. While I can't ignore the participants preferring deletion, I'm convinced the keep !votes make stronger arguments. There are mentions, and while it may be non-standard, the redirects take readers to the relevant content, wherever it may be. Not wild about the argument that reader's will remember the serial murderer's name and not the victim's name, as that somewhat misses the point about the value of redirects. ~ Amory (u • t • c) 11:20, 29 May 2019 (UTC)
- {{no redirect|1 = James Silcox }} → :Elizabeth Wettlaufer#Murders and assaults (talk · links · [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=James_Silcox&action=history history] · [https://tools.wmflabs.org/pageviews?start=2019-03-19&end=2019-04-17&project=en.wikipedia.org&pages=James_Silcox stats]) [ Closure: {{#ifeq:{{FULLPAGENAME}}|Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion|(@subpage)|[{{fullurl:James Silcox|action=edit&summary={{Urlencode:{{FULLPAGENAME}}#James Silcox closed as keep}}}} keep]/[{{fullurl:James Silcox|action=edit&summary={{Urlencode:{{FULLPAGENAME}}#James Silcox closed as retarget}}}} retarget]/[{{fullurl:James Silcox|action=delete&wpReason={{Urlencode:{{FULLPAGENAME}}#James Silcox closed as delete}}&wpMovetalk=1}} delete]}} ]
- {{no redirect|1 = James Lancing Silcox }} → :Elizabeth Wettlaufer#Murders and assaults (talk · links · [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=James_Lancing_Silcox&action=history history] · [https://tools.wmflabs.org/pageviews?start=2019-04-29&end=2019-05-28&project=en.wikipedia.org&pages=James_Lancing_Silcox stats]) [ Closure: {{#ifeq:{{FULLPAGENAME}}|Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion|(@subpage)|[{{fullurl:James Lancing Silcox|action=edit&summary={{Urlencode:{{FULLPAGENAME}}#James Lancing Silcox closed as keep}}}} keep]/[{{fullurl:James Lancing Silcox|action=edit&summary={{Urlencode:{{FULLPAGENAME}}#James Lancing Silcox closed as retarget}}}} retarget]/[{{fullurl:James Lancing Silcox|action=delete&wpReason={{Urlencode:{{FULLPAGENAME}}#James Lancing Silcox closed as delete}}&wpMovetalk=1}} delete]}} ]
- {{no redirect|1 = Maurice Granat }} → :Elizabeth Wettlaufer#Murders and assaults (talk · links · [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Maurice_Granat&action=history history] · [https://tools.wmflabs.org/pageviews?start=2019-04-29&end=2019-05-28&project=en.wikipedia.org&pages=Maurice_Granat stats]) [ Closure: {{#ifeq:{{FULLPAGENAME}}|Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion|(@subpage)|[{{fullurl:Maurice Granat|action=edit&summary={{Urlencode:{{FULLPAGENAME}}#Maurice Granat closed as keep}}}} keep]/[{{fullurl:Maurice Granat|action=edit&summary={{Urlencode:{{FULLPAGENAME}}#Maurice Granat closed as retarget}}}} retarget]/[{{fullurl:Maurice Granat|action=delete&wpReason={{Urlencode:{{FULLPAGENAME}}#Maurice Granat closed as delete}}&wpMovetalk=1}} delete]}} ]
- {{no redirect|1 = Gladys Millard }} → :Elizabeth Wettlaufer#Murders and assaults (talk · links · [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Gladys_Millard&action=history history] · [https://tools.wmflabs.org/pageviews?start=2019-04-29&end=2019-05-28&project=en.wikipedia.org&pages=Gladys_Millard stats]) [ Closure: {{#ifeq:{{FULLPAGENAME}}|Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion|(@subpage)|[{{fullurl:Gladys Millard|action=edit&summary={{Urlencode:{{FULLPAGENAME}}#Gladys Millard closed as keep}}}} keep]/[{{fullurl:Gladys Millard|action=edit&summary={{Urlencode:{{FULLPAGENAME}}#Gladys Millard closed as retarget}}}} retarget]/[{{fullurl:Gladys Millard|action=delete&wpReason={{Urlencode:{{FULLPAGENAME}}#Gladys Millard closed as delete}}&wpMovetalk=1}} delete]}} ]
- {{no redirect|1 = Helen Matheson }} → :Elizabeth Wettlaufer#Murders and assaults (talk · links · [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Helen_Matheson&action=history history] · [https://tools.wmflabs.org/pageviews?start=2019-04-29&end=2019-05-28&project=en.wikipedia.org&pages=Helen_Matheson stats]) [ Closure: {{#ifeq:{{FULLPAGENAME}}|Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion|(@subpage)|[{{fullurl:Helen Matheson|action=edit&summary={{Urlencode:{{FULLPAGENAME}}#Helen Matheson closed as keep}}}} keep]/[{{fullurl:Helen Matheson|action=edit&summary={{Urlencode:{{FULLPAGENAME}}#Helen Matheson closed as retarget}}}} retarget]/[{{fullurl:Helen Matheson|action=delete&wpReason={{Urlencode:{{FULLPAGENAME}}#Helen Matheson closed as delete}}&wpMovetalk=1}} delete]}} ]
- {{no redirect|1 = Mary Zurawinski }} → :Elizabeth Wettlaufer#Murders and assaults (talk · links · [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Mary_Zurawinski&action=history history] · [https://tools.wmflabs.org/pageviews?start=2019-04-29&end=2019-05-28&project=en.wikipedia.org&pages=Mary_Zurawinski stats]) [ Closure: {{#ifeq:{{FULLPAGENAME}}|Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion|(@subpage)|[{{fullurl:Mary Zurawinski|action=edit&summary={{Urlencode:{{FULLPAGENAME}}#Mary Zurawinski closed as keep}}}} keep]/[{{fullurl:Mary Zurawinski|action=edit&summary={{Urlencode:{{FULLPAGENAME}}#Mary Zurawinski closed as retarget}}}} retarget]/[{{fullurl:Mary Zurawinski|action=delete&wpReason={{Urlencode:{{FULLPAGENAME}}#Mary Zurawinski closed as delete}}&wpMovetalk=1}} delete]}} ]
- {{no redirect|1 = Arpad Horvath }} → :Elizabeth Wettlaufer#Murders and assaults (talk · links · [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Arpad_Horvath&action=history history] · [https://tools.wmflabs.org/pageviews?start=2019-04-29&end=2019-05-28&project=en.wikipedia.org&pages=Arpad_Horvath stats]) [ Closure: {{#ifeq:{{FULLPAGENAME}}|Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion|(@subpage)|[{{fullurl:Arpad Horvath|action=edit&summary={{Urlencode:{{FULLPAGENAME}}#Arpad Horvath closed as keep}}}} keep]/[{{fullurl:Arpad Horvath|action=edit&summary={{Urlencode:{{FULLPAGENAME}}#Arpad Horvath closed as retarget}}}} retarget]/[{{fullurl:Arpad Horvath|action=delete&wpReason={{Urlencode:{{FULLPAGENAME}}#Arpad Horvath closed as delete}}&wpMovetalk=1}} delete]}} ]
- {{no redirect|1 = Maureen Pickering }} → :Elizabeth Wettlaufer#Murders and assaults (talk · links · [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Maureen_Pickering&action=history history] · [https://tools.wmflabs.org/pageviews?start=2019-04-29&end=2019-05-28&project=en.wikipedia.org&pages=Maureen_Pickering stats]) [ Closure: {{#ifeq:{{FULLPAGENAME}}|Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion|(@subpage)|[{{fullurl:Maureen Pickering|action=edit&summary={{Urlencode:{{FULLPAGENAME}}#Maureen Pickering closed as keep}}}} keep]/[{{fullurl:Maureen Pickering|action=edit&summary={{Urlencode:{{FULLPAGENAME}}#Maureen Pickering closed as retarget}}}} retarget]/[{{fullurl:Maureen Pickering|action=delete&wpReason={{Urlencode:{{FULLPAGENAME}}#Maureen Pickering closed as delete}}&wpMovetalk=1}} delete]}} ]
- {{no redirect|1 = Helen Whitelaw Marshall Young }} → :Elizabeth Wettlaufer#Murders and assaults (talk · links · [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Helen_Whitelaw_Marshall_Young&action=history history] · [https://tools.wmflabs.org/pageviews?start=2019-04-29&end=2019-05-28&project=en.wikipedia.org&pages=Helen_Whitelaw_Marshall_Young stats]) [ Closure: {{#ifeq:{{FULLPAGENAME}}|Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion|(@subpage)|[{{fullurl:Helen Whitelaw Marshall Young|action=edit&summary={{Urlencode:{{FULLPAGENAME}}#Helen Whitelaw Marshall Young closed as keep}}}} keep]/[{{fullurl:Helen Whitelaw Marshall Young|action=edit&summary={{Urlencode:{{FULLPAGENAME}}#Helen Whitelaw Marshall Young closed as retarget}}}} retarget]/[{{fullurl:Helen Whitelaw Marshall Young|action=delete&wpReason={{Urlencode:{{FULLPAGENAME}}#Helen Whitelaw Marshall Young closed as delete}}&wpMovetalk=1}} delete]}} ]
Convicted serial killers do not need, as a matter of course, to automatically have a permanent redirect from the name of every individual victim they killed. The victims are not famous in their own right, and are extremely unlikely to ever actually be searched for by users expecting to reach an article that way. And we doubly don't need such redirects to be categorized for life trivia, like their birth year and birthplace or their prior occupation, that isn't even reflected or sourced in the article at all. ({{cl|Tinsmiths}}, for example, is supposed to contain people who were notable as tinsmiths, not non-notable tinsmiths like Maurice Granat who exist only as redirects to notable murderers.) While {{cl|Canadian murder victims}} does contain some other redirects, those are from "Name of Victim" to "Murder of Victim", not from "Name of Victim" to "Name of Murderer" -- the Wettlaufer batch are literally the only ones that are doing the latter thing at all. So these simply aren't serving any genuinely useful purpose. Bearcat (talk) 18:52, 18 April 2019 (UTC)
- Keep - It is Wikipedia practice to have redirects of murder victims linking to the perpetrator article (or vice-versa). Whether or not the perpetrator has one or several victims is irrelevant, in fact you could make the case that serial killers are generally more notable than regular killers and thus their victims are of just as much significance as an individual who was the sole victim of a particular murderer. About the only time where we might not have redirects is when victims are not named in the article, perhaps in a case of a serial killer with hundreds of victims and where perhaps they'd only actually been directly convicted of the murder of say a dozen of them. However, you'd still see all the victims who were part of the conviction/capture named in such an article, and thus there would still be many names of victims redirecting to the article. As for usefulness, well plenty of people might remember the name of a victim but not that of their murderer, and thus the redirect is useful. As for categorisation, Wikipedia consensus is that we do indeed categorise such redirects unless there was some particular strong reason against doing so. One useful function of Wikipedia categories is that redirects show in italics, and thus readers can still easily distinguish between entries that go directly to articles and ones that redirect elsewhere.Shakehandsman (talk) 22:14, 18 April 2019 (UTC)
::Firstly, no, it is profoundly unlikely that anybody outside of a victim's own family would remember the name of a serial killer's victims more readily than the actual name of the actual killer — if the killer is famous enough to actually have their own standalone Wikipedia article at all, then their name will be well-known to the public. In any case where the murder victim is genuinely more famous and notable than the killer, such as Matthew Shepard or Brandon Teena, the article is by definition located at either "Name of Victim" or "Murder of [Name of Victim]", and never at "Name of Killer" — and neither Shepard nor Teena were victims of serial killers, their fame as murder victims accrued because they were standalone murders. But for serial killers, go ahead and name me just one of Jeffrey Dahmer's or John Wayne Gacy's or Bruce McArthur's or Ted Bundy's victims without looking them up first.
::Secondly, most serial killers do not have redirects from the name of each individual victim. So no, it's clearly not standard "Wikipedia practice" to do so, if we verifiably usually don't.
::Thirdly, it is also not standard practice that redirects always have to be categorized like regular articles, either. Redirects may be categorized if there's a navigationally useful reason to do so, such as the redirect represents a title that people might actually be looking for in a category where the target page would be out of place, but there is no rule that redirects are always or even usually required to be categorized at all. And even if they are being categorized, redirects should certainly still not be categorized on points of information, such as their pre-death occupation or their place of birth, that are not actually reflected or sourced in, or even really relevant to, the target article. Bearcat (talk) 23:45, 19 April 2019 (UTC)
:::Sorry but that just doesn’t stand up to scrutiny. I’ve contributed to all kinds of articles concerning such crimes and so often it’s such a complex picture. In some instances almost impossible to decide whether the murderer or the victim(s) is the most notable of the two and might as well be a toss of a coin, hence the huge importance of redirects for the other party. In some cases we don’t even have either party’s name as part of the article title, but again it’s standard practice (and certainly good practice) to have redirects for both murderer and victim. You’re quite correct that redirects are missing from some other serial killer articles and in fact all kinds of other Wikipedia articles but that’s primarily down to those articles being incomplete. The increased use of these redirects is a relative recent practice on Wikipedia, hence most older or less viewed articles may not yet be up to standard. We shouldn’t lower the quality of one article down to that of another, and the solution here is to add the missing redirects. As for the degree to which we categorised these victims, it obviously goes without saying that they belongs in the Canadian murder victims category, and I’d argue that their date of birth was indeed quite defining and relevant, particularly as they were killed mainly because of their age. It goes without saying that the date of death is defining and the dementia diagnosis was also a key factor in many cases so again that should be categorised, as should other major illnesses they led to the murders. As for their place of birth, that may be less clear, but it certainly merits inclusion if it’s in the vicinity of the locations of the crimes. Ultimately, if the content pertaining to the victims is within the article (or belongs in it but is not present as of yet) then it should be categorised. The consensus thus far was to only remove redirects when the individual is not mentioned by name in the article (and is not likely to be named should the article be expanded). It's really important to emphasise that the article in question isn't of a particularly high standard and requires considerable expansion and improvement, thus the real solution here is to fix the article, not delete redirects. In fact some recent edits have even involved people trying to censor the a names of the victims and details of the murders entirely! I made a few improvements previously and I'll try to improve it this week if I find the time.Shakehandsman (talk) 04:19, 22 April 2019 (UTC)
{{resize|91%|Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.}}
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, B dash (talk) 01:26, 26 April 2019 (UTC)
{{resize|91%|Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.}}
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, B dash (talk) 04:20, 3 May 2019 (UTC)
- Delete as it is unlikely a reader will not be able to recall the name of a serial killer but will be able to recall that of a specific victim. Rubbish computer (Talk: Contribs) 08:31, 3 May 2019 (UTC)
- Keep since the article has information about each victim. Yes, it's not ideal that these people are only known for how they died, but [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:PrefixIndex?prefix=Murder+of&namespace=0 it's a sad fact for plenty of other people as well]. I agree the trivial categorization can be removed though. -- Tavix (talk) 17:56, 10 May 2019 (UTC)
{{resize|91%|Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.}}Relisting comment: One more time
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, B dash (talk) 00:03, 11 May 2019 (UTC)
- Delete since there is no reason search can't provide the same purpose as these redirects. Furthermore, these redirect pages are being misused with inappropriate categories. There is no global consensus that victim lists are to be included on mass shooting pages so I can't imagine this is something that would survive much scrutiny as a regular practice. If any of the victims had specific notability outside of being murdered it would be a different story, but as far as I can tell they do not. - PaulT[//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Psantora&action=edit +]/C 03:41, 11 May 2019 (UTC)
- Delete. If mentioned in the article, search should get it. If not mentioned in the article, then it means the names are not wp-important. - Nabla (talk) 19:41, 21 May 2019 (UTC)
- Delete. Not enough information in target article to justify the redirects. They are also disrespectful to the victims. Esiymbro (talk) 11:36, 28 May 2019 (UTC)
:The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.
