. signed, Rosguill talk 05:15, 28 June 2021 (UTC)
This is an inappropriate use of {{tl|R from surname}} due to the disambiguator. It is also not a plausible search term due to it being non-standard. It is additionally problematic because it is still ambiguous; his son Alexander Goehr followed him into his line of work. -- Tavix (talk) 21:09, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
- I've fixed the one link at Princess Tam Tam. I'm confused as to why that link and this redirect was created. Can Roman Spinner please give an explanation? — J947 ‡ message ⁓ edits 21:35, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
- Keep. "Goehr" was one of this composer's professional names and it was the name under which he was billed in the on-screen credits of the film Princess Tam Tam, as can be seen [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GCjwjB8xYLI here at 1:02.]
:Since it has been pointed out that this is an inappropriate use of {{tl|R from surname}} due to the disambiguator, it should be revised to a more appropriate one, perhaps {{tl|R from short name}}. If there is no appropriate template, perhaps this redirect can avoid using a redirect template. Although it may be non-standard, it does still remain as a plausible search term, since it is one of the names under which Walter Goehr was credited.
:While it may appear to be additionally problematic because it is still ambiguous in that his son Alexander Goehr followed him into his line of work, there is no indication that his son was ever billed or credited as simply "Goehr" and therefore Goehr (composer and conductor) would be only a search term for the father and not for the son. However, to avoid any possible misunderstandings, a hatnote can be added atop the father's entry — Goehr (composer and conductor) redirects here. For his son, see Alexander Goehr.
:As for fixing the "Goehr (composer and conductor)|Goehr" link at Princess Tam Tam so that it displays "Walter Goehr|Goehr" — since in addition to being credited as simply "Goehr", Walter Goehr was also credited as "G. Walter Goehr", "George Walter" and "Walter George", piping his alternative names as "Walter Goehr|alternative name" makes it appear at "What links here" that he was solely credited as "Walter Goehr" and does not give users the opportunity to discover in what projects he was credited under other names.
:Finally, I always try to explain my edits as fully as I can in my edit summaries. At 03:18, 4 June 2017 I wrote, "Redirecting main header delineating the appellation of German musical personality, Goehr (composer and conductor) [per his billing in the credits of the 1935 Josephine Baker feature Princess Tam Tam], to its full form, Walter Goehr"[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Goehr_(composer_and_conductor)&action=history]. I had hoped that it would have been able to resolve any confusion as to why that link and this redirect was created. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 01:00, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
::This is all very well, but I think the problem that it is non-standard still stands. No reader is going to search up a term using parentheses. Wilhelm Tell DCCXLVI converse | fings wot i hav dun 01:48, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
:::Ultimately, Goehr (composer and conductor) is simply a redirect with a parenthetical qualifier. Anyone searching for a film composer known simply as "Goehr" is going to type "Goehr" and will see, as one of the options, "Goehr (composer and conductor)". Redirects with parenthetical qualifiers are very common — there are hundreds of thousands of such redirects at various redirect categories, such as [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Redirects_from_moves?from=G Category:Redirects from moves.] —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 04:05, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
:::*This is all well reasoned, but I'm not convinced that Walter is the primary topic for this search term, especially considering that Alexander is significantly more prominent. — J947 ‡ message ⁓ edits 07:27, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
:::*Walter Goehr was not known simply as "Goehr", the credits from Princess Tam Tam displays it simply as Goehr due to space considerations. Someone who only has a surname to go off of to find an article would use the surname page Goehr, not type Goehr (composer and conductor) as a search term—it's too unwieldy. -- Tavix (talk) 13:25, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
:::::There is no indication of a spacing problem in the credits. In fact, there is plenty of unused space in the on-screen slide containing Goehr's name. European films of the 1920s and 1930s frequently made such artistic choices in depicting some names in large print as solely surnames, while other names were depicted in full form.
:::::Additionally, the redirect "Goehr (composer and conductor)" is not merely a search term. As pointed out above, Walter Goehr used a number of professional names, among them, Goehr (composer and conductor), G. Walter Goehr, George Walter (composer) or Walter George (composer). Users clicking on "What links here" at Walter Goehr's article should have the opportunity to determine under which name form he was credited in each of his individual projects.
:::::By replacing his piped credit "Goehr (composer and conductor)|Goehr" with the piped credit "Walter Goehr|Goehr", as was just done at Princess Tam Tam, makes it appear under "What links here" that he was credited on Princess Tam Tam as "Walter Goehr" and denies users the opportunity of making that determination.
:::::As for Walter Goehr's son Alexander, also a composer and conductor, anyone typing simply "Goehr", will indeed find both father and son at the Goehr surname page. The chief purpose of the redirect "Goehr (composer and conductor)" is for use in the credits of Princess Tam Tam and any other film or recording that billed Walter Goehr as "Goehr".
:::::If an uncertainty is still seen as existing, a hatnote atop Walter Goehr's article — Goehr (composer and conductor) redirects here. For his son, see Alexander Goehr — would resolve it. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 05:09, 28 May 2021 (UTC)
- Keep this is an article about a person with the name Goehr who was a composer and a conductor so it's completely harmless. Nobody will benefit from it's deletion and given that it was created by a human at least one person has found it useful in the past, so it's far from impossible other people will in the future. Thryduulf (talk) 15:10, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
::The harm ultimately derives from its ambiguity; Walter Goehr is not the only Goehr who was a composer and conductor, his son Alexander was too. -- Tavix (talk) 15:38, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
{{resize|91%|Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.}}
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, signed, Rosguill talk 05:36, 6 June 2021 (UTC)
- Tavix, I can't find anything at Alexander Goehr suggesting he was a conductor. All mentions of conducting are either about his father or a third party doing the conducting. The mention at Alexander Goehr#Walter Goehr can read like Alexander was conducting at first glance, but is still referring to Walter. --BDD (talk) 16:12, 13 June 2021 (UTC)
- I noticed that Alexander is more known as a composer, but when I was poking around when making the nomination I did make sure that he did some conducting. For example, Semantic Scholoar describes him as: [https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/Twelve-Note-Methodology-in-the-Music-of-Alexander-Rowlands/bc81636313fc6eb9a4f28368d37a89336df45a0d Alexander Goehr is a leading member of British musical life today through his manifold activities as composer, university professor, broadcaster and conductor.] -- Tavix (talk) 16:44, 13 June 2021 (UTC)
- ::Thanks for the confirmation. That makes me a weak keep rather than an outright keep. Walter being credited mononymously is still something strong we should take into account IMO. A potential compromise would be to flesh out the lede of Walter's article, something to the tune of "His son Alexander also became a composer", so we have a quasi-hatnote. This is still not a super likely search term, but especially unlikely for Alexander, and the net result is not unlike redirecting "Joe Uniquename" to Joe Uniquename, Sr. when both senior and junior have articles. --BDD (talk) 15:29, 14 June 2021 (UTC)
- Keep to aid search of Goehr, the composer and conductor. Replace {{tl|R from surname}} with {{tl|R from short name}}, and add the hatnote for son at the father's page per Roman. Undo the pipe link change at Princess Tam Tam to make the redirect appear at "What links here". However future editors will not have the benefit of this Rfd, and may well go and change the piped link again. - Jay (Talk) 14:00, 18 June 2021 (UTC)
:The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.
