Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2022 July 6

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: speedily renamed already using WP:CFDS. – Fayenatic London 21:13, 10 July 2022 (UTC)

:* Propose renaming :Category:X-Men (TV series) to :Category:X-Men: The Animated Series

:Nominator's rationale: Per title of main article, X-Men: The Animated Series Indagate (talk) 21:10, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

::This is C2D. Gonnym (talk) 21:22, 7 July 2022 (UTC)

:*Speedy rename this and subcats, per above. Trailblazer101 (talk) 04:39, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkltalk 17:37, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Characters in works by Geoffrey of Monmouth}}

:Nominator's rationale: Non-defining, not to mention most of these figures are actually just historical persons. ★Trekker (talk) 20:46, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

• I am not sure, perhaps we can re-design this to :Category:Legendary people first mentioned by Geoffrey of Monmouth. Marcocapelle (talk) 03:26, 7 July 2022 (UTC)
• Delete (possibly listify first). Geoffrey of Monmouth is not reputable as a historian, as his work contains much that is mere myth. This has the feel of a performance by performer type category, which we do not allow. Peterkingiron (talk) 17:38, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: soft merge (non-admin closure) Marcocapelle (talk) 03:46, 14 July 2022 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:The Fireman (band) to :Category:Paul McCartney

:Nominator's rationale: With only 3 albums already in an appropriate set category, this eponymous category is unnecessary. Can merge to parent or delete outright. Starcheerspeaksnewslostwars^{Talk to me} 18:10, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkltalk 17:38, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Auskick participants}}

:Nominator's rationale: Non-defining characteristic. Generally impossible to find a reliable source to confirm that they were Auskick participants, and given that about [http://www.footyindustry.com/?page_id=4125 200000 kids participate] each year, it is not at all defining. The-Pope (talk) 13:23, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

• Delete per nom. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 14:26, 6 July 2022 (UTC)
• Delete. Agree with nom, it's a non defining characteristic - participation in a non-selective entry children's sport program - and impossible to verify or populate with any degree of completeness. Aspirex (talk) 23:14, 6 July 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose. The NAB provides this info on players every single AFL round in the AFL record and VFL record. Auskick keeps registration data and also publishes this on collectable AFL Footy cards. Only around 10-20% of AFL players started their careers with Auskick, it is not a huge figure but it forms a key part of the pathway for many athletes. A measure of the success of the program is the quality of players it produces. For the athletes that come out of it, the age that they started playing is often a key attribute to their later success in the sport. It often also forms the missing link in their choice of sports if they've pursued other sports and then come back to AFL later in their career. If it were to become too large I would propose further breaking it up into states/countries. There are over 450,000 players in Victoria each year and there is a category "Category:Australian rules footballers from Victoria (Australia)".--Rulesfan (talk) 23:17, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

::Comment these sources and approaches apply only for AFL players. This does not work for other sportspeople or non-sportspeople who participate in the program as pre-teens and are not meaningfully defined by that participation. Aspirex (talk) 01:32, 7 July 2022 (UTC)

::Coment if that is a primary objection then could it be renamed Auskick participants who became professional Australian footballers or Professional Australian footballers who participated in Auskick? I think that the age they started playing defines them and is just as meaningful as if they scored a goal with their first kick, played their first game in a Grand Final‎, were born overseas, or are New Zealand Māori ... or any of the other categories currently in use. --Rulesfan (talk) 00:06, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

• Delete, even if it is registered carefully it is still not a defining characteristic. At most convert it to a list, but I can imagine there will be objections to a list too. Marcocapelle (talk) 08:52, 8 July 2022 (UTC)
• Delete as a youth sports programme, participation is not defining. "Australian-rules footballers who participated in Auskick" might be a viable category. Peterkingiron (talk) 17:41, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

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:The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkltalk 17:39, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Stroke-related deaths in Brazil}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Stroke-related deaths in Brazil by state}}

:* Propose deleting :Category:Stroke-related deaths in Bahia

:* Propose deleting :Category:Stroke-related deaths in Ceará

:* Propose deleting :Category:Stroke-related deaths in Federal District (Brazil)

:* Propose deleting :Category:Stroke-related deaths in Minas Gerais

:* Propose deleting :Category:Stroke-related deaths in Pernambuco

:* Propose deleting :Category:Stroke-related deaths in Rio de Janeiro (state)

:* Propose deleting :Category:Stroke-related deaths in Rio Grande do Sul

:* Propose deleting :Category:Stroke-related deaths in São Paulo (state)

:Nominator's rationale: Not defining. Death by stroke is common. Only 1 article in most of the subcategories - which if this is supported I will add to the nomination. I would happily get rid of the whole of :Category:Deaths by country subdivision. Place of death, when it is related to disease, is very rarely defining, and tends to be determined by the location of hospitals. Hardly any biographies are notable because of the location of death. Rathfelder (talk) 12:51, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

• Delete cause-of-death cruft. In addition to the nominator's concerns, the entire "Stroke-related deaths" tree should be deleted as a recreation of categories previously deleted per Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2015 June 21#Deaths from heart attacks and strokes * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 14:26, 6 July 2022 (UTC)
• Delete per nom. Lugnuts ^{Fire Walk with Me} 16:31, 6 July 2022 (UTC)
• Comment - this is a container category. Deleting a container category makes no difference to any article and merely leaves its subcats adrift. So as it stands this nom is ill-considered. Oculi (talk) 18:08, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

:* Good point. I have added the subcategories. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:47, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

• I agree with * Pppery *. We need to look at the death related categories and get rid of most of them. But there are rather a lot. Rathfelder (talk) 22:32, 6 July 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose Causes of death are always defining, unlike trivia like occupation and religious beliefs. Dimadick (talk) 13:38, 7 July 2022 (UTC)
• :Cause of death, when disease related, is very rarely what makes a person notable. Rathfelder (talk) 12:26, 8 July 2022 (UTC)
• Delete, this is a trivial cause of death. Marcocapelle (talk) 08:54, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: split. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkltalk 17:45, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:Wars in fiction to :Category:Military fiction

:Nominator's rationale: This category is not defining, while calling something "military fiction" is. There does not seem to be a pertinent reason not to merge the two. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 12:47, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose This is effectively a list of how specific wars have been depicted. Military fiction is just a genre, and is not defining for any of these categories. Dimadick (talk) 13:02, 6 July 2022 (UTC)
• Split to :Category:Military fiction and a new :Category:Fiction by war (name inspired by :Category:Films by war). Categories like :Category:Algerian War fiction that refer to a specific identifiable real-world war belong in the new category, whereas everything else belongs in the parent. {{ping|Dimadick}} Does this resolve your concern? * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 14:26, 6 July 2022 (UTC)
• Split Good solution. Dimadick (talk) 14:37, 6 July 2022 (UTC)
• :I would not oppose this solution either. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 10:57, 7 July 2022 (UTC)
• Split per all. More clear and would be consistent with "Films by war". Good compromise. Jontesta (talk) 14:58, 7 July 2022 (UTC)
• Split per above. See also this other nomination for which I proposed the same split. Marcocapelle (talk) 09:00, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

:* Further comment: after merging a subcategory into it, as proposed in this other nomination, this category will consist of a huge amount of subcategories so that an extra layer :Category:Fiction by war will be useful for navigation. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:30, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose per Dimadick. These are not the same thing at all. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:10, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

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:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: rename. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkltalk 17:46, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

:* Propose renaming :Category:Neanderthals in fiction to :Category:Fiction about neanderthals

:Nominator's rationale: Per WP:NONDEF, works in this category should specifically be about neanderthals. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 10:59, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

• Rename per nom. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 14:26, 6 July 2022 (UTC)
• Support as clearer and more defining. Jontesta (talk) 14:55, 7 July 2022 (UTC)
• Support as a category name phrased more clearly as based on a defining characteristic. Marcocapelle (talk) 09:05, 8 July 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose. These are not the same thing. "Fiction about" implies only fiction that is specifically set in the genre. "In fiction", on the other hand, is a catch-all for any article that might be about fictional things vaguely connected to the subject. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:11, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

:* Avoiding vague connections is exactly what the nomination is about. Marcocapelle (talk) 18:18, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

• Support on the presumption that this is an attempt to tighten the scope of the category.John Pack Lambert (talk) 19:15, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

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:The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure) JBchrch talk 21:04, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Heraldry in fiction}}

:Nominator's rationale: Per WP:NONDEF. I can't see sufficient articles here that are specifically about heraldry, if any at all. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 10:52, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

• Delete per nom. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 14:26, 6 July 2022 (UTC)
• Delete as vague. Agree that a clearer categorization would probably be a WP:SMALLCAT. Jontesta (talk) 14:54, 7 July 2022 (UTC)
• Delete non-defining. Especially for Feet of Clay.John Pack Lambert (talk) 19:15, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

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:The result of the discussion was: rename. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkltalk 17:47, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

:* Propose renaming :Category:Mining in fiction to :Category:Fiction about mining

:Nominator's rationale: Per WP:NONDEF, works in this category should specifically be about mining. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 10:50, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

• Rename per nom. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 14:26, 6 July 2022 (UTC)
• Support to make this more clear and defining. Jontesta (talk) 14:52, 7 July 2022 (UTC)
• Support as a category name phrased more clearly as based on a defining characteristic. Marcocapelle (talk) 09:06, 8 July 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose. These are not the same thing. "Fiction about" implies only fiction that is specifically set in the genre. "In fiction", on the other hand, is a catch-all for any article that might be about fictional things vaguely connected to the subject. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:11, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

:* Avoiding vague connections is exactly what the nomination is about.

• Support as an intentional tightening of the scope.John Pack Lambert (talk) 19:16, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkltalk 17:47, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Solitude in fiction}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Films about solitude}}

:Nominator's rationale: What "solitude" means appears to be subjective in the case of this category. Are fictional outlaws or orphans really experiencing solitude in all the works they appear? This category is unnecessary as it is simply a combination of unrelated things that may have elements of being alone (and that is only possibly). ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 10:48, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

• Delete both per nom. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 14:26, 6 July 2022 (UTC)
• Delete both per nom. I don't see a clear definition that would salvage this. Jontesta (talk) 14:52, 7 July 2022 (UTC)
• Delete both I do not think this is defining. Especially considering many fictional orphans end up in over packed Orphanages, they are probably often an example of never finding solitude at all. Many outlaws operate in groups, so the idea that they exemplify solitude is not supported either.John Pack Lambert (talk) 19:18, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: rename. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkltalk 17:47, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

:* Propose renaming :Category:Revenge in fiction to :Category:Fiction about revenge

:Nominator's rationale: Per WP:NONDEF, works in this category should specifically be about revenge. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 10:44, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

• Rename per nom. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 14:26, 6 July 2022 (UTC)
• Support nom, to make this a more clear and defining category. Current category is too vague. Jontesta (talk) 14:51, 7 July 2022 (UTC)
• Support as a category name phrased more clearly as based on a defining characteristic. Marcocapelle (talk) 09:06, 8 July 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose. These are not the same thing. "Fiction about" implies only fiction that is specifically set in the genre. "In fiction", on the other hand, is a catch-all for any article that might be about fictional things vaguely connected to the subject. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:11, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

:* Avoiding vague connections is exactly what the nomination is about. Marcocapelle (talk) 18:19, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: rename (non-admin closure) Marcocapelle (talk) 03:53, 14 July 2022 (UTC)

:* Propose renaming :Category:Songs written by Hannah Wilson to :Category:Songs written by Hannah Wilson (songwriter)

:Nominator's rationale: There is no article for this person, but there is an Olympian and Home & Away character with the same name and the category needs to be disambiguated. Richhoncho (talk) 10:37, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

::Speedy support, I created the category and did not realise this was the case. Its a non-controversial move. >> Lil-unique1 (talk) — 14:11, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

• Support to avoid confusion. - RevelationDirect (talk) 02:10, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

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:The result of the discussion was: rename. ✗plicit 01:32, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

:* Propose renaming :Category:19th-century Russian botanists to :Category:19th-century botanists of the Russian Empire

::* Propose renaming :Category:18th-century Russian people to :Category:18th-century people of the Russian Empire (added 6 July)

::* Propose renaming :Category:19th-century Russian people to :Category:19th-century people of the Russian Empire

::* Propose renaming :Category:19th-century Russian people by occupation to :Category:19th-century people of the Russian Empire by occupation

::* Propose renaming :Category:19th-century Russian actors to :Category:19th-century actors of the Russian Empire

{{collapse top|More sub-categories}}

::* Propose renaming :Category:19th-century Russian actresses to :Category:19th-century actresses of the Russian Empire

::* Propose renaming :Category:19th-century Russian male actors to :Category:19th-century male actors of the Russian Empire

::* Propose renaming :Category:19th-century Russian artists to :Category:19th-century artists of the Russian Empire

::* Propose renaming :Category:19th-century Russian male artists to :Category:19th-century male artists of the Russian Empire

::* Propose renaming :Category:19th-century Russian women artists to :Category:19th-century women artists of the Russian Empire

::* Propose renaming :Category:19th-century Russian architects to :Category:19th-century architects of the Russian Empire

::* Propose renaming :Category:19th-century Russian painters to :Category:19th-century painters from the Russian Empire

::* Propose renaming :Category:19th-century Russian sculptors to :Category:19th-century sculptors of the Russian Empire

::* Propose renaming :Category:19th-century Russian businesspeople to :Category:19th-century businesspeople of the Russian Empire

::* Propose renaming :Category:19th-century Russian dancers to :Category:19th-century dancers of the Russian Empire

::* Propose renaming :Category:19th-century Russian ballet dancers to :Category:19th-century ballet dancers of the Russian Empire

::* Propose renaming :Category:19th-century Russian dramatists and playwrights to :Category:19th-century dramatists and playwrights of the Russian Empire

::* Propose renaming :Category:19th-century Russian educators to :Category:19th-century educators of the Russian Empire

::* Propose renaming :Category:19th-century Russian engineers to :Category:19th-century engineers of the Russian Empire

::* Propose renaming :Category:19th-century Russian historians to :Category:19th-century historians from the Russian Empire

::* Propose renaming :Category:19th-century Russian journalists to :Category:19th-century journalists of the Russian Empire

::* Propose renaming :Category:19th-century Russian lawyers to :Category:19th-century lawyers of the Russian Empire

::* Propose renaming :Category:19th-century Russian mathematicians to :Category:19th-century mathematicians of the Russian Empire

::* Propose renaming :Category:19th-century Russian military personnel to :Category:19th-century military personnel of the Russian Empire

::* Propose renaming :Category:19th-century Russian musicians to :Category:19th-century musicians of the Russian Empire

::* Propose renaming :Category:19th-century Russian male musicians to :Category:19th-century male musicians of the Russian Empire

::* Propose renaming :Category:19th-century Russian women musicians to :Category:19th-century women musicians of the Russian Empire

::* Propose renaming :Category:19th-century Russian singers to :Category:19th-century singers of the Russian Empire

::* Propose renaming :Category:19th-century Russian male singers to :Category:19th-century male singers of the Russian Empire

::* Propose renaming :Category:19th-century Russian women singers to :Category:19th-century women singers of the Russian Empire

::* Propose renaming :Category:19th-century Russian opera singers to :Category:19th-century opera singers of the Russian Empire

::* Propose renaming :Category:19th-century Russian male opera singers to :Category:19th-century male opera singers of the Russian Empire

::* Propose renaming :Category:19th-century Russian women opera singers to :Category:19th-century women opera singers of the Russian Empire

::* Propose renaming :Category:19th-century Russian philosophers to :Category:19th-century philosophers of the Russian Empire

::* Propose renaming :Category:19th-century Russian photographers to :Category:19th-century photographers from the Russian Empire

::* Propose renaming :Category:19th-century Russian physicians to :Category:19th-century physicians of the Russian Empire

::* Propose renaming :Category:19th-century Russian politicians to :Category:19th-century politicians of the Russian Empire

::* Propose renaming :Category:19th-century Russian Roman Catholic priests to :Category:19th-century Roman Catholic priests of the Russian Empire

::* Propose renaming :Category:19th-century Russian scientists to :Category:19th-century scientists of the Russian Empire

::* Propose renaming :Category:19th-century Russian women scientists to :Category:19th-century women scientists of the Russian Empire

::* Propose renaming :Category:19th-century Russian astronomers to :Category:19th-century astronomers of the Russian Empire

::* Propose renaming :Category:19th-century Russian zoologists to :Category:19th-century zoologists of the Russian Empire

::* Propose renaming :Category:19th-century Russian writers to :Category:19th-century writers of the Russian Empire

::* Propose renaming :Category:19th-century Russian male writers to :Category:19th-century male writers of the Russian Empire

::* Propose renaming :Category:19th-century Russian non-fiction writers to :Category:19th-century non-fiction writers of the Russian Empire

::* Propose renaming :Category:19th-century Russian translators to :Category:19th-century translators of the Russian Empire

::* Propose renaming :Category:19th-century Russian novelists to :Category:19th-century novelists of the Russian Empire

::* Propose renaming :Category:19th-century Russian poets to :Category:19th-century poets of the Russian Empire

::* Propose renaming :Category:19th-century Russian short story writers to :Category:19th-century short story writers of the Russian Empire

::* Propose renaming :Category:19th-century Russian women writers to :Category:19th-century women writers of the Russian Empire

:* Propose renaming :Category:18th-century Russian people by occupation to :Category:18th-century people of the Russian Empire by occupation

::* Propose renaming :Category:18th-century Russian actors to :Category:18th-century actors of the Russian Empire

::* Propose renaming :Category:18th-century Russian actresses to :Category:18th-century actresses of the Russian Empire

::* Propose renaming :Category:18th-century Russian male actors to :Category:18th-century male actors of the Russian Empire

::* Propose renaming :Category:18th-century Russian artists to :Category:18th-century artists of the Russian Empire

::* Propose renaming :Category:18th-century Russian architects to :Category:18th-century architects of the Russian Empire

::* Propose renaming :Category:18th-century Russian painters to :Category:18th-century painters from the Russian Empire

::* Propose renaming :Category:18th-century Russian sculptors to :Category:18th-century sculptors of the Russian Empire

::* Propose renaming :Category:18th-century Russian businesspeople to :Category:18th-century businesspeople of the Russian Empire

::* Propose renaming :Category:18th-century Russian dancers to :Category:18th-century dancers of the Russian Empire

::* Propose renaming :Category:18th-century Russian ballet dancers to :Category:18th-century ballet dancers of the Russian Empire

::* Propose renaming :Category:18th-century Russian diplomats to :Category:18th-century diplomats of the Russian Empire

::* Propose renaming :Category:18th-century Russian educators to :Category:18th-century educators of the Russian Empire

::* Propose renaming :Category:18th-century Russian engineers to :Category:18th-century engineers of the Russian Empire

::* Propose renaming :Category:18th-century Russian historians to :Category:18th-century historians from the Russian Empire

::* Propose renaming :Category:18th-century Russian mathematicians to :Category:18th-century mathematicians of the Russian Empire

::* Propose renaming :Category:18th-century Russian military personnel to :Category:18th-century military personnel of the Russian Empire

::* Propose renaming :Category:18th-century Russian musicians to :Category:18th-century musicians of the Russian Empire

::* Propose renaming :Category:18th-century Russian women musicians to :Category:18th-century women musicians of the Russian Empire

::* Propose renaming :Category:18th-century Russian singers to :Category:18th-century singers of the Russian Empire

::* Propose renaming :Category:18th-century Russian women singers to :Category:18th-century women singers of the Russian Empire

::* Propose renaming :Category:18th-century Russian opera singers to :Category:18th-century opera singers of the Russian Empire

::* Propose renaming :Category:18th-century Russian women opera singers to :Category:18th-century women opera singers of the Russian Empire

::* Propose renaming :Category:18th-century Russian physicians to :Category:18th-century physicians of the Russian Empire

::* Propose renaming :Category:18th-century Russian politicians to :Category:18th-century politicians of the Russian Empire

::* Propose renaming :Category:18th-century Russian scientists to :Category:18th-century scientists of the Russian Empire

::* Propose renaming :Category:18th-century Russian astronomers to :Category:18th-century astronomers of the Russian Empire

::* Propose renaming :Category:18th-century Russian botanists to :Category:18th-century botanists of the Russian Empire

::* Propose renaming :Category:18th-century Russian writers to :Category:18th-century writers of the Russian Empire

::* Propose renaming :Category:18th-century Russian translators to :Category:18th-century translators of the Russian Empire

::* Propose renaming :Category:18th-century Russian novelists to :Category:18th-century novelists of the Russian Empire

::* Propose renaming :Category:18th-century Russian poets to :Category:18th-century poets of the Russian Empire

::* Propose renaming :Category:18th-century Russian women writers to :Category:18th-century women writers of the Russian Empire

{{cob}}

:Nominator's rationale: To fit into :Category:Botanists of the Russian Empire. At present :Category:People of the Russian Empire by occupation is not divided by century, although :Category:Russian people by occupation is, which is confusing. The Russian Empire extended from 1721 to 1922, so I'm thinking of renaming all the 18th and 19th century categories, and I'd like to know whether this seems sensible. Rathfelder (talk) 09:23, 9 April 2022 (UTC)

:Oppose there is nothing wrong with the category name. Just make it a subcategory of :Category:Russian botanists, just like :Category:20th-century Russian botanists is Marcelus (talk) 12:35, 9 April 2022 (UTC)

:* :Category:Botanists of the Russian Empire is already a subcategory of :Category:Russian botanists. Marcocapelle (talk) 13:47, 9 April 2022 (UTC)

:** I am aware of that, :Category:19th-century Russian botanists should be just one level lower. Same like categories :Category:20th-century Russian botanists and :Category:21th-century Russian botanists Marcelus (talk) 14:31, 9 April 2022 (UTC)

:*** No, :Category:Botanists of the Russian Empire is a perfectly valid parent of :Category:19th-century Russian botanists. Marcocapelle (talk) 14:52, 9 April 2022 (UTC)

: No, it's not if we have categories :Category:Russian botantist and :Category:Botanists of the Russian Empire, it's logical that they need subcategories: :Category:19th-century Russian botanists and :Category:19th-century botanists of the Russian Empire respectively. The first one will contain botanists of the Russian ethnicty, the second one botanists from the Russian Empire, some characters will fit in both categories, some won't. Marcelus (talk) 15:11, 9 April 2022 (UTC)

• Support, "Russian" may be interpreted as restricted to Russian ethnicity, while "of the Russian Empire" also includes the many botanists of Baltic-German descent. Marcocapelle (talk) 14:02, 9 April 2022 (UTC)
• : And that's correct because it's that what this category is for. The solution you are looking for is the creation of a new category :Category:19th-century botanists of the Russian Empire. Rathfelder is making this changes without thinking, it's pretty clear Marcelus (talk) 14:33, 9 April 2022 (UTC)
• :* A new category is not what I am looking for, per WP:OVERLAPCAT. I just propose to make the category a little more inclusive. Marcocapelle (talk) 14:47, 9 April 2022 (UTC)
• The Russian categories include plenty of Baltic Germans. Some of them are also categorised as Germans and some arent. NB I havent changed anything here. I'm enquiring, really, what the status of :Category:People of the Russian Empire by occupation is, when compared to :Category:Russian people by occupation. Should all the 18th and 19th century Russian categories be subcategories of the Russian Empire categories? They arent at present. Should :Category:People of the Russian Empire be divided into two centuries? Rathfelder (talk) 14:41, 9 April 2022 (UTC)
• The issue is that "Russian" is too ambiguous in the 18th and 19th century. Some editors consider it to be the same as "of the Russian Empire", other editors like Marcelus don't. The ambiguity can be resolved by consistently using "of the Russian Empire" which is unambiguous. Marcocapelle (talk) 14:58, 9 April 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose - the proposal is contrary to the convention within :Category:19th-century Russian scientists. As things stand {{cl|People of the Russian Empire}} is a subcat of {{cl|Russian people}} (by period). There may be some merit in the proposal but it should start with :Category:19th-century Russian people (and ideally list all subcats). Oculi (talk) 19:39, 9 April 2022 (UTC)
• That is a fair point. Marcocapelle (talk) 21:23, 9 April 2022 (UTC)
• Support the extended rename of 6 July. Oculi (talk) 12:08, 6 July 2022 (UTC)
• Support Many subjects of the Russian Empire would not have thought of themselves of been described by others as Russian.John Pack Lambert (talk) 18:09, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

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{{resize|91%|Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.}}
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkltalk 20:51, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

• File:OOjs UI icon add-constructive.svg Support per nom, and to remove ambiguity. ― Qwerfjkltalk 17:10, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

:

{{resize|91%|Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.}}
Relisting comment: Adding the surrounding category hierarchy to the nomination.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, – Fayenatic London 08:02, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

• Note: if approved then all of the existing category names should be redirected, to enable navigation from e.g. C20 siblings using {{tl|navseasoncats}}. – Fayenatic London 09:23, 6 July 2022 (UTC)
• Support all, consistent with everything said above. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:48, 10 July 2022 (UTC)
• Support all -- The Russian Empire was multi-ethnic, so that implying that they were all Russian is wrong. Peterkingiron (talk) 17:45, 12 July 2022 (UTC)
• Support all these are meant to group people by being nationals or subjects of the Russian Empire. A great many such nationals and subjects would identifiy that they were connected with the Russian Empire but would not have self described themselves as Russian.John Pack Lambert (talk) 19:19, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.