles, others less so. Bishop, priest, or deacon might be a position or an office to you and me, but they are (holy) orders in this context. Conversely, office can be something else. Other seemingly unambiguous terms like congregation, ordinary, or religious can have specialized meanings in a Catholic context which differ sufficiently from the more generalized sense as to permit confusion. So when choosing a name for a category, as far as possible terms should be chosen which will not confuse the general reader. Mathglot (talk) 21:11, 17 October 2018 (UTC)

:* {{ping|Mathglot}} thank you for your advice. Which name would you recommend in this particular case? Marcocapelle (talk) 06:00, 18 October 2018 (UTC)

{{resize|91%|Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.}}

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, ℯxplicit 07:12, 1 November 2018 (UTC)

:* This category is about the Catholic Church, overarching the Latin Church and the Eastern Catholic Churches. Marcocapelle (talk) 15:21, 4 November 2018 (UTC)

::* {{ping|Black Falcon}} Good luck with closing this discussion. - just a friendly reminder :-) Marcocapelle (talk) 12:07, 2 December 2018 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.