Wikipedia:Files for deletion/2011 January 23#File:LokerenLocatie.png

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=January 23=

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{{Delrevxfd|date=2011 February 1}}

===Ben Roberts-Smith VC - arbitrary h5 for editing convenience===

  • Further update: it has now been confirmed that R.-S. will be sent on a tour of several months of public appearances "in public spotlight" [http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-national/vc-recipient-in-public-spotlight-for-now-20110124-1a2fb.html]. If those are going to be anything like those M. Donaldson did, taking photographs of him will be most definitely possible. (For instance, there are multiple images on the web where Donaldson is marching at the head of a public parade, along a street lined by thousands of people, any of whom obviously could have held a camera the moment he walked past. The myth that such photographs would be "illegal" is fast falling apart.) Fut.Perf. 17:47, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

:: Did you read the news article provided by Matinbgn about the controversy surrounding the photographing of Willie Apiata and the restricitions in place in both NZ and Australia about photographing members of the special forces ([http://www.theage.com.au/world/kiwi-controversy-after-sas-war-hero-willie-apiata-photographed-20100122-moqy.html here])? Are you going to discuss the specific points raised above about the claim of fair use or just continue to insist on the same point that this image is somehow replacable with a PD version? As AusTerrapin has written a good summary of this claim I would be interested in your response to it. Specifically it seems clear that there is no question of copyright infringement given that the image was released to the media by the Australian Department of Defence for use in reporting the event (without any further permission required) and given that there is currently no PD version available claims that this breeches WP:NFCC - 1 No Free Equivalent seem equally incorrect IMO. Anotherclown (talk) 22:28, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

::: In the Willie Apiata case, problems were raised because they had pictured him while in action. Nobody has suggested you should go follow R.-S. into Afghanistan and photograph him there, so please don't argue strawmen here. But you have avoided my point: if some bystander had taken a snapshot of Donaldson from the pavement during that public parade and put it on Flickr, or if one of the kids who were present at [http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/victoria-cross-winner-meets-students/story-e6freo8c-1111119099856 this] scene had brought their own camera along, are you seriously claiming they'd get in trouble with the law? For showing the same scene that professional journalists were also showing anyway? That is so absurd it's really not worth discussing. Fut.Perf. 22:50, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

::::Dear Furure Perfect. At the risk of sounding like a cracked record:

::::*Did you read the news article provided by Matinbgn?

::::*Are you going to discuss the specific points raised above?

::::Awaiting your relevant response. Pdfpdf (talk) 05:17, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

::::: Yes, I did read it, and I just answered about the point. (You do sound like a cracked record.) What was being objected to was the fact that they showed him while fighting, not the fact that they showed him as such, as he was shown while "paraded in front of the public". The only other "specific point" I think I haven't responded to is the argument that the present picture would be valid fair use. Yes, of course. I never questioned that. But Wikipedia's NFC rules are more stringent than US fair use law. It has to be legal fair use and irreplaceable. Now, are you going to answer my question? Have you written to the D.o.D. and asked them if the kids [http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/victoria-cross-winner-meets-students/story-e6freo8c-1111119099856 here] would have gone to jail if they had taken a pic of themselves with Donaldson and put it on Facebook? I'm not going to accept your word for it, please ask and report what the D.o.D. says. Fut.Perf. 06:35, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

{{od}}

:"Yes, I did read it" - good.

:"(You do sound like a cracked record.)" - Well, if it gets you back on topic, I can live with that.

:And now we get to the point that everyone's been making, and you appear to have been avoiding:

:"the argument that the present picture would be valid fair use. Yes, of course. I never questioned that." - True. But you never answered it or addressed it, either. Thank you for the clarification! Perhaps we can now move ahead? Pdfpdf (talk) 10:23, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

::"It has to be legal fair use and irreplaceable." - Hmmm. Sounding like a cracked record again. It is. Pdfpdf (talk) 10:23, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

:::"Have you written to the D.o.D. and asked them ... " - Of course I haven't. That would be a completely pointless exercise. In case you hadn't noticed, they are a government department. There is NO way that any government department in ANY country is going to make an official statement that "it is OK to break the law".

:::Get real. Pdfpdf (talk) 10:23, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

:::: I am disputing that any law would be broken. If a professional photographer (for Getty images) can produce such images, what law would be broken if a private citizen did the same? You haven't actually cited any law. Cite it. So far we have heard only that the military follows a policy of withholding some information, but nothing about an actual law that would restrict private citizens from transmitting such information once for whatever reason it has been released. Not even in the article about the Apiata case was there any hint that the journalists in question did anything illegal. So, prove that there is a law, and prove that it would cover the case of a soldier whose protected identity status has explicitly been waived by the government. Also, prove that the images we see on the web (not those released by the military, but those created and released by third parties) could be published only because the military specifically "vetted" them, as somebody further up claimed. This is all entirely unsubstantiated, and I'm not buying any of it. Fut.Perf. 11:17, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

::::: BTW, just in case you didn't notice, for Willie Apiata (the guy that article was about), we actually do have a free photograph (:File:Bill Apiata.jpg). Taken during a visit to a school, i.e. exactly the kind of publicity appearances that Donaldson also did, and that we can now safely expect from R.-S. too. Prima facie evidence that such images are both practically possible and legal. Fut.Perf. 13:33, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

{{od}}Without more information (that I don't currently have), I can't make a useful comment. Yet. Pdfpdf (talk) 14:07, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

:The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the media's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

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