Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 October 16#Category:Greenspun family

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: manual upmerge as per Folly Mox. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkltalk 16:44, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Chinese spelling reform}}

:Nominator's rationale: 'spelling' is a severe misnomer Remsense聊 19:11, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

::*Agree with this. Upmerge :Category:Simplified Chinese characters and Singapore Chinese characters into :Category:Chinese orthography and delete the cat. General Chinese is already in :Category:Romanization of Chinese, which is the appropriate merge target for that article. Folly Mox (talk) 00:04, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: manual merge. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkltalk 17:12, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose manually merging :Category:Occitan poets to :Category:Occitan-language poets

:Nominator's rationale: manually merge. Writers/poets should be categorized by language; if Occitan poets write in a different language (e.g. French) there is no point in categorizing them. This is follow-up on this pending discussion, pinging User:Place Clichy and User:Iketsi contributors to this discussion. Marcocapelle (talk) 18:50, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

::Support. per nom Mason (talk) 19:01, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: merge. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkltalk 16:48, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:Yugoslav writers by genre to :Category:Yugoslav writers

:Nominator's rationale: overcategorized; only has one genre in it Mason (talk) 18:40, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

• Merge, redundant category layer. Marcocapelle (talk) 19:01, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: merge. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkltalk 16:51, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:Romani writers by nationality to :Category:Romani writers

:Nominator's rationale: Upmerge this overcat, as there's only one category in here Mason (talk) 18:38, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

• Merge per nom, redundant category layer. Marcocapelle (talk) 19:06, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
• Comment; it's a shame that we are too lazy, me first, to cat Roma(ni) writers by the countries in which they were born and spent their careers. But it is what it is, do as you think is best.--౪ Santa ౪^99° 21:13, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
• :We're not saying that nationality categories aren't worthwhile, just that at present, there's not enough to categorize. I'd love to see this intersection grow. Mason (talk) 03:00, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkltalk 16:52, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Stern family}}

:Nominator's rationale: small cat (n = 2) is a father-son pair Mason (talk) 18:35, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

• Delete per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 19:07, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkltalk 16:52, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Ingersoll family (publishers)}}

:Nominator's rationale: small cat, only 2 pages; a father-son pair Mason (talk) 18:34, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

• Delete per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 19:07, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkltalk 16:53, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Ewing family (publishing)}}

:Nominator's rationale: 1 person in the category Mason (talk) 18:33, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

• Delete per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 19:08, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkltalk 16:54, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Greenspun family}}

:Nominator's rationale: 2 pages, one is the founder of the family (Hank Greenspun) and the other is his company (Greenspun Media Group) Mason (talk) 18:33, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

• Delete per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 19:08, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: merge. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkltalk 16:55, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:Bestselling Sámi authors to :Category:Sámi writers

:Nominator's rationale: non-defining, vague, etc Mason (talk) 18:26, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

• Merge, too subjective. Marcocapelle (talk) 19:10, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: Rename to [Paintings/Sculptures] in the [Bar Museum] by [Fooian] artists (with some exceptions).

• Rename :Category:British paintings of the Museo del Prado to :Category:Paintings of the Museo del Prado by British artists
• Rename :Category:Paintings in the Louvre by American and British artists to :Category:Paintings in the Louvre by British artists
• Split :Category:Paintings in the Louvre by Dutch, Flemish and German artists
• Keep :Category:Paintings in the Louvre by Egyptian artists
• Keep :Category:Paintings in the Louvre by French artists
• Keep :Category:Paintings in the Louvre by Italian artists
• Keep :Category:Paintings in the Louvre by Spanish artists
• Rename :Category:Paintings of the Museo del Prado by Dutch artists to :Category:Paintings in the Museo del Prado by Dutch artists
• Rename :Category:Paintings of the Museo del Prado by Flemish artists to :Category:Paintings in the Museo del Prado by Flemish artists
• Rename :Category:Paintings of the Museo del Prado by French artists to :Category:Paintings in the Museo del Prado by French artists
• Rename :Category:Paintings of the Museo del Prado by German artists to :Category:Paintings in the Museo del Prado by German artists
• Rename :Category:Paintings of the Museo del Prado by Polish artists to :Category:Paintings in the Museo del Prado by Polish artists
• Rename :Category:Paintings of the Museo del Prado by Spanish artists to :Category:Paintings in the Museo del Prado by Spanish artists
• Merge :Category:Sculptures of the Louvre by Flemish, Dutch and German artists to :Category:Sculptures in the Louvre
• Rename :Category:Sculptures of the Louvre by French artists to :Category:Sculptures in the Louvre by French artists (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkltalk 17:04, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose renaming :Category:British paintings of the Museo del Prado to :Category:British paintings in the Museo del Prado

:* Propose renaming :Category:Paintings in the Louvre by American and British artists‎ to :Category:American and British paintings in the Louvre

:* Propose renaming :Category:Paintings in the Louvre by Dutch, Flemish and German artists‎ to :Category:Dutch, Flemish and German paintings in the Louvre

:* Propose renaming :Category:Paintings in the Louvre by Egyptian artists‎ to :Category:Egyptian paintings in the Louvre

:* Propose renaming :Category:Paintings in the Louvre by French artists‎ to :Category:French paintings in the Louvre

:* Propose renaming :Category:Paintings in the Louvre by Italian artists‎ to :Category:Italian paintings in the Louvre

:* Propose renaming :Category:Paintings in the Louvre by Spanish artists‎ to :Category:Spanish paintings in the Louvre

:* Propose renaming :Category:Paintings of the Museo del Prado by Dutch artists‎ to :Category:Dutch paintings in the Museo del Prado

:* Propose renaming :Category:Paintings of the Museo del Prado by Flemish artists‎ to :Category:Flemish paintings in the Museo del Prado

:* Propose renaming :Category:Paintings of the Museo del Prado by French artists to :Category:French paintings in the Museo del Prado

:* Propose renaming :Category:Paintings of the Museo del Prado by German artists‎ to :Category:German paintings in the Museo del Prado

:* Propose renaming :Category:Paintings of the Museo del Prado by Polish artists‎ to :Category:Polish paintings in the Museo del Prado

:* Propose renaming :Category:Paintings of the Museo del Prado by Spanish artists to :Category:Spanish paintings in the Museo del Prado

:* Propose renaming :Category:Sculptures of the Louvre by Flemish, Dutch and German artists‎ to :Category:Dutch, Flemish and German sculptures in the Louvre (nationalities in alphabetical order, as with the equivalent category for paintings)

:* Propose renaming :Category:Sculptures of the Louvre by French artists‎ to :Category:French sculptures in the Louvre

:Nominator's rationale: More consistent with the parent categories :Category:Italian paintings, :Category:French paintings, etc., and the construction "Foo in the Bar Museum" is preferred to "Foo of the Bar Museum" (for which see this CfD nomination from 5 August). Ham II (talk) 07:40, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

• Keep "by fooian artists", more precise and in line with e.g. :Category:Portraits by Italian artists and, more distantly, with :Category:Works by creator nationality. Marcocapelle (talk) 08:11, 24 September 2023 (UTC)
• :Looking at the subcategories of :Category:Works by creator nationality, they oddly don't include any visual arts topics – I suppose because we currently have, e.g., :Category:Italian paintings at :Category:Paintings by country, not :Category:Paintings by Italian artists at :Category:Paintings by nationality of artist. ("Nationality of artist" is a much less ugly construction than "artist nationality".) But you do note the existence of :Category:Portraits by Italian artists, and I can't think of a better way of phrasing that one. It may well be reasonable to move to this convention.
• :There is the existing :Category:Italian sculptures in the Louvre, which would have to be moved to :Category:Sculptures in the Louvre by Italian artists – I don't see a problem there. There are also :Category:Etruscan sculptures in the Louvre (contents: 1 page), :Category:Ancient Greek and Roman sculptures in the Louvre, and five subcategories of :Category:Sculptures in the British Museum where I'm not sure this would work. Perhaps this style could be restricted to medieval and later works, with ancient works kept in the existing style? The only page in :Category:Paintings in the Louvre by Egyptian artists isn't ancient Egyptian but an early medieval Coptic icon, so that would still meet this criterion. Many of the ones under :Category:Sculptures in the British Museum are post-Antique, but perhaps there it would be better to keep the subcategory names internally consistent – i.e., keep them as they are. Ham II (talk) 08:32, 25 September 2023 (UTC)
• Keep per Marco. NLeeuw (talk) 16:12, 24 September 2023 (UTC)
• Rename to "in the 'museum'", but keep "by X artists", per Marcocapelle. - jc37 18:31, 24 September 2023 (UTC)
• :Just to be clear, that's [Paintings/Sculptures] in the [Bar Museum] by [Fooian] artists? Ham II (talk) 08:32, 25 September 2023 (UTC)
• ::Yes. - jc37 18:46, 30 September 2023 (UTC)
• Also rename :Category:Paintings in the Louvre by American and British artists to "by British artists" (and create "by American" upon need). Marcocapelle (talk) 08:43, 25 September 2023 (UTC)
• ::Support that split too. - jc37 18:46, 30 September 2023 (UTC)
• : I support de-grouping the nationalities. Christopher Columbus Before the Council of Salamanca in the Dutch, Flemish and German paintings category is by a German-American painter. Would a :Category:Paintings in the Louvre by American artists with a single article be too small? Ham II (talk) 18:23, 30 September 2023 (UTC)
• :* It was made before the artist left to the United States so having the painting in the German category suffices. Marcocapelle (talk) 21:33, 2 October 2023 (UTC)
• Also split :Category:Paintings in the Louvre by Dutch, Flemish and German artists‎ to three categories for Dutch, Flemish and German, and upmerge :Category:Sculptures of the Louvre by Flemish, Dutch and German artists. Marcocapelle (talk) 08:45, 25 September 2023 (UTC)
• : I also support these changes, upmerging specifically to :Category:Sculptures in the Louvre. Ham II (talk) 18:23, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

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• There seems to be rough consensus in favour of "[Paintings/Sculptures] in the [Bar Museum] by [Fooian] artists" and for splitting up the categories with multiple nationalities, so I'm surprised this was relisted. Ham II (talk) 05:41, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: no consensus. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkltalk 17:20, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose renaming :Category:Latin historians to :Category:Latin-language historians

:Nominator's rationale: It's vague and doesn't match the latin language naming convention. (I'd also be ok with Historians in Latin, although it is clunky) Mason (talk) 22:14, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

• Alt rename to :Category:Latin-language historians from the Roman Empire to match :Category:Greek-language historians from the Roman Empire. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:19, 18 September 2023 (UTC)
• :support. It technically narrows the category, but practically, it won't change the memebership. Mason (talk) 20:27, 18 September 2023 (UTC)
• :Support the original proposal, Oppose the alt (which would expel Sallust, Frugi, Cato the Elder, Hemina, Alimentus, Quadrigarius, Coelius Antipater, the Annalists...} Furius (talk) 20:18, 24 September 2023 (UTC)
• :* {{ping|Furius}} about the alternative, you raise a good point that some of these people lived during the Roman Republic instead of the Empire. However, the same can be said about philosophers in :Category:Greek-language historians from the Roman Empire! So can't we rename them both categories to e.g. "in the Roman era"? Marcocapelle (talk) 06:29, 25 September 2023 (UTC)
• :*:Thinking out loud here: "Roman-era" is ok in the context of Greek material, although a bit vague, but "Roman-era Latin historians" would be a concept of our own invention. The Greek historians category claims that it covers "Greek historians who lived during the era of the Roman Empire (27 BC - 1453 AD)," but it does include some earlier figures for some reason, even though its tree includes the "Hellenistic era" (I'm inclined to transfer the pre-27 BC Greek historians thither).
• :*:Latin historians don't have a tree at all, but there are certainly enough authors to justify one. So, we could have, perhaps, ":Category:Latin-language historians" containing ":Category:Latin-language historians from the Roman Republic," ":Category:Latin-language historians from the Roman Empire," and perhaps another for the Middle Ages to cover Paul the Deacon etc. The former would parallel ":Category:Hellenistic-era historians" and would be useful, since these authors are a distinct category, often studied and discussed separately. Furius (talk) 09:25, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

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• Coments - So first, historians are people. They aren't written in Latin. They write in Latin. I think the confusion here is that :Category:Ancient Greek historians could be interpreted to mean nationality or the language the person wrote in. Same with :Category:Ancient Egyptian historians. (Whereas :Category:Historians from Imperial China doesn't seem to have the issue.) One solution could be simply to merge this to :Category:Ancient Roman historians. But I think that the intent of all three categories is to try to group Historians who wrote in a certain language. Rather than Historians who wrote about a certain country/empire (or were from said place). So probably something like: :Category:Historians who wrote in Ancient X. Where X = the language in question. - jc37 16:18, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
• :Genuine question: is there an "Ancient Latin"? I thought it started at "Classical Latin". Also, both articles in :Category:Ancient Egyptian historians wrote in Greek. Folly Mox (talk) 16:36, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
• ::All fair questions. Part of me is wobdering if all thre cats should just be listified, so that this can be better explained.
• ::If we're planning on keeping these, then I think we need to define the inclusion criteria more clearly. - jc37 16:55, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
• ::The lack of clarity that you identify extends up the category tree... This category is part of :Category:Writers in Latin (along with :Category:Letter writers in Latin‎ and no other genre categories) and in :Category:Ancient Roman writers (along with all other genres). The former tree includes only Latin authors. The latter tree also includes only Latin authors (I see two exceptions, Plutarch and Strabo; there may be a few more).
• ::It seems to me clear that writing a history in Latin is defining. Writing history while being Roman might also be defining, but it is a different thing. Furius (talk) 01:32, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: keep. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkltalk 17:20, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Wattpad writers}}

:Nominator's rationale: Trivial intersection that's non-defining. that feels pretty self-promotey. Do we have WordPresss bloggers? Mason (talk) 14:29, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

::I've never heard of Wattpad before, but it seems to have been (be?) a platform not just a software and almost a genre. This is more like "Instagram poets" as a recognizable thing than "WordPress bloggers". Looking at the articles fo these writers, they do seem to have been famous for their writings on Wattpad as Wattpad. Jahaza (talk) 18:58, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

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• Keep. It does seem that Wattpad is a defining characteristic. For example, Mercedes Ron is described as "known for the Culpables Saga, a trilogy that became known through Wattpad" (emphasis added). HouseBlaster^talk 17:13, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: Delete * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 22:45, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Boran}}

:Nominator's rationale: delete per WP:OCEPON, the category only contains the eponymous article and a subcategory. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:36, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

::Oppose. This category includes a subcategory about her generals. Because the category doesn't cover exactly the same topic, it isn't eponymous. See this text from WP:OCEPON

::{{blockquote| A category that covers exactly the same topic as an article is known as the eponymous category for that article (e.g. New York City and :Category:New York City; Mekong and :Category:Mekong River; Abraham Lincoln and :Category:Abraham Lincoln ). Eponymous categories should not be created unless enough directly-related articles or sub-categories exist. However, this should not be done simply to reduce the number of categories displayed in an article.

::}} Mason (talk) 14:41, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

:* The subcategory with generals is ok and has not been nominated. Marcocapelle (talk) 15:41, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

:*:I know that the subcat hasn't been nominated. I'm using the fact that it exists as evidence that the Boran category shouldn't be deleted. Mason (talk) 19:57, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

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::Support. This is clearly an eponymous category - it has the same name as the article. @Mason, you seem to misunderstand WP:OCEPON.

::Two members is not enough. Qwerfjkltalk 17:30, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: no consensus. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkltalk 17:35, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose renaming :Category:Civil servants from the Ottoman Empire to :Category:Civil servants of the Ottoman Empire

:Nominator's rationale: rename, this belongs to :Government of the Ottoman Empire, i.e. it is a country category rather than a nationality category. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:22, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

::Comment. But it also belongs to :Category:Civil servants by nationality and :Category:People from the Ottoman Empire by occupation, which are both nationality categories. Mason (talk) 17:52, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkltalk 17:37, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:LGBT gods to :Category:LGBT deities

:* Propose merging :Category:LGBT goddesses to :Category:LGBT deities

:Nominator's rationale: Overlapping category (WP:OVERLAPCAT) and maybe WP:OCEGRS; I'm also nominating this one. When I searched looked that the page for Aphrodite, she didn't have anything written about being LGBT. And the more I'm thinking about this I am inclined to propose deleting the entire tree as none of the gods listed have LGBT as a defining characteristic as far as I can tell. Mason (talk) 21:53, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

::*Delete all. Besides WP:NONDEF, honestly, this category looks like nonsense, as Marcocapelle said in their comment. Maybe there's material for a category along these lines, but this isn't it. Edward-Woodrow • talk 13:18, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

::BTW there's another discussion regarding Category:LGBT deities. AHI-3000 (talk) 23:07, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

• What does "LGBT god" even mean? Does it refer to his own sexuality, or is he a god to be worshipped for LGBT issues? The articles in the category barely touch upon the subject. This is probably better for a list, in which a detailed description can be given of any type of LGBT relationship. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:31, 30 September 2023 (UTC)
• Delete all per WP:NONDEF. –Aidan721 (talk) 13:16, 30 September 2023 (UTC)
• Delete all albeit for a different reason. I think being LGBT could well be a defining characteristic. However, this category seems to be currently haphazardly applied to any god where any story exists with vaguely LGBT theme, or unknown other reasons (some modern group writing stories implying that?). Most mythologies don't have a single authoritative source on a deity's deeds, so things like Zeus having contradictory aspects really just means that people in city X had different stories than people in city Y. This makes it very difficult to figure out which attributes are "core" and which are closer to, say, views of specific denominations of a religion. SnowFire (talk) 14:57, 30 September 2023 (UTC)
• {{ping|Bearcat}} you should presumably contribute to this discussion too, since you are the main contributor in the discussion about the parent category. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:09, 3 October 2023 (UTC)
• I originally closed this discussion, but the more I think about this the more I started to disagree with my own close so I have withdrawn it and am commenting instead. The elephant in the room is that the proposed target for a merge (:Category:LGBT deities) is currently at CfD itself. There is support for deletion of all three categories here, but zero support for deleting Category:LGBT deities at its own CfD. I think that the best course of action at this point is to close this as no consensus / keep for now / put on hold, pending the outcome of the aforementioned. That way, we can have a discussion with the knowledge of what the options are for the two categories nominated. HouseBlaster^talk 00:11, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

:* Zero support for deleting :Category:LGBT deities is incorrect, especially when "delete" and "listify" are taken together. But it does make sense waiting for closure of that one before closing this one. If :Category:LGBT deities is not closed as listify/delete then this discussion will probably take another turn too. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:09, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

:**{{yo|Marcocapelle}} I could have been more clear: there was no support for outright deletion. "Delete all" !votes imply "do not merge/listify/etc. anywhere" (at least to me). HouseBlaster^talk 01:43, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

• What I said at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 October 12#Category:LGBT deities, applies here as well - Listify/Delete both so to explain how the deity in question is associated with or related to LGBT/Homsexuality/Bisexuality/etc. Also, because we shouldn't be grouping deities of disparate mythologies together this way. The article LGBT themes in mythology seems to handle this much better than these categories, if anyone wanted to add any of these categories' members there, while also attempting to avoid WP:OR. - jc37 23:24, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

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• Delete all per WP:NONDEF. Paul August ☎ 18:35, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: merge/delete. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkltalk 17:44, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:1506 establishments in the Habsburg Netherlands to :Category:1506 establishments in the Holy Roman Empire and :Category:16th-century establishments in the Habsburg Netherlands

:* Propose merging :Category:1510 establishments in the Habsburg Netherlands to :Category:1510 establishments in the Holy Roman Empire and :Category:16th-century establishments in the Habsburg Netherlands

:* Propose merging :Category:1523 establishments in the Habsburg Netherlands to :Category:1523 establishments in the Holy Roman Empire and :Category:16th-century establishments in the Habsburg Netherlands

:* Propose merging :Category:1530 establishments in the Habsburg Netherlands to :Category:1530 establishments in the Holy Roman Empire and :Category:16th-century establishments in the Habsburg Netherlands

:* Propose merging :Category:1531 establishments in the Habsburg Netherlands to :Category:1531 establishments in the Holy Roman Empire and :Category:16th-century establishments in the Habsburg Netherlands

:* Propose merging :Category:1553 establishments in the Habsburg Netherlands to :Category:1553 establishments in the Holy Roman Empire and :Category:16th-century establishments in the Habsburg Netherlands

:* Propose merging :Category:1567 establishments in the Habsburg Netherlands to :Category:1567 establishments in the Holy Roman Empire, :Category:1567 establishments in the Spanish Empire and :Category:16th-century establishments in the Habsburg Netherlands

:* Propose merging :Category:1607 establishments in the Habsburg Netherlands to :Category:1607 establishments in the Holy Roman Empire, :Category:1607 establishments in the Spanish Empire and :Category:17th-century establishments in the Habsburg Netherlands

:* Propose merging :Category:1620 establishments in the Habsburg Netherlands to :Category:1620 establishments in the Holy Roman Empire, :Category:1620 establishments in the Spanish Empire and :Category:17th-century establishments in the Habsburg Netherlands

:* Propose merging :Category:1625 establishments in the Habsburg Netherlands to :Category:1625 establishments in the Holy Roman Empire, :Category:1625 establishments in the Spanish Empire and :Category:17th-century establishments in the Habsburg Netherlands

:* Propose merging :Category:1657 establishments in the Habsburg Netherlands to :Category:1657 establishments in the Holy Roman Empire, :Category:1657 establishments in the Spanish Empire and :Category:17th-century establishments in the Habsburg Netherlands

:* Propose merging :Category:1663 establishments in the Habsburg Netherlands to :Category:1663 establishments in the Holy Roman Empire, :Category:1663 establishments in the Spanish Empire and :Category:17th-century establishments in the Habsburg Netherlands

:* Propose merging :Category:1667 establishments in the Habsburg Netherlands to :Category:1667 establishments in the Holy Roman Empire, :Category:1667 establishments in the Spanish Empire and :Category:17th-century establishments in the Habsburg Netherlands

:* Propose deleting {{lc|1500s establishments in the Habsburg Netherlands}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|1510s establishments in the Habsburg Netherlands}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|1520s establishments in the Habsburg Netherlands}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|1530s establishments in the Habsburg Netherlands}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|1540s establishments in the Habsburg Netherlands}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|1550s establishments in the Habsburg Netherlands}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|1560s establishments in the Habsburg Netherlands}}

:* Propose merging :Category:1600s establishments in the Habsburg Netherlands to :Category:17th-century establishments in the Habsburg Netherlands

:* Propose deleting {{lc|1620s establishments in the Habsburg Netherlands}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|1650s establishments in the Habsburg Netherlands}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|1660s establishments in the Habsburg Netherlands}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Establishments in the Habsburg Netherlands by year}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Establishments in the Habsburg Netherlands by decade}}

:Nominator's rationale: WP:SMALLCAT, WP:OCYEAR. Upmerge to Holy Roman Empire (and Spanish Empire for later years) level(s) and century-level establishments. All nominated categories have 1-2 articles per year, and the decade level will not be sufficiently populated to keep either. –Aidan721 (talk) 14:23, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

• Normally the (dis)establishments categories mirror the year/decade/century categories, it would be a novelty to disentangle them. Marcocapelle (talk) 17:01, 28 September 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose Smallcat is no reason to delete a category. There is always scope for expansion. Dimadick (talk) 01:28, 29 September 2023 (UTC)
• Query. I think the proposal to merge :Category:1600s establishments in the Habsburg Netherlands into :Category:17th-century establishments in the Habsburg Netherlands may be an error. 1600s is a decade from 1600 to 1609, not the 17th century from 1601 to 1700. PearlyGigs (talk) 05:32, 29 September 2023 (UTC)
• :{{ping|PearlyGigs}} the lone article in the :Category:1600s establishments in the Habsburg Netherlands is a 1605 establishment, hence why the target is :Category:17th-century establishments in the Habsburg Netherlands. –Aidan721 (talk) 16:48, 29 September 2023 (UTC)
• Support as nominated per WP:OCYEAR. That guideline says we should avoid annual categories with very few members, regardless of the status of SMALLCAT as a guideline. This is quite clearly the case here. HouseBlaster^talk 16:54, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: merge/delete. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkltalk 17:51, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

:*Propose merging:

::* :Category:380s establishments in the Byzantine Empire to :Category:4th-century establishments in the Byzantine Empire

::* :Category:390s establishments in the Byzantine Empire to :Category:4th-century establishments in the Byzantine Empire

::* :Category:500s establishments in the Byzantine Empire to :Category:6th-century establishments in the Byzantine Empire and :Category:500s establishments

::* :Category:520s establishments in the Byzantine Empire to :Category:6th-century establishments in the Byzantine Empire

::* :Category:530s establishments in the Byzantine Empire to :Category:6th-century establishments in the Byzantine Empire

::* :Category:540s establishments in the Byzantine Empire to :Category:6th-century establishments in the Byzantine Empire

::* :Category:660s establishments in the Byzantine Empire to :Category:7th-century establishments in the Byzantine Empire and move Balatlar Church to :Category:660s establishments

::* :Category:800s establishments in the Byzantine Empire to :Category:9th-century establishments in the Byzantine Empire

::* :Category:960s establishments in the Byzantine Empire to :Category:10th-century establishments in the Byzantine Empire

::* :Category:1020s establishments in the Byzantine Empire to :Category:11th-century establishments in the Byzantine Empire

::* :Category:1040s establishments in the Byzantine Empire to :Category:11th-century establishments in the Byzantine Empire and :Category:1040s establishments in Europe

::* :Category:1080s establishments in the Byzantine Empire to :Category:11th-century establishments in the Byzantine Empire

::* :Category:1200s establishments in the Byzantine Empire to :Category:13th-century establishments in the Byzantine Empire

::* :Category:1280s establishments in the Byzantine Empire to :Category:13th-century establishments in the Byzantine Empire

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Establishments in the Byzantine Empire by decade}}

:Nominator's rationale: WP:SMALLCAT, WP:OCYEAR. Not enough establishments on a decade-level. Upmerge to century-level. Most cases do not require merge to YYYYs establishments due to being in YYYY establishments already. –Aidan721 (talk) 15:24, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

• Normally the (dis)establishments categories mirror the year/decade/century categories, it would be a novelty to disentangle them. Marcocapelle (talk) 15:47, 28 September 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose Smallcat is no reason to delete a category. There is always scope for expoansion. Dimadick (talk) 01:26, 29 September 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose. I agree with Dimadick. While it is true that some categories have limited scope, that assumption cannot be made about establishments because research continues and expansion remains a possibility. PearlyGigs (talk) 05:02, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

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::Support: Not currently an aid to navigation. I'm sure these could be viable in some future time and when that happens, of course they could be recreated. Furius (talk) 23:24, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

• Support all of nomination per my comments at a similar nomination: WP:OCYEAR says to {{tq|"avoid creating a category tree of individual by year categories with very few members"}}, entirely independent of WP:SMALLCAT. They can always be recreated later if they can be sufficiently populated. HouseBlaster^talk 17:41, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: no consensus. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkltalk 17:54, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose renaming :Category:14th-century BC mayors to :Category:?

:Nominator's rationale: Category using anachronistic terminology. "Mayors" are not a thing that existed in the 14th century BC, so these people shouldn't be categorized as something they weren't -- but I don't know what the best alternative would be. Bearcat (talk) 05:31, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

• Rename to :Category:14th-century BC heads of city-states or :Category:Heads of city-states in the Amarna letters or something like that. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:24, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

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• "Mayor" seems to be the standard term in Egyptological literature (e.g. [https://books.google.de/books?id=U7BHOyr4_8sC&pg=PA135&dq=Abdi-Heba+mayor&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiImpb03vuBAxVhygIHHfm1Av4Q6AF6BAgGEAI#v=onepage&q=Abdi-Heba%20mayor&f=false ], [https://books.google.de/books?id=gkY_DwAAQBAJ&pg=PA18&dq=Abdi-Heba+mayor&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiImpb03vuBAxVhygIHHfm1Av4Q6AF6BAgFEAI#v=onepage&q=Abdi-Heba%20mayor&f=false ], [https://books.google.de/books?id=QbTNDwAAQBAJ&pg=PT41&dq=Abdi-Heba+mayor&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiImpb03vuBAxVhygIHHfm1Av4Q6AF6BAgNEAI#v=onepage&q=Abdi-Heba%20mayor&f=false ], [https://books.google.de/books?id=hFRwonqqNCUC&pg=PA218&dq=Abdi-Heba+mayor&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiImpb03vuBAxVhygIHHfm1Av4Q6AF6BAgLEAI#v=onepage&q=Abdi-Heba%20mayor&f=false ], [https://books.google.de/books?id=pcgxBwAAQBAJ&pg=PA141&dq=Abdi-Heba+mayor&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiImpb03vuBAxVhygIHHfm1Av4Q6AF6BAgKEAI#v=onepage&q=Abdi-Heba%20mayor&f=false ]). Do you have any source for this being any more anachronistic than "king", "priest", or any other English term applied to people who existed before English existed? Furius (talk) 23:45, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: no consensus. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkltalk 18:03, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:British people in colonial Australia to :Category:British emigrants to colonial Australia

:Nominator's rationale: Overlapping category Mason (talk) 02:06, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

• Mild support for manual merge, while the category contains a few British colonial officials as well (i.e. not emigrants) they are too different from emigrants to be put together in one category. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:02, 16 September 2023 (UTC)
• :What about renaming it to :Category:British expatriates in colonial Australia? Mason (talk) 13:33, 16 September 2023 (UTC)
• :* That is a possibility. We also have :Category:Australian colonial governors and administrators and :Category:British colonial judges in Australia, so if the nominated category is kept/renamed those should become subcategories. Marcocapelle (talk) 14:27, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: no consensus. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkltalk 18:00, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:Social classes in the Ottoman Empire to :Category:Social class in the Ottoman Empire

:Nominator's rationale: WP:OVERLAPCAT Mason (talk) 03:22, 11 September 2023 (UTC)

::Support per nom, category is not large enough to warrant diffusion. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 05:04, 11 September 2023 (UTC)

• Support per nom. NLeeuw (talk) 15:32, 11 September 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose, this would remove the contents from the other parent :Category:Social classes. Five pages is not as many as :Category:Social classes in ancient Rome (17) but IMHO is still sufficient to be worth diffusing to the subcat. – Fayenatic London 13:31, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure) HouseBlaster^talk 17:23, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Palestinian scientist stubs}}

:Nominator's rationale: Underpopulated stub category without evidence of approval by WikiProject Stub Sorting. As always, stub categories are not free for just any user to create for just any topic on a whim -- there have to be at least 60 articles to file in a stub category before its creation is warranted, and because of that size bar they have to be authorized by the WikiProject before they can be created.
But this wasn't submitted for approval, there's only one article in the category, and there's absolutely no prospect of getting to 60 articles since even the {{cl|Palestinian scientists}} parent tree only encompasses 47 articles total across itself and all of its subcategories.
I'm agnostic on whether the templates need to exist or not, as they can always just sort pages into the parent categories -- but a dedicated category for them can't exist until there are at least 59 more articles in it than this. Bearcat (talk) 12:41, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

• Delete per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 19:23, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: merge to :Category:Shipwrecks in the Celebes Sea. (non-admin closure) HouseBlaster^talk 17:17, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:Shipwrecks in the Sulawesi Sea to :Category:Shipwrecks in the Celebes Sea

:Nominator's rationale: Sulawesi Sea is an alternate name of the Celebes Sea. Wikihistorian (talk) 11:54, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

• Merge per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 19:25, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: merge to :Category:People under the Zirid dynasty for now; no prejudice against recreation if and when it can be populated. (non-admin closure) HouseBlaster^talk 17:15, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:Scholars under the Zirid dynasty to :Category:People under the Zirid dynasty

:Nominator's rationale: merge for now, currently only one article, without prejudice to recreating the category if and when it can be populated better. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:03, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

::Support merge for now. I took the liberty of adding the only category member to :Category:11th-century scholars, so the fact that they were a scholar is kept Mason (talk) 17:41, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure) HouseBlaster^talk 17:14, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Hoey family}}

:Nominator's rationale: small cat; there are only two people who are married to each other Mason (talk) 03:53, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

• Delete per nom, obviously the two articles are already directly interlinked. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:27, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure) HouseBlaster^talk 17:14, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Stone family (North Carolina)}}

:Nominator's rationale: Small cat (n<3 ) without a corresponding eponymous article about the family. it's a pair of brothers Mason (talk) 03:28, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

• Delete per nom, obviously the two articles are already directly interlinked. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:33, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: rename to :Category:Works about Koryo-saram people. (non-admin closure) HouseBlaster^talk 17:13, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose renaming :Category:Works about Koryo-saram to :Category:Works about Koryo-saram people

:Nominator's rationale: I'm not 100% sure of this, a bit complicated. For context, "Koryo-saram" means literally "Korean person". I previously proposed (and it seems likely to pass) that {{cl|Koryo-saram}} be renamed "Koryo-saram people", to make clear that it's a people category and to distinguish it from {{cl|Koryo-saram society}}. And for other categories like {{cl|Literature about Zainichi Korean people}}, the term "people" is used.

:Tl;dr if we're already allowing "Koryo-saram people" and other categories use the "x about y people" pattern, should this also? toobigtokale (talk) 03:26, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

::Support. per nom/consistency Mason (talk) 03:48, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure) HouseBlaster^talk 17:12, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Chanov family}}

:Nominator's rationale: small cat; only 2 brothers in the category Mason (talk) 02:53, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

• Delete per nom, obviously the two articles are already directly interlinked. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:37, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure) HouseBlaster^talk 17:11, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Bouloussou family}}

:Nominator's rationale: Small cat (n=1) without a corresponding eponymous article about the family Mason (talk) 02:43, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

• Delete per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:38, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure) HouseBlaster^talk 17:11, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Hodges family}}

:Nominator's rationale: Small cat (n<3 ) without a corresponding eponymous article about the family. it's a father-son pair Mason (talk) 02:36, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

• Delete per nom, obviously the two articles are already directly interlinked. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:40, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: no consensus. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkltalk 17:57, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:Biologists from British India to :Category:Biologists

:Nominator's rationale: trivial intersection Mason (talk) 12:58, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

• If not kept, merge to :Category:Indian biologists. Marcocapelle (talk) 13:52, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: no consensus. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkltalk 17:57, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:Social workers in British India to :Category:Indian social workers

:Nominator's rationale: trivial intersection Mason (talk) 13:02, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

::I'd also be open to renaming it to FOO from British India. Mason (talk) 22:16, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: no consensus. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkltalk 17:57, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:Trade unionists in British India to :Category:Trade unionists

:Nominator's rationale: trivial intersection Mason (talk) 13:03, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

• If not kept, merge to :Category:Indian trade unionists. Marcocapelle (talk) 13:46, 16 September 2023 (UTC)
• :I'd also be open to renaming it to FOO from British India. Mason (talk) 22:15, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: no consensus. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkltalk 17:56, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:Linguists in British India to :Category:Linguists

:Nominator's rationale: trivial intersection Mason (talk) 13:03, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

• If not kept, merge to :Category:Linguists from India. Marcocapelle (talk) 13:43, 16 September 2023 (UTC)
• :I'd also be open to renaming it to FOO from British India. Mason (talk) 22:15, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

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::FYI. The same category creator @Johnpacklambert has made an alternative category... :Category:Linguists from British India Mason (talk) 22:17, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: no consensus. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkltalk 17:56, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:Circus performers in British India to :Category:Circus performers

:Nominator's rationale: Trivial intersection Mason (talk) 13:09, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

• If not kept, merge to :Category:Indian circus performers. Marcocapelle (talk) 13:37, 16 September 2023 (UTC)
• :I'd also be open to renaming it to FOO from British India. Mason (talk) 22:15, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: no consensus – WP:NPASR. (non-admin closure) HouseBlaster^talk 00:45, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:Scholars in British India to :Category:Scholars

:Nominator's rationale: trivial intersection Mason (talk) 13:16, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

• If not kept, merge to :Category:Indian scholars. Marcocapelle (talk) 13:27, 16 September 2023 (UTC)
• :I'd also be open to renaming it to FOO from British India. Mason (talk) 22:17, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

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::FYI. The same category creator @Johnpacklambert has made an alternative category... :Category:Scholars from British India Mason (talk) 22:16, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: no consensus – WP:NPASR. (non-admin closure) HouseBlaster^talk 00:45, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:Adoptees in the Russian Empire to :Category:Russian adoptees

:Nominator's rationale: overlapping cat Mason (talk) 02:00, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

• See comment above. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:15, 16 September 2023 (UTC)
• :*I'd also be open to renaming it to FOO from the Russian Empire
• :Mason (talk) 22:19, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: no consensus – WP:NPASR. (non-admin closure) HouseBlaster^talk 00:44, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:Russian Empire escapees to :Category:Russian escapees

:Nominator's rationale: overlapping category Mason (talk) 02:01, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

• Comment, this is not as strightforward. Editors object (with good reason) to not have "Russian" and "Soviet" merged in a single category whereas the Russian Empire was roughly equivalent to the Soviet Union in its span of different nationalities. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:15, 16 September 2023 (UTC)
• :That's fair. (and thank you for being very thoughtful about categories!) Mason (talk) 12:32, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: no consensus – WP:NPASR. (non-admin closure) HouseBlaster^talk 00:44, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:Anti-capitalists from the Russian Empire to :Category:Russian anti-capitalists

:Nominator's rationale: Overlapping cat Mason (talk) 01:54, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

• See comment about :Category:Russian Empire escapees further above. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:27, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

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Relisting comment: {{tq|Further above}} refers to the comment by Marcocappele below.
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• Comment The order I relisted these Russian Empire-related discussions reversed the order, so "further above" is now again one nomination above this one. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 02:08, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: no consensus – WP:NPASR. (non-admin closure) HouseBlaster^talk 00:44, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:Russian municipal police chiefs to :Category:Russian police chiefs

:Nominator's rationale: Seems to be rundudant with police chiefs Mason (talk) 01:30, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

• Comment, these are police chiefs of Moscow and St Petersburg in particular. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:40, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: no consensus – WP:NPASR. (non-admin closure) HouseBlaster^talk 00:43, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose renaming :Category:Hunters from the Russian Empire to :Category:Russian hunters

:Nominator's rationale: This category is extremely small, and doesn't have the larger parent nationality category. Mason (talk) 01:23, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

• See comment about :Category:Russian Empire escapees further above. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:41, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: merge to :Category:19th-century German actresses and delete :Category:Actors from the German Empire as empty. (non-admin closure) HouseBlaster^talk 17:07, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:Actresses from the German Empire to :Category:19th-century German actresses

:Nominator's rationale: small overlapping category where regime isn't a defining intersection with nationality + gender + vocation. Mason (talk) 00:47, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

• Merge per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:46, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
• Merge per nom and delete :Category:Actors from the German Empire as it will be empty. –Aidan721 (talk) 16:12, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: merge to :Category:People under the Zirid dynasty. (non-admin closure) HouseBlaster^talk 17:01, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:People from Zirid Ifriqiya to :Category:People under the Zirid dynasty

:Nominator's rationale: These seem to be overlapping to me Mason (talk) 00:33, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

• Merge per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:04, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: rename to :Category:Poets under the Salghurids. (non-admin closure) HouseBlaster^talk 17:01, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose renaming :Category:Poets of the Salghurids to :Category:Poets under the Salghurids

:Nominator's rationale: parent is People under the Salghurids Mason (talk) 00:30, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

• Speedy rename per WP:C2C. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:05, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
• :thanks -- I wasn't sure if OCCUPATION under was well established enough of a precedent. Mason (talk) 17:45, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

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