to Education. There is consensus that Education covers the concept of "Western education" well-enough to warrant a redirect. I'll add {{tl|R with possibilities}} to mark there may be an article to develop here. -- Tavix (talk) 16:58, 24 August 2018 (UTC)
- {{no redirect|1 = Western education }} → :secular education (talk · links · [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Western_education&action=history history] · [https://tools.wmflabs.org/pageviews?start=2018-07-15&end=2018-08-13&project=en.wikipedia.org&pages=Western_education stats]) [ Closure: {{#ifeq:{{FULLPAGENAME}}|Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion|(@subpage)|[{{fullurl:Western education|action=edit&summary={{Urlencode:{{FULLPAGENAME}}#Western education closed as keep}}}} keep]/[{{fullurl:Western education|action=edit&summary={{Urlencode:{{FULLPAGENAME}}#Western education closed as retarget}}}} retarget]/[{{fullurl:Western education|action=delete&wpReason={{Urlencode:{{FULLPAGENAME}}#Western education closed as delete}}&wpMovetalk=1}} delete]}} ]
clearly not a good target because not all western education is secular Prisencolin (talk) 04:41, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
:It defently needs a different target. For example, North America has a large number of Catholic schools which are clearly not secular. This should be deleted unless a better target is found.--76.65.40.44 (talk) 06:38, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
- Indeed, this really does need a better target. It has several incoming links from article space, the one at Zou people says "...many neo-literates among the Zous were convinced about the power of western education and medicine, perceiving these things as synonymous with Christianity itself." which makes the secular education target clearly incorrect. The association with western medicine is present in at least one of the other links too, which gives a hint about what is meant. We have articles Traditional education and Classical education but I don't think they are quite right. I'll leave a note at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Education about this discussion. Thryduulf (talk) 11:24, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
- Retarget to Education, a comprehensive article, the great majority of which covers modern, "Western", education. Failing that, retarget to school, the defining institution of Western education. Johnbod (talk) 12:42, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
- Two articles- I haven't got my reference books with me here in Congénies but if we are going to make a change, lets get it right. Western Education stems from the Greek tradition of Socrates, and the Roman interpretation of the need for the elite to recieve an education in the Greek manner and the plebs to recieve a training. The Western as distinct from the orthodox tradition was different, and we never mentioned the Eastern cultures of China, and South Asia on our BEd philosopy of Education course. There really is enough material to work up an FA on this.
:Secular education is equally fascinating to the right sort of person. In Europe the Kings had subcontracted education of boys to the church, and with naissance of secularism there was an awareness that something was wrong. Your couldn't get tenure at UK university with out entering Holy Orders. The whole curriculum of the English public school rested on divinity, and latin and greek (a left over) so, we now enter the debate for the control of the curriculum. Material for an article there! Now we have the hidden subsidy of the church by the state through village schools. The 1944 Act was the historic compromise where religion was imposed on every school in country in return for the church handing over its assets (village church primary schools in dire physical conditions where no other school existed) and a generous financial package. Secular schools took a giant stem back! I believe that the church still holds on to all major public schools. That said it was possible to spend 4 years at a C of E College and never step foot in their chapel. We still have funding differences in austerity Nottingham between the non-church schools and the church schools. I was reminded last night about the perils of insisting your 8yr goes to a 'secular' school in protestent NI[https://www.secularism.org.uk/news/2017/01/northern-ireland-secularists-support-moves-to-integrate-education NSS]. Finland is secular [https://www.iclrs.org/content/blurb/files/Finland.pdf MATTI KOTIRANTA Religion and the Secular State in Finland] but [https://helda.helsinki.fi/bitstream/handle/10138/175458/Merenmies_MastersThesis_Final.pdf?sequence=2I Merenmies_MastersThesis_Final] show illegal permeation of religion and breaches of human rights law. I have not discussed the separation of church and state in post Sarkosy France- but I can do. Without my books, I think, given attention, we have enough notability and material to do a second article.ClemRutter (talk) 16:27, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
- Comment judging from the incoming links and comments, there are multiple distinct concepts which editors of other articles are trying to reach when they invoke the phrase "Western education":
- #Liberal education or liberal arts education
- #The topic referred to by the links from Zou people and Lu Xun: English- or French-medium education in schools run by European expatriates or schools in the metropole, in contrast to the local traditional style of education based on systems which pre-dated contact with Europe (e.g. education for the Confucian court examination system in Vietnam). Colonial education, more or less (oh well, that's red). This would not necessarily be liberal arts education, but quite possibly limited to vocational training in bookkeeping, business correspondence, and such to meet the needs of the colonial government and business
- #The topic referred to by the links from Education in Ethiopia and Primer with Various Instructions, which appears to me to be something like the creation of an educational system by the government, with standardisation of language, teaching practices, etc. State school and compulsory education and some other articles capture bits and pieces of that concept.
:I think we'd be better off writing some sort of index or disambiguation page here, not the least to prevent it from getting occupied by an article exclusively referring to one of the above concepts to the exclusion of the others. 59.149.124.29 (talk) 17:51, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
- Retarget to Education It's not secular as Eastern education can also be secular. We don't even have an Eastern education redirect. There are topics that suggest Western educational model might be a suitable article, as mentioned in Indigenous education and other articles. But Education would be a good general redirect. AngusWOOF (bark • sniff) 21:09, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
- Oppose retarget to Education as promoting systematic bias. Saying that "Western education" is the same as "Education" is promoting it as the normal and marginalising all other forms as lesser. I'm leaning towards 59.149's set index idea as the best suggested yet, but I'm not sure what form it would take. Thryduulf (talk) 14:26, 15 August 2018 (UTC)
:: If it goes to Education, then Eastern education redirect should be created as well just to neutralize the bias. AngusWOOF (bark • sniff) 16:28, 15 August 2018 (UTC)
::: That wouldn't actually solve the problem I identified, it would just make a second parallel problem. Thryduulf (talk) 18:05, 15 August 2018 (UTC)
:::: On a similar case, if it can be indexed like Eastern medicine, that would work. Right now Western medicine just goes to Medicine. AngusWOOF (bark • sniff) 18:41, 15 August 2018 (UTC)
- Retarget per Johnbod and AngusWOOF. I don't agree with the systemic bias argument: we redirect narrower or more specific terms to broader or more general articles all the time, and to do so is not to suggest an equivalence between the redirect and the target, much less to suggest that the redirect predominates over other topics mentioned in the target. If Education were a redirect to Western education that would of course be implicitly saying that western education is the only form of education, or the only worthwhile form, and I've !voted to delete plenty of redirects on those grounds (usually general terms pointing to U.S.-specific articles). But this is a different situation; indeed, in a sense it's the complete opposite. I also don't think that a disambiguation page would be useful here – there are simply not enough articles we could list while adhering to WP:DABENTRY – and set indexes are, as I understand the guideline, only for topics that share a name. – Arms & Hearts (talk) 18:51, 15 August 2018 (UTC)
:The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.
