. Legoktm (talk) 06:31, 5 October 2022 (UTC)
{{No redirect|Sympathy for the Devil (upcoming film)}} could equally point to Joel Kinnaman, who is also apparently slated to star in this film. {{No redirect|The Bricklayer (upcoming film)}} could equally point to Nina Dobrev or Aaron Eckhart, who are apparently slated to appear in the film. {{No redirect|Revolver (upcoming film)}} could equally point to Maya Hawke or Ethan Hawke, who are apparently slated to appear in the film. Does not make sense to point this redirect to only one of the various notable people who will be part of this subject. (Also, see Draft:The Bricklayer (upcoming film) or Draft:Revolver (upcoming film).) Steel1943 (talk) 21:49, 11 September 2022 (UTC)
:* Keep Redirect from film to director.
:Paradoctor (talk) 22:06, 11 September 2022 (UTC)
::This comment refers to {{No redirect|Revolver (upcoming film)}} and {{No redirect|The Bricklayer (upcoming film)}}, unless stated otherwise. Steel1943 (talk) 22:43, 11 September 2022 (UTC)
:* Retarget to Yuval Adler, the film's director.
:Paradoctor (talk) 22:11, 11 September 2022 (UTC)
::This comment refers to {{No redirect|Sympathy for the Devil (upcoming film)}}, unless stated otherwise. Steel1943 (talk) 22:43, 11 September 2022 (UTC)
:*{{Ping|Paradoctor}} If possible, please provide a guideline, essay, or previous discussion(s)that states this is precedence. Thanks. Steel1943 (talk) 22:11, 11 September 2022 (UTC)
:*:We redirect from creative works to their creators all the time. Unless the work is notable on its own, that's where I expect to find encyclopedic information about the work, as opposed to the narrow view from a production employee. Paradoctor (talk) 22:28, 11 September 2022 (UTC)
:*::{{Ping|Paradoctor}} Thanks for the explanation behind your rationale. As such, I just reviewed the verbiage of {{Tl|R from work}}, and since the template includes the verbiage "{{Tq|...or subject related to the work...}}, I believe there could be an equal claim that this template could be used for an actor slated to appear in the film. There's not really any evidence that I can see that proves the director of these subjects is what the reader is looking for when searching these terms; without this solidified connection, this redirect poses the WP:XY ambiguous issue I had stated in my initial rationale. (Also, I'm going to attempt to merge all of these discussions since I think repeating the same statement on all is a bit cumbersome for both of us.) Steel1943 (talk) 22:33, 11 September 2022 (UTC)
:*:::{{tquote|merge all of these discussions}} I'd appreciate that. Paradoctor (talk) 22:39, 11 September 2022 (UTC)
:*::::Done: Discussions merged together. Steel1943 (talk) 22:43, 11 September 2022 (UTC)
:*:::::Thank you.
:*:::::First, I didn't say that {{tquote|the director of these subjects is what the reader is looking for}}. I said that is where information about the work belongs and is expected to be found.
:*:::::{{tquote|there could be an equal claim}} Not at all. XY would apply among actors, sure. But the director is the unique, central role in a production. They are the author, they decide who works on the film, and they decide what the finished film looks like. Everyone else's contributions are subordinate to that.
:*:::::On a different tack, let's assume the film was released, but is not notable. Following your reasoning, we couldn't have any redirects from films to actors or directors. Paradoctor (talk) 23:00, 11 September 2022 (UTC)
:*::::::I follow your rationale, but there's still the issue of multiple choices of targets. Why not target, say, the production studio or producer, for example instead? Those could potentially be as closely connected to these subjects as the director. And even then, films have been notorious at times to change directors while in production. In addition, the aforementioned actors in my nomination statement also have their respective films mentioned in their filmographies, meaning the films are mentioned, but apparently not identified by more than just their name, in multiple articles. This is why I was hoping that either there was a policy/essay or precedence in place for this already; as far as I can tell, there's really no established place where these redirects should target, meaning the default resolution would be to delete them. Steel1943 (talk) 23:16, 11 September 2022 (UTC)
:*:::::::Film producer: {{tquote|the director makes the creative decisions during the making of the production, the producer typically manages logistics and business operations}} Fine print aside, the director calls the shots about what the end result looks like.
:*:::::::{{tquote|potentially be as closely connected to these subjects}} That's fine print. Edge cases exist, but they don't define the norm.
:*:::::::{{tquote|change directors while in production}} Also fine print. A film can have several directors, so we decide on the merits of the case. The norm is one director, and AFAIK, this is the case with the three redirects under consideration.
:*:::::::{{tquote|the default resolution}} As I pointed out before, that is not what in practice happens. I note that you didn't address my "different tack", either. The way I see it, what you are asking here for is a substantial policy discussion. Paradoctor (talk) 23:41, 11 September 2022 (UTC)
:*::::::::"{{Tq|that is not what in practice happens}}" ... That's the problem, I don't see any information about what happens in practice anywhere. My "default resolution" is in regards to what usually occurs to redirects that are deemed ambiguous per WP:XY, such as the issue I see with these. Steel1943 (talk) 00:04, 12 September 2022 (UTC)
- Delete per Steel1943, strengthened by the fact that "upcoming" redirects are WP:COSTLY due to the maintenance burden associated with them when they go out of date. -- Tavix (talk) 18:35, 13 September 2022 (UTC)
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{{resize|91%|Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.}}
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, CycloneYoris talk! 01:59, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
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{{resize|91%|Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.}}
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, ✗plicit 14:31, 26 September 2022 (UTC)
- Delete per nom as no appropriate target. I am not convinced that the director's page is what readers are looking for, or should be looking for. Jay 💬 18:20, 4 October 2022 (UTC)
:The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.
