. A narrow majority of editors support disambiguation. While normally a vote split like this would be closed as no consensus, at a certain point several editors arguing that the 2016 model is not a clear primary topic is itself enough evidence that it is not the primary topic. signed, Rosguill talk 01:59, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
- {{no redirect|1 = IPhone SE }} → :IPhone SE (2016) (talk · links · [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=IPhone_SE&action=history history] · [https://tools.wmflabs.org/pageviews?start=2020-03-17&end=2020-04-15&project=en.wikipedia.org&pages=IPhone_SE stats]) [ Closure: {{#ifeq:{{FULLPAGENAME}}|Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion|(@subpage)|[{{fullurl:IPhone SE|action=edit&summary={{Urlencode:{{FULLPAGENAME}}#IPhone SE closed as keep}}}} keep]/[{{fullurl:IPhone SE|action=edit&summary={{Urlencode:{{FULLPAGENAME}}#IPhone SE closed as retarget}}}} retarget]/[{{fullurl:IPhone SE|action=delete&wpReason={{Urlencode:{{FULLPAGENAME}}#IPhone SE closed as delete}}&wpMovetalk=1}} delete]}} ]
After the announcement of the new iPhone SE (2020), the old iPhone SE page was moved to iPhone SE (2016). I turned the redirect into a disambiguation page, but was reverted by Prahlad balaji with the rationale that there are still many inbound links to the old iPhone SE. Here we have two options: 1) the old iPhone SE is still the primary topic, and should be moved back to its original page since by definition the "(2016)" qualifier is unnecessary; or 2) there is no primary topic, and iPhone SE should be a disambiguation page. The current situation, a primary redirect to a parenthetically disambiguated title, is impermissible. I, of course, favor disambiguation as neither of the two models is more important than the other. King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 03:11, 16 April 2020 (UTC)
- {{ping|King of Hearts}} The iPhone SE (2020) was just announced. Since the page iPhone SE (2016) has been called just "iPhone SE" for many years, there are still inbound links to it. There is a separate disambig page that is linked at the very top of iPhone SE (2016) and iPhone SE (2020). Also, there is already an iPhone SE disambig page. Check it out here. There is no need to make this a disambiguation page when there already is one that has a clearer title, so that readers know that it's actually a disambig page. -◊PRAHLADBalaji 04:07, 16 April 2020 (UTC)
- :The existence of inbound links is not a reason to hold up implementation of our naming/disambiguation policies. They will be fixed eventually, and in the meantime readers will still be able to get to their desired destination with one additional click. Again, the naming convention for disambiguation pages states that iPhone SE should be the disambiguation page and iPhone SE (disambiguation) should be a redirect to it. (Unless you are arguing that the old iPhone SE is the primary topic, in which case the move to iPhone SE (2016) should not have been done. Pick one or the other, the current situation is not supported in policy.) -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 04:08, 16 April 2020 (UTC)
- Move the 2016 iPhone SE back to the base title. Until reviews and sales figures for the 2020 device have been released, the 2016 iPhone SE remains the more prominent topic by long-term significance and should be treated as the primary topic. feminist Wear a mask to protect everyone 04:53, 16 April 2020 (UTC)
- Move - I support the above proposal to move things back given that we clearly have a primary topic here. CoffeeWithMarkets (talk) 05:41, 16 April 2020 (UTC)
- Move per CoffeeWithMarkets, though if there's ever a third model, that would probably be the time to disambiguate the base title. --BDD (talk) 14:51, 16 April 2020 (UTC)
- Move back to the old iPhone SE page as the primary topic. --17jiangz1 (talk) 16:39, 16 April 2020 (UTC)
- Move back and keep together. Apple chose to continue the name, so the 2020 model should be characterized as a new version of the iPhone SE, not as an altogether different thing. Note that this is also not a proper disambiguation page, as the topics are not unrelated. It would be a set index article. BD2412 T 20:07, 16 April 2020 (UTC)
- Comment FYI Talk:IPhone SE (2nd generation)#Requested move 16 April 2020. —DIYeditor (talk) 22:21, 17 April 2020 (UTC)
- Move, it's too early to say if eventually the articles will be swapped (with the older unit being "iPhone SE (1st generation)" and the newer unit being at "iPhone SE"), but for now the older unit is clearly the primary topic. —Locke Cole • t • c 18:40, 18 April 2020 (UTC)
- Comment What renders the 2016 model the primary topic, and is it likely to remain the primary topic for a significant period of time? If not, is it worth having to change the page names again if, in the future, the 2016 iPhone SE fades out of memory and the 2020 model is better known? Guy Harris (talk) 05:00, 21 April 2020 (UTC)
- :The existing RS coverage does, based on proportion. We can’t choose a primary topic based on projected future coverage! — MarkH21talk 05:23, 21 April 2020 (UTC)
- ::OK, WP:PRIMARYTOPIC lists "two major aspects that editors commonly consider" when deciding what's the primary topic.
:::The first is "A topic is primary for a term with respect to usage if it is highly likely—much more likely than any other single topic, and more likely than all the other topics combined—to be the topic sought when a reader searches for that term." It's not clear, given that the most recent iPhone SE model is the 2nd generation one, that this would be the first-generation iPhone SE.
:::The second is "A topic is primary for a term with respect to long-term significance if it has substantially greater enduring notability and educational value than any other topic associated with that term." The only thing that would inherently give the first generation more notability and educational value is that it introduced the notion of a "Special Edition" iPhone; I'm not convinced that's sufficient.
:::If we look at [https://tools.wmflabs.org/pageviews/?project=en.wikipedia.org&platform=all-access&agent=user&redirects=1&start=2020-04-10&end=2020-04-19&pages=IPhone_SE_(1st_generation)|IPhone_SE_(2nd_generation)|IPhone_SE|IPhone_SE_(2020)|IPhone_SE_(2016) "article traffic statistics", including redirects], the iPhone SE page dominated until 2020-04-14. At that point, there was a surge of traffic for pages (including redirects) for both models. Traffic bounced around a bit for all of them; by 2020-04-19, the pages for the first generation (iPhone SE, iPhone SE (1st generation), and iPhone SE (2016) got a total of 10,986 pageviews, and the pages for the second generation (iPhone SE (2nd generation) and iPhone SE (2020) got a total of 10,504 pageviews. (I'm assuming that if you "include redirects", pageviews of redirect pages are counted as pageviews of the page to which it redirect, as the graph in question shows only the main 2nd generation page, the main 1st generation page, and the iPhone SE page, which is a redirect-for-discussion and no longer redirects.) So, based on pageviews, they were about equally interesting on Wikipedia on 2020-04-19. I don't expect interest in the 2nd generation to die off and leave behind only continued interest in the 1st generation; my guess is that interest in both will drop down to a lower level, probably with the 2nd generation having more interest, but not necessarily a lot more interest.
:::[https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?geo=US&q=iPhone%20se%202016,iPhone%20se%202020,iPhone%20se%201st%20generation,iPhone%20se%202nd%20generation,iPhone%20se Google Trends] shows only "iPhone se 2020" as having much interest - neither the "1st generation" nor the "2nd generation" versions, nor "iPhone se 2016" have much interest. Plain "iPhone se" beats them all - and it's probably people looking for the 2nd generation phone, as it spiked recently, along with "iPhone se 2020".
:::So, at this point, I think the most reasonable approach is to have separate pages for the two generations, neither one named "iPhone SE", with "iPhone SE" being the disambiguation page - the only non-redirect page in article space that links to iPhone SE now is Macintosh SE, and that's just in a hatnote "Not to be confused with iPhone SE", so that would end up pointing to the disambiguation page. Guy Harris (talk) 07:48, 21 April 2020 (UTC)
::::Or, if the general concept of a cheaper "Special Edition" iPhone is worth an article, make iPhone SE that article, with short sections about both generations, with a Template:Main link to the articles about the generations in each section. Guy Harris (talk) 01:10, 22 April 2020 (UTC)
::::It's also worth noting that iPhone SE is no longer linked to Macintosh SE. -◊PRAHLADBalaji 00:52, 22 April 2020 (UTC)
:::iPhone SE should be merged with iPhone SE (disambiguation). -◊PRAHLADBalaji 00:52, 22 April 2020 (UTC)
- Conflict Again there would be a conflict in closing this with a name of iPhone SE (2016) if Talk:IPhone SE (2nd generation)#Requested move 16 April 2020 is closed with a name of iPhone SE (2nd generation). These two discussions overlap. —DIYeditor (talk) 18:07, 23 April 2020 (UTC)
- :{{ping|DIYeditor}} This redirect currently goes to iPhone SE (disambiguation). There is no plan to move the iPhone SE (1st generation) article to iPhone SE (2016). The double redirect has also been fixed, and there are no encyclopedic articles that link to iPhone SE (the links have been cleaned up). Please tell us, in simple words, what you mean. -◊PRAHLADBalaji 19:23, 23 April 2020 (UTC)
- ::This discussion can't decide to redirect to iPhone SE (2016) if that is not the correct article title. Perhaps it is a minor issue and one could assume that this discussion will affect whatever the ultimate title is but that is not clear to me. —DIYeditor (talk) 21:27, 23 April 2020 (UTC)
- :::{{ping|DIYeditor}} I am sorry to say that you are quite mistaken; the redirect in question does not redirect to iPhone SE (2016). It redirects to iPhone SE (disambiguation). If you want to check, go here. -◊PRAHLADBalaji 21:46, 23 April 2020 (UTC)
- ::::This is not the first time in this iPhone SE 2016/2020 business I have wondered what the fuck you are a talking about. I guess it is mutual? This discussion starts with "{{no redirect|1 = IPhone SE }} → :IPhone SE (2016)". —DIYeditor (talk) 22:11, 23 April 2020 (UTC)
- :::::{{ping|DIYeditor}} Don't be disrespectful. The only reason it says "{{no redirect|1 = IPhone SE }} → :IPhone SE (2016)" is because that was the original target. I changed the redirect target yesterday.
- :::::It says "{{no redirect|1 = IPhone SE }} → :IPhone SE (disambiguation)" now. -◊PRAHLADBalaji 22:52, 23 April 2020 (UTC)
- ::::::If that is your final goal, it is explicitly not allowed by our disambiguation naming policies. Disambiguation pages only take "(disambiguation)" if the base title has a primary topic, which the redirect implies it doesn't. -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 23:07, 23 April 2020 (UTC)
- :::::::{{ping|King of Hearts}} OK then, let's merge iPhone SE and iPhone SE (disambiguation) together. -◊PRAHLADBalaji 23:22, 23 April 2020 (UTC)
- ::::::::Yes, that's what I'm saying all along. But the disambiguation page must reside at iPhone SE, not iPhone SE (disambiguation), unless iPhone SE contains a primary article (not a primary redirect) already. -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 23:25, 23 April 2020 (UTC)
- ::::::{{u|Prahlad balaji}} I don't understand how or why you would change the premise of this discussion (which was written by {{u|King of Hearts}}) after people have already commented on it as it was originally written. What am I missing here? —DIYeditor (talk) 00:19, 24 April 2020 (UTC)
- :::::::{{ping|DIYeditor}} You're missing the fact that I have completely switched sides, from a pro-redirect person to a pro-disambig page person, because the links have been cleaned up! -◊PRAHLADBalaji 16:47, 24 April 2020 (UTC)
- :::::::{{ping|Prahlad balaji}} Which part of {{tq|ongoing RfD, do not modify until RfD is closed}} from {{u|King of Hearts}} ({{diff2|951847179|diff}}) did you misunderstand when making {{diff2|952686794|this edit}}? — MarkH21talk 06:55, 24 April 2020 (UTC)
- :::::::{{ping|MarkH21}} And where does it say {{tq|ongoing RfD, do not modify until RfD is closed}}, may I ask? -◊PRAHLADBalaji 16:50, 24 April 2020 (UTC)
- :::::::::{{ping|Prahlad balaji}} Click on the diff I linked. It’s an edit summary. Alternatively, look at the edit history. — MarkH21talk 16:59, 24 April 2020 (UTC)
- Make iPhone SE
an overview article a disambiguation There should be a definition of the term and an illustration what sets apart an "iPhone SE" from other iPhones. There should also be a summarization section for each generation. -- Tavix (talk) 23:00, 24 April 2020 (UTC)
- :{{ping|Tavix}} Maybe? The only thing is that the two iPhones are completely different. The only things that bind them together are the name and marketing strategy. -◊PRAHLADBalaji 15:21, 25 April 2020 (UTC)
- ::Yes, the name and marketing strategy is exactly what "binds them together", and both of these things can be explained in an overview article. -- Tavix (talk) 15:35, 25 April 2020 (UTC)
- :::At the moment I'm not convinced that the vague idea of an "iPhone SE" meets Wikipedia's notability criteria for a general-concept article; how many secondary sources treat these two models as one class distinct from the other iPhones? But a disambiguation page doesn't need to meet any notability requirements. -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 01:21, 27 April 2020 (UTC)
- ::::{{ping|King of Hearts}} Here are the similarities between the two. They are both $399 iPhones that ship with the near-final versions of their generation of iOS, compared to their higher-end counterparts, which shipped with the initial release. For example, the first-generation iPhone SE shipped with iOS 9.3, while its higher-end counterparts, the iPhone 6S/6S Plus, shipped with iOS 9.0.1. The second-generation iPhone SE shipped with iOS 13.4, while the higher-end iPhone 11, 11 Pro, and 11 Pro Max shipped with iOS 13.0. Ah, but there's more. Both are the smallest phones of their time. For example, 4.0 inch screens were small for 2016, and now 4.7 inch screens are small for 2020. And that brings me to another point. Both of these phones take an aging design and put modern parts into it. For example, the 2016 SE took the aging design of the 5S and put 6S internals into it, while the second-generation iPhone SE took the design of the iPhone 8 and put iPhone 11/11 Pro components in. Both are released in the year after their higher-end counterparts are released. For example, the original SE was released in 2016, the year after the release of the 6S/6S Plus, while the second-generation iPhone SE was released in 2020, the year after the release of the 11/11 Pro/11 Pro Max. -◊PRAHLADBalaji 13:53, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
- ::::Any source that calls the 2020 iPhone SE a "second generation" would inherently make that distinction. Otherwise it'd be referred to as a 13th (or 14th?) generation iPhone. I note that Apple [https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2020/04/iphone-se-a-powerful-new-smartphone-in-a-popular-design/ did so in their press release]. -- Tavix (talk) 22:08, 27 April 2020 (UTC)
- :::::That's more akin to a trivial mention; I just don't think we could write a general iPhone SE article that isn't just stating facts about one phone and comparing them to facts about the other phone, as opposed to talking about the broad ecosystem and strategy of the SE line. -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 01:16, 28 April 2020 (UTC)
- ::::::Perhaps it would help if I show you examples? Sub-lines of the iPad, for example, have their own overview articles, like the iPad Pro and iPad Mini. I don't see this situation being any different. That being said, I don't have the time or energy to develop such an article, and it doesn't look like anyone else has stepped forward to volunteer... -- Tavix (talk) 04:13, 28 April 2020 (UTC)
- :::::::{{ping|Tavix}} I can do it for you, if this discussion is closed. An overview article is a great idea. -◊PRAHLADBalaji 13:19, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
- ::::::::Great! Would you be willing to start it before the discussion is completed, at Draft:iPhone SE perhaps? If participants know what it will look like, it may be easier to find consensus for and implement once the discussion is over. -- Tavix (talk) 13:51, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
- :::::::: {{ping|Tavix}} Sure! I'd be willing to start the draft page. Would you be willing to help me with it a bit? -◊PRAHLADBalaji 13:58, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
- ::::::::: {{ping|Tavix}} Wait, wouldn't that be a duplicate of a legitimate article? -◊PRAHLADBalaji 15:15, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
- :::::::::: {{ping|Tavix}} Sorry, nevermind what I said there. I'm getting a bit annoying, so reply when you can. Cheerio! -◊PRAHLADBalaji 15:23, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
- I'm updating my !vote to disambiguation. Partially to help with consensus, partially because my suggestion isn't gaining favor. -- Tavix (talk) 19:46, 9 May 2020 (UTC)
- Make iPhone SE a disambiguation page. I came here to this discussion because I searched for "iPhone SE" and wanted info about the new model. --Petar Petrov (talk) 18:17, 25 April 2020 (UTC)
- :{{ping|Петър Петров}} That's what we all want to do. But the one thing is, there is already a disambig page located here. We need to make iPhone SE a disambiguation page, then redirect the existing disambig page to iPhone SE per Wikipedia's naming guidelines. -◊PRAHLADBalaji 19:30, 25 April 2020 (UTC)
- ::{{ping|Петър Петров}} Oh yes, and the new model's article is at iPhone SE (2nd generation). -◊PRAHLADBalaji 19:34, 25 April 2020 (UTC)
{{resize|91%|Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.}}
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Steel1943 (talk) 08:07, 28 April 2020 (UTC)
- Make iPhone SE a disambiguation page. As per my long post above under Comment:, there's little reason to think one of the current iPhone SE models is a primary topic, and as per other comments, it's not clear that there's enough to say about the general notion of an "iPhone SE" to make iPhone SE a real page, so, as per MOS:DABPAGENAME, "the title of a disambiguation page [would be]] the ambiguous term itself", namely "iPhone SE". We'd do that by 1) having iPhone SE redirect to iPhone SE (disambiguation), and then ask an administrator to do the "rename iPhone SE (disambiguation) to iPhone SE and then make iPhone SE (disambiguation) a redirect to iPhone SE" dance. Guy Harris (talk) 18:43, 28 April 2020 (UTC)
- Make iPhone SE a disambiguation page. There is no primary topic and there are only two models of phone with the name. We don't want an overview article that only worsens the Wikipedia disease of "we must have an article for everything". Oh, DrPizza! (talk) 11:01, 1 May 2020 (UTC)
- Make "iPhone SE" a disambig. These are two phones which aren't related. Having a simple page to redirect the user from "iPhone SE" to either the 2016 or the 2020 model should work. The iPhone SE page itself, on the other hand, could either be renamed to "iPhone SE (1st generation)" or "iPhone SE (2016)"; the best choice would be something consistent with the iPhone SE 2020's article. KevTYD (talk) 11:18, 9 May 2020 (UTC)
:The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.
