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Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 February 13#Biographical works

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= February 13 =

== Category:Belgian independence activists ==

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: rename to :Category:Independence activists of the Brabant Revolution. – Fayenatic London 11:31, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose renaming :Category:Belgian independence activists to
:Category:Belgian people of the Brabant Revolution
:Category:Independence activists of the Brabant Revolution

:Nominator's rationale: rename per parent :Category:People of the Brabant Revolution and to avoid confusion with the much later actual independence in 1830. I haven't listed this for speedy renaming for in case someone has a better alternative for "Belgian". Marcocapelle (talk) 22:52, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

:*modified nomination, as we are all in agreement.
William Allen Simpson (talk) 13:24, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

== Category:Musicals about writers ==

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: delete. – Fayenatic London 11:29, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Musicals about writers}}

:Nominator's rationale: delete per WP:SMALLCAT, currently only two articles in the category. Merging is not applicable, the articles are already in other subcats of the parent categories. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:35, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

== Category:Socialist rulers ==

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: delete (merge :Category:Ba'athists). (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkltalk 10:19, 25 February 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Socialist rulers}}

:* Propose category redirect :Category:Ba'athists to :Category:Ba'ath Party politicians

:** Propose deleting {{lc|Ba'athist rulers}}

:*** Propose deleting {{lc|Ba'athist rulers of Iraq}}

:*** Propose deleting {{lc|Ba'athist rulers of Syria}}

:Alternative:

:** Propose splitting :Category:Ba'athist rulers to
:Category:Ba'athist heads of government of Iraq and :Category:Ba'athist heads of government of Syria

:*** Propose renaming :Category:Ba'athist rulers of Iraq to :Category:Ba'athist heads of state of Iraq

:*** Propose renaming :Category:Ba'athist rulers of Syria to :Category:Ba'athist heads of state of Syria

{{cot|abandoned}}

:** Propose renaming :Category:Ba'athist rulers to :Category:Ba'athist leaders

:*** Propose renaming :Category:Ba'athist rulers of Iraq to :Category:Ba'athist leaders of Iraq

:*** Propose renaming :Category:Ba'athist rulers of Syria to :Category:Ba'athist leaders of Syria

:** Propose renaming :Category:Communist rulers to :Category:Communist leaders

{{cob}}

:Nominator's rationale: WP:ARBITRARYCAT, WP:OVERLAPCAT. :Category:Rulers is currently a child of :Category:Sovereignty suggesting that "rulers" are sovereign. Some are not rulers, they were elected. Some are not socialists, or are distingished as communists. Most are in parallel related categories, not aid to navigation.

:William Allen Simpson (talk) 18:12, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

:{{ping|JayCoop|Fayenatic london|}} 2018 discussion at Speedy.
William Allen Simpson (talk) 18:48, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

:* I am not opposing but straight deletion of the Ba'ath rulers categories could be also be an option. For example Hussein Arnous is already in :Category:Members of the Regional Command of the Arab Socialist Ba'ath Party – Syria Region and :Category:Prime Ministers of Syria, that may well suffice. (Caveat with that: I know too little of internal Middle Eastern politics to make a bold statement that Ba'ath is equally vague as liberal, conservative or socialist.) Marcocapelle (talk) 07:29, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

  • Delete. Politicians and rulers should be categorized by actual regime rather than catch-all terms like socialist which cover too many different things. In turn, if supported by reliable sources, the regime may be placed in an appropriate socialism category. Place Clichy (talk) 11:53, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

:*Delete would also be acceptable. Added to nomination.
William Allen Simpson (talk) 05:50, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

== People depicted in music ==

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: keep Julius Caesar and Cleopatra, rename others to match. For the record, this outcome also fits with retaining "Cultural depictions" at Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2023_February_11#Cultural_depictions.

:The renamings are:

:* :Category:Bonnie and Clyde in music to :Category:Depictions of Bonnie and Clyde in music

:* :Category:Portrayals of Jesus in music to :Category:Depictions of Jesus in music

:* :Category:Robin Hood music to :Category:Depictions of Robin Hood in music

:* :Category:Spartacus music to :Category:Depictions of Spartacus in music

:– Fayenatic London 11:14, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose renaming :Category:Bonnie and Clyde in music to ?

:* Propose renaming :Category:Depictions of Julius Caesar in music to ?

:* Propose renaming :Category:Depictions of Cleopatra in music to ?

:* Propose renaming :Category:Portrayals of Jesus in music to ?

:* Propose renaming :Category:Robin Hood music to ?

:* Propose renaming :Category:Spartacus music to ?

:Nominator's rationale: rename and standardize all.

:Option 1: "X in music" (which I slightly prefer for brevity).

:Option 2: "Depictions of X in music".

:Option 3: "Portrayals of X in music".

:Option 4: "X music" (perhaps the worst option because it may suggest music by X).

:Option 5: "Music about X" (matching "Songs about X" and "Films about X" but with music it sounds a bit strange to me). Marcocapelle (talk) 12:51, 5 February 2023 (UTC)

{{cot|copy of speedy discussion}}

:* {{ping|StarTrekker}} or just :Category:Spartacus in music? Marcocapelle (talk) 21:53, 3 February 2023 (UTC)

::* {{ping|MarcocStarapelle}} Similar categories for Romans and other ancient figures are at :Category:Depictions of Julius Caesar in music and :Category:Depictions of Cleopatra in music, which match their sibling categories.★Trekker (talk) 21:56, 3 February 2023 (UTC)

:::* OK. Marcocapelle (talk) 21:57, 3 February 2023 (UTC)

:* Oppose speedy There is no clear convention in {{cat|Music about individual people}} for the proposed format and I don't think C2A is applicable in any way. Armbrust The Homunculus 17:16, 4 February 2023 (UTC)

{{cob}}

: {{ping|StarTrekker|Armbrust}} pinging contributors to speedy discussion. Marcocapelle (talk) 12:59, 5 February 2023 (UTC)

  • Depictions of _ in music mirrors other depiction categories.★Trekker (talk) 16:39, 5 February 2023 (UTC)
  • Depictions of... seems logical and helpful, although (and I realize that this is not a deletion discussion) I note that "Spartacus" is a very small category, with just three items, all unrelated to each other, and one of them does not clearly belong (at least, the lengthy article about Spartacus (The Farm album) does not provide any information linking it with the historical Spartacus; the only obvious connection is the name). I suppose the motion picture soundtrack could go in this category, if there were such an article. There is an extensive pop culture section of Spartacus, containing several musical items (only one or two with articles) that aren't part of the category—so I suggest that this particular category needs attention! P Aculeius (talk) 15:22, 6 February 2023 (UTC)
  • Music about X — WP:C2C matching parent :Category:Music about individual people, and recent discussion for "Songs about X" (songs are music) and "Films about X".
    William Allen Simpson (talk) 03:26, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

:

{{resize|91%|Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.}}
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkltalk 18:10, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

  • Depictions of _ in music, per Trekker's suggestion. The scope is clearer that way. Dimadick (talk) 15:49, 17 February 2023 (UTC)
  • Depictions of _ in music IMO it's the best option. Armbrust The Homunculus 17:13, 17 February 2023 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

== [[Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth|Polish-Lithuanian]] office-holders names ==

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: keep. However, the first nine may be nominated for speedy renaming to lowercase per MOS:JOBTITLE; I am stating this in case anyone checks WhatLinksHere. – Fayenatic London 11:10, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

:Nominator's rationale: Bundled nomination for renaming Polish-Lithuanian office-holders names, to make them consistent and shorter. Also I propose "Vice-Chancellor" instead of "Deputy Chancellor" as the one used by WP:RS Marcelus (talk) 17:00, 5 February 2023 (UTC)

  • Strong agree. WP:Conciseness is key and it is handier and better to just use "Lithuanian" instead of the more wordy "... of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania" or "Grand Ducal Lithuanian ...". Cukrakalnis (talk) 19:31, 5 February 2023 (UTC)
  • Support this concise solution. Category names are best when kept short. Peterkingiron (talk) 22:51, 5 February 2023 (UTC)
  • Oppose - there is a complete loss of clarity. :Category:Lithuanian Vice-Chancellors would be a collection of (mis-capitalised) university leaders. C2D - follow the article, such as Hetmans of the Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth. C2C: follow the names in the category tree, which is {{cl|Grand Duchy of Lithuania}}. Oculi (talk) 13:17, 6 February 2023 (UTC)
  • :That's very anglo-centric view, because in Lithuania university leaders are called rectors or prorectors. Titles of chancellors and vice-chancellors function in many dfferent types of institutions, political, educational, religious, masonic etc. But "Lithuanian Vice-Chancellor" can only mean vicecancellarius, leader of the lesser chancellery of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania. Marcelus (talk) 15:43, 6 February 2023 (UTC)
  • Oppose - there is a complete loss of clarity. The Grand Duchy and the Commonwealth were completely different entities. Laurel Lodged (talk) 20:17, 6 February 2023 (UTC)
  • :Can you elaborate? They weren't "completely" different one was part of the other, and officials of the GDL were also officials of PLC Marcelus (talk) 21:01, 6 February 2023 (UTC)
  • ::They were different states. You start with two states (the Kingdom of Poland and the Grand Duchy of Lithuania). You end with one state - the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. Obfuscation of these facts should be avoided. Laurel Lodged (talk) 13:01, 8 February 2023 (UTC)
  • :::It's much complicated than that; Kingdom of Poland and GDL formed one state -> PLC, but didn't cease to exist on their own. For examples offices were separate (there was Polish Grand Hetman and Lithuanian Grand Hetman etc.). It's not "obfuscation" but acknowleding the fact that reality is much more complex, and the premodern states functioned on different basis than moder ones. Marcelus (talk) 13:28, 8 February 2023 (UTC)
  • ::::That all sounds like a good reason to keep the current names. Laurel Lodged (talk) 14:26, 8 February 2023 (UTC)
  • Weak support, if none of these offices exists in modern Lithuania then it is not too confusing. Marcocapelle (talk) 22:26, 6 February 2023 (UTC)
  • :None of these positions (hetmans, grand chancellors, grand treasurers and the rest) exist in modern Lithuania, so it would not be confusing. Cukrakalnis (talk) 14:18, 7 February 2023 (UTC)
  • Oppose — WP:C2C and WP:C2D. Misusing Lithuanian demonym for nationality. Checking the articles, roughly half of these persons were not Lithuanian and should not be miscategorized as such. For example, "Field Hetman" Hrehory Chodkiewicz was Ruthenian, and should not be miscategorized under :Category:Lithuanian Field Hetmans. Duchy and Commonwealth are not the same, any more than Republic and Empire are the same. Use the well-known and documented names. Full names prevent editors from accidental confusion that requires cleanup. Cleanup is tedious and time consuming.
    William Allen Simpson (talk) 03:00, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

:*"Lithuanian Field Hetman" was literally his title, that are well documented. Also he was Lithuanian because he lived in the Lithuanian state. Marcelus (talk) 09:30, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

::*Also those Poles, Ruthenians, and Ukrainians became (Little) Russians after they were conquered by the Russian Empire.{{sarcasm}} The Ukrainians themselves seem to have a different view, and seem willing to die for it. Note that we don't categorize Greeks or Egyptians or Britains as Romans after they were conquered either. That's why we have these detailed suffix standards. Keep them.
William Allen Simpson (talk) 11:14, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

:

{{resize|91%|Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.}}
Relisting comment: Tagged categories.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkltalk 18:09, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

  • Comment I'm confused as :Category:Ambassadors of the Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth was tagged for this CFD but a) the category was just created today and immediately tagged for CFD deletion (so why create it?), b) I don't see it listed here and c) the category is empty. I don't know why this category was created just in order to nominate it for deletion. Liz Read! Talk! 01:38, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

:*{{U|Liz}}, that category was mistakenly created by {{U|Qwerfjkl}} during his automated relisting. The original nominator only tagged the first category. Qwerfjkl was just being helpful. :Category:Ambassadors of the Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth to Safavid Iran remains untagged.
William Allen Simpson (talk) 02:10, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

:*@Liz, that category can be deleted, I created it mistakenly as William Allen Simpson says. — Qwerfjkltalk 10:10, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

  • Comment Okay, I appreciate the explanation. Liz Read! Talk! 01:46, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
  • Support generally -- I do not think the objection to vice-chancellor is sound: the British use of the term is very much as local one, due to the Chancellor of universities having become a figurehead position. I do not think LL's objection that Lithuania and Poland-Lithuania are distinct has any merit: one succeeded the other, so that it is quite likely that there was a continuous succession where an office operated only in Lithuania. Peterkingiron (talk) 15:33, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

:*DUPLICATE !vote
William Allen Simpson (talk) 03:17, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

== Category:AC using state parameter ==

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: delete. Categories emptied. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkltalk 10:21, 25 February 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose renaming :Category:AC using state parameter to :Category:Pages using authority control with state parameter

:* Propose renaming :Category:AC using state parameter: collapsed to :Category:Pages using authority control with state parameter: collapsed

:* Propose renaming :Category:AC using state parameter: expanded to :Category:Pages using authority control with state parameter: expanded

:Nominator's rationale: Full name of the template and consistent with :Category:Pages using authority control with parameters and :Category:Pages with authority control identifiers needing attention. Gonnym (talk) 15:20, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

::All these are unneeded and in the process of being emptied and deleted. No point renaming at this stage. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 05:22, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

  • Comment :Category:AC using state parameter: expanded has been emptied. Liz Read! Talk! 01:43, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
  • Rename. They are tracking categories, and liable to be populated again if someone reverts a page or uses the parameter in these ways. If the categories were deleted and later re-created, that would lose the page history and the interwiki connections. – Fayenatic London 08:57, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
  • :They will never be used again. The template has been changed so it will not populate these — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 22:13, 19 February 2023 (UTC)
  • Comment Now :Category:AC using state parameter: collapsed has been emptied. Liz Read! Talk! 01:31, 21 February 2023 (UTC)
  • OK, delete. They are all now empty, and the code that generated them has been removed rather than renaming the categories.[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Module:Authority_control&diff=next&oldid=1137216834] – Fayenatic London 11:04, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

== Category:Basketball venues in Indonesia by city ==

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: merge. – Fayenatic London 10:48, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:Basketball venues in Indonesia by city to :Category:Basketball venues in Indonesia and :Category:Basketball venues by city

:* Propose merging :Category:Gymnastics venues in Indonesia by city to :Category:Gymnastics venues in Indonesia and :Category:Gymnastics venues by city

:** Propose deleting {{lc|Gymnastics venues in Indonesia by province}}

:Nominator's rationale: Unnecessary category layer for one city. –Aidan721 (talk) 15:15, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

== Category:Kabaddi venues by country ==

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: merge. – Fayenatic London 22:50, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:Kabaddi venues by country to :Category:Kabaddi venues

:Nominator's rationale: Unnecessary category layer for one country. –Aidan721 (talk) 15:12, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

== Biographical works ==

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: rename. – Fayenatic London 10:46, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose renaming :Category:Works about individual people to :Category:Biographical works by subject

:* Propose renaming :Category:Books about individual people to :Category:Biographies (books) by subject

:* Propose renaming :Category:Music about individual people to :Category:Biographical music by subject

:Nominator's rationale: rename aligning with parent categories :Category:Biographical works and :Category:Biographies (books), and to clarify that these are container categories ("by"). Marcocapelle (talk) 06:40, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

== Category:Black comedy video games ==

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: delete. – Fayenatic London 10:45, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Black comedy video games}}

:Nominator's rationale: In-keeping with Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2017 March 6#Category:Comedy video games, "comedy" is not a widely used theme or genre applied to video games. "Black comedy", as well, is an original research distinction, without common mention in reliable sources, and is not a "defining" characteristic in all articles I spotchecked within this category. Pinging prior participants {{ping|Hellknowz|The1337gamer|Gamingforfun365|Martin IIIa|p=}} czar 04:27, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

  • Delete per the same argument I had before. Except now it's even more of a WP:CROSSCAT. Articles I spot-checked never even mention it. —  HELLKNOWZ ∣ TALK 11:29, 13 February 2023 (UTC)
  • Delete
    William Allen Simpson (talk) 03:31, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

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== Category:Manitoba radio station stubs ==

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: merge. – Fayenatic London 22:45, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:Manitoba radio station stubs to :Category:Western Canada radio station stubs and :Category:Manitoba stubs

:Nominator's rationale: Underpopulated stub category with no record of approval by WikiProject Stub Sorting. As always, stub categories have a much, much higher price for creation than regular content categories do, and are not justified until there are at least 60 articles to file in them -- much below that, a stub template is only allowed to sort its entries into parent categories, like the proposed targets, rather than getting its own dedicated stub category. And for that very reason, stub categories have to be approved by the wikiproject, and are not free for just any editor to create at their own whim. So {{tl|Manitoba-radio-station-stub}} should just go back to sorting its entries in the same categories it did until this got created in 2021, because there just aren't the numbers to justify a standalone category here. Bearcat (talk) 00:38, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.