Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2020 May 25

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= May 25 =

== Category:Song recordings produced by Robert Ellis Orrall ==

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: Delete Timrollpickering (talk) 09:45, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Song recordings produced by Robert Ellis Orrall}}

:Nominator's rationale: Category contains 5 redirects and no articles. No help to readers of WP. Richhoncho (talk) 22:26, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

Support per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:14, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

== Disease outbreaks ==

:The result of the discussion was: no consensus Good Ol’factory ^(talk) 03:44, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

:Propose merging:

:* :Category:Epidemics to :Category:Disease outbreaks

:* :Category:Epidemics by century to :Category:Disease outbreaks by century

:* :Category:20th-century epidemics to :Category:20th-century disease outbreaks

:* :Category:21st-century epidemics to :Category:21st-century disease outbreaks

:Propose renaming:

:* :Category:Smallpox epidemics to :Category:Smallpox outbreaks

:* :Category:Epidemics in India to :Category:Disease outbreaks in India

:* :Category:Epidemic monuments and memorials to :Category:Disease outbreaks monuments and memorials

:* :Category:Epidemics in art to :Category:Disease outbreaks in art

:* :Category:Epidemic riots to :Category:Disease outbreak riots

:* :Category:Epidemic stubs to :Category:Disease outbreak stubs

:* :Template:Epidemic-stub to :Template:Disease-outbreak-stub

:* :Category:15th-century epidemics to :Category:15th-century disease outbreaks

:* :Category:16th-century epidemics to :Category:16th-century disease outbreaks

:* :Category:17th-century epidemics to :Category:17th-century disease outbreaks

:* :Category:18th-century epidemics to :Category:18th-century disease outbreaks

:* :Category:19th-century epidemics to :Category:19th-century disease outbreaks

:Nominator's rationale: per WP:OVERLAPCAT and WP:SUBJECTIVECAT, to remove from category space a distinction between "disease outbreak" and "epidemic", because any distinction is not clear enough to allow for objective categorisation.

:The head articles epidemic and disease outbreak both stress that the two term have been used interchangeably. In recent times there have been some efforts to standardise the terminology, by defining "epidemic" as a higher-threshold subset of "outbreak", and setting criteria by which an outbreak can be labelled as an epidemic.

:The hierarchy of terminology is set out quite accessibly at https://intermountainhealthcare.org/blogs/topics/live-well/2020/04/whats-the-difference-between-a-pandemic-an-epidemic-endemic-and-an-outbreak/ .. but that page notes:

::: "You can see why it’s so easy to confuse these terms. They’re all related to one another and there’s a natural ebb and flow between them as treatments become available and measures for control are put in place — or as flare-ups occur and disease begins to spread."

:Neither that article nor the general dictionaries offer a clear distinction. For example:

:;Merriam-Webster:

:* Outbreak [https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/outbreak 1b/ a sudden rise in the incidence of a disease]

:*Epidemic: [https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/epidemic noun 1/ an outbreak of disease that spreads quickly and affects many individuals at the same time : an outbreak of epidemic disease]

:; Cambridge dictionary:

:* Outbreak: [https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/outbreak a time when something suddenly begins, especially a disease or something else dangerous or unpleasant:]

:*Epidemic: [https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/epidemic the appearance of a particular disease in a large number of people at the same time]

:The World Health Organization's page on [https://www.who.int/hac/about/definitions/en/ Definitions: emergencies], offers definitions which are complex, and better-suited to use by medical teams than by an encyclopedia:

:*Epidemic: The occurrence in a community or region of cases of an illness, specific health-related behaviour, or other health-related events clearly in excess of normal expectancy. The community or region and the period in which the cases occur are specified precisely. The number of cases indicating the presence of an epidemic varies according to the agent, size, and type of population exposed, previous experience or lack of exposure to the disease, and time and place of occurrence.

:*Epidemic threshold: Is the critical number or density of susceptible hosts required for an epidemic to occur. The epidemic threshold is used to confirm the emergence of an epidemic so as to step-up appropriate control measures.

:As far as I can see, that means that the historical opacity and fuzziness of these terms is being replaced in contemporary professional medical usage with an evolving set of criteria specific to each disease type and region.

:This sort of terminological distinction is of course a crucial tool for those working in disaster relief, so that they can apply previously-prepared action plans. But the finely-grained, evolving terminology of frontline practitioners who agree to use terms in a particular way at a given time is a poor tool for categorisation in a general enyclopedia, which needs terminology that:

:# can be applied with some reasonable consistency across different historical eras

:# avoids finely-nuanced distinctions without clear boundaries

:# reflects the usage in the non-technical reliable sources which underpin much of any encyclopedia

:In this case, the broad conceptual distinction is complex enough that this [https://www.ima.org.il/FilesUpload/IMAJ/0/55/27606.pdf 2002 article was still examining the different definitions]. we can save everyone a lot of headaches by just categorising them all as "disease outbreaks", and letting the nuances of labelling be discussed within the articles. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 20:59, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

Related discussion: #Medical_outbreaks, below --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 21:13, 25 May 2020 (UTC)
Comment, I had the impression that "outbreak" is only applicable in the stage before experts refer to it as an epidemic by certain measures of size and severity, i.e. that the term "outbreak" is no longer applicable once it becomes an official epidemic. I see some of that back in the above definitions though admittedly not very clearly. Marcocapelle (talk) 21:41, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

:*Seconded. GPinkerton (talk) 19:51, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

Question, if we are going to merge it, why not a reverse merge? Marcocapelle (talk) 21:41, 25 May 2020 (UTC)
@Marcocapelle, I guess I haven't explained the problem clearly enough, so I will try to simplify:

::The two terms are sometimes used interchangeably. But where there is a distinction, disease outbreak is the more inclusive term. That is: all epidemics are outbreaks, but not all outbreaks are epidemics.

::So we can't do a reverse merge (renaming all outbreaks as epidemics), because not all outbreaks are epidemics.

::An outbreak doesn't cease to be an outbreak just because it is defined by some or all people as an epidemic.

:: https://intermountainhealthcare.org/blogs/topics/live-well/2020/04/whats-the-difference-between-a-pandemic-an-epidemic-endemic-and-an-outbreak/ is quite helpful, which is why I quoted from it. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 22:14, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

::*I dispute that "outbreak" is more general or inclusive than "epidemic". "Outbreaks" are merely epidemics that have not (yet) broken out (!) into epidemics or pandemics. GPinkerton (talk) 19:51, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

Certainly merge somehow because of overlapping content. If other editors agree with using "disease outbreaks" as the overarching term I'll happily accept that. If there is going to be discussion about it, "diseases" or "disease outbreaks and epidemics" might be alternative merge targets. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:23, 26 May 2020 (UTC)
@Marcocapelle, :Category:Diseases is a very different set of articles. For example, smallpox is a disease; but these categories do not include the broad articles on each disease. They are for articles about instances of the disease in a specific time and place. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 09:18, 26 May 2020 (UTC)
Neutral ~~At this step I would oppose or favour renaming to epidemics.~~ While epidemics has a clear scientific definition which is standardized worldwide thanks to WHO, an outbreak can be pretty much anything. I guess that we would therefore pretty much always have RS telling us if a situation is an epidemic or not. The question is, really, if a disease outbreak that is not an epidemic is something defining or not. Place Clichy (talk) 08:20, 26 May 2020 (UTC)
@Place Clichy, unfortunately the WHO has not standardised the distinction. It has set a framework for making the distinction, but that framework is applied in very different circumstances, against incomplete and changeable data, and against developing understanding of the diseases involved. As one of the other sources notes, [https://intermountainhealthcare.org/blogs/topics/live-well/2020/04/whats-the-difference-between-a-pandemic-an-epidemic-endemic-and-an-outbreak/ The distinction between the words “pandemic,” “epidemic,” and “endemic” is regularly blurred, even by medical experts. This is because the definition of each term is fluid and changes as diseases become more or less prevalent over time].

::If we have an article an article about a disease outbreak which is not an epidemic, then being an outbreak is the defining attribute of it. Not having categories for such articles would be perverse. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 09:33, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

::*PS Here is an example of an article about a set of outbreaks, which do not seem to be clearly defined as an epidemic: 2012 outbreak of Salmonella. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 10:19, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

:::: OK then, I guess I am confused by my native language where the cognate of epidemic clearly is the most standard term, and is also the usual translation for outbreak. This seems to be the case in many languages when you look at how many interwiki links there are on {{Cl|Epidemics}} (68) and Epidemic (104), many of them cognates of epidemic, compared to {{Cl|Disease outbreaks}} (11) and Disease outbreak (13). If there's one epidemic that seems hard to juggle, it is that of monosyllables (or in this case, disyllables) in the English language. My first gut would be to prefer a precise word rather than an imprecise one. Still, I'll trust your analysis on this and remain neutral. Place Clichy (talk) 16:00, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

::::*I support {{u|Place Clichy}}'s initial arguments: epidemic has been used for millennia in many languages, and has been the term for the phenomenon in English far more commonly and for longer than has this terrible compound word "outbreak" or "out-break". GPinkerton (talk) 19:51, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

WikiProject Medicine has been notified.[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Medicine&diff=958925111&oldid=958882705] --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 09:39, 26 May 2020 (UTC)
Support - initially I preferred "epidemic" as the target, but am persuaded as "outbreak" has the broader meaning it should be the target. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 10:53, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

:*I support epidemic as the target. "Outbreak" has (two) narrower meanings than epidemic in everyday epidemiology (not outbreakology!): both the initial transmission of a contagious disease and an epidemic which is insufficiently broken out to count as an epidemic under certain niche 21st century naming rules. Epidemic in most cases here makes much better sense. GPinkerton (talk) 19:51, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

Support or keep as is. I don't see anything particularly wrong with the present setup: :Category:Disease outbreaks, subcat :Category:Epidemics, subcat :Category:Pandemics. Oculi (talk) 11:32, 26 May 2020 (UTC)
@Oculi, the problem is that the fuzziness of distinction between "disease outbreak" and "epidemic" creates overlapping categories. I don't see any way in which this fuzzy distinction aids navigation, which is the purpose of categories. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 13:58, 26 May 2020 (UTC)
Keep as is. Agree with Oculi, also dont really see anything wrong with the present setup. Refer to [https://link.springer.com/referenceworkentry/10.1007%2F978-3-319-05544-2_174-2 this publication], Disease outbreaks can take the endemic, epidemic, or pandemic proportions depending on the intensity of the pathogen, its mode of transmission, herd immunity, and prevalence and incidence of the illness and disease in the community. Ckfasdf (talk) 14:11, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

:* Both the outbreaks categories and the epidemics categories contain articles with either outbreak, epidemic or pandemic in the title. So while the differences may be clear for medical professionals (although nominator provided evidence that even that is questionable), for wikipedians the distinction is certainly not clear enough. Marcocapelle (talk) 15:35, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

Support the merge and rename per nom. Agree that the two terms are too fuzzy to support separate categories, and that "outbreak" is the more inclusive term. Ajpolino (talk) 01:37, 27 May 2020 (UTC)
Support the merge and rename. Interesting that the term epidemic is rarely used of the current situation. I guess because "epidemic" carries the implication of something uncontrollable, and people no longer think in that way. Rathfelder (talk) 09:24, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
This is because it quickly became a pandemic. It has not been called an outbreak either since maybe January. There is also an overlap between epidemic and pandemic. Oculi (talk) 10:16, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
Support rename and merger per nom. I agree with, and can see there is also evidence in reliable sources, that the distinction between these two terms is not clear enough to allow for objective categorisation, as per BHG. --Tom (LT) (talk) 16:50, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
Merge per nom, as the distinction between an epidemic and a mere outbreak is too fuzzy, but Keep the existing epidemic categories wherever there is no outbreak sibling. Dealing with historical periods, with the less advanced state of medical knowledge, mere outbreaks are unlikely to have articles. Peterkingiron (talk) 15:08, 31 May 2020 (UTC)
Question: would sub :Category:Works about viral outbreaks and its children need to be renamed to disease outbreaks at some point after this discussion? Clearly the viral vs. bacterial nature of the disease outbreak plays little role in works such as Love in the Time of Cholera, The Horseman on the Roof or Death in Venice. Place Clichy (talk) 06:13, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
Strong Oppose There is no benefit to replacing the single word "epidemic" with the compound word "outbreak". General use has "outbreak" referring to all sorts of things breaking out (of), and not just diseases. Epidemic only rarely means anything but "episode of disease". Epidemic is a better, more recognizable, and historically rooted term than is the process of breaking out (of something), especially in terms of contagious diseases. Outbreak is an ambiguous neologism, whereas epidemic has been used to describe epidemics since time immemorial. Modern nomenclature is not suitable for retrofitting historical epidemics with a subtle and not-universally recognized distinction between two types of epidemic (i.e., epidemic and outbreak). In fact, I would rather see the word "outbreak" replaced with "epidemic" in almost all historical cases. Furthermore, the change would be potentially misleading, since "outbreak" in epidemiology can also mean the initial transmission stages of any disease, or the first instance of it, and exclude the rest of the epidemic or pandemic. It should also be noted that we are happy to call the First plague pandemic by that name, even though it does not fit the criteria of modern terminology of being global, affecting as it did the Old World exclusively. In short, I would banish the term "outbreak" and use the universally understood "epidemic" instead! GPinkerton (talk) 19:32, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
Oppose I expect an encyclopedia today to use the language of today. I do not think this move is in the right direction in precision nor clarity. I came to this page looking for a clear definition (and example) of an epidemiological curve, not an outbreak curve. (What is that?)

From Johns Hopkins University teach-out on COVID-19 and Epidemiology, "Both epidemic and outbreak refer to a period of time when more cases of a disease occur than is typical in a particular place. If a disease is rare, this might be only a few cases. While if it is more common, we would need to see a very large number of cases before calling something an outbreak. For instance, if we saw even two or three cases of Ebola in New York City, we would call that an outbreak. But we'd have to see many thousands of influenza cases in the same area before we said there was an outbreak of the flu. The term outbreak and epidemic are often used interchangeably. But generally, outbreak is used to refer to something smaller or more contained in space and time. For example, we often refer to the HIV epidemic when discussing the entire course of the disease across the whole world. However, we would only call something and HIV outbreak if we were talking about a particular population over a small period of time. For instance, there was a outbreak of HIV in Indiana from 2011 to 2015. Here's an example about an outbreak of meningitis. In the United States, even though a small number of linked cases of meningococcal diseases is considered an outbreak. Here the county Public Health Department declared a meningococcal disease outbreak at San Diego State University based on only three cases of the disease among undergraduates in a month." https://www.coursera.org/learn/covid19-epidemiology/lecture/nzKaL/step-0-what-is-an-outbreak, Justin Lessler, faculty at the Department of Epidemiology at the Johns Hopkins' Bloomberg School of Public Health. Accessed 2 June 2020.

There is a threshold for an epidemic. "Influenza is a good example for considering how we define an outbreak and it’s not just a number of cases we see. So for influenza, we have a couple of ways of looking at an outbreak. One is to compare the amount of deaths that we see from pneumonia and influenza compared to a seasonally adjusted average. So in this figure, we're comparing a seasonal baseline of influenza cases shown in black, it goes up and down each year. And a defined epidemic threshold is slightly above that seasonal baseline that also goes up and down, here shown in black." Ibid. The figure in reference is at https://gis.cdc.gov/grasp/fluview/mortality.html. Peace. Jplvnv (talk) 20:51, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

Oppose. Nothing wrong with the present tree: {{Cat|Disease outbreaks}}, subcat {{Cat|Epidemics}}, subcat {{Cat|Pandemics}}. Also rename {{cat|Works about viral outbreaks}} (and subcats) to {{cat|Works about disease outbreaks}}. 94.179.245.243 (talk) 11:21, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

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== Catholic cathedrals ==

:The result of the discussion was: keep. bibliomaniac 1 5 00:17, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:Catholic cathedrals in Armenia to :Category:Cathedrals in Armenia

:* Propose merging :Category:Catholic cathedrals in Chile to :Category:Cathedrals in Chile

:* Propose merging :Category:Catholic cathedrals in Cyprus to :Category:Cathedrals in Cyprus

:* Propose merging :Category:Catholic cathedrals in Eritrea to :Category:Cathedrals in Eritrea

:* Propose merging :Category:Catholic cathedrals in Jordan to :Category:Cathedrals in Jordan

:Nominator's rationale: merge, the Catholic parent categories are useful in case there is a split between Roman Catholic and Eastern Catholic, but in the above countries there is only one subcategory, making this category layer redundant. Marcocapelle (talk) 19:18, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

Oppose per WP:SMALLCAT, as a part of the established series :Category:Catholic cathedrals by country. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 21:16, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

:* No, it is only established insofar it contains two subcategories. The above 5 are exceptions on that. The Roman Catholic tree consists of 174 subcategories, the Catholic tree only 42 (which should become 37 as nominated). Marcocapelle (talk) 21:22, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

Oppose, also per WP:SMALLCAT. {{Cl|Catholic cathedrals by country}} is a coherent structure that needs to be kept, especially because of the confusion people make between Catholic and Roman Catholic and the little understanding most people have of the Eastern Catholics. That's precisely why an intermediate Catholic layer is necessary. Placing Roman Catholic and Eastern Catholic separately at the root of a category subtree would be akin to presenting Anglican and Episcopalian topics as part of two different faiths, while in both cases they belong to a single communion. Note that there is also potential for expansion at the Cathedrals in... layer, because in all countries cited except Chile there are notable Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox cathedrals. Place Clichy (talk) 08:20, 26 May 2020 (UTC)
Oppose per Place Clichy. In the Levant, such distinctions are important. Laurel Lodged (talk) 08:57, 26 May 2020 (UTC)
Oppose per BrownHairedGirl's rationale. Dimadick (talk) 10:49, 26 May 2020 (UTC)
Oppose. Split may not be covered yet. PPEMES (talk) 21:10, 26 May 2020 (UTC)
Oppose per above. We might as well start deleting every category that has less than 4 entries on this rigid interpretation of WP:SMALLCAT. Inter&anthro (talk) 17:36, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
Oppose All of these, because in all cases, there may well be cathedrals of other denominations: Cyprus is largely Greek Orthodox; Armenia has its own orthodox denomination. Eritrea probably has Coptic cathedrals. There is Anglican Church of Chile with 4 dioceses, so that there should be another 4 cathedrals there. Peterkingiron (talk) 15:18, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

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== Medical outbreaks ==

:The result of the discussion was: Rename all Timrollpickering (talk) 23:34, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

:Propose renaming:

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks by dependent territory to :Category:Disease outbreaks by dependent territory

{{collapse top|22 subcats of Medical outbreaks by dependent territory}}

:** :Category:Medical outbreaks in Bermuda to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Bermuda

:** :Category:Medical outbreaks in British Overseas Territories to :Category:Disease outbreaks in British Overseas Territories

:** :Category:Medical outbreaks in British Overseas Territories and Crown Dependencies to :Category:Disease outbreaks in British Overseas Territories and Crown Dependencies

:** :Category:Medical outbreaks in French Guiana to :Category:Disease outbreaks in French Guiana

:** :Category:Medical outbreaks in Gibraltar to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Gibraltar

:** :Category:Medical outbreaks in Guadeloupe to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Guadeloupe

:** :Category:Medical outbreaks in Guam to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Guam

:** :Category:Medical outbreaks in Guernsey to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Guernsey

:** :Category:Medical outbreaks in Jersey to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Jersey

:** :Category:Medical outbreaks in Mayotte to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Mayotte

:** :Category:Medical outbreaks in Montserrat to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Montserrat

:** :Category:Medical outbreaks in New Caledonia to :Category:Disease outbreaks in New Caledonia

:** :Category:Medical outbreaks in Overseas France to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Overseas France

:** :Category:Medical outbreaks in Puerto Rico to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Puerto Rico

:** :Category:Medical outbreaks in Réunion to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Réunion

:** :Category:Medical outbreaks in Saint Barthélemy to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Saint Barthélemy

:** :Category:Medical outbreaks in Saint Pierre and Miquelon to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Saint Pierre and Miquelon

:** :Category:Medical outbreaks in the British Virgin Islands to :Category:Disease outbreaks in the British Virgin Islands

:** :Category:Medical outbreaks in the Cayman Islands to :Category:Disease outbreaks in the Cayman Islands

:** :Category:Medical outbreaks in the Collectivity of Saint Martin to :Category:Disease outbreaks in the Collectivity of Saint Martin

:** :Category:Medical outbreaks in the Isle of Man to :Category:Disease outbreaks in the Isle of Man

:** :Category:Medical outbreaks in the Turks and Caicos Islands to :Category:Disease outbreaks in the Turks and Caicos Islands

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks by country to :Category:Disease outbreaks by country

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Afghanistan to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Afghanistan

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Albania to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Albania

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Algeria to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Algeria

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Andorra to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Andorra

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Angola to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Angola

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Antigua and Barbuda to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Antigua and Barbuda

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Argentina to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Argentina

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Armenia to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Armenia

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Australia to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Australia

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Austria to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Austria

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Azerbaijan to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Azerbaijan

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Bahrain to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Bahrain

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Bangladesh to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Bangladesh

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Belarus to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Belarus

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Belgium to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Belgium

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Belize to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Belize

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Benin to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Benin

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Bhutan to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Bhutan

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Bolivia to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Bolivia

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Bosnia and Herzegovina to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Bosnia and Herzegovina

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Botswana to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Botswana

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Brazil to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Brazil

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Brunei to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Brunei

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Bulgaria to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Bulgaria

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Burkina Faso to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Burkina Faso

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Burundi to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Burundi

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Cambodia to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Cambodia

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Cameroon to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Cameroon

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Canada to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Canada

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Cape Verde to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Cape Verde

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in the Central African Republic to :Category:Disease outbreaks in the Central African Republic

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Chad to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Chad

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Chile to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Chile

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in China to :Category:Disease outbreaks in China

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Colombia to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Colombia

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in the Comoros to :Category:Disease outbreaks in the Comoros

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in the Republic of the Congo to :Category:Disease outbreaks in the Republic of the Congo

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in the Democratic Republic of the Congo to :Category:Disease outbreaks in the Democratic Republic of the Congo

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Costa Rica to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Costa Rica

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Croatia to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Croatia

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Cuba to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Cuba

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Cyprus to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Cyprus

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in the Czech Republic to :Category:Disease outbreaks in the Czech Republic

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Denmark to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Denmark

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Djibouti to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Djibouti

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Dominica to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Dominica

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in the Dominican Republic to :Category:Disease outbreaks in the Dominican Republic

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in East Timor to :Category:Disease outbreaks in East Timor

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Ecuador to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Ecuador

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Egypt to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Egypt

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in El Salvador to :Category:Disease outbreaks in El Salvador

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Equatorial Guinea to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Equatorial Guinea

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Eritrea to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Eritrea

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Estonia to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Estonia

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Eswatini to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Eswatini

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Ethiopia to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Ethiopia

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Fiji to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Fiji

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Finland to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Finland

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in France to :Category:Disease outbreaks in France

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Gabon to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Gabon

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in the Gambia to :Category:Disease outbreaks in the Gambia

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Georgia (country) to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Georgia (country)

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Germany to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Germany

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Ghana to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Ghana

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Greece to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Greece

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Grenada to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Grenada

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Guatemala to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Guatemala

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Guinea to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Guinea

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Guinea-Bissau to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Guinea-Bissau

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Guyana to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Guyana

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Haiti to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Haiti

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Hungary to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Hungary

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Iceland to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Iceland

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in India to :Category:Disease outbreaks in India

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Indonesia to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Indonesia

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Iran to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Iran

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Iraq to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Iraq

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Ireland to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Ireland

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Israel to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Israel

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Italy to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Italy

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Ivory Coast to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Ivory Coast

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Jamaica to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Jamaica

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Japan to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Japan

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Jordan to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Jordan

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Kazakhstan to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Kazakhstan

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Kenya to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Kenya

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Kosovo to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Kosovo

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Kuwait to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Kuwait

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Kyrgyzstan to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Kyrgyzstan

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Laos to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Laos

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Latvia to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Latvia

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Lebanon to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Lebanon

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Lesotho to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Lesotho

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Liberia to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Liberia

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Libya to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Libya

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Liechtenstein to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Liechtenstein

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Lithuania to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Lithuania

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Luxembourg to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Luxembourg

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Madagascar to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Madagascar

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Malawi to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Malawi

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Malaysia to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Malaysia

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in the Maldives to :Category:Disease outbreaks in the Maldives

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Mali to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Mali

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Malta to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Malta

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Mauritania to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Mauritania

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Mauritius to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Mauritius

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Mexico to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Mexico

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in the Federated States of Micronesia to :Category:Disease outbreaks in the Federated States of Micronesia

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Moldova to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Moldova

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Monaco to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Monaco

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Mongolia to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Mongolia

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Montenegro to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Montenegro

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Morocco to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Morocco

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Mozambique to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Mozambique

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Namibia to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Namibia

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Nepal to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Nepal

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in the Netherlands to :Category:Disease outbreaks in the Netherlands

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in New Zealand to :Category:Disease outbreaks in New Zealand

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Nicaragua to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Nicaragua

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Niger to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Niger

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Nigeria to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Nigeria

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in North Korea to :Category:Disease outbreaks in North Korea

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in North Macedonia to :Category:Disease outbreaks in North Macedonia

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Northern Cyprus to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Northern Cyprus

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Norway to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Norway

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Oman to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Oman

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Pakistan to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Pakistan

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in the State of Palestine to :Category:Disease outbreaks in the State of Palestine

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Panama to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Panama

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Papua New Guinea to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Papua New Guinea

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Paraguay to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Paraguay

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Peru to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Peru

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in the Philippines to :Category:Disease outbreaks in the Philippines

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Poland to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Poland

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Portugal to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Portugal

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Qatar to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Qatar

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Romania to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Romania

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Russia to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Russia

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Rwanda to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Rwanda

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Saint Kitts and Nevis to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Saint Kitts and Nevis

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Saint Lucia to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Saint Lucia

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Saint Vincent and the Grenadines to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Saint Vincent and the Grenadines

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in San Marino to :Category:Disease outbreaks in San Marino

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in São Tomé and Príncipe to :Category:Disease outbreaks in São Tomé and Príncipe

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Saudi Arabia to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Saudi Arabia

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Senegal to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Senegal

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Serbia to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Serbia

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Seychelles to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Seychelles

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Sierra Leone to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Sierra Leone

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Singapore to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Singapore

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Slovakia to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Slovakia

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Slovenia to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Slovenia

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Somalia to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Somalia

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in South Africa to :Category:Disease outbreaks in South Africa

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in South Korea to :Category:Disease outbreaks in South Korea

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in South Sudan to :Category:Disease outbreaks in South Sudan

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Spain to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Spain

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Sri Lanka to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Sri Lanka

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Sudan to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Sudan

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Sweden to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Sweden

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Switzerland to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Switzerland

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Taiwan to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Taiwan

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Tajikistan to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Tajikistan

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Tanzania to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Tanzania

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Thailand to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Thailand

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Togo to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Togo

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Trinidad and Tobago to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Trinidad and Tobago

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Tunisia to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Tunisia

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Turkey to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Turkey

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Turkmenistan to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Turkmenistan

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Uganda to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Uganda

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Ukraine to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Ukraine

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in the United Arab Emirates to :Category:Disease outbreaks in the United Arab Emirates

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in the United Kingdom to :Category:Disease outbreaks in the United Kingdom

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in the United States to :Category:Disease outbreaks in the United States

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Uruguay to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Uruguay

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Uzbekistan to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Uzbekistan

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Vatican City to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Vatican City

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Venezuela to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Venezuela

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Vietnam to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Vietnam

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Yemen to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Yemen

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Zambia to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Zambia

:* :Category:Medical outbreaks in Zimbabwe to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Zimbabwe

{{collapse top|Another 16 subcats of Medical outbreaks by country, added 20:21, 25 May 2020 (UTC); plus Wales added 20:44, 25 May 2020 (UTC)}}

:** :Category:Medical outbreaks in Scotland to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Scotland

:** :Category:Medical outbreaks in Wales to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Wales

:** :Category:Medical outbreaks in Northern Ireland to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Northern Ireland

:** :Category:Medical outbreaks in England to :Category:Disease outbreaks in England

:** :Category:Medical outbreaks in Melilla to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Melilla

:** :Category:Medical outbreaks in Ceuta to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Ceuta

:** :Category:Medical outbreaks in the Canary Islands to :Category:Disease outbreaks in the Canary Islands

:** :Category:Medical outbreaks in Sint Maarten to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Sint Maarten

:** :Category:Medical outbreaks in Sint Eustatius to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Sint Eustatius

:** :Category:Medical outbreaks in Saba to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Saba

:** :Category:Medical outbreaks in Curaçao to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Curaçao

:** :Category:Medical outbreaks in Aruba to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Aruba

:** :Category:Medical outbreaks in the Åland Islands to :Category:Disease outbreaks in the Åland Islands

:** :Category:Medical outbreaks in Greenland to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Greenland

:** :Category:Medical outbreaks in the Faroe Islands to :Category:Disease outbreaks in the Faroe Islands

:** :Category:Medical outbreaks in Macau to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Macau

:** :Category:Medical outbreaks in Hong Kong to :Category:Disease outbreaks in Hong Kong

:Nominator's rationale: This is a followup to WP:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2016_May_7#Category:Medical_outbreaks, which renamed :Category:Medical outbreaks to :Category:Disease outbreaks, but did not include any of the subcats.

:I deplore the use of WP:CFDS as a way of renaming subcats which could and should have been included in the original nomination, so despite Cgingold's request that the 2016 CFD include all the categories which they chose to neither list nor tag, I am listing all these here for a full discussion.

:However, I agree with Cgingold's 2016 rationale: {{tq|that the standard term for this topic is 'Disease outbreaks', whereas 'Medical outbreaks' is something of an oddity|q=y}}.

:Note also that the head article is at disease outbreak, whereas medical outbreak is not even a redirect.

:It was moved[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Disease_outbreak&diff=947490612&oldid=947052184] from {{noredirect|outbreak}} to {{noredirect|disease outbreak}} on 26 March 2020, with the edit summary {{tq|outbreak has other meanings|q=y}}. That seems to me be correct, since Outbreak (disambiguation) has plenty of entries, including Tornado outbreak, and the dictionaries offer several meanings, including [https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/outbreak Merriam-Webster] and the [https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/outbreak Cambridge Dictionary].

:Here is a comparison of the usage of the terms 'Disease outbreak' and 'Medical outbreak'. The sets have been chosen per WP:Search engine test as sets which concentrate reliable sources:

class="wikitable"

! Source !! Medical outbreaks !! Disease outbreaks

style="text-align:right"

| JSTOR

[https://www.jstor.org/action/doBasicSearch?Query=%22medical+outbreak%22 5]

| [https://www.jstor.org/action/doBasicSearch?Query=%22disease+outbreak%22 3,252]

style="text-align:right"

| Google Scholar

[https://scholar.google.com/scholar?start=20&q=%22Medical+outbreak%22&hl=en&as_sdt=1,5&as_vis=1 33]

| [https://scholar.google.com/scholar?start=990&q=%22disease+outbreak%22&hl=en&as_sdt=1,5&as_vis=1 991]

style="text-align:right"

| Google Books

[https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=%22medical%20outbreak%22+-wikipedia+-%22books,%20llc%22&pws=0&tbm=bks&start=180 190]

| [https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=%22disease%20outbreak%22+-wikipedia+-%22books,%20llc%22&pws=0&tbm=bks&start=440 444]

:Gbooks shows about a 5:2 preference for "disease outbreak", but Gbooks includes plenty of non-scholarly works. But JSTOR and Gscolar are 100% scholarly, they prefer "disease outbreak" by 700:1 (JSTOR) and 33:1 (Gscholar).

:That seems clearcut to me. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 18:06, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

Notifications: WikiProject Disaster management has been notified[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk%3AWikiProject_Disaster_management&type=revision&diff=958789497&oldid=948752601].
WikiProject Medicine has been notified[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Medicine&diff=958789389&oldid=958663831]. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 18:41, 25 May 2020 (UTC)
Tagging: The categories have all been tagged, in these 189 edits[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions&offset=202005251833&dir=next&limit=189&target=BrownHairedGirl&namespace=14] --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 18:46, 25 May 2020 (UTC)
Related discussion: #Disease_outbreaks, above --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 21:12, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

=== Discussion of medical outbreaks ===

Rename per BHG. The article title Disease outbreak seals it for me. I'm not even sure Medical outbreak makes any sense when you think about it. --RexxS (talk) 18:49, 25 May 2020 (UTC)
@RexxS I think that the most literal meaning of "medical outbreak" would be an "outbreak of medicine". Something like this: For years, the people of Xanadu had treated their ailments with herbs and prayers, but in February 1487 there was a sudden medical outbreak. But by the end of the following month, the region was festooned with hospitals and clinics in which white-coated people dispensed magic potions and miracle cures. It took almost two years for the outbreak to subside, and Xanadu was not entirely medicine-free until 1501. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 18:58, 25 May 2020 (UTC)
Rename I can sort of see a rationale behind the original choice: we usually talk of medical disasters, not disease disasters. Nonetheless, for the outbreak-themed subcats, "disease outbreak" is the more common term. --{{u|Mark viking}} {Talk} 19:10, 25 May 2020 (UTC)
Rename per nom. There are some omissions: :Category:Medical outbreaks in British Overseas Territories is listed but not tagged; :Category:Medical outbreaks in the Turks and Caicos Islands is tagged but not listed; and :Category:Medical outbreaks in England is neither listed nor tagged. Oculi (talk) 19:19, 25 May 2020 (UTC)
Thanks, Oculi. I have added the missing categories to the nomination, and tagged both the additions and those which were misssed first time round. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 20:23, 25 May 2020 (UTC)
There remains :Category:Medical outbreaks in Wales. Oculi (talk) 20:26, 25 May 2020 (UTC)
Done. No idea how it was missed. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 20:41, 25 May 2020 (UTC)
Rename per nom and in the spirit of WP:C2D (the fact that the rename has not been reverted in the past two months while the topic is continuously in the news suggests that the new article title is stable enough). Marcocapelle (talk) 19:35, 25 May 2020 (UTC)
Rename per nom, pending a coherent result of the related discussion above about a potential renaming of #Disease outbreaks to Epidemics. Place Clichy (talk) 08:20, 26 May 2020 (UTC)
@Place Clichy, I sincerely hope that there is no renaming from the broad "disease outbreaks" term to a narrower term "epidemics". That is a counter-proposal which you have made at #Disease outbreaks, and it would exclude articles where the balance of reliable sources doesn't support the term "epidemic". --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 09:51, 26 May 2020 (UTC)
Rename, but can we also merge them in the process, to "Disease outbreak by place"? WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:17, 26 May 2020 (UTC)
Rename, good rationale per nom. •Shawnqual• 📚 • 💭 23:58, 27 May 2020 (UTC)
Medical outbreaks is a very bad name for a category. Rathfelder (talk) 13:10, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
Rename per nom. 1857a (talk) 12:10, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
REname -- I did not sample many but mist had an article Covid-19 in Fooland, which clearly refers to a disease. Peterkingiron (talk) 15:22, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

----

== Category:Dutch place names in New York (state) ==

:The result of the discussion was: Delete Timrollpickering (talk) 09:46, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Dutch place names in New York (state)}}

:Nominator's rationale: We don't categorize places in this way as it is non-defining of the places (example CFDs). This category also appears to be based on incorrect OR - for example, Austerlitz, New York was named after a battle (that was named after the German name of a town) and Knickerbocker is a dab page. There's also this CFD. DexDor^(talk) 18:01, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

Support per nom (without objection to creating a list). Marcocapelle (talk) 19:37, 25 May 2020 (UTC)
Support. Per the nominator's reasoning. LefcentrerightTalk (plz ping) 22:20, 25 May 2020 (UTC)
Support Not defining, no objection to a list. RevelationDirect (talk) 00:18, 26 May 2020 (UTC)
Support per nom, no objection to create a list (which may already exist). However I wonder how Austerlitz could have been considered Dutch, as not even the Austerlitz/Astaire family is Dutch. Place Clichy (talk) 08:20, 26 May 2020 (UTC)
Delete per nominator, and per WP:SHAREDNAME. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 09:52, 26 May 2020 (UTC)
Keep -- New York State began life as a Dutch colony, and some of the more prominent NY families are of Dutch ancestry. The distribution of Dutch place-names is thus likely to reflect the extent of Dutch settlement at the time of English conquest. Nevertheless purge of silly inclusions at Austerlitz was the name of a battle, whose name looks to me slavic in origin. Peterkingiron (talk) 15:27, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

:* That might be a reason for a list, not for a category. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:48, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

----

== Category:Star Trek time travel episodes ==

:The result of the discussion was: keep. Remove the movies and place them in a parent category at :Category:Time travel in Star Trek. bibliomaniac 1 5 22:41, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

:* Propose renaming Category:Star Trek time travel episodes to Category:Star Trek time travel stories

:Nominator's rationale: This category contains movies, not only episodes. Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home, Star Trek Generations and Star Trek: First Contact aren't episodes. 147.161.14.48 (talk) 13:35, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

Isn't the more obvious action to remove the movies from the category (and keep the category name)? Marcocapelle (talk) 17:15, 25 May 2020 (UTC)
Time travel in Star Trek is a phenomenon which deserves a category regardless of episodes vs. films. 147.161.12.101 (talk) 06:59, 26 May 2020 (UTC)
Then still it is better to create a parent category and keep :Category:Star Trek time travel episodes as its subcategory. The parent category may well be called :Category:Time travel in Star Trek. Marcocapelle (talk) 15:51, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

Support To better reflect current contents. Dimadick (talk) 10:50, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

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==Category:History of Nyasaland==

File:Symbol move vote.svg Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2020 June 6%23Category:History of Nyasaland

== Category:Film about Prahlada ==

:The result of the discussion was: rename. bibliomaniac 1 5 00:20, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

:* Propose renaming :Category:Film about Prahlada to :Category:Films about Prahlada

:Nominator's rationale: "Film" should not be singular as there are multiple films about Prahlada. Kailash29792 (talk) 08:53, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

Support 147.161.14.48 (talk) 16:02, 25 May 2020 (UTC)
Speedy, this could have been listed at WP:CFDS. Marcocapelle (talk) 17:27, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

----

== Category:Impact craters on Earth by region ==

:The result of the discussion was: rename. bibliomaniac 1 5 22:50, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

:* Propose renaming :Category:Impact craters on Earth by region to :Category:Impact craters by continent (or :Category:Impact craters on Earth by continent)

:Nominator's rationale: To match what the category contains and to match the other subcats of :Category:Landforms by continent. DexDor^(talk) 06:11, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

:Note: The category does contain an Arctic subcat, but that could be moved elsewhere (and probably should be changed to an Arctic Ocean category e.g. to match :Category:Volcanoes of the Arctic Ocean). DexDor^(talk) 17:20, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

Support, region is too ambiguous, continent is clear. Marcocapelle (talk) 17:49, 25 May 2020 (UTC)
Support for consistency with similar categories. Grutness...wha? 04:50, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

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== Category:Elena Paparizou ==

:The result of the discussion was: rename. bibliomaniac 1 5 00:20, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

Nominator's rationale: The main article about this artist and its other related pages have been moved following a recent consensus on the talk page, and so the categories about them need to be renamed as well. Keivan.f^Talk 05:05, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

Rename per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:23, 25 May 2020 (UTC)
Rename per nom. I opposed the renaming of the article, but the category name should follow the decision there. Place Clichy (talk) 10:36, 25 May 2020 (UTC)
Rename per nom. Grk1011 (talk) 16:04, 25 May 2020 (UTC)
Rename to match the main article. RevelationDirect (talk) 01:33, 26 May 2020 (UTC)
Speedy rename: WP:C2D per Talk:Helena_Paparizou#Requested_move_16_May_2020. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 09:54, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

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== Category:Trade Unions Oppose to immigration ==

:The result of the discussion was: delete. bibliomaniac 1 5 00:22, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

:* Propose renaming :Category:Trade Unions Oppose to immigration to :Category:Trade unions opposed to immigration

:Nominator's rationale: Or more likely delete. Fuddle (talk) 01:42, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

Delete instead of rename - not defining. SportingFlyer T·C 04:24, 25 May 2020 (UTC)
Delete per WP:OPINIONCAT. Marcocapelle (talk) 04:34, 25 May 2020 (UTC)
Delete per Marcocapelle. Place Clichy (talk) 10:36, 25 May 2020 (UTC)
Delete/Rename if Kept Per above WP:OPINIONCAT and certainly rename as proposed if kept. RevelationDirect (talk) 17:19, 25 May 2020 (UTC)
Keep Trade Unions Oppose to immigration makes more sense then just Trade union opposed to immigration. WoodLay (talk) 12:37, 27 May 2020 (UTC)
Delete per WP:OPINIONCAT. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 20:25, 27 May 2020 (UTC)
Delete per WP:OPINIONCAT. No objection to listifying, but this looks like a US category and should not appear to be worldwide when it is not. Peterkingiron (talk) 15:36, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

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== Category:Film soundtracks by genre ==

:The result of the discussion was: keep. bibliomaniac 1 5 22:19, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Film soundtracks by genre}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Action film soundtracks‎}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Adventure film soundtracks‎}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Comedy film soundtracks‎}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Documentary film soundtracks‎}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Drama film soundtracks‎}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Fantasy film soundtracks‎}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Horror film soundtracks‎}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Musical film soundtracks‎}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Science fiction film soundtracks‎}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Superhero film soundtracks‎}}

:Nominator's rationale: It's trivial to organize music by the other genre of other types of media it accompanies. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 01:13, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

Delete per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 04:37, 25 May 2020 (UTC)
Oppose. Different genres of film need different types of film score. This is a topic of scholarly study: see e.g. [https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/40108516.pdf Film Music and Film Genre]. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 10:35, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

:*{{Ping|BrownHairedGirl}} Any genre of film can be accompanied by any genre of music. Sing-A-Longs and Lullabies for the Film Curious George is an acoustic soft rock soundtrack to a children's film but Muppets from Space is made up of funk music. Superman has a John Williams score with a full orchestra, and the Guardians of the Galaxy films repurpose classic rock. Etc. Knowing that two films share a genre tells me nothing about the content of the music that accompanies them but we do have :Category:Soundtracks by genre to navigate the actual recordings by genre. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 19:36, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

::*@Justin there are many more issues in choice of film music than what genre of music it is. I see no benefit to readers in depriving them of the chance to browse a set of articles about soundtracks within a given film genre. And I see nothing trivial about the distinction between music for example a sci-fi film and music for a horror film. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 20:37, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

:::*{{Ping|BrownHairedGirl}} If it's important to have a listing of film soundtracks by the genre of the film rather than the genre of the music, why wouldn't a list suffice, then? ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 21:19, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

::::*@Justin, because per WP:CLS, categories have some advantages both for navigation and for maintenance. No objection to creating lists as well if you want to do that. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 21:26, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

Keep category creator here. I'm not sure I see how organizing soundtracks by the genre of the films they accompany is "trivial". TheAwesome Hwyh 15:58, 25 May 2020 (UTC)
Oppose. It doesn't seem unreasonable categorization to me (some examples of where it's "trivial" might help). Also, the nom doesn't explain why no upmerge (to :Category:Film soundtracks) is proposed. DexDor^(talk) 17:12, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

:*{{Ping|DexDor}} Can you re-word your post above? ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 19:37, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

::* I've fixed a typo. I don't see any proof that it's "trivial" categorization. Do you have an example of an article which is in one of these categories, but shouldn't be categorized in that way? DexDor^(talk) 20:09, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

:::*{{Ping|DexDor}} I think it's trivial because I don't imagine users navigating music based on the genre of a different medium. :Category:Funk soundtracks seems like a logically navigable way to break up :Category:Funk albums and :Category:Rhythm and blues soundtracks and I can imagine the value of someone navigating those schemes either as categories or from the bottom of an article. What is the value of navigating different music recordings not by any feature of the music itself but because of some other context in which it appeared? ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 21:23, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

::::*@Justin, that's an argument for categorising soundtracks at all. If the context of usage is as irrelevant as you claim, then the fact that it was used in any film is irrelevant.

:::::For significance, see the article I linked to above. This is an intersection between two types of art, in which the genre of each art type is a relevant factor. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 21:32, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

{{collapse top|Discussion about a type of category which doesn't exist}}

::::::{{Ping|BrownHairedGirl}} What's to stop the multiple intersection of :Category:Theatre soundtracks to historical dramas or :Category:Rock soundtracks to action films? ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 21:43, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

:::::::@Justin, that doesn't exist, and it's not what is being discussed here. But the main reason not to do that would be the category clutter it would create. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 21:48, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

::::::::{{u|BrownHairedGirl}}, :Category:Theatre soundtracks to historical dramas is just as fined-grained and "clutter-y" as :Category:Horror film soundtracks. Now it seems like you are arguing that these shouldn't exist. Why is [soundtrack to film genre] less clutter than [soundtrack to theatre genre] or [soundtrack to television genre] or [soundtrack to book genre]? ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 21:52, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

:::::::::@Justin, this is a mathematical number-of-combination issue. When two sets of attributes are combined, the number of potential combinations multiplies. But as above, such intersections are a red herring: such intersections are not the purpose of this nomination. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 22:03, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

::::::::::{{Ping|BrownHairedGirl}} They are the purpose of this nomination: I nominated it. I don't think that we should have categories for [soundtrack to television genre] nor should we have [soundtrack to film genre]. I also don't think we should encourage the multiple intersection of [music genre soundtrack to other type of media and its genre]. Guardians of the Galaxy: Awesome Mix Vol. 1 (Original Motion Picture Soundtrack) being composed of classic rock is defining and users can reasonably expect to navigate from this rock soundtrack to other rock soundtracks (or, as it were :Category:Pop rock soundtracks, :Category:Soft rock soundtracks, etc.) But this music shares nothing in common with John Williams' score to Superman other than these unrelated and dissimilar musical reocrdings were used in somewhat similar contexts. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 22:09, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

:::::::::::@Justin, the categories you cited as examples of intersection between film-genre and soundtrack-by-musical-genre (e.g. :Category:Rock soundtracks to action films) do not exist. So they cannot be the purpose of this nomination.

:::::::::::This nomination is simply about the intersection between film-genre and soundtrack. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 22:18, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

::::::::::::{{Ping|BrownHairedGirl}} Why did you skip over the fact that this nomination is about [soundtrack to other media] and that I am arguing that we shouldn't have these? Please don't make allegations about my character again (again) like saying that I'm trying to be misleading or otherwise dissembling. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 22:23, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

:::::::::::::@Justin, I did not {{tq|skip over|q=y}} that. i asked you to focus on that, instead of on an issue which doesn't exist.
And I made no comment on your character. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 22:41, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

::::::::::::::{{Ping|BrownHairedGirl}} So you said that I was being deliberately misleading with a red herring but there's no value judgement associated with that? That's an odd take on calling someone dishonest: "I'm not saying that there's a defect in your character, just that you are willfully trying to mislead others." To focus again: we shouldn't have these sorts of categories as they are trivial and not defining. The genre of the music itself contained in a soundtrack is defining. "This is one of the best jazz soundtracks I've ever heard!" The genre of a film with which a soundtrack is associated is not. "This jazz soundtrack is one of the best children's television specials soundtracks I've ever heard!" ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 22:45, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

:::::::::::::::@Justin, please don't put words in my mouth. I did not say you were being misleading, let alone of of being deliberately misleading. I asked you get back to the topic being discussed. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 22:51, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

::::::::::::::::{{Ping|BrownHairedGirl}} So I used a "red herring" that wasn't intended to be misleading? Red herrings are intentional attempts to mislead others. I don't understand why you have to resort to this over and over again where you make a claim about a person's character or true intentions and then walk it back by saying, "Let's focus on the issue" (when you brought up the derail) and then don't focus on the issue! I just pointed out how when one thinks of soundtracks and comparing or contrasting them, it is more common to think of the content of the music, not the content of the associated media. There certainly can be some ways of saying, "[x] is the best horror film soundtrack" or "Boy, I want to look at superhero film soundtracks" but that's also true of many other trivial intersections. Other than someone's thesis, how do you determine which of these is a trivial (double, triple, quadruple) intersection and which are useful for navigating an encyclopedia? ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 22:58, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

:::::::::::::::::Justin, you have angrily and wrongly assumed bad faith, because you failed to read the definition of a term. In calling your tangent a red herring, I did not make a judgement on your intent.

:::::::::::::::::See the articles Red herring: "A red herring may be used intentionally, as in mystery fiction or as part of rhetorical strategies (e.g., in politics), or may be used in argumentation inadvertently."

:::::::::::::::::See the full text of the dicdef which you selectively and misleadingly quoted: wikt:en:red herring: "A clue, information, argument etc. that is or is intended to be misleading, diverting attention from the real answer or issue".

:::::::::::::::::So it is quite clear from both that red herrings can be created unintentionally.

:::::::::::::::::And even if someone did believe that you had intentionally created a red herring (which I don't), that would be a comment on your conduct, not on your character.

:::::::::::::::::This silliness is on top of you diverting discussion away from the type of category which does exist onto a type of category which does not exist. Please stop disrupting CFD with this nonsense. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 23:17, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

::::::::::::::::::{{Ping|BrownHairedGirl}} Samesies. I keep on writing about the actual content of the nomination and you keep on ignoring those parts for the discursive derails and the talking about talking. {{ins|Also, I was never angry but leave it up to you to throw in a few assumptions about my mind and character while telling me that you're not making assumptions about my mind and character.}} {{smiley|sad}} ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 23:24, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

:::::::::::::::::::Justin, you dragged the discussion off topic into a type of category which doesn't exist. You objected to a request to get back on topic. You took offence because you misunderstood a word. You put words in my mouth. And now you accuse me of making assumptions which I have not made.

:::::::::::::::::::I do not know why you are doing this, but it no part of consensus-building. Have a nice evening. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 23:44, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

::::::::::::::::::::{{Ping|BrownHairedGirl}} You inserted yourself in a thread where I was talking to someone else, made up things about my character and mental state that weren't true to distract from me talking about the actual proposal repeatedly, refused to get back on track, and then (as you can see below), exactly what I said would happen is going to happen. Not sure how that is based on consensus-building efforts at making an encyclopedia. {{smiley|sad}} ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 19:30, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

:::::::::::::::::::::Nonsense. I commented in a public discussion. I did not make any assertions about your character or mental state, let alone invent anything. You misunderstood a word I used, and diverted the discussion off into objections based on your edited quote from dictionary, in which you omitted the other meaning (you took only the words after "or"). I hoped that an overnight break might help you to let this go, but sadly not. Just please stop cluttering up CFD with this nonsense. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 19:40, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

Oppose The categories reflect the genre of the film and aid in navigation. Dimadick (talk) 10:52, 26 May 2020 (UTC)
{{Hidden ping|BrownHairedGirl}}{{Hidden ping|DexDor}}{{Hidden ping|Dimadick}}{{Hidden ping|Koavf}}{{Hidden ping|Marcocapelle}}Comment if this nomination closes as keep, which it looks like it will, would anyone object to the creation of :Category:Romantic film soundtracks and :Category:Thriller film soundtracks? Seeing as the others have been controversial, I want to ask if these seem okay. To be clear, I will not create these unless this discussion closes as keep. TheAwesome Hwyh 18:07, 26 May 2020 (UTC)
@TheAwesomeHwyh: sounds fine to me. They should follow the naming convention of the film genre category, so that should be :Category:Romance film soundtracks per :Category:Romance films. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs)
{{Hidden ping|BrownHairedGirl}}Alright. What would you think about creating a separate version of these categories for television shows? As in, :Category:Comedy television soundtracks, :Category:Science fiction television soundtracks? Or should that be merged with the existing categories? TheAwesome Hwyh 18:26, 26 May 2020 (UTC)
@TheAwesomeHwyh: probably best to discuss that at WT:TELEVISION. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 18:30, 26 May 2020 (UTC)
{{Ping|BrownHairedGirl}} thanks! TheAwesome Hwyh 18:32, 26 May 2020 (UTC)
{{Hidden ping|BrownHairedGirl}}{{Hidden ping|DexDor}}{{Hidden ping|Dimadick}}{{Hidden ping|Koavf}}{{Hidden ping|Marcocapelle}}Eh, considering no ones objected I decided to just create :Category:Romance film soundtracks and :Category:Thriller film soundtracks without waiting. Feel free to add them to the nomination. TheAwesome Hwyh 20:32, 26 May 2020 (UTC)
{{Ping|TheAwesomeHwyh}} I do not at all object, since it's consistent. That's nice of you to ask but yes, the consensus appears to be in favor of what you're proposing, so feel empowered to do it. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 19:32, 26 May 2020 (UTC)
{{Ping|Koavf}} Do you mean adding the television category or adding more genres? Also, I accidentally "thanked" a few comments regarding the above collapsed section: I have no comment on it. TheAwesome Hwyh 19:59, 26 May 2020 (UTC)
{{Ping|TheAwesomeHwyh}} Both. Sorry for the long and irrelevant portion above--feel free to ignore it entirely, not just at the arbitrary collapsed point. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 20:05, 26 May 2020 (UTC)
Question. Could :Category:Film soundtracks be one of those categories that keeps everything in it as a parent category and the more-defined child genre categories (like Love Actually being in :Category:British romantic comedy films and :Category:British films, by tagging it with {{tl|All included}}? Starcheerspeaksnewslostwars^{Talk to me} 16:42, 29 May 2020 (UTC)

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== Category:American sitcoms filmed in front of a live audience ==

:The result of the discussion was: delete. bibliomaniac 1 5 00:22, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting {{lc|American sitcoms filmed in front of a live audience}}

:Nominator's rationale: Non-defining. It is also very hard to populate without watching every series. Created with :Category:American multi-camera sitcoms which is opening Pandora's box IMHO. Fuddle (talk) 00:56, 25 May 2020 (UTC) Fuddle (talk) 00:56, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

Delete Trivial. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 01:16, 25 May 2020 (UTC)
Delete. Possibly listify, but it wouldn't cause much harm to get rid of it completely. Grutness...wha? 03:58, 25 May 2020 (UTC)
Delete per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 04:38, 25 May 2020 (UTC)
Delete per nom and past decisions on near-identical categories in 2016 and 2018. Place Clichy (talk) 10:36, 25 May 2020 (UTC)
Delete per nom. Plus not all sitcoms are filmed, many have been taped. Starcheerspeaksnewslostwars^{Talk to me} 19:23, 25 May 2020 (UTC)
Delete Irrelevant to a sitcom's setting or subject matter. Dimadick (talk) 10:53, 26 May 2020 (UTC)
DElete -- It is also difficult to tell shows with a live audience from those with canned laughter. Peterkingiron (talk) 15:37, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

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== Category:Ships of the South Carolina Navy ==

:The result of the discussion was: delete. bibliomaniac 1 5 00:22, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

:* Propose Deleting :Category:Military of South Carolina

::* Propose Deleting :Category:Naval ships of South Carolina

:::* Propose Deleting :Category:Ships of the South Carolina Navy

::* Propose Deleting :Category:Military equipment of South Carolina

:Nominator's rationale: Per WP:NONDEFINING (WP:TRIVIALCAT)

:These categories are like a Russian nesting doll: you keep clicking but the only article is the ship Indien (1778) which is already well categorized. During the Revolutionary War, the future state briefly had its own South Carolina Navy before it was consolidated with the Continental Navy and, while these categories make sense for independent countries, it's a lot of overhead for an interim political status. (This nomination is separate from the standard Category:Military in South Carolina which is well populated.) - RevelationDirect (talk) 00:38, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

Delete per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 04:40, 25 May 2020 (UTC)
Delete per nom. Place Clichy (talk) 10:36, 25 May 2020 (UTC)
Delete the rest, but :Category:Ships of the South Carolina Navy might be worth keeping, as South Carolina Navy suggests that there were other ships without articles yet. I must express surprise that a frigate should be armed with Swedish 36-pounders as the article states. English ships of the line had 32-pders in their lower deck, these being too heavy for lighter ships such as frigates. Peterkingiron (talk) 15:47, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

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== Category:United States Curling Association Hall of Fame inductees ==

:The result of the discussion was: delete. bibliomaniac 1 5 00:22, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

:* Propose Deleting/Listifying :Category:United States Curling Association Hall of Fame inductees

:Nominator's rationale: Per WP:NONDEFINING (WP:OVERLAPCAT, WP:OCAWARD and WP:OCASSOC)

:Most of the United States Curling Association Hall of Fame information I found online was within Wikipedia or on the organization site so this doesn't seem prominent. We already have :Category:Olympic curlers of the United States and :Category:American curling champions which closely overlap with the articles which generally mention the award in passing. The contents of the category are already listified here in the main article for any reader interested in the topic. - RevelationDirect (talk) 00:07, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

:*Background We recently deleted a Scandinavian curling hall of fame category with similar issues here. - RevelationDirect (talk) 00:07, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

Delete per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 04:41, 25 May 2020 (UTC)
Delete per nom, per WP:NONDEFINING and WP:OCAWARD. This is not a defining characteristic of these sportspeople, who are defined by their successes in competition rather than by this recognition of those successes. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 10:30, 25 May 2020 (UTC)
DElete yet more NN OCAWARD cases. Peterkingiron (talk) 15:48, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

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== Category:ISAF Sailing Hall of Fame ==

:The result of the discussion was: delete. bibliomaniac 1 5 22:22, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

:* Propose Deleting/Listifying :Category:ISAF Sailing Hall of Fame

:Nominator's rationale: Per WP:NONDEFINING (WP:OCAWARD and WP:OVERLAPCAT)

:The ISAF Sailing Hall of Fame was created by the International Sailing Federation, the Olympic body recognizing for sailing. Being in the Olympics for sailing is definitelhy defining, which is why we have :Category:Olympic sailors. Getting this award later for the same earlier effort is not defining. And, for around half of the winners without an Olympic connection, this award still just reflects other earlier accomplishments in yachting such as the America's Cup or holding a sailing record rather than being the source of their fame and therefore defining. We already have the winners listified here in the main article for any reader interested in the topic. -

:*Background We've consistently deleted Halls of Fame that celebrate the earlier success of athletes at the Olympic Games here, here, here, here, here and here. - RevelationDirect (talk) 00:08, 25 May 2020 (UTC)RevelationDirect (talk) 00:07, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

Comment This not an Olympic-only HoF. The International Sailing Federation (now "World Sailing") has a much wider scope than just the Olympics. And of the 13 people in the ISAF Sailing Hall of Fame, 7 never competed in the Olympics: Olin Stephens, Ellen MacArthur, Éric Tabarly, Robin Knox-Johnston, ~~Dennis Conner~~, Harold Vanderbilt, Peter Blake. That's over 50% non-Olympic.
So in this case, @RevelationDirect needs to do a little more research on the definingness. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 02:56, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

::{{ping|BrownHairedGirl}} 8 out of 13 inductees were related to the Olympics. (You were mistaken with one of your exceptions, Dennis Conner competed in the Olympics, and Peter Blake (sailor) was a high ranking Olympic official.) I pride myself and accurately describing the contents though, so I clarified that there is a minority of winners who are non-Olympic related above. Does the revised nomination give a more accurate picture of the contents? RevelationDirect (talk) 11:15, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

:::@RevelationDirect, thanks for the correction about Conner. However, I can't find anything about Blake being involved with the Olympics. So with 6 out 13 non-Olympic, I think that the non-Olympic set would be more fairly described as "nearly half". --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 11:50, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

::::I counted 7 that competed and 1 official (Blake) but, either way, I updated it to be "about half". (I just edited the underlined section; not sure how to clearly show an edit to an edit here.) When I first went through the cat, I looked at the first half alphabetically (who are almost all Olympic) and not the second half (which are almost all not Olympic. RevelationDirect (talk) 14:03, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

::::* {{ping|BrownHairedGirl}} for clarification, are you opposing the nomination? Marcocapelle (talk) 16:45, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

:::::*@Marcocapelle, I am not sure yet. The original grounds were largely mistaken, and I'll have to scrutnise the articles to make up my mind. I know the topic moderately well, so I am leaning towards deletion, but I'll have to check before deciding. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 19:03, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

Delete per WP:NONDEF and WP:OCAWARD. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:26, 25 May 2020 (UTC)
Delete yet more NN OCAWARD cases. Peterkingiron (talk) 15:48, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

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