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Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2021 January 15#Team broadcaster categories

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= January 15 =

== Category:Films scored by Bharathwaj ==

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: merge to :Category:Films scored by Bharadwaj (music director). (non-admin closure) --Trialpears (talk) 22:40, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

:* Propose renaming :Category:Films scored by Bharathwaj to :Category:Films scored by Bharadwaj

::''Added on relisting, 15 Jan 2021:

:* Propose renaming :Category:Kannada film scores by Bharathwaj to :Category:Kannada flms scored by Bharadwaj (music director)

:* Propose renaming :Category:Malayalam film scores by Bharathwaj to :Category:Malayalam flms scored by Bharadwaj (music director)

:* Propose renaming :Category:Tamil film scores by Bharathwaj to :Category:Tamil flms scored by Bharadwaj (music director)

:* Propose renaming :Category:Telugu film scores by Bharathwaj to :Category:Telugu flms scored by Bharadwaj (music director)

:Nominator's rationale: Match the parent article, Bharadwaj (music director). Kailash29792 (talk) 14:21, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

{{resize|91%|Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.}}

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Zeke, the Mad Horrorist (Speak quickly) (Follow my trail) 17:12, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

  • Rename :Category:Films scored by Ramani Bharadwaj, to match all the others in the parent category. No matter that s/he uses only one name on press releases or film credits, there will be conflicts; it is an incredibly common name! Note the subcategories should probably be merged here, too. We don't usually have things like "Canadian films scores by " and "Quebecois films scores by ". We just categorize music by nationality of the composer. KISS.
    William Allen Simpson (talk) 20:49, 29 November 2020 (UTC)
  • GOF is correct in his 23 November comment. Ultimately it should be renamed to :Category:Films scored by Bharadwaj (music director) per WP:C2D but that will require a fresh nomination including subcats. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:18, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

{{resize|91%|Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.}}
Relisting comment: adding sub-cats.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, – Fayenatic London 20:34, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

:* :Category:Telugu film scores by Bharathwaj has only 2 entries. It should be merged to :Category:Films scored by Bharadwaj (music director), not as nominated. Likewise, all the other subcategories. KISS.
William Allen Simpson (talk) 13:58, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

::* Fair point, merge all is certainly the better option. We do not have e.g. a :Category:Telugu film scores anyway. Marcocapelle (talk) 14:49, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

  • Merge all to :Category:Films scored by Bharadwaj (music director), per above. Oculi (talk) 20:16, 16 January 2021 (UTC)
  • {{ping|William Allen Simpson|Marcocapelle|Good Olfactory}} Although that parent has not been built, there are many similar categories (with both naming formats "film scores" and "films scored"), e.g. see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:PrefixIndex?prefix=Kannada+film&namespace=14, [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:PrefixIndex?prefix=Malayalam+film&namespace=14 Malayalam], [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:PrefixIndex?prefix=Tamil+film&namespace=14 Tamil], [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:PrefixIndex?prefix=Telugu+film&namespace=14 Telugu], [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:PrefixIndex?prefix=Hindi+film&namespace=14 Hindi]. : Category:Films scored by Indian composers may be an easier starting point – you can see that many, although a minority, have sub-cats by language. – Fayenatic London 10:33, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

:* Nice catch! I would be inclined to propose upmerging all of them. Marcocapelle (talk) 10:40, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

:*Agree. So often, we are barely looking at the issue in front of us, re-listed twice, rather than the whole picture. This decision should be recorded as precedent for dealing with the others.
William Allen Simpson (talk) 12:42, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

== Category:Murdered diplomats ==

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: delete. Good Ol’factory (talk) 01:08, 25 January 2021 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Murdered diplomats}}

:Nominator's rationale: Trivial intersection. No notable WP:DEFINING link between the occupation and the manner of death. Not commonly and consistently expected as a professional hazard or qualification. There may have been many years between the occupation and the death, making the link even weaker.

:Note: Sources about the death of a person will often discuss both their occupation and their cause of death. This doesn't make this intersection any more notable than a combination with other aspects often discussed in such notices, such as their number of children.

:*:Category:Assassinated diplomats‎ will remain.

:In this case, there is only 1 entry, who was murdered on vacation by somebody having an affair with his wife.

:William Allen Simpson (talk) 19:02, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

== Category:Murdered educators ==

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: delete. Good Ol’factory (talk) 01:08, 25 January 2021 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Murdered educators}}

:Nominator's rationale: Trivial intersection. No notable WP:DEFINING link between the occupation and the manner of death. Not commonly and consistently expected as a professional hazard or qualification. There may have been many years between the occupation and the death, making the link even weaker.

:Note: Sources about the death of a person will often discuss both their occupation and their cause of death. This doesn't make this intersection any more notable than a combination with other aspects often discussed in such notices, such as their number of children.

:*:Category:Assassinated educators‎ will remain.

:William Allen Simpson (talk) 18:38, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

== Category:Government of the Afsharid Empire ==

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: delete. Good Ol’factory (talk) 01:07, 25 January 2021 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Government of the Afsharid Empire}}

:Nominator's rationale: delete per WP:OVERLAPCAT, this category only contains biographies, which are already categorized in :Category:People of the Afsharid Empire. Marcocapelle (talk) 17:21, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

== Art Nouveau architecture by city ==

File:Symbol move vote.svg Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2021 January 29%23Art Nouveau architecture by city

== Category:American Statesmen ==

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: delete. Good Ol’factory (talk) 01:05, 25 January 2021 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:American Statesmen to :Category:American politicians

:Nominator's rationale: One-article new category that duplicates {{cl|American politicians}} Le Deluge (talk) 16:49, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

== Category:American players of American football by descent ==

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: delete, merging content to :Category:American sportspeople of Mexican descent and :Category:Jewish American sportspeople. Good Ol’factory (talk) 03:18, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting {{lc|American players of American football of Mexican descent}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Jewish American football people}}

:Nominator's rationale: Per WP:OCEGRS, these are non-notable intersections because they are not well-defined topics in established sources. User:Namiba 16:38, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

  • I believe that this category should be here, because there is one for baseball and basketball.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Bigmike2346 (talk • contribs) 2021-01-15 17:31:43 (UTC)
  • I created the football category because there was one for baseball and basketball already so unless all of those are being deleted, with that logic this one should stay — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bigmike2346 (talk • contribs) 2021-01-15 17:34:39 (UTC)

:{{Ping|Bigmike2346}} WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS-UCO2009bluejay (talk) 02:27, 18 January 2021 (UTC)

  • Delete Merge per nom. Please also nominate the baseball and basketball siblings. Marcocapelle (talk) 19:57, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

::Jewish people have a distinct and studied history in both baseball and basketball. See [https://books.google.ca/books?hl=en&lr=&id=qETFBAAAQBAJ&oi=fnd&pg=PR7&dq=Jews+in+baseball&ots=9EwZDKXBgx&sig=m66ECN_MDhUTWHEvzOK7o9Bn7O4&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=Jews%20in%20baseball&f=false] and [https://books.google.ca/books?id=rG01DwAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=Jews+in+basketball&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjlm76Anp_uAhViU98KHf2bBGMQ6AEwAXoECAUQAg#v=onepage&q=Jews%20in%20basketball&f=false] for examples. I would oppose those nominations.--User:Namiba 00:50, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

::Should these be merged into {{cl|American sportspeople of Mexican descent}} and {{cl|Jewish American sportspeople}}?--User:Namiba 00:51, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

:::Upmerging, rather than deleting, these makes sense unless the parent cats are going to be deleted as well. Jweiss11 (talk) 03:01, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

::* Good question. As the parent categories have not been nominated (yet) they should be the merge target for now. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:27, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

  • Keep Mexican Its an underrepresented group of players that gets discussed often. Meets WP:OCEGRS: {{tq|... should only be created where that combination is itself recognized as a distinct and unique cultural topic in its own right.|q=yes}} Some coverage includes [https://www.nj.com/giants/2012/01/victor_cruz_tony_gonzalez_high.html "Victor Cruz, Tony Gonzalez highlight growth of Hispanic players in NFL". NJ.com], [https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/28082110/why-playing-football-how-tony-gonzalez-changed-perceptions "'Why are you playing football?' How Tony Gonzalez changed perceptions". ESPN.com], [https://www.miamiherald.com/sports/nfl/super-bowl/article239637573.html "Hispanic NFL fan base is exploding, so why are only 16 of 1,696 players Hispanic?". Miami Herald]. (Aside: Perhaps category should be renamed to "Latino" or "Hispanic").—Bagumba (talk) 11:34, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

::Bagumba, thanks for your research. I only looked into Mexican Americans. I would be comfortable renaming and broadening the category based on your findings.--User:Namiba 13:48, 23 January 2021 (UTC)

  • Upmerge per Jweiss11.-UCO2009bluejay (talk) 02:27, 18 January 2021 (UTC)
  • Keep Mexican This covers a notable ethnic minority. It is unclear to me if the Jewish category covers ethnicity or religion. Dimadick (talk) 12:57, 19 January 2021 (UTC)
  • Delete this is a violation of our ERGS categorization rules.John Pack Lambert (talk) 13:06, 25 January 2021 (UTC)
  • Delete. None of these articles seems to pass the bar set at WP:OCEGRS, WP:EGRS and WP:BLPCAT that the association between their background and their athletic career would be consistently and commonly considered by reliable sources to be their defining characteristic. If the intersection between their background and another activity (e.g. business or entertainment or politics) is more defining, then they should already be in that category. There is therefore no need to merge this non-information anywhere, especially not to the categories for Jewish- and Mexican-American sportspeople whatever the sport. Place Clichy (talk) 16:25, 25 January 2021 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

== Mayors of places in Moldova ==

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: merge. Good Ol’factory (talk) 01:04, 25 January 2021 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:Mayors of Bălți to :Category:Mayors of places in Moldova and :Category:People from Bălți

:* Propose merging :Category:Mayors of Soroca to :Category:Mayors of places in Moldova and :Category:People from Soroca

:Nominator's rationale: merge per WP:SMALLCAT, just one or two articles in each of these categories and they are not part of a large overall accepted sub-categorization scheme. Marcocapelle (talk) 15:27, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

== Parliamentary Private Secretaries ==

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: delete all except :Category:Parliamentary Private Secretaries to the Prime Minister, for which there was no consensus to delete. Good Ol’factory (talk) 02:59, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Parliamentary Private Secretaries}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Parliamentary Private Secretaries to the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Parliamentary Private Secretaries to the Deputy Prime Minister}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Parliamentary Private Secretaries to the Department for Education}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Parliamentary Private Secretaries to the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Parliamentary Private Secretaries to the Foreign and Commonwealth Office}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Parliamentary Private Secretaries to the Department for International Development}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Parliamentary Private Secretaries to the Leader of the Opposition}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Parliamentary Private Secretaries to HM Treasury}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Parliamentary Private Secretaries to the Attorney General's Office (United Kingdom)}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Parliamentary Private Secretaries to the Cabinet Office}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Parliamentary Private Secretaries to the Chairman of the Labour Party}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Parliamentary Private Secretaries to the Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Parliamentary Private Secretaries to the Home Office}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Parliamentary Private Secretaries to the Ministry of Defence (United Kingdom)}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Parliamentary Private Secretaries to the Ministry of Justice (United Kingdom)}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Parliamentary Private Secretaries to the Northern Ireland Office}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Parliamentary Private Secretaries to the Office of the Leader of the House of Commons}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Parliamentary Private Secretaries to the Office of the Leader of the House of Lords}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Parliamentary Private Secretaries to the Prime Minister}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Parliamentary Private Secretaries to the Wales Office}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Parliamentary Private Secretary to the Chairman of the Conservative Party}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Parliamentary Private Secretaries to the Department of Trade and Industry (United Kingdom)}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Parliamentary Private Secretaries to the Department for Work and Pensions}}

: Nominator's rationale: follow-up to {{section link|Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2021 January 6|Parliamentary private secretaries}}, which shows a building consensus that these unpaid pre-ministerial positions are not WP:DEFINING. Note that all members are already MPs, and that topic articles are already at {{C|Ministerial positions in the Government of the United Kingdom}}, no content will therefore be orphaned. {{Ping|BrendaJones54|Peterkingiron|Marcocapelle|Oculi|Johnbod|RevelationDirect|Justus Nussbaum|Rathfelder|William Allen Simpson|Good Olfactory}} pinging contributors to previous discussion. Place Clichy (talk) 13:10, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

  • I agree. These positions are just a step on the ladder. Not very significant in themselves. Rathfelder (talk) 14:03, 15 January 2021 (UTC)
  • Delete per earlier discussion. Marcocapelle (talk) 14:26, 15 January 2021 (UTC)
  • Keep they may not be defining for those for whom they begin a long ministerial career, but they are for the many who don't progress any higher. The holders are part of the government rather than just back-benchers, and this is surely defining. Johnbod (talk) 15:22, 15 January 2021 (UTC)
  • : For MPs who will be PPS but never minister, they will remain in history as MPs, not PPS, or at least that is the short description that any biography will give them. This is the essence of WP:CATDEF. Per WP:CLNT this topic is good for list articles, not categories. Place Clichy (talk) 12:43, 16 January 2021 (UTC)
  • Delete all except PPS to Prime Minister A PPS - attached either to a Cabinet Minister or more generally attached to a Department- often has a significant role in the development of policy for their minister/department. I also note that Parliamentary Private Secretary to the Prime Minister is notible enough to have it's own article, so should surely have a category for them at the bare minimum. PoliceSheep99 (talk) 19:36, 15 January 2021 (UTC)
  • Delete Nearly All/Neutral on PPS to the PM These people are already defined by being Members of Parliament and categorizing by these roles is non-defining. If they were major influencers to financial/foreign/transportation or other policies, that can be covered in the article. (I'll defer to PoliceSheep99 about the importance of the Parliamentary Private Secretary to the Prime Minister.) - RevelationDirect (talk) 21:44, 15 January 2021 (UTC)
  • Delete all — Thanks for checking that nobody is orphaned.
    William Allen Simpson (talk) 02:00, 16 January 2021 (UTC)
  • Delete all no point to category. 92.20.54.122 (talk) 18:34, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

== Greek crossroads, neighborhoods, streets, and villages ==

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: no consensus. Good Ol’factory (talk) 02:40, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

We have had a problem with re-creation of categories after deletion, by subtle change of the 'o' in "from", in all cases by {{lu|Antondimak}}:

;Didymoteicho

  • {{lc|Category:People from Didymoteicho (municipality)}}
  • {{lc|Category:People frοm Didymoteicho (municipality)}}

:* Propose deleting/upmerging {{lc|People from Didymoteicho}}

;Fyli

  • {{lc|Category:People from Fyli (municipality)}}
  • {{lc|Category:People frοm Fyli (municipality)}}

:* Propose deleting/upmerging {{lc|People from Fyli}}

:* Propose deleting/upmerging {{lc|People from Zefyri}}

; Katerini

  • {{lc|People from Katerini (municipality)}}
  • {{lc|People frοm Katerini (municipality)}}

:* Propose deleting/upmerging {{lc|People from Katerini}}

; Ioannina

  • {{lc|People from Ioannina (municipality)}}
  • {{lc|People frοm Ioannina (municipality)}}

:* Propose deleting/upmerging {{lc|People from Pamvotida}}

:* Propose deleting/upmerging {{lc|People from Pierioi}}

:Nominator's rationale: WP:SMALLCAT. We don't need any categorization by insignificant crossroads, municipalities, neighborhoods, streets, and villages. These should be grouped into larger areas, usually called "regions" in templates. So-called "regional units", "municipal units", and other intermediate and lower level divisions should be removed.

:Moreover, any persons who have no references citing where they notably lived should never be categorized by such places.

  • See also:

:*Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2020 December 4#Category:People from Ioannina (municipality)

:*Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2020 December 4#Category:People from Katerini (municipality)

:*Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2020 December 6#Category:People from Fyli (municipality)

:*Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2020 December 15#Category:People frοm Arta (municipality)

:*Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2021 January 13#Greek crossroads, neighborhoods, streets, and villages

:*Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2021 January 14#Greek crossroads, neighborhoods, streets, and villages

:William Allen Simpson (talk) 12:16, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

  • Comment The rationale here is factually false, yet the nominator keeps repeating it. There are currently no categories about "Greek crossroads, neighborhoods, streets, and villages". These are grouped into larger areas, which we could call regions. What is proposed is an extreme option where there will only be categories about super-regions, called "regional units" in Greece. Since the nominator does not seem to have a solid understanding of Greek geography, he says "So-called "regional units" [...] should be removed", despite in fact proposing that regional units be retained. Anyway, there will not be a discussion on that, as it has already been explained, and it's been proven that this is not the issue. There is a single actual issue which hasn't been debunked already, and on which we should focus if we want to have an actual discussion. The reason for the merging/deletion of this categories is that they do not contain enough articles, so they should be deleted under WP:SMALLCAT. The response to that the categories are currently growing, so this is not in fact a case of WP:SMALLCAT. Simple as that. --Antondimak (talk) 13:21, 15 January 2021 (UTC)
  • When they actually grow significantly we will recreate them. At present there are hundreds of Greek people categories which contain no more than a couple of articles, and often not even that - just a a couple of sub categories which also contain no more than a couple of articles. What you call Greek geography is largely based on administrative boundaries, which were all changed in 2011 and which were not significant in the lives of most of the subjects. Rathfelder (talk) 14:08, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

:*Things like prefectures not being metropolitan areas and Mikra Vrangiana not being in Agrafa don't depend on administrative changes, but on geography. The administrative changes that happened in 2011 didn't change any of the divisions, they just changed the names (demoi->demotikes enotetes) and administrative responsibilities. It was and is a good way to categorise based on geography. Saying they will be recreated, apart from not being typical as per WP:SMALLCAT, is very hopeful. Who is going to put the time to take on this massive job? What I did up to now was that I put an insane amount of work for something very few people see, partly to kill time, and because for some weird reason I enjoyed contributing, and using my knowledge to help in some way. As I have explained, what is proposed increases the algorithm's (that of updating the structure) complexity. Who will you find to do it again? Who will be insane enough to put 10 times the amount of time I did into this? Judging from sheer frequency of mistakes I have seen people making throughout this whole process, I understand that for a non-Greek person to do it properly it will also take even longer. I saw what happened last time, when the categories merged and remained broken, and nobody noticed it or cared to fix them. Not to mention that what is proposed now, upmerging to regions, essentially means nuking the whole project, and isn't done for any country in Wikipedia as far as I'm aware. It's simply vindictive. It would also mean either destroying the already viable categories too, or keeping a structure so uneven it would basically be useless. I mean it would already be useless regardless, Greek regions are so general they don't mean much. Many Greeks don't even know what the regions are. Everyone knows the general area they come from, and that's what matters to them. I'm partly from Kastelli Pediadas (municipal unit). The place doesn't matter exactly, I won't say I'm from the city of Kastelli, or from Mathia, or from Polythea, as my family are scattered across different towns and villages, and what pretty much everyone in Greece does. That's another reason I didn't categorise all the way down to communities, in which case the categories would actually be "Greek crossroads, neighborhoods, streets, and villages". I would also however never say I'm from Minoa Pediadas (municipality), and nobody would say they're from Archanes-Asterousia. These wider categories don't mean much to people, that's why the first time I said I wasn't completely opposed to merging, but we would have to downmerge. Moreover, right now articles in higher level categories exist, and it actually means something! It's usually people from Byzantine-Ottoman times, for whom we don't know exactly where they're from, only a "range". --Antondimak (talk) 16:30, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

:*{{U|Marcocapelle}}, the redlinks were speedily deleted G4. I'll nominate any remaining in the future. This nomination focuses on those that were recreated/repopulated after the prior deletion/merge discussions.
William Allen Simpson (talk) 17:58, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

:*Also, as we'll discuss in the future, "regional unit" is an inexact nomenclature. Literally, they are "peripheries", otherwise known in English as "suburbs". We don't categorize people from suburbs of Chicago, or group suburbs of Chicago, no matter how many. There's no good reason to start dividing East/West/etc. Athens. Moreover, US suburbs are cities and townships with elected governments. Regional units of Greece have no elected government. They are at level 1.5 in the Kallikratis Plan. The governments are at the regional and municipality levels, so that's what we should use too. We can worry IFF the regional article count starts approaching 200.
William Allen Simpson (talk) 18:09, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

::*Regional units are not the "peripheries". Regions are the "peripheries". Also "peripheries" definitely doesn't mean suburb. We went from "prefectures are metropolitan areas" to "regions are suburbs". I wonder what your reaction will be when you find out the entirety of Greece is made out of thirteen "suburbs". Who knew Greece is a city? Epirus is a "suburb". Pyrrhus invaded Rome with the full might of his suburb. --Antondimak (talk) 19:29, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

::*I have put a note in WikiProject Greece so that there can be more Greeks involved apart from myself. If there isn't any interest, I will just keep watching these discussions because they are hilarious. And you win, nobody uses the categories anyway, I can let some of them get destroyed. --Antondimak (talk) 19:36, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

::* Antondimak is right. The whole of Greece is divided in regional units as a second level administrative division, both in rural and urban areas, so it has nothing to do with suburbs. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:24, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

:::* You give me hope this may not turn into a complete mess after my withdrawal (the category structure that is, the discussion is already a mess). As I have said I will always be available to help if asked. --Antondimak (talk) 13:03, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

:::*Marcocapelle, "Thirteen administrative regions form the second-level unit of government." Regional units are not a "second level administrative division". Neither are they equivalent to "states", as Antondimak has previously stated. In the metropolitan areas they are suburbs, in the rural areas they no longer have any meaning. Regional units are shoehorned under administrative regions, and do not exist on their own. They have no government, no legislature, no judiciary. See also Municipalities and communities of Greece.
William Allen Simpson (talk) 02:15, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

::::* There are actually 74 regional units as the second level division. Whether or not these units have a lot of executional power is wholly irrelevant for this discussion because it is not the regional unit categories that are nominated. If you want to get rid of them you should start a fresh nomination. For now, these regional unit categories exist, thus they are the appropriate merge target. I can understand Antondimak using the word "hilarious" because you are making a mess of your own nomination, while that is completely unnecessary. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:44, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

:::::*Then I don't understand your use of "second level". I've pointed to the articles that there are 3 levels, and "regional unit" isn't one of them. Perhaps there's confusion about the difference between "administrative regions" and "regional units"? Both Rathfelder and I have tried to nominate vertical slices, instead of horizontal. As expressed previously, I'd expected that as we remove the lower levels, recategorizing relevant cities appropriately into their regions, the regional units would become empty. If you've prefer horizonal, we could discuss eliminating all the regional units at once. But that's a lot of work, and might lead to TrainWreck.
William Allen Simpson (talk) 13:36, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

::::::* Let's first start with facts. Greece is divided in 13 administrative regions as the first level division, in 74 regional units as the second level division, in 325 subregional entities confusingly named municipalities as the third level division. Below that we have former (smaller) municipalities and we have populated places (towns and villages).

::::::: Now starting from the bottom in terms of what is desirable for Wikipedia categories. Wherever reasonably possible (i.e. at least 5 articles), I would suggest keeping the "people from populated places" categories, simply because that is the most tangible classification in real life. That is why I said keep :Category:People from Didymoteicho and :Category:People from Katerini. But unfortunately with many small towns and villages that leads to excessive smallcats, and I am quite doubtful about Antondimak's claim that small town and villages categories can easily be populated by new articles to be written. So in my view they need to be upmerged to the next level, i.e. to municipality level. But even most municipalities will remain too small, so they need to be upmerged to the next level too, to regional units. Fyli is a municipality, so that is why the nominated :Category:People from Fyli needs to be upmerged to :Category:People from West Attica.

::::::: Ultimately I expect we can get rid of the entire municipality level (while keeping cities and bigger towns), but I am not so sure that the regional unit should be entirely removed. For now, imho, the focus should be on upmerging villages, small towns and municipalities to regional units while leaving the issue of the regional units as such for later. If you User:William Allen Simpson, on the other hand, would insist on discussing villages, small towns, municipalities and regional units together, you should nominate (in the case of Fyli) :Category:People from West Attica too, but that could easily lead to a trainwreck.

::::::: {{ping|Antondimak}} while the two of us are/were fundamentally in disagreement, I would still appreciate if you keep reading this and add comments if you think it's important. Marcocapelle (talk) 16:32, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

::::::::Your first paragraph is factually correct. I will add, just so it's clear to everyone, the tree is currently one level shy of the bottom. As such, there are no categories for towns/villages/cities (the two Greek metropolitan areas of Athens and Thessaloniki, which have an entirely different structure, excluded). Even in the major ones (say, Patras, Heraklion) there is a single category including them and all nearby villages/towns. This is the structure that's used for most countries. I made before a comparison between Achaea (Greek regional unit/prefecture) and Abruzzo (Italian region). Achaea is further broken up into municipalities, and then municipal units, like Abruzzo is broken up into provinces, and then municipalities (Greek municipalities being roughly equivalent to Italian provinces, and Greek municipal units roughly equivalent to Italian municipalities). Italian divisions, until the municipality-municipal unit equivalency, which is I believe quite accurate, are a bit "higher level". That's because Greece has one more administrative level, making the transition more granular overall.

::::::::I understand you doubt that the smaller ones will be populated besides my assurances, I don't know if there's much more I could say to convince you. There is however one thing we could do if this is to be done in an organised manner, so that it will be a bit easier to recreate the categories at the point that enough articles are already written. That would be adding a comment (<--!-->) in the articles whose categories are deleted. Say a "municipal unit" category gets deleted, and still there aren't 5 articles in the "municipality" category either. As a result the articles end up in the "regional unit" category (I don't believe there aren't any regional unit category with less than 5 articles). We leave a comment with the old path in the articles. Therefore it's easier to check whether a category becomes viable, as we won't have to search all articles each time, and check up the relevant geographical divisions each time. For non-English speakers it may not even be possible to check the divisions, as I haven't found any extensive non-Greek source on the matter (in case any Greek speaker happens to read this, [https://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%94%CE%B9%CE%BF%CE%B9%CE%BA%CE%B7%CF%84%CE%B9%CE%BA%CE%AE_%CE%B4%CE%B9%CE%B1%CE%AF%CF%81%CE%B5%CF%83%CE%B7_%CE%A0%CE%B5%CF%81%CE%B9%CF%86%CE%AD%CF%81%CE%B5%CE%B9%CE%B1%CF%82_%CE%A3%CF%84%CE%B5%CF%81%CE%B5%CE%AC%CF%82_%CE%95%CE%BB%CE%BB%CE%AC%CE%B4%CE%B1%CF%82 this] is a good source), and we could end up with a lot of "Efi Thodi/Vrangiana" situations.

::::::::Since you asked me to, I will keep making comments like that (usually shorter ones), when I have the time, refraining from "voting" (seeing how that turned out). --Antondimak (talk) 17:16, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

::::::::* In other words, there is no exact match between administrative divisions and populated places. Populated places may (almost) coincide with a municipality or with a municipal unit, or (in case of villages) not even with a municipal unit. But in practice it does not really matter. With bigger towns and cities with enough people to populate a category, we can simply keep the existing municipality or municipal unit category, like we can e.g. keep :Category:People from Didymoteicho and :Category:People from Katerini, which by the way are both a subcat of :Category:People by city or town in Greece already. Marcocapelle (talk) 17:43, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

:::::::::*:Category:People by city or town in Greece is a remnant of an older more disorganised structure, not all categories that could belong in it are necessarily there, and there may even be some the other way around. --Antondimak (talk) 18:41, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

  • Just for the record, I am only now becoming aware that there is an ANI discussion about this in parallel. Marcocapelle (talk) 17:22, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

:*Yes, this nomination was the result of {{U|JJMC89}} finding even more omicron substitutions. The perversion of our process must not stand.
William Allen Simpson (talk) 13:25, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

:*Just for the record, apart from my explanation, this was an one time event, not what the accuser is making it sound like. But it is pointless now, since even if limitations were to be put (which I don't think they will looking at the facts), I have put more extreme limitations on myself in order to avoid the drama. --Antondimak (talk) 13:56, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

  • Comment some of those categories are about municipal units that became "disconnected" from their equivalent municipality due to the previous disorganised merge. If they were to be upmerged, they would need to be upmerged to the equivalent municipalities, which are all "viable" in this case. --Antondimak (talk) 08:42, 18 January 2021 (UTC)
  • Suggestion A subsequent smaller nomination specifying the target categories for the merger without any speedy deleted cats would be more likely to bring us to a consensus. Maybe someone already wall of text above. - RevelationDirect (talk) 01:41, 24 January 2021 (UTC)
  • Keep. I frankly do not quite get exactly what is proposed here with this mixture of red and blue links mixed in the middle of a flame discussion. I do however consider that categories for people from places in Greece such as Didymoteicho or Katerini should certainly be kept seen the rich history and notability of these places. However Greece did introduce a local government reform in 2010 (the Kallikratis Plan) where many places lost their status of independent municipalities in favour of fewer enlarged municipalities; this came in turn after a previous plan in 1997 had already greatly reduced the number of municipalities: from 5,775 administrative entities before 1997 and 1,033 between 1997 and 2010, this number has been reduced to 325 greatly enlarged municipalities. Regarding People from categories, my first gut would be that it makes more sense to categorize people by actual place, town or village (when notable) makes more sense than categorizing them by the post-2010 municipality. The latter is always a bit artificial, and anachronistic for people born before 2010. On a higher level however for people from towns and villages too small to have their own category, the prefectures/regional units are the level which makes the most sense. This administrative level exists since independence, and corresponds most often to geographic and cultural designations used at any time in Greece history. People from Arcadia, Chalkidiki, Boetia or the Cyclades makes sense whatever the century, which cannot be equivalent to post-2010 municipalities. Anyway, the nominator should bring together a clear proposal of which categories they want to merge, delete or keep with another rationale that people "{{tq|should never be categorized by such places}}". Place Clichy (talk) 16:48, 25 January 2021 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

==Bishops==

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: rename. Good Ol’factory (talk) 00:58, 25 January 2021 (UTC)

:Propose renaming :Category:Anglican Archbishops of Brisbane to :Category:Anglican archbishops of Brisbane

:Propose renaming :Category:Anglican Archbishops of Central Africa to :Category:Anglican archbishops of Central Africa

:Propose renaming :Category:Anglican Archbishops of Kenya to :Category:Anglican archbishops of Kenya

:Propose renaming :Category:Anglican Bishops of Ballarat to :Category:Anglican bishops of Ballarat

:Propose renaming :Category:Anglican Bishops of Dorchester to :Category:Anglican bishops of Dorchester

:Propose renaming :Category:Anglican Bishops of Gibraltar to :Category:Anglican bishops of Gibraltar

:Propose renaming :Category:Anglican Bishops of Lancaster to :Category:Anglican bishops of Lancaster

:Propose renaming :Category:Anglican Bishops of Liverpool to :Category:Anglican bishops of Liverpool

:Propose renaming :Category:Anglican Bishops of Plymouth to :Category:Anglican bishops of Plymouth

:Propose renaming :Category:Anglican Bishops of Richmond to :Category:Anglican bishops of Richmond

:Propose renaming :Category:Roman Catholic Archbishops of Detroit to :Category:Roman Catholic archbishops of Detroit

:Propose renaming :Category:Roman Catholic Archbishops of Edmonton to :Category:Roman Catholic archbishops of Edmonton

:Propose renaming :Category:Roman Catholic Archbishops of Melbourne to :Category:Roman Catholic archbishops of Melbourne

:Propose renaming :Category:Roman Catholic Archbishops of New York to :Category:Roman Catholic archbishops of New York

:Propose renaming :Category:Roman Catholic Archbishops of San Francisco to :Category:Roman Catholic archbishops of San Francisco

:Propose renaming :Category:Roman Catholic Archbishops of São Salvador da Bahia to :Category:Roman Catholic archbishops of São Salvador da Bahia

:Propose renaming :Category:Roman Catholic Bishops of Quebec to :Category:Roman Catholic bishops of Quebec

:Propose renaming :Category:Roman Catholic Bishops of Toronto to :Category:Roman Catholic bishops of Toronto

{{collapse top|Additional categories not in original nomination}}

:Propose renaming :Category:Roman Catholic Bishops of Adelaide to :Category:Roman Catholic bishops of Adelaide

:Propose renaming :Category:Roman Catholic Archbishops of Brisbane to :Category:Roman Catholic archbishops of Brisbane

:Propose renaming :Category:Roman Catholic Archbishops of Canberra-Goulburn to :Category:Roman Catholic archbishops of Canberra and Goulburn (per Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Canberra and Goulburn)

:Propose renaming :Category:Roman Catholic Archbishops of Hobart to :Category:Roman Catholic archbishops of Hobart

:Propose renaming :Category:Roman Catholic Archbishops of Perth to :Category:Roman Catholic archbishops of Perth

:Propose renaming :Category:Roman Catholic Archbishops of Sydney to :Category:Roman Catholic archbishops of Sydney

:Propose renaming :Category:Roman Catholic Archbishops of Boston to :Category:Roman Catholic archbishops of Boston

:Propose renaming :Category:Roman Catholic Archbishops for the United States Military Services to :Category:Roman Catholic archbishops for the United States Military Services

:Propose renaming :Category:Roman Catholic Archbishops of Athens to :Category:Roman Catholic archbishops of Athens

:Propose renaming :Category:Roman Catholic Archbishops of Rhodes to :Category:Roman Catholic archbishops of Rhodes

:Propose renaming :Category:Roman Catholic Bishops of New Westminster to :Category:Roman Catholic bishops of New Westminster

:Propose renaming :Category:Episcopal Bishops of Southern Ohio to :Category:Episcopal bishops of Southern Ohio

:Propose renaming :Category:Roman Catholic Bishops of Leeds to :Category:Roman Catholic bishops of Leeds

:Propose renaming :Category:Assistant Bishops of Leicester to :Category:Assistant bishops of Leicester

:Propose renaming :Category:Assistant Bishops of Leicester (1987–2017) to :Category:Assistant bishops of Leicester (1987–2017)

:Propose renaming :Category:Assistant Bishops of Newcastle to :Category:Assistant bishops of Newcastle

:Propose renaming :Category:Assistant Bishops of Newcastle (1980–2016) to :Category:Assistant bishops of Newcastle (1980–2016)

:Propose renaming :Category:Assistant Bishops of Oxford to :Category:Assistant bishops of Oxford

:Propose renaming :Category:Assistant Bishops of St Albans to :Category:Assistant bishops of St Albans

:Propose renaming :Category:Assistant Bishops of York to :Category:Assistant bishops of York

:Propose renaming :Category:Suffragan Bishops in abeyance to :Category:Suffragan bishops in abeyance

:Propose renaming :Category:Anglican Bishops of Shrewsbury to :Category:Anglican bishops of Shrewsbury

:Propose renaming :Category:Roman Catholic Bishops of Ypres to :Category:Roman Catholic bishops of Ypres

:Propose renaming :Category:Latin Archbishops of Corinth to :Category:Latin archbishops of Corinth

:Propose renaming :Category:Latin Archbishops of Patras to :Category:Latin archbishops of Patras

:Propose renaming :Category:Latin Archbishops of Thebes to :Category:Latin archbishops of Thebes

:Propose renaming :Category:Eritrean Catholic Archbishops of Asmara to :Category:Eritrean Catholic archbishops of Asmara

:Propose renaming :Category:Ethiopian Catholic Bishops of Asmara to :Category:Ethiopian Catholic bishops of Asmara

:Propose renaming :Category:Anglican Bishops of Garissa to :Category:Anglican bishops of Garissa

:Propose renaming :Category:Anglican Bishops of Mombasa to :Category:Anglican bishops of Mombasa

:Propose renaming :Category:Anglican Bishops of Nairobi to :Category:Anglican bishops of Nairobi

:Propose renaming :Category:Anglican Bishops of Assam to :Category:Anglican bishops of Assam

:Propose renaming :Category:Anglican Bishops of Bombay to :Category:Anglican bishops of Bombay

:Propose renaming :Category:Anglican Bishops of Calcutta to :Category:Anglican bishops of Calcutta

:Propose renaming :Category:Anglican Bishops of Chota Nagpur to :Category:Anglican bishops of Chota Nagpur

:Propose renaming :Category:Anglican Bishops of Lucknow to :Category:Anglican bishops of Lucknow

:Propose renaming :Category:Anglican Bishops of Nagpur to :Category:Anglican bishops of Nagpur

:Propose renaming :Category:Anglican Bishops of Nasik to :Category:Anglican bishops of Nasik

:Propose renaming :Category:Anglican Bishops of Dornakal to :Category:Anglican bishops of Dornakal

:Propose renaming :Category:Anglican Bishops of Kanyakumari to :Category:Anglican bishops of Kanyakumari

:Propose renaming :Category:Anglican Bishops of Karimnagar to :Category:Anglican bishops of Karimnagar

:Propose renaming :Category:Anglican Bishops of Central Karnataka to :Category:Anglican bishops of Karnataka Central (per https://csikarnatakacentraldiocese.org/ )

:Propose merging :Category:Bishops of Karnataka Central to :Category:Anglican bishops of Karnataka Central

:Propose renaming :Category:Anglican Bishops of Karnataka Southern to :Category:Anglican bishops of Karnataka Southern

:Propose renaming :Category:Anglican Bishops of Krishna-Godavari to :Category:Anglican bishops of Krishna-Godavari

:Propose renaming :Category:Anglican Bishops of Madhya Kerala to :Category:Anglican bishops of Madhya Kerala

:Propose renaming :Category:Anglican Bishops of Madras to :Category:Anglican bishops of Madras

:Propose renaming :Category:Anglican Bishops of Madurai Ramnad to :Category:Anglican bishops of Madurai Ramnad

:Propose renaming :Category:Anglican Bishops of Medak to :Category:Anglican bishops of Medak

:Propose renaming :Category:Anglican Bishops of Mysore to :Category:Anglican bishops of Mysore

:Propose renaming :Category:Anglican Bishops of Nandyal to :Category:Anglican bishops of Nandyal

:Propose renaming :Category:Anglican Bishops of Rayalaseema to :Category:Anglican bishops of Rayalaseema

:Propose renaming :Category:Anglican Bishops of South Kerala to :Category:Anglican bishops of South Kerala

:Propose renaming :Category:Anglican Bishops of Tinnevelly to :Category:Anglican bishops of Tinnevelly

:Propose renaming :Category:Anglican Bishops of Travancore and Cochin to :Category:Anglican bishops of Travancore and Cochin

:Propose renaming :Category:Anglican Bishops of Trichy-Tanjore to :Category:Anglican bishops of Trichy-Tanjore

{{collapse bottom}}

:Nominator's rationale: Rename. These were part of a longer list nominated in 2011, which resulted in "do not rename" but recommending further discussions. After that, Catholic bishoprics in Ireland were speedily renamed, and Church of Ireland archbishops in 2017 after a careful discussion. A few more of the original list in Europe & N America have been speedily renamed via WP:CFDS, and one in NZ was moved without discussion. These remain to be moved, and are probably no longer controversial, but because of the history a full discussion is better than using the speedy page. – Fayenatic London 10:52, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

== Category:Rolan's Curse series ==

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: delete. Good Ol’factory (talk) 00:57, 25 January 2021 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Rolan's Curse series}}

:Nominator's rationale: 2 games is not enough to make a "series", delete per WP:SMALLCAT. ZXCVBNM (TALK) 08:29, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

  • Delete per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 14:31, 15 January 2021 (UTC)
  • Delete - too small to warrant a category, and considering the last game came out 30 years ago it does not seem likely that series will expand anytime soon.--AlexandraIDV 08:30, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

== Team broadcaster categories ==

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: no consensus to delete, but among those in favour of keeping there is a consensus to rename to "FOO announcers". Good Ol’factory (talk) 03:14, 27 January 2021 (UTC) Postscript: I started a follow-up nomination here after completing the renaming. Good Ol’factory (talk) 03:09, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

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:* Propose deleting {{lc|Arizona Diamondbacks broadcasters}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Atlanta Braves broadcasters}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Baltimore Orioles broadcasters}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Boston Red Sox broadcasters}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Chicago Cubs broadcasters}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Chicago White Sox broadcasters}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Cincinnati Reds broadcasters}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Cleveland Indians broadcasters}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Colorado Rockies broadcasters}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Detroit Tigers broadcasters}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Houston Astros broadcasters}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Kansas City Royals broadcasters}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim broadcasters}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Los Angeles Dodgers broadcasters}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Miami Marlins broadcasters}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Milwaukee Brewers broadcasters}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Minnesota Twins broadcasters}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|New York Mets broadcasters}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|New York Yankees broadcasters}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Oakland Athletics broadcasters}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Philadelphia Phillies broadcasters}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Pittsburgh Pirates broadcasters}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|San Diego Padres broadcasters}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|San Francisco Giants broadcasters}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Seattle Mariners broadcasters}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|St. Louis Cardinals broadcasters}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Tampa Bay Rays broadcasters}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Texas Rangers (baseball) broadcasters}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Toronto Blue Jays broadcasters}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Washington Nationals broadcasters}}

:** Propose deleting {{lc|Montreal Expos broadcasters}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Atlanta Hawks broadcasters}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Boston Celtics broadcasters}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Brooklyn Nets broadcasters}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Charlotte Hornets broadcasters}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Chicago Bulls broadcasters}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Cleveland Cavaliers broadcasters}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Dallas Mavericks broadcasters}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Denver Nuggets broadcasters}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Detroit Pistons broadcasters}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Golden State Warriors broadcasters}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Houston Rockets broadcasters}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Indiana Pacers broadcasters}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Los Angeles Clippers broadcasters}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Los Angeles Lakers broadcasters}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Memphis Grizzlies broadcasters}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Miami Heat broadcasters}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Milwaukee Bucks broadcasters}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Minnesota Timberwolves broadcasters}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|New Orleans Pelicans broadcasters}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|New York Knicks broadcasters}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Oklahoma City Thunder broadcasters}}

:** Propose deleting {{lc|Seattle SuperSonics broadcasters}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Orlando Magic broadcasters}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Philadelphia 76ers broadcasters}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Phoenix Suns broadcasters}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Portland Trail Blazers broadcasters}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Sacramento Kings broadcasters}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|San Antonio Spurs broadcasters}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Toronto Raptors broadcasters}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Utah Jazz broadcasters}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Washington Wizards broadcasters}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Anaheim Ducks broadcasters}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Arizona Coyotes broadcasters}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Boston Bruins broadcasters}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Buffalo Sabres broadcasters}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Calgary Flames broadcasters}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Carolina Hurricanes broadcasters}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Chicago Blackhawks broadcasters}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Colorado Avalanche broadcasters}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Columbus Blue Jackets broadcasters}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Dallas Stars broadcasters}}

:** Propose deleting {{lc|Minnesota North Stars broadcasters}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Detroit Red Wings broadcasters}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Edmonton Oilers broadcasters}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Florida Panthers broadcasters}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Los Angeles Kings broadcasters}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Minnesota Wild broadcasters}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Montreal Canadiens broadcasters}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Nashville Predators broadcasters}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|New Jersey Devils broadcasters}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|New York Islanders broadcasters}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|New York Rangers broadcasters}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Ottawa Senators broadcasters}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Philadelphia Flyers broadcasters}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Pittsburgh Penguins broadcasters}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|San Jose Sharks broadcasters}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|St. Louis Blues broadcasters}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Tampa Bay Lightning broadcasters}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Toronto Maple Leafs broadcasters}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Vancouver Canucks broadcasters}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Vegas Golden Knights broadcasters}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Washington Capitals broadcasters}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Winnipeg Jets broadcasters}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Arizona Cardinals broadcasters}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Atlanta Falcons broadcasters}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Baltimore Ravens broadcasters}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Buffalo Bills broadcasters}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Carolina Panthers broadcasters}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Chicago Bears broadcasters}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Cincinnati Bengals broadcasters}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Cleveland Browns broadcasters}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Dallas Cowboys broadcasters}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Denver Broncos broadcasters}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Detroit Lions broadcasters}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Green Bay Packers broadcasters}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Houston Texans broadcasters}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Indianapolis Colts broadcasters}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Jacksonville Jaguars broadcasters}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Kansas City Chiefs broadcasters}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Las Vegas Raiders broadcasters}}

:** Propose deleting {{lc|Oakland Raiders broadcasters}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Los Angeles Chargers broadcasters}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Los Angeles Rams broadcasters}}

:** Propose deleting {{lc|St. Louis Rams broadcasters}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Miami Dolphins broadcasters}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Minnesota Vikings broadcasters}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|New England Patriots broadcasters}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|New Orleans Saints broadcasters}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|New York Giants broadcasters}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|New York Jets broadcasters}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Philadelphia Eagles broadcasters}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Pittsburgh Steelers broadcasters}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|San Francisco 49ers broadcasters}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Seattle Seahawks broadcasters}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Tampa Bay Buccaneers broadcasters}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Tennessee Titans broadcasters}}

:** Propose deleting {{lc|Houston Oilers broadcasters}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Atlantic Coast Conference broadcasters}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Big East Conference broadcasters}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Big Ten Conference broadcasters}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Big 12 Conference broadcasters}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Conference USA broadcasters}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Mid-American Conference broadcasters}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Mountain West Conference broadcasters}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Pac-12 Conference broadcasters}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Southeastern Conference broadcasters}}

{{cot|Do not exist}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Washington Football Team broadcasters}}

:** Propose deleting {{lc|Washington Redskins broadcasters}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|American Athletic Conference broadcasters}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Big East Conference (1979‒2013) broadcasters}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Sun Belt Conference broadcasters}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Western Athletic Conference broadcasters}}

{{cob}}

Nominator's rationale: non-defining performance categories. Kept being added and deleted from radio and TV station articles by User:210.185.171.101. Need help with tagging. Mvcg66b3r (talk) 00:27, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

  • {{A Note}} Now taged. Six nominated categories do not exist. — JJMC89 (T·C) 03:53, 15 January 2021 (UTC)
  • Delete All Most teams have a single person who is "the" voice of that team, like Vin Scully with the Dodgers, but such articles are a small minority within these categories. Overwhelmingly, these contain articles about people in the broadcast industry who had multiple jobs during their career and this was one of them. We don't categorize by each station on air talent worked for and we shouldn't do so here, per WP:PERFCAT. - RevelationDirect (talk) 12:00, 15 January 2021 (UTC)
  • Delete, the categories contain an odd mix of biographies and media channels, being broadcaster for a team is defining for neither of them. Marcocapelle (talk) 14:35, 15 January 2021 (UTC)
  • Keep WP:NONDEF doesn't apply. Being a broadcaster for a team is a defining trait, as broadcasting is their job (it is what makes them notable). As an example, {{cl|Green Bay Packers broadcasters}} does the same thing that {{cl|Green Bay Packers players}} does. It categorizes people in a specific role that is associated with the Packers. I don't dispute that the categories should be cleaned up (like should media channels be included in the category), but I don't see any reason to delete. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 15:48, 15 January 2021 (UTC)
  • Rename Just wanted to note that I support {{U|Bagumba}}'s rename proposal below. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 19:17, 19 January 2021 (UTC)
  • Keep per what Gonzo_fan2007 said pretty much. This is just the equivalent of a players category. It defines them it as being broadcasters to a specific team. And yes some cleanup could probably be done. But the categories themselves are not the issue. -DJSasso (talk) 16:02, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

:*I am also ok with rename per below. -DJSasso (talk) 13:31, 18 January 2021 (UTC)

  • Delete per WP:PERFCAT. I think User:RevelationDirect summarized well the opinion I share on this too. But to add, it's a slippery slope if these exist. There might be some, rarer instances of broadcasting being how the person is known and thus is much more apples-to-apples with the athlete categories mentioned above. But in reality, I argue, the vast majority of broadcasters are better known in other capacities, with broadcasting being a secondary notability. SportsGuy789 (talk) 22:06, 15 January 2021 (UTC)
  • Delete per WP:PERFCAT. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 23:08, 15 January 2021 (UTC)
  • Keep, as a method of categorizing the people. I don't think these are fundamentally different from team player and team coach categories. If anything, the average broadcasting personality has been with a team much longer than the average player. (A player only needs to appear in one game to qualify for the team player category!) I don't have a strong opinion about the TV/radio articles. Zagalejo^^^ 01:12, 16 January 2021 (UTC)
  • Rename with "announcers" instead of "broadcasters". The people are notable for their associations with the teams, just as players are. They are not actors with countless performance roles. A problem stated by the nomination are media stations commingled with these categories. A parent category is :Category:American sports announcers; it would be clearer if the categories were renamed with "announcer" to make it specific that it does not include stations that are broadcasters, only people.—Bagumba (talk) 11:46, 17 January 2021 (UTC)
  • Rename per Bagumba. The broadcast stations themselves may be something I would have to question. But the announcers should be kept as a defining category. We have lists that might need to be renamed as well but that is a different discussion.-UCO2009bluejay (talk) 23:59, 17 January 2021 (UTC)
  • If renamed, the categories should be listed at WP:CFDWM for purging of the stations. Marcocapelle (talk) 21:41, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
  • Rename per Bagumba Gjs238 (talk) 01:06, 22 January 2021 (UTC)
  • Comment it seems if the rename goes forward, we should do better on category naming. A naming convention like :Category:Green Bay Packers broadcast stations and :Category:Green Bay Packers announcers would be what I would prefer, since "broadcasters" is vague in meaning. Also note that "announcers" follows other parent categories, like :Category:National Football League announcers by team. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 19:24, 22 January 2021 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

== Category:ASA Architectural Conservation Award recipients ==

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: delete. Good Ol’factory (talk) 03:06, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

:* Propose Deleting/Listifying :Category:ASA Architectural Conservation Award recipients

:Nominator's rationale: Per WP:NONDEFINING (WP:OCAWARD)

:The Association of Siamese Architects gives out a ASA Architectural Conservation Award each year for conservation or renovations of historic buildings in Thailand. Buildings that win this award are already very prominent so most the articles don't mention the award at all like Assumption Cathedral, Bangkok, Phaya Thai Palace, Bangkok railway station, or any others you want to click on. The contents are already listified here in the main article for any reader interested in the topic. - RevelationDirect (talk) 00:07, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

  • Comment: Hmm. The award serves as a de facto heritage register, so its presentation isn't just a single event of recognition, but often leads to continued interest in the recipient building's status. I think the perception that all the buildings are already prominent may be due to lack of coverage. For some notable buildings (many of which don't yet have articles), the award is a defining characteristic that helped put them in public spotlight. That said, the same might not be the case for the majority of potential members. --Paul_012 (talk) 13:54, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

:: Some awards end up in a Catch-22 where, when the award is defining enough for a category, the winners aren't notable enough for an article and, when the winners are notable enough for an article, the award is no longer defining. - RevelationDirect (talk) 21:34, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

  • Delete per WP:OCAWARD, the award is not a consistently defining characteristic of the articles in this category. Marcocapelle (talk) 14:39, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

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== Category:Recipients of the 18 May 1811 Medal ==

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: delete. Good Ol’factory (talk) 00:55, 25 January 2021 (UTC)

:* Propose Deleting/Listifying :Category:Recipients of the 18 May 1811 Medal

:Nominator's rationale: Per WP:NONDEFINING (WP:OCAWARD)

:The 18 May 1811 Medal is a military award from Uruguay, although it seems to be given mostly to high ranking foreign soldiers. It must not be a very defining award because, of the 3 articles in this category, not a single one even mentions it. There wasn't a list so I created one right here in the main article for any reader interested in the topic. - RevelationDirect (talk) 00:07, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

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== Category:Killed journalists in Slovakia ==

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: delete (categories were empty at the time of this close). Good Ol’factory (talk) 00:54, 25 January 2021 (UTC)

:* Propose renaming :Category:Killed journalists in Slovakia to :Category:Assassinated Slovak journalists

:* Propose renaming :Category:Murdered Nepalese journalists to :Category:Assassinated Nepalese journalists

:* Propose renaming :Category:Murdered Somalian journalists to :Category:Assassinated Somalian journalists

:Nominator's rationale: Fairly clearly assassinations because they were journalists. Rathfelder (talk) 00:02, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

:*{{Ping|Rathfelder}} actually you [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Category:Journalists_killed_in_Somalia&diff=1001035142&oldid=999909204 accidentally deleted] :Category:Journalists killed while covering military conflicts there?
William Allen Simpson (talk) 10:58, 18 January 2021 (UTC)

::*I did mess it up. But I've moved all the articles into :Category:Journalists killed while covering the Somali Civil War so :Category:Journalists killed in Somalia can go. Rathfelder (talk) 11:02, 18 January 2021 (UTC)

:::*Aha, I see that category already existed. Thanks for moving the articles into the correct category!
William Allen Simpson (talk) 11:05, 18 January 2021 (UTC)

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