Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2018 November 28

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: merge. (non-admin closure) feminist (talk) 17:06, 6 December 2018 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:Fictional characters of the Postal Service to :Category:Fictional postal workers

:Nominator's rationale: Only two article in the category. JDDJS (talk) 21:49, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

• Support merge no reason for a separate category --DannyS712 (talk) 08:07, 29 November 2018 (UTC)
• Support merge I think the intent was for this category to have fictional employees of the United States Postal Service, but that's unnecessary. power~enwiki (π, ν) 19:52, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: Rename. Timrollpickering 10:42, 7 December 2018 (UTC)

:* Propose renaming :Category:Fictional characters of the Department of Homeland Security to :Category:Fictional Department of Homeland Security personnel

:* Propose renaming :Category:Fictional characters of the Secret Service to :Category:Fictional Secret Service personnel

:* Propose renaming :Category:Fictional characters of the Drug Enforcement Administration to :Category:Fictional Drug Enforcement Administration personnel

:* Propose renaming :Category:Fictional characters of the Marshals Service to :Category:Fictional Marshals Service personnel

:* Propose renaming :Category:Fictional characters of Office of Strategic Services to :Category:Fictional Office of Strategic Services personnel

:* Propose renaming :Category:Fictional characters of the National Security Agency to :Category:Fictional National Security Agency personnel

:* Propose renaming :Category:Fictional characters of the Federal Bureau of Investigation to :Category:Fictional Federal Bureau of Investigation personnel

:Nominator's rationale: Current title is awkward and unclear. You can't be a "character of the FBI/NSA" JDDJS (talk) 21:09, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

• Support Shorter title and clearer scope. Dimadick (talk) 21:15, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: no consensus. There was not enough discussion to form a consensus on the merits of this (type of) category, but any subsequent nomination should take into account the existence of similar categories for other countries. That said, there does appear to be significant overlap between :Category:Place names and :Category:Toponymy as well as :Category:Lists of populated places. -- Black Falcon ^(talk) 22:46, 16 December 2018 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting {{Lc|Names of places in Pakistan}}

:Nominator's rationale: Weird duplicate of :Category:Geography of Pakistan —swpb^{T go beyond} 19:46, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

::Dear swpb, I have created subject category after seeing :Category:Names of places in India. :Category:Geography of India also here. Geography is very vast term.--Ameen Akbar (talk) 20:19, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

::: Further you should [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?search=Category%3ANames+of+places+in&title=Special%3ASearch&go=Go&fulltext=1 Click Here] to see categories for different countries.--Ameen Akbar (talk) 20:27, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

• Given the content of the category and all of its siblings, it may be useful to rename all of them into "Category:Lists of places in ...". But that will be for another day. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:33, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: merge. (non-admin closure) feminist (talk) 16:59, 6 December 2018 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:Radioactive waste repositories in France to :Category:Radioactive waste repositories

:Nominator's rationale: A category of repositories in France, but only has 1 page. Should be merged into the main category of repositories. This is the only subcategory of repositories (no other countries have individual categories), but is not needed. DannyS712 (talk) 18:32, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

• Support- seems a sensible suggestion. Reyk _YO! 10:02, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: Delete. Timrollpickering 10:45, 7 December 2018 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting {{Lc|Pig Newton, Inc.}}

:Nominator's rationale: Delete. Cat without a main article, effectively bypasses WP:OCEPON's prohibition on creating :Category:Louis C.K. UnitedStatesian (talk) 15:05, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

• Support deletion completely not needed, circumvention per unitedstatesian. --DannyS712 (talk) 18:34, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: No consensus. Timrollpickering (Talk) 16:52, 13 December 2018 (UTC)

:Propose renaming:

:* :Category:People of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:People from the Ottoman Empire

{{collapse top|206 subcats of Category:People of the Ottoman Empire}}

:* :Category:13th-century people of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:13th-century people from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:14th-century people of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:14th-century people from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:14th-century poets of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:14th-century poets from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:14th-century women of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:14th-century women from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:14th-century women writers of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:14th-century women writers from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:14th-century writers of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:14th-century writers from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:15th-century artists of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:15th-century artists from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:15th-century people of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:15th-century people from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:15th-century physicians of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:15th-century physicians from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:15th-century poets of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:15th-century poets from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:15th-century women of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:15th-century women from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:15th-century women writers of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:15th-century women writers from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:15th-century writers of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:15th-century writers from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:16th-century artists of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:16th-century artists from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:16th-century businesspeople of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:16th-century businesspeople from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:16th-century people of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:16th-century people from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:16th-century physicians of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:16th-century physicians from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:16th-century poets of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:16th-century poets from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:16th-century women of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:16th-century women from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:16th-century women writers of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:16th-century women writers from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:16th-century writers of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:16th-century writers from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:17th-century artists of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:17th-century artists from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:17th-century businesspeople of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:17th-century businesspeople from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:17th-century people of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:17th-century people from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:17th-century physicians of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:17th-century physicians from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:17th-century poets of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:17th-century poets from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:17th-century women of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:17th-century women from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:17th-century writers of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:17th-century writers from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:18th-century artists of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:18th-century artists from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:18th-century businesspeople of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:18th-century businesspeople from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:18th-century painters of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:18th-century painters from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:18th-century people of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:18th-century people from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:18th-century physicians of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:18th-century physicians from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:18th-century poets of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:18th-century poets from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:18th-century women of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:18th-century women from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:18th-century women writers of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:18th-century women writers from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:18th-century writers of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:18th-century writers from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:19th-century actors of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:19th-century actors from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:19th-century actresses of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:19th-century actresses from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:19th-century artists of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:19th-century artists from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:19th-century businesspeople of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:19th-century businesspeople from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:19th-century male actors of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:19th-century male actors from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:19th-century painters of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:19th-century painters from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:19th-century people of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:19th-century people from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:19th-century physicians of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:19th-century physicians from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:19th-century poets of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:19th-century poets from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:19th-century women of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:19th-century women from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:19th-century women writers of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:19th-century women writers from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:19th-century writers of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:19th-century writers from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:20th-century actors of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:20th-century actors from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:20th-century actresses of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:20th-century actresses from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:20th-century artists of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:20th-century artists from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:20th-century painters of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:20th-century painters from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:20th-century people of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:20th-century people from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:20th-century physicians of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:20th-century physicians from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:20th-century poets of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:20th-century poets from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:20th-century women of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:20th-century women from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:20th-century women writers of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:20th-century women writers from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:20th-century writers of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:20th-century writers from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:Academics of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:Academics from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:Actors of the Ottoman Empire by century to :Category:Actors from the Ottoman Empire by century

:* :Category:Actors of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:Actors from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:Actresses of the Ottoman Empire by century to :Category:Actresses from the Ottoman Empire by century

:* :Category:Actresses of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:Actresses from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:Archaeologists of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:Archaeologists from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:Architects of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:Architects from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:Artists of the Ottoman Empire by century to :Category:Artists from the Ottoman Empire by century

:* :Category:Artists of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:Artists from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:Assassinated people of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:Assassinated people from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:Astrologers of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:Astrologers from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:Astronomers of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:Astronomers from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:Athletes of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:Athletes from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:Aviators of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:Aviators from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:Bankers of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:Bankers from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:Businesspeople of the Ottoman Empire by century to :Category:Businesspeople from the Ottoman Empire by century

:* :Category:Businesspeople of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:Businesspeople from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:Calligraphers of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:Calligraphers from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:Cartographers of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:Cartographers from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:Christian clergy of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:Christian clergy from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:Christians of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:Christians from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:Composers of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:Composers from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:Concubines of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:Concubines from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:Court painters of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:Court painters from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:Cyclists of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:Cyclists from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:Designers of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:Designers from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:Diplomats of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:Diplomats from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:Divan poets of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:Divan poets from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:Dramatists and playwrights of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:Dramatists and playwrights from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:Earth scientists of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:Earth scientists from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:Educators of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:Educators from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:Emigrants of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:Emigrants from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:Engineers of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:Engineers from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:Entertainers of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:Entertainers from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:Eunuchs of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:Eunuchs from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:Executed people of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:Executed people from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:Exiles of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:Exiles from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:Expatriates of the Ottoman Empire in South Africa to :Category:Expatriates from the Ottoman Empire in South Africa

:* :Category:Expatriates of the Ottoman Empire in the Russian Empire to :Category:Expatriates from the Ottoman Empire in the Russian Empire

:* :Category:Expatriates of the Ottoman Empire in the United States to :Category:Expatriates from the Ottoman Empire in the United States

:* :Category:Expatriates of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:Expatriates from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:Families of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:Families from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:Female singers of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:Female singers from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:Folklorists of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:Folklorists from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:Geographers of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:Geographers from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:Inventors of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:Inventors from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:Islamic religious leaders of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:Islamic religious leaders from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:Jews of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:Jews from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:Journalists of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:Journalists from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:Jurists of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:Jurists from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:Lawyers of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:Lawyers from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:Linguists of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:Linguists from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:Male actors of the Ottoman Empire by century to :Category:Male actors from the Ottoman Empire by century

:* :Category:Male actors of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:Male actors from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:Male poets of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:Male poets from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:Male stage actors of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:Male stage actors from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:Mathematicians of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:Mathematicians from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:Medieval people of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:Medieval people from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:Medieval physicians of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:Medieval physicians from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:Medieval women of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:Medieval women from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:Men of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:Men from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:Miniaturists of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:Miniaturists from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:Musicians of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:Musicians from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:Muslims of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:Muslims from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:Non-fiction writers of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:Non-fiction writers from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:Novelists of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:Novelists from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:Orientalists of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:Orientalists from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:Painters of the Ottoman Empire by century to :Category:Painters from the Ottoman Empire by century

:* :Category:Painters of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:Painters from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:People of the Ottoman Empire by century to :Category:People from the Ottoman Empire by century

:* :Category:People of the Ottoman Empire by ethnic or national origin to :Category:People from the Ottoman Empire by ethnic or national origin

:* :Category:People of the Ottoman Empire by ethnicity to :Category:People from the Ottoman Empire by ethnicity

:* :Category:People of the Ottoman Empire by occupation and century to :Category:People from the Ottoman Empire by occupation and century

:* :Category:People of the Ottoman Empire by occupation to :Category:People from the Ottoman Empire by occupation

:* :Category:People of the Ottoman Empire by religion to :Category:People from the Ottoman Empire by religion

:* :Category:People of the Ottoman Empire by war to :Category:People from the Ottoman Empire by war

:* :Category:People of the Ottoman Empire murdered abroad to :Category:People from the Ottoman Empire murdered abroad

:* :Category:People of the Ottoman Empire of Abkhazian descent to :Category:People from the Ottoman Empire of Abkhazian descent

:* :Category:People of the Ottoman Empire of Albanian descent to :Category:People from the Ottoman Empire of Albanian descent

:* :Category:People of the Ottoman Empire of American descent to :Category:People from the Ottoman Empire of American descent

:* :Category:People of the Ottoman Empire of Armenian descent to :Category:People from the Ottoman Empire of Armenian descent

:* :Category:People of the Ottoman Empire of Belgian descent to :Category:People from the Ottoman Empire of Belgian descent

:* :Category:People of the Ottoman Empire of Bosnian descent to :Category:People from the Ottoman Empire of Bosnian descent

:* :Category:People of the Ottoman Empire of Bulgarian descent to :Category:People from the Ottoman Empire of Bulgarian descent

:* :Category:People of the Ottoman Empire of Circassian descent to :Category:People from the Ottoman Empire of Circassian descent

:* :Category:People of the Ottoman Empire of Croatian descent to :Category:People from the Ottoman Empire of Croatian descent

:* :Category:People of the Ottoman Empire of English descent to :Category:People from the Ottoman Empire of English descent

:* :Category:People of the Ottoman Empire of French descent to :Category:People from the Ottoman Empire of French descent

:* :Category:People of the Ottoman Empire of Georgian descent to :Category:People from the Ottoman Empire of Georgian descent

:* :Category:People of the Ottoman Empire of German descent to :Category:People from the Ottoman Empire of German descent

:* :Category:People of the Ottoman Empire of Greek descent to :Category:People from the Ottoman Empire of Greek descent

:* :Category:People of the Ottoman Empire of Iranian descent to :Category:People from the Ottoman Empire of Iranian descent

:* :Category:People of the Ottoman Empire of Italian descent to :Category:People from the Ottoman Empire of Italian descent

:* :Category:People of the Ottoman Empire of Moroccan descent to :Category:People from the Ottoman Empire of Moroccan descent

:* :Category:People of the Ottoman Empire of Polish descent to :Category:People from the Ottoman Empire of Polish descent

:* :Category:People of the Ottoman Empire of Pomak descent to :Category:People from the Ottoman Empire of Pomak descent

:* :Category:People of the Ottoman Empire of Portuguese descent to :Category:People from the Ottoman Empire of Portuguese descent

:* :Category:People of the Ottoman Empire of Romanian descent to :Category:People from the Ottoman Empire of Romanian descent

:* :Category:People of the Ottoman Empire of Russian descent to :Category:People from the Ottoman Empire of Russian descent

:* :Category:People of the Ottoman Empire of Serbian descent to :Category:People from the Ottoman Empire of Serbian descent

:* :Category:People of the Ottoman Empire of Slovenian descent to :Category:People from the Ottoman Empire of Slovenian descent

:* :Category:People of the Ottoman Empire of Spanish descent to :Category:People from the Ottoman Empire of Spanish descent

:* :Category:People of the Ottoman Empire of Ukrainian descent to :Category:People from the Ottoman Empire of Ukrainian descent

:* :Category:People of the Ottoman Empire of Yemeni descent to :Category:People from the Ottoman Empire of Yemeni descent

:* :Category:People of the Ottoman Empire stubs to :Category:People from the Ottoman Empire stubs

:* :Category:People of the Ottoman Empire who died in prison custody to :Category:People from the Ottoman Empire who died in prison custody

:* :Category:Philosophers of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:Philosophers from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:Physicians of the Ottoman Empire by century to :Category:Physicians from the Ottoman Empire by century

:* :Category:Physicians of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:Physicians from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:Poets of the Ottoman Empire by century to :Category:Poets from the Ottoman Empire by century

:* :Category:Poets of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:Poets from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:Police officers of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:Police officers from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:Political people of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:Political people from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:Politicians of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:Politicians from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:Rabbis of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:Rabbis from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:Rebels of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:Rebels from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:Religious leaders of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:Religious leaders from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:Sailors of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:Sailors from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:Saints of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:Saints from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:Salon-holders of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:Salon-holders from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:Schoolteachers of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:Schoolteachers from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:Scientists of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:Scientists from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:Singers of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:Singers from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:Slaves of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:Slaves from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:Sociologists of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:Sociologists from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:Sportspeople of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:Sportspeople from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:Stage actors of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:Stage actors from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:Stage actresses of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:Stage actresses from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:Sufi saints of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:Sufi saints from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:Theatre directors of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:Theatre directors from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:Theatre people of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:Theatre people from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:War casualties of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:War casualties from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:Watercolourists of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:Watercolourists from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:Wikipedia categories named after people of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:Wikipedia categories named after people from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:Women of the Ottoman Empire by century to :Category:Women from the Ottoman Empire by century

:* :Category:Women of the Ottoman Empire by occupation to :Category:Women from the Ottoman Empire by occupation

:* :Category:Women of the Ottoman Empire in warfare to :Category:Women from the Ottoman Empire in warfare

:* :Category:Women of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:Women from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:Women poets of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:Women poets from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:Women writers of the Ottoman Empire by century to :Category:Women writers from the Ottoman Empire by century

:* :Category:Women writers of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:Women writers from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:Writers of the Ottoman Empire by century to :Category:Writers from the Ottoman Empire by century

:* :Category:Writers of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:Writers from the Ottoman Empire

{{collapse bottom}}

;Categories struck per discussion below

:*:Category:Prisoners and detainees of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:Prisoners and detainees from the Ottoman Empire

:* :Category:Field marshals of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:Field marshals from the Ottoman Empire

:Nominator's rationale. To avoid the ambiguous or misleading nature of many of the current titles.

:For example:

:* The title of :Category:Painters of the Ottoman Empire: did they cover the whole Empire in paint? Or just paint a few walls somewhere? Or create paintings? The intended meaning is actually "Painters from the Ottoman Empire", which is about the least expected interpretation of the category name.

:* The title of :Category:Architects of the Ottoman Empire: did they design the governing systems of the EMpire, or just its buildings? Umm, neither: they were just architects from the Ottoman Empire.

:* The title of :Category:Journalists of the Ottoman Empire describes people who reported on the Ottoman Empire, but the intended meaning is actually journalists from the Ottoman Empire, whose reporting may have nothing to do with the Empire or its territories.

:* The title of :Category:Academics of the Ottoman Empire describes scholars of any nationality whose field of study is the Ottoman Empire, but the intended meaning is actually academics from the Ottoman Empire, whatever their field of study.

:These titles were created at WP:Categories for discussion/Log/2017 September 13#Ottoman_people, where the obvious and well-justified concern was to avoid the problems caused by the previous titles which used "Ottoman" as a demonym, e.g. "Ottoman painters". However, the editors in that discussion do not appear to have given much scrutiny to the new titles, which were in a collapsed list.

:This list of renamings is also collapsed, but it would great if editors could spend a few minutes checking that the new names don't create any problems.

:I compiled this list by first building a list of all subcats of :Category:People of the Ottoman Empire, and keeping only those whose titles include of the Ottoman Empire. I then removed any titles which it seemed might correctly use "of". Most of these exclusions seemed to be either job titles or a description of holders a public office.

:The exclusions if are listed in a subpage of today's CFD page, at WP:Categories for discussion/Log/2018 November 28/More Ottoman people cats. If anyone spots more categories in the current list which need separate discussion, please just use to strike them out. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 06:12, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

:Note that this a followup a nom of only 3 categories lower down this page at #Category:Journalists of the Ottoman Empire. That nom was opened by @Good Ol’factory, who kindly offered to close it if a broader nom was made. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 06:12, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

• Rename per nom. The "from" works much better, especially for nationality/occupation categories. Thanks for this nomination! Good Ol’factory ^(talk) 06:43, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
• Comment, note that I have once nominated all "Ottoman people" categories to be renamed to "People of the Ottoman Empire" categories since "of" seemed to be the preferred preposition for cases like this (e.g. :Category:People of the Roman Empire). This does not count as an objection, it is merely for information. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:32, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
• @Marcocapelle I presume you are referring to WP:Categories for discussion/Log/2017 September 13#Ottoman_people, which I mentioned above. I can see why "Ottoman people" was a bad choice, but it's pity that there wasn't a bit more scrutiny of the consequences of adopting "of", and thereby moving :Category Ottoman painters to :Category:Painters of the Ottoman Empire. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 08:07, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
• Tagging. Categories all tagged, these edits[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions&offset=201811280755&dir=next&limit=210&contribs=user&target=BrownHairedGirl&namespace=14&tagfilter=&start=&end=]. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 08:01, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
• Pinging the participants in the CFD 2017 September 13 discussion: {{ping|Marcocapelle|Laurel Lodged|Hmains|Iazyges|Peterkingiron|Dimadick|p=}} ... plus the closer, {{yo|Explicit|p=}}. You may want to have your say here. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 08:16, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
• Support all except the Prisoners and detainees category. The nominator has misunderstood the meaning of the category. This is about prisoners of various backgrounds who were held captive in Ottoman prisons, not about Ottoman subjects/citizens. Dimadick (talk) 08:28, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
• Thanks, @Dimadick. I have struck that one.
  I caught over 50 of them, but I knew that more eyes would be needed. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 09:04, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
• Comment: I´d suggest another exception from the list, so to have it remain as it is, the category Field Marshals of the Ottoman Empire. The category is about those employed with said rank directly by the Ottoman Empire, and named so by the same. After the change to from it would mean those born there, regardless or employer, thus completely changing and excluding several holders of that rank within the category who were foreign-born. ...GELongstreet (talk) 13:19, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
• Thanks, @GELongstreet. You're absolutely right, so I have struck :Category:Field marshals of the Ottoman Empire.
• I am glad we have many eyes on this {{smiley}} --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 15:29, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose: a examination of the other subcats of :Category:People by former country indicates that "People of . . ." is by far more preferred to "People from . . . " and nominator has not laid out why the Ottoman Empire should be different. UnitedStatesian (talk) 15:26, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
• With respect, @UnitedStatesian, I think that my nomination sets out in a lot of detail why the "of" format doesn't work in this case.

::The category trees which use of "of" are mostly sparse, and therefore don't raise the problems encountered here.

::I note that the better-developed category trees for former countries don't use the "of" format, e.g. :Category:Soviet people, :Category:East German people, :Category:Czechoslovak people. If the "of" format had been tied in those cases, we would have the same problems as we have here. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 15:40, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

:::If so, I would propose :Category:Ottoman Empire people. UnitedStatesian (talk) 15:54, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

::::@UnitedStatesian, are you just throwing this out there off-the-cuff? Or did you start by examining the 200 categories in the nom, to see how they would work in the adjectival format?

:::We've been here before, with last year's CFD: a proposal which looked good at first glance, but which created some real horrors in the subcat. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 16:40, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

::::This is what I feared about a mass nomination. Users appear not to have taken the time to read through the nominated categories and recognized the inherent ambiguity in many of them – they are more concerned about a broad convention than clarity in the category names. Good Ol’factory ^(talk) 23:51, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

:::::So it seems, @Good Ol’factory. {{smiley|sad}}

:::::I do hope that @UnitedStatesian will take another look and reconsider, and also that {{yo|Laurel Lodged|p=}} will change their mind about defending :Category:Painters of the Ottoman Empire as the title of a category for people by national origin rater than by topic of painting. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 01:17, 30 November 2018 (UTC)

:::::::Comment Why would you assume that voters had not read the nomination? I "No" vote is not synonymous with ignorance. Do you credit editors with as little common sense as the Painters example assumes of readers in general? To Go'F's point about mass nominations, the solution seems to emerging from this healthy discussion: deal with troublesome cats differently while letting the remainder unchanged as they're grand. I do hope that I'll not have to witness another attempt to soft-brow-beat me into changing my vote again. Laurel Lodged (talk) 13:36, 30 November 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose They're grand as the are. Sits nicely with conventions for other empires. Only the most obtuse would interpret :Category:Painters of the Ottoman Empire to mean "people who covered the whole Empire in paint". Let's credit our readers with basic common sense. On a positive note, it is indeed encouraging to see BHG move away from the tyranny of demonyms. Down with that sort of thing I say. Laurel Lodged (talk) 22:04, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
• {{Yo|Laurel Lodged}} the most plausible reading of the title of :Category:Painters of the Ottoman Empire is "People who made paintings of the Ottoman Empire". That is not the intended meaning. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 23:56, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
• comment :Category:Prisoners and detainees of the Ottoman Empire may also have problems changing to 'from' since it includes an unknown number of articles on people not 'from the Empire' but who are/were held in custody 'by the Empire'. Compare to :Category:Prisoners and detainees by country and its subcats. Hmains (talk) 03:11, 29 November 2018 (UTC)
• {{yo|Hmains}} yes, you are right about that one. It was spotted by {{yo|Dimadick|p=}}, so I struck it yesterday morning in my reply[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2018_November_28&diff=871002360&oldid=871000047] to Dimadick. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 23:35, 29 November 2018 (UTC)
• I was just going by the tag that is still on the category Hmains (talk) 04:44, 30 November 2018 (UTC)
• Comment the parent category of the people/former country is :Category:People by former country and its subcategories are a wild mixture of 'of' and 'from' for no obvious reason. Is the Ottoman Empire the only one in need of this change? Hmains (talk) 04:58, 30 November 2018 (UTC)
• {{yo|Hmains}} there may be others which contain misleading titles like :Category:Painters of the Ottoman Empire or :Category:Academics of the Ottoman Empire. I haven't checked the others, tho since since few of the others are as populous or well-developed, there is lesser chance of these problems occurring.

::However, regardless of what we do with the others, please can you support fixing this one? "People from Foo" is widely-used format, and its use here would solve a real problem. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 07:24, 30 November 2018 (UTC)

• Reluctant oppose- although the " of the Ottoman Empire" stuff can give absurd results as BHG points out, I think this category should also be able to include people who made it big in the Ottoman Empire after emigrating there-- making them people of but not from the Ottoman Empire. Reyk _YO! 10:08, 30 November 2018 (UTC)
• Support renaming of :Category:Journalists of the Ottoman Empire, :Category:Architects of the Ottoman Empire, :Category:Painters of the Ottoman Empire and :Category:Academics of the Ottoman Empire to avoid ambiguity, per self-closed nomination further down this page. I'm neutral with respect to the remainder, since there will always remain a few special cases with "from" or a few special cases with "of" regardless of what we choose as the dominant form in general. Marcocapelle (talk) 14:39, 30 November 2018 (UTC)
• rename per nom The 'from' results read better and are not meaningfully wrong Hmains (talk) 20:17, 1 December 2018 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: keep. (non-admin closure) feminist (talk) 16:58, 6 December 2018 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:Wikipedia categories named after Brazilian politicians to :Category:Brazilian politicians

:Nominator's rationale: I don't see the usefulness of these separate categories about Wikipedia categories where a politician's category is placed in :Category:Wikipedia categories named after Brazilian politicians instead of simply placed :Category:Brazilian politicians or into another subcategory of Brazilian politicians. Other categories like this exist like :Category:Wikipedia categories named after Australian politicians instead of simply :Category:Australian politicians.

:Is it notable that there is a Wikipedia category about a subject so there is a separate category for Wikipedia categories? This could be a slippery slope! Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 04:53, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

• Keep This a hidden maintenance category which groups eponymous categories. It is part of an extensive series:

: :Category:Eponymous categories → :Category:Wikipedia categories named after people → :Category:Wikipedia categories named after people by occupation → :Category:Wikipedia categories named after politicians → :Category:Wikipedia categories named after Brazilian politicians.

:The nominator offers no reason for making this an exception to the rest of the huge tree of hidden categories under :Category:Eponymous categories (eponcats). Everything she says about this category could be applied to all the other eponcats.

:I'm inclined to suggest that @Liz should have done a more thorough job of WP:BEFORE. But I wonder: if Liz doesn't have view hidden categories enabled in her prefs, she would not have seen the hidden parent categs. Liz, I suggest that you go to Special:Preferences, switch to the "Appearance" tab, and go down to "Advanced options". Make sure that "Show hidden categories" is checked, then save. Now you should see the parents. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 06:28, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

• Comment, the concerns raised by nominator are valid concerns and they apply to the whole series. These categories are kind of ghettoized, while they serve no real maintenance purpose. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:42, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
• @Marcocapelle: if the whole series is a bad idea, then nominate the whole series. Or open an RFC on it. But there's no point in picking out one of many hundreds of cats and deleting it because of a characteristic which applies equally to the series.

::Substantively, I disagree with your assertion that "they serve no real maintenance purpose". I think you mean that you haven't yet used them for maintenance :)

::I have found that misuse of eponynmous categories plays havoc with the category tree, because some editors place whole cats in the eponcat rather than only the head article. This can have weird effects, placing an entire era of politics as part of the family of one politician. These tracking categories allowed me to unravel many such tangles. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 09:13, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

• Keep per the explanations of BrownHairedGirl. Dimadick (talk) 08:30, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
• Keep - if we look at say :Category:Wikipedia categories named after American politicians (a category of categories) and :Category:American politicians (a category of people) we will see immediately that they are completely different and that a merge would be absurd. I also agree with BHG's remarks about the dangers of placing whole categories in a parent category rather than the article. Oculi (talk) 12:02, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
• Keep Subcategories of :Category:Brazilian politicians contain articles on Brazilian politicians. The subcategories of :Category:Wikipedia categories named after Brazilian politicians contain articles related to a couple of British politicians. Actually, I think a better idea would be to delete the category and upmerge the contents to :Category:Wikipedia categories named after Brazilian people and :Category:Wikipedia categories named after politicians per WP:SMALLCAT. Starcheerspeaksnewslostwars^{Talk to me} 18:02, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: relist, see Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2018_December_16#Category:Photometry. (non-admin closure) Marcocapelle (talk) 09:26, 16 December 2018 (UTC)

:* Propose renaming :Category:Photometry to :Category:Photometry (optics)

:Nominator's rationale: An opposed speedy. Renaming is to bring category name in conformity with main article Photometry (optics). Good Ol’factory ^(talk) 02:45, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

{{collapse top|Copy of speedy discussion}}

• :Category:Photometry to :Category:Photometry (optics) – C2D per Photometry (optics) Good Ol’factory ^(talk) 22:03, 27 November 2018 (UTC)
• Hold on. I'm not sure I agree with this.--Srleffler (talk) 01:50, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
• Moved to a full discussion here. {{ping|Srleffler}} I would be interested in hearing why you may disagree. Good Ol’factory ^(talk) 02:49, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

{{collapse bottom}}

:*Oppose The category is currently broader than Photometry (optics) is. The different meanings of "Photometry" that are covered on the disambiguation page are all related to one another, and the category covers the broader topic. We should not rename the category simply to match the article title. If the category is to be renamed, it should be because there is a consensus to narrow the category's scope.--Srleffler (talk) 13:00, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: Merge. Timrollpickering 10:44, 7 December 2018 (UTC)

:Propose merging:

:*:Category:Tornadoes in Alabama by date to :Category:Tornadoes in Alabama

:*:Category:Tornadoes in Arkansas by date to :Category:Tornadoes in Arkansas

:*:Category:Tornadoes in Colorado by date to :Category:Tornadoes in Colorado

:*:Category:Tornadoes in Connecticut by date to :Category:Tornadoes in Connecticut

:*:Category:Tornadoes in Florida by date to :Category:Tornadoes in Florida

:*:Category:Tornadoes in Georgia (U.S. state) by date to :Category:Tornadoes in Georgia (U.S. state)

:*:Category:Tornadoes in Illinois by date to :Category:Tornadoes in Illinois

:*:Category:Tornadoes in Indiana by date to :Category:Tornadoes in Indiana

:*:Category:Tornadoes in Iowa by date to :Category:Tornadoes in Iowa

:*:Category:Tornadoes in Kansas by date to :Category:Tornadoes in Kansas

:*:Category:Tornadoes in Kentucky by date to :Category:Tornadoes in Kentucky

:*:Category:Tornadoes in Louisiana by date to :Category:Tornadoes in Louisiana

:*:Category:Tornadoes in Maryland by date to :Category:Tornadoes in Maryland

:*:Category:Tornadoes in Massachusetts by date to :Category:Tornadoes in Massachusetts

:*:Category:Tornadoes in Michigan by date to :Category:Tornadoes in Michigan

:*:Category:Tornadoes in Minnesota by date to :Category:Tornadoes in Minnesota

:*:Category:Tornadoes in Mississippi by date to :Category:Tornadoes in Mississippi

:*:Category:Tornadoes in Missouri by date to :Category:Tornadoes in Missouri

:*:Category:Tornadoes in Nebraska by date to :Category:Tornadoes in Nebraska

:*:Category:Tornadoes in New Hampshire by date to :Category:Tornadoes in New Hampshire

:*:Category:Tornadoes in New Jersey by date to :Category:Tornadoes in New Jersey

:*:Category:Tornadoes in New York (state) by date to :Category:Tornadoes in New York (state)

:*:Category:Tornadoes in North Carolina by date to :Category:Tornadoes in North Carolina

:*:Category:Tornadoes in North Dakota by date to :Category:Tornadoes in North Dakota

:*:Category:Tornadoes in Ohio by date to :Category:Tornadoes in Ohio

:*:Category:Tornadoes in Oklahoma by date to :Category:Tornadoes in Oklahoma

:*:Category:Tornadoes in Pennsylvania by date to :Category:Tornadoes in Pennsylvania

:*:Category:Tornadoes in South Carolina by date to :Category:Tornadoes in South Carolina

:*:Category:Tornadoes in South Dakota by date to :Category:Tornadoes in South Dakota

:*:Category:Tornadoes in Tennessee by date to :Category:Tornadoes in Tennessee

:*:Category:Tornadoes in Texas by date to :Category:Tornadoes in Texas

:*:Category:Tornadoes in Vermont by date to :Category:Tornadoes in Vermont

:*:Category:Tornadoes in Virginia by date to :Category:Tornadoes in Virginia

:*:Category:Tornadoes in West Virginia by date to :Category:Tornadoes in West Virginia

:*:Category:Tornadoes in Wisconsin by date to :Category:Tornadoes in Wisconsin

:*:Category:Tornadoes in Wyoming by date to :Category:Tornadoes in Wyoming

:Nominator's rationale. These are all pointless sub-categories. They currently serve no purpose; if subdivided they would fail WP:SMALLCAT.

:Their names indicate that they should be {{tl|container}} categories for a multi-dimensional set of by-date subcats: e.g. :Category:Tornadoes in Texas by date should contain :Category:Tornadoes in Texas by year//:Category:Tornadoes in Texas by decade//:Category:Tornadoes in Texas by century, with specific date-period subcats e.g. :Category:1979 Tornadoes in Texas. However, AFAICS none of them has any subcats at all . They are all just flat lists of tornadoes.

:None of the US states has enough tornado articles to support a by-year category structure (i.e. with an average of at least 5 tornadoes per year), and AFAICs v few could even sustain a by-decade structure.

:Even the global :Category:Tornadoes by year has only 504 articles in 105 by-year subcats, an average of less than 5 articles per year. Only 5 of those by-year cats exceed 20 articles, and the highest number in any cat is 31 :Category:Tornadoes of 2011.

:That is not enough to sustain a Tornadoes-by-country-by-year scheme, let a lone a Tornadoes-by-US-state-by-year scheme. Note that we don't have a :Category:Tornadoes in the United States by date or :Category:Tornadoes in the United States by year or :Category:Tornadoes in the United States by decade.

:I can see that the creator @Colonies Chris has put a many hours of work into building this manually (it would have taken only a few minutes with AWB), and I wouldn't want to WP:DEMOLISH an incomplete structure if it had a viable destination. However, I see no way that this can be developed into anything useful. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 00:51, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

• Support Pointless subcategorization. The dates do not affect these categories, as they are not part of a chronological sequence of events. Dimadick (talk) 08:35, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

I created these subcategories (and the corresponding :Category:Tornadoes in *** by location subcategories) in an attempt to resolve the problem I identified here - that the categories as they stood are pretty much useless to anyone. There are two ways a reader might want to search for a particular tornado event - by date or by location. The present category structure makes it only possible to index by only one of these, but doesn't prescribe which one; in practice this means that some are indexed by date (in various incompatible and incomparable formats), some by location, and some just by the first letters of the article title; this confusion has resulted in many anomalies such as Tornado outbreak of April 14–16, 2011 appearing before Tornado outbreak of April 15–16, 1998. Just cleaning up the category sort keys would not be not sufficient to resolve these problems, because the problem is inherent in the too-limited category structure that was in place before I made these changes. The contents of :Category:F3 tornadoes illustrate the mess very well. Colonies Chris (talk) 09:33, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

::@Colonies Chris: if readers want to find Tornadoes by date, we already have :Category:Tornadoes by year. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 10:56, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

:: Also {{yo|Colonies Chris}} anyone can use the Wikipedia:PetScan tool to list articles having any category intersection you want. I Support the proposed merges. UnitedStatesian (talk) 15:20, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

:::@BrownHairedGirl; (1) These are not intended to be part of a 'multi-dimensional set of by-date subcats'; they are solely for the purpose I described. They are only subcats of "Tornadoes in state", all of which I would expect to be diffusing categories. (2) Those "Tornadoes of year" categories are equally useless, for the very same reasons I described above. Look at :Category:Tornadoes of 2009 for example. It's a mess, with the articles in no identifiable order at all.

:::@UnitedStatesian: the tool you describe may be useful for highly experienced editors, but I'm thinking about readers here, who will have no idea that something like that exists. Colonies Chris (talk) 17:00, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

::::@Colonies Chris: I know of no other category set where categories are created merely to adopt a different sort order. If you think that :Category:Tornadoes of 2009 could be better sorted, then why not sort it? --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 17:07, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

:::::As I described above, it's useful to have indexes both by date and by location. A category can't sort both ways. Subcategories are the only way to achieve that, as far as I'm aware. Colonies Chris (talk) 17:40, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

::::::@Colonies Chris a category is not an index. You seem to want sortable lists; so see Help:Lists. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 23:51, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

:::::::As I asked below, what's the point of a category if its contents are not in a useful order? A category listing is a form of index, but an index that's not in the order a reader wants is no use. Colonies Chris (talk) 09:26, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

:::::::Certainly a similar benefit could be achieved by a sortable list. But that would require someone to spend a lot of time to create such a list - gathering together all the tornado articles into a single list - and it would have to be maintained manually every time a new tornado article was created. You can be 100% sure that wouldn't happen. Using subcategories is a much neater and less labour-intensive approach. Colonies Chris (talk) 20:38, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

• Support as obvious duplicates. In theory we could duplicate every category multiple times with different sort keys, that would result in the whole category system being doubled or tripled in size. Not a good idea at all. Marcocapelle (talk) 22:36, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

::So how to do you propose to allow readers to be able to easily search within categories which have more than one natural sort order? What's the point of a category whose members aren't in a useful sequence? Colonies Chris (talk) 22:50, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

::: As said, every category can be sorted in whatever multiple orders if you'd wish. I do not want to propose anything here, this concerns a wish that is not accommodated for by the category system. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:39, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

::::Can you explain that please? The contents of a category are in an order determined solely by the sortkeys in the constituent articles; there may be tools that can re-sort and filter the contents, but the ordinary reader who's looking for something will know nothing about them. Of course you're right that it's not accommodated in the category system, because of the limitation that one article can only specify one sort key for a category; that's why I'm proposing this approach. There are many other categories that would benefit similarly, though these tornado article categories are by far the worst mess I've seen. If readers would benefit from having articles within a category ordered by more than one sort key, why not? Colonies Chris (talk) 09:26, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

::::* "the ordinary reader who's looking for something will know nothing about them" ... until the reader opens and reads the articles. And the latter is the purpose of a category: to help readers find and read more articles about a topic they are interested in. Marcocapelle (talk) 19:01, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

::::::We don't seem to be understanding each other here - how will opening an article inform a reader about tools for sorting elements within a category? My point is that they're going to experience great difficulty finding the article they want if the articles within the category are in no sensible order. It's about as much use as a dictionary that has all the words but in random order. Colonies Chris (talk) 20:38, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

:::::::@Colonies Chris: If {{tq|the articles within the category are in no sensible order}}, then simply sort them into a sensible order rather tan creating a new category. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 01:21, 30 November 2018 (UTC)

::::::::To repeat what I said in my initial explanation, the problem is that there are two natural sequences, that readers might want to search by - date and location. Since a category can only have one order, the subcat approach makes it possible to, in effect, have the same category in two different sequences. Colonies Chris (talk) 11:35, 30 November 2018 (UTC)

::::::* Concur with BrownHairedGirl. Readers do not have to be informed about tools for sorting elements within a category, that is an editors' responsibility. Readers have to be informed about the existence of all articles available about a topic. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:58, 30 November 2018 (UTC)

::::::::We seem to be very much at cross purposes here. I am not suggesting that readers should use obscure tools to sort categories. Absolutely the contrary. What I'm trying to achieve with this category structure is a way for readers to be able to view (and search) the articles in a category in two different sequences (by date or by location). The whole point of what I'm suggesting is to make this as easy for a reader as clicking on the appropriate category. Colonies Chris (talk) 11:35, 30 November 2018 (UTC)

• Support - there are many ways that things like tornado articles could be sorted so this is better handled by a sortable list than by multiple categories. Sorting by year may be the best way to sort these articles, but that could be done (after discussion in wikiproject and putting a note on the category pages) in the main categories. DexDor ^(talk) 19:47, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

::Please note that I've already raised this question on the project page and received no response at all. See link in my first comment. As I noted above, I understand that a sortable list can provide the same benefit, but it would require updating every time a new tornado article is created - I'd bet a lot of money that it would become out of date within weeks if not days. Colonies Chris (talk) 20:38, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

:::A list would be a list of tornadoes (with a redlink where there is not yet an article), not a list of articles. Why not sort the main category by date? DexDor ^(talk) 21:23, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

::::(1) What's the difference? Whether it listed all tornadoes, or just articles, it would still have to be manually maintained each time someone creates a new tornado article. Using the category structure I'm proposing solely requires the new article to be categorised, which is a normal part of creating an article.

::::(2) As I noted in my initial explanation, the problem I'm trying to solve here is that a reader may wish to search by date or by location. It's in the nature of our category system that a category can't be ordered more than one way - it's completely determined by the sort key assigned in the article. Yes, I could adjust the sort keys to use date properly (in fact, I've been doing exactly that in order to populate the "Tornadoes in state by year" subcategories). But that means that locations will appear in random order unless they're assigned their own sort key in a 'by location' subcat. Using subcats is a way of, in effect, sorting a category in two different sequences. 11:35, 30 November 2018 (UTC)

:::::Re 1: A list can include things that there isn't an article about (if it can be referenced of course). Re 2: What if the reader wants to sort by death toll, by highest wind speed recorded, by cost of damage, by latitude ...? DexDor ^(talk) 22:02, 30 November 2018 (UTC)

::::::(1) But it can't include entries for events that haven't happened yet. Almost all new tornado articles are about new events, they're not documenting older events. (2) If any of those possible search fields were considered potentially useful enough, another subcat could be created. Much easier, and much less ongoing maintenance, than a giant sortable list. Colonies Chris (talk) 10:28, 1 December 2018 (UTC)

:::::::(1) I was responding to your comments such as "each time someone creates a new tornado article" which are incorrect. (2) It's unlikely that other editors would categorize (e.g. using sortkeys) in exactly the way to make your idea work. Multiple categories with different ordering isn't the way we normally categorize in wp. Remember that we are categorizing articles - not attempting to use the wp category system to construct a database of tornadoes; for that Wikidata or a specialist website would probably be more appropriate. DexDor ^(talk) 15:19, 1 December 2018 (UTC)

::::::::(1) I'm sorry, I simply don't understand what point you're making here. (2) Since the categories are called "Tornadoes in state by date/location", it would be perfectly clear what form the sort key should take. (2) You make the point that we are categorising articles here, not creating a database. But what is the point of categorising if not to make articles readily findable? This is not about creating a data base - it's about allowing readers to find the article they want as easily as possible, by ensuring that the articles appear within the category in a useful order. Colonies Chris (talk) 22:51, 1 December 2018 (UTC)

:::::::::(1) A list lists things (e.g. events) whether or not each has an article (i.e. having an entry in a list is not directly connected to whether an article exists). A category lists articles. (2a) There are many different ways (formats) in which both location and date can be specified in. (2b) That you refer to "the category" (singular) suggests you haven't grasped that having a separate category for each sort order that an editor thinks might be useful could lead to the creation of many categories. DexDor ^(talk) 07:40, 2 December 2018 (UTC)

::::::::::(1) I have never at any point suggested dealing with anything but articles. I don't know where you've got that from. This is about categorising and indexing existing and future articles, not anything else. (2) When I wrote 'the category' I was referring to the enclosing category, whose subcats would be in different sequences (as above - "Tornadoes in Kansa by date" and "Tornadoes in Kansas by location" would be subcats of "Tornadoes in Kansas") - yes of course, that implies the creation of more (sub)categories, but what's the problem with that? If it serves our readers, why not? (2a) Date formats vary, but there are other categories ordered by date; yyyy-mm-dd is pretty universal. Occasional errors or inconsistencies can easily be fixed, unlike the current situation, where no editor knows what sort key to even try to use. Colonies Chris (talk) 09:56, 2 December 2018 (UTC)

I'd like to summarise and hopefully reset this discussion. Here's what I've done with tornado categories, and why.

1. I noticed that many tornado-related categories are a mess, in the sense that the articles within them are listed in no discernible order, and thus of no use to anyone looking for a particular article. For an example, see :Category:F3 tornadoes.
2. Generally, tornado article titles identify an outbreak by date and location, which are the primary things any reader looking for an article is likely to want to search on; however a typical tornado-related category such as :Category:Tornadoes in Kansas does not guide an editor towards which of the sort keys would be appropriate. The result has been that most tornado articles simply use the default sortkey of article title, with the random results that you can see in any of the tornado-related categories.
3. My plan for fixing this problem, which I had started working on, was to create subcategories, by date and by location, and modify each tornado article's categories to use these subcategories with apropriate sort keys. Thus, a reader would be able to click on, for example, :Category:F4 tornadoes by location, to see an appropriately ordered list that would, hopefully, contain the one they're looking for.
4. Objections to this proposal take several forms: (1) It's creating a lot of small subcats. This is true, but I don't see why it's a problem. If it's useful to our readers, why not? (2) We've never used subcats like this before for ordering in different ways. Also true, as far as I know, but again, why not? (3) There are other methods available, such as a sortable list. Yes, but that's more work to set up and would require separate updating whenever a new article was created, and so would inevitably get out of step. Why choose a difficult method over an easier one? (4) Categorising is not indexing. This objection is a bit of a mystery to me. If the items in a category are not in any useful sequence, they're unsearchable and therefore no use, so what's the point of the category at all?

Hopefully, this has clarified what I've done and my reasons for doing it, and removed some of the misunderstandings about my actions and my intentions. Colonies Chris (talk) 09:48, 3 December 2018 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: self-close per discussion below. Good Ol’factory ^(talk) 06:45, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

:* Propose renaming :Category:Journalists of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:Journalists from the Ottoman Empire

:* Propose renaming :Category:Architects of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:Architects from the Ottoman Empire

:* Propose renaming :Category:Academics of the Ottoman Empire to :Category:Academics from the Ottoman Empire

:Nominator's rationale: This are nationality/occupation categories. They are not, respectively, a category for journalists who reported on the Empire; a category for those who designed the Empire; or an academics by subject category, as the names suggest. Good Ol’factory ^(talk) 00:02, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose as nominated. I fully enthusiastically support in this principle, but the problem is much wider than this and needs a comprehensive solution, rather than inconsistency.

:There are plenty of other sub-cats of :Category:People of the Ottoman Empire whose names are misleading, such as :Category:Painters of the Ottoman Empire: did they cover the whole Empire in paint? Or just paint a few walls somewhere? Or create paintings? The intended meaning is actually "Painters from the Ottoman Empire", which is about the least expected interpretation of the category name.

:Same some sort of problems with e.g. :Category:Writers of the Ottoman Empire. And many more.

:This is an an absurd situation, created by an ill-considered discussion at WP:CFD 2017 September 13 ... so congrats to @Good Ol’factory for raising it. My objection is that renaming just a subset will create inconsistency. We should either rename :Category:People of the Ottoman Empire and all its subcats, or rename none.

:In early summer, I had a draft of a group nom to rename them all, but I lost it when my laptop died. I could re-create it without too much trouble, and would be happy to do so if that helps. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs)

::Sure, we can have a broader discussion, and if you'd like to help, I'd be glad to close this one. I don't think the other ones are as confusing as these, which is why I selected them out. I agree that the discussion which chose to use "of" rather than "from" is a strange decision. Good Ol’factory ^(talk) 03:18, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

:::@Good Ol’factory: mass nom of 208 categories is now open above, at #People from the Ottoman Empire. Do you want to close this one? — Preceding unsigned comment added by BrownHairedGirl (talk • contribs)

::::Yes. Good Ol’factory ^(talk) 06:42, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.