Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2018 September 17

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: {{relisted}} at 2018 OCT 6 CFD. Good Ol’factory ^(talk) 05:45, 6 October 2018 (UTC)

:* Propose containerization {{Lc|Cultural depictions of people}}

:Nominator's rationale: Category which needs a purge due to extreme misuse. While it's valid in principle as a container for the subcategories that it contains, and the usage note states that "This category is for categories and lists of cultural and other works (including film, TV and literature) that feature depictions of people", the problem here is that it's often directly applied to random individual films and television series and characters — but virtually every single film or television series or play or novel that exists at all, and every single character within any of them, is by definition a "cultural depiction of people", making this an WP:INDISCRIMINATE category. (For example, The Nanny and Everybody Loves Raymond and Don't Trust the B---- in Apartment 23, which have been filed here, are not somehow more defined by being "cultural depictions of people" than, say, The Big Bang Theory or Kim's Convenience or The West Wing, which have not.) And further to that, I've also already caught at least one example of a real person being filed here, on the trivial basis that somebody once played him in a film — but since a lot of notable people have been portrayed on film, filing real people here on that basis is also a recipe for extreme indiscriminacy. This is not a good basis for a content category, because it doesn't represent a point of distinction between the things that have been filed here and similar things that haven't — it's a valid parent for the subcategories, but it should not contain a random and arbitrary selection of individual works or characters. Bearcat (talk) 16:44, 17 September 2018 (UTC)

::An awful lot of the problems would be solved by renaming to :Category:Cultural depictions of real individual people. I don't see a problem with say Rubens (film) being in a subcat, but clearly dramas about fictional characters don't belong, nor social/anthropological documentaries etc etc. Plus a clearer category note, & repeating for the subcats. Is this old discussion partly to blame? The current category note is certainly part of the problem:

{{category explanation|categories and lists of cultural and other works (including film, TV and literature) that feature depictions of people}}

:For works which are essentially based on real people, see :Category:Works based on real people.

• This used to be much better, before the discussion. Johnbod (talk) 16:48, 21 September 2018 (UTC)
• Support containerization per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:40, 22 September 2018 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: delete. Good Ol’factory ^(talk) 14:29, 3 October 2018 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting {{Lc|Syrian territories}}

:Nominator's rationale: Vague concept with no clear definition. The Syrian territories article was recently deleted following AfD. The place for any territory in Syria would be :Category:Geography of Syria. Place Clichy (talk) 15:50, 17 September 2018 (UTC)

• Merge to :Category:Geography of Syria -- The concept seems to be "occupied zones in Syria", but the extents of these will vary as the civil war progresses. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Peterkingiron (talk • contribs)
• Delete without merging, the articles in this category are potentially a matter of history rather than geography. Marcocapelle (talk) 19:01, 27 September 2018 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: Rename. Timrollpickering 19:02, 24 September 2018 (UTC)

:* Propose renaming :Category:Vicenza Calcio to :Category:L.R. Vicenza Virtus

:Nominator's rationale: The original club "Vicenza Calcio" (historically "L.R. Vicenza") was folded. But at the same time L.R. Vicenza Virtus was founded (relocated from another city) as a legitimate successor (by acquiring the assets of the original club) which covered on the same article. The category name should follow the change of the WP:article title in this case Matthew_hk tc 12:46, 17 September 2018 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: Delete. Timrollpickering 19:03, 24 September 2018 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting {{Lc|People associated with death}}

:Nominator's rationale: delete per WP:OCASSOC and the subcategories are entirely unrelated. All three subcategories are already somewhere else in the tree of :Category:Death so there is no need to merge. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:25, 17 September 2018 (UTC)

• Delete per nom. power~enwiki (π, ν) 16:16, 17 September 2018 (UTC)
• Delete. This is incredibly silly, particularly because it directly parents {{cl|Dead people}} — by that standard, every single person who has ever existed and ever will exist is "associated with death", which makes this an WP:INDISCRIMINATE category that scopes down to eventually contain every single article we have about any human being. Death is already well-categorized for in other ways, so there's no inherent need for this. Bearcat (talk) 16:55, 17 September 2018 (UTC)
• Delete. We are all dead in the end. Rathfelder (talk) 08:35, 18 September 2018 (UTC)
• For as in Adam all die, even so in Wikipedia should this category be deleted. Mangoe (talk) 17:57, 21 September 2018 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: Delete. Timrollpickering 19:03, 24 September 2018 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting {{Lc|George P. Shultz}}

:Nominator's rationale: Eponymous category with only four members, including the main article. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 04:47, 17 September 2018 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: Rename to "state senators". Timrollpickering 19:06, 24 September 2018 (UTC)

:* Propose renaming :Category:Alabama State Senators to :Category:Alabama state senators

:* Propose renaming :Category:Alaska State Senators to :Category:Alaska state senators

:* Propose renaming :Category:Arizona State Senators to :Category:Arizona state senators

:* Propose renaming :Category:Arkansas State Senators to :Category:Arkansas state senators

:* Propose renaming :Category:California State Senators to :Category:California state senators

:* Propose renaming :Category:Colorado State Senators to :Category:Colorado state senators

:* Propose renaming :Category:Connecticut State Senators to :Category:Connecticut state senators

:* Propose renaming :Category:Delaware State Senators to :Category:Delaware state senators

:* Propose renaming :Category:Florida State Senators to :Category:Florida state senators

:* Propose renaming :Category:Georgia (U.S. state) State Senators to :Category:Georgia (U.S. state) state senators

:* Propose renaming :Category:Hawaii State Senators to :Category:Hawaii state senators

:* Propose renaming :Category:Idaho State Senators to :Category:Idaho state senators

:* Propose renaming :Category:Illinois State Senators to :Category:Illinois state senators

:* Propose renaming :Category:Indiana State Senators to :Category:Indiana state senators

:* Propose renaming :Category:Iowa State Senators to :Category:Iowa state senators

:* Propose renaming :Category:Kansas State Senators to :Category:Kansas state senators

:* Propose renaming :Category:Kentucky State Senators to :Category:Kentucky state senators

:* Propose renaming :Category:Louisiana State Senators to :Category:Louisiana state senators

:* Propose renaming :Category:Maine State Senators to :Category:Maine state senators

:* Propose renaming :Category:Maryland State Senators to :Category:Maryland state senators

:* Propose renaming :Category:Massachusetts State Senators to :Category:Massachusetts state senators

:* Propose renaming :Category:Michigan State Senators to :Category:Michigan state senators

:* Propose renaming :Category:Minnesota State Senators to :Category:Minnesota state senators

:* Propose renaming :Category:Mississippi State Senators to :Category:Mississippi state senators

:* Propose renaming :Category:Missouri State Senators to :Category:Missouri state senators

:* Propose renaming :Category:Montana State Senators to :Category:Montana state senators

:* Propose renaming :Category:Nebraska State Senators to :Category:Nebraska state senators

:* Propose renaming :Category:Nevada State Senators to :Category:Nevada state senators

:* Propose renaming :Category:New Hampshire State Senators to :Category:New Hampshire state senators

:* Propose renaming :Category:New Jersey State Senators to :Category:New Jersey state senators

:* Propose renaming :Category:New Mexico State Senators to :Category:New Mexico state senators

:* Propose renaming :Category:New York State Senators to :Category:New York state senators

:* Propose renaming :Category:North Carolina State Senators to :Category:North Carolina state senators

:* Propose renaming :Category:North Dakota State Senators to :Category:North Dakota state senators

:* Propose renaming :Category:Ohio State Senators to :Category:Ohio state senators

:* Propose renaming :Category:Oklahoma State Senators to :Category:Oklahoma state senators

:* Propose renaming :Category:Oregon State Senators to :Category:Oregon state senators

:* Propose renaming :Category:Pennsylvania State Senators to :Category:Pennsylvania state senators

:* Propose renaming :Category:Rhode Island State Senators to :Category:Rhode Island state senators

:* Propose renaming :Category:South Carolina State Senators to :Category:South Carolina state senators

:* Propose renaming :Category:South Dakota State Senators to :Category:South Dakota state senators

:* Propose renaming :Category:Tennessee State Senators to :Category:Tennessee state senators

:* Propose renaming :Category:Texas State Senators to :Category:Texas state senators

:* Propose renaming :Category:Utah State Senators to :Category:Utah state senators

:* Propose renaming :Category:Vermont State Senators to :Category:Vermont state senators

:* Propose renaming :Category:Virginia State Senators to :Category:Virginia state senators

:* Propose renaming :Category:Washington (state) State Senators to :Category:Washington (state) state senators

:* Propose renaming :Category:West Virginia State Senators to :Category:West Virginia state senators

:* Propose renaming :Category:Wisconsin State Senators to :Category:Wisconsin state senators

:* Propose renaming :Category:Wyoming State Senators to :Category:Wyoming state senators

:Nominator's rationale: Capitalizing "State Senator" here is incorrect. An alternative option would be a move to a Members of the Alabama State Senate.

Most of the other states should be similar; New York, Georgia, and Washington may have disambiguation issues, Nebraska has a unicameral legislature (with state senators), and some states may have "State" in the official name. power~enwiki (π, ν) 02:36, 17 September 2018 (UTC)

• Support – yes, we should fix over-capitalization here and other places per MOS:JOBTITLES. Dicklyon (talk) 03:26, 17 September 2018 (UTC)
• Support – nice work putting this together, and this is definitely a case of overcapitalization. Question: Is there a good reason for the redundancy for Georgia and Washington? Bradv 03:51, 17 September 2018 (UTC)
• For Georgia, while Politics of Georgia (country) doesn't mention a Senate it could theoretically have one at some point in the future. Washington may not need it. power~enwiki (π, ν) 03:54, 17 September 2018 (UTC)
• As the federal senators are categorized "United States Senators from x", there's no confusion there. I suggest this may be an example of consistency overriding readability, and I support shortening the Georgia and Washington nominations. Bradv 03:58, 17 September 2018 (UTC)
• It's considered standard practice on Wikipedia that categories related to Georgia the US state have to be disambiguated to prevent confusion with Georgia the country, and categories related to Washington have to be disambiguated to prevent confusion with DC. The fact that some individual Georgia-state or Washington-state categories might not have their own personal conflicts with Georgia-Tbilisi or Washington DC categories is irrelevant, because the Georgia-state and Washington-state category trees also have to be internally consistent from top to bottom — if we let these go undabbed just because Georgia-Tbilisi and Washington DC don't have senates, then people who don't already know where they're located won't be able to rationally predict their locations. Bearcat (talk) 17:02, 17 September 2018 (UTC)
• Speedy rename Sensible. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 04:48, 17 September 2018 (UTC)
• Support - oppose alt rename suggested in comments for Georgia and Washington, as a) the US state is not the primary topic (as seen here - Georgia (U.S. state) & Georgia (country) and Washington (state)); and b) for WP:CONSISTENCY with the parent category :Category:Georgia (U.S. state) & all Georgia (U.S. state) sub-categories and :Category:Washington (state) and all Washington (state) sub-categories. --Gonnym (talk) 10:21, 17 September 2018 (UTC)
• Support alternative - The Members of X State Senate formulation is the best way to resolve the endless debate. It is a formulation that everyone can agree should be capitalized. Blueboar (talk) 11:29, 17 September 2018 (UTC)
• Support: over-capitalization is a scourge; lowercase senator matches NOAD and AP style guide. —LinkTiger (talk) 16:45, 17 September 2018 (UTC)
• Support, overcapitalization. Bearcat (talk) 17:02, 17 September 2018 (UTC)
• Support alternative - I support Blueboar's idea of ""The Members of X State Senate" as it does remove ambiguity. However, I am not opposed to the proposed fix either. Markvs88 (talk) 12:59, 18 September 2018 (UTC)
• Prefer original nomination, 48 more concise category names and 2 longer category names is better than the other way around. But obviously the alternative is better than leaving as is. Marcocapelle (talk) 19:52, 18 September 2018 (UTC)
• Support change of capitalisation. However, I lean towards the alternative Members of X State Senate or Senators in X State Senate, to ensure that this does not pick up members of the U.S. Congress by mistake. I am inclined to want to retain the dab for Georgia for consistency. Peterkingiron (talk) 14:51, 23 September 2018 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.