Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2020 July 10#Wikipedia:T
=[[Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2020 July 10|July 10]]=
==The Opera Corpus==
:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
:The result of the discussion was withdrawn
- {{no redirect|1 = The Opera Corpus }} → :List of operas by composer (talk · links · [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=The_Opera_Corpus&action=history history] · [https://tools.wmflabs.org/pageviews?start=2020-06-10&end=2020-07-09&project=en.wikipedia.org&pages=The_Opera_Corpus stats])
[ Closure: {{#ifeq:{{FULLPAGENAME}}|Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion|(@subpage)|[{{fullurl:The Opera Corpus|action=edit&summary={{Urlencode:{{FULLPAGENAME}}#The Opera Corpus closed as keep}}}} keep]/[{{fullurl:The Opera Corpus|action=edit&summary={{Urlencode:{{FULLPAGENAME}}#The Opera Corpus closed as retarget}}}} retarget]/[{{fullurl:The Opera Corpus|action=delete&wpReason={{Urlencode:{{FULLPAGENAME}}#The Opera Corpus closed as delete}}&wpMovetalk=1}} delete]}} ] - {{no redirect|1 = Opera corpus }} → :List of operas by composer (talk · links · [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Opera_corpus&action=history history] · [https://tools.wmflabs.org/pageviews?start=2020-06-10&end=2020-07-09&project=en.wikipedia.org&pages=Opera_corpus stats])
[ Closure: {{#ifeq:{{FULLPAGENAME}}|Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion|(@subpage)|[{{fullurl:Opera corpus|action=edit&summary={{Urlencode:{{FULLPAGENAME}}#Opera corpus closed as keep}}}} keep]/[{{fullurl:Opera corpus|action=edit&summary={{Urlencode:{{FULLPAGENAME}}#Opera corpus closed as retarget}}}} retarget]/[{{fullurl:Opera corpus|action=delete&wpReason={{Urlencode:{{FULLPAGENAME}}#Opera corpus closed as delete}}&wpMovetalk=1}} delete]}} ] - {{no redirect|1 = The opera corpus }} → :List of operas by composer (talk · links · [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=The_opera_corpus&action=history history] · [https://tools.wmflabs.org/pageviews?start=2020-06-10&end=2020-07-09&project=en.wikipedia.org&pages=The_opera_corpus stats])
[ Closure: {{#ifeq:{{FULLPAGENAME}}|Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion|(@subpage)|[{{fullurl:The opera corpus|action=edit&summary={{Urlencode:{{FULLPAGENAME}}#The opera corpus closed as keep}}}} keep]/[{{fullurl:The opera corpus|action=edit&summary={{Urlencode:{{FULLPAGENAME}}#The opera corpus closed as retarget}}}} retarget]/[{{fullurl:The opera corpus|action=delete&wpReason={{Urlencode:{{FULLPAGENAME}}#The opera corpus closed as delete}}&wpMovetalk=1}} delete]}} ]
It is unclear why these redirects target their current target. It is also unclear if this is an actual notable subject of some sort that we either already have an article for on Wikipedia (which I cannot find). Probably best to delete these as unclear as to what they define. Steel1943 (talk) 20:46, 10 July 2020 (UTC)
- Comment Wikipedia:WikiProject Opera says "In October 2006, the project began Composer of the Month, a monthly collaboration focusing on creating articles for operas by various composers in The Opera Corpus." (link in original) which suggests that the title should be a blue link to somewhere and (after a series of moves) the content that was at one time at these titles is now at the title; [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Lists_of_operas&diff=150929097&oldid=150928802&diffmode=source this edit] also suggests that was the original intent. I'm not sure what the best option is here, but RHaworth, Michael Snow and Kleinzach have had input into the title over the years and I'll ping the Opera project on their talk page as well. Thryduulf (talk) 21:45, 10 July 2020 (UTC)
- {{Ping|Thryduulf}} FWIW, would you be able to answer my edit request at Talk:The opera corpus, considering you have responded to this discussion, you are an admin, and if the edit doesn't get done before 00:00 UTC (about 2 hours from now), my request may become broken? Steel1943 (talk) 21:51, 10 July 2020 (UTC)
- {{replyto|Steel1943}} Done - although I thought you were an admin yourself. Thryduulf (talk) 21:55, 10 July 2020 (UTC)
- If I recall correctly, this was the original title of the page, and I thought it should be moved to List of operas by composer, in line with other Wikipedia list articles. It appears to have appropriately ended up there. My general thinking on redirects like this is that no harm is done by leaving them in place. It would only matter if the redirect was blocking legitimate content (say, someone wrote a book with this title and we need an article about it), or if it was somehow misleading or offensive for the redirect to end up there. --Michael Snow (talk) 22:28, 10 July 2020 (UTC)
- Thanks for the clarification on this. If this is the rationale behind these titles, I still stand behind my rationale to have these deleted. The titles do not identify anything specifically at the target by their name, and I cannot see this naming convention to be used around the rest of the Wikipedia in the same fashion as a search term pattern. (Examples: The video game corpus, The rock instrumental corpus, etc.) In other words, it seems like these titles were created in the time when we were still trying to figure out what Wikipedia was going to be (back when there was significantly less enforcement of standards like WP:NOTFANDOM ... most likely because such standards didn't exist yet), and titles like these were artifacts from that time years ago. Steel1943 (talk) 23:04, 10 July 2020 (UTC)
- Keep – This name has a long history and is widely linked on talk pages and archives. I think this name was used for List of operas by composer for much longer than its current name. It ought to be kept for historical reasons. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 00:51, 11 July 2020 (UTC)
- Keep. It's a helpful redirect, and also helps explain that it's not merely a list of operas by composer, but a more curated and precise compilation reflecting major and important works in all operatic genres by notable composers. It was known by this title for 10 years, and was only redirected in 2017. For the sake of WikiProject Opera and WikiProject Classical Music, at the very least, the redirects should be retained in my opinion, so that anyone searching for it (such as when wanting to add to it) or clicking on those links can get to the article in question. Softlavender (talk) 00:53, 11 July 2020 (UTC)
- ...So, as I said above, this is a title that's a non-subject invented by Wikipedia. This reminds me of the discussion about the redirects Other nonmetals and Other nonmetal ... topics/titles that were invented by Wikipedia's editors which themselves are not real subjects. The fact of the matter is that I have yet to see a point made so far in this discussion that disputes my aforementioned point. Steel1943 (talk) 02:13, 11 July 2020 (UTC)
- That, and these redirects differ from redirects tagged with {{Tl|R with old history}}s (99% of the time looking like a subpage) or {{Tl|R from camelcase}}s since these don't fall under either of those accepted "historical"-type redirects. These redirects' names don't contain any adjectives or adverbs, making them seem like they are themselves masquerading as some sort of encyclopedic subject. And then afterwards, the reader arrives at a page that does not correspond in title in the least to the redirects. I mean, the redirects' translation could mean "opera body", and we don't have an encyclopedic article for any such subject. I mean, why should these redirects get preferential treatment just because their target article was at this location for years? It's akin to leaving a nonsense redirect in existence ... let's hypothetically say The Canine Animal just because the article currently at Dog was sitting there for over 15 years and no one corrected it. So ... I don't see or understand why these redirects would get preferential treatment over such a situation as the aforementioned hypothetical. Steel1943 (talk) 02:23, 11 July 2020 (UTC)
- ...And if the links need correcting, that can quickly be fixed/resolved via WP:PIPEs and possibly WP:AWB. Steel1943 (talk) 02:26, 11 July 2020 (UTC)
- This isn't those redirects and isn't like them, and knowledgeable editors disagree with your points. This is a valuable redirect whose title made sense (it wasn't/isn't merely a list of existing articles, but also redlinks of articles that needed/need to be created), and which is still what editors search for when they want to add or create new articles on opera composers or operas, in any opera genre. At this point your repeated arguing seems to be descending into WP:IDONTLIKEIT and WP:BLUDGEONING, since there is clearly no harm in it and it is clearly helpful and it is clearly not being copied by unrelated disciplines. Softlavender (talk) 02:31, 11 July 2020 (UTC)
- I'm honestly trying to understand why these need to be exceptions, so WP:IDONTLIKEIT and WP:BLUDGEONING don't apply. In fact, I'd honestly take your WP:BLUDGEONING claim to you being defensive and not being able to dispute my points, so I hope that's not the case. Either way, I still don't see my point properly refuted in the statement above, but rather enforces my concerns. But, eh, let's see how this plays out, I suppose. Steel1943 (talk) 03:06, 11 July 2020 (UTC)
- ...That, and I'm trying to understand how "knowledgeable editors" are allowed preferential treatment for pages/redirects to exist that do not serve the proper utility as a encyclopedic search term, and basically fall into WP:NOTFANDOM territory with their names ... in other words, I could see such titles on a Wikia/FANDOM site, but not here. Steel1943 (talk) 03:13, 11 July 2020 (UTC)
- a) A corpus of operas is definitely a thing, just like it is in fields of literature and arts. b) We are arguing about a REDIRECT, not about an article title. The reason for the REDIRECT has been explained. All the usual arguments against deleting them apply. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 04:47, 11 July 2020 (UTC)
- You are correct, it is a "REDIRECT", and as a "REDIRECT", I do not agree with their utility for the reasons I already explained above. If these redirects were in a non-article namespace pointing to other non-article namespace pages, I would not see these problematic, considering that in those namespaces, titles for pages and redirects that do not make sense to readers who have never used Wikipedia before are prefectly acceptable. To me, these redirects are akin to a secret handshake that one must find and/or learn to discover them (if they are not already aware of them), and even then, to the readers who discover these redirects, there is no way that this target or any other existing article on Wikipedia will result in anything other than a WP:SURPRISE. Steel1943 (talk) 05:38, 11 July 2020 (UTC)
- (nominator comment) Also, regarding "{{Tq|A corpus of operas is definitely a thing}}" ... okay, but the target is a list article, and not a "corpus" in the sense I think you are referring. The target is a list, and even with that, if the intent is to have these redirects target a list article, these redirects are ambiguous anyways. For one, Lists of operas exists, and the opera-related lists just break off from there. If anything, though I still support "delete" as the first choice for the reasons I already said, I guess I now support very weak retarget to Lists of operas as a compromise ... but either way, seeing that these redirects could now also be considered ambiguous retains my stance to oppose "keep". Steel1943 (talk) 05:48, 11 July 2020 (UTC)
- It's not a List(s) of operas; it's a comprehensive list of composers and their operas, in assorted genres. That equates to a [https://www.google.com/search?newwindow=1&sxsrf=ALeKk02iYr3Y6JUy88bPuklHbvbzXWdDOQ%3A1594447831037&source=hp&ei=1lcJX96nPNOc-gSW4pbQAQ&q=%22corpus+of+operas%22&oq=%22corpus+of+operas%22&gs_lcp=CgZwc3ktYWIQAzIGCAAQFhAeOgUIABCxAzoICAAQsQMQgwE6AggAOggIABAWEAoQHlDUEljyN2DUOmgAcAB4AIABwAGIAbcTkgEEMC4xOJgBAKABAaoBB2d3cy13aXo&sclient=psy-ab&ved=0ahUKEwje6tCExcTqAhVTjp4KHRaxBRoQ4dUDCAk&uact=5 corpus of operas]. There's no secret handshake; it's a redirect of a large 10-year-old well-established article following a page move -- no one needs to know about or use the old title but it is retained as are all legitimate titles after a move so that it can be found if and when necessary. Please read WP:R#DELETE. Please stop WP:BLUDGEONING. -- Softlavender (talk) 06:13, 11 July 2020 (UTC)
- Please stop yelling. And wow, you just pulled one of those acts I usually see editors do on WP:AFDs: Stating information that would have been super helpful to say at the beginning of the discussion that seems like some sort of trump card to make a nominator look dumb. (In AFDs, it's a surprise reference ... here, it's apparently explaining "{{Tq|...it's a comprehensive list of composers}}. That statement would have made this whole process 1000% simpler for everybody. Steel1943 (talk) 08:37, 11 July 2020 (UTC)
- Keep, the original title, and actually better than the present one, and who wants to type any "List of ..." when searching for something? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:38, 11 July 2020 (UTC)
- {{Ping|Gerda Arendt}} You may want to see "Special:PrefixIndex/List of" ... but either way, looks like this whole deal has been clarified now. I'm sure a request to move the page back will get a good amount of support. Steel1943 (talk) 08:41, 11 July 2020 (UTC)
:The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.
