Wikipedia:Reference desk/Humanities#Ecclesiastical customs.2C England

Anthropologists use the term "foodways" to cover social customs and practices related to the consumption of food, ranging from recipes to dining etiquette. Many people use the term "drinking culture" to cover social customs and practices related to the consumption of alcoholic beverages. What about the consumption of non-alcoholic beverages, e.g. tea? I recently read a novel in which a short chapter is called "A Short Chapter About Tea", discussing the characters' tea-drinking habits and preferences, and I'm trying to think how to describe it. Nyttend (talk) 09:52, 9 June 2025 (UTC)

:Tea culture has a profound impact on society, influencing social customs, traditions, and even political movements. In different eras and regions, tea is not only a drink, but also a catalyst for communication, hospitality, and meditation. While Japan focuses on precision and beauty, and tea is often tasted in a quiet environment, India values ​​rich flavors and spices, and tea drinking is a communal experience as well as a symbol of refinement and social status. From a philosophical perspective, Japanese and Indian tea cultures are at opposite ends of the spectrum. Japanese tea culture focuses on meditation and ritual, while Indian tea culture focuses on socializing and daily life. Chinese and British tea cultures are somewhere in between, with Chinese tea culture being closer to Japanese and British tea culture being closer to Indian. Stanleykswong (talk) 11:40, 9 June 2025 (UTC)

::We have articles on Tea culture (see also Chado aka "Teaism"), Coffee culture, and on Yerba mate. If there is not a word embracing all of these (and other) non-alcoholic beverage-related cultural phenomena, perhaps there ought to be. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.6.81.243 (talk) 14:37, 9 June 2025 (UTC)

:::Coffee, tea and yerba mate are the world's three most popular naturally caffeinated drinks.^{[https://books.google.com/books?id=2pb7EAAAQBAJ&pg=PA2&dq=%22third-most+popular+naturally+caffeinated+drink%22&hl=en]} What seems to be missing from our lexicon is a brief generic term for "naturally caffeinated drink".  ​‑‑Lambiam 15:59, 9 June 2025 (UTC)

:::Yes, there is no common name for caffeinated beverages. But generally, people would classify tea, coffee, and sometimes yerba mate as caffeinated beverages. In fact, other plant seeds, such as guarana and kola nuts, have higher caffeine content. Why are they not widely accepted as caffeinated beverages by most people? Stanleykswong (talk) 16:39, 9 June 2025 (UTC)

::Japanese "high culture" of tea focuses on ritual, but in everyday life "precision and beauty" aren't a large factor in tea drinking in Japan, where it is simply the most common unsweetened drink. Likewise the idea of a matcha latte is unthinkable in high culture but relatively common in daily life. I'm not sure whether the original question intends to limit the conversation to high culture or not, but we are more likely to have articles about ritualized practices than everyday uses. Dekimasuよ! 06:00, 10 June 2025 (UTC)

:::Yes, you are right, everyday drinks are different from Tea Ceremony (Chado). Busy urbanites may not have time to practice Chado, and all they need is a simple cup of tea or coffee to wake them up in the morning or help digest lunch. In this case, bottled tea or coffee sold in street corner vending machines can meet their needs well. Stanleykswong (talk) 07:16, 10 June 2025 (UTC)

Apropos of nothing in particular, I'll place a general reminder here to review WP:LLMTALK. Dekimasuよ! 08:07, 10 June 2025 (UTC)

So, what I was meaning: is there a term that includes tea culture, coffee culture, alcohol culture, and everything else, including V8 and the cola wars? Looking for the word suggested or wished-for by the IP response, if it exists. Nyttend (talk) 23:39, 10 June 2025 (UTC)

:A term in (relatively rare^{[https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=drinking+culture,coffee+culture,tea+culture,mate+culture,beverage+culture&year_start=1980&year_end=2022&corpus=en&smoothing=3&hl=en]}) use is beverage culture:

:*{{tq|Coffee, with its rich aroma and stimulating qualities, is a cornerstone of beverage culture worldwide.}}^{[https://books.google.com/books?id=6MdDEQAAQBAJ&pg=PA49&dq=Coffee,+with+its+rich+aroma+and+stimulating+qualities,+is+a+cornerstone+of+beverage+culture+worldwide.&hl=en]}

:*{{tq|Japan's beverage culture is deeply intertwined with its culinary traditions.}}^{[https://books.google.com/books?id=nVtNEQAAQBAJ&pg=PA123&dq=%22Japan's+beverage+culture+is+deeply+intertwined+with+its+culinary+traditions.%22&hl=en]}

:*{{tq|To understand the place of tea drinking in the Buddhist monastery and in society more generally, we need to widen our scope from looking at monastic tea rituals so as to understand Song–dynasty beverage culture as a whole.}}^{[https://books.google.com/books?id=9VgEEAAAQBAJ&pg=PA130&dq=%22To+understand+the+place+of+tea+drinking+in+the+Buddhist+monastery+and+in+society+more+generally,+we+need+to+widen+our+scope+from+looking+at+monastic+tea+rituals+so+as+to+understand+Song-dynasty+beverage+culture+as+a+whole.%22&hl=en]}

: ​‑‑Lambiam 12:59, 11 June 2025 (UTC)

In the film Zulu Dawn, Burt Lancaster portrays Anthony Durnford with what he probably thought was an Irish accent. Do we know what sort of accent Durnford actually had? He was, it is true, born in Co. Leitrim, but his family were not Irish and he was brought up largely in Germany. Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 21:39, 9 June 2025 (UTC)

:If it's documented, the best place to look would be in the two books by his *ahem* close friend Frances Colenso in which he is apparently central. Being also a British 'army brat', I think it most likely that it would be generic educated southern English, with an overlay of RP (such as it was in the mid-19th century), as would be expected of a Commissioned Officer and which his Father General E. W. Durnford likely also spoke. There are several other British Military Durnfords listed at Durnford; they seem to be generally from the Southern portion of England, and some may be related in ways absent from our articles, and related to Anthony Durnford. This is of course all speculation. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.6.81.243 (talk) 10:06, 10 June 2025 (UTC)

::Our article might be better describing him as Anglo-Irish rather than just plain Irish. Alansplodge (talk) 12:41, 15 June 2025 (UTC)

:::I don't think he was even that. There doesn't seem to be any family connexion with Ireland, except being posted there in pursuit of their duties. DuncanHill (talk) 21:15, 15 June 2025 (UTC)

= June 10 =

What was Matthiessen's later opinion of the CIA? Did he ever stop working for the CIA, or claim to stop working for it? Did he regret working for them, have remorse for deceiving people about the Partisan Review? I realize he was a reporter, probably not involved in counterintelligence, but did he assassinate anyone while working for it, or know about assassinations because he worked for the cia? In any case, what happened to his reputation? Are his nonfiction books still trusted?Rich (talk) 12:47, 10 June 2025 (UTC)

:Given the nature of Intelligence agencies, I think it's unlikely that most of these questions will have answers that have ever been revealed.

:Most intelligence work, to the extent of my knowledge, boils down to information gathering and analysis; I suspect only a very few employees (of whom there have been many) of any Intelligence Agencies have been called upon to assassinate anyone, and such operations would not be routinely known to most of their more humdrum colleagues.

:I don't see why his having worked for the CIA would have any bearing on his non-fiction books, except where (if at all) they might have impinged on matters related to US intelligence; about those he might have chosen to, or been obliged to, be less than open, but the same would apply to almost any writer whether a former IA employee or not, and readers should always be aware of this factor. See, perhaps, Covert operation. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.6.81.243 (talk) 18:32, 10 June 2025 (UTC)

::I asked that because the CIA was newer and smaller back then. Could have been much more casual, based on relationships. If we want to know what the CIA was willing to stoop to back then, we should examine the lives of wellknown agents.Rich (talk) 02:07, 11 June 2025 (UTC)

You would need to discover a nexus between his work in one area with another. For example, what does The Snow Leopard have to do with the CIA? If there a pattern of nexuses then OK. But making aspersion-like questions "Are his nonfiction books still trusted?" and "Did he assassinate anyone" without evidence is odd. Simply working for the CIA doesn't make him a bad person who broadly can't be trusted. -- GreenC 19:51, 10 June 2025 (UTC)

:::I somewhat disagree. A journalist with an agenda is ok to me, but a journalist with a hidden agenda isn't right. And if a book of his like The Snow Leappard had something to do with his cia work, it would make me distrust what he wrote in it. But even if it didn't have anything to udo with his cia work, I would keep in mind he wasn't completely trustworthy about his reporting as a cia agent before, for reasons. How do I know if different reasons won't make him dishonest in The Snow Leopard? Rich (talk) 23:46, 10 June 2025 (UTC)

::::Also Matthiessen misled some sincere journalists and philosophers who contributed to Partisan Review, not knowing what was up. That's a lot of work they put in.Rich (talk) 23:50, 10 June 2025 (UTC)

:::::Two magazines are being conflated here. Paris Review (the magazine that Matthiessen co-founded and worked at briefly) and the Partisan Review are entirely different publications although both had CIA connections at points during their long histories. Cullen328 (talk) 06:37, 11 June 2025 (UTC)

:::::And the Paris Review was (and is) a perfectly legitimate literary magazine, otherwise it would not have worked as a cover, so the work of other contributors was not 'wasted': the fact that one of its several founders was a CIA agent does not invalidate it or what it published then.

:::::You seem to think that someone who was at one point a CIA (or other IA) operative forever contaminates everything they touch – the World is not like that. Nor is covert activity in the service and interests of one's country necessarily a bad thing. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.6.81.243 (talk) 10:33, 11 June 2025 (UTC)

::::::Yeah I do think that. Just as I think the CIA putting undercover agents in the Peace Corp, and the FBI putting undercover agents in protest groups is an awful contamination. That's how the world is. Also, look below for some of the information that I requested about Matthiesen's remorse, or at least regret. Rich (talk) 12:13, 12 June 2025 (UTC)

::::Peter Matthiessen was recruited into the CIA while in college (B.A. Yale 1950).[https://www.npr.org/2014/04/06/297154718/peter-matthiessen-co-founder-of-the-paris-review-dies-at-86] His main assignment was to monitor and report on communist activities in France, particularly among American expatriates and the French left. He stated that he was tasked with “keeping an eye on communist ‘enemies,’ who were… out on the street corners peddling L’Humanité,” the French Communist Party newspaper.[https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2014/04/boris-pasternak-peter-matthiesen-the-literary-legacy-of-the-central-intelligence-agency.html] In interviews, Matthiessen described his work as “running errands and carrying messages and false passports between agents in Paris”.[https://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-culture/peter-matthiessens-lifelong-quest-peace-180950444/] Matthiessen's life as a writer and spy ended in 1953, after two years. He became disillusioned with the CIA, particularly due to its elitist culture and the anticommunist witch hunts in the U.S., which he found repellent.[https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2014/04/boris-pasternak-peter-matthiesen-the-literary-legacy-of-the-central-intelligence-agency.html][https://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-culture/peter-matthiessens-lifelong-quest-peace-180950444/] He later described his CIA stint as the only adventure in his life that he regretted, calling it “youthful folly” and explaining that he was motivated by a mix of patriotism and the opportunity to write in Paris.[https://www.npr.org/2014/04/06/297154718/peter-matthiessen-co-founder-of-the-paris-review-dies-at-86] — GreenC 01:14, 12 June 2025 (UTC)

:::::That's a good answer, thank you.Rich (talk) 12:08, 12 June 2025 (UTC)

The last sentence in Wayne Rosing reads:

:In 2010, he partially endowed a professor in theoretical astrophysics at the University of California, Santa Barbara held by Lars Bildsten.{{Cite web |title= The Wayne Rosing, Simon and Diana Raab Chair in Theoretical Astrophysics |publisher= University of California, Santa Barbara |url= https://web.archive.org/web/20120524004744/https://www.kitp.ucsb.edu/outreach/giving/endowment/endowed-chairs/wayne-rosing-simon-and-diana-raab-chair-in-theoretical-astr |accessdate= April 24, 2024 }}

{{reflist-talk}}

This sentence doesn't make sense, to me, and I am not familiar enough with academic credentials to try and clarify it. -- GreenC 19:44, 10 June 2025 (UTC)

: I'd read that to mean "he partially endowed a chair in theoretical astrophysics". But US-speak often goes to incomprehensible places, so I dunno. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 20:31, 10 June 2025 (UTC)

::I'd interpret this as a typo for he partially endowed a professorate. The cited source speaks of the "Wayne Rosing, Simon and Diana Raab Chair in Theoretical Astrophysics", so the endowment was made by Rosing and the Raabs. See endowed chair if this isn't familiar to you. Nyttend (talk) 00:13, 11 June 2025 (UTC)

:::Curiously, the edit adding this info had the edit summary "(endowed a chair) ".

:::I have changed the wording to, "he co-endowed a chair".  ​‑‑Lambiam 10:18, 11 June 2025 (UTC)

= June 11 =

An IP editor says that Al Scates, an American former volleyball player and coach, was born on June 13, not June 9 as we currently have it. I have asked for a source, but can anyone here find one, please? It would be nice to fix this for the gentleman's upcoming 86th birthday. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 20:55, 11 June 2025 (UTC)

:The video from UCLA's YouTube account, used as a reference in the article, states that he was born on June 13. 68.187.174.155 (talk) 00:07, 12 June 2025 (UTC)

::Two sources:

::*{{tq|“I was playing 18 holes of golf by my birthday on June 13, 2011,” he said.}}^{[https://www.ocregister.com/2012/04/20/uclas-al-scates-a-volleyball-innovator/]}

::*[https://www.volleyhall.org/al-scates.html Al Scates' page] at the International Volleyball Hall of Fame.

::‑‑Lambiam 01:06, 12 June 2025 (UTC)

:A user named Decafpenguin posted that June 9 date a couple of decades ago,[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Al_Scates&diff=prev&oldid=65114902] without a source, and the penguin left Wikipedia a year later. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:03, 12 June 2025 (UTC)

::Take note. This is what coffee does to a person penguin. Aaron Liu (talk) 01:44, 13 June 2025 (UTC)

::: Nay, that is what decaffeinated beverages do to a penguin. They're the deoxygenated air or wordless novels of our culinary cornucopia. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 03:56, 13 June 2025 (UTC)

{{Section resolved|1=Thanks, all. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 11:07, 12 June 2025 (UTC)}}

= June 13 =

Are North and South Korea the only UN member states that dispute the sovereignty of another UN member? Rojomoke (talk) 07:38, 13 June 2025 (UTC)

:No, there are quite a few others. See List of states with limited recognition for a comprehensive list. Daveosaurus (talk) 07:51, 13 June 2025 (UTC)

::I don't see any other mutual non-recognition like North and South Korea in there. Both have to be member states. Aaron Liu (talk) 11:56, 13 June 2025 (UTC)

:::Yeah, unless I'm missing something, that article seems to confirm that the Koreas are the only nations with that particular relationship. It's the UN membership that makes it tough; pretty well any breakaway state would qualify otherwise. Matt Deres (talk) 13:36, 13 June 2025 (UTC)

::::A good number of UN member states dispute the sovereignty of the People's Republic of China, but none of them considers itself the rightful government of China. Nyttend (talk) 21:04, 15 June 2025 (UTC)

:::::Nor have China dispute their sovereignty. Aaron Liu (talk) 22:09, 15 June 2025 (UTC)

= June 14 =

This image and source state that the car was driven by Pierre-Henri Raphanel & Lindsay Owen-Jones at Donington 1995. However, per [https://www.racingsportscars.com/type/photo/McLaren/F1%20GTR.html Racing Sports Cars database], the model under racing number 1 in that livery was driven by Ray Bellm and Maurizio Sandro at that race. Could Raphanel and Owen-Jones be an error? Brandmeister^talk 22:06, 14 June 2025 (UTC)

:It could well be: the racingsportscars.com link also shows Raphanel & Owen-Jones as driving the identically liveried #08R, racing No. 16 in that race. Further, that during that season Ray Bellm and Baurizio Sandro Sala (note full name) always drove the #02R car (racing number 1 or 24), while Raphanel and Owen-Jones drove the #04R (Racing No. 3, damaged at Monza) followed by the #08R (racing No. 16 or 25). A mistake by the uploader to Commons seems more likely that one by the site. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.1.137.14 (talk) 13:23, 15 June 2025 (UTC)

= June 15 =

I finished reading Leil Lowndes' How to Talk to Anyone: 92 Little Tricks for Big Success in Relationships, which points out that as of its publication in 2003, publishers sold books of famous one-liners that businessmen could adapt to build rapport with other businessmen. I would like to ask if anyone here can recommend books like that, but also books of English idioms to rework for rhetorical effect, especially from Shakespeare and the King James Bible. Shushimnotrealstooge (talk) 04:58, 15 June 2025 (UTC)

:If you're looking for quotes, we have an entire project devoted to that called Wikiquote, linked [https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Main_Page here]. There you can find many, many quotes related to Shakespeare and the Bible. Speaking more broadly, the topic here is rhetoric. Our article on that is pretty decent and it contains links to modern theorists that may be useful to you. If you want to master rhetoric, you'll need to also study the other portions of discourse: grammar and logic. Searching for business rhetoric yields a lot of promising leads, including a course from Harvard's continuing education program [https://pll.harvard.edu/course/rhetoric-art-persuasive-writing-and-public-speaking here]. Matt Deres (talk) 13:22, 15 June 2025 (UTC)

::Thank you, Matt, for pointing this out to me. It's a bad joke, but considering the way even political candidates speak, I thought rhetoric was a dead art. I will look into this! Shushimnotrealstooge (talk) 22:54, 15 June 2025 (UTC)

Further to :c:Commons:Village pump#T. H. McAllister what can we find about the life of T. H. McAllister, photographer and manufacturing optician of 49 Nassau Street, New York, United States?

[https://www.ngv.vic.gov.au/explore/collection/artist/24326/] has "Established 1865 Closed 1917", presumably referring to the studio; was it continued after his death? By whom? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 11:31, 15 June 2025 (UTC)

:There are pictures dated [https://catalogue.swanngalleries.com/Lots/auction-lot/(EGYPT)-mcallister-t-h-The-Grand-Hall-Karnak-Egypt?saleno=1954&lotNo=319&refNo=513621 ca. 1890] and others [https://www.ngv.vic.gov.au/explore/collection/artist/24326/ dated 1900]. Yann (talk) 12:04, 15 June 2025 (UTC)

:You still looking Andy? Nothing really on T.H. yet, but it's a little difficult to sort out the family so:

:* John McAllister Sr. (1753‐1830) emigrated from Scotland

:* son John McAllister Jr. (1786‐1877)

:* grandsons John A. McAllister (1822‐1896), William Y., and Thomas H.[https://www.librarycompany.org/mcallister/pdf/McAllisterGraphicsCollection.pdf]

:728 Chesnut, Philly [https://www.loc.gov/item/2015651540/ store][https://digital.librarycompany.org/islandora/object/digitool%3A100630 photos], and [https://www.luikerwaal.com/newframe_uk.htm?/merk_mcal_uk.htm this] on magic lanterns i don't see linked at commons. [https://www.kuenzigbooks.com/pages/books/27959/william-y-mcallister/advertising-broadside-william-y-mcallister-spectacles-spy-glasses-thermometers-microscopes?soldItem=true this] suggests some possibly useful references i am unable to locate. fiveby(zero) 02:00, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

:More from The Library Company:

:*[https://www.librarycompany.org/mcallister/ The John A. McAllister Collection of Civil War Era Printed Ephemera, Graphics and Manuscripts]

:*Thomas H. (1824‐1898) became a partner with William as McAllister & Brother from 1853 through 1865 when he moved to New York and established his own optical shop, first at 627 Broadway and then at 49 Nassau Street. [https://www.librarycompany.org/mcallister/pdf/mcallister.pdf JOHN A. MCALLISTER PAPERS #1] and a few more details

:*[https://www.librarycompany.org/mcallister/pdf/McAllister%20family%20business%20timeline.pdf Timeline of McAllister family businesses & partnerships]

:*Thomas Hamilton McAllister (1824‐1898) m. Juliette Warner Munn (d. 1888); NYC optician; no children; died in Brooklyn, NY, buried in Green‐Wood Cemetery; adopted Juliette’s son, who became: Caldwell Warner McAllister (married and had children) [https://www.librarycompany.org/mcallister/pdf/McAllister%20family%20genealogy.pdf MCALLISTER FAMILY GENEALOGY]

...and just google {{google|site:www.librarycompany.org mcallister}}. John A. seems like the most interesting and plenty for an article. fiveby(zero) 02:20, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

From an American document published around 1844:

We calculate to defend the suits to the utmost; and if he gets judgments, the next thing is to collect them [forgiven back rents] — that’s all. They served notice upon George Cipperly, Esq., treasurer of the Anti-Rent Association, to remove the dam of his factory [built against the terms of a non-negotiable, perpetual lease] out of the creek within thirty days, and now they are up. Now let them come. The man that undertakes the job will get a wet jacket, for we are determined to buck the bull off the bridge, and no mistake. Shushimnotrealstooge (talk) 23:00, 15 June 2025 (UTC)

:I think the implication is that anyone who tries to remove Cipperly or his dam will end up being thrown in the creek. Zacwill (talk) 23:30, 15 June 2025 (UTC)

::Agreed. It sounds like a weird idiom at first, but the tail end of the sentence makes it clear. Matt Deres (talk) 19:37, 16 June 2025 (UTC)

::@Zacwill @Matt Deres I see it now. Thank you! Shushimnotrealstooge (talk) 14:58, 17 June 2025 (UTC)

= June 16 =

I read every now and then about lost films and make the assumption that beyond a certain date everything is preserved somewhere. But in research about the phrase "fallen angels" I encountered, for example, a 1997 Australian TV series called Fallen Angels which doesn't appear to have made much of a splash in the public memory. I also recently learned that The Caine Mutiny was adapted early on in the 1950s to an Australian TV film. I don't expect to be able to dial these things up on YouTube or any commercial streaming service, but I guess my question is: to what extent can we expect that TV movies/shows that may not have been considered noteworthy at the time have been preserved in an archive somewhere? And further to that - while I don't have a burning desire to watch a forgotten 1997 drama or a 1959 Australian adaptation of an American novel - to what extent can the public access such archives? Appreciate that the answer will differ from country to country, but I'm kind of interested in all examples. Dr-ziego (talk) 11:28, 16 June 2025 (UTC)

:You might be interested in reading Doctor Who missing episodes — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.221.58.22 (talk) 13:04, 16 June 2025 (UTC)

:It's an interesting question. There's three big classes of considerations: is the item preserved anywhere, can it be identified/retrieved, and can it be shared? If any of those are "no", then you're out of luck, to varying degrees. You can read an interesting story that touches on all that at Marion Stokes. She was a TV archivist that recorded many thousands of hours of television that have subsequently been donated to the Internet Archive. It's virtually a certainty that some material in her collection is not available anywhere else, but even her collection is not yet digitized/available, so it has passed the first hurdle, but is stuck on the second. Matt Deres (talk) 14:25, 16 June 2025 (UTC)

:Lost television broadcast is a good start, and you've already mentioned Lost film. A bit more general is Lost media.-Gadfium (talk) 19:15, 16 June 2025 (UTC)

Just watched Apocalypto the other day. Just thinking about the ending (the villains chase the hero onto the beach to kill him but then run away when they see Spanish ships in the bay - then the hero and his wife decide that those guys coming ashore look like bad news and decide to get the hell away). I've read that the Mayans had some ships, but did they ever set sail to see what was out there at sea? Or did they just stick to fishing distances and figure that there was nothing out there (all the way to the edge? water all the way around the back - sorry, but I don't know what they believed about the shape of the earth), so there was no point? 146.200.107.90 (talk) 20:05, 16 June 2025 (UTC)

:It seems they contented themselves with coastal trade. From [https://oceanexplorer.noaa.gov/explorations/11maya/background/history/history.html The Ancient Maya and the Rise of Maritime Trade]: "Throughout the Terminal and Postclassic Maya periods, precious goods and commodities – including jade, pottery, cotton, obsidian, cacao, and salt – made their way along a coastline stretching from modern Veracruz to Honduras. The vessel of choice was the dugout canoe. These were not humble watercraft, but massive affairs." Clarityfiend (talk) 23:01, 16 June 2025 (UTC)

:See also Maritime trade in the Maya civilization. Clarityfiend (talk) 23:06, 16 June 2025 (UTC)

Strathmore, Angus and East Perthshire and Strathmore, Angus and Perth & Kinross are redirects to Valley of Strathmore. What do these names "mean"? Are these merely geographic indicators for a place that's located in two entities (to take a US example, comparable to "Ray, Indiana and Michigan" in the US), or is there some other meaning? Neither Angus and East Perthshire nor Angus and Perth & Kinross exists, so I assume they aren't single entities, and the title isn't comparable to "Stranraer", "Dumfries and Galloway". But on the other hand, the components aren't all on the same level; Angus, Scotland and Perth and Kinross are local government areas, but East Perthshire is a seat in the House of Commons. Nyttend (talk) 21:03, 16 June 2025 (UTC)

:They are artefacts of previous attempts to disambiguate things or places with Strathmore as their name, and in particular this place which does not have the good manners to confine itself to a single local government area. This is a common problem with the natural world, it refuses to conform itself to administrative convenience. As far as I can see the sequence is 1) 16 December 2005, article created at Strathmore, Angus and East Perthshire, 2) 28 December 2005, article moved to Strathmore, Angus and Perth & Kinross because "local authority areas are std dab tool", 3) 11 September 2011, article moved to Strathmore, Angus because "angus will do", 4) 25 September 2022, article moved to Valley of Strathmore because "Per RM discussion. See talk page". East Perthshire is indeed a seat in the House of Commons, but East Perthshire is also in everyday speech the eastern part of Perthshire. So, yes, your Ray example would appear to be a similar case. DuncanHill (talk) 23:45, 16 June 2025 (UTC)

= June 17 =

If I want to know Kevin Rudd's thoughts, I can find an e-book on Amazon and run it through a machine translator if I don't speak English. If I want to read about the K-Belt Initiative, a Korean system of grants and tax policy to encourage semiconductor production, do they have a political culture of ministers publishing books on their pet projects? Shushimnotrealstooge (talk) 15:29, 17 June 2025 (UTC)

:Confused, how is Rudd relevant, either in his role as PM or his role as ambassador to the US? Nyttend (talk) 21:31, 17 June 2025 (UTC)

::They's using a random contemporary Australian politician as an example. Aaron Liu (talk) 22:03, 17 June 2025 (UTC)

:Probably just the news. Aaron Liu (talk) 22:04, 17 June 2025 (UTC)

Read the paper: The Korea Herald. DOR (ex-HK) (talk) 23:29, 17 June 2025 (UTC)

:Let me say this differently: if I go to the National Assembly's website, can I ask to see the sponsors and co-sponsors of this bill? I would like to know what Korean political participation beyond reading the newspaper looks like. Shushimnotrealstooge (talk) 01:03, 18 June 2025 (UTC)

::{{tqb|if I go to the National Assembly's website, can I ask to see the sponsors and co-sponsors of this bill?}}Yes. You don't even need to ask anyone, just click on (Google-translated) "pending bills" and then click on the one whose sponsors ("proposers") you want to see. Aaron Liu (talk) 04:26, 18 June 2025 (UTC)

= June 18 =

A sentence in "This Earth of Hours" (1959) by James Blish:

: Getting along with these people on the first contact would be vital, and yet the language barrier might well provoke a tragedy wanted by neither side, as the obliteration of Nagasaki in World War II had been provoked by the mistranslation of a single word.

This is new to me. Is there any truth to it? —Tamfang (talk) 05:10, 18 June 2025 (UTC)

:None whatsoever. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 05:41, 18 June 2025 (UTC)

:There is a claim that a misinterpretation of the Japanese verb 黙殺する (mokusatsu suru) contributed to the decision to bomb Hiroshima; see [https://blog.pangeanic.com/worst-translation-mistake here]. I have not tried to evaluate this, but note that Wiktionary gives both the sense "to withhold comment" and "to treat with silent contempt".  ​‑‑Lambiam 06:50, 18 June 2025 (UTC)

::WHAAOE: Mokusatsu.  ​‑‑Lambiam 06:58, 18 June 2025 (UTC)

::Mentioned at Potsdam Declaration#Aftermath. DuncanHill (talk) 07:00, 18 June 2025 (UTC)

::There was also miscommunication over the meaning of "unconditional surrender", described in various histories of the bombings and probably in Wikipedia. 2601:644:8581:75B0:9C2D:563:979D:9458 (talk) 20:57, 18 June 2025 (UTC)

I saw an article a month or two ago, that I think was a blurb about an academic paper, and might have been in one of the "science daily" type of pop-science sites. It talked about non-literate societies (indigenous cultures etc.) that had contact with the outside world, and decided that widespread literacy was something they didn't want or need, since literate societies developed text-based (I remember the term "text-based") rule and legal systems that were then subject to manipulation and whatever the real-world equivalent of wikilawyering is called. That in turn led to inequities developing that a face-to-face culture did a better job of avoiding. Does this sound familiar to anyone? I'm not having any luck with search engines. Thanks. 2601:644:8581:75B0:9C2D:563:979D:9458 (talk) 21:02, 18 June 2025 (UTC)

:Total shot in the dark: Coomaraswamy, Ananda K., [https://archive.org/details/in.gov.ignca.7230/ Bugbear of Literacy] (1945) seem to be along the lines of what you're looking for. MediaKyle (talk) 21:12, 18 June 2025 (UTC)

::Thanks, that looks interesting. I'll try some more web searches based on it. I think the article I saw referred to something more recent, but this will help. 2601:644:8581:75B0:9C2D:563:979D:9458 (talk) 00:50, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

:There are various texts with an incisive analysis of the ailments of Western technocratic society presented from a point of view of some person who only recently made contact with that society, a primitive but unspoilt, ingenue, noble savage. These are invariably fabrications. The reality is that any such person would be gobsmacked, flabbergasted, and unable to make much sense of their bewildering experiences until they become embedded in Western society.  ​‑‑Lambiam 01:17, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

::Yes I'd have to again see the article I mentioned to tell what was involved. I do remember that Ishi was transplanted into US society (late 1800s I guess) and lived in it for decades. When he was old, someone supposedly asked him if there were any worthwhile modern inventions. His answer was "matches". 2601:644:8581:75B0:7504:799F:8140:AC84 (talk) 22:44, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

:::Alas, neither TB vaccines nor anthropologists smart enough to discourage their immunologically vulnerable charges/subjects, that they transported into the heart of a modern city, from frequenting hospital wards had yet been invented. SnowRise ^{let's rap} 06:24, 21 June 2025 (UTC)

:Sounds like the anthropologist James Scott’s “The Art of Not Being Governed”. Can’t remember if he claims that some peoples deliberately turned their backs on literacy but definitely says that illiteracy has advantages in terms of ideology flexibility and preventing formation of hierarchies. Prezbo (talk) 23:08, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

::That would be James C. Scott's The Art of Not Being Governed. DuncanHill (talk) 23:54, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

We are told "the only thing we have to fear is fear itself—nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes...", and we are told that this is a paraphrase of Henry David Thoreau's "Nothing is so much to be feared as fear." E. F. Benson's story "The Terror by Night" (1912) mentions "Fear and misgiving, blind, unreasonable, and paralysing", and then our narrator tells us "There is nothing in the world to fear except fear. You know that as well as I do". Do we know when the journal entry of Thoreau's was first published? and do we know of any other expressions of a similar sentiment between whenever that was and Benson's use? Did Benson read Thoreau? His "you know that as well as I do" suggests to me he was using a fairly well-known idea. And the similarity between FDR's "unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes" and Benson's "blind, unreasonable, and paralysing" fear are also suggestive to me. Is there another author Benson and Roosevelt may have read in common? Or did Roosevelt read Benson? DuncanHill (talk) 21:38, 18 June 2025 (UTC)

:[https://thoreausociety.org/thoreau-fdr/ September 7, 1851] according to a Thoreau Society blog post with some suggested reading. fiveby(zero) 22:13, 18 June 2025 (UTC)

::That was the entry date, not the date the entry was published. DuncanHill (talk) 22:21, 18 June 2025 (UTC)

:::oops, how about this tho {{quote|Fear, Michel de Montaigne maintained in the sixteenth century, "exceeds all other disorders in intensity." Likewise, Francis Bacon thought that "nothing is terrible except fear itself"; the statesman and political theorist Edmund Burke observed that “no passion so effectually robs the mind of all its powers of acting and reasoning as fear”; and Henry David Thoreau believed that “nothing is so much to be feared as fear."|source={{cite book|year=2013|last=Katznelson|first=Ira|title=Fear Itself: The New Deal and the Origins of Our Time|page=1}}}}

:::Be not afraid of sudden fear, Neither of the desolation of the wicked, when it cometh. Proverbs 3:25

:::The only thing I am afraid of is fear. Wellington November 3, 1831. Stanhope (1888) Notes of Conversations with the Duke of Wellington

:::fiveby(zero) 22:39, 18 June 2025 (UTC)

::::Ah thank you, Benson would certainly have known his Proverbs, and would have assumed his readers did too, especially in a story which takes its title from Psalm 91. That one I really ought to have known. And Montaigne, Bacon, Burke, and Wellington, yes they make sense, I can hear them thinking it. Thank you, I expect we're rather overdazzled by FDR nowadays to remember earlier uses. DuncanHill (talk) 22:49, 18 June 2025 (UTC)

:::::Well I know of Bartlett and he must have known his Proverbs, but could have sworn that Wellington quote has popped up on the desks before. Emerson's "Biographical Sketch" in Excursions and has "I subjoin a few sentences taken from his unpublished manuscripts..." and [https://archive.org/details/excursionshenry00thorrich/page/32/mode/2up?q=%22feared+as+fear%22 quotes] so posthumously 1863 for first publication? fiveby(zero) 00:03, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

:::Volume 8 of The Writings of Henry David Thoreau, [https://archive.org/details/writingsofhenryd08thor/page/468/mode/1up?q=%22Nothing+is+so+much+to+be+feared+as+fear.%22 containing the sentence], was published in 1906.  ​‑‑Lambiam 00:53, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

= June 19 =

The Zack Mosely mentioned in the Skyroads (comics) article as being its illustrator for 1930–32, is that actually Zack Mosley or is it just another comic artist with a very similar name? 37.247.31.205 (talk) 05:10, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

:[https://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/obituary-zack-mosley-1405920.html This obituary] of Zachariah Terrell Mosley relates that he found his first job as cartoonist in 1929 as assistant on two daily strips by Dick Calkins, one being "Skyroads".  ​‑‑Lambiam 07:29, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

:The 'Mosely' in the Skyroads article infobox was evidently a typo, which I've now corrected and linked to his article. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.6.41.216 (talk) 16:22, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

It seems like they must have had the opportunity. Was it a strategic choice, other priorities, something else? Prezbo (talk) 10:01, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

:We don't answer requests for opinions, predictions or debate.DOR (ex-HK) (talk) 22:35, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

:[https://www.timesofisrael.com/islamic-state-explains-why-it-doesnt-attack-israel-yet/ Islamic State explains why it doesn’t attack Israel (yet)] Aaron Liu (talk) 00:50, 20 June 2025 (UTC)

::Thanks Prezbo (talk) 02:44, 20 June 2025 (UTC)

:Similar to a dictatorship, internal enemies have a higher priority than external enemies. ISIS prioritizes attacking its internal Muslim enemies, especially “apostates” who do not conform to its ideology or renounce Islamic teachings, rather than external enemies such as Israel. Stanleykswong (talk) 20:10, 21 June 2025 (UTC)

::I don't remember whether The Prince had recommendations about that, but it sounds like common sense. 2601:644:8581:75B0:6E68:5922:69B1:DD4D (talk) 23:14, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

There used to be comic books and magazines with bicolour print, often black and red, but also black and other colours. Which books used this the most or was most known for it? Was this during all of last century? ... 94.234.94.184 (talk) 15:11, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

:Proper books (meaning, not periodicals) used this sometimes too. It was much cheaper than full-colour printing and (supposedly) nicer looking than plain black and white. I mostly associate it with mid-century (say, 1950s to 1970s) as colour became cheaper and higher-quality through the decades. Dr. Seuss didn't technically use it, but the palette used was certainly evocative of it and it was frequently used for early-age reading texts ([https://www.ebay.ca/b/Vintage-School-Readers-In-Antiquarian-Collectible-Books//29223/bn_7022261363 examples]), though not Dick and Jane. I don't recall a lot of comics using two-colour printing; they used reduced palettes, but not usually to that degree. Matt Deres (talk) 23:24, 21 June 2025 (UTC)

:I think it was pretty common among British children's comics of the 20th century, the likes of The Beano, and parodies thereof like Viz. Chuntuk (talk) 14:00, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

My father recalls watching a film, probably in the 1940s, in a cinema in England. It was in a foreign language, probably French, with subtitles, and featured a truckload of dynamite (or some other explosive), whose brakes had failed. It was not a war film. What might it have been? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 18:54, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

:Sounds rather like The Wages of Fear, though that was 1953. Excellent film, by the way. --Antiquary (talk) 19:07, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

::He confirms it is, and thanks you, as do I. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 19:10, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

:::Seconded, that was a great movie. 2601:644:8581:75B0:7504:799F:8140:AC84 (talk) 22:39, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

{{Section resolved|1=Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 19:10, 21 June 2025 (UTC)}}

= June 21 =

I just wrote John Ward (geologist). We have his dates, but not his place of burial.

I have a source saying that his wife, who survived him, was "the daughter of the late Mr. Robert Cooke, of Fenton", but it does not name her.

We know that he was a town councillor, and alderman, but not his political affiliation.

Can anyone fill in those gaps, or add anything else, please? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 19:02, 21 June 2025 (UTC)

:Checking Newspapers.com (pay site), the Staffordshire Sentinel for December 8, 1906, p.10, talks about this guy extensively.[https://www.newspapers.com/image/972701804/?match=1&terms=%22john%20ward%22%20geologist&article=1e504cbd-ce4c-47cb-bf0a-37d8f111dc21] His place of death is given as Longton. It says the funeral was held in the Borough Cemetery at Longton. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:19, 21 June 2025 (UTC)

:(ec) :Conservative. [https://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/viewer/bl/0000347/19061203/146/0006 Staffordshire Sentinel - Monday 03 December 1906, page 6] has two stories, "Death of John Ward, JP, FGS, of Longton", and "Alderman Ward as a Geologist". No mention of wife. Will email the page. DuncanHill (talk) 20:27, 21 June 2025 (UTC)

:{{small|For a second there, I thought you wrote him a letter for some information. Then I read the second sentence. Clarityfiend (talk) 07:18, 22 June 2025 (UTC)}}

::An Englishman would write to John Ward. DuncanHill (talk) 11:32, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

:Funeral took place on Tuesday 4th December 1906, in the afternoon, at the Longton Borough Cemetery. Reported [https://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/viewer/bl/0000347/19061204/108/0005 the same day in the Staffordshire Sentinel]. No wife mentioned. DuncanHill (talk) 11:00, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

:John Ward, born 1837, married Eliza Cooke born 1835, St Peter ad Vincula, Stoke on Trent, 15 March 1860. Bride's father was Robert Cooke. Bride's residence Fenton. DuncanHill (talk) 00:00, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

= June 22 =

For some reason, some Wikis at Fandom are inconsistent on the information they say. For example:

The Disney Wiki says that the period where Owl lives at Piglet's House is just temporary. But the Winniepoodia, however, says that Owl permanently lives in Piglet's House and that modern media just ignores this fact. (Winniepoodia should not be confused with pooh.fandom.com even though both are wikis at Fandom that have Pooh as their subject.)

Are lots of wikis at Fandom inconsistent with respect to what they say?? Georgia guy (talk) 00:35, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

:What are their sourcing standards? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:02, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

: There are zillions of wikis, all run by different people and having different sourcing protocols etc etc. Of course they're often going to say different things about the same subject. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 06:39, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

::User:JackofOz, has Fandom proposed any way to make sure such disagreements are resolved?? Georgia guy (talk) 10:12, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

:::Fandom (website) is a hosting service; they do not care at all about the users of different clients posting inconsistent details about the goings on at the Hundred Acre Wood. Matt Deres (talk) 13:14, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

::::And note that the Disney Wiki likely reflects the details in Disney cartoons, etc., which often make changes from the original stories on which they are based – a source of annoyance particularly to Europeans who see their cultural heritage being thus violated. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.6.41.216 (talk) 15:20, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

thumb

Does anyone have any idea who the "new guest" is supposed to be in the 1914 cartoon Der Stänker? Japan maybe? (See here for some notes on the cartoon.) Zacwill (talk) 08:23, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

Also, am I right in thinking that the implication in the first panel is that Serbia won't stop farting, or am I being vulgar? Zacwill (talk) 09:39, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

:I suspect that the "late" guest may be the Ottoman Empire. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 11:24, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

::I assumed that the black-moustached figure on Germany and Austria's left represented Turkey, but perhaps he is meant to be Hungary? Or Italy? Zacwill (talk) 12:36, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

:::Non, il est un poilu. DuncanHill (talk) 13:09, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

::::France is on the far side between England and Russia, surely. Zacwill (talk) 13:13, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

:::::Agree, and logically, the near-side far left figure should be Italy, next to Germany, then Austria-Hungary. I concur with Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM that the figure in the doorway is the Ottoman Empire. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.6.41.216 (talk) 15:15, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

In 1906 there was a massacre at Karajovo, which led to Mr Wedgwood asking [https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/1906-12-03/debates/fd325d48-af9b-4a66-baea-65f873a971c1/CommonsChamber a question in the House]. So, where was Karajovo and who were the assailants, disguised as Turkish troops? Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 11:11, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

:The Bulgarian Wikipedia has an article on the massacre. It took place at the Bulgarian village of Gorno Karadjovo (now Monokklisia) and was carried out by Greeks as revenge for an earlier Bulgarian attack. See Macedonian struggle. Zacwill (talk) 12:25, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

::Thank you. DuncanHill (talk) 13:12, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

::I'm having difficulty verifying that Karajovo (Bulgaria) is now Monokklisia, Greece. The history on [https://en.museumkarlovo.com/karlovo/history.html Historical Museum Karlovo website] makes no mention of "Monokklisia". --136.56.165.118 (talk) 17:51, 22 June 2025 (UTC) oops -- the search automatically defaulted to "Karlovo" by trying to be helpful -21:17, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

:::But why would it? Karlovo is miles away from Gorno Karadjovo. DuncanHill (talk) 18:55, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

:::Hansard do spell it Karadjovo [https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/1906-11-29/debates/dc57229f-0f9d-4cf9-8f64-2c7bfc8ece4d/KaradjovoMassacre elsewhere]. DuncanHill (talk) 19:04, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

:::To be clear, Karadjovo wasn't in Bulgaria. It was an ethnically Bulgarian village in the Macedonia region, which was part of the Ottoman Empire at the time. After Macedonia was partitioned between Serbia, Bulgaria, and Greece in 1913, it became part of the latter. Zacwill (talk) 06:08, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

In {{cite book|last=Wilson|first=Harold|author-link=Harold Wilson|title=A Prime Minister on Prime Ministers|year=1977|publisher=Weidenfeld & Nicolson and Michael Joseph|location=London|isbn=0-718-11625-9|page=[https://archive.org/details/primeministeronp0000haro/page/294/mode/2up 295]|chapter=Clement Attlee|chapter-url=https://archive.org/details/primeministeronp0000haro/page/276/mode/2up|chapter-url-access=registration|url=https://archive.org/details/primeministeronp0000haro/mode/2up|url-access=registration}} we read that Clement Attlee could be found writing his speeches in the flat at No. 10 "picking out his text with two fingers on a non-standard keyboard, probably going back to Stepney days". So what non-standard keyboard did he use, and has it survived? Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 11:27, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

:Might have been one of these or similar (see the Scientific keyboard section). I suggest this because I've got one (a Model 5 made in 1896 in Stamford, Connecticut) which my mother's family (in England) must have acquired no later than 1950 (she learned to type on it), but probably earlier, possibly even from new.

:Being the first practical portable typewrighter, they were sold and later manufactured worldwide around the turn of the century, so Atlee might well have used or even acquired one when working in Stepney from 1906 as successively a charity volunteer, political candidate, lecturer, Mayor, and (from 1922) MP. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.6.41.216 (talk) 14:52, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

:If you hunt-and-peck with two fingers what does it matter what keyboard layout you're using? Possibly just figurative language, reading the surrounding paragraphs it is to my mind a possible comparison with Churchill's peculiarities of speech writing. That might be due more to my popular American understanding of the personalities tho. fiveby(zero) 15:00, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

I read the Wikipedia article BibleProject. The mission says: "help people experience the Bible as a unified story that leads to Jesus". Eh? Some kind of generic Christian app/website? On this [https://bibleproject.com/articles/abraham-melchizedek-jesus/ page], the video calls Adam and Eve "priestly humans". What does that even mean? I am just reading and taking notes in my King James Version Bible, and I just use that one because it is most influential on the English language, and I want to find the fancy quotes. Anyway, I don't remember Adam and Eve being "priests". What theology is this? And then, the video goes on to say God's promise about a descendant (a Jewish messiah? Jesus?) will come to defeat the evil deceiver (the serpent? Satan?) and restore humanity as royal priests (what is the deal with priests???); and that he will be both a priest and a sacrifice (yep, this refers to Jesus). I have a hunch that this is some kind of Christian interpretation, but I can't really pinpoint what that is. What is this theology?!? Yrotarobal (talk) 22:19, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

:It will be a form of American Evangelicalism (i.e. someone's personal interpretation), likely with elements of Millennialism, espoused by the Project's co-founder Prof. Tim Mackie, which is explicated [https://almostheretical.com/tim-mackie-theology/ here]. (I haven't read it, being a non-literalist Wiccan – good luck!) {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.6.41.216 (talk) 23:08, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

::What is a non-literalist Wiccan? Are non-literalist Wiccans allowed to read non-Wiccan literature like the Bible or Tanakh or Quran? Yrotarobal (talk) 00:24, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

:::It means I take the concepts of the Wiccan 'deities' to be useful metaphors, helpful in shaping my mental approach to the World, rather than being literally existing entities.

:::Wicca has no controlling authorities or prescribed texts, so no-one can "allow" or "disallow" me anything. The central 'Wiccan Rede' (= advice) is "An it harm none, do what thou wilt" (in modern English, "So long as it doesn't harm anyone (including yourself), do what you will", with "will" having a triple meaning I won't expand here).

:::I do read other paths' texts, taking from them anything I find useful (Wicca is consciously a modern syncretism), and I have actively studied for over 50 years their origins and the historical (or not) facts underlying them, particularly the Judeo-Christian-Islamic ones, because of their historical and cultural importance, and because I am fascinated by history. However, we digress from the OP's query. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.6.41.216 (talk) 14:25, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

:Mission statements are often generic. "lead to Jesus" is AFAIK a generic Christian phrase meaning finding salvation. Aaron Liu (talk) 01:20, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

::What's the meaning of "finding salvation"? (In encyclopaedic language for non-Christians please.) HiLo48 (talk) 02:14, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

:::You could oversimplify it to "saving your soul".{{pb}}{{hatnote|For encyclopedic language, see our Salvation in Christianity encyclopedia article!}} Aaron Liu (talk) 02:22, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

::::I don't have a soul. The first paragraph of that linked article is chock full of more insider Christian jargon - sin, separation from God, justification entailed by this salvation, etc. HiLo48 (talk) 02:32, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

:::::Unless you're a robot, you have a soul. :) ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 05:34, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

::::::Citation needed. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 12:21, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

::::::::By definition. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:25, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

:::::::::What does the definition refer to? Point a soul out to me. Describe it mathematically. How can we know that a robot does not have one? --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 14:21, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

:::::::::::If you have self-awareness, then you have a soul. The essence of your being. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 14:48, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

::::::::::::No, if I have self-awareness I have self-awareness. For it to be a soul, that self-awareness would need to persist after the death of the body. What is your proof of that? --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 15:04, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

::::::::::::Oh, you mean my smell, or "mystic aura".  Card Zero  (talk) 15:28, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

::::::::::Pretty sure ChatGPT hasn't got one yet, but you never know... (also has legal immunity, which is even more useful). Martinevans123 (talk) 14:29, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

:::::::Note: not just robots... Martinevans123 (talk) 12:54, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

:::The concept is part of Christian doctrine. If you want to understand the meaning of "finding salvation", you need to accept the meaning as understood in that context. In a nutshell, Christians believe in eternal life. You, like everyone else, will eventually end up either in hell or in heaven. In the Last Judgement, Jesus Christ will make the decision which of the two it will be. Because of the original sin, every human (except perhaps for Maria and a few more lucky ones) is by default destined to hell, thought to be an undesirable fate, even for just a moment but especially as this will last forever. But there is a way out. Through his death, Jesus has atoned for the original sin weighing down on everyone; by following Him, you can hope to find salvation, meaning, be saved from the certain prospect of hell and instead be allowed to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.  ​‑‑Lambiam 06:56, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

::::That entire paragraph is full of Christian beliefs written as facts. I find that very unhelpful, and it's obviously not encyclopedic. HiLo48 (talk) 09:57, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

:::::Seems to me like a reading comprehension problem. At no point did Lambian imply that the beliefs he was describing were objectively true. Zacwill (talk) 10:20, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

::::::I suspect that "[t]hat entire paragraph" is intended to refer to the (one-paragraph) lead section of Salvation in Christianity. If so, the claim that this paragraph is full of Christian beliefs "written as facts" is mistaken. The factual statements contained in this lead section are encyclopedic statements about beliefs, not essentially different in nature from a factual, encyclopedic statement like "Aristotle believed that four classical elements make up everything in the terrestrial spheres: earth, air, fire and water."  ​‑‑Lambiam 12:07, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

:::::Yes, the Bible itself is full of Christian beliefs written as facts, isn't it. It wasn't written as an encyclopedia by a global community of online volunteer editors. Never mind. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:30, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

:::::Let's break this down.

:::::The concept is part of Christian doctrine. Topic sentence If you want to understand the meaning of "finding salvation", you need to accept the meaning as understood in that context. In a nutshell, Christians believe in eternal life. Statement of Christian belief You, like everyone else, will eventually end up either in hell or in heaven. Christian belief expressed in a personal way In the Last Judgement, Jesus Christ will make the decision which of the two it will be. Christian eschatological belief Because of the original sin, every human (except perhaps for Maria and a few more lucky ones) is by default destined to hell, thought to be an undesirable fate, even for just a moment but especially as this will last forever. But there is a way out. Solution to the problem of humanity Through his death, Jesus has atoned for the original sin weighing down on everyone; by following Him, you can hope to find salvation, meaning, be saved from the certain prospect of hell and instead be allowed to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. saved by grace through faith in Jesus

:::::We may want to do a comparative religion analysis as well.

:::::Buddhism in a nutshell: there is suffering in the world > the root of suffering is desire > do not desire anything > be like the Buddha!!!

:::::When people become 出家人, they leave the home and pursue a Buddhist temple / monastery / 寺庙 and live there with other monastics, separated by gender. Killing causes suffering, so no killing and eating of meat. Sex is linked to sexual desire, and thus it should be abstained. But ordinary lay people may have a statue of Buddha at home to pay respects to.

:::::In both Christianity and Buddhism, there is a problem of humanity, and both Christianity and Buddhism pose their own solution to the problem of humanity. That is all. No statement of objective facts or scientific facts. It has to do with human existence, why we exist as humans, what we should do in this world, what we live for and so on. Do you have to follow the religion? No. You can find your own way, your own solution, to deal with the problems of humanity or maybe just you as you are part of humanity. Yrotarobal (talk) 12:21, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

::::::Ah yes, Maria. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:54, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

• Wikipedia isn’t the right venue to argue whether Christian beliefs are correct (or not)… but it IS the right venue to explain what those beliefs ARE. You do not have to share those beliefs, but please respect those who do. Blueboar (talk) 15:52, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

= June 23 =

The page URL, below, for a band called "No Vacation" existed until very recently, is still part of the band's description in YouTube music, and is shown in a Google search right-hand results—yet the deletion log makes it seem it went away in 2019. How can one get the page restored?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Vacation Gkbratch (talk) 02:41, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

:You could try asking the admins who deleted it. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 05:36, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

:There were two versions. I can't tell if they were related. The later one, deleted from Draft:No Vacation, can be retrieved by following the process at WP:REFUND/G13. The admin who deleted the first version appears to be no longer active, but any admin can deposit a copy in your user space. (There is a process for requesting undeletion, but in view of the complication that there were two versions, it is better to approach an admin directly. This admin writes on their user page: "On admin jobs, I specialize in undeleting.")

:The lead section seems to have been, at some time:

::"No Vacation are an American dream pop band from San Francisco, California, currently based out of Brooklyn, New York. Formed in 2015, the group currently consists of Sabrina Mai, Marisa Saunders, Nat Lee, Rob Mills, and Harrison Spencer. They are known for their nostalgic, surf-pop sound."

:(Terms like "currently" should be avoided and be replaced by something like "{{asof|lc=y|2018}}".)  ​‑‑Lambiam 06:24, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

::Before you request a refund, please check out WP:BAND (our notability guideline on bands). Given that two articles existed, and that both were deleted, I suspect that the band was not deemed notable enough to have an article on Wikipedia.

::That said… things can change, and if more independent sources now cover this band, we can certainly reassess whether we should have an article about it. Blueboar (talk) 16:21, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

:::The first version was deleted because it did not contain a credible claim of significance, which is a ground for speedy deletion. The second version was draftified (instead of outright deleted) for a lack of sources, and was deleted from Draft space one year later because it was apparently abandoned. This may have been due to a lack of reliable sources, but it may also have been the result of a lack of experience/attention/time of the editors involved.  ​‑‑Lambiam 18:45, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

::As an American band, shouldn't thst be "No Vacation is"? User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 18:13, 23 June 2025 (UTC)