Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2024 June 10#Category:Berber former Christians

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: speedy deleted as G7. (non-admin closure) Queen of Hearts (🏳️‍⚧️ • 🏳️‍🌈) 23:18, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Gaborone task force}}

:Nominator's rationale: only contains an empty subcat; Wikipedia:WikiProject Botswana/Gaborone task force was G7ed Queen of Hearts (🏳️‍⚧️ • 🏳️‍🌈) 22:39, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

::ok i’ll g7 this too 48JCL TALK 22:40, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: merge. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 13:00, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:Ex-Muslims to :Category:Apostasy in Islam

:Nominator's rationale: merge, redundant category layer with only an eponymous category and a subcategory. Marcocapelle (talk) 19:00, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

:Keep The main article is Ex-Muslims. ”apostate is a pejorative label and is meant to reflect the sense of betrayal felt by those who remain members of the religion”. [https://www.researchgate.net/publication/305775661_Nonreligion_and_Atheism] --Thi (talk) 20:00, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

:* Ok does the category exist because of discontent with the name of the parent category? Apostasy in Islam is commonly defined as the abandonment of Islam by a Muslim, in thought, word, or through deed. There is nothing pejorative about it. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:49, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

:*:"Apostasy" is per se pejorative. Not sure how you didn't know that. Jclemens (talk) 02:53, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

:*:* In any case it is a redundant fork. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:05, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

:*Merge per Marco. ALso it is work noting that the pages in the category were all moved from the merge target. They effectively created the category to replace :Category:Apostasy in Islam and :Category:Former Muslims. I think we should set the category to redirect to :Category:Former Muslims. Mason (talk) 21:31, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

:*:Merge per Marco. @Marcocapelle, what do you think about Mason's proposal? Omnis Scientia (talk) 10:51, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

:*:* Sure, by all means redirect. Marcocapelle (talk) 15:48, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: soft merge. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkltalk 15:06, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Berber former Christians}}

:Nominator's rationale: delete for now, single-article category, which is not helpful for nomination. No need to merge, the article is already in :Category:Algerian former Christians. Marcocapelle (talk) 17:36, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

::Should this be merged to :Category:Berber Christians? –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 11:16, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

::* I wouldn't object to that. Marcocapelle (talk) 17:53, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: merge (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 13:00, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Lists of film festivals in Oceania}}

:Nominator's rationale: Category which exists solely to hold one list at the same level of differentiation. This would be fine if one or more Oceanian countries had their own separate standalone lists independently of the continent-wide list, but none do, so the list does not need an "eponymous" category just to recursively contain itself if there are no supplementary sublists for specific Oceanian countries to file along with it.
The list, further, was left double-filed in all of the parent categories alongside this, so no upmerging is needed. Bearcat (talk) 15:24, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

• Merge to :Category:Film festivals in Oceania per WP:C2F and per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 16:56, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: delete (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 12:58, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Lists of awards received by Ugandan writer}}

:Nominator's rationale: Newly created 1-article category. Gjs238 (talk) 12:11, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

• Delete per nom. No need to merge, the article is already in :Category:Lists of awards received by writer. Marcocapelle (talk) 16:59, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
• Delete per nom. Cos ^{(X + Z)} 18:31, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

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:The result of the discussion was: delete (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 12:58, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Lists of awards received by Ugandan film director}}

:Nominator's rationale: Newly created 1-article category. Gjs238 (talk) 12:08, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

• Delete per nom. No need to merge, the article is already in :Category:Lists of awards received by film director. Marcocapelle (talk) 17:00, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

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:The result of the discussion was: keep. The only proponent is a blocked sock; anyone else is welcome to renominate this category if they wish to pursue this further. HouseBlaster (talk · he/they) 15:09, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

:* Propose renaming :Category:Society of Kurdistan to :Category:Kurdish society

:Nominator's rationale: Similar categories in :Category:Society by ethnicity are named in this manner. Kurdistan is a very roughly defined region. Please note that the category was previously moved speedy from 'Kurdish society'. Aldij (talk) 08:44, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

::Oppose. Kurdistan is a region, not an ethnicity. The nom has been blocked, and they also changed the parent category from Category:Society by region to Society by ethnicity Mason (talk) 21:32, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: rename. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 12:58, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

:* Propose renaming :Category:Battles in Andalusia to :Category:Military history of Andalusia

:* Propose renaming :Category:Battles in Aragon to :Category:Military history of Aragon

:* Propose renaming :Category:Battles in Castile and León‎ to :Category:Military history of Castile and León‎

:* Propose renaming :Category:Battles in Castilla–La Mancha to :Category:Military history of Castilla–La Mancha

:* Propose renaming :Category:Battles in Extremadura to :Category:Military history of Extremadura

:* Propose renaming :Category:Battles in Galicia (Spain)‎ to :Category:Military history of Galicia (Spain)‎

:* Propose renaming :Category:Battles in Navarre to :Category:Military history of Navarre

:* Propose renaming :Category:Battles in the Balearic Islands‎ to :Category:Military history of the Balearic Islands

:* Propose renaming :Category:Battles in the Basque Country (autonomous community) to :Category:Military history of the Basque Country (autonomous community)

:* Propose renaming :Category:Battles in the Valencian Community‎ to :Category:Military history of the Valencian Community

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:* Propose upmerging :Category:Battles in Catalonia‎ to :Category:Military history of Catalonia

:* Propose upmerging :Category:Battles in the Community of Madrid to :Category:Military history of Madrid

:Nominator's rationale: WP:MILMOS#BATTLESIN. See Germany, Italy etc. NLeeuw (talk) 05:01, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

• Rename per nom, per precedent. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:07, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

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:The result of the discussion was: delete (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 12:59, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Aunty Disco Project}}

:Nominator's rationale: With the albums appropriately categorized by :Category:Albums by artist and the only other article a discography page, this is an unnecessary eponymous category. Starcheerspeaksnewslostwars^{Talk to me} 03:22, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

• Delete, per nom, per WP:OCEPON. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:09, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

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:The result of the discussion was: keep. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkltalk 15:10, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Unreal Engine 5 games}}

:Nominator's rationale: Duplicative with :Category:Unreal Engine games. No merge required, as all members of the nominated category are in the original already. Each version of Unreal Engine is not independently notable or distinct. -- ferret (talk) 22:45, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

::I disagree because Category:Unreal Engine games is very large and spans more than two decades of video games. There isn't much use in knowing that a game was made with "just" Unreal Engine from the point of view of someone reading about the game compared to knowing that it was made in Unreal 5 which tells you a lot more about what you can expect from the game both in terms of graphics and gameplay (that is, within a given specific genre). Similarly, there isn't much use in knowing a game was made in "just" Unreal from the point of view of someone reading about Unreal itslef as nobody develops games in "Unreal Engine." Consider also that the Video Game infobox Engine field usually has the Unreal Engine version listed, not just "Unreal Engine", because just listing "Unreal Engine" is not so useful. Each version of Unreal is a separate piece of software. Also, not all members of the nominated category are in the original already (at least at the time that I added some of them).

::As a separate but related point, I feel that all versions of Unreal Engine should be separate articles on Wikipedia. J2UDY7r00CRjH (talk) 22:53, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

• Shouldn't it be merged to :Category:Unreal Engine games rather than deleted? Marcocapelle (talk) 17:42, 16 May 2024 (UTC)
• :@Marcocapelle The articles are already in both. -- ferret (talk) 20:15, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
• :* Ok, thank you. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:55, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

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{{resize|91%|Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.}}
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkltalk 15:09, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

• I propose instead of deleting the category, it should be a sub-category under :Category:Unreal Engine games. In fact, I think the all the pages under this category also should be sorted by Unreal Engine type, i.e. UE1, UE2, UE3 and UE4. This rationale is made since the list of games for each Unreal Engine version is deleted, and there should be categories that list by version to clean up :Category:Unreal Engine games. Otherwise the alternative is to simply delete :Category:Unreal Engine games. ~ Limyx826 (talk) 19:30, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

:* Criteria for categories are stricter than for lists so if lists per version were deleted, categories per version should certainly be deleted as well. Then :Category:Unreal Engine games suffices. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:01, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

:*:@Marcocapelle, can you please point me at the criteria that this category violates? Would :Category:Source 2 games violate it as well?{{pb}}In Russian Wikipedia, we created a separate category for each version of Unreal Engine and I'm pretty satisfied with the result. A particle for world to form (talk) 23:44, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

:*:* WP:DEFINING requires that reliable sources consistently describe the games as having this property. WP:TRIVIALCAT may also be applicable. Can you please point me to the discussion about the — Preceding unsigned comment added by Marcocapelle (talk • contribs)

:*:** Thanks. I can see how WP:DEFINING is applicable here (even though there're enough sources to model this in Wikidata, like ModDB, those are mostly unreliable in enwiki). But then I don't see how the same logic is not applicable to the general :Category:Unreal Engine games (since the List of Unreal Engine games was deleted). To me it looks like either we should delete most of the engines' categories, or we can keep separate categories for Unreal Engine versions. Whenever a media covers game engines, it usually specifies UE version ([https://www.gamesradar.com/stormgate-announced-frost-giant-studios-unreal-engine-5-rts/ Stormgate], [https://www.gamesradar.com/mass-effect-legendary-edition-uses-unreal-engine-3-for-good-reason-according-to-the-developers/ Mass Effect Legendary Edition], [https://www.gamesradar.com/unreal-engine-3-heads-to-sin-city/ Sin City], etc).{{pb}}And I don't see how WP:TRIVIALCAT is applicable. The difference between Unreal Engine 1 and Unreal Engine 5 is very significiant, both from user's and developer's perspective, so in my opinion it actually helps the navigation.{{pb}}There were no inwiki discussion about splitting the category as far as I can remember. We discussed some aspects of it on Russian WPVG Discord server, but that's probably it. A particle for world to form (talk) 06:25, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

• Keep. The separate versions pretty much characterize the games, comparing to just "Unreal Engine", given its existence for many years. The UE versions are quite different from each other, both in terms of development and end result. They all have their own separate version tree as well, so I would even say to some extent these are the different engines under the same brand name. The versions are also extensively covered in the sources, just as the versions for individual games are often supported by sources and are listed in the infobox. There may not be enough material for individual articles (needs to be verified), but there is enough material to split up this clogged category. The difference between the versions is enormous and obvious to anyone who follows the industry, and generally useful to any reader. Practically, you'll have little use for the information that Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets (video game) and Tekken 8 were made on the same engine. But looking at them as separate versions is already a defining characteristic - WP:DEFINING. The distinct version categories also correspond better to WP:CATDD, which explicitly states to use the most specific categories.Therefore, I support splitting c:Unreal Engine games into 5 subcategories with gradual moving of articles to corresponding versions and turning the main category into a meta category. On Russian Wikipedia it really looks much cleaner and more informative than the endless listing we have now. Solidest (talk) 05:02, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

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{{resize|91%|Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.}}
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, HouseBlaster (talk · he/they) 02:31, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

• Keep Either we get rid of the "Unreal Engine games" category entirely, or this should stay. Unreal Engine 5 is absolutely distinct from something like the original Unreal Engine, to the point that it's essentially two separate pieces of software sharing a similar name. The argument that they are the same thing doesn't hold water from either a technical or a visual standpoint. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 08:57, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: merge to :Category:Drug traffickers only. There was no substantiative rationale for keeping it. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkltalk 15:08, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

:* Propose splitting :Category:Female drug traffickers to :Category:Female criminals and :Category:Drug traffickers

:Nominator's rationale: Non-defining intersection between gender, criminal, and specific kind of crime committed. I don't think that this holds up under WP:EGRS. Mason (talk) 03:06, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

::Oppose, how is this any less defining than other subcategories of :Category:Female criminals? AHI-3000 (talk) 05:38, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

::* Feel free to nominate sibling categories. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:47, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

::*:That's not what I was suggesting. AHI-3000 (talk) 17:50, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

:::@Dimadick: What do you think of this? AHI-3000 (talk) 17:50, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

• Split There is no main article for female drug traffickers, which is a good indication it's not defining. If someone can prove otherwise and/or make a main article, I would think otherwise. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 05:09, 23 May 2024 (UTC)
• Single merge to :Category:Drug traffickers only. There is no need for a dual merge. The large amount of articles is already in the tree of :Category:Female gangsters and if they aren't, such as Schapelle Corby, then :Category:Female criminals is an equally questionable target. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:45, 23 May 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose I see no reason to not divide criminals by their gender. Gender is always defining. Dimadick (talk) 17:55, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

:* On the contrary, it is hardly ever a defining intersection. That is why we have WP:OCEGRS. Marcocapelle (talk) 18:16, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

:*:How is this any less defining than other subcategories for female criminals? AHI-3000 (talk) 00:26, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

:*:* That is an WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS argument. Feel free to nominate the sibling categories too. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:03, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

:*:*:That's not at all what I'm implying. AHI-3000 (talk) 16:16, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

:*:*::Question: Can any of the opposers (@AHI-3000@Dimadick) make the case that this specific intersection with gender and type of crime is actually defining per EGRS? No one is saying that crime and gender isn't defining, but I struggle to see how this specific crime type is defining. Mason (talk) 00:36, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

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{{resize|91%|Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.}}
Relisting comment: For those in favor of getting rid of the category, what should it be replaced with? Single merge? Double merge? Split? For those in favor of keeping the category, evidence that this is defining?
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, HouseBlaster (talk · he/they) 02:30, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

• {{ping|Smasongarrison|Zxcvbnm}} please reply to my single merge vote above. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:12, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
• :I didn't realize most were already under gangsters, so I can support the single merge. As long as this category is removed. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 06:20, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
• ::Single merge sounds good to me. Mason (talk) 20:27, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

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:The result of the discussion was: delete. HouseBlaster (talk · he/they) 15:10, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Accidents during the New Year celebrations}}

:Nominator's rationale: Non defining itnersection between day of the year and nature of the event Mason (talk) 02:00, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

::Delete Only one article, and no parallel subcategories. We also :Category:Attacks during the New Year celebrations, which is being speedy renamed to remove a misused definite article. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 04:44, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

• Delete, Fireworks accidents during New Year celebrations could be a good topic article but victims are not individually notable. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:16, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.