Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#Skeptic's dictionary

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What is the reliabilty of Euro-Mediterranean Human Rights Monitor?

• Option 1: Generally reliable
• Option 2: Additional considerations
• Option 3: Generally unreliable
• Option 4: Deprecate

An RfCbefore can be found here. The source is [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?search=insource%3A%22euromedmonitor.org%22&title=Special%3ASearch&profile=advanced&fulltext=1&ns0=1 used 89 times]. FortunateSons (talk) 10:59, 19 March 2025 (UTC)

• Option 1 As Genabab points out (with reference to points by Thucydides411, Lf8u2, Simonm223 and Smallangryplanet) the reports by EuroMedMonitor have not been shown to be wrong. There are objections of extraordinary claims (Chess and others), but this is an extraordinary war, and Euromed has connections with people on the ground, unlike most other RS. Isoceles-sai (talk) 19:53, 11 April 2025 (UTC) — Isoceles-sai (talk · contribs) is currently under Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/{{#if:Smallangryplanet. Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 21:45, 11 April 2025 (UTC)
• :Please note that this user has been banned by ArbCom for {{tq|Canvassing and off-wiki coordination}}. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 20:48, 5 May 2025 (UTC)
• :Generally !votes are supposed to be in chronological order. Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 20:57, 11 April 2025 (UTC)
• ::@chess ah, thank you for the information. (@chess is currently accusing me of being a sockpuppet) Isoceles-sai (talk) 08:20, 12 April 2025 (UTC)
• ::: I still think you are, but I've removed the tags (except for this one, because otherwise your reply wouldn't make sense) [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard&diff=prev&oldid=1285267564] since someone else has told me to wait until the SPI thread is over. Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 17:57, 12 April 2025 (UTC)
• ::::That's nice. We wouldn't want people to think that @Chess was stalking me. Isoceles-sai (talk) 18:28, 12 April 2025 (UTC)
• :::::Since this discussion, Isoceles-sai and GeoColdWater have been banned by the Arbitration Committee.[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?diff=1287421004] Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 23:17, 26 April 2025 (UTC)
• ::::::Option 4, fully deprecating this source, looks increasingly more appropriate for this source. Iljhgtn (talk) 15:00, 28 April 2025 (UTC)
• Option 2 per my previous votes on most other advocacy groups (though I did vote to deprecate the Heritage Foundation, iirc). Like others, most of their content is gonna be op-eds or similar, and those that have hard data are going to frame that data in a way that suits their cause(s). Usable with attribution, considering they seem to be fairly high-profile, but shouldn't be put in Wikivoice unless more "neutral" GRELs back up what they're saying (in which case it'd generally be better to just cite the GREL). The training program mentioned below is questionable, but I'd need to see harder evidence of potential or confirmed disruption to drop my vote any lower. The Kip ^(contribs) 18:27, 19 March 2025 (UTC)
• Option 2 (invited by the bot) This is the answer for every source...context-specific. For wp:ver uses, expertise and objectivity with regards to the item which cited it. For wp:weight uses, generally unreliable because it's an advocacy organization. North8000 (talk) 19:42, 19 March 2025 (UTC)
• Option 3. Every single time I have seen them say something unique, which was not also available in RS, the claim was extremely unlikely. Euro-Med is a blog maintained entirely from Europe with limited-at-best access to real Middle East data or witnesses. When they make a radical claim they never provide a specific or reasonable explanation as to why they are uniquely able to report it. They never retract or correct. GordonGlottal (talk) 21:22, 19 March 2025 (UTC)
• :> a specific or reasonable explanation as to why they are uniquely able to report it
• :I suspect that it is because Israel is finding and killing the journalists in Gaza, and not allowing in outside journalists.
• :https://cpj.org/2025/04/israel-strikes-journalists-tent-in-gaza-1-killed-8-injured/ (this week)
• :https://cpj.org/2025/02/journalist-casualties-in-the-israel-gaza-conflict/ (summary)
• :Sometimes the journalists are bombed at home, killing their families as well.
• :https://www.article19.org/resources/israel-killing-of-journalists-must-prompt-independent-investigation/
• :https://rsf.org/en/israel-suffocating-journalism-gaza Isoceles-sai (talk) 20:07, 11 April 2025 (UTC)
• ::None of those sources mention Euro-Med, let alone address why they would have access to information behind their various extraordinary claims while news organisations don't. Samuelshraga (talk) 08:10, 14 April 2025 (UTC)
• Option 3 for general content, Option 4 for ARBPIA if technically feasible The EMHRM is mostly cited by news sources who themselves have a strong bias or issues with reliability, such as [https://www.presstv.ir/Detail/2025/02/28/743645/Euro-Med-Monitor-documents-shocking-torture-crimes-against-Palestinian-prisoners PressTV], [https://www.wsws.org/de/articles/2024/03/22/ozkx-m22.html WSWS], the [https://www.palestinechronicle.com/110-killed-since-gaza-ceasefire-began-euro-med-monitor-reports/ Palestine Chronicle], etc. Among the (significantly rarer) high-quality citations such as the [https://www.sueddeutsche.de/politik/gazastreifen-fotos-palaestinenser-1.6316864 Süddeutsche Zeitung] often use them with some sort of attribution, such as clarifying an unclear image origin. As such, the case for WP:USEBYOTHERS is mixed at best.

:The case for a strong bias, particularly against Israel, is clear. On personnel, with neither of those being conclusive but both being strongly indicative in my opinion, Richard Falk's past public statements about Israel and Jews and Ramy Abdu's indirect ties to Hamas.[https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/clare-short-at-risk-of-arrest-in-israel-warns-defence-minister-moshe-ya-alon-a828401.html] While we don't depreciate sources for the views and actions of their high-level staff, I consider it to be strongly indicative, in line with the consideration of Greenblatt's statements for the ADL's reliability.

:On specifics, there are repeated cases of statements and insinuations not in alignment with reliable sources, for which use should be avoided; prototypically, the case of alleged organ harvesting is most obvious: [https://euromedmonitor.org/en/article/5982 claims regarding organ harvesting], considered by the ADL to be [https://www.adl.org/resources/article/unfounded-claims-organ-harvesting-reignite-embers-decades-old-hospital-scandal reminiscent of blood libel] (GUNREL; but rather detailed in this case, therefore useful), are not supported by evidence or reliable sources. In general, they regularly do not retract statements if no later evidence is found: for example, they still [https://euromedmonitor.org/en/article/5953/International-investigation-must-be-opened-into-Israel’s-absurd-narrative-about-Al-Shifa-Medical-Complex claim] that there is no evidence of armed groups using hospitals, despite clear evidence to the contrary, as shown in our article Al-Shifa Hospital siege, which only shows a dispute about scope, not use. FortunateSons (talk) 11:29, 20 March 2025 (UTC)

::Israel has actually, in the past, taken Palestinian organs without their families' permission[https://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/dec/21/israeli-pathologists-harvested-organs]. In the current conflict, it is also a fact that certain Gaza officials have stated[https://www.newarab.com/news/israel-stealing-organs-dead-bodies-gaza-officials] that organs were missing in Palestinian corpses (whether these statements are true is unknown). EuroMed's organ claims have been mentioned in RS[https://www.euronews.com/2023/11/27/israel-stealing-organs-from-bodies-in-gaza-alleges-human-right-group]. Likewise Alleged military use of al-Shifa hospital shows there is disagreement in RS over whether Israeli claims regarding the hospital are true or false.VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 14:01, 20 March 2025 (UTC)

:::@Vice regent Regarding the organs, yes, that is largely covered in the ADL-link I provided. Dubious information being picked up by one (or a small number of) RS doesn’t make it non-dubious, and most of the coverage of those claims has been in low-quality sources for good reason. Particularly, one cannot use an article referring to the same allegation as the claim being broadly made, the issue is that it’s them, a few officials and no-one else (the New Arab source).

:::For al-Shifa: there is a dispute about scope, but no serious dispute about use, and EMHRM says {{tq|In a new statement released today, Euro-Med Human Rights Monitor called for an independent international investigation into Israel’s absurd claims that Palestinian groups were using Al-Shifa Medical Complex and other hospitals in the Gaza Strip for military purposes.}} Do you believe, based on RS, that the claim of military purposes (not: command centers) is “absurd”? FortunateSons (talk) 17:34, 20 March 2025 (UTC)

::::Re: organ theft. First, can you kindly strike out the blood libel comment? Second, its not just EMRHM. It's also Euro News[https://www.euronews.com/2023/11/27/israel-stealing-organs-from-bodies-in-gaza-alleges-human-right-group], Wafa[https://english.wafa.ps/Pages/Details/143531], New Arab[https://www.newarab.com/news/israel-stealing-organs-dead-bodies-gaza-officials], Palestine Chronicle[https://www.palestinechronicle.com/israel-stole-organs-from-bodies-of-palestinians-gaza-authorities/], Middle East Eye[https://www.middleeasteye.net/live-blog/live-blog-update/israel-hands-back-stolen-palestinian-bodies-missing-organs-report] who have covered allegations of missing organs.

::::Re: Al-Shifa. You're taking that out of context. That particular EMHRM article says "publishing three-dimensional maps of massive headquarters inside and beneath Al-Shifa Medical Complex...the Israeli army has been unable to produce any solid evidence to support its claims, said Euro-Med Monitor". It does acknowledge that "a few rifles and other armaments" were found in the hospital. VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 21:44, 20 March 2025 (UTC)

:::::@Vice regent the ADL described it as {{tq|Longstanding accusations of Israeli organ harvesting have reemerged in the aftermath of the October 7 massacres. This conspiracy theory plays on the blood libel trope, which dates to the Middle Ages and alleges that Jews use the blood of Christian children to bake their Passover bread}}, and I attributed it to them as reminiscent of blood libel, which I think is an accurate summary. Can you elaborate on why you want me to strike that?

:::::For the sources, the only clearly high-quality source is Euronews, which adds no new content, as far as I can tell. The others rely on the same two source (officials & EMHRM), have significant bias, disputed reliability, or a mix of those.

:::::Regarding Al-Shifa, allow me to ask the following question: do you believe their article (which is not retracted) to contain no significant statements that are either wrong or likely to be misunderstood by the average reader? FortunateSons (talk) 22:14, 20 March 2025 (UTC)

::::::Responded [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:FortunateSons#c-Vice_regent-20250320223300-Unhelpful_comment here]. Keep in mind EMHRM's Al-Shifa article was published on Nov 17, 2023 and evidence Israel has presented has only been made public after that, not before. Even then, evidence presented by Israel about Al-Shifa has been doubted by [https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/11/20/what-israels-video-of-hamas-tunnel-under-al-shifa-tells-us Al-Jazeera] and [https://forensic-architecture.org/investigation/assessment-israeli-material-icj-jan-2024 Forensic Architecture]. I don't find EMHRM's article "significantly wrong" when read entirely given public knowledge on Nov 17.VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 22:49, 20 March 2025 (UTC)

:::::::I understand that view, but considering the statements (again, about military use, not command centers) were (at least almost) conclusively proven wrong within the next 3 days (not even including [https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/sites/default/files/pdf/White20140929-CTCSentinel.pdf historical alleged use]), and is phrased in an inflammatory manner, it seems like a reliable source should have issued a correction at the very least, particularly when considering the arguments (made by others, not you specifically, just to be clear) that led to the reduction of the reliability for the ADL, whose errors I found to be significantly less egregious (and some of which were [https://forward.com/opinion/626749/adl-wikipedia-ban-jonathan-greenblatt/ factually incorrect]). FortunateSons (talk) 23:21, 20 March 2025 (UTC)

::{{tq|Richard Falk's past public statements about Israel and Jews}}: Richard Falk himself is Jewish, so if you're trying to suggest that he's antisemitic, you're going to have to show some very strong evidence. -Thucydides411 (talk) 22:32, 21 March 2025 (UTC)

:::In general, Jews can be antisemitic. I‘m not making a statement in my own voice, but our own article includes pretty significant accusations (not even including the dog incident). For Israel, the sections are extensive enough not to require further elaboration, right? FortunateSons (talk) 22:44, 21 March 2025 (UTC)

::::It's an extraordinary claim to call a Jewish person antisemitic, and you should only make that claim if you have very strong evidence, which you don't. This just looks like character assassination to me. -Thucydides411 (talk) 23:42, 21 March 2025 (UTC)

:::::Again, I‘m not saying he‘s antisemitic, and the claim I actually did make is factually accurate, but allow me to elaborate: a) Falk has made highly contentious statements about Israel and Jews/Jewish Orgs, b) and some of those claims have been referred to as antisemitic, covered by RS enough that they are in our article about him. Do you disagree with either of those points? FortunateSons (talk) 23:55, 21 March 2025 (UTC)

::::::This is becoming off topic. Also please be wary of bludgeoning, @FortunateSons. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 00:10, 22 March 2025 (UTC)

:::::::Respectfully, responding only to people who directly challenge different parts of my argument, as I have done here, is generally not considered bludgeoning, particularly when considering my relative share of comments (9/36 and 6/27 in the survey section), which are less than the indicative 1/3. However, I agree that we’re moving off-topic, and appreciate the reminder! FortunateSons (talk) 07:11, 22 March 2025 (UTC)

• Option 2 per The_Kip above (and my own comments in this section).VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 14:07, 20 March 2025 (UTC)
• Option 3 It is a biased blog Michael Boutboul (talk) 22:58, 20 March 2025 (UTC)
• Option 3 per finding raised by multiple editors
• False statements or WP:EXTRAORDINARY statements without strong support from high-quality, independent sources
• Israeli army systematically uses police dogs to brutally attack, rape Palestinian civilians [https://archive.is/OkJE8]
• Organ harvesting topic (debunked by BobFromBrockley see below)
• Link between the founder Ramy Abdu and a terrorist organization (see the photo in [https://ngo-monitor.org/ngos/euro-med-human-rights-monitor/]) Michael Boutboul (talk)
• :bias isn't enough to deem a source as unreliable — 🧀Cheesedealer ^!!!⚟ 08:00, 21 March 2025 (UTC)
• ::If argument given by FortunateSons are correct, IMO it is sufficient for Option 3 Michael Boutboul (talk) 11:18, 21 March 2025 (UTC)
• ::In addition to @FortunateSons arguments, EMHRM echoed a rumor (initially broadcast by Al Jazeera) claiming that Israel was training dogs to rape Palestinian detainees. [https://archive.is/OkJE8 Gaza: Israeli army systematically uses police dogs to brutally attack, rape Palestinian civilians]. The more I am looking for this site, I found significant evidence that the Euro-Mediterranean Human Rights Monitor acts as a pro-Palestinian advocacy group and has repeatedly published false and misleading statements as fact. Michael Boutboul (talk) 10:41, 22 March 2025 (UTC)

::::The dogs claim is not extraordinary, we know that trained dogs are used by Israel to torture detainees, and we know that Israelis soldiers frequently rape and sexually assault detainees, especially but not exclusively male ones. There is nothing particularly extraordinary about reporting detainee testimony that combines these two features.--Boynamedsue (talk) 06:14, 24 April 2025 (UTC)

• Option 1 No one has as of yet pointed out a pattern of falsehoods from Euro-Med HRM as determined by RS, nor has a compelling argument been made to suggest that such falsehoods are inherently linked to the way Euro-Med HRM operates. The assertion that it is only cited by highly partisan sources, and therefore unreliable, is inaccurate. It has been cited by various high quality RS, such as [https://abcnews.go.com/International/kite-festival-gaza-offers-children-rare-break-ongoing/story?id=108629524 ABC], [https://www.amnesty.org/en/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/MDE1551412022ENGLISH.pdf Amnesty International], [https://apnews.com/article/gaza-family-home-evacuation-israel-troops-f1d9838c60225a8c454e372df72ca245 AP News], [https://www.bbc.com/mundo/articles/c4nn9x23zxzo BBC], [https://edition.cnn.com/2023/12/07/middleeast/gaza-israeli-soldiers-detained-men-intl/index.html CNN], [https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/12/31/gaza-search-and-rescue-teams-forced-to-leave-their-own-fami/ The Telegraph], [https://www.dw.com/en/gaza-migrants-embarking-on-a-dangerous-journey-to-europe/a-66940196 Deutsche Welle], [https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/apr/02/gaza-palestinian-children-killed-idf-israel-war The Guardian], [https://thehill.com/homenews/ap/ap-top-headlines/ap-mass-funeral-in-gaza-draws-tears-rare-criticism-of-hamas/ The Hill], [https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/hamas-ap-turkey-istanbul-ismail-haniyeh-b2257090.html The Independent], [https://theintercept.com/2024/08/01/israel-military-drones-charity-donations-xtend/ The Intercept], [https://www.msnbc.com/opinion/msnbc-opinion/israel-target-civilians-gaza-fetterman-rcna123890 MSNBC], [https://nationalpost.com/pmn/news-pmn/mass-funeral-in-gaza-draws-tears-rare-criticism-of-hamas National Post], [https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/abandoned-babies-found-decomposing-gaza-hospital-evacuated-rcna127533 NBC News], [https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/israel-separating-families-in-gaza-taking-men-to-undisclosed-locations-in-mass-arrest-campaign-activists-say PBS], [https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/trapped-jobless-gaza-youths-look-way-out-2023-03-22/ Reuters], [https://www.scmp.com/news/world/middle-east/article/3256906/israel-gaza-war-us-vows-plough-gaza-airdrops-despite-deaths-hamas-plea-stop South China Morning Post], [https://www.smh.com.au/world/middle-east/gaza-s-children-are-calling-on-us-to-speak-up-20231105-p5eho2.html The Sydney Morning Herald], and [https://www.timesofisrael.com/everyone-is-hungry-desperate-gazans-fight-for-food-as-crisis-deepens/ Times of Israel], just to mention a few. Its reports are based on witness interviews, video and photo evidence, field investigations, and official data. They are also regularly cited by the [https://reliefweb.int/organization/euro-med-monitor UN]. WP:USEBYOTHERS is clear: {{tq|widespread citation without comment for facts is evidence of a source's reputation and reliability}}.Lf8u2 (talk) 02:54, 21 March 2025 (UTC)
• :For example : On June 27, 2024, EMHRM echoed a rumor (initially broadcast by Al Jazeera and repeated by LFI MEP Rima Hassan) claiming that Israel was training dogs to rape Palestinian detainees Michael Boutboul (talk) 13:48, 21 March 2025 (UTC)
• ::You need to provide sources for such statements. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 15:35, 21 March 2025 (UTC)
• :::Here [https://archive.is/OkJE8 Gaza: Israeli army systematically uses police dogs to brutally attack, rape Palestinian civilians]. This is just one example — FortunateSons has provided much more extensive reasoning as to why it falls short of being a reliable source by Wikipedia’s standards. Michael Boutboul (talk) 10:31, 22 March 2025 (UTC)
• ::::Do you have sources showing that this is a rumour? The use of dogs has been [https://www.972mag.com/sde-teiman-prisoners-lawyer-mahajneh/ covered] [https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20250210-israel-using-torture-sexual-assault-with-dogs-in-prisons/ by] [https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/mar/05/gazan-detainees-beaten-and-sexually-assaulted-at-israeli-detention-centres-un-report-claims other] [https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67581915 outlets] - while not all carry the sexual assault line, the Euro Med article's core claim: that released prisoners are saying that this happens, and that they are in one way or another being brutalised by dogs, is covered in other RS. Smallangryplanet (talk) 10:48, 22 March 2025 (UTC)
• :::::You are mixing up several topics, you are using sources that use EMHRM as a source to prove it is EMHRM is right, it is a circular reporting. This is exactly how a rumor is launched. Michael Boutboul (talk) 12:40, 22 March 2025 (UTC)
• ::::::I'm not sure what you mean. The Middle East Monitor piece mentions that there was prior reporting but includes new testimony. It builds on existing reporting that the EMHRM did. The other three sources don't mention it at all. Smallangryplanet (talk) 14:46, 22 March 2025 (UTC)
• :::::::None of the other media outlets (BBC, The Guardian, etc.) reported that the IDF used police dogs to rape Palestinian civilians. EMHRM has never retracted this accusation, which raises serious concerns about its reliability as a source. Michael Boutboul (talk) 16:54, 22 March 2025 (UTC)
• ::::::::If the statement hasn't been debunked or refuted then how does it affect their reliability? IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 17:04, 22 March 2025 (UTC)
• ::::::::Is there any RS showing that the accusation is incorrect? Smallangryplanet (talk) 17:10, 22 March 2025 (UTC)
• :::::::::The fact that a claim has not been refuted does not make it reliable. This is a classic argument from ignorance — assuming something is credible merely because no one has disproven it.
• :::::::::Extraordinary accusations — such as the IDF using dogs to commit sexual violence — require strong support from high-quality, independent sources (see WP:EXTRAORDINARY). If such a claim is not corroborated by major human rights organizations or reputable media, then its inclusion — and the reliability of the source making it — must be seriously questioned.
• :::::::::A source that publishes such extreme and unsupported allegations cannot meet the standards of WP:RS, particularly on contentious topics. Michael Boutboul (talk) 18:04, 22 March 2025 (UTC)
• ::::::::::That a source's reporting has not been corroborated does not "raise serious concerns about its reliability as a source."
• ::::::::::And neither is it an extrordinary claim. It's well documented in RS that the Israeli military has sexually assaulted Palestinians and that they have used dogs to attack Palestinians as well. The idea that they used dogs to sexually assault Palestinians is therefore hardly extraordinary. Additionally, as SmallAngryPlanet showed above, the RS 972mag has reported that "a Palestinian prisoner recently released from the detention camp said that he had personally witnessed [...] cases in which Israeli soldiers made dogs sexually assault prisoners."[https://www.972mag.com/sde-teiman-prisoners-lawyer-mahajneh/] IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 18:20, 22 March 2025 (UTC)
• :::::::::::Indeed, the central allegation in the one (1) piece @Boutboul is talking about is that the Israeli military uses dogs to "attack" prisoners, something that has been cited in RS going back at least a decade or more. One surprising claim in an article (sourced to named individuals, no less) does not make a source non-RS – if that were so I'm not sure which sources we'd be able to use. To use a famous example: the New York Times once ran the WP:EXTRAORDINARY claim that Iraq had or was developing WMDs, which turned out to be false on multiple fronts, but I still see them cited up and down wikipedia. Smallangryplanet (talk) 18:26, 22 March 2025 (UTC)
• ::::::::::::The comparison with The New York Times is flawed for one crucial reason: the NYT later retracted and critically reviewed its reporting on WMDs, acknowledging its failure — a key indicator of editorial accountability. By contrast, Euro-Med Monitor has never retracted, corrected, or clarified its extraordinary claim that the IDF used dogs to sexually assault Palestinian civilians.
• ::::::::::::This is not just a fringe detail — it is a serious allegation, unsupported by independent, high-quality sources, and remains uncorrected. That directly reflects on editorial standards, which are a core component of WP:RS. A source's reliability depends on editorial oversight, fact-checking, and a reputation for accuracy. Unlike the NYT, Euro-Med Monitor does not demonstrate these safeguards, and this example is symptomatic of a broader lack of editorial rigor. That’s why its use as a reliable source on contentious topics is problematic. Michael Boutboul (talk) 19:18, 22 March 2025 (UTC)
• :::::::::::::Why should EMHRM correct it when it has not been repudiated? That's why I was hoping you had found evidence to show it was incorrect. Smallangryplanet (talk) 00:41, 23 March 2025 (UTC)
• :::::::::::Just earlier in this discussion, you yourself asked for evidence that Euro-Med Monitor had made this claim — which clearly indicates that you found the assertion extraordinary enough to require verification. That alone supports the application of WP:EXTRAORDINARY.
• :::::::::::Now that the claim is confirmed, you're arguing that it is not extraordinary. That’s inconsistent. The fact remains: Claiming that a state military used dogs to sexually assault civilians is extraordinary by any reasonable editorial standard and demands strong, independent corroboration — not a single partisan source, not one anecdotal testimony. Euro-Med Monitor does not meet the reliability criteria outlined in WP:RS, and this kind of sensational, unverified allegation is exactly the type of content WP:FRINGE warns against promoting without robust sourcing. Michael Boutboul (talk) 19:08, 22 March 2025 (UTC)
• Right now, leaning toward Option 1 per the evidence of use by RS presented by @Lf8u2. I'm open to Option 2 if more evidence is presented that the source is being used detrimentally on-wiki. As with any advocacy org, it is best practice to triangulate Euro-Med's claims with what reliable news orgs are saying and treat claims outside of consensus with more skepticism. Monk of Monk Hall (talk) 14:36, 21 March 2025 (UTC)
• Option 2 As I'd say for most reputable advocacy groups we should not assume general reliability, should be careful to attribute statements, etc. However we absolutely should not be treating a reputable advocacy group as generally unreliable solely on the basis of a perceived bias. As other editors have said, WP:USEBYOTHERS is well fulfilled. Simonm223 (talk) 14:43, 21 March 2025 (UTC)
• Option 2 Agree it is biased and we should be careful and attribute statements. It seems to work above board though so I'm happy with it. NadVolum (talk) 15:52, 21 March 2025 (UTC)
• Option 2 per NadVolum ꧁Zanahary꧂ 01:21, 30 April 2025 (UTC)
• Option 2: EMHRM has an on-the-ground network of sources that provide information, which other news outlets rely on, as other editors have shown above. The only reason I'm not saying Option 1 is because all sources (even the saint New York Times) have to be considered in context. Disregarding EMHRM for the Israeli-Palestinian subject area would be absurd, given that that's precisely the area where EMHRM is strongest and where it provides novel information that other reliable sources quote. -Thucydides411 (talk) 22:42, 21 March 2025 (UTC)
• Option 1 - There is no pattern of verifiable (using other RS) falsehoods from Euro-Med as has been alleged. Nor has it been shown that there is a systemic reason – for example through the lack of rigorous editorial and investigatory standards – for these falsehoods to be produced in the first place. EuroMed is a reputable human rights organisation that works with bodies like [https://www.ohchr.org/sites/default/files/documents/hrbodies/ced/comments/general-comment1-euro-med.docx the] [https://reliefweb.int/updates?list=Euro-Mediterranean%20Human%20Rights%20Monitor%20Updates&advanced-search=%28S49218%29 UN] and [https://euromedmonitor.org/en/article/3273/Euro-Med-Monitor-Discusses-Gulf%E2%80%99s-Human-Rights-Situation-at-EU-Parliament European] [https://euromedmonitor.org/en/article/3726/Euro-Med-Monitor-Report-Inspires-EU-Parliament-Question-about-Middle-East-Prisons-Conditions parliament], is cited by other reputable human rights organisations such as Amnesty[https://www.amnesty.org/en/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/MDE1551412022ENGLISH.pdf], as well as being cited in a diverse array of top-notch RS as noted by @Lf8u2, a list to which I can also add the New York Times ([https://www.nytimes.com/live/2024/03/12/world/israel-hamas-war-gaza-news/the-israeli-military-acknowledges-mistaking-a-bike-for-a-weapon-in-a-strike-but-stands-by-the-attack?searchResultPosition=1], [https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/27/world/middleeast/gaza-israel-hamas-evacuations-strikes.html], [https://www.nytimes.com/2024/07/12/world/middleeast/israel-hostage-gaza-koslov-hamas.html?searchResultPosition=4], [https://www.nytimes.com/live/2023/10/15/world/israel-news-hamas-war-gaza?searchResultPosition=2#those-with-family-in-gaza-struggle-with-frantic-calls-and-constant-fear]).

:I'm legitimately astounded by how Euro-Med Human Rights Monitor is being described by some editors here. Blood libel, Hamas front, a blog, worthless, random opinions, constant falsehoods… what are we doing here? I did a search to see where all this might be coming from and found a "[https://ngo-monitor.org/ngos/euro-med-human-rights-monitor/ fact sheet]" about it on the first page of Google results from a group called "NGO Monitor" that contains all of these things, including the stuff about [https://ngo-monitor.org/topics/richard-falk/ Richard Falk] who is chairman of the board of trustees of EuroMed. He also happens to be an esteemed Jewish scholar, Professor Emeritus in International Law at Princeton, UPenn Bsc, Yale LLb, Harvard SJD. But he had the misfortune of being [https://www.webcitation.org/5dViuhEdA?url=http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.nsf/2ee9468747556b2d85256cf60060d2a6/0da4ba56ade85249852574190058d462!OpenDocument appointed in 2008] by the UN Human Rights Council to be the UN Special Rapporteur on human rights in Palestine, and as has been the case with everyone who has held that position – including the current person, Francesca Albanese – he was subject to a vicious smear campaign by pro-Israeli groups.

:This includes "NGO Monitor", which RS describe as a right-wing Israeli propaganda front [https://doi.org/10.1080%2F13600826.2019.1640189][https://books.google.com/books?id=LTTVDAAAQBAJ&pg=PA6][https://books.google.com/books?id=xt7YAZOioLQC&pg=PA206][https://books.google.com/books?id=LHYPnxwPnlwC&pg=RA1-PT127] whose job it is to make these kinds of "fact sheets" that unfortunately end up being used as fodder to dismiss reputable human rights NGOs like Euro-Med. They have also been accused of [https://euobserver.com/foreign/142973 spreading misinformation] and having a [https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/11/how-the-media-makes-the-israel-story/383262/3/ politically motivated agenda]. The Al-Shifa hospital and organ harvesting points are also on their "fact sheet"; in fact the first two listed in their "activities" [https://ngo-monitor.org/ngos/euro-med-human-rights-monitor/#activities section], and I can't see how this could possibly be relevant. What Euro-Med said about Al-Shifa is entirely in line with RS as we ourselves show in the article on the topic. NGO monitor's piece is an article from November 2023 when the Israeli government and military claimed it had uncovered a vast Hamas underground network under Al-Shifa Hospital. Euro-Med said that the Israeli govt had failed to provide solid evidence for this claim and called on independent bodies to investigate it. [https://euromedmonitor.org/en/article/5962/Israel-conducts-executions-in-Shifa-Hospital,-uses-its-staff-as-human-shields (link)]. The govt's claim turned out to be inaccurate as established by RS. Again, citing our article on it to suggest otherwise is strange as we currently refer to Hamas military use of the hospital as "allegations" and cite RS that say no solid proof has been provided for the claim. [https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67453105], [https://www.independent.co.uk/news/gaza-hamas-biden-hospital-israel-b2449165.html], [https://aje.io/yu4f6n?update=2492059], [https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/12/21/al-shifa-hospital-gaza-hamas-israel/], [https://observers.france24.com/en/middle-east/20231122-al-shifa-hospital-what-do-we-know-about-idf-videos-of-a-tunnel-under-the-hospital], [https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2024/01/03/hamas-gaza-israel-alshifa-tunnels/], [https://www.cnn.com/2024/01/03/politics/us-al-shifa-intelligence-assessment/index.html].

:The [https://euromedmonitor.org/en/article/5982/Int%E2%80%99l-committee-must-investigate-Israel%E2%80%99s-holding-of-dead-bodies-in-Gaza%E2%80%8B organ harvesting article] cites testimonies from doctors in Gaza who examined corpses and relayed it to the Euro-Med investigators. It then uses those allegations as the basis for calling for an investigation to verify them, as any human rights group routinely does. It also refers to reports and laws such as the Supreme Court ruling of 2019 allowing the holding of bodies – all of this is verifiable by RS. In fact, here are some sources for that from RS: [https://www.euronews.com/2023/11/27/israel-stealing-organs-from-bodies-in-gaza-alleges-human-right-group][https://www.un.org/unispal/document/auto-insert-178236/][https://www.aftonbladet.se/kultur/a/Rx1n5A/our-sons-are-plundered-of-their-organs][https://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/dec/21/israeli-pathologists-harvested-organs][https://www.haaretz.com/2005-09-26/ty-article/abu-kabir-head-only-reprimanded-for-illegal-organ-removal/0000017f-f41d-d5bd-a17f-f63f85690000][https://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/12/21/israel.organs/index.html][https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna34503294][https://www.972mag.com/i-witnessed-a-whole-system-of-deception-regarding-the-death-of-a-palestinian/][https://www-aljazeera-net.translate.goog/news/2016/2/28/%d8%a7%d8%aa%d9%87%d8%a7%d9%85%d8%a7%d8%aa-%d9%84%d8%a5%d8%b3%d8%b1%d8%a7%d8%a6%d9%8a%d9%84-%d8%a8%d8%b3%d8%b1%d9%82%d8%a9-%d8%a3%d8%b9%d8%b6%d8%a7%d8%a1-%d8%a7%d9%84%d8%b4%d9%87%d8%af%d8%a7%d8%a1?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=wapp][https://www.btselem.org/routine_founded_on_violence/20191022_hcj_greenlights_holding_palestinian_bodies_as_bargaining_chips][https://www.timesofisrael.com/high-court-state-entitled-to-hold-bodies-of-israeli-terror-suspects-for-negotiations/][https://www.jpost.com/breaking-news/article-822542] Smallangryplanet (talk) 23:07, 21 March 2025 (UTC)

::I found some of this very persuasive until we got to the organ harvesting topic, which I have read a lot about over the years. Specifically, none of the reliable sources listed at the end of the comment actually support the extraordinary claims made by Euromed, but rather mostly relate to much older scandals in which individual medical researchers used organs (of Israelis and Palestinians) for illegitimate purposes, and have no bearing on the 2020s.

::Euromed says “According to the human rights group [i.e itself], Israel has recently made it lawful to hold dead Palestinians’ bodies and steal their organs. One such decision is the 2019 Israeli Supreme Court ruling that permits the military ruler to temporarily bury the bodies in what is known as the “Numbers Cemetery”.” Compare this to the report by [https://www.btselem.org/routine_founded_on_violence/20191022_hcj_greenlights_holding_palestinian_bodies_as_bargaining_chips B’Tselem] (a partisan but very reliable human rights organisation) or [https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/supreme-court-allows-israel-withhold-bodies-palestinians Middle East Eye] (an anti-Israel weakly reliable source), which report the Supreme Court judgement accurately, with no mention of “organs”. BobFromBrockley (talk) 08:31, 24 March 2025 (UTC)

• Option 2 per Simonm223's explanation of WP:USEBYOTHERS. It is reliable for Statements of fact (e.g. "Juan purchased a coal-powered car yesterday"); statements of analysis (e.g. "Juan's purchase of a coal-powered car contributed to climate change") and statements of opinion (e.g. "Juan should never have purchased a coal-powered car") may be problematic and should either not be sourced from it or should be used with attribution. Chetsford (talk) 21:54, 22 March 2025 (UTC)
• Option 2. Attribution should always be considered, extreme caution should be taken in verifying information, and use of the source must not be undue. 🌙Eclipse (she/they/all neos • talk • edits) 22:28, 22 March 2025 (UTC)
• Option 3 for everything related to the I/P conflict. See the discussion for an example of content unsupported by reliable sources. They exhibit heavy bias, their founder and chairman used to lobby for Hamas [https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/clare-short-at-risk-of-arrest-in-israel-warns-defence-minister-moshe-ya-alon-a828401.html] and was elated after October 7 attacks). Option 2 for everything else. If their reports are sometimes used by reliable sources, we can quote those. I don't think we should ever use information that appears only in Euromed reports. Alaexis_¿question? 08:11, 23 March 2025 (UTC)
• :As far as I can see, this link does not lead to anything linking EuroMed to Hamas. Did you intend to post a different link? BobFromBrockley (talk) 09:29, 24 March 2025 (UTC)
• ::See here [https://ngo-monitor.org/ngos/euro-med-human-rights-monitor/]for example Michael Boutboul (talk) 16:16, 25 March 2025 (UTC)
• :::NGO Monitor is not a reliable source and nor on this topic is Israel. What is the evidence of any connection to Hamas, apart from appearing on a 2013 Israeli list? BobFromBrockley (talk) 07:22, 26 March 2025 (UTC)
• ::::The picture where you can see the founder of EMHRM with Ismael Hanyeh, former Hamas leader. This is not sufficient? Otherwise do you accept the site Conspiracy Watch as a reliable source? Michael Boutboul (talk) 08:03, 26 March 2025 (UTC)
• :::::How does this picture link EMHRM with Hamas? If you click through to the source of the image it says it's from a [https://www.facebook.com/DrArafatShoukri/photos/t.100053795191625/356066831115475/?type=3 delegation] visiting Gaza. At the time Haniyeh was arguably the Prime Minister of the Palestinian National Authority, so there's plenty of legitimate reasons for international figures to meet with him. It seems like WP:SYNTH to suggest that this picture alone is evidence of a COI between the EMHRM and Hamas. Smallangryplanet (talk) 11:37, 26 March 2025 (UTC)
• ::::::It is clear that working in Gaza requires some level of interaction with Hamas, but not to this extent. Other leaders of respected NGOs such as Médecins Sans Frontières, Save the Children, Oxfam, and CARE have never had any public contact with Ismail Haniyeh.
• ::::::Unlike major humanitarian NGOs, Euro-Med Monitor does not have the same level of international recognition, transparency, or external oversight. Such public proximity to a political leader of Hamas—an organization designated as terrorist by the United States, the European Union, the United Kingdom, Canada, Australia, Japan, New Zealand, Egypt, and Paraguay—can be perceived as political alignment or, at the very least, a serious breach of the fundamental principles of neutrality and reliability to be used on Wikipedia. Michael Boutboul (talk) 13:26, 26 March 2025 (UTC)
• :::::::The terrorist designation is a non-sequitur. How is appearing in a photo with a leader of Gaza's civil government somehow worse than the fact that the vast majority of Israeli journalists served in the IDF? Barak Ravid quit his military position only months before beginning work at Axios. Journalists are in pictures with political leaders all the time, it does not remotely suggest a conflict of interest. Monk of Monk Hall (talk) 13:52, 26 March 2025 (UTC)
• :::::::I did some digging and found [https://web.archive.org/web/20110918111933/http://thecepr.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=164:delegation-to-gaza-july-2011&catid=15:delegations&Itemid=40 this summary] of the delegation's activity. They also met with Save the Children (!) and the United Nations (and several other UN agencies). It sounds like Haniyeh gave a speech and held a discussion about the situation in the Gaza at the time. These are perfectly ordinary things for a group of NGO leaders to do, and does not suggest anything untoward. At any rate, we're here to discuss if this source should be considered reliable, and I can't think of any other source we deprecate solely because the person who founded it met with a person one time. (If that alone is disqualifying, it is time to disqualify the vast majority of reliable sources!) Smallangryplanet (talk) 14:05, 26 March 2025 (UTC)
• ::@Bobfrombrockley, the link I've posted establishes the connection between the founder and chairman of EMHRM and Hamas. He was a senior leader in an organisation described by The Independent as {{tquote|a Belgian non-profit organisation that lobbies on behalf of the Hamas-led Gaza Government}}. I don't know whether EMHRM are in any way connected to Hamas and I didn't claim it. For me it's just one more indication of their extreme bias. Alaexis_¿question? 22:25, 26 March 2025 (UTC)
• :::@Alaexis that article does not {{tq|establish[es] the connection between the founder and chairman of EMHRM and Hamas}}. Shin Bet makes a claim that there is a connection between the two, but the organisation says it plans to take legal action to show that it is an independent organisation. The Independent only provides Israeli intelligence agency sourcing for this claim, which as you might imagine is hardly WP:DUE for allegations of this nature. (Hamas is a proscribed organisation in the UK, so if Shin Bet's claims were true, Clare Short could in theory be at risk of legal consequences in the UK, let alone Israel.) Not only that but Ramy himself is not mentioned in the article. Did you mean to send a different link? (We can also talk about how NGOs work with agencies and governments on the ground – even the UK government's proscribed organisation laws include [https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/operating-within-counter-terrorism-legislation/for-information-note-operating-within-counter-terrorism-legislation#proscription legal comments] suggesting that 'genuinely benign' meetings may be allowed.) Smallangryplanet (talk) 10:09, 9 April 2025 (UTC)
• ::::I don't think you're interpreting the text of the article correctly. It says "Moshe Ya’alon, former IDF chief of staff, outlawed the Council for European Palestinian Relations (CEPR) – a Belgian non-profit organisation that lobbies on behalf of the Hamas-led Gaza Government – using emergency defence regulations." The part between dashes is not attributed to Moshe Yaalon, it's the author of the article explaining what CEPR is. Alaexis_¿question? 18:32, 9 April 2025 (UTC)
• :::::In that case I'm not sure how we can possibly come to any conclusions - let alone deprecate a source - because of an unsourced and unverified comment! Smallangryplanet (talk) 18:55, 9 April 2025 (UTC)
• Option 3 There is no way to restore NPOV with this steady push to deprecate center-right/right sources and keep far-left, hyper-politicized sources like Euro-Med HRM. Also: these discussions should seek to draw in editors who have not dominated the I/P space. Allthemilescombined1 (talk) 22:02, 23 March 2025 (UTC)

• Option 1 per Thucydides411, Lf8u2, Simonm223 and Smallangryplanet. It's cited by the following (among others):
  
  https://abcnews.go.com/International/kite-festival-gaza-offers-children-rare-break-ongoing/story?id=108629524
  
  https://apnews.com/article/gaza-family-home-evacuation-israel-troops-f1d9838c60225a8c454e372df72ca245
  
  https://www.bbc.com/mundo/articles/c4nn9x23zxzo
  
  https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/27/world/middleeast/gaza-israel-hamas-evacuations-strikes.html
  
  https://www.nytimes.com/2024/07/12/world/middleeast/israel-hostage-gaza-koslov-hamas.html?searchResultPosition=4
  
  https://www.nytimes.com/live/2023/10/15/world/israel-news-hamas-war-gaza?searchResultPosition=2#those-with-family-in-gaza-struggle-with-frantic-calls-and-constant-fear
  
  https://www.nytimes.com/live/2024/03/12/world/israel-hamas-war-gaza-news/the-israeli-military-acknowledges-mistaking-a-bike-for-a-weapon-in-a-strike-but-stands-by-the-attack?searchResultPosition=1
  
  https://edition.cnn.com/2023/12/07/middleeast/gaza-israeli-soldiers-detained-men-intl/index.html
  
  https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/apr/02/gaza-palestinian-children-killed-idf-israel-war
  
  https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/trapped-jobless-gaza-youths-look-way-out-2023-03-22/
  
  Furthermore, they also work with the UN and the EU parliament and are cited by Amnesty International:
  
  https://www.amnesty.org/en/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/MDE1551412022ENGLISH.pdf
  
  https://reliefweb.int/organization/euro-med-monitor
  
  https://www.ohchr.org/sites/default/files/documents/hrbodies/ced/comments/general-comment1-euro-med.docx
  
  https://reliefweb.int/updates?list=Euro-Mediterranean%20Human%20Rights%20Monitor%20Updates&advanced-search=%28S49218%29
  
  https://euromedmonitor.org/en/article/3273/Euro-Med-Monitor-Discusses-Gulf%E2%80%99s-Human-Rights-Situation-at-EU-Parliament
  
  https://euromedmonitor.org/en/article/3726/Euro-Med-Monitor-Report-Inspires-EU-Parliament-Question-about-Middle-East-Prisons-Conditions
  
  Their extensive use and citations means they are a RS and no one has shown or linked any point where they were wrong about something or anything that would indicate that they are unreliable. Just because they are critcial of Israel where there is evidence Israel has committed abuses, doesn't mean they should be listed as unreliable. Genabab (talk) 23:32, 23 March 2025 (UTC)

::ADL is cited more frequently than EMHRM, but it is not considered a reliable source on Wikipedia. According to Wikipedia policy, citation frequency does not equate to reliability. Michael Boutboul (talk) 16:21, 25 March 2025 (UTC)

::I'm curious how you can square Option 1 for an advocacy group, when [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Reliable%20sources/Noticeboard&diff=prev&oldid=1248262682 you've previously said] option 3 for a WP:NEWSORG solely because of bias. Samuelshraga (talk) 08:57, 14 April 2025 (UTC)

:::@Samuelshraga Aplogies for the late reply, I typically forget to check replies unless pinged, but the reason is mainly because:

:::1. Its unclear what makes Euro-Med unreliable

:::2. Its unclear when they reported something that was false

:::3. Very reputable orgs cite them like AI, and they work together with the UN and the EU which suggests legitimacy. The same cannot be said for the JC Genabab (talk) 10:25, 6 May 2025 (UTC)

::::@Genabab, I think the organ theft claim is pretty clearly false, and the total lack of any hint of {{tq|editorial control, a reputation for fact-checking, and the level of independence from the topic the source is covering}} (just the things we're supposed to look for when evaluating a Wikipedia:PARTISAN source) are a case for unreliability - but that aside, I was just curious how you squared a GUNREL !vote where the only argument you cited was bias, with a GREL vote for a self-evidently biased source.

::::I also don't think that working with the UN or MEPs confers a lot of legitimacy on the best of days, but given that the MEP in question is Marc Tarabella (one of the Qatargate ones), I think it might do the opposite. Samuelshraga (talk) 10:53, 6 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::Euro-Med reports on Israeli human rights abuses, just as they do for other countries too. So I don't think bias applies here. As others have said, human rights group's like reporting on violations they gather from their teams, and then call for investigations on that basis. I don't think anyone's demonstrated that Euro-Med is biased or unreliable or actively lies or anything like that. You mention reports on organ harvesting but other sources have also reported this (As noted here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#c-Vice_regent-20250320214400-FortunateSons-20250320173400), so I don't agree that it is "very clearly false" at all.

:::::JC on the other hand is a different story. There we saw that they deliberately falsified reporting to push a narrative that was in favor of Israel, as seen in the linked sources below. Hence why I voted against JC. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/sep/14/crisis-at-jewish-chronicle-as-stories-are-withdrawn https://www.nytimes.com/2024/09/30/world/europe/jewish-chronicle-uk-fabricated-stories-owner.html Genabab (talk) 19:58, 6 May 2025 (UTC)

::::::If you don't think that Euro-Med has bias, I don't think we are capable of conducting a conversation. The fact that it does not confine its reportage solely to Israel/Palestine is a non sequitur of an explanation for this view. And by the way, there are GREL-listed outlets on RSP who have notes that there is a consensus that they are a biased source. I strongly believe bias is not a problem for reliability, I only noted it here because of the inconsistency in your arguments.

::::::Secondly, on organ theft. Re: your reference to VR's "evidence" on this, I will note that I don't think that contains any reference to RS making a claim of organ theft, and are mostly unreliable sources attributing that claim to variously the Gazan authorities (a certain Hamas if I recall) and Euro-Med, so the argument is pretty circular. More importantly, the organ theft claim I'm referring to is not the bog standard "Israelis steal organs" blood libel, it's the claim by Euro-Med that [https://euromedmonitor.org/en/article/5982/Int%E2%80%99l-committee-must-investigate-Israel%E2%80%99s-holding-of-dead-bodies-in-Gaza%E2%80%8B the Israeli supreme court legalised organ theft]. That's the demonstrably false and extraordinary claim that I find most concerning.

::::::As for the JC, I'm not here to relitigate that RfC, but if you had written there that your reasoning was that they had published false stories, we wouldn't be having this conversation. You exclusively cited bias. Still, I don't think we're getting anywhere here so I don't mind leaving it at that. Samuelshraga (talk) 20:46, 6 May 2025 (UTC) edited Samuelshraga (talk) 12:13, 9 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::::Everyone has bias in the general sense. Be that bias like labelling sourced reporting as "blood libel". What matters more is the question of whether the natural bias turns the source from reliable to unreliable. My primary concern is if they publish false stories as determined to be so by RS. No one has brought up an instance of that for Euro-Med. The only example that came close was on the legalisation claim. Which was attributed in the link to "Israeli doctor Meira Weiss [in] her book Over Their Dead Bodies" and "Yehuda Hess, the former director of Israel’s Abu Kabir Institute of Forensic Medicine" which demonstrates that it is not "demonstrably false".

:::::::Furthermore, I question your scepticism towards VR's sources. If a bunch of paramedics in Gaza are saying "Its possible that Israel did organ theft" then that does indeed bolster Euro-Meds claim. Alternatively if a source works for the government in Gaza that does not mean everything they say can immediately be assumed to be false. After all WHO (or at least I think it was WHO) judges the Hamas government's estimates of casualties to be reliable, so there's precedence here.

:::::::And since we're talking about double standards, I did a check for your votes and saw you voted option 1 for The Jerusalem Post (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_459#c-Samuelshraga-20241120070200-Slatersteven-20241028135900). JP has repeatedly published false stories like about beheaded babies, still published now (https://www.jpost.com/breaking-news/article-767951). This does show a "total lack of any hint of editorial control, a reputation for fact-checking, and the level of independence from the topic the source is covering". If a source that claimed to have verified photos of beheaded babies can get a "Reliable" vote from you, I'm not sure what standard you're using to justify "Generally Unreliable" here or anywhere else. Genabab (talk) 15:52, 9 May 2025 (UTC)

::::::::First of all, the claim that the Israeli supreme court recently legalised organ theft is not attributed to Euro-Med in the source I linked to, to either Meira Weiss or Yehuda Hess. A claim about the historic unlawful use of organs is attributed to them, not the claim to which I clearly referred.

::::::::Secondly, VR's sources:

::::::::* [https://www.euronews.com/2023/11/27/israel-stealing-organs-from-bodies-in-gaza-alleges-human-right-group the first] attributes the claim to Euro-Med, meaning that your use of it in this case is circular.

::::::::* [https://english.wafa.ps/Pages/Details/143531 The second] doesn't actually make the claim (it talks about medical teams having suspicions).

::::::::* [https://www.newarab.com/news/israel-stealing-organs-dead-bodies-gaza-officials The third] attributes the claim to variously: "local authorities in Gaza" (read: Hamas), the Quds News Network (read: Hamas) and - Euro-Med.

::::::::* [https://www.palestinechronicle.com/israel-stole-organs-from-bodies-of-palestinians-gaza-authorities/ The fourth] cited "the government media office in Gaza" (pretty sure I know who that is).

::::::::* [https://www.middleeasteye.net/live-blog/live-blog-update/israel-hands-back-stolen-palestinian-bodies-missing-organs-report The fifth] is a live news update feed and attributes the claim to the second source anyway.

::::::::I don't know that any of the linked outlets are reliable. Some, like Palestine Chronicle, I would suspect are definitely not. I see no completed RfCs or listings for any of them. But even if they were all green - these outlets don't make the claim that you're saying they do, which itself is not the one that I referenced in the first place. A source not being reliable does not mean everything they say is false, that's ludicrous. A source being unreliable means we can't rely on it to be true.

::::::::Re: my !vote on the Jerusalem Post, the point that you made was in fact made by the proposer of that RfC I was !voting in. I stated in my !vote my agreement with what Chess had written, which included a response to that point. In fact the discussion was explicitly closed as an endorsement of Chess' position. In any case, The Jerusalem Post clearly shows editorial practices like issuing retractions and corrections, has named writers and editors, and separating commentary from news. These are important to my evaluation of what is a reliable source, so I'm not sure what double standard you're pointing to, other than you disagree with me on that RfC and you disagree with me here. Samuelshraga (talk) 21:08, 10 May 2025 (UTC)

• Option 2 per the sources mentioned by Lf8u2 and Smallangryplanet, but acknowledging it as an advocacy group (so not option 1), Huldra (talk) 22:32, 27 March 2025 (UTC)

• Option 2 as my usual response that as policy is WP:CONTEXTMATTERS, it depends on the specific edit proposed and the specific cite, there is no 'this source is always right' or 'this source is always wrong'. I add the obvious limit of this source does not have much WP:WEIGHT of coverage, so other sources are more likely useful. And this source is an advocacy group and like all such may be usable as RS of the WP:BIASED kind as a POV but not as objective fact -- use in-text attribution on anything from here, not WP:WIKIVOICE. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 22:59, 3 April 2025 (UTC)

• Option 2, which Mark outlined the reasoning for above nicely. Regardless of how they describe themselves, they're essentially an advocacy organization and should not be cited without in-text attribution. I do not think other editors have outlined an actual pattern of falsehoods or deception, however, and other editors have noted their use among other RS. ThadeusOfNazereth(he/him)^{Talk to Me!} 16:33, 9 April 2025 (UTC)

• Option 3. Euro-Med is an extremely partisan advocacy group in the I/P space. This would put it in the same categroy as CAMERA, NGO Monitor and others. Both pro-Palestinian and pro-Israeli NGOs of this type easily fulfil WP:USEBYOTHERS in that they are frequently cited in RS, typically by RS with a bias towards "their" side. However Wikipedia should never take the claims made by such groups and put them into its own voice, and should wait for those claims to be filtered through RS before repeating them with attribution. Given that this source makes extraordinary claims for which it seems to be the only source (e.g. [https://euromedmonitor.org/en/article/5982/Int%E2%80%99l-committee-must-investigate-Israel%E2%80%99s-holding-of-dead-bodies-in-Gaza%E2%80%8B claiming that Israel recently legalised organ theft from Palestinians]), and that no one seems to have pointed to any clear editorial processes or history of retraction, I am shocked that anyone is advocating Option 1. Samuelshraga (talk) 07:04, 10 April 2025 (UTC)

• Option 4, or Option 3, first choice would be Option 4, but Option 3 would be a decent minimum place to start if Option 4 does not have clear consensus. I agree with the reasoning for why provided by FortunateSons. This source has no proximity to reliability. Iljhgtn (talk) 21:44, 10 April 2025 (UTC)

::I'd just point out that this !vote has no argument and lacks any basis in out policies.--Boynamedsue (talk) 06:01, 24 April 2025 (UTC)

:::@Iljhgtn said that they agree with the reasoning provided by FortunateSons above. It seems quite aggressive to go sniping at !votes for the crime of directing people to the argument that swayed them, rather than restating it. Not to mention that it's a recipe for bloat and bludgeoning if people have to repeat the same argument every time. Samuelshraga (talk) 09:29, 24 April 2025 (UTC)

::::Agreed. @Boynamedsue should strikethrough their disrespectful comment. Iljhgtn (talk) 13:48, 24 April 2025 (UTC)

• Option 1, as Lf8u2, Genabab, and Smallangryplanet stated, Euro Med is used by many reputable sources and works with many international bodies & human rights group like Amnesty International and the United Nations. No evidence has actually been presented to prove they spew false information, they're simply gathering testimonies of abuse and advocate for investigations (in many countries such as Syria, Algeria, Tunisia, Bahrain, etc., not just Israel). I would believe anything other than Option 1 sets a bad precedent. Geo (talk) 23:53, 10 April 2025 (UTC)
• :Please note that this user has been banned by ArbCom for {{tq|Canvassing and off-wiki coordination}} FortunateSons (talk) 11:04, 27 April 2025 (UTC)
• Option 3. Israel training police dogs to rape Palestinians is a bizarre and obvious conspiracy theory. I am surprised that editors here are defending it as truth. Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 07:44, 11 April 2025 (UTC)
• :Just because you personally don't believe a source, that doesn't make it unreliable. (Argument from incredulity)
• :This is also hardly an extraordinary claim. Confer this [https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kPE6vbKix6A&pp=0gcJCR0AztywvtLA Oct 2024 Al Jazeera documentary] at time 1:04:20 where the allegation is made by a Fadi Bakr of Gaza, who [https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.7276854 per the CBC] was "a law graduate from the University of Palestine, was searching for food for his wife and kids in Khan Younis on Jan. 5 when he was caught in the crossfires of fighting between Hamas militants and the IDF. He was shot and took refuge in a nearby building, [...] Then, he was arrested."
• :This allegation/testimony was also reported by +972 Magazine: "Multiple media outlets, including CNN and the New York Times, have reported on instances of rape and sexual assault at Sde Teiman. In a video circulating on social media earlier this week, a Palestinian prisoner recently released from the detention camp said that he had personally witnessed multiple rapes, and cases in which Israeli soldiers made dogs sexually assault prisoners."[https://www.972mag.com/sde-teiman-prisoners-lawyer-mahajneh/?utm_source=972+Magazine+Newsletter] IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 11:42, 11 April 2025 (UTC)
• ::Fadi Bakr of Gaza is literally the only source for that claim. He's the same person cited by Euro-Med Monitor and all of the other sources.
• ::Going from a single prisoner saying he {{xt|witnessed individual Israeli soldiers using dogs to sexually assault Palestinians}} to {{!xt|Gaza: Israeli army systematically uses police dogs to brutally attack, rape Palestinian civilians}} is the problem with that source. Most sources do not take a single individual's testimony and use their own voice to say the Zionists are training rape dogs to abuse Palestinians. Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 18:49, 12 April 2025 (UTC)
• :::You apparently haven't read the source, which says "Euro-Med Monitor received horrific testimonies from recently released detainees confirming the brutal and inhumane use of Israeli police dogs to rape prisoners and detainees". Fadi Saif al-Din Bakr is the only named witness. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 19:28, 12 April 2025 (UTC)
• ::::{{re|IOHANNVSVERVS}} I did read that. No other news outlet has been able to interview someone other than Fadi Bakr, and Euro-Med Monitor doesn't provide any other testimony from other detainees. The closest is this:
• ::::{{tqb|Thirty-six-year-old Hassan Abu Raida, another released detainee, stated: “They moved me and the other detainees to a prison. They threw us to the ground and made the dogs urinate on us [as we lay there]. In addition, one of the soldiers struck my right knee with an iron pipe, and I am still recovering from that injury.”}}
• ::::That's not rape. It's wrong and is prisoner abuse, but I think Euro-Med Monitor is stretching the definition of "rape" (which usually requires penetration) here to fit their POV instead of presenting the facts accurately, because implying penetration by dogs is much more scandalous than urination by dogs. Similar to how Israeli civilians being mutilated was exaggerated into beheaded babies by ZAKA, which also isn't reliable. Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 22:17, 12 April 2025 (UTC)
• :::::@Chess you are misrepresenting the source. This is now the second time I have seen you do this in a short period of time, as you did with [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Nuseirat_rescue_and_massacre#c-Smallangryplanet-20250323220500-Chess-20250321232800 the Bloomberg article here]. This assertion was initially made by Boutboul, who also claimed that Euro-Med Monitor reported Israel was "systematically" training dogs to rape Palestinians. Euro-Med Monitor has not stated anywhere that Israel is systematically training or using police dogs to rape Palestinians. The [https://euromedmonitor.org/en/article/6383/Gaza:-Israeli-army-systematically-uses-police-dogs-to-brutally-attack-Palestinian-civilians,-with-at-least-one-reported-rape actual report] explicitly states that Israel is systematically using dogs to attack Palestinian civilians—not to rape—and bases this on cited testimonies, with the specification of "at least one reported rape". Not systematic rape by dogs, not training dogs to rape, but at least one reported case of rape, and then they cite the testimony for that which other RS have also cited as @IOHANNVSVERVS and myself have noted.
• :::::{{tq|Fadi Bakr of Gaza is literally the only source for that claim}} - no he is not. [https://www.newarab.com/analysis/new-palestinian-testimonies-reveal-horrors-israels-prisons Here is another testimony] saying he witnessed the use of dogs to rape prisoners. Not only that, but EMHRM does not treat this claim as verified but calls for an investigation.
• :::::Criticising a human rights organisation for documenting and reporting victim testimony of alleged abuses—and for urging further investigation—is certainly an interesting position to hold. Smallangryplanet (talk) 13:37, 15 April 2025 (UTC)
• ::::::“Gaza: Israeli army systematically uses police dogs to brutally attack, rape Palestinian civilians”: I didn’t make it up — that’s the actual title of the article. And I completely agree with you that it’s absurd, which is precisely why this source isn’t reliable. Michael Boutboul (talk) 14:34, 15 April 2025 (UTC)
• :::::::That's not what the article says, though. WP:HEADLINES makes it clear we should look at what the body of the source text says. {{tq|Palestinian Territory – The Israeli military is using police dogs to systematically attack Palestinian civilians during military operations in the Gaza Strip. The dogs are also used to intimidate, beat, and sexually assault prisoners and detainees in Israeli detention facilities.}} (Emphasis mine.) I do not think we should deprecate or downgrade a source because of a poorly deployed comma splice in a headline on a single article. Smallangryplanet (talk) 14:50, 15 April 2025 (UTC)
• ::::::::That's a big move of the goalposts. You said "not stated anywhere", now it's "stated in the headline, but that doesn't count". Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 18:30, 15 April 2025 (UTC)
• :::::::::Goalposts remain firmly in place, because the headline has [https://euromedmonitor.org/en/article/6383/Gaza:-Israeli-army-systematically-uses-police-dogs-to-brutally-attack-Palestinian-civilians,-with-at-least-one-reported-rape been updated], to a version which reads {{tq|Gaza: Israeli army systematically uses police dogs to brutally attack Palestinian civilians, with at least one reported rape}}. The [https://archive.is/OkJE8 archival version] of the piece that @Boutboul is citing was taken on 28 Jun 2024 05:38:44 UTC. The updated version was itself first archived [https://web.archive.org/web/20240628143044/https://euromedmonitor.org/en/article/6383/Gaza:-Israeli-army-systematically-uses-police-dogs-to-brutally-attack-Palestinian-civilians,-with-at-least-one-reported-rape roughly 9 hours later], at 28 Jun 2024 14:30:44 UTC. So not only did they have accurate content in the body from the get-go, but they very quickly moved to update to a more precise headline that same day. The updated version [https://euromedmonitor.org/en/article/6383/Gaza:-Israeli-army-systematically-uses-police-dogs-to-brutally-attack-Palestinian-civilians,-with-at-least-one-reported-rape is still live to this day]. Smallangryplanet (talk) 19:21, 15 April 2025 (UTC)
• ::::::::::Pick one argument. At the start of this discussion, you said {{tq|Why should EMHRM correct it when it has not been repudiated? That's why I was hoping you had found evidence to show it was incorrect.}} Now you're saying that it has been repudiated, but EMHRM corrected it.
• ::::::::::So, what factual position are you currently endorsing?
• ::::::::::# Israel systemically uses dogs to rape Palestinians
• ::::::::::# Israel has raped one person with a dog
• ::::::::::# One detainee said they saw another detainee be raped by a dog, but it's unconfirmed whether that is true
• ::::::::::I think 3. is a correct assessment of the situation. EMHRM said 1. initially, then silently changed it to 2 without a public correction. The vast majority of sources that do cover the alleged canine molestations go with option 3: quoting Fadi Bakr but without endorsing his claims as true. However, EMHRM says they "confirmed" this based on one person's uncorroborated testimony. Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 04:29, 16 April 2025 (UTC)
• :::::::::::Repudiation is "the act of refusing to accept something or someone as true, good, or reasonable". There has been no repudiation here, just a routine editorial improvement of a headline to better align it with the content of the article. The original headline could have been read in 2 different ways and now it is clearer. Isoceles-sai (talk) 08:21, 16 April 2025 (UTC)
• :::::::::::Agree with @Isoceles-sai on repudiation. I am not endorsing any factual position, other than that I am correctly interpreting an old initial headline. None of the three options you listed, @Chess, are correct interpretations of the headline. The original title does not make the claim that dogs are being trained to systematically rape Palestinians. They put {{tq|attack, rape}}. If they had been making the claim that position (1) is correct, then they would have said "attack and rape." In any case, it was quickly clarified and, again, WP:HEADLINES. The content of the article reports what EMHRM has been told ({{tq|testimonies...confirming...}} is a standard formulation used by plenty of RS for all manner of things) and then they call for an investigation, which is perfectly reasonable. Smallangryplanet (talk) 10:01, 16 April 2025 (UTC)
• ::::::https://archive.is/OkJE8 Michael Boutboul (talk) 14:44, 15 April 2025 (UTC)
• Option 2 - Advocacy. Can be used with in text attribution. Blueboar (talk) 20:02, 11 April 2025 (UTC)
• Option 2 - should be attributed, but its well cited and their reports are cited by reliable sources. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 01:28, 14 April 2025 (UTC)
• :I don't see what the fuss is about with PIA topic area? If the only reason we are knitpicking supposed errors {{small|(that some of their reports weren't reposted by other groups)}} is because a human rights org is saying there are human rights violations in Gaza, some of these votes should be considered in that context. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 01:30, 14 April 2025 (UTC)
• Option 1 or if necessary Option 2 - In practice, labeling a source as 'advocacy' is too often misused to selectively cast doubt on that source. The line between advocacy and journalism is much, much too blurry to be a convenient pass/fail test for Wikipedia editors. As for the "police dog" issue, the [https://archive.is/OkJE8 article itself] is somewhat ambiguous about what exactly happened, because the testimony it discusses is somewhat ambiguous. Per the source Israeli attack dogs were used against Palestinian civilians. This doesn't qualify as an extraordinary claim. Grayfell (talk) 20:07, 14 April 2025 (UTC)
• :What about [https://euromedmonitor.org/en/article/5982/Int%E2%80%99l-committee-must-investigate-Israel%E2%80%99s-holding-of-dead-bodies-in-Gaza%E2%80%8B the claim that the Israeli supreme court legalised organ theft from Palestinians]? Samuelshraga (talk) 08:28, 16 April 2025 (UTC)
• Option 2. Highly partisan advocacy group that we should not use without attribution. Use by RSs with attribution suggests it is a source we can cite, but at least one egregious example of highly inaccurate reporting on an inflammatory topic (organ traffic, where they eg made a false claim about an Israeli court decision, documented above) indicates we should not cite it without extreme care and caveats. BobFromBrockley (talk) 06:50, 17 April 2025 (UTC)
• Option 3 or at least Option 2, since they regularly published unverified reports (i.e. [https://euromedmonitor.org/en/article/5982/Int%E2%80%99l-committee-must-investigate-Israel%E2%80%99s-holding-of-dead-bodies-in-Gaza%E2%80%8B 1]) as news reports. See 2009 Aftonbladet Israel controversy. At the very least, we need a strong distinction between news and opinion, as most articles on the site fall squarely into the latter. --FeldBum (talk) 17:25, 22 April 2025 (UTC)
• Option 2 The source is largely reliable but relies heavily on the testimony of detainees and residents of Gaza which cannot, at this minute, be verified for obvious reasons. This means that we should often be careful to attribute both to EuroMed and to the source of the testimony. (i.e. {{tq|EuroMedMonitor has reported that released detainees describe...}}). It is also occasionally careless with wording, it did actually state in a single sentence that the Israeli supreme court had made organ-harvesting legal, even though it was clear from the text of the report in which this claim appears that this was not correct. But this one error/false claim is not enough to allow us to discard the wealth of information the source brings given its access to Gaza. Far worse errors have been made by mainstream sources we accept as reliable, for example uncorrected parroting of the 40 beheaded babies claim.Boynamedsue (talk) 06:25, 24 April 2025 (UTC)
• Option 2, all these interested parties have an axe to grind and should be looked at critically but I've not seen anything particularly bad compared to all the Israeli ones, and I get the feeling it is more reliable and does more fact checking than the Telegraph which just spews out misinformation, how that gets to be generally reliable I don't know. NadVolum (talk) 10:48, 30 April 2025 (UTC) I'd already !voted a while ago and completely forgot! -this RfC has been around so long. At least it looks like I've been consistent onoption 2. NadVolum (talk) 16:05, 30 April 2025 (UTC)
• Option 1 per WP:USEBYOTHERS. ~ El D. (talk to me) 20:26, 5 May 2025 (UTC)
• :"{{tq|If outside citation is the main indicator of reliability, particular care should be taken to adhere to other guidelines and policies, and to not unduly represent contentious or minority claims.}}"
• :WP:USEBYOTHERS does not support an Option 1 !vote, but could well support an Option 2 or Option 3. Iljhgtn (talk) 23:41, 6 May 2025 (UTC)
• Option 3 due to extreme bias (its founder's closeness with Hamas leadership and its outright refusal to report on Palestinian war crimes against Israelis despite styling itself as a human rights monitor. Its refusal to self-correct, its promotion of the systemic canine rape conspiracy theory based on one unverified testimony where one incident was alleged and its canvassing operation on Wikipedia are also hallmarks of an GUNREL source. I would say Option 2 outside of Israel-Palestine, because the problems, besides their canvassing operation, are confined to Israel-Palestine affairs and not other theatres of its work. However, they are an advocacy group and considering their sloppy coverage of Israel-Palestine and their canvassing operation, more reputable human rights groups (like Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International) are preferable. Closetside (talk) 15:03, 8 May 2025 (UTC)
• :A further problem is that it [https://euromedmonitor.org/en/article/6708/Infographic:-577-days-of-genocide-in-Gaza| claims] that only 6,204 non-civilians (i.e. militants) were killed during the war. However, a Hamas official [https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/in-first-acknowledgement-of-significant-losses-hamas-official-says-some-6000-operatives-killed-in-gaza-fighting/| acknowledged] 6,000 operatives in February 2024, 4 months into the war. The notion that only 204 other operatives were killed, whether Hamas operatives after February 2024 or operatives of other militant groups since the war's beginning is ludicrous. As late as December 2024, it [https://euromedmonitor.org/en/article/6645/Infographic:-444-days-of-genocide-in-Gaza---23-December-2024 | claimed] that less than 6,000 militants were killed despite the official's admission. While Hamas denied the official's claim, there is no reason to doubt the official's credibility and every reason to suspect Hamas officially denied the claim to avoid a morale loss among its forces, similar to its denial of Mohammed Deif's killing. Closetside (talk) 15:22, 8 May 2025 (UTC)
• Option 3 They appear to hold a clear bias and have repeatedly published unverified information, potentially even misinformation, about Gaza, despite being based in Europe. --Bruebach (talk) 16:32, 8 May 2025 (UTC)
• Option 2 Usable with attribution. It would be have been better if there were any journalists from reliable sources operating in Gaza but due to the circumstances an advocacy group is one of the few voices that remain. Daveosaurus (talk) 09:45, 11 May 2025 (UTC)
• Option 2 I came across this discussion while looking into the reliability of the source before using it. From what I've seen so far, and also based on what other editors have pointed out, it seems to be cited fairly often by reliable sources. Personally, I don't find the accusations of "extreme bias" very convincing. It is a human rights organization, and by nature such groups can be seen as controversial, depending on whom they are criticising or perhaps whom they are not. If it is used with proper attribution that should be sufficient. Paprikaiser (talk) 20:42, 11 May 2025 (UTC)

• It's important to note that Euro-Med runs [https://euromedmonitor.org/en/projects/5/WIKI-Rights Wiki-Rights], which "trains" Wikipedians with what appears to be a desire to change the coverage of certain topics to allign with their values. I believe that any participant is at minimum obligated to disclose their COI if they choose to participate in this discussions. FortunateSons (talk) 11:06, 19 March 2025 (UTC)
• :@FortunateSons while I see your reasoning, I think WP:ADVOCACY/WP:SOAP might be better targets than WP:BATTLEGROUND there. ADVOCACY covers trying to shape Wiki articles to fit certain beliefs or narratives in violation of WP:NPOV, while BATTLEGROUND moreso constitutes general aggressiveness and incivility (sometimes in pursuit of advocacy, but not always). The Kip ^(contribs) 18:26, 19 March 2025 (UTC)
• ::Ah, thank you! FortunateSons (talk) 11:33, 20 March 2025 (UTC)
• :Jesus fucking christ... — 🌙Eclipse (she/they/all neos • talk • edits) 22:11, 22 March 2025 (UTC)
• Wow, they've been running this program since 2015! Considering that I've never seen anyone disclosing this, there are definitely WP:COI/WP:CANVASSING issues here, however they should probably be discussed elsewhere. It's definitely a biased source, with their founder and chairman being [https://x.com/RamAbdu/status/1710979802717372844 really] [https://x.com/RamAbdu/status/1711014615885185265 happy] about the October 7 attack. Alaexis_¿question? 14:54, 19 March 2025 (UTC)
• :The political views of Jeff Bezos have zero impact on the reliability of Washington Post, so long as he doesn't interfere in the newspaper in a way that would undermine its accuracy. Same applies here.VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 13:39, 20 March 2025 (UTC)
• ::@Vice regent If I recall correctly, though, statements made by Jonathan Greenblatt outside of his role as head of the ADL were partly used as rationale to rate the ADL as GUNREL; there's also been other instances where the views/statements of a publication's main or sole owner/editor/etc were similarly used as points of unreliability, such as The Grayzone and Max Blumenthal's other outlets. That's not to say Abdu's had direct effects on EMHRM's reliability/lack thereof, but from a hypotheticals standpoint I don't think the argument that his views have impacted their publications is that out there.
• ::WaPo's a bit of a poor comparison as well, considering it's a large newspaper with an editorial process and (at least formerly?) fairly robust fact-checking; EMHRM, like the ADL, is an advocacy group, which aren't usually run to those same standards. The Kip ^(contribs) 16:36, 20 March 2025 (UTC)
• :::Don't forget the Jewish Chronicle, unreliable due to right-wing ideologues taking it over.[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_455#RFC_Jewish_Chronicle] Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 01:19, 14 April 2025 (UTC)
• ::Of course, newspaper owners have influence over their publications! That’s true for Jeff Bezos and many others. Michael Boutboul (talk) 13:15, 21 March 2025 (UTC)
• ::The views of a proprietor have no bearing on the reliability of the publication they own, correct. But the false statements of an editor do, I think, have bearing on the reliability of the publication they own. It’s not comparable. BobFromBrockley (talk) 21:35, 22 March 2025 (UTC)
• Did the proposer of this just think there wasn't enough happening in the world? They should not be wasting people's time dragging up again without some good reason. None was provided. NadVolum (talk) 15:45, 21 March 2025 (UTC)
• :The original discussion wasn’t an RfC, this is. The source comes up in discussions regularly, and is cited within many contentious articles, so a clear consensus on reliability is beneficial. FortunateSons (talk) 15:54, 21 March 2025 (UTC)
• Regarding the lack of reliability, here is a good example [https://euromedmonitor.org/en/article/5962/Israel-conducts-executions-in-Shifa-Hospital,-uses-its-staff-as-human-shields]

{{cquote|After failing to find any evidence of a military presence in the medical facility, the Israeli soldiers went crazy and deliberately carried out a series of executions, eliminating and directly shooting a number of the wounded in cold blood.}}

: They published it in November 2023. It's hard to prove that this didn't take place but we can check whether anyone else has reported on this ever since. Amnesty International said nothing about summary executions of the wounded in their [https://www.amnesty.org.au/israel-opt-israels-raid-of-al-shifa-hospital-is-a-devastating-attack-on-human-rights-in-gaza-crisis/ piece] about the Al-Shifa raid, which is otherwise quite critical of Israel's actions. I searched for other reports and found none.

: It's possible that their reliability varies and sometimes their bias doesn't prevent them from publishing valuable information that is then re-published by reliable sources, as demonstrated by some editors. In that case we should use those reliable sources. I don't think we should ever use information that appears only in Euromed reports. Alaexis_¿question? 08:02, 23 March 2025 (UTC)

::"It's hard to prove that this didn't take place" - then this is in no way "a good example of their lack of reliability". IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 14:49, 23 March 2025 (UTC)

:::A source making an exceptional claim that no other reliable source corroborates does have negative indications for notability. ꧁Zanahary꧂ 01:26, 30 April 2025 (UTC)

• This needs to be closed formally by an uninvolved closer, and I restored the text above after a bot automatically had tried to archive the discussions and RfC. Iljhgtn (talk) 17:30, 5 May 2025 (UTC)
• :Why have you bothered to do this, the RFC tag has been removed, the extra time from the do not archive tags has elapsed, and in all that time no new comments have been added. Maybe it will never be closed, having it on the noticeboard won't make that happen, and if it is closed the closer can restore it to the noticeboard. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 18:28, 5 May 2025 (UTC)
• ::How do we formally request a closer to come and close it? Iljhgtn (talk) 18:48, 5 May 2025 (UTC)
• :::It’s already on WP:Closure requests! FortunateSons (talk) 18:54, 5 May 2025 (UTC)
• ::::How do we prevent an RfC from being auto-archived prior to being closed? Sorry, I am unfamiliar with such requests and the deadlines before archive etc. Iljhgtn (talk) 18:56, 5 May 2025 (UTC)
• :::::You don’t, generally speaking. It can still be closed despite being archived, and no new comments make that closure easier. FortunateSons (talk) 18:58, 5 May 2025 (UTC)
• ::::::Oh I thought it could not be closed once archived, or at least it would be much less likely due to being much less visible. Iljhgtn (talk) 19:19, 5 May 2025 (UTC)
• :::::::In practice, that’s a reasonable concern, in theory, the closure request noticeboard should take care of that. FortunateSons (talk) 19:35, 5 May 2025 (UTC)
• :::I posted a closure request to WP:CR when the RFC tag was removed on the 19th of April, it will remain on CR until someone closes it. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 20:28, 5 May 2025 (UTC)

{{User:ClueBot III/DoNotArchiveUntil|1747861271}}

{{rfc|reli|rfcid=F0791D8}}

Is the handwritten {{strike|testimony}} letter of Geneviève Esquier, a former French Catholic journalist for the French Catholic publication L'Homme Nouveau, a reliable primary source for her own words {{strike|and testimony}}?

For previous discussions leading up to this RfC, please see the [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AThe_Poem_of_the_Man-God#WP:RSPRIMARY article talk page] and [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#Is_https://edifiant.fr_reliable tangential RSN discussion]. Arkenstrone (talk) 20:29, 16 April 2025 (UTC)

• Yes. (1) The website hosting the primary source document is [https://edifiant.fr edifiant.fr] a popular French Catholic platform featuring free Catholic content including articles, resources, videos, testimonies, and newsletter subscription. (2) The website's ScamDoc trust score is 88% (despite domain owner anonymity), and a trust rating of "good". (3) The website includes footnotes to the primary source document establishing its provenance, indicating it was mailed to them by Geneviève Esquier on March 8, 2023, and published to the website the same day. (4) The website includes additional footnotes to the document, indicating they had verbal communications with Geneviève Esquier confirming certain details in the letter. (5) The primary source document has been in the public domain for over 2 years on [https://edifiant.fr edifiant.fr], with high visibility and no claims of inauthenticity. (6) This handwritten testimony satisfies the Wikipedia policy WP:RSPRIMARY. (7) The handwritten testimony document [https://edifiant.fr/cardinal-joseph-ratzinger-reconnait-maria-valtorta/ can be found here.] Arkenstrone (talk) 20:29, 16 April 2025 (UTC)
• Words? Yes, most likely. Testimony? No. We don't hold RfCs on whether primary-source material is factual, which is what 'testimony' implies. And note that agreeing that the words are hers doesn't in of itself amount to agreement that said words need to be cited in the article. AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:31, 16 April 2025 (UTC)
• {{summoned by bot}} The letter is a WP:SPS? meaning that it's reliability would be confined to WP:ABOUTSELF. However the usage in the article (see Special:Diff/1285286322 for the last insertion) indicates that it was being used to make statements about third parties and thus fails the limited usage provided for by WP:ABOUTSELF. TarnishedPath^talk 22:23, 16 April 2025 (UTC)
• No, No and No. There are several reasons why this should not be in the article. To begin with, we discussed this issue forever and a day just above on this page under the title "Is https://edifiant.fr reliable?". The result there was that the source has no provenance. It is totally unclear who owns the edifiant.fr website, but it is obvious that Esquier does not because the site claims they received an email from her with the image of her letter. There is no evidence that the handwriting belongs to Esquier. For all we know this coud be a case of the Jar'Edo Wens hoax which survived in the public domain (in several languages) for about 10 years. Moreover, this is a highly controversial claim. All other indications we have suggest that Ratzinger ([https://www.amazon.com/Cardinal-Ratzinger-Vaticans-Enforcer-Faith/dp/0826412653| the Vatican Enforcer]) would have danced cha cha in front of the Spanish Steps in Rome before supporting a book that used to be on the Forbidden Index. A controversial claim can not be supported by a single questionable source. And for all we know, this could be a website set up by a French relative of Clifford Irving to anonymously collect donations. The question is: How long do we need to discuss all this again? 20 years, 30 years? Yesterday, all my dreams... (talk) 22:46, 16 April 2025 (UTC)
• No It would be a reliable primary source if it's provenance could be reliably sourced, but the only place saying it's real is couple of closely aligned websites neither of which have any of the commons signs of a reliable source. That the website isn't serving malware and hasn't been sued doesn't equate to a reputation for fact checking and accuracy. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 22:56, 16 April 2025 (UTC)
• No This is a WP:SPS that has language on its website explicitly soliciting anonymous contributions. As such we cannot confirm the provenance of the document and thus it is not usable as an WP:ABOUTSELF source. Simonm223 (talk) 17:18, 17 April 2025 (UTC)
• No, not for this. The [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?diff=1285375804&oldid=1285295984&title=The_Poem_of_the_Man-God paragraph you are trying to add] concerns {{tq|claims about third parties}} and {{tq|claims about events not directly related to the source}} and therefore doesn't pass the restrictions on WP:ABOUTSELF, even if the providence could be established. Obviously you cannot bypass that just with attribution. The purpose of ABOUTSELF is for people talking about themselves, not to cite them for statements about other people - statements about other people require sourcing that passes WP:RS, which this obviously does not. The "scam score" for a website does not imply that they perform any sort of the sort of fact-checking for statements posted there that a WP:RS would require. The obvious purpose of this paragraph is to imply a fact about Ratzinger's actions and correspondence, not to introduce a fact about Esquier; that is a totally inappropriate purpose for ABOUTSELF. --Aquillion (talk) 19:27, 17 April 2025 (UTC)
• Question. Source X is generally reliable for the fact that source X says X. That's generally trivial (except when sources are retroactively doctored, which came up with WP:DAILYMAIL discussions), or when provenance is not certain. Aside from WP:DUE concerns, we've unfortunately got a question here about provenance. If there are sources that cite Geneviève Esquier's writings in this context, and do attribute these words to Esquier, then those are the sources that should be cited (or, at least, would be helpful in this discussion).{{pb}}{{yo|Arkenstrone}} Are there other sources that make the same attribution of this document to Esquier? If so, it would be very helpful here—we're generally not going to include information in an article for which the only documentation is a single primary source document hosted on a single website and about which nobody else has written. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 01:01, 19 April 2025 (UTC)
• :Hawk, The only other source is the site that sells the book, and if you look at the previous discussion Arkenstone said "I think Yesterday is right in that the letter on mariavaltorta.com was very likely obtained from edifiant.fr". Hence the edifiant.fr site is the only one. And note that as Simon pointed out below edifiant.fr is WP:UGC. So given your response to Reddit below, that rules it out. Generally, WP:UGC sites of unknown origin can not be trusted. On impulse, I was, at one point considering submitting an anonymous article to that site claiming that there was a letter from Mother Teresa to the effect that she would feed the hungry by multiplication of the loaves to see what happens and if they would publish it. But I did not because they might publish it and then someone (no names mentioned, of course) would add it to Mother Teresa's page and then start a n Rfc about it here. I think I made the right decision. Yesterday, all my dreams... (talk) 02:54, 19 April 2025 (UTC)
• ::Why do you fill your comments with your rambling stream-of-consciousness completely unrelated to the point? It makes reading your comments difficult and a waste of time. Just make your points and spare us the rest. Regarding your actual point, can you provide examples of UGC? Please do so in the discussion below where I respond to Simon's related point. Arkenstrone (talk) 20:00, 22 April 2025 (UTC)
• :::Arkenstrone, does this mean that I will not be receiving a New Year greeting card from you at the end of this year? I guess so. Now, regarding WP:UGC, Simon already responded to you below and I agree with his response. And I will not even attempt to explain the concepts of WP:RS or WP:UGC here given that one of the sites you mentioned below is a Wiki. Yes, fr.mariavaltorta.wiki is a Wiki. How can that be WP:RS? So I have othing else to say on that. And thank you for directly admitting that all the sites you mentioned below state that they got it from edifiant.fr. So edifiant.fr is the only site that claims to have received the letter. End of story. Now regarding your claim below about the editorial policies of edifiant.fr, I am sure if one of Clifford Irving's cousins had set up an anonymous web site that asked for donations, they would have claimed similar things about their verification policies. For all I know, that website may have been set up by a French relative of Mr Irving. That is all I have to say. This discussion is quite repetitive with you typing several times longer items than anyone else. Yesterday, all my dreams... (talk) 22:22, 22 April 2025 (UTC)
• ::::??? He's talking about edifiant.fr being UGC, which it is not. You're getting your facts confused. The other links are simply to show that the primary source on edifiant.fr is referenced by these other sources, some of which may be semi-reliable, some not. Edifiant.fr is the site to which the original letter was submitted by Esquier and verified by their editors. Therefore it makes sense that all references eventually end up pointing to the edifiant.fr article.
• ::::Also, I ran the second website [https://www.mariedenazareth.com mariedenazareth.com] through the ScamDoc verification service and it gave an even better result: 95% trust rating, and trust score of "Excellent".[https://www.scamdoc.com/view/411329] Arkenstrone (talk) 00:08, 23 April 2025 (UTC)
• :::::Arkenstrone, I just laughed at your last comment. Just laughed. Buddy, Scamdoc scores have absolutely nothing to do with the reliability of the "contents" of websites. They are about security. To understand that note that the Scamdoc score for Reddit is 99% [https://www.scamdoc.com/view/1956]. Yes, 99%. Can Reddit content be trusted? No, no and no. I really do not know what to tell you, given that type of comment on your part. Yesterday, all my dreams... (talk) 00:28, 23 April 2025 (UTC)
• ::::::As usual you are resorting to straw man logical fallacies, and so you may as well be laughing at yourself. I never said that a good ScamDoc score implies that the site is reliable per WP:RS. But only to counter your absurd stream-of-consciousness nonsense that attempts to paint the edifiant.fr site as some kind of scammy looney-tune site, which is a complete misrepresentation of the truth. Both it and mariedenazareth.com are French Catholic platforms that emphasize providing high-quality Catholic articles, resources, and newsletters to support spiritual growth. Arkenstrone (talk) 00:48, 23 April 2025 (UTC)

::{{pb}}{{yo|Red-tailed hawk}} Several websites reference the primary source document on edifiant.fr:

::mariavaltorta.com - The official website of the Maria Valtorta Heritage Foundation. It summarizes her account of Ratzinger’s correspondence with Marcel Clément, director of L’Homme Nouveau, and cites the edifiant.fr article as the source of her handwritten testimony. The article emphasizes Ratzinger’s initial reservations and subsequent approval of Valtorta’s work after review.

::[https://mariavaltorta.com/the-unpublished-letters-of-joseph-ratzinger/]

::mariedenazareth.com - In a section titled “Comment aborder les écrits de Maria Valtorta?” (updated November 14, 2022), this site references Esquier’s testimony as published on edifiant.fr. It quotes her account of Ratzinger’s letters and includes a direct link to the edifiant.fr article, noting that Ratzinger authorized L’Homme Nouveau to resume promoting Valtorta’s works after finding no doctrinal issues.[https://www.mariedenazareth.com/questions-de-foi/raisons-de-croire-chretiennes/les-signes-miracles-et-prodiges-divins/les-extraordinaires-visions-de-maria-valtorta/maria-valtorta-est-une-vraie-fille-de-leglise]

::1000raisonsdecroire.com - The article “Les 700 extraordinaires visions de l’Évangile reçues par Maria Valtorta :(+1961)” on this site mentions Ratzinger’s shift in stance, referencing Esquier’s testimony as published on edifiant.fr. It highlights Ratzinger’s letter to Marcel Clément, as described in the edifiant.fr document, to support the claim that he found Valtorta’s writings doctrinally sound.[https://1000raisonsdecroire.com/maria-valtorta]

::fr.mariavaltorta.wiki - The Wiki Maria Valtorta page titled “Benoît XVI et Maria Valtorta” (updated August 18, 2021, with later revisions) indirectly references Esquier’s testimony by discussing Ratzinger’s interactions with L’Homme Nouveau and his eventual approval of Valtorta’s work. It links to the mariedenazareth.com article which then links to the edifiant.fr article. A later page, “La révélation privée de Maria Valtorta” (updated November 30, 2024), also mentions Ratzinger’s favorable stance post-1990s, consistent with the edifiant.fr testimony.[https://fr.mariavaltorta.wiki/wiki/Benoît_XVI_et_Maria_Valtorta][https://fr.mariavaltorta.wiki/wiki/La_r%C3%A9v%C3%A9lation_priv%C3%A9e_de_Maria_Valtorta] Arkenstrone (talk) 19:48, 22 April 2025 (UTC)

::: As stated above, all of these sites state that they got their info from edifiant.fr, so nothing new here. Yesterday, all my dreams... (talk) 22:22, 22 April 2025 (UTC)

::Hawk, beyond all that, please note that this is a highly controversial claim. All other indications we have suggest that Ratzinger ([https://www.amazon.com/Cardinal-Ratzinger-Vaticans-Enforcer-Faith/dp/0826412653| the Vatican Enforcer]) would have never supported a book that used to be on the Forbidden Index. A controversial claim can not be supported by a single questionable source. Yesterday, all my dreams... (talk) 15:47, 23 April 2025 (UTC)

:::You're completely missing the point. Nobody's claiming anything about Ratzinger. This is only about Esquier's handwritten letter describing her personal experience and witnessing of something. Arkenstrone (talk) 00:05, 24 April 2025 (UTC)

: No from what I have seen this is not a good source for this information due to multiple concerns.

1. No provence for the photo, which means that this could be true, or it could be a complete hoax.
2. This seems to be only website (that I have seen) with this sort of information (do note that I haven't done a thorough search for other websites), and this topic doesn't seem to be notable, otherwise there should be more sources for this.
3. This website appears to not be Reliable or have a history of fact checking, to me it looks like a small website that is mostly trafficked by a few people that happen to know it exists, I could locate hundreds of small websites like this one. (In size, not topic.)

Sheriff U3 07:36, 30 April 2025 (UTC)

Why is this information important and why does it need to be included in the article per WP:DUE? Because the article conveys that Cardinal Ratzinger was not favorably disposed towards Valtorta's work, especially with recent references to Miesel's article (which contains many errors), but also through private letters by Ratzinger in 1985 and 1993 expressing his personal opinion at that time. The handwritten testimony by Esquier adds important context, as she states she was witness to correspondence received clarifying Ratzinger's views.

According to Esquier, she received a letter from Ratzinger addressed to {{Interlanguage link|Marcel Clément|fr=Marcel Clément|fr}}, the former director of the French Catholic publication {{Interlanguage link|L'Homme Nouveau|fr=L'Homme Nouveau|fr}} asking him to stop all articles and sales of Valtorta's work until he had time to review it. One year later after reviewing the work, Ratzinger sent another letter lifting the prohibition expressing that the work contained nothing contrary to faith and morals.

This information provides counter-balance to the articles' one-sided presentation of Ratzinger's somewhat unfavorable personal views of the work without which the article conveys a misleading conclusion. Indeed, up until recently, I also believed Ratzinger was ill-disposed towards the work. Now I see this is not the case, and that the situation is more nuanced. This nuance needs to be captured in the article. Again, this handwritten testimony is an important statement of an eye-witness account. These are Esquier's own words, and she is a reliable source for her own words.

When the time comes and the original letters by Ratzinger are found (they are likely buried in the paper archives of L'Homme Nouveau), we can then replace this reliable primary source evidence with reliable primary or secondary source proof of the original letters themselves. Arkenstrone (talk) 20:29, 16 April 2025 (UTC)

:"she is a reliable source for her own words". Yes, if they are being correctly reproduced. If that is the case it doesn't however constitute evidence that her claims regarding content of a letter from Ratzinger are factual. We don't analyse primary sources ourselves, and draw conclusions from them. We require secondary sources, with the relevant expertise, to do that. AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:03, 16 April 2025 (UTC)

::Yes, correctly reproduced, and no factual claims as to the content of the letter itself, which requires reliable secondary sources. Understood. Arkenstrone (talk) 21:19, 16 April 2025 (UTC)

:::You argue above that "This information provides counter-balance..." It doesn't. Not unless we assume that it is factual. Which we can't. AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:27, 16 April 2025 (UTC)

::::Right. Counter-balance in the sense of clarifying Ratzinger's opinion concerning the work IF Esquier's statements are later proved true, beyond Esquier's handwritten testimony. Arkenstrone (talk) 21:36, 16 April 2025 (UTC)

:::::There are no circumstances whatsoever where it is appropriate to include otherwise-questionable content on the basis that it might be proved correct later. AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:44, 16 April 2025 (UTC)

::::::Okay. Esquier is a reliable source for her own words, and that's all. The content of what she says is unverified and no conclusions can be drawn from it. Arkenstrone (talk) 22:01, 16 April 2025 (UTC)

:::::::Please don't put words in my mouth. I wrote above "if they are being correctly reproduced", and also wrote "most likely are", this is not an absolute assertion that Esquier is a reliable source on this matter. On reflection, that was a little confusing, but anyway, given that no conclusions should be drawn regarding Esquier's veracity, I can see little merit in inclusion of such content in the article, regardless of whether they are her own words or not. You seem to be trying to shoe-horn them in to counter what secondary sources say. AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:25, 16 April 2025 (UTC)

::::::::I wasn't trying to put words into your mouth, I was stating what I understood thus far based on previous statements. The merit is that she is a well-known French Catholic journalist formerly working for a well-known French Catholic publication. She said something. Given her background, some people value what she says, even if it's only an opinion. People can choose whether to accept what she said or not. What she said is relevant in context. Arkenstrone (talk) 22:38, 16 April 2025 (UTC)

:::::::::'Some people' can value whatever they like. Wikipedia is under no obligation to follow suit. Even more so if others commenting here are correct in seeing the material as falling afoul of WP:ABOUTSELF. Though I really don't think there are legitimate grounds for inclusion either way. The whole thing seems to revolve around a letter from Ratzinger that may or may not have said something-or-other, being used as special pleading to counter reliably sourced information on things he verifiably did say. AndyTheGrump (talk) 23:03, 16 April 2025 (UTC)

:::::::::To expand further on the above, Wikipedia policy on notability seems adequately satisfied in regard to the Poem of the Man-God article. Satisfied through coverage of the topic in secondary reliable sources. And it is such sources we should be basing the article on. There are no legitimate reasons however why the article should become a battleground between those who have differing opinions regarding the Poems theological significance etc, and accordingly, we aren't obliged to host stuff from obscure websites just because someone wants to push a particular argument. Which you quite clearly do. Go find a forum for that. Or take it up with the Church, and let them decide. When they have, we'll have something to add to the article. From sources we base articles on. AndyTheGrump (talk) 23:28, 16 April 2025 (UTC)

::::::::::You may not be aware, but there was a discussion recently about whether or not to include the words of a literary critic (Miesel) from a questionable source (website that some here claimed was not a reliable source, but also her article contained several verifiable factual errors). The consensus seemed to be that the article's reliability was questionable but we should include it anyway since Miesel was a reliable source for her own words, plus she was a reasonably well-known literary critic. That reference is in the "Criticism" section, and so it naturally conveys a negative point of view concerning Valtorta's work.

::::::::::Similarly, Esquier, a reasonably well-known French Catholic journalist, submitted and confirmed a handwritten letter which was published to a website that some here say is coming from a questionable source. But that website is only hosting a primary source document. The document itself is a reliable source for the authors own words which describe her own personal experience. There is no compelling reason to assume the website is inherently unreliable as a host of a primary source document per WP:RSPRIMARY which has not been contested as illegitimate in the 2 years it has been highly visible. They also provide the provenance of the document and the circumstances of its receipt. Esquier's words convey a certain point of view. In this case, that view is one that is in support of Valtorta's work, which is why it appeared in the "General support" section. In both cases (Miesel v. Esquier) we don't need to accept as objectively true the content of the opinions, words, views or statements that are being conveyed. After all, the contention is they are both reliable sources for their own words.

::::::::::{{tq | The whole thing seems to revolve around a letter from Ratzinger that may or may not have said something-or-other, being used as special pleading to counter reliably sourced information on things he verifiably did say.}}

::::::::::Not to counter, but provide nuance and clarification by a well-known individual who claims she was directly involved and a witness to the events at that time. Her own words are also reliably (primary) sourced information. That's what she said. People can draw their own conclusions from that.

::::::::::{{tq | just because someone wants to push a particular argument}}

::::::::::It's not about me pushing a particular argument. Everyone has a point of view. One of the purposes of Wikipedia policy is not to prohibit editors from having a point of view, but rather to prevent those points of view, as much as possible, from entering into articles without reliable sources. Criticism and support sections are naturally going to be pushing/presenting a particular argument. As long as they are reliably sourced, that isn't a problem. I won't address your other statements concerning theological significance, battlegrounds, forums, etc. as those are beside the point of this RfC.

::::::::::BTW, your initial statement of words vs. testimony I accepted at face value, as I presumed you were drawing certain special meaning from the word "testimony" which I didn't intend. But upon further reflection, "testimony" is simply someone's words that are sworn or affirmed to be true. But that doesn't make them objectively true. And they are still their own words. So the distinction between words and testimony doesn't seem especially relevant in this context. Arkenstrone (talk) 19:08, 17 April 2025 (UTC)

:::::::::::By "some here claim" what Arkenstrone means is that they objected strenuously to the inclusion of the Miesel source and were frustrated that the majority of respondents disagreed with them. Simonm223 (talk) 19:23, 17 April 2025 (UTC)

::::::::::::Please don't put words in my mouth. And at least try to be WP:CIVIL and WP:AVOIDUNCIVIL. Arkenstrone (talk) 21:42, 17 April 2025 (UTC)

:{{tq|she is a reliable source for her own words}}

:Only insofar as those words pertain to herself, not in regards to the acts and words of others. TarnishedPath^talk 22:26, 16 April 2025 (UTC)

::Are her own words, which in this case she asserts describes her own lived experience (being a witness to hearing or seeing something), do they not pertain to herself? Arkenstrone (talk) 23:38, 16 April 2025 (UTC)

:::Her words are a reliable source for her claiming to have witnessed something. They are not a reliable source that that thing happened or that she did witness it. If the thing is in relation to a third party (e.g. that someone else did or said something) then a self-published source can be used to verify that the author made the claim, but nothing beyond that. If a SPS is the only source for the claim being made then it is extremely unlikely to be DUE for inclusion. Thryduulf (talk) 12:31, 17 April 2025 (UTC)

::::Fair enough. But what if the source is not SPS? There is no evidence to suggest that it is, and some evidence to suggest it is not (footnotes establishing provenance). It seems to me that WP:PRIMARY and WP:RSPRIMARY are far more relevant in this context. Arkenstrone (talk) 21:07, 17 April 2025 (UTC)

::*WP:ABOUTSELF is clear - it can't be used for material that involves {{tq|claims about third parties}}. Obviously quoting her making a claim about a third party involves claims about third parties. --Aquillion (talk) 19:41, 17 April 2025 (UTC)

::*:And all that is setting aside whether we can even use this letter as an WP:ABOUTSELF source considering that it's a scan of a hand-written letter on a website that encourages anonymous submissions and has opaque ownership. There's a non-zero chance this is a hoax letter. Simonm223 (talk) 19:48, 17 April 2025 (UTC)

::*:Both you and Simonm223 have made the assertion that we are dealing with WP:ABOUTSELF, but that applies to self-published sources, and questionable (secondary) sources. But this is not a self-published source nor is it a questionable secondary source. Esquier does not run that website. The footnotes to the document establishing provenance expressly state that she mailed them the letter on March 8, 2023, and it was published the same day, and that they confirmed details of the letter by verbal communication with Esquier. Also, the document is not being used as a questionable secondary source, but as a reliable primary source. I fail to see how WP:SPS and WP:ABOUTSELF are applicable in this context. WP:PRIMARY and WP:RSPRIMARY seem to be far more relevant policies in this instance.

::*::"Primary sources are original materials that are close to an event, and are often accounts written by people who are directly involved. They offer an insider's view of an event, a period of history, a work of art, a political decision, and so on. Primary sources may or may not be independent sources."

::*:Arkenstrone (talk) 21:01, 17 April 2025 (UTC)

::*::This is obvious UGC what are you talking about? Simonm223 (talk) 21:04, 17 April 2025 (UTC)

::*:::I don't understand what you're saying. Please elaborate your point. Arkenstrone (talk) 21:12, 17 April 2025 (UTC)

::*::::The website solicits, and hosts, anonymous submissions. This makes the content on it effectively like that of a wiki. Thus it is WP:UGC. Simonm223 (talk) 11:41, 18 April 2025 (UTC)

::*:::::What are you talking about? The content is not user-generated. Did you read their editorial ethics? Also, they have a section to encourage readers to send suggestions or corrections, and another section for those who would like to contribute their talents, which virtually every website has. So are you willing to concede that all websites are therefore UGC? Quote:

::*::::::Editorial ethics

::*::::::[…]

::*::::::As a result, we have chosen to be hyper-selective, rigorous and concise in order to share only the best and do it well.

::*::::::[…]

::*::::::All our content is verified, sourced, and regularly updated as needed. This way, our platform allows you to get straight to the point, save thousands of hours of research, and access the best information.

::*::::::Contribute

::*::::::Send suggestions or corrections

::*::::::Have you spotted a typo, an error, or have additional information to share? No matter where you are on the site, you can send us your suggestions at any time.

::*::::::Offer your talents

::*::::::Photographers, designers, graphic designers, developers, proofreaders, documentarians, translators, etc. We are constantly looking for talented people eager to contribute their skills. Send us a message using the form at the bottom of the page to join the adventure.

::*:::::Arkenstrone (talk) 20:07, 22 April 2025 (UTC)

::*::::::What you are describing is an anonymously managed website soliciting contributions from readers whose participation is likewise anonymous. There is no editorial control nor ability to confirm provenance which makes this equivalent to UGC. Simonm223 (talk) 20:12, 22 April 2025 (UTC)

::*:::::::Not at all. What I'm describing is a statement of their editorial ethics and a form for users to provide feedback or suggestions which is very common on most websites. That is not UGC. At all. Quoting from WP:UGC:

::*::::::::Websites whose content is largely user-generated are generally unacceptable as sources. Sites with user-generated content include personal websites, personal and group blogs (excluding newspaper and magazine blogs), content farms, Internet forums, social media sites, fansites, video and image hosting services, most wikis and other collaboratively created websites.

::*:::::::None of that describes edifiant.fr. It is a French Catholic platform that emphasizes providing high-quality Catholic articles, testimonies, content—videos, resources, and a newsletter, free of charge to support spiritual growth. It it clearly not WP:UGC. Not sure where you and Yesterday are getting that. Arkenstrone (talk) 00:29, 23 April 2025 (UTC)

::*::::::Arkenstrone, look, you can go on singing a lonely tune about edifiant.fr. But this is a highly controversial claim about Ratzinger. All other indications we have suggest that Ratzinger ([https://www.amazon.com/Cardinal-Ratzinger-Vaticans-Enforcer-Faith/dp/0826412653| the Vatican Enforcer]) would have danced naked on the streets of Rome before supporting a book that used to be on the Forbidden Index. A controversial claim can not be supported by a single questionable source. And for all we know, this could be a website set up by a French relative of Clifford Irving to anonymously collect donations. You have no case. Accept it and move on. Yesterday, all my dreams... (talk) 15:53, 23 April 2025 (UTC)

::*:::::::Nothing of what you said addressed my question of edifiant.fr being UGC. How did you and Simon arrive at this conclusion? It's not supported by the facts. Again, please stop deflecting with stream-of-consciousness nonsense. It's not helpful. Arkenstrone (talk) 19:22, 23 April 2025 (UTC)

::*::::::::{{u|Yesterday, all my dreams...}} and {{u|Arkenstrone}} the RFC has another 3+ weeks to run. Can I suggest doing something else while you wait for a result, you've both stated you positions quite thoroughly. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 22:09, 23 April 2025 (UTC)

::*:::::::::Actively, an excellent suggestion. I will do so. Thank you. Yesterday, all my dreams... (talk) 22:48, 23 April 2025 (UTC)

Given the very long discussion of this issue just above in this page (under the title "Is https://edifiant.fr reliable?") and the fact that it was decided that the source has no provenance, the key question I have is: Should we spell "stubborn" with 2b's, 3 or 4? Yesterday, all my dreams... (talk) 22:32, 16 April 2025 (UTC)

:I think this is, what, the third time? We've had this conversation recently. I think that a snow-close is likely here. And then I hope people can move on. Simonm223 (talk) 17:20, 17 April 2025 (UTC)

::I think it should be allowed to run it's course. A RFC should hopefully bring a conclusion to the matter, and a early close could be used to argue against whatever the result ends up being. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 18:11, 17 April 2025 (UTC)

:::I agree. Alas the course is likely to be very long, given the lengthy (and often repetitive) answers in support of the item. I guess some user (no names mentioned of course) will have to buy a new keyboard before the rfc has run its course. That user will probably not be me, or you. Yesterday, all my dreams... (talk) 22:28, 22 April 2025 (UTC)

::::I've said my piece. edifiant.fr is eminently non-reliable and we should not be sourcing primary sources from it. Simonm223 (talk) 15:49, 23 April 2025 (UTC)

Following up on Red-tailed hawk's useful question in the Survey section, I've asked Grok AI to help with evaluating the reliability of mariedenazareth.com as a secondary source that references edifiant.fr's primary source handwritten letter by Esquier, all within the context of Wikipedia's reliable source policy. The results bring up some of the more pertinent points that have already been brought up by editors here, with some interesting and helpful additions and conclusions. {{yo|AndyTheGrump|TarnishedPath|ActivelyDisinterested|Aquillion|Red-tailed hawk|Simonm223|p=.}}

{{hat|AI-generated output from Grok}}

Grok AI:

To determine whether mariedenazareth.com can be considered a reliable secondary source for discussing the primary source handwritten letter testimonial by Geneviève Esquier on edifiant.fr—specifically her claim about witnessing a letter from Cardinal Ratzinger requesting a halt and later resumption of Maria Valtorta’s book sales—under Wikipedia’s reliable source policy (WP:RS and WP:PRIMARY), we need to evaluate mariedenazareth.com’s credibility, its handling of Esquier’s testimony, and its alignment with Wikipedia’s standards for this specific claim. The focus is on Esquier’s personal experience as described, not the letter’s existence or Ratzinger’s actions.

{{pb}}Clarifying the Specific Claim

Esquier’s March 2023 handwritten testimony on edifiant.fr, referenced in mariedenazareth.com’s July 25, 2023, article “Maria Valtorta est une vraie fille de l'Eglise”, includes a claim (dated “1990–1994” by mariedenazareth.com) that she witnessed or was aware of a letter from Ratzinger to Marcel Clément, then-editor of L’Homme Nouveau. This letter allegedly requested a temporary halt to sales of Valtorta’s books, followed by permission to resume, implying approval. The question centers on mariedenazareth.com’s reliability as a secondary source for discussing Esquier’s personal experience of witnessing this letter, per Wikipedia’s policies.

{{pb}}Wikipedia’s Reliable Source Policy

• Primary Sources (WP:PRIMARY): Primary sources are firsthand accounts (e.g., testimonies, letters). Esquier’s edifiant.fr letter is primary for her claim. Wikipedia allows primary sources for “straightforward, descriptive statements” with attribution (e.g., “Esquier claimed she witnessed…”), but not for analysis or contentious claims without secondary support. The hosting platform must be reliable for context.
• Secondary Sources (WP:RS): Reliable secondary sources interpret or summarize primary sources, requiring editorial oversight, fact-checking, and independence. Advocacy-driven or niche sites are less reliable, especially for third-party claims (e.g., about Ratzinger), but can be acceptable for attributed claims about personal experiences if credible.
• Scope: Mariedenazareth.com must accurately report Esquier’s testimony about her experience, be credible within its scope, and avoid unverified assertions beyond her account.

{{pb}}Esquier’s Primary Source on Edifiant.fr

• Content: Esquier claims she witnessed a Ratzinger letter to Clément (1990–1994) about halting and resuming Valtorta’s sales, tied to her L’Homme Nouveau role.
• Credibility: Esquier’s credentials—journalist and editor at L’Homme Nouveau, author of Catholic books (e.g., Lettre aux Chrétiens de France sur le baptême de Clovis, 1996), and 2014 Toulon candidate—support her plausibility as a witness.
• Edifiant.fr: With an 88% ScamDoc trust score, edifiant.fr is reliable for hosting Esquier’s words (WP:ABOUTSELF) but not for verifying Ratzinger’s actions due to its advocacy focus and lack of editorial oversight.

{{pb}}Evaluating Mariedenazareth.com’s Reliability

Mariedenazareth.com’s article summarizes Esquier’s edifiant.fr testimony, citing her claim about the Ratzinger-Clément letter. Here’s the evaluation:

Credibility and Mission:

• Mission: Mariedenazareth.com, run by the Marie de Nazareth Association, aims to “make Mary known and loved” and promote Catholic faith through multimedia, with a “Catholic ecumenical” Mission Statement: “To make Mary known and loved, and to help as many people as possible discover the beauty, breadth and truth of the Catholic faith.”
• Organizational Context: The association’s Church ties and multimedia output (books, DVDs) suggest legitimacy in Catholic circles, but it’s not an academic or news outlet. Its focus on Valtorta, whose works lack full Church approval, indicates a niche, advocacy-driven perspective.
• Trust Metrics: Mariedenazareth.com has a 95% trust rating and an “excellent” trust score from ScamDoc, indicating strong user trust and reliability for delivering Catholic content. This high rating enhances its credibility compared to edifiant.fr (88%), but ScamDoc reflects user perception and site security, not editorial rigor or independence, which Wikipedia prioritizes.

Handling of Esquier’s Testimony:

• Accuracy: The article accurately cites Esquier’s March 2023 edifiant.fr testimony, summarizing her claim of witnessing the Ratzinger-Clément letter (1990–1994). It doesn’t misrepresent her personal experience, making it reliable for relaying her account.
• Bias: The site uses Esquier’s testimony to promote Valtorta’s legitimacy, linking it to Ratzinger’s authority. This advocacy bias means it may accept her claim uncritically, but it doesn’t distort her stated experience.
• Verification: It notes the letter is with Clément’s grandson but provides no evidence (e.g., scan, third-party confirmation). For Esquier’s personal experience, verification isn’t required, as the claim is her subjective account.

Wikipedia Reliability Standards:

• For Esquier’s Personal Experience: WP:PRIMARY allows secondary sources to discuss primary accounts for descriptive statements. Mariedenazareth.com is reliable for stating, “Esquier claimed, as cited by mariedenazareth.com, that she witnessed a letter from Ratzinger halting and resuming Valtorta’s sales,” with attribution, fitting Wikipedia’s cautious use.
• WP:RS Limitations: The 95% trust rating supports niche credibility, but mariedenazareth.com’s advocacy focus and lack of editorial oversight (e.g., no named editors or fact-checking process) make it less reliable than academic journals or news outlets. Wikipedia prefers sources with established editorial standards.
• Independence: The site is independent of Esquier (no affiliation evidence), but its Valtorta advocacy reduces neutrality.
• Notability: For niche topics (e.g., Esquier’s experiences, Valtorta’s reception), mariedenazareth.com is acceptable to show how her testimony was circulated. For Ratzinger claims, Wikipedia requires stronger sources (e.g., L’Homme Nouveau, Vatican records).

Specific Claim Constraints:

• Scope: The claim is Esquier’s experience of witnessing the letter, not its existence or Ratzinger’s actions. Mariedenazareth.com reliably reports her account, suitable for Wikipedia attribution.
• Trust Metrics Impact: The 95% rating enhances credibility for Catholic content, but Wikipedia’s focus on editorial oversight limits reliability to attributed claims.
• No Overreach: The site’s broader assertion—Ratzinger supporting Valtorta—exceeds Esquier’s experience and requires evidence. For her witnessing claim, it stays within bounds.

{{pb}}Comparison to Other Secondary Sources

• Stronger Options: A L’Homme Nouveau article or Ratzinger biography (e.g., Seewald’s Benedict XVI: A Life) would offer editorial context or archival evidence, but these don’t mention the letter.
• Edifiant.fr: As the primary source, edifiant.fr is reliable for Esquier’s words. Mariedenazareth.com adds value by showing reception.

{{pb}}Conclusion

Mariedenazareth.com can be considered a reliable secondary source for discussing Esquier’s edifiant.fr testimony about her personal experience of witnessing Ratzinger’s letter on Valtorta’s sales, under Wikipedia’s reliable source policy, with caveats:

• Reliable for Attribution: Its 95% ScamDoc rating supports credibility for relaying Esquier’s claim, suitable for Wikipedia to cite with attribution (e.g., “According to mariedenazareth.com, Esquier claimed in a 2023 edifiant.fr testimony that she witnessed a letter…”). This fits WP:PRIMARY’s descriptive use.
• Limited by Advocacy: Its devotional mission and lack of editorial rigor make it less reliable than scholarly or journalistic sources. Wikipedia would accept it for niche, attributed claims but not for Ratzinger’s actions without evidence.
• Scope: It’s reliable only for Esquier’s subjective experience, not broader claims about Ratzinger or Valtorta.

For citing Esquier’s experience, mariedenazareth.com is adequate with attribution. To strengthen reliability, locating the Ratzinger-Clément letter or a L’Homme Nouveau reference would help.

{{hab}}

Arkenstrone (talk) 00:07, 24 April 2025 (UTC)

:Grok has absolutely no comprehension of Wikipedia's policies, the preceding output is wrong on just about every level and is a waste of editors time. If you want to make an argument or understand the relevant policies I suggest reading them yourself, Grok's answers are basically very verbose nonsense. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 09:54, 24 April 2025 (UTC)

::It's wrong? How so? I read the policies, and compared Grok's analysis with my own comprehension of them, and it appears perfectly in compliance with them, even including verbatim excerpts of Wikipedia policy in several instances. I fail to see how Grok got it "wrong on just about every level". Please share where Grok got it wrong, specifically. Arkenstrone (talk) 15:19, 29 April 2025 (UTC)

:::Sorry but that would require reading "AI" glurge. Hatted as irrelevant is the best place to put automated textwalls. I think someone should write an essay about how, if you find yourself using automated text generators in a noticeboard argument, you need to WP:DROPTHESTICK because you've lost all credibility. Simonm223 (talk) 15:25, 29 April 2025 (UTC)

:::No. If you want to put forward an argument based on your reading of Wikipedia's policies I'll happily discuss it with you, but I'm not going to spend my time talking with Grok. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 16:06, 29 April 2025 (UTC)

::::My argument is essentially the same as Grok's, as I've carefully examined what Grok produced and it is perfectly coherent and understandable with clear points being made throughout. If you or others can't see that, I submit that it's likely because you don't want to and perhaps some bias is entering into the mix. I've simply used Grok to analyze and provide additional context and information. In summary, and in my own words, citing Wikipedia policy:

::::1. Primary sources WP:PRIMARY are original materials that are close to an event, and are often accounts written by people who are directly involved (e.g., testimonies, letters). Esquier’s edifiant.fr letter is a primary source for her claim. Therefore, even by Wikipedia's own standards, the primary source document is allowed provided it communicates only her own words and lived experience. However, to further strengthen it's reliability, I've located a reliable secondary source that refers to this primary source document.

::::2. Reliable secondary sources WP:RS analyze, evaluate, interpret or synthesize primary sources. Certain editors have mentioned that a reliable secondary source that refers to and discusses the primary source document would increase it's reliability in context, since it shows the primary source document is circulated and discussed, further strengthening it's legitimacy. That's what mariedenazareth.com does, as it is a very popular and respected French Catholic website.

::::3. There are different levels of "reliability". I am not saying mariedenazareth.com is a reliable secondary source at the same level as academic journals or news outlets. But only adequately reliable for confirmation of Esquier's own words about her own lived experience. Note, there are other websites that discuss this as well, but it seems to me mariedenazareth.com is the most reliable one as it produces a lot of additional French Catholic content completely independent of this issue.

::::4. The ScamDoc ratings for both websites (88% for edifiant.fr and 95% for mariedenazareth.com), while not a definitive indication of reliability, shows they are secure, established, well-regarded in the community, and clearly not "scam" websites. So this dispels all arguments concerning these websites' legitimacy. "Anonymous website ownership" is not an argument, since privacy is a legitimate concern for many website operators.

::::5. None of the other claims certain editors have brought up to justify their no vote, involving WP:ABOUTSELF, WP:SPS, and WP:UGC hold any water. The primary document are Esquier's own words of her own lived experience. Speaking of her own experience satisfies WP:ABOUTSELF. The primary document is obviously not self-published, so WP:SPS does not apply. And information generated on both edifiant.fr as well as mariedenazareth.com are not user-generated content, so WP:UGC doesn't apply. Also, WP:DUE is met, as I'm proposing only one brief paragraph, which the article does not rely on in any way, but provides useful context and information by someone who is both credible and involved in these matters. The policies that are most applicable in this situation are WP:PRIMARY and WP:RS and both are adequately satisfied as discussed above. Arkenstrone (talk) 18:45, 29 April 2025 (UTC)

:::::We've read your argument before. At length. If you've still failed to convince anyone then it is probably, again, time to WP:DROPTHESTICK. Simonm223 (talk) 18:48, 29 April 2025 (UTC)

:::::These are just all the points you have raised before, and have failed to convince others editors. I suggest reading the advice at WP:1AM. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 18:50, 29 April 2025 (UTC)

::::::No. This is a summary of the clarified points all in one place (instead of separated into a dozen different incoherent threads) with additional information included because a secondary source was not previously located. None of these points have been refuted. Consensus or convincing others, is not a substitute for arguments based in Wikipedia policy. I've shown Wikipedia policy to be on my side, and I'm waiting for you or others to refute each point above with sound arguments grounded in Wikipedia policy. Also, citing essays as a substitute for Wikipedia policy is not very helpful. Arkenstrone (talk) 20:00, 29 April 2025 (UTC)

:::::::I'll leave it to whoever closes the RFC to decide on policy interpretation. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 20:06, 29 April 2025 (UTC)

::::::::{{tq|If you want to put forward an argument based on your reading of Wikipedia's policies I'll happily discuss it with you...}}

::::::::I just did, citing several Wikipedia policies, but now you are refusing to discuss. This forum is a form of court, subject to Wikipedia policy. Also, I repeat, consensus is not a substitute for sound arguments grounded in Wikipedia policy. That's like two wolves and a lamb voting on what's for dinner. Arkenstrone (talk) 21:05, 29 April 2025 (UTC)

::I've unhatted that section. If you want to hat that section, then you're going to have to explain why those points are {{tq|a complete misunderstanding of Wikipedia policies}}. Or, at the very least, rebut my summary of the most pertinent points above. I've reviewed those arguments and they appear sound arguments grounded in Wikipedia policy. If you don't agree, then explain why. Arkenstrone (talk) 21:16, 29 April 2025 (UTC)

:::Grok's output is ludicrous. To determine credibility, Grok cites {{xt|"trust rating"}} scores from [https://www.scamdoc.com/ ScamDoc], a site that says it {{xt|"uses artificial intelligence to classify websites and emails"}} with a [https://info.scamdoc.com/guide/presentation/ goal] of {{xt|"helping users make an informed decision before conducting a transaction or sharing personal information"}}. ScamDoc's [https://info.scamdoc.com/guide/scoring/ scoring criteria] include whether the domain uses HTTPS and domain privacy, and [https://info.scamdoc.com/guide/scoring/online-reviews/ whether user reviews report] that the business behind the website is responsible for {{xt|"undelivered products, significant delivery delays, unsolicited subscriptions, use of drop shipping"}}. All of this is completely unrelated to whether a website is a reliable source of information for citation in Wikipedia articles.{{pb}}The Grok output is so irrelevant to Wikipedia that I agree with ActivelyDisinterested (who previously collapsed Grok's output) and Simonm223 in that the AI output should remain collapsed. At this point, the current consensus in this discussion is to keep the AI output in a collapsed state, so I have collapsed it again. Using AI-generated arguments in talk page discussions is disruptive as it is disrespectful of other editors' time, considering the lack of effort it takes to generate the output compared to the amount of effort it takes to review it, so please do not do this again. {{bcc|Arkenstrone}}— Newslinger talk 13:19, 3 May 2025 (UTC)

There was a previous discussion of this source here in 2021. At WP:VG (Here and here)

Use of source: This source is used on over 7,000 articles (per [https://xtools.wmcloud.org/pageinfo/en.wikipedia.org/Screen%20Rant#general-stats WmCloud]). This ranges from media and pop culture (comic books, video games, film, music, television, etc.) and is cited clearly popular and important seen articles like Quentin Tarantino, Malcolm X and Kylie Minogue.

Why is it relevant? There was a discussion at WP:FILM (within the past year, and for clarification, started by myself) which took take a deeper look at the content of it and other sites owned by it and ValNet. The conclusion of the discussion led to the creation of WP:RSP/VALNET suggesting we limit the content used by these sites to reviews clearly labeled as reviews and direct interviews, as the sites were shown to have poorly researched historical articles on film, attributing material to social media sites (reddit, letterboxd, etc.), and when used by others, it was in terms of interviews conducted by the site itself and direct reviews of films. While editors have brought up that the reading should have only been used for screen rant material after the ValNet purchase, this was only done after the discussion was agreed upon by other editors and no editor or material has been shown to suggest it was ever following its own policy. I bring this up, as the last big application by WP:FILM does not coincide that the site is reliable for for entertainment subjects as it stated at WP:RSP.

{{User:ClueBot III/DoNotArchiveUntil|1748631668}}

{{rfc|media|rfcid=B6CA11B}}

RFC: What should [https://screenrant.com/ Screenrant.com] be designated as?

• Option 1: Generally reliable
• Option 2: Additional considerations
• Option 3: Generally unreliable
• Option 4: Deprecate

Andrzejbanas (talk) 17:51, 25 April 2025 (UTC)

• Option 2. This is one I've gone back and forth on, but I think the status quo at WP:RSP and WP:VALNET is reasonable for Screen Rant under Valnet (2015–present). It's acceptable for basic pop culture facts but is not "high quality" as defined by WP:FACR. It should not be used for claims outside of pop culture, and it should be immediately removed from BLP claims per WP:BLPSOURCE. It also should not be used as evidence of notability or to indicate that something is WP:DUE in an article. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 🛸 18:44, 25 April 2025 (UTC)
• Option 1, at least for modern pop-culture stuff. Of course, some of its articles are of little use (articles focused purely on plot, random "best of" lists, etc), but it's up to the Wikipedia writer to separate the wheat from the chaff. But those problematic articles are only a problem because of their format, not their actual content. Making things up, repeating conspiracy theories, attacking people, and the usual stuff that would lead to consider a site unreliable as a whole, do not apply to Screenrant. I have not worked with historical film articles, but the main focus of the page seems to be on modern pop culture anyway. Cambalachero (talk) 18:51, 25 April 2025 (UTC)
• :Comment: Just to clarify, they definitely write about material related to historical content such as [https://screenrant.com/search/?q=John+Wayne 12 articles related to John Wayne in the past month]. Not to mention the articles I mentioned, they are obviously used in articles about real people. I'd be happy to point out basic errors, but I think this requires more clarification on what you mean by being acceptable for "basic pop culture stuff" perhaps with some examples. Andrzejbanas (talk) 19:35, 25 April 2025 (UTC)
• Option 2. Could be reliable for direct quotations from interviews, but should not be used in BLPs or counted towards notability. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 02:30, 26 April 2025 (UTC)
• Option 2 {{sbb}} I agree mostly with Thebiguglyalien above. Per WP:VALNET their properties are considered borderline - and that should continue for this specific property unless there is specific evidence that it is not subject to the same control as the other properties they own. It is obviously not a high quality source for FAC purposes, but it should not be problematic to source uncontroversial information to it - in fact, it may be the best source for some of the uncontroversial information it includes. I do think it should be limited to sourcing entertainment (film/video gaming) related content, and should not be used to source anything remotely controversial about BLPs. And as always, with less-than-ideal sources, if there is better sourcing available, it should be preferred.{{pb}}But I disagree with the OP here about how we determine the reliability of a source. Specifically, User:Andrzejbanas seems to claim that if Screen Rant uses, say, Reddit to get leads on information, it is inherently unreliable. That's not how reliable sources work. A reliable source can certainly get its information from unreliable sources. The question we must ask here is what the "reliable source" (that got its information from an unreliable source) did to verify the information it got. If we prohibited all information that has any origin on social media from being here, we'd have no reliable sources whatsoever. Even the most reliable sources like the New York Times get some of their leads from social media, for example. And no evidence has been presented that I can see that Screen Rant doesn't attempt to verify (or at least qualify as from social media) the information it gets.{{pb}}Lastly, the discussion on WP:FILM isn't actually linked. I spent about 5 minutes trying to find it in the archives (searching on WT:FILM for "Screen Rant" and "screenrant" to try to find it) and I couldn't find it. I would appreciate if that discussion itself could be directly linked since it's being used to justify this discussion here - and if it can be linked here I'd appreciate a ping so I can review it fully and revisit this comment if necessary. But as of right now, I see no reason to move it from "borderline" or "more considerations needed". -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 02:34, 26 April 2025 (UTC)
• :To clarify, {{ping|Berchanhimez}} the use of social media is tricky. Using to consider "reception" would be weak. The discussion and my points made are still on the main talk page of WP:FILM. You can see them here. I've provided several sources from ValNet sites discussing how they misrepresent their sources, contradict themselves in their own articles, and such. Andrzejbanas (talk) 02:39, 26 April 2025 (UTC)
• ::That explains why I couldn't find it in the history - when you said "within the past year" I assumed that meant within the past year (and also not currently on the page). My fault. Perusing that discussion, I would be okay with adding a qualification based on [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Film#c-Andrzejbanas-20250220140200-Valnet,_Collider,_and_MovieWeb this comment] you made. Specifically that they are of "questionable reliability" and that they may operate as "content farms". I do, however, still take issue with your attempt to "dig deep". We don't question our sources on their sources. If they verify the reliability of the information they include from, say, Reddit (or other social media), then that's their right. Our concern is their editorial processes as a whole - not where they get information (or leads). -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 02:44, 26 April 2025 (UTC)
• :::Apologies, I just couldn't remember if the conversation stated earlier this year, or later last year. (is it nearly May already?) While I understand that other sources could be questioned, I have yet to see the same situations on the ValNet pages and while it could be addressed, things like Variety seem to pass the WP:USEDBYOTHERS regularly in academic journals and published books and other news agencies. When trying to find it for sites like screen rant, I only found them used by others in a serious manner I'd they may have some exclusive interviews. Andrzejbanas (talk) 03:26, 26 April 2025 (UTC)

:Option 1 - I actually think what's currently on the Reliable sources list is a good spot for it to be. There is consensus that Screen Rant is a marginally reliable source. It is considered reliable for entertainment-related topics, but should not be used for controversial statements related to living persons. ^🥑GUACPOCALYPSE^🥑 22:45, 28 April 2025 (UTC)

::Could you clarify? The current listing would be option 2, as it has additional considerations about the source and directly mentions that it's a marginal. Option 1 would be that it is reliable for controversial statements about living people etc. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 11:56, 1 May 2025 (UTC)

• Option 3-4 It's churnalism and we should not be depending on it. Simonm223 (talk) 12:40, 30 April 2025 (UTC)
• :Especially as Screen Rant, in particular is known to use "AI" automated text generators for their churn of pop-culture articles. For a recent example: [https://screenrant.com/wednesday-season-2-anthony-michael-hall-cast/] was at least partially drafted with AI as confirmed both by human senses and validated by multiple Chat GPT checking programs. Simonm223 (talk) 12:46, 30 April 2025 (UTC)
• Option 3 per User:Simonm223. I don't think it is quite at the level of being worthy of deprecation, but I started a discussion about one of its sites a year back here, and these sites absolutely qualify as churnalism. At best, Option 2 in line with dubious but still relatively innocuous online tabloids (cf. WP:DEXERTO). JeffSpaceman (talk) 16:31, 30 April 2025 (UTC)

One editor on NewsBreak [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=NewsBreak&diff=prev&oldid=1287597893 claims] that a library blog is not sufficient to define a company as a purveyor of Pink-slime journalism. Another editor says that it is a fine source and that the claim is correct based on the [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=NewsBreak&diff=prev&oldid=1287597893 definition of pink-slime journalism].

[https://www.library.pima.gov/blogs/post/a-particular-kind-of-disinformation-pink-slime-journalism/ The post is] "written by members of the Library's Information Integrity Team, is part of a series that covers disinformation and other related subjects. The goal is to help create a well-informed citizenry of active participants who shape our world." i know you're a dog (talk) 18:20, 27 April 2025 (UTC)

:I have also requested a 3O https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Third_opinion#Active_disagreements i know you're a dog (talk) 22:54, 28 April 2025 (UTC)

:I think this is an appropriate source because the authors, librarians who specialize in information integrity, can be considered experts with a sufficiently relevant expertise related to the claim. Monk of Monk Hall (talk) 14:08, 30 April 2025 (UTC)

:Its an SPS, no it is not reliable for such an accusation. Slatersteven (talk) 14:10, 30 April 2025 (UTC)

::It’s not a SPS just because it’s a blog. i know you're a dog (talk) 16:24, 30 April 2025 (UTC)

::::Blogs are SPS as they are written and edited by the same person, or persons. In this case the library staff. Slatersteven (talk) 16:33, 30 April 2025 (UTC)

:::::What are you even talking about? This is not a "blog" in the sense of "I go to wordpress.com and start a site and post whatever I want on it", and it is certainly not a self-published source in any sense (it is published by the public library on its website). WP:SPS sheds no light whatsoever on whether an informational article written by members of the Pima County Public Library's Information Integrity Team and published on the PCPL website is a reliable source. 128.164.177.55 (talk) 16:41, 30 April 2025 (UTC)

::::::LOL, so (hold on?) its not an SPS because it is written by the staff of the library, and published by them on... their website? Slatersteven (talk) 16:44, 30 April 2025 (UTC)

:::::::Yes indeed "the library" is not the same entity as "its employees". Can you personally publish your opinions on your employer's website? Does your employer have named groups like "Information Integrity Team" whose work is not overseen by anyone? This website is a "blog" in precisely the same way WP:NEWSBLOGs are "blogs", which is to say, not in any way relevant to self-published status or reliability. (Whether it is a reliable source or not for this purpose is a question that requires an analysis carried out in a competent way, not whatever it is you're doing here.) 128.164.177.55 (talk) 17:20, 30 April 2025 (UTC)

::::::::Agreed. I addressed this in depth on the talk page, but will paste it here for posterity:

::::::::WP:BLOG is about self published sources, not blogs in general. In addition, it reads {{tq| Self-published expert sources may be considered reliable when produced by an established subject-matter expert, whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable, independent publications.}}

::::::::Furthermore, (and I can't believe I have to defend libraries and librarians, but here we are) librarians who work on an information integrity team certainly meet the bar for experts. There is no inherent reason to expect that they are biased, and librarians are often tasked with research in order to present information fairly and accurately. Librarians are a critical asset for academics and they work hand in hand when conducting research. The Pima County Library appears to [https://www.library.pima.gov/blogs/post/were-hiring-a-librarian-i-system-wide/ require] a masters in library science for even their entry level positions (as is common in the [https://online.arizona.edu/news/do-you-need-masters-work-library-librarian-career-guide vast majority of libraries today].)

::::::::Moreover:

:::::::::* This specific post is referenced by [https://www.snopes.com/news/2024/12/23/kay-granger-memory-care-texas/ Snopes], which is GREL.

:::::::::*This post is [https://whyjournalismmatters.substack.com/i/160214114/beware-the-news-fakery-of-pink-slime-journalism also linked to by Ted Sullivan], [https://substack.com/@wjmfrenchlanguage who says] he is a " Retired senior lecturer in Journalism at University of Northampton". That claim can be [https://www.northampton.ac.uk/news/church-scandal-expose-to-be-screened-at-waterside-campus/ verified] by the [https://www.northampton.ac.uk/news/in-the-news-20-26-march-2020/ university] [https://www.northampton.ac.uk/news/uon-in-the-news-4-10-october/ where he worked], [https://pressgazette.co.uk/comment-analysis/going-viral-how-worlds-press-is-responding-to-the-coronavirus-pandemic/ as well as] [https://www.democraticaudit.com/2019/10/03/press-freedom-is-necessary-to-advance-environmental-protections-across-the-globe/ two different] newspapers.

::::::::* And other posts from the library's blog are linked to by:

:::::::::* [https://www.discovermagazine.com/planet-earth/no-egyptian-artifacts-were-never-found-in-the-grand-canyon Discover Magazine]

:::::::::* [https://home.howstuffworks.com/home-improvement/heating-and-cooling/swamp-cooler.htm How Stuff Works]

::::::::As well as used as a source for:

:::::::::* John Dillinger

:::::::::* [https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotch_bonnet Scotch Bonnet] (es.wikipedia)

::::::::Needless to say, WP:BLOG doesn't apply here. i know you're a dog (talk) 17:47, 30 April 2025 (UTC)

:::::::::Well as disagree as it is a self-published blog (it says its a blog). But in order to avoid wp:bludgeon, this is my last comment with a firm "No". Slatersteven (talk) 09:42, 2 May 2025 (UTC)

::::::::::Oh good I thought you might want to engage with the clear demonstration of your error, just plain last-wordism is better. 100.36.106.199 (talk) 10:54, 2 May 2025 (UTC)

:Two more sources have been identified since I posted this:

:[https://web.archive.org/web/20250416004947/https://www.niemanlab.org/2024/08/ai-reporters-are-covering-events-in-northwest-arkansas-for-okaynwa/ Nieman Lab]

:[https://img1.wsimg.com/blobby/go/b34a84ed-8952-4efc-b51d-926d489be2dc/downloads/PF%20Georgia%20Media%20Landscape%20Report-final.pdf?ver=1698269662836 The pivot fund for the Georgia news collaborative] i know you're a dog (talk) 16:29, 30 April 2025 (UTC)

::These three sources are all fine; the two new ones probably better than the original. 128.164.177.55 (talk) 17:29, 30 April 2025 (UTC)

::If agree with 128.164.. these seem much stronger sources than the original one. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 11:49, 1 May 2025 (UTC)

• The issue here isn’t SPS but DUE WEIGHT. How much weight should we give to the opinion of a county library’s staff? Blueboar (talk) 13:17, 2 May 2025 (UTC)
• :Unless it's in respect to the county it's serves I would say none, but it's a discussion for the article's talk page. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 16:03, 2 May 2025 (UTC)
• ::Why do you say that? Can’t librarians be expert in subjects that have implications outside their county? i know you're a dog 18:07, 2 May 2025 (UTC)
• :The facts are established by Reuters, along with other RS. The issue is the use of the phrase, which at the time was only sourced to the library. i know you're a dog 18:01, 2 May 2025 (UTC)

:*So use the actual RSs and don't use the SPS from the library. Seems like a simple solution here. Niteshift36 (talk) 15:15, 8 May 2025 (UTC)

Lately, I have seen a lot of AfD discussions on Indian listed companies where analyst reports are used as credible/reliable sources. I think it’s time we take another look at the WP:LISTED guidelines, especially when it comes to these types of reports. From my experience during the Senco Gold AfD, I realized that many of these analyst reports aren’t truly independent. They are often made for internal use by portfolio management firms that already own shares in the company. Sometimes, they even push a specific story like hyping up a company before an IPO. If we closely look at the fine print of these reports, especially the disclaimers, the firms publishing them clearly mention {{tq|potential or material conflicts of interest}}. They also state that {{tq|they or their associates may have received compensation from the companies covered in the report within the last twelve months}}. We should be a bit more skeptical about these reports and think carefully before using them to decide if an article is notable.

: I have seen this come up in two AfDs where I shared my thoughts - Apar Industries and IdeaForge.

Charlie (talk) 17:37, 30 April 2025 (UTC)

:WP:ORGIND seems to already speak to this issue. - Amigao (talk) 14:14, 1 May 2025 (UTC)

::If these analyst reports are seen as trade publications under ORGIND, and given that their authors have close ties to the subject companies, either directly or indirectly then many Indian AfDs ought to be deemed entirely invalid. It is now clear that the rules related to LISTED have been wrongly assumed. Charlie (talk) 08:40, 2 May 2025 (UTC)

:::Such "analyst" reports are clearly not WP:IS. - Amigao (talk) 15:31, 3 May 2025 (UTC)

::::That makes things quite clear on my end. Thank you. Charlie (talk) 05:26, 6 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::As I have pointed out at the Thermax AfD, you should refer to the "Disclosure" section of the report to assess independence in the context of that specific report, rather than the "Disclaimer" section, which is intentionally worded in a generic manner in accordance with SEBI guidelines for all registered analysts. Yuvaank (talk) 12:10, 10 May 2025 (UTC)

::::::@Yuvaank I understand your point, and I have noticed it myself; the disclosure and disclaimer often contradict each other and sit uneasily within the same document. While {{tq|disclosures suggest an absence of bias}}, while {{tq|disclaimers imply that bias might exist but is being acknowledged to avoid responsibility or legal consequences}}. This tension between the two can appear contradictory when assessing the report's independence. I recognise that SEBI likely has valid regulatory reasons for requiring both, but the mixed messaging does raise questions. Charlie (talk) 12:26, 10 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::::Honestly, there is no question (in my mind, at least). Analyst reports should not be dismissed solely because they contain a boilerplate "Disclaimer" with generic wording. Any actual conflict of interest pertaining to that specific company or report will be mentioned in the "Disclosure" section, which is what should be used to assess that report's independence. As SEBI has pretty stringent disclosure requirements, analyst reports tend to have a much higher level of integrity than WP:RSNOI media sources that publish paid puff pieces without disclosing. Yuvaank (talk) 12:43, 10 May 2025 (UTC)

::::::::Let's explore this a little bit deeper by examining the analysts' reports discussed at the Thermax AfD;

::::::::1. [https://www.hdfcsec.com/hsl.research.pdf/HSL_Initiating%20Coverage%20Thermax%20-%20March%202023.pdf HDFC Securities],

::::::::2. [https://images.assettype.com/bloombergquint/2024-02/21a01fc3-117b-4d0f-b0ec-42d29330fd2a/Yes_Securities_Thermax_Q3_FY24_Results_Review.pdf YES Securities]

::::::::3. [https://www.plindia.com/ResReport/TMX-7-2-25-PL.pdf PL Capital].

::::::::Despite the analyst's personal independence (as declared in disclosure), each firm's prior or potential financial ties to the subject companies introduce {{tq|a possible institutional conflict}}. Moreover, in all three reports, the disclaimer introduces {{tq|a potential conflict at the associate level}}, which is not explicitly addressed in the disclosure. Here, associates are essentially different arms of the firm, such as investment banking, asset management, or advisory services—like those within the HDFC Group e.g., HDFC Bank, HDFC Mutual Fund, etc.. In the case of YES Securities, this could include YES Bank and other related entities. So, you see those boilerplate disclaimers are there for a reason, this is an ecosystem where such analyst reports are often prepared for internal use within portfolio management services. Even if the firms themselves don’t hold positions, their associates typically do often holding shares in the subject companies or promoting a particular narrative, especially around upcoming IPOs or stock market buy/sell activity. Charlie (talk) 13:12, 10 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::::::Also, SEBI’s guidelines for disclosures and disclaimers in analyst reports are strict and appropriate for regulatory purposes, given their role as market regulators. However, this does not mean such reports automatically meet Wikipedia’s standards of independence for the subject company especially in cases involving {{tq|cross-holdings through associates}}, or any similar arrangements. Charlie (talk) 13:27, 10 May 2025 (UTC)

::::::::::Maybe we can come to some sort of compromise? Maybe while we do not outright dismiss these report as not independent their reliability as a WP:ORGCRITE source is weakened and therefore should see if there a better sources for the subject first?

::::::::::Will need more views on this. I will ping @HighKing as this user is much more experienced in WP:NCORP AFD than I am. Imcdc Contact 03:32, 11 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::::::::Hi {{u|Imcdc}}, {{u|CharlieMehta}}, WP:LISTED suggests some examples of where to find references which meet the criteria for establishing notability, but WP:LISTED doesn't say analyst report are de facto acceptable by their very nature - all sources should be read in conjuntion with WP:ORGIND. There is a tremenduous variety of sources classed as "analyst reports" and not all meet NCORP criteria. All sources should be read in conjunction with WP:ORGIND which states that not only must the author/publisher be independent (i.e. not have a commercial relationship whether it is direct or indirect) but that the content must also be independent (i.e. not relying entirely on content provided by the company, but must also include "original and independent opinion, analysis, investigation, and fact checking" *about the company* "that are clearly attributable to a source unaffiliated to the subject".) With that in mind, it is usually a simple matter to see that some sources (classed as analyst reports) simply report on stock movements or financial reporting with nothing that can be classed an opinion/fact checking/analysis/investigation about the company. Others produce a profile with information copied from the company website or from a financial report. For me, "analyst reports" produced by a lot of companies are more like directory entries with a company profile that you can find on the company website. Unless I can see that the analyst provides some original throughts, for example the analyst compares the company to others, or positions the company within an overall sector based on particular activities (not just a bland revenue-generation table which is gleaned from company-produced financials), I am sceptical. HighKing⁺⁺ 14:58, 11 May 2025 (UTC)

{{User:ClueBot III/DoNotArchiveUntil|1749146475}}

{{rfc|media|rfcid=E56F219}}

Regarding the reliability of the Washington Free Beacon. Previous discussions from [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_227#Washington_Free_Beacon 2017] and [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_291#Using_The_Washington_Free_Beacon_in_politically_related_BLPs_-_is_it_an_RS? 2020]. Discussion that led to creation of this RFC is [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#Washington_Free_Beacon here]. Marquardtika (talk) 17:01, 1 May 2025 (UTC)

Question #1 What is the reliability of the Washington Free Beacon during the editorship of Matthew Continetti (2012–2018)?

• Option 1: Generally reliable
• Option 2: Additional considerations
• Option 3: Generally unreliable
• Option 4: Generally unreliable, with deprecation

Question #2 What is the reliability of the Washington Free Beacon during the editorship of Eliana Johnson (2019–present)?

• Option 1: Generally reliable
• Option 2: Additional considerations
• Option 3: Generally unreliable
• Option 4: Generally unreliable, with deprecation

• Generally unreliable - the previous editor was a salacious political firebrand, and the paper regularly did BLP vios and false statements, as per RFCBEFORE. It appears to have reformed, but any article during previous EIC should be taken with a grain of salt, and other sourcing is generally preferrable. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 18:51, 1 May 2025 (UTC)
• :@Alaexis and others, see previous RFCBEFORE.
• :{{cot|some of the undue/unreliable stuff from RFC Before, and other things i scrounged up}}
• :Zialater made these points about 6 years ago based on searching, i assume, snopes [https://www.snopes.com/search/?q=washington%20free%20beacon#gsc.tab=0&gsc.q=washington%20free%20beacon&gsc.page=1]
• :* [https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/ilhan-omar-fundraisers-groups/] claim ilhan omar funded groups tied to terror
• :* [https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/ilhan-omar-fundraisers-groups/] claim that europe was gonna label "jewish-made" products
• :* [https://www.thedailybeast.com/dear-conservative-media-do-some-more-damn-reporting/] reduced reliability in wake of trump election
• :other stuff that is unreliable or undue
• :* [https://freebeacon.com/national-security/no-birth-certificate-required/] some [https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2012/may/08/national-right-life-committee/obama-white-house-security-unborn-babies/ 2012 conspiracy] amplified by free beacon
• :* [https://freebeacon.com/blog/the-obama-bird-genocide-is-out-of-control/] an opinion piece about windmills and weaponization of solar farms causing a "bird genocide"
• :* [https://freebeacon.com/issues/cia-dedicated-program-recruit-transgender/] cia's dei program is dedicated to recruiting transgender folks
• :* [https://freebeacon.com/blog/elysium-is-actually-an-anti-obamacare-parable/] some tortured analogy about obamacare death panels and a scifi show

{{cob}} Bluethricecreamman (talk) 01:07, 5 May 2025 (UTC)

• Marginally reliable - I would place the reliability of the more advocacy/tabloid era of the Free Beacon in the same bucket as WP:MEDIAMATTERS. Marquardtika (talk) 19:23, 1 May 2025 (UTC)

• Reliability depends on context - in this era it qualifies as an advocacy outlet, usable with in-text attribution. But not reliable for verifying unattributed statements of fact written in “wikivoice”. Blueboar (talk) 20:37, 1 May 2025 (UTC)

• Generally unreliable per current rating, do not use for politics or BLPs. Trashy advocacy source given to gossip. Absolutely not a source we should be using - David Gerard (talk) 08:33, 2 May 2025 (UTC)

• Generally reliable I do think that the WFB was more ideological during Continetti's tenure, that being said, it still engaged in original reporting and several of the things it reported on were picked up by more mainstream outlets. Like other ideologically driven outlets such as Mother Jones, its reliability depends on the type of content being cited. For original reporting and routine coverage, it meets the standard of verifiability. Gjb0zWxOb (talk) 18:18, 2 May 2025 (UTC)

• Marginally reliable - There was certainly clear bias, especially in this era, but not of a nature that it ought to lead to differing treatment than myriad other sources with clear ideological slants. Obviously, how the content should be treated depends on the context, but that's always the case with anything we do here. CoffeeCrumbs (talk) 08:12, 3 May 2025 (UTC)

• Marginally reliable - no examples of uncorrected falsehoods have been presented. Open to downgrading my !vote. Alaexis_¿question? 19:55, 4 May 2025 (UTC)

:: Striking out my vote after having reviewed examples provided by u:Bluethricecreamman. While they are not unambiguously bad ([https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/ilhan-omar-fundraisers-groups/ here], the False verdict hinges on the assertion that IR USA and IRW are distinct), they seemed to publish less potentially useful pieces during this period. Alaexis_¿question? 06:09, 5 May 2025 (UTC)

• Generally unreliable The way that this outlet selects stories is so enmeshed with their political opinion that it is functionally impossible to separate opinion from news with this source. The opinion of a political extremist media outlet is generally unlikely to be due inclusion in articles. Simply put this is not a source we should use. Simonm223 (talk) 15:07, 5 May 2025 (UTC)

• Generally unreliable Openly and repeatedly published outright falsehoods and misinformation for political purposes. Among the worst of the several right wing outlets that did so over the past decade, openly promoting conspiracy theories as facts. Silverseren^C 15:10, 5 May 2025 (UTC)

• Generally reliable Attribution is a good opition in general either way. But there is a basis for WP:USEDBYOTHERS. Ramos1990 (talk) 17:30, 5 May 2025 (UTC)
• Generally unreliable. Coverage just doesn't support the idea that they have a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. See eg. the coverage of its flat misinformation about Truthy.{{cite web|first1=David|last1=Uberti|accessdate=2025-05-06|title=How misinformation goes viral: a Truthy story|url=https://www.cjr.org/behind_the_news/how_misinformation_goes_viral.php|website=Columbia Journalism Review}}{{cite news|first1=Henry|last1=Farrell|accessdate=2025-05-06|title=No, the National Science Foundation is not building an Orwellian surveillance nightmare|url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2014/10/22/no-the-national-science-foundation-is-not-building-an-orwellian-surveillance-nightmare/|newspaper=The Washington Post|date=22 October 2014|issn=0190-8286|via=www.washingtonpost.com}} Other sources, like {{cite journal|first1=Craig|last1=Silverman|title=Lies, Damn Lies and Viral Content|url=https://academiccommons.columbia.edu/doi/10.7916/D8Q81RHH|date=2015|doi=10.7916/D8Q81RHH|journal=Tow Center for Digital Journalism}}, document its place in the misinformation ecosystem, describing how it originated a misleading and unverified claim, stating it as fact. This is not how one would expect coverage to describe a reliable source. --Aquillion (talk) 04:25, 6 May 2025 (UTC)

• Additional considerations for BLP, generally reliable but dueness always matter - the most salacious info on BLP topics should still be corroborated by other news sources before being put on wikipedia, otherwise it's likely undue. seems reliable as is, might have some bias like any other outlet so always weight dueness. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 18:50, 1 May 2025 (UTC)
• :Newslinger, HaeB, and Astaire made me want to refine my vote.
• :* In general: Additional considerations, For investigative/original reports: Additional considerations for BLP, generally reliable but dueness always matter, Other: proceed with extreme caution, likely extremely unreliable or undue Bluethricecreamman (talk) 16:52, 2 May 2025 (UTC)
• Generally reliable - In the Eliana Johnson era, they have broken several high-profile stories via original reporting that have seen notable WP:USEBYOTHERS. See [https://www.washingtonpost.com/style/media/2024/01/04/free-beacon-harvard-claudine-gay/ The Washington Post], [https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/22/nyregion/columbia-deans-antisemitism-panel.html The New York Times], [https://www.axios.com/2024/08/08/columbia-deans-texts-antisemitism-resignation Axios], and [https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2023/11/25/aaron-sibarium-conservative-media-00117899 Politico], for example. Aaron Sibarium is a legitimate journalist. See [https://www.businessinsider.com/gen-z-reporter-aaron-sibarium-harvard-president-claudine-gay-plagiarism-2024-1 Business Insider]. Marquardtika (talk) 19:23, 1 May 2025 (UTC)
• Generally reliable with Eliana Johnson as editor-in-chief, with various original and credible scoops having been used by other reliable outlets. - Amigao (talk) 20:22, 1 May 2025 (UTC)
• Generally Reliable in this era. Blueboar (talk) 20:40, 1 May 2025 (UTC)
• I have a hard time considering the Washington Free Beacon generally reliable when [https://freebeacon.com/ its current home page] has a prominent section titled {{xt|"Enemies of Freedom"}} that lists exclusively members of the US Democratic Party, and [https://freebeacon.com/enemies-of-freedom/enemy-of-freedom-barack-obama/ the section's entry] {{small|([http://archive.today/2025.05.02-031249/https://freebeacon.com/enemies-of-freedom/enemy-of-freedom-barack-obama/ archive link], [https://web.archive.org/web/20250502031327/https://freebeacon.com/enemies-of-freedom/enemy-of-freedom-barack-obama/ archive link 2])}} on Barack Obama repeats the conspiracy theory that Obama is a {{!xt|"secret Muslim"}}. Another questionable article linked from the Free Beacon{{'s}} home page is [https://freebeacon.com/media/fact-check-eugene-daniels-says-journalists-care-deeply-about-accuracy-and-are-not-the-opposition/ "FACT CHECK: Eugene Daniels Says Journalists 'Care Deeply About Accuracy' and 'Are Not the Opposition'"], which is a mislabeled opinion piece with the statement {{xt|"If Daniels meant to imply that journalists are currently not behaving like an opposition party under President Trump, then of course that is false"}}, instead of an actual fact check. The Free Beacon{{'s}} reliability falls somewhere between {{rspe|The Daily Beast|The Daily Beast|nc}} and {{rspe|The Daily Caller|The Daily Caller|d}}. — Newslinger talk 05:37, 2 May 2025 (UTC)
• :I had a look at that Obama article - this is obviously an opinion piece (as evident form the section title alone) that is very polemical and not a suitable reference, but is that "occupation" seriously an endorsement of this conspiracy theory, or rather tongue-in-cheek snark? Has the publication made serious claims elsewhere - in a non-opinion article - that Obama practices Islam? (Can't find anything in a quick search [https://freebeacon.com/?s=Obama+Muslim], but haven't looked thoroughly.) Regards, HaeB (talk) 16:49, 2 May 2025 (UTC)
• ::I am almost certain the "secret Muslim" thing is intended as a joke, given the piece's tone and the fact the website still maintains an active "satire" section [https://freebeacon.com/tag/satire/]. Astaire (talk) 18:58, 2 May 2025 (UTC)
• :::Yes, the satire section seems to be along the lines of the Babylon Bee. Obviously unreliable and unusable, but also easily identifiable and clearly distinct from their original news reporting. Marquardtika (talk) 20:08, 2 May 2025 (UTC)
• : Another portion of the Free Beacon{{'s}} [https://freebeacon.com/enemies-of-freedom/enemy-of-freedom-barack-obama/ "Enemies of Freedom" entry for Obama] claims, {{!xt|«"Born" in "Hawaii" in 1961, B. Hussein Obama moved with his mother at age six to Indonesia and ate dog meat»}}, with the words born and Hawaii in scare quotes. About a week ago, the Free Beacon published [https://freebeacon.com/democrats/why-democrats-should-hate-and-republican-should-love-barack-obama-the-foundational-maga-warrior/ an article] claiming {{!xt|"Obama was particularly aggrieved by Trump's relentless quest to uncover the truth about his birth certificate, a matter that has yet to be fully resolved"}}, with the word has in present tense. Both sentences echo Barack Obama citizenship conspiracy theories.{{pb}}Many of these problematic articles are not adequately labeled or tagged. Although the Free Beacon has a [https://freebeacon.com/satire/ "Satire" section] and an [https://freebeacon.com/arts-culture-opinion/ "Arts, Culture & Opinion" section], none of the articles I linked to are in these sections. Instead, the [https://freebeacon.com/media/fact-check-eugene-daniels-says-journalists-care-deeply-about-accuracy-and-are-not-the-opposition/ faux fact check] was placed in the [https://freebeacon.com/media/ "Media" section] and the [https://freebeacon.com/democrats/why-democrats-should-hate-and-republican-should-love-barack-obama-the-foundational-maga-warrior/ latter article about Obama] was placed in the [https://freebeacon.com/democrats/ "Democrats" section]. One of the authors, [https://freebeacon.com/author/andrew-stiles/ Andrew Stiles], is described by the Free Beacon as {{xt|"senior writer at the Washington Free Beacon"}} with no disclaimer regarding the veracity of his content. This lack of disclosure blurs the boundary between news content and polemic on the Free Beacon, and is an "additional consideration" regarding the website's general reliability. — Newslinger talk 07:59, 3 May 2025 (UTC)
• ::The "fact check" and the Obama article are both written by Stiles and part of the [https://freebeacon.com/stiles-section/ "Stiles Section"], which I specifically highlighted in my response as generally unreliable.
• ::There is precedent to upgrade or downgrade the reliability of a specific writer (e.g. upgrading Sibarium, downgrading Stiles) at WP:RSP - see the entries for Boing Boing, Jacobin, Der Spiegel, Quackwatch, and Hardcore Gaming 101. Astaire (talk) 16:52, 3 May 2025 (UTC)
• Generally unreliable, per Newslinger. It's not just a blaring advocacy source, it's a trashy blaring advocacy source. Should not be used for politics and really should not be used for BLPs. I wouldn't object to deprecate, frankly - David Gerard (talk) 08:32, 2 May 2025 (UTC)
• Option 1 for its investigative and original reporting (especially from Aaron Sibarium). Option 2 for editorialized or sensationalistic articles that lack original reporting. Option 3 for assorted tabloid nonsense.

:* Per BuzzFeed News, the Free Beacon is best described as {{tq|somewhere between a traditional news organization and a high-concept prank... Alternately parodic and wire-service serious, it has broken major political news, mostly negative, about Democrats like Hillary Clinton and Kamala Harris, and occasionally members of rival Republican factions, like Rand Paul}}. [https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/bensmith/eliana-johnson-free-beacon]

:* The Washington Post described the Free Beacon as {{tq|the rare conservative media outlet that does significant reporting of its own}} and said that it has an {{tq|unusual commitment to original reporting... The puckish Free Beacon has managed to dig up damaging stories on politicians — Republican as well as Democrat}} [https://www.washingtonpost.com/style/media/2024/01/04/free-beacon-harvard-claudine-gay/].

:* Politico called the Free Beacon {{tq|an online publication that is explicitly conservative and dedicated to “combat journalism,” but which is somewhat grudgingly respected in liberal circles}} [https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2023/11/25/aaron-sibarium-conservative-media-00117899], specifically praising Sibarium's work.

:* The Atlantic wrote that the Free Beacon has {{tq|produced some memorable political reporting over the years}} and suggested that it is a rare example of a right-wing outlet doing credible journalism [https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2020/01/dispatch-tries-sell-real-news-right/605860/].

:Under Johnson's tenure, the Free Beacon has broken multiple stories of significance that were later mentioned in WP:GREL sources (WP:USEBYOTHERS), such as:

:* Plagiarism allegations against the Harvard University president [https://freebeacon.com/campus/harvard-president-claudine-gay-hit-with-six-new-charges-of-plagiarism/] [https://www.economist.com/united-states/2024/01/03/the-decline-and-fall-of-harvards-president], after which she resigned.

:* Leaked text messages between Columbia University administrators [https://freebeacon.com/campus/columbia-administrators-fire-off-hostile-and-dismissive-text-messages-vomit-emojis-during-alumni-reunion-panel-on-jewish-life/] [https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/22/nyregion/columbia-deans-antisemitism-panel.html], after which they were placed on leave.

:* A hospital network using patients' race as a factor in rationing COVID-19 treatments [https://freebeacon.com/coronavirus/food-and-drug-administration-drives-racial-rationing-of-covid-drugs/] [https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/01/race-based-covid-rationing-ideology/621405/], after which this practice stopped.

:* A free speech uproar at Yale Law School [https://freebeacon.com/campus/a-yale-law-student-sent-a-lighthearted-email-inviting-classmates-to-his-trap-house-the-school-is-now-calling-him-to-account/] [https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/10/yale-law-diversity-bureaucrats-made-five-mistakes/620428/], after which the school's associate dean retired.

:* A controversial deposition from the Columbia University interim president [https://freebeacon.com/campus/columbia-universitys-armstrong-cant-recall/] [https://www.nytimes.com/2025/04/07/nyregion/columbia-president-armstrong-federal-deposition.html], after which she announced her departure.

:However, the Free Beacon's track record does not extend to tabloid silliness like [https://freebeacon.com/media/breaking-exclusive-cnns-brian-stelter-spotted-shoeless-and-disheveled-on-amtrak-train-leaving-dc-after-nerd-prom/ this recent story about a CNN reporter not wearing shoes on a train]. Articles like this, and the [https://freebeacon.com/media/fact-check-eugene-daniels-says-journalists-care-deeply-about-accuracy-and-are-not-the-opposition/ Eugene Daniels "FACT CHECK"] mentioned above, are written by Andrew Stiles and compiled under the website's [https://freebeacon.com/stiles-section/ "Stiles Section"], along with obvious satires like [https://freebeacon.com/newsletters/exclusive-we-got-joe-bidens-list-of-absurd-demands-for-speaking-gigs/ "Exclusive: We Got Joe Biden’s List of Absurd Demands for Speaking Gigs"]. This section is a grab bag of undue BLP material, opinion pieces, joke articles, etc. Not encyclopedic, but they are self-contained and easy to separate from the rest of the paper (just look for the byline). Astaire (talk) 09:07, 2 May 2025 (UTC)

• Generally reliable Under Johnson, the WFB improved in journalistic rigor and made many original reports that were widely used by various outlets (i.e. NYT, WP, etc.). Reporters such as Aaron Sibarium are professional reporters and his work has been validated through secondary coverage. The official editorial stance is conservative but the official stance of Mother Jones is liberal/progressive. The actual thing in question is the site's factual reliability. Gjb0zWxOb (talk) 18:18, 2 May 2025 (UTC)

• Generally reliable - The WFB has done plenty of legitimate reporting during this era, and I'm frankly a lot more confident about this as a reasonable source than Continetti. Of course, the fact that they house satire on the same site as news reporting means extra care should be taken on exactly what is being used from the site. CoffeeCrumbs (talk) 08:16, 3 May 2025 (UTC)

• Additional considerations (Marginally reliable): Generally reliable for investigative/original reporting per WP:USEBYOTHERS with Johnson as the new EIC. Conservative bias on politics. Satirical and pop culture articles generally unreliable. I'm seeing this one as a right-wing cross between a WP:DAILYBEAST and a WP:MEDIAMATTERS which are both WP:MREL. BBQboffin^{grill me} 20:44, 3 May 2025 (UTC)

• Comment/Question - is there a corrections policy/examples of the outlet issuing corrections or updates when needed? Currently I don't see anything that militates towards the current GUNREL designation, but given that there seems to be consensus that they do in fact print quality original journalism, I think looking at editorial behaviour should probably be the difference between an MREL or GREL outcome. Samuelshraga (talk) 07:44, 4 May 2025 (UTC)

::There are editor's notes such as [https://freebeacon.com/uncategorized/a-note-to-our-readers-on-the-departure-of-bill-gertz/ here] and [https://freebeacon.com/uncategorized/editors-note/ here]. Marquardtika (talk) 16:06, 5 May 2025 (UTC)

:::Thanks! The later note is more encouraging (that is the kind of behaviour that gives some confidence in the editorial processes). The earlier one, which affects question 1 more than question 2, raises some questions (what are the different editorial processes for "aggregated" news pieces as opposed to "original investigative" ones, and are these types of articles categorised separately in a way that is visible to the reader?). I see the above !vote says {{tq|Generally reliable for investigative/original reporting}} but less reliable for other things, and I'm wondering if the difference is always obvious.

:::Another question: Now that there are some more GUNREL !votes, I see a several that argue that the outlet pushes misinformation/conspiracy theories. Can we please have a link to articles from the Beacon that exemplify this? Samuelshraga (talk) 08:36, 6 May 2025 (UTC)

• Marginally reliable. On one hand there is a lot of stories they broke, on the other hand u:Newslinger's examples are concerning. I think that the distinction suggested by u:BBQBoffin makes sense (investigative/original reporting vs satire, pop culture and opinion-style pieces). Its use should be examined on a case-by-case basis, taking into account who wrote a given piece. If it's authored by someone who had produced high-quality content previously, that should be a positive signal. Alaexis_¿question? 19:55, 4 May 2025 (UTC)
• Significantly better than during the previous era, although not entirely sure whether its now Marginally or Generally reliable... But I think we're at least close to where we would need to be. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 01:20, 5 May 2025 (UTC)

• Don't like the choices. A related case started on 21 April is the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Charlie_Hebdo_shooting#Free_Beacon_cite Free Beacon cite] thread on the talk page thread of Charlie Hebdo shooting, participants = Peter Gulutzan, David Gerard, David O. Johnson, Gamebuster. David Gerard removed a cite of the Free Beacon and later mentioned "a broad general RFC" somewhere. I believe this edit should be overturned and more generally Free Beacon censorship should end. But I'm not enthusiastic about the the RfC's 4-way choices and their links. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 15:01, 5 May 2025 (UTC)

::Do you have a suggestion for a different option beyond the given choices? When I wrote the RFC I just copied the four main options that seem to be listed in other RFCs about source reliability. I thought they were the standard options. Am I missing something? Marquardtika (talk) 16:06, 5 May 2025 (UTC)

:::The [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#Renaming_%22Option_4%22_in_RfCs recently-changed] 4-way form pays attention to only the publication rather than the other things in WP:SOURCE; the links are to an essay-class page defining (changeably) what your !vote means, regardless what your comment is. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 18:15, 5 May 2025 (UTC)

• Generally unreliable My opinion about the outlet under its new management is unchanged from my opinion of them prior: The way that this outlet selects stories is so enmeshed with their political opinion that it is functionally impossible to separate opinion from news with this source. The opinion of a political extremist media outlet is generally unlikely to be due inclusion in articles. Simply put this is not a source we should use. Simonm223 (talk) 15:08, 5 May 2025 (UTC)

• Generally unreliable I don't see the claimed improvement in content by the publication. They still push the same conspiracy claims and misinformation, just perhaps slightly more subtly. The claims above of their breaking reporting picked up by others seems to entirely revolve around Claudine Gay and nothing else, which was itself a massive political furor. And therefore no need to use an already unreliable source like this because of that one instance. I see no point in using this source for anything. Any actual useful stories will inherently already be covered by better and more reliable sources. Silverseren^C 15:14, 5 May 2025 (UTC)
• :{{tq|The claims above of their breaking reporting picked up by others seems to entirely revolve around Claudine Gay and nothing else}} This is simply untrue. I gave five examples of WP:USEBYOTHERS for their investigative reporting (and there are others, omitted for brevity), only one of which was the Claudine Gay story.
• :{{tq|They still push the same conspiracy claims and misinformation, just perhaps slightly more subtly}} It would be helpful if you gave some examples of this in their news reporting. Astaire (talk) 14:48, 6 May 2025 (UTC)

• Generally reliable for investigative and original reporting. Tchouppy (talk) 17:15, 5 May 2025 (UTC)
• Generally reliable on comments on WP:USEDBYOTHERS. Ramos1990 (talk) 17:22, 5 May 2025 (UTC)
• I just want to confirm here, since there is a lot of focus on stories that they're breaking, that we're all aware that WP:RSBREAKING exists, right? Alpha3031 (t • c) 02:24, 6 May 2025 (UTC)
• Generally unreliable. No indication that their reputation has improved; if anything it has gotten worse, with sources overtly describing them as publishing misinformation - see eg. {{cite book|accessdate=2025-05-06|url=https://www.taylorfrancis.com/chapters/edit/10.4324/9781003171270-8/mis-disinformation-social-media-melissa-zimdars|chapter=Mis/Disinformation and Social Media|title=The Social Media Debate|first=Melissa|last=Zimdars|date=2022|quote=The right-wing media sphere is very interconnected, and websites tend to legitimize each other and circulate the same information across social media platforms. Websites like Breitbart, The Daily Caller, Washington Free Beacon, Campus Reform, Gateway Pundit, and many more are known entities for spreading unreliable junk.}}{{cite book|first1=Elaine|last1=Kamarck|first2=Darrell M.|last2=West|title=Lies that Kill: A Citizen's Guide to Disinformation|url=https://books.google.com/books?id=oOsBEQAAQBAJ|publisher=Brookings Institution Press|date=3 September 2024|isbn=978-0-8157-4073-5|via=Google Books|quote=One of the linchpins of disinformation networks is the multiple levels of the information ecosystem that try out particular attacks to see which one work before elevating them to sites with a wider readership. Rumors might start out on obscure bulletin boards such as Reddit or 4chan, but as they gain currency, they move up to conservative sites like Infowars, Breitbart, or the Daily Caller. If people read those articles, the information can get picked up by conservative newspapers like the Washington Examiner and the Washington Free Beacon. The most effective stories eventually are broadcast by mainstream media such as Fox News or other cable outlets.}}{{cite book|first1=Melissa|last1=Zimdars|first2=Kembrew|last2=Mcleod|title=Fake News: Understanding Media and Misinformation in the Digital Age|url=https://books.google.com/books?id=1WPMDwAAQBAJ|publisher=MIT Press|date=18 February 2020|isbn=978-0-262-35739-5|via=Google Books|quote=If you searched Google for information about potential collusion between Russia and Donald Trump in May 2017, the first results that appear are propagandistic, conspiracy-oriented, and unreliable websites like the Washington Free Beacon, Infowars, and the Daily Caller, respectively.}} Simply breaking stories isn't WP:USEBYOTHERS; simply doing "original reporting" doesn't make a source reliable. Any outlet can sometimes break a story. What matters is the context; whether secondary sources treat them as reliable. And high-quality sourcing absolutely does not - they're treated as producing a fountain of misinformation. Many of the stories they "broke" - especially surrounding are described by high-quality sources as full of distortions. Their coverage of Claudine Gay in particular has attracted serious academic criticism, eg.{{cite web|accessdate=2025-05-06|title=Claudine Gay, Plagiarism, and AI|url=https://www.aaup.org/JAF15/claudine-gay-plagiarism-and-ai|date=24 October 2024|website=AAUP|quote=Or at least that is what the bad faith efforts of Christopher Rufo and the Washington Free Beacon would have us believe. ... A more comprehensive review conducted for the Harvard Crimson by Rahem D. Hamid, Nia L. Orakwue, and Elias J. Schisgall (2023) demonstrates how Sibarium’s original reporting distorts the context somewhat.}} WP:RS isn't about effectiveness, it is about reputation. They plainly lack a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. --Aquillion (talk) 04:25, 6 May 2025 (UTC)
• :{{tq|Their coverage of Claudine Gay in particular has attracted serious academic criticism, eg.}} - huh? A "distorts the context somewhat" would be pretty gentle even for lots of criticism within academia - professors sling worse invectives at one another in academic debates all the time, without us GUNRELing an entire academic journal because it had published an article that was criticized in another one this way.
• :And your quote (which you misleadingly end with a full stop that is not present in the original) conveniently omits the subsequent part of the sentence part where the author admits {{tq|although they [The Crimson] acknowledge many errors of a similar kind [as those reported by Sibarium] across multiple pieces authored by Gay}}. What's more, in the sentence right before, the author himself seems to accept the Beacon's core factual allegations: {{tq|Writing for the Washington Free Beacon, Aaron Sibarium (2023) has highlighted numerous instances of overlapping phrasing, unclearly cited or incorrectly formatted quotations, and apparent copying in Gay’s scholarly output.}} When it comes to differences of interpretation (plagiarism or not), it's also worth noting that the opinion which the article advocates ({{tq|I do not even see plagiarism, in any meaningful sense of the word}}) flatly contradicts that of several other academics, e.g. Carol M. Swain. However, you apparently want us to believe that the article somewhat represents the academic consensus, as if Sibarium had engaged in climate denialism.
• :Based on this additional information and the fact that you tampered with a verbatim quote in a way that both furthered your argument and violated MOS:PMC, it could even be reasonably argued that your own comment here "distorts the context somewhat". But I wouldn't accuse you of being {{tq|a fountain of misinformation}} just because of that.
• :Regards, HaeB (talk) 08:36, 6 May 2025 (UTC)

:::The "fountain of misinformation" bit summarizes the other sources, which are much more in-depth and clear that the Free Beacon is not a reliable source (one of them says as much in as many words.) I included the bit about Gay merely because that is the main focus of people arguing that it is reliable and to demonstrate that there are sources that cover that as part of the the same thing; and "somewhat distorts" adequately summarizes their position, as you conceded. If the best you can muster in defense of what is supposedly its star bit of reporting and the thing that its defenders believe is that academics have only said that it "somewhat" distorts the facts, then that's hardly enough to overcome significant academic coverage overtly describing it as a {{tq|propagandistic, conspiracy-oriented, and unreliable website}} or saying that it is known for {{tq|spreading unreliable junk.}} This is simply not something that could conceivably be considered a reliable source; the only serious debate is between unreliability and deprecation. They are not simply biased, they overtly and systematically distort the facts in the service of an ideological agenda. "One of their hit pieces got wider coverage" obviously does not render such a low-quality source reliable. --Aquillion (talk) 12:09, 6 May 2025 (UTC)

• Generally reliable - Many articles are well researched. Allthemilescombined1 (talk) 22:15, 9 May 2025 (UTC)

{{reflist-talk}}

{{User:ClueBot III/DoNotArchiveUntil|1749304872}}

{{rfc|sci|rfcid=84120E1}}

What is the reliability of the The Debrief [https://thedebrief.org/]?

• Option 1: Generally reliable
• Option 2: Additional considerations
• Option 3: Generally unreliable
• Option 4: Generally unreliable, with deprecation

Chetsford (talk) 07:45, 3 May 2025 (UTC)

• Option 3 (generally unreliable). The Debrief is the new(ish) blog of paranormal podcaster Micah Hanks (host of "The Graelian Report" - an apparent portmanteau of "grey alien" ... one of the alien species flying saucer believers think are battling the Galactic Federation of Light led by the "good" Pleiadians). With The Debrief, he appears to be trying to edge into the mainstream by branding it as "science and tech" and mixing summaries of mainstream science news with the usual cruft (there's an entire section on flying saucers [https://thedebrief.org/category/uap/]).
  Hanks has written and spoken in a variety of media about ghosts, ESP, "lost" civilization, flying saucers, Bigfoot, etc. (see: [https://open.spotify.com/episode/6fdSoJDbtvDxkWH0AIrGft], [https://www.podchaser.com/podcasts/the-micah-hanks-program-1576/episodes/012515-esp-and-disappearances-44119], etc.) These reports appear largely uncritical and seem to originate at a starting point which presumes veracity of the paranormal. He also frequents the paranormal lecture circuit (here he is at "East Coast Paracon" on a "remote viewing" panel [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KgJLTfEGwmQ]). He is also a guest talking about flying saucers on News Nation [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YT6mHcv6OIg] which we previously determined was unreliable per WP:UFONATION. Insofar as WP:USEBYOTHERS it was widely cited around one event, the David Grusch UFO whistleblower claims, based apparently on the exclusivity of its access to Grusch or those who know him. I can find no other instances of USEBYOTHERS. Chetsford (talk) 07:44, 3 May 2025 (UTC)

:*Addendum: I'm also fine with Option 4 if needed to attain a consensus, though, I share the concern of Chess that it might not be used with enough frequency to make it worthwhile adding it to the edit filter. Chetsford (talk) 08:47, 5 May 2025 (UTC)

• Option 5 (totally unreliable). Just forget about it. Yesterday, all my dreams... (talk) 20:23, 3 May 2025 (UTC)

::Difficult to forget about anything that contributes to dramah... and disruption. Fortuna, Imperatrix Mundi 18:38, 5 May 2025 (UTC)

:::Well, we can always hope that the domain name The Debrief will be abducted by some UFO people and will disappear from the internet. Would that be nice? Yesterday, all my dreams... (talk) 16:29, 7 May 2025 (UTC)

::::With the requisite probing that comes with it perhaps{{bcc|Yesterday, all my dreams...}}...? ;) Fortuna, Imperatrix Mundi 15:33, 8 May 2025 (UTC)

• Option 4: Generally unreliable, with deprecation. It seems to be a mixture of FRINGE and reposts of articles available elsewhere. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul (talk) 09:50, 4 May 2025 (UTC)
• :Is this frequently used enough onwiki to be worth adding to the edit filter? Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 04:23, 5 May 2025 (UTC)
• Option 2 (additional considerations). It's used in 50+ articles, it requires care but it's of great utility and we wouldn't want to wholesale purge it. Obviously, it a pro-UFO outlet, so it's not reliable for extraordinary claims about alternate worldviews. But ASIDE from FRINGE claims, it meets RS in terms of fact-checking, accuracy, and error-correcting. When it makes uncontroversial claims about living people (Person X has joined Organization Y), it seems generally reliable. Feoffer (talk) 09:44, 5 May 2025 (UTC)
• Option 3, leaning option 4. It's WP:FRINGE material from a WP:TABLOID, non-RS blog. No reason to entertain it, plenty of reason to remove. Fortuna, Imperatrix Mundi 18:38, 5 May 2025 (UTC)
• Option 2/3. Generally unreliable for claims about UFOs etc since it represents a fringe view on the subject. Claims of that nature sourced to The Debrief should be removed. But there is no need to exclude its use for uncontroversial claims and reporting about the activities and persons involved in the fringe UFO community. -- LWG ^talk 18:51, 5 May 2025 (UTC)
• Option 4 Micah Hanks is obviously unreliable and so is his blog. Polygnotus (talk) 21:27, 6 May 2025 (UTC)
• Option 4 Unreliable misinforming trash - David Gerard (talk) 22:55, 6 May 2025 (UTC)
• Option 3, possibly Option 4. Micah Hanks is reason enough to define The Debrief as unreliable, but that it claims to have a "reputation as an unbiased source of news" and yet typically publishes material like [https://thedebrief.org/was-this-underreported-fighter-plane-crash-ufo-related/ this]...that's a hard NO. JoJo Anthrax (talk) 23:52, 6 May 2025 (UTC)
• :Why do you object to that article of all articles?! it debunks a legend, concluding "there is nothing in the official records to suggest that any sort of UFO or other anomalous activity was involved.... The tragic event seems to have been the result of poor decisions made by the pilot." Feoffer (talk) 07:06, 7 May 2025 (UTC)
• Option 4. Simply not a basis for decent encyclopedic content. Bon courage (talk) 01:59, 7 May 2025 (UTC)
• Option 4. Not a WP:FRIND or reliable source for UFOs, conspiracy theories, paranormal, occult, etc. For citing uncontroversial information or general facts, there are likely much higher quality sources available, so why use The Debrief? - LuckyLouie (talk) 14:55, 7 May 2025 (UTC)
• :My own involvement began as a side discussion on the "Sol Foundation" AFD. 21st century stuff is not my forte, but my thinking is that while their beliefs are no doubt fringe, it is not a fringe claim for us to report that various notable fringe promoters have allied under a common name, which is all the source in question was being used for. Seems like the project is better off if we can tell readers "who" the "Sol Foundation" actually is, so they can read our articles on the members, rather than just send them back to the wilds of the internet Feoffer (talk) 12:30, 8 May 2025 (UTC)

:::I hear you. I haven't followed that discussion. Could you give an example of data you'd want to extract from The Debrief? The Debrief articles I see about Sol [https://thedebrief.org/academics-investors-and-uap-seekers-unite-at-the-2024-sol-foundation-symposium/ read like propaganda written by a PR person]. I think it would be difficult for casual editors to discern how to apply an exception to an otherwise deprecated source. - LuckyLouie (talk) 13:04, 8 May 2025 (UTC)

::::I don't actually know if we need to cite Debrief in the article, but it's coverage of the controversial group of notable people does count toward notability, at least according to my thinking. To complicate matters, the group is at least partially religious in nature, getting coverage in Catholic press as well as UFO press, both of which are fringe worldviews but still count towards notability (in my eyes). But admittedly, about 50 years outside my expertise, I can't keep straight who is who in the 2020s ufo world. Feoffer (talk) 03:28, 9 May 2025 (UTC)

• Option 4. It has no real fact checking or editorial oversight. Their non-UFO reporting isn't any better. - MrOllie (talk) 13:12, 8 May 2025 (UTC)
• Option 2. Usable depending on context. Decide on a case-by-case basis. Visiting the [https://thedebrief.org/ site], which is clearly not a blog as is being exaggerated here, the articles look and read like straight reporting in the majority of instances. 5Q5|^✉ 12:32, 9 May 2025 (UTC)

• The Debrief has not previously been discussed at RSN but is coming up with greater regularity by flying saucer enthusiasts who are using it as a source for related articles. A current and contentious AfD is also presently turning on whether or not this is RS. Chetsford (talk) 07:44, 3 May 2025 (UTC)
• :The last discussion appears to have been Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 425#Thedebrief.org, which appears to be have been impart a result of this discussion Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard/Archive 98#UFOlogy promoter BLPs.
  [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?limit=100&offset=0&profile=default&search=insource%3A%22thedebrief.org%22&title=Special:Search&ns0=1 This search] shows some limited current usage in Wikipedia's articles. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 12:22, 3 May 2025 (UTC)
• {{re|Chetsford}} I don't see an {{tl|rfc}} tag on this discussion. Would you like to add one? — Newslinger talk 13:36, 3 May 2025 (UTC)

:*Oops, thank you, Newslinger! Totally forgot - now fixed. Chetsford (talk) 13:58, 3 May 2025 (UTC)

• I see an analogy with the publications associated with minority worldviews. Ensign (LDS magazine) isn't a RS in the same way NYTs is; we're not citing it to prove the Golden Plates existed. But Ensign is generally reliable, when properly used. Feoffer (talk) 09:52, 5 May 2025 (UTC)
• I'm with Feoffer here: it's unreliable (or at least undue) when used as a source for subject areas where it's at odds with the preponderance of more reliable sources. But there's no reason we can't cite Ensign (LDS magazine) for a claim like "so-and-so is a LDS theologian whose writings focus on [topic]" and I think The Debrief is acceptable for similar purposes. This far I haven't seen any case made against The Debrief besides "it publishes the writings of people with factually-incorrect beliefs about UFOs" which is an argument that would seem to apply to any publication aligned with a minority worldview. -- LWG ^talk 18:26, 5 May 2025 (UTC)
• Media Bias/Fact Check [https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/the-debrief-bias/ rates] The Debrief as "High Credibility" and "Mostly Factual" while still note the unsubstantiated UFO claims. I don't know how much weight we give MBFC ratings, but at minimum the rating demonstates Debrief is a media source, not 'just a blog'. Feoffer (talk) 06:47, 11 May 2025 (UTC)
• :MFBC and other such sites don't base there analysis on Wikipedie's policies and guidelines. They might be useful for further research of a source, but I wouldn't give their conclusions any weight. This isn't a comment on if Debrief is a blog, or whether it's reliable or not. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 10:02, 11 May 2025 (UTC)
• ::That's fair -- we shouldn't cede our editorial judgement to something like MFBC. But some arguments above really did suggest it's not a media site, so that narrow argument does seem refuted. Feoffer (talk) 13:08, 11 May 2025 (UTC)
• :::MBFC have a report of Science-Based Medicine using the same kind of language[https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/science-based-medicine/], however per WP:SBM it should at least be considered partially self-published. Again such decisions should be based on Wikipedia's policies and guidelines rather than an external source. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 13:30, 11 May 2025 (UTC)

Hi, what are people's views on the reliability of www.Ghanahighschools.com? This is being added to Ghana school articles by an editor to verify schools' categories, day or boarding, gender of pupils etc. Examples [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sunyani_Senior_High_School&diff=1288553640&oldid=1269234258 here] and [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ghana_Senior_High_School%2C_Koforidua&diff=1288559613&oldid=1287933224 here]. The site says {{tq|GhanaHighSchools.com was established and programmed by the Dodoo Coding Club (DCC), a non-profit organisation based in Pokuase, Northwest of Accra, Ghana. We teach local children and teenagers computer coding. Our goal is to develop a substantial academy of capable computer programmers in Pokuase who can assist companies with IT/coding services}}. I don't see anything on the site that says where it's getting the information from, or whether there's any checking. Thanks. Tacyarg (talk) 13:14, 3 May 2025 (UTC)

:This is a slightly odd one, I'd bet good money that they are pulling the data from some sort of official database but there's nothing on the site to explain if that's the case. The site itself appears to be a student project by the Dodoo Coding Club, I think it's the result of scrapping the internet. Some of the details could be referenced to this pdf[https://ges.gov.gh/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/doubletrack.pdf] for the Ghana Education Service. The other details, courses studies and facilities, are likely from the schools themselves. It's likely these references should be replaced with better sources.
Your first example for instance is a mix of the pdf I mentioned, and the schools about us page[https://www.susec.edu.gh/about-us]. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 20:51, 4 May 2025 (UTC)

::I suppose it can be used until there is some significant objecton to its usuage. It is a non-profit and has a database of sorts. Ramos1990 (talk) 00:10, 7 May 2025 (UTC)

:::so do you mean i can use that source to do my editing? Abdul Rahman Abdul Kudus (talk) 13:48, 10 May 2025 (UTC)

[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Timeline_of_crimes_involving_the_Order_of_Nine_Angles&diff=prev&oldid=1288934272 Diff 1], [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Timeline_of_crimes_involving_the_Order_of_Nine_Angles&diff=prev&oldid=1288934339 Diff 2]

Hi, a long time user, first time asker. I feel a bit stupid, not knowing the proper Wikipedia legalese, and if this is a wrong place, I apologize.

A user has added a bit of info on a person, apparently written by the subject (Chkhikvishvili is a leader of the mentioned group). But it's not really a Biography. I know self-published/primary sources/autobiographies are frowned upon, but they point out similar sources are used elsewhere. I know I probably should be able to coherently argue why they're bad, but I exclusively use news and academic sources so I have little knowledge regarding self-published sources.

Thanks RKT7789 (talk) 14:20, 5 May 2025 (UTC)

:The diffs here are not WP:ABOUTSELF as they refer to group actions rather than the actions of the author. As such it is not an appropriate WP:SPS for use. Simonm223 (talk) 14:36, 5 May 2025 (UTC)

::Does ABOUTSELF not also apply to some extent to groups? ABOUTSELF says "themselves", which is plural, it doesn't specify one person. Not saying this is a great use case but I've seen numerous instances of people using sources from an organization/group to cite basic facts about it. E.g. a company's or school's website says when it was founded

::I wouldn't use it here because these facts aren't basic and it doesn't appear to be due weight. PARAKANYAA (talk) 01:02, 6 May 2025 (UTC)

:Has this ever been WP:Published? It's Chkhikvishvili's manifesto that he gave to followers and some other people, but I don't think it's publicly available. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 14:52, 5 May 2025 (UTC) ** addendum ** This was answered on the articles talk page, it is available to the public online so has been WP:Published by Wikipedia's definition. Discussion continues on that page about it's reliability. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 21:51, 7 May 2025 (UTC)

::I know it's poor form for me to spread disputes across multiple pages, but how would you respond to the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Timeline_of_crimes_involving_the_Order_of_Nine_Angles#Hater's_Handbook claim it's an appropriate primary source]? RKT7789 (talk) 15:05, 5 May 2025 (UTC)

:::I'd say that WP:PRIMARY doesn't give a definitive answer but does provide some good guidance. {{tq|Primary sources that have been reputably published may be used in Wikipedia, but only with care, because it is easy to misuse them.}} Qualifies the careful use of primary sources by suggesting they should be reputably published. This source was not "reputably" published. {{tq|A primary source may be used on Wikipedia only to make straightforward, descriptive statements of facts that can be verified by any educated person with access to the primary source but without further, specialized knowledge}} I don't think we can say that an educated person with access to a primary source like Nazi Terrorist (auto)biography could successfully verify the information. {{tq|Use extra caution when handling primary sources about living people; see WP:Biographies of living persons § Avoid misuse of primary sources, which is policy.}} This would suggest, as it discusses living subjects, that we should exercise extra caution in the handling of primary sources.

:::Based on these three policy excerpts I would say that my policy interpretation would be to exclude the source but I will concede that policy, as described, has ambiguity and demands an editor judgment call here. So I'm going to say I would personally remove this but other editors might feel differently without deviating from policy. Simonm223 (talk) 15:18, 5 May 2025 (UTC)

I have noticed some articles using these as sources. Are they reliable enough for inclusion? HorrorLover555 (talk) 16:14, 5 May 2025 (UTC)

:We'll need more information. What is the context and what claims are they supporting? Canterbury Tail talk 16:41, 5 May 2025 (UTC)

::Thank you for your response. On the article Yesterwynde, both sources are used for the track listing for the orchestral bonus tracks below the regular track listing. HorrorLover555 (talk) 18:20, 5 May 2025 (UTC)

:::See WP:TRACKLIST for guidance. Sergecross73 msg me 18:36, 5 May 2025 (UTC)

:Usually, we follow WP:AFFILIATE's guidance in a general sense, and Apple Music's interview content in accordance with WP:PRIMARY. Sergecross73 msg me 16:48, 5 May 2025 (UTC)

:Usable in tables, usually undue in prose.--Launchballer 20:06, 5 May 2025 (UTC)

::The context in which I have seen Apple Music and Spotify used is as references in discographies. My opinion is that in that context they are listing of products sold by vendors, and are satisfactory primary sources, although non-commercial sources are preferred. For ranking purposes (as a form of charting), they should be considered unreliable. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:06, 6 May 2025 (UTC)

:If they're used to verify facts about the piece itself, that's usually okay.--3family6 (Talk to me|See what I have done) 12:18, 9 May 2025 (UTC)

• Vendor streaming charts must be considered reliable for the question of which songs have the highest amount of streaming from that vendor so far as independent reliable sources (such as newspapers) consider those charts to be reliable for that purpose. However, unless the vendor streaming chart position is reported by an independent reliable source (such as a newspaper), it will probably usually be WP:UNDUE (assuming that national charts such as Billboard are available). If, for example, the NYT reports a vendor streaming chart position, there is no question of rejecting that NYT article. If the NYT thinks that chart position is important, then it is important, in whatever context the NYT is reporting it. James500 (talk) 17:30, 9 May 2025 (UTC)

At Talk:Oriental (Morocco), a dispute has arisen over which name in Standard Moroccan Tamazight (written in Tifinagh) should be used to label the "Oriental" region in the article’s infobox.

I argue that the correct and verifiable name is ⵓⵏⵇⵇⴰⵔ, as shown on the official Moroccan government website:

🔗 https://www.maroc.ma/amz/taxonomy/term/9

On that multilingual, government-maintained site, ⵓⵏⵇⵇⴰⵔ appears on the map as the name for the Oriental region in Tamazight. The site allows toggling between languages and shows region names consistently in Arabic, French, English, and Tamazight (Tifinagh).

Opposing editors argue that other Tifinagh names exist (e.g. ⴰⵙⵏⵇⵔ, ⵜⴰⵎⵏⴰⴹⵜ ⵏ ⵓⴳⵎⵓⴹ, ⵍⵇⴱⵍⵜ), and that therefore we need reliable secondary sources to confirm which one is "official." They cite WP:PRIMARY and WP:OR to claim that we should not use ⵓⵏⵇⵇⴰⵔ without independent verification.

However:

These alternative names are not supported in the sources they are said to come from. For example:

ⴰⵙⵏⵇⵔ is never actually used in the articles it's claimed to be in. Talk:Oriental (Morocco)#c-ElijahUHC-20250507212900-Skitash-20250507211400

ⵜⴰⵎⵏⴰⴹⵜ ⵏ ⵓⴳⵎⵓⴹ and ⵍⵇⴱⵍⵜ were lifted from other-language Wikipedia articles (like Tachelhit), and do not appear in government documents or authoritative contexts. Talk:Oriental (Morocco)#c-ElijahUHC-20250507205600-ElijahUHC-20250507204800

The Moroccan government is the official naming authority for its administrative regions. No interpretation is being made beyond what is directly shown on its website.

WP:PRIMARY allows citing an official source for simple factual claims (e.g., the official name of a government region), so long as we are not interpreting it beyond what is stated.

WP:BIAS suggests caution when rejecting content about marginalized languages due to lack of secondary sources, especially when a government body (in this case, Morocco) has standardized and published the name in that language and script.

Can we treat the Moroccan government's own website (https://www.maroc.ma/en) as a reliable source for the Tifinagh name of the Oriental region (ⵓⵏⵇⵇⴰⵔ), even in the absence of secondary sources? Does using this verifiable, official name violate WP:PRIMARY or WP:OR? ElijahUHC (talk) 22:21, 7 May 2025 (UTC)

:Alas a very small fraction of people on this board speak the relevat language. So most reponses will probably be random. Sorry. Yesterday, all my dreams... (talk) 22:48, 7 May 2025 (UTC)

::I understand. My main question is this: "Can we treat the Moroccan government's official website (https://www.maroc.ma/en) as a reliable source?" not is the word correct. Since it's a governmentally designated regional name, Should the government that coined it be considered a reliable source for Wikipedia articles? ElijahUHC (talk) 22:58, 7 May 2025 (UTC)

:::In general goverments are reliable for themselves, so in this case the Moroccan goverment is reliable for the Moroccan government using that Tifinagh name for the Oriental region. It wouldn't necessarily be reliable to say that that is the Tifinagh name people use. The difference would be between an official name and a common name, I can't say if there is a difference in this case but the Moroccan government source doesn't rule it out. Secondary sources my be required to determine what use is correct.
As Y,AMD said I doubt anyone on this board will be able to help with Tifinagh translations, you could try asking on WT:WikiProject Morocco there could be other native speakers who are part of the project. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 23:58, 7 May 2025 (UTC)

::::Yes, I understand the whole issue with translation, but we’re beyond that if you’ve read what’s happening in the article. An editor is denying the use of Tifinagh unless it’s referenced. When a reference from the government itself was used, the argument shifted to the need for a secondary source. But this is all about a government-defined regional name. What I’m trying to clarify is: is the government itself a reliable enough source to be cited for a term it created? Because the talk page is getting bogged down in the rule of secondary sourcing—for a regional name officially defined by the government ElijahUHC (talk) 00:03, 8 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::Sorry if i got too complex here, in short. I'm not making a linguistic claim, but asking if the government website is enough to be considered a verifiable source under what WP:PRIMARY allows for government-assigned regional names. ElijahUHC (talk) 00:07, 8 May 2025 (UTC)

::::::I tried to answer this with my first comment. Only the final sentence is related to translation. Governments are reliable for statements from that government. So in this case they are reliable for the fact that the Moroccan government uses ⵓⵏⵇⵇⴰⵔ, whether that is the name that people actually use is another matter. The government source doesn't rule out disagreement from other reliable sources. There can be disagreement between reliable sources, with the government source being one of them. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 11:25, 8 May 2025 (UTC)

Sometime today, I wondered why there is such a brouhaha about the use of specific languages here. Then I remembered the issue of the Catalan language. First, let me admit that I have very limited knowledge of Spanish, and speak no Catalan. But I do know that the use of Catalan vs Spanish can be a major poitical issue. And after all governments are political organizations. So before this goes any further, let us wonder if there are political rather linguistic issues at play here. That is all I have to say. Yesterday, all my dreams... (talk) 19:23, 8 May 2025 (UTC)

:It’s true that language choices can carry political issues, especially in multilingual states. But in this case, the issue is strictly about verifiability and official usage, not political alignment or advocacy.

:The Moroccan government uses Standard Moroccan Tamazight, in Tifinagh script, nationwide for official purposes. While there are other Berber languages and dialects, this discussion is not about them, because the name in question refers to an administrative region, not an ethnolinguistic, cultural, or historical region.

:This is about whether the name, as it appears on a official government site, meets the criteria of WP:V and WP:PRIMARY for inclusion — nothing more. ElijahUHC (talk) 19:58, 8 May 2025 (UTC)

::Yes, the official government site is a reliable primary source for the names used by the Moroccan government. Just like the US government is a reliable source for the fact that they use their own name for the Gulf of Mexico. —Kusma (talk) 09:26, 10 May 2025 (UTC)

• The Moroccan government website is valid only for the official name, and this would likely be due. The fact it is a primary source is irrelevant here, the Moroccan state is reliable for the naming of its own provinces.Boynamedsue (talk) 06:53, 10 May 2025 (UTC)

The source: Ecker et al has written the book "Unlocking the Emotional Brain" [2012]. I quote:{{pb}}

The fishy claim: "Psychotherapy that regularly yields liberating, lasting change was, in the last century, a futuristic vision, but it has now become reality, thanks to a convergence of remarkable advances in clinical knowledge and brain science. In Unlocking the Emotional Brain, authors Ecker, Ticic and Hulley equip readers to carry out focused, empathic therapy using the process found by researchers to induce memory reconsolidation, the recently discovered and only known process for actually unlocking emotional memory at the synaptic level." (emphasis mine).{{pb}}

The article: Neuro-linguistic programming{{pb}}

The claim it is supposed to verify: NLP isn't pseudoscience.

It this a WP:RS to WP:V such claim? tgeorgescu (talk) 23:04, 7 May 2025 (UTC)

:The fishy claim looks like it is a rephrasing of a publisher's blurb which comes before the content of [https://www.coherencetherapy.org/files/Unlocking_the_Emotional_Brain-Ch1.pdf the work] so it's probably irrelevant. You're asking if we can trust this work to tell us something about NLP's status as a pseudoscience, specifically that it is not a pseudoscience? fiveby(zero) 00:27, 8 May 2025 (UTC)

::So the answer to that question is no. NLP is briefly mentioned twice:{{quote|Numerous other systems of psychotherapy that regularly produce transformational change could have been included in the unification demonstration in Part 2 if not for book length limitations...For case examples of transformational change via TRP in sessions of Alexander Technique, Neurolinguistic Programming, Progressive Counting, and Tapping, see (https)://bit.ly/15Z00HQ.}} on page 5 citing [https://www.coherencetherapy.org/discover/TRP-documented-therapies.htm some website]. If the authors wish to discuss NLP case examples and demonstrate it is not a pseudoscience they can write a longer book. In a chapter on EMDR: {{quote|Dual focus is present also in some other therapeutic systems of transformational change, such as Neurolinguistic Programming (NLP), Progressive Counting, and acupoint tapping, but reliance on bilateral stimulation is EMDR’s distinctive form of dual focus.}} (both quotes from 2024 Routledge edition)

::I think this work is simply irrelevant so no need to evaluate author or content. fiveby(zero) 00:57, 8 May 2025 (UTC)

:I looked at the talk page (thanks very much for that) and the content proposal seems to be [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Neuro-linguistic_programming&diff=prev&oldid=1289284600 this]. Looking in first edition the basis is the publisher's "yields liberating, lasting change" from the blurb and the single mention in this edition: inclusion in a table labeled "Focused, experiential, in-depth psychotherapies that are congenial to fulfilling the therapeutic reconsolidation process if the therapist applies them to do so". The other Ecker source mentioned, "Using NLP for Memory Reconsolidation: A Glimpse of Integrating the Panoply of Psychotherapies" is published by the in-house magazine of some org [https://www.thescienceofpsychotherapy.net/bundles/premium-membership selling memberships]. I think no need to pay much attention to these proposals from the IPs. fiveby(zero) 02:18, 8 May 2025 (UTC)

:It's important to raise the reliable source-issue in a fair and neutral way. Let's have a look.

:As @DiscipulusVirtutis notes that the first sentence of the Wikiepdia page on NLP states that NLP is pseudoscience. "The phrase "NLP is a pseudoscientific approach" implies a universally accepted categorization, which may not fully represent the complexity of the discussion".

:So the argument made is not that NLP as pseudoscience is disproven. The argument is that it is not universally seen as such in academia.

:In support of his argument I note that at least some reputable scholars vouch for NLP. One important example being the co-creator of "Coherence therapy", formerly known as Depth-oriented brief therapy, which is well-respected within its segment of postmodern therapies (Neimeyer 2003, 2009). He is the co-author of "Unlocking the emotional brain" [2012], published on the reputable academic press Routledge. The second edition was published in 2024.

:Unlocking the Emotional brain claims to equip readers to carry out focused, empathic therapy using the process found by researchers to induce memory reconsolidation, the recently discovered and only known process for actually unlocking emotional memory at the synaptic level. This neuroscientific view is not exclusive to them. In 2015, four prestigious (with a total of 500 published research articles between them) psychologists published a BBS target article, Memory reconsolidation, emotional arousal, and the process of change in psychotherapy: New insights from brain science (Lane et al. 2015)

:In their counter-response, Lane et al. noted UtEB’s model to be highly compatible with theirs, and remarked that further research is needed to nail down the conditions which make reconsolidation the most effective."

:So not only is Brucke Ecker's therapy respected (Neimeyer, Routledge), his neuroscientific approach also has respect in the scientific community. In other words: Brucke Ecker is a respected academic. Not a "fringe peddler".

:It's worth noting that the neuroscience is not the most central point of the argument. The central point is that a reputable academic vouches for NLPs clinical effectiveness.

:Ecker vouches for the clinical effectiveness of NLP in the book Unlocking the Emotional brain. My argument is that his name/authority alone is enough to warrant an adjustment of the universal categorization of NLP as a pseudoscience. Note that this categorization is a very strong statement, and can easily reach too far, and can get into conflict with wiki's NPOV. RockMarden (talk) 08:44, 8 May 2025 (UTC)

::Generally Wikipedia should state the mainstream view as fact, and then attribute any decenting views from reliable sources. It's not required that there's universal agreement. What is or is not the mainstream view is of course open to debate, but not everyone in the field has to agree. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 11:15, 8 May 2025 (UTC)

• "Unlocking the Emotional Brain" is a WP:FRINGE/pop-science book. While (like everything) it's reliable for what it says, it is not reliable for any non-mundane knowledge, and so of zero use for writing encyclopedic content. Bon courage (talk) 09:10, 8 May 2025 (UTC)
• :"Unlocking the Emotional Brain" is a WP:FRINGE/pop-science book."
• :Asserted, but not argued... I'm forced to reiterate the relevant section of my comment:
• :In 2015, four prestigious (with a total of 500 published research articles between them) psychologists published a BBS target article, Memory reconsolidation, emotional arousal, and the process of change in psychotherapy: New insights from brain science (Lane et al. 2015)
• :In their counter-response, Lane et al. noted UtEB’s model to be highly compatible with theirs, and remarked that further research is needed to nail down the conditions which make reconsolidation the most effective." 194.69.213.204 (talk) 10:42, 8 May 2025 (UTC)
• ::I agree that those two quotes are passing remarks, but they do show that the book passingly endorses many disparate fringe views. tgeorgescu (talk) 18:22, 8 May 2025 (UTC)
• ::Ecker has endorsed too many quackeries to remain credible. Endorsing all those pseudoscientific therapies does not make him look sophisticated, it makes him look like a fool. tgeorgescu (talk) 00:50, 9 May 2025 (UTC)

Regarding the Panimur page which were given from non native sources such as Assam sentinel has misinterpretation and misinformation about it. All the actual information about it, is in local FB page media outlets written in languages of the locals(Dimasa language). Can we use those pages for citation or reference instead of Assam sentinel? Mishimao (talk) 00:04, 8 May 2025 (UTC)

:This is going to a be a very generalised answer, as you question isn't very specific. Facebook isn't generally regarded as a reliable source. The exception would be if a newspaper or other already reliable source was making Facebook posts, but even then other sources would be preferable. Sources do not have to be in English, see WP:NOENG, so there no reason sources in Dimasa can't be used. Sometimes if there is disagreement between it should be discussed in the article.

:In general secondary sources are preferred, Wikipedia is interested in what is said about a subject not what a subject says about itself. So newspaper published in Dimasa would be acceptable but your personal knowledge, or other peoples personal would not. If there's any disagreement with how articles are edited they can be discussed on the articles talk page. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 11:33, 8 May 2025 (UTC)

I think we might want to consider whether VOA should be considered GUNREL from May 2025 forward per [https://www.nytimes.com/live/2025/05/07/us/trump-news?unlocked_article_code=1.Fk8.aab_.e460M-ZWazOu&smid=url-share this NYT article]. voorts (talk/contributions) 01:23, 8 May 2025 (UTC)

:Seems to be a notable concern according to [https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/may/07/voice-america-one-america-news the Guardian] as well. DN (talk) 01:48, 8 May 2025 (UTC)

::Raised this already at WT:RS. Masem (t) 02:00, 8 May 2025 (UTC)

::I'm not a particular fan of VoA as a source, but should we see this veer in the direction this suggests, it would be due a re-consideration. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 21:22, 8 May 2025 (UTC)

:I think we should definitely be concerned, see what happened to covid.gov, but has the output of VOA changed yet? If they do start outputting reposts from OAN then they would become unreliable as OAN is unreliable, and where an unreliable source is published doesn't change its status (all the DM reposts on MSN and Yahoo for instance). I just worry about jumping the gun before changes have been made. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 11:39, 8 May 2025 (UTC)

::But we should also wait, until we see what it does. But we do need to keep an eye on it. Slatersteven (talk) 12:06, 8 May 2025 (UTC)

:::Agreed. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:51, 8 May 2025 (UTC)

:For now its a wait and see but its likely going to need to be date seperated as you suggest. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:16, 8 May 2025 (UTC)

::Yes, agreed. I was just flagging it. voorts (talk/contributions) 20:57, 8 May 2025 (UTC)

:Is there a way to have any link to it archived automatically? Just to prevent tampering with older articles. FortunateSons (talk) 08:51, 9 May 2025 (UTC)

::According to WP:PLRT the Internet Archive runs through the Wikipedia EventStream and archives all links it sees automatically within about 24 hours, which is probably about as good as we can do. Alpha3031 (t • c) 09:06, 9 May 2025 (UTC)

:::Ah, I assumed there would be a larger delay, this is probably good enough, thanks. FortunateSons (talk) 09:12, 9 May 2025 (UTC)

:Well, so much for it advertising the land of the free and the home of the brave. NadVolum (talk) 12:51, 9 May 2025 (UTC)

::It can't happen here. I wouldn't trust any US government source for at best the next 4 years. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul (talk) 13:49, 9 May 2025 (UTC)

:::I can thoroughly recommend 'Travellers in the Third Reich' which is about what people travelling to Germany said in the years before WW II. It is quite fascinating seeing what tourists, businessmen, diplomats, writers and others said about their journeys there, I still find it hard to believe how it all happened and how those who disagreed were cowed into silence or had to flee, how people one might expect to know better became ardent believers, how the youth in particular were taken over. NadVolum (talk) 14:41, 9 May 2025 (UTC)

:I would support infinite (non date specific) deprecation of all USAGM properties because (a) the sources clearly support that they have always been unreliable, and less importantly but still observedly, (b) our unwillingness to deprecate in the past exposes us to ridicule now.

:One year ago I advanced a successful RfC that led to the deprecation of VOA sibling broadcaster Radio y Television Marti. I also advanced an unsuccessful RfC related to another VOA sibling, RFE/RL, on an objective basis of unreliability (chief among them was that its reorganization under the USAGM removed all cushions between editorial and political policy). While I still strongly believe all USAGM broadcasters (including VOA, RFE/RL, Radio Free Asia, etc.) should be deprecated, I will generally note that now when we do it -- having declined to do so last year -- we will open ourselves to claims of political bias. That doesn't mean it shouldn't be done, of course. However, deprecation, when it happens, should cover the whole history of VOA as clear evidence supports that it is and has been unreliable throughout its existence; any recent events are superficial when viewed through a holistic lens of USAGM and BBGs documented, decades-long history of errors, omissions, political manipulation, and agenda-setting oriented towards supporting the wild global ambitions of its sponsor. It's perceptually perilous, but -- more important -- factually incorrect, to suggest VOA's reliability can be turned off and on like a light switch. Chetsford (talk) 11:09, 10 May 2025 (UTC)

::If VOA stops it's current reporting and starts reposting OAN, then there will have been a definitive switch. Just because the name would stay the same doesn't mean it's would be the same organisation. If someone bought a newspaper and completely changed it from the ground up, then reassessing it and potentially changing it's reliability would be valid. If something no longer bears any relationship with it's past, there is no reason it should be treated the same. If anyone wants to make a claim of political bias they would have to show where that happened, not just that different sources are handled differently.
I would agree that nothing should happen now, as I said in my original comment. We should wait to see what happens and how secondary sources report on it. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 15:48, 10 May 2025 (UTC)

:::I'm not really certain we agree at all. To clarify, I believe all USAGM properties should have been deprecated ten years ago and the error can be remedied at any point including now. We already have decades worth of secondary sources that demonstrate to the satisfaction of any reasonable person that each of the USAGM brands have not been functionally independent since they were founded, even with the ostensible protections offered by the now defunct BBG. I itemized a mere fraction of these in the Radio y Television Marti and RFE/RL RfCs. Whether or not it starts simulcasting or syndicating OAN is superfluous; that's a drop in a reservoir that long ago crested the dam. Chetsford (talk) 16:54, 10 May 2025 (UTC)

::::I'm not being drawn into past RFC, especially if they closed with a consensus that these were reliable. If you believe there is already enough evidence to change that consensus you can always start a new RFC. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 17:51, 10 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::{{Xt|"I'm not being drawn into past RFC"}} I don't think -- or at least didn't mean to -- draw you into a past RfC. You seemed to imply no secondary sources exist about the unreliability of USAGM brands; I was merely correcting that point that, in fact, there are scores of secondary sources spanning decades. {{Xt|"especially if they closed with a consensus that these were reliable"}} One closed with a consensus to deprecate, the other closed with a consensus that additional considerations apply. I would respectfully posit that, in the second case, that consensus occurred largely due to !voters similarly adopting a See No Evil, Hear No Evil approach to the subject. Chetsford (talk) 00:28, 11 May 2025 (UTC)

::::::I think the key concept here is the presumption of regularity. If our treatment of government sources varied with the change of political party then yes, we'd be open to a charge of bias. I doubt you'd find much support for the idea that we can say that about the present situation in the United States. Developing an argument that the VOA has always been unreliable, and that the current (possible) changes make no different, seems like a difficult and unnecessary hill to climb. Mackensen (talk) 00:58, 11 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::::As the person who closed the past two RFCs, I agree that that would be a tough battle, and probably one that would generate more heat than fire. voorts (talk/contributions) 01:01, 11 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::::It is difficult, I agree, though I'd posit that's largely due to the American sensibilities of most of our editors whose cultural frame associates VOA and its sibling brands (particularly Radio Free Europe) with Cold War-era nobiliary intentions to such a degree that they're willing to overlook decades of documentation that reveal a more pernicious M.O. that would warrant deprecation for any other outlet. The second RfC was correctly closed by Voorts as a consensus for Additional Considerations. However, the !votes of many editors were still and undeniably bizarre. Faced with a dozen points from RS showing RFE/RLs historic and ongoing infiltration by intelligence services, its politicized editorial focus, its routine disciplining of editorial staff for reporting that challenged the wild global ambitions of its sponsor, and its history of broadcasting fabrications and falsehoods, many editors still simply lodged a simple and perfunctory "meh - don't see any reason not to trust it *shrug*". I've been on the wrong end of many RfCs and I can usually comprehend the perspective of the other "side" even if I don't agree with it. This one, though, left me utterly befuddled. Chetsford (talk) 06:15, 11 May 2025 (UTC)

::::::::I agree entirely fwiw although as one of Wikipedia's loudest VOA critics that probably is no surprise. Simonm223 (talk) 13:19, 12 May 2025 (UTC)

::::::{{tq|"You seemed to imply no secondary sources exist"}} I don't see how I did, and iif I gave that impression it has nothing to do with my comment.

::::::{{tq|"that consensus occurred largely due to !voters similarly adopting a See No Evil, Hear No Evil approach"}} I find that it's best just to take editors at there word, rather than trying to guess some secondary meaning.

::::::My point was (only) that if you believe that you have enough evidence to start a new RFC you could, and that I didn't want to get into discussing prior RFCs. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 10:08, 11 May 2025 (UTC)

:The VOA's last story is from March. If the VOA is just syndicating stories from One America News Network then the source is still One America News Network. It is a waste of time to bother editing the reliability of a source based on things that may happen. Traumnovelle (talk) 21:27, 10 May 2025 (UTC)

::Sort of. It makes sense for us to update our WP:RSP entry to highlight this, since it's the sort of thing that many editors may miss. And it doesn't make sense for us to leave a green RSP entry with no warnings that only refers to a VOA that no longer exists - it ought to be updated to note the change in order to avoid confusion. --Aquillion (talk) 19:24, 11 May 2025 (UTC)

Shouldn't there be an entry for the [https://cbc.ca CBC]? CoolDino1 (talk) 20:54, 8 May 2025 (UTC)

:Long live the disambig of course regarding CBC. And here is the page Canadian Broadcasting Corporation itself. Yesterday, all my dreams... (talk) 21:45, 8 May 2025 (UTC)

::Only need an entry if people have questioned it a lot. As far as I know, it hasn’t been. Blueboar (talk) 22:05, 8 May 2025 (UTC)

:::Okay, I get it. CoolDino1 (talk) 18:49, 9 May 2025 (UTC)

::::Yeah, CBC's reputation is generally good enough that it's rare for it to be brought to WP:RS/N so it's not a perennial source largely on the basis of a good reputation. Simonm223 (talk) 13:20, 12 May 2025 (UTC)

How much should we discount work by academics operating in countries with low academic freedom when their findings support the position of their country's rulers? Should we take a similar approach as the one for state media used for WP:CHINADAILY? Superb Owl (talk) 21:54, 9 May 2025 (UTC)

:Including or not including the United States? --GRuban (talk) 22:33, 9 May 2025 (UTC)

::Ruban, why just limit it to the US? Also UK, France, Spain... And also let us recall that the world changes- The US has changed over the years, and may change more, just as Spain, Hungry, Poland and Portugal have changed. Yesterday, all my dreams... (talk) 22:48, 9 May 2025 (UTC)

:Superb, in my view the answer is "yes, absolutely so" but I think the issue goes beyond political items. When I used to "wear a younger man's clothes" I recall an argument (Gerald Wick, "Activism with feeling" New Scientist and Science Journal 11 February 1971) that even funding for scientific issues is affected by the political stance in the country. The case for China (also Russia, Hungry, etc) is obvious. As a side issue, compare what different Wiki languages say about the manipulation of Renminbi. It would be a truism to say that "truth does not change by language" but on the internet (Wiki included) and the press it does. An unpleasant fact, but a fact. Yesterday, all my dreams... (talk) 22:56, 9 May 2025 (UTC)

::{{tpq|funding for scientific issues is affected by the political stance in the country}} - True. I saw a show which talked about how U.S. scientists observing penguins many decades ago observed what they would have called "homosexual" type behavior, but they never wrote down any of those observations in their log books because they felt that if they did the government(s)/legislators which funded that research would cancel their grants. ---Avatar317^(talk) 05:54, 10 May 2025 (UTC)

• I'm going to go out on a limb here, and suggest that making uncontextualised a priori judgments on the academic output of entire societies is beyond the scope of this board. Case-by-case basis.Boynamedsue (talk) 08:13, 10 May 2025 (UTC)
• :I agree. I find this to be a deeply uncomfortable line of discussion. Wikipedia is already far too often treated as a de-facto Ameripedia with the POVs of people from rival countries to the USA frequently treated as intrinsically less neutral than the pro-American POV. Taking that out of the realm of media and attacking the reliability of academics on the basis of their country of origin seems like it would make this problem far, far worse. Simonm223 (talk) 13:23, 12 May 2025 (UTC)
• It's definitely a concern, and it might be worth noting that concern somewhere in our guidelines, but it has to be handled on a case-by-case basis. Things I'd look for would include how it's covered, received, and used outside of the nation in question, how the journal or scientific establishment in the country in general are covered internationally, and so on. I'd also look at whether there's evidence that people are adhering to the bare minimum legal requirements, vs. actively seeking to please their government by broadcasting their official position. It would also impact WP:DUE weight - if the government funds a thousand studies saying that their official position is correct, and secondary coverage makes it clear that the process used for this funding lacks independence, that's a valid reason to drastically reduce the weight given to those papers. Conversely, the lack of papers in a particular region on something the government forbids obviously can't be used to establish that it lacks weight. --Aquillion (talk) 13:50, 11 May 2025 (UTC)
• I agree with the other editors who emphasize that this is best treated on a case by case basis. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:40, 12 May 2025 (UTC)

Can primary sources be used to represent an organisation's stated position? As I understand it, WP:PRIMARY allows the use of a primary source for "straightforward, descriptive statements of facts that can be verified by any educated person with access to the primary source but without further, specialized knowledge". WP:ABOUTSELF states that self-published sources "may be used as sources of information about themselves, usually in articles about themselves or their activities". I relied on these policies to present an organization's position with proper attribution in the section titled "Positions". I cited an official statement from SEGM to reflect their attributed opinion (not a statement of fact) that they believe puberty blockers should be limited to clinical trial settings: [https://segm.org/NICE_gender_medicine_systematic_review_finds_poor_quality_evidence]. This was removed citing WP:PRIMARY: [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Society_for_Evidence-Based_Gender_Medicine&diff=1289556593&oldid=1289547900] But how else can an organization's official position be cited, if not from its own statements or documents? Since this is not the first time this happens, I would like to ask a third opinion on the matter. JonJ937 (talk) 09:35, 10 May 2025 (UTC)

:This seems to be an appropriate use of a primary source. However, this relates to a topic that seems to be in flux… positions change frequently. Thus, the source might be outdated (you should check whether SEGM has any issued subsequent statements that might indicate a change in their position). Blueboar (talk) 10:08, 10 May 2025 (UTC)

::Thanks for the comment. I checked their website and couldn't find any recent updates to their position. They normally state their stance with wording like 'It is SEGM's position that...'", or include a separate section titled "SEGM Position". JonJ937 (talk) 16:49, 10 May 2025 (UTC)

:Even for an organization's official position, it is usually best to have not just the primary source but also high-quality secondary sources to put it into the right context. The question is what is WP:DUE and whether it is reasonable to include (even attributed) medical misinformation in spite of WP:MEDRS. Our article on Andrew Wakefield does not go out and report claims from his pro-viruses activism as "opinion" either. —Kusma (talk) 12:46, 10 May 2025 (UTC)

::Seconding this. I believe that citations aren't just for verifying whether something is true, they're for verifying why it's relevant. If it's not covered in secondary sources, that calls its overall relevance into doubt. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 🛸 04:53, 11 May 2025 (UTC)

:WP:ABOUTSELF details can come from primary sources, but remember that is a limited exception. As Kusma said we wouldn't rely on Wakefield for certain ABOUTSELF details because they would likely be self-serving or exceptional claims. SEGM is a contentious organisation, so relying on only it's self statements alone would likely be a NPOV issue. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 15:58, 10 May 2025 (UTC)

::Thanks for your comments. I'm working on editing the "Positions" section, which is meant to reflect the official views of the organization. I think the most accurate way to do that is by using the organization’s own statements, rather than relying on how others interpret them. In my understanding, WP:ABOUTSELF permits to use self-published sources to reflect the person's or entity's own opinions. SEGM’s official position is that the U.S. should limit the use of puberty blockers to clinical trials until there’s more evidence about their effectiveness and long-term safety. I linked their statement above. This is a widely debated topic, and medical organizations around the world have different views. However, there is a general international trend toward taking a more cautious approach, with the WHO acknowledging that "the evidence base for children and adolescents is limited and variable regarding the longer-term outcomes of gender affirming care for children and adolescents". [https://cdn.who.int/media/docs/default-source/hq-hiv-hepatitis-and-stis-library/tgd_faq_16012024.pdf] Of course, if broader context on the ongoing international debate over the use of puberty blockers is needed, we can include that as well, along with the organization's official position. I have no issues with that. I just believe that the organization's own views need to be accurately reflected. JonJ937 (talk) 16:43, 10 May 2025 (UTC)

:::I think the problem you have is {{tq|"which is meant to reflect the official views of the organization"}} is simply not true. In all cases secondary sources are preferred. The article might include how an organisation describes itself, but if there are reliable secondary sources that also discuss the topic then they can't be ignored. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 17:48, 10 May 2025 (UTC)

:With SEGM, absolutely not, per WP:FRINGE:

:* WP:FRIND: {{Tq|The best sources to use when describing fringe theories, and in determining their notability and prominence, are independent reliable sources that are outside the sourcing ecosystem of the fringe theory itself, as such sources are necessary to determine the relationship of a fringe theory to mainstream scholarly discourse. In particular, the relative space that an article devotes to different aspects of a fringe theory should follow from consideration primarily of mainstream secondary sources. Points that are not discussed in these mainstream sources should not be given any space in articles.}}

:* {{tq|While proper attribution of a perspective to a source satisfies the minimal requirements of Wikipedia's neutral point of view, there is an additional editorial responsibility for including only those quotes and perspectives which further the aim of creating a verifiable and neutral Wikipedia article. Quotes that are controversial or potentially misleading need to be properly contextualized to avoid unintentional endorsement or deprecation. What is more, just because a quote is accurate and verifiably attributed to a particular source does not mean that the quote must necessarily be included in an article}}

:* WP:PROFRINGE: {{tq|Efforts of fringe-theory inventors to promote their theories, such as the offering of self-published material as references, are unacceptable: Wikipedia is not an advertising venue. (See also Links normally to be avoided, Conflict of interest, Autobiography guidelines.) For this reason, notability guidelines for fringe topics are stricter than general notability guidelines: the notability of a fringe theory must be judged by statements from verifiable and reliable sources, not the proclamations of its adherents.}}

:Per WP:ABOUTSELF, the material must be {{tq|neither unduly self-serving nor an exceptional claim}} and {{tq|not involve claims about third parties}}. This fails on both counts, not even including the fact RSN's last discussion on SEGM found {{tq|It is fairly clear from this discussion that this advocacy organisation is not reliable for facts about transgender topics (including medical topics), or such is the consensus here. WP:ABOUTSELF exception applies}} [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_393#Society_for_Evidence-Based_Gender_Medicine]

:The quote you added was FRINGE nonsense put into wikivoice: {{tq|SEGM believes that due to the substantial uncertainties surrounding the long-term risks and benefits of hormonal treatments, any invasive and irreversible interventions should be limited to clinical trials, following comprehensive psychological evaluations and a transparent informed consent process}}[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?diff=1289547900&oldid=1287606134&title=Society_for_Evidence-Based_Gender_Medicine]

:* This puts in wikivoice, cited to SEGM with no RS, that there are "substantial uncertainties"

:* This puts in wikivoice, cited to SEGM with no RS, that treatments are "invasive and irreversible"

:* This puts in wikivoice, cited to SEGM with no RS, that they call for a "transparent informed consent process"

:** According to them, this means that informed consent {{tq|must accurately disclose the limited prognostic ability of the gender dysphoria/gender incongruence diagnosis for young people}} because as they say earlier {{tq|Studies consistently show that the vast majority of patients with childhood-onset gender distress who are not treated with "gender-affirmative" social transition or medical interventions grow up to be LGB adults.}} - which is a piece of misinformation known as the desistance myth

:* Every single WP:MEDORG in the US thinks this is bullshit

:Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 17:22, 10 May 2025 (UTC)

::What about MEDORGS outside the US? Springee (talk) 18:44, 10 May 2025 (UTC)

::We are not discussing whether an opinion is fringe or mainstream; we are discussing whether it is appropriate to cite an organisation's stated position with proper attribution. I believe Wikipedia’s guidelines allow this, regardless of whether we personally agree with the opinion. Regarding the "substantial uncertainties," this debate is indeed not limited to the United States. I cited the WHO, the organization that usually reflects global medical consensus, which states that the evidence for gender-affirming care in children is variable and limited. The European Academy of Paediatrics has stated: "The fundamental question of whether biomedical treatments (including hormone therapy) for gender dysphoria are effective remains contested". [https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/38374879/] Even in the United States, the American Society of Plastic Surgeons notes that "the existing evidence base is viewed as low quality/low certainty". [https://www.plasticsurgery.org/for-medical-professionals/publications/psn-extra/news/asps-statement-to-press-regarding-gender-surgery-for-adolescents] The NHS in the UK also acknowledges uncertainty (the same word as SEGM uses) about the risks of long-term cross-sex hormone treatment and lists possible permanent complications. [https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/gender-dysphoria/treatment/] These are not fringe opinions, In fact, WP:MEDRS advises us to pay attention to positions of both the WHO and NHS. I could provide many more sources, but it is clear that SEGM’s position on puberty blockers aligns with a broader shift in international consensus. It has long been argued that the U.S. is becoming a global outlier in not taking a more cautious approach to the medical treatment of gender dysphoria: [https://www.wsj.com/politics/u-s-becomes-transgender-care-outlier-as-more-in-europe-urge-caution-6c70b5e0] JonJ937 (talk) 07:44, 11 May 2025 (UTC)

:::The opinions of SEGM have already found to be fringe on this the WP:FRINGE/N board previously. We don't need to establish that again as it is established that they are a fringe group who publish fringe opinions. As such WP:FRIND most certainly does apply as per YFNS. Simonm223 (talk) 18:36, 12 May 2025 (UTC)

:I think ActivelyDisinterested is correct here. I asked a similar question years back with respect to the NRA. The NRA's views on things like red flag laws shouldn't be viewed as factual views on the topic. However, they are the view of a gun rights organization and thus, within the NRA article, their aboutself stance on the topic may be quite relevant. Certainly if a claim from a source conflicts with the SEGM's stated position that should be noted. In this case, if a RS says, SEGM's stance is X but the SEGM's official position is !X then aboutself can be used. What shouldn't be done is if no RSs bring up a position SEGM has stated but we quote their position anyway. Springee (talk) 18:44, 10 May 2025 (UTC)

:Yes, this includes cases such as the WP:ADL when they describe something as antisemitic. Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 05:12, 11 May 2025 (UTC)

::As I mentioned above, SEGM's position that puberty blockers should be limited to clinical trials is consistent with the recommendations of international and national health authorities and medical organizations, particularly in the UK, Finland, Sweden, and others. So, can we include a sentence like "SEGM believes that puberty blockers should be limited to clinical trials", linking to their official statement? Also, since there is an ongoing international debate about the safety and effectiveness of puberty blockers, should we include an overview of that debate in the article? If so, what would be the best format? Should we follow SEGM’s position with the views of major international and U.S. medical organizations and point to the divergence in opinions? JonJ937 (talk) 08:04, 11 May 2025 (UTC)

:The main concerns here about due weight and npov are not being satisfied by your belief that SEGM's views are similar to that of some national medorgs. I understand that you really want to show off SEGM's views, however if secondary rs don't write about them, why should we.LunaHasArrived (talk) 09:28, 11 May 2025 (UTC)

::It is not my belief. This is what Undark Magazine writes:

::''On key issues, the organization’s views were increasingly aligned with those of several major European medical institutions, which were beginning to restrict access to puberty blockers and cross-sex hormones. [https://undark.org/2024/05/20/pediatric-transgender-care-contentious-segm/]

::''

::SEGM advocates for similar restrictions. How does WP:WEIGHT prevent including an organization's own views in a section titled "Positions" in the article about that organization? The article exists to describe the organization's activities and viewpoints. If we leave out its main position, how is that neutral? JonJ937 (talk) 10:28, 12 May 2025 (UTC)

:::Because it's a crackpot view per WP:FRINGE. Simonm223 (talk) 18:38, 12 May 2025 (UTC)

:People raise important points about WP:DUE that often militate against the use of primary sources as you describe. That said, there are definitely situations where those concerns are satisfied and it is appropriate to cite an advocacy organisation (that would not be RS in general) about its own opinion. In those situations, SEGM is reliable for its own position. The due weight debate can happen on the article talk page or WP:NPOV/N if needed. Samuelshraga (talk) 12:05, 11 May 2025 (UTC)

: More sources.

{{quote frame |In 2022, the Swedish government’s National Board of Health and Welfare said hormone treatments for minors “should be provided within a research context” and offered “only in exceptional cases,” while adding that the “risks of puberty suppressing treatment … and gender-affirming hormonal treatment currently outweigh the possible benefits.” In Norway, the country’s Healthcare Investigation Board recommended in part that gender-affirming care treatments such as puberty blockers be defined as experimental. Meanwhile in France, the Académie Nationale de Médecine in February 2022 recommended the “greatest reserve” when considering puberty blockers or hormone treatments due to possible side effects such as “impact on growth, bone weakening, risk of infertility” and others, according to a translation. [https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/articles/2023-07-12/why-european-countries-are-rethinking-gender-affirming-care-for-minors]}}

{{quote frame |In 2020, Finland’s health agency restricted the care by recommending psychotherapy as the primary treatment for adolescents with gender dysphoria. Two years later, Sweden restricted hormone treatments to “exceptional cases.” In December, regional health authorities in Norway designated youth gender medicine as a “treatment under trial,” meaning hormones will be prescribed only to adolescents in clinical trials. And in Denmark, new guidelines being finalized this year will limit hormone treatments to transgender adolescents who have experienced dysphoria since early childhood. [https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/09/health/europe-transgender-youth-hormone-treatments.html]}}

Also [https://www.euronews.com/health/2024/12/13/the-uk-is-the-latest-country-to-ban-puberty-blockers-for-trans-kids-why-is-europe-restrict] [https://www.academie-medecine.fr/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/22.2.25-Communique-PCRA-19-Gender-identity-ENG.pdf]--JonJ937 (talk) 08:54, 11 May 2025 (UTC)

File:Symbol watching blue lashes high contrast.svg You are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals) § Split "additional considerations apply"/"marginally reliable" from "no consensus" at RSP. Aaron Liu (talk) 16:06, 10 May 2025 (UTC)

What is the reliability of https://maorinews.com specifically this article [https://maorinews.com/writings/papers/other/pakeha.htm]?

It is being used on the pakeha article. It should not be confused with Te Ao Maori News [https://www.teaonews.co.nz/] Traumnovelle (talk) 21:20, 10 May 2025 (UTC)

• I am of the opinion that is a self-published website with no evidence of any reliability or use by other sources that'd establish it as an RS. I also don't believe it is a newspaper despite the name. Traumnovelle (talk) 21:23, 10 May 2025 (UTC)

:: It appears to include the archive of a periodical published between 1988 and 1990 https://putatara.net/about/ What statement sourced to it are you querying? Per the instructions at the top of this page "supply the source, the article it is used in, and the claim it supports." Daveosaurus (talk) 09:40, 11 May 2025 (UTC)

:: The article at maorinews was just a draft. The citation has now been replaced with a citation to the final published article from the University of Auckland research repository. Nurg (talk) 09:59, 11 May 2025 (UTC)

:::I'm struggling to figure out if that is a peer-reveiwed publication; according to the National Library (https://natlib.govt.nz/records/21982578) 'They provide a forum for the dissemination and discussion of educational ideas, and present research and scholarship being undertaken by members of the Faculty.' Traumnovelle (talk) 02:49, 12 May 2025 (UTC)

:The link appears to be broken, the correct one is Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Novels#RfC on book review aggregators for anyone interested. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 10:19, 11 May 2025 (UTC)

::Apologies for the error! Thank you for the correction, I have updated the link. Οἶδα (talk) 19:17, 11 May 2025 (UTC)

On a lot of pages related to classical history, it is not uncommon to see direct citations to ancient writers such as Herodotus and Plutarch, often taking the claims of ancient writers as face value. (See Ptolemy IV Philopator for an example of direct heavy use of classical sources). Citations to classical writers are also found on a lot of other pages. In my opinion, uncritically citing writers who lived well over a thousand (or two) years ago is pretty dubious, and ideally instead we should really be citing the opinions of modern (or at least within the last century or so) scholars who comment on the remarks and claims of these writers, and citing directly should only be done very sparingly and extremely cautiously (i.e. always attributing to the writer in question), if at all, as it is easy to engage in WP:OR using them. I think it would be good to have something at WP:RSP about it like we have for religious texts (WP:RSPSCRIPTURE). Hemiauchenia (talk) 22:47, 11 May 2025 (UTC)

:Full agreement from yours truly. And I would extennd the time frame and include sources such as Galen. And given that some of the "supposed" writings only survive in translations and later quotations, the whole issue is often less than clear. I mentioned Galen, given that there is even a question as to how many Galens there were. Regarding Plutarch, given that at times he differs from Suetonius, just quoting him alone is obviously a mistake. We need modern comments on these ancient works, for sure. Yesterday, all my dreams... (talk) 00:59, 12 May 2025 (UTC)

:While adding commentary or analysis from modern scholars is of course always ideal (as is simply using modern, scholarly sources in place of, or in addition to, ancient ones, wherever possible), I would point out that the "dubiousness" of using ancient sources on their own doesn't necessarily apply across the board: mythology is an exception, as it isn't something that ancient authors can be "wrong" about. The usage of such sources in a mythological context is of course still subject to WP:PRIMARY, but I say this just because I wouldn't want to end up with a guideline that inadvertently prohibits directly citing Apollodorus for the claim "Apollodorus calls Zeus the son of Cronus", for example.

:But yes, I would agree with the general point here, especially in the context of historical events. I would also note the existence of the essay Wikipedia:Primary sources in classics. – Michael Aurel (talk) 01:52, 12 May 2025 (UTC)

::{{tq|I wouldn't want to end up with a guideline that inadvertently prohibits directly citing Apollodorus for the claim "Apollodorus calls Zeus the son of Cronus", for example.}}

::Even in this sort of seemingly simple case there are several caveats that editors would do well to be aware of, however:

::* Apollodoros might support the claim that "Apollodorus calls Zeus the son of Cronos", but we need to be careful to attribute those claims to Apollodorus; the fact that a surviving source gives one particular version of a myth does not mean that was The Canonical Version. Apollodorus says that Asopus was the son of Oceanus; other sources say that it was the son of Zeus or Poseidon.

::* Especially for a subject like Zeus, for which there is a lot to say, the fact that a story is told by one author does not necessarily mean that it's important enough to include on its own; we need to base which stories about Zeus are important to include primarily on secondary sources (though this is more a question of WP:WEIGHT than WP:RS)

::* If you are going to cite an ancient source, don't rely on the 19th-century translations which are freely available online. In the case of poetry, translational fidelity was frequently sacrificed for metrical reasons; in the case of the fragmentary lyric poets editors and translators just made stuff up to fill in the gaps; more recent discoveries or scholarship have sometimes changed the agreed-upon text. Otherwise you end up with: "In the Ode to Aphrodite, Sappho describes Aphrodite as riding a chariot pulled by swans (Sappho 1 Edmonds)" – the Greek actually says the chariot is pulled by sparrows but in Edmonds' edition he just substitutes swans. Even when the editor is more generally reliable than the famously bad Edmonds, scholarship moves on: "Sappho dedicates a hymn to Kypris and the Nereids (Sappho fr.5 Voigt)" is entirely verifiable by checking the cited edition – and there are 50 years of scholarship for which this is the agreed text – but a 2014 discovery proved that the beginning of the poem doesn't mention Kypris at all.

::Caeciliusinhorto-public (talk) 08:55, 12 May 2025 (UTC)

:::Certainly. I agree with every part of that. – Michael Aurel (talk) 09:11, 12 May 2025 (UTC)

::::Yes, and I don't mean to suggest that you aren't aware of these caveats. I thought it was worth explicitly putting in the discussion, though, because I see all of these issues in our articles. It is both in our older content (which was often either copied wholesale from out-of-copyright encyclopedias or gradually accumulated by random users adding whatever details about a subject they could easily find online) and in newer content added by enthusiastic new users who clearly haven't thought too deeply about these issues (in many cases I suspect young people without any academic training in a humanities discipline and without access to sources other than popular history books and easily-available translations of the major primary sources aimed at a general rather than academic audience). Caeciliusinhorto-public (talk) 09:22, 12 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::Yes, all good. In some sense, all of those points derive from other guidelines or from general good practice (WP:INTEXT, and the general principle that statements which aren't factual or widely agreed upon should typically be attributed to their source; WP:WEIGHT; and WP:RS and WP:RSAGE), but they're all good points, and it's worth articulating them in a discussion which might result in a guideline being written up. I think I was treating them all as implicit truths (and I wouldn't say that any of them necessarily go against the permissibility of citing ancient sources for simple mythological statements, as the same points – or slightly more generalised versions of the same points – would probably apply equally to a number of other kinds of content), though maybe they aren't quite as "implicit" as I think they are, seeing as it would be entirely accurate to say that the majority of our Greek mythological articles currently don't adhere to those principles.

:::::One could probably add a handful of other points (or caveats) to the above:

:::::* Primary sources can be misinterpreted: texts can have corruptions and lacunae, and in some cases the original work may simply have been poorly written (such as the Fabulae), resulting in the translated text being stilted or difficult to interpret. Some readers might even be thrown off by flowery translations. This is aside from basic content misunderstandings such as not realising a name is an epithet for a deity, or not knowing whether the words "Ocean" and "Night" merely represent figurative language or refer to specific deities.

:::::* You should of course also make sure you actually read a primary source before citing it, per WP:SWYRT, and because some secondary sources – I'm looking here at the DGRBM, in particular – can get their citations wrong at times. There can also be discrepancies between the source itself and how it's presented in a scholarly discussion (the swapping of Greek and Roman names of gods would be a common example). A website such as Theoi.com also has the pernicious tendency of adding certain information (especially names of mythological figures) in square or round brackets to passages of quoted text, when this information isn't present in the original.

:::::* Knowing the age of certain sources – as well having some general contextual awareness about them – is also important. Repeating a genealogy from Tzetzes (and citing only him for the claim) as though it is representative of ancient Greek belief is misleading. This is not to mention the issues with repeating, without context, the glowing endorsements of the Greek gods found in Pseudo-Clement, or the "creative" mythological material in Natalis Comes.

:::::* What's discussed at WP:CLPRIM#Transmission (which you've indirectly touched upon) is also worth noting, as I suspect it's something that most editors aren't aware of. "Hesiod, Theogony 600", unaccompanied by any sort of bibliographic information, doesn't refer to an exact, definite text, so making clear which edition or translation you're working from is essential.

:::::– Michael Aurel (talk) 13:20, 12 May 2025 (UTC)

:Careful citation clearly distinguishes between what sources, ancient or modern, have to say about a subject, and what we know to be the case. There should be no problem in quoting or citing Greek and Roman writers for what they say, provided that their opinions aren't treated uncritically. Indeed, in history generally, and classics in particular, most modern references rely primarily on what historical sources report, and so those sources need to be cited, provided that the citations aren't needlessly cumulative or misleading. There's not much more frustrating than seeing a claim about historical events made by a modern writer with a strong opinion about a subject, but having no way to determine what the sources being analyzed are.

:Naturally, anything that goes beyond mere citation should come directly from secondary sources to whatever extent is possible. Sometimes secondary sources are cited generally in articles that rely heavily on extensive treatments from just one or two of them, even though they may cite several different ancient authors internally. This can give the false impression that an article depends chiefly on primary sources, but the fault here is with the manner in which the sources are cited, not the fact that they're cited.

:My rule of thumb is to cite the most authoritative sources for each point, both ancient and modern, and prune the ones that have the least detailed or helpful information when they become cumulative. Generally ancient sources are good for bare facts and what the ancients knew or thought they knew about things; modern sources are good for compiling and analyzing those facts and making broad statements about them.

:These sources should be complementary, not exclusive; part of the value of detailed citations is allowing readers to find the ultimate sources and consider them in light of what later writers have to say on a topic—and given that classics has been a major subject of scholarship since the late 1700's, opinions vary widely and have changed over time—sometimes repeatedly, along with the availability and accessibility of sources, both ancient and modern. When carefully written, an article will make clear both what the original sources for any statement are, and what contemporary scholarship has to say about it. When an article fails to do this, the remedy is to supply what is missing in the ordinary course of editing. P Aculeius (talk) 02:25, 12 May 2025 (UTC)

:It's an ongoing problem, yeah. I agree with what others have said so far. And I find that mostly the people at WP:CGR and other history-related wikiprojects usually have a pretty good sense of this, but there are a lot of contributions still out there from (mostly) newer editors who didn't necessarily come from an academic history background who don't understand this and don't necessarily have it explained to them before they make a good number of contributions.

:A couple caveats:

:1. Though we should cite modern scholarship wherever possible, primary sources are important as well and often we'll want to cite both, so it's not always the best idea to remove them. In the absence of a handy secondary source to cite, I often find that it's possible to reword a claim such that it's *not* wrong per se even if it's factually inaccurate. e.g. If I write {{tq|Pherecydes of Syros drank from a magic well and predicted an earthquake}} in WP:Wikivoice like it's totally normal and cite Diogenes Laertius, that's a potential problem. If on the other hand I say {{tq|Diogenes Laertius states that Pherecydes of Syros drank from a magic well and predicted an earthquake}} instead and tag it with Template: Primary source inline, that's not quite as bad, the source does in fact verify that Diogenes said that. Ideally it would be prefaced by a modern source saying something like {{tq|Several miraculous and apocryphal deeds were attributed to Pherecydes by ancient biographers...}}. It can be more difficult when we have primary sources making less fantastical claims that also happen to be wrong, like when someone was born or who their teacher was, but in those cases if we *know* it's wrong it shouldn't be too hard to dig up a modern source that says so.

:2. Many of our articles were copied from public domain sources such as the 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica and Dictionary of Greek and Roman Biography and Mythology, which do frequently cite primary sources without any accompanying secondary source (other than themselves). These sources, while written by some of the best scholars of their time, are generally rather outdated and often far more credulous than modern scholars, and most of those articles do need to be updated. I tend to think it's better than nothing in most cases, though if you encounter anything that's copied from there, make sure the article has the relevant attribution template, such as Template:DGRBM; many of them have been removed or were never placed on the articles in the first place and in addition to being important to not commit plagiarism, it helps to be able to track them to have the template on there.

:I'd also second the essay Wikipedia:Primary sources in classics as a great resource to point people to if you get pushback; it's not policy but it articulates the problems pretty clearly. Perhaps there's something that could be done to put a condensed version of that on WP:RSP? Psychastes (talk) 02:46, 12 May 2025 (UTC)

::Thanks for linking Wikipedia:Primary sources in classics that's a really fantastic in-depth essay on the topic that I wholeheartedly agree with. I would support AD's suggestion below to link to this essay at WP:RSP. Hemiauchenia (talk) 13:07, 12 May 2025 (UTC)

::Separately, I think that in a lot of cases with these stories they really should be in the narrative present to indicate that they are stories. Ifly6 (talk) 17:31, 12 May 2025 (UTC)

:I don't know if a specific guidance is needed, but I do agree that we should rarely cite ancient texts on their own. WP:PRIMARY is already a relevant guideline here. Traumnovelle (talk) 02:52, 12 May 2025 (UTC)

:It depends on what the source is being used on. Wikipedia:Primary sources in classics gives some helpful information. But in general there are divisions in articles about what a classical author states and what scholars today think about the matter. Context usually matters. WP:PRIMARY is helpful with handling Classical sources. I also know that there are modern commentaries from scholars on Classical sources for example, on [https://books.google.com/books/about/Caesar_s_Civil_War.html?id=MTPKIGmCzMwC&printsec=frontcover&source=kp_read_button&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0#v=onepage&q&f=false Julius Caesar's "Civil War"]. Also I find that many of the books that are used as primary sources such as from Loeb Classical Library, they tend to have introductions by translators or experts which explain and interpret the Classical author's text, giving important context and secondary source material essentially before the primary source material. For example, [https://books.google.com/books?id=eSKTvJDrr5kC&pg=PR9&dq=plato+complete+works&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiz4v-0uZ2NAxU0LkQIHSM_IncQ6AF6BAgIEAM#v=onepage&q=plato%20complete%20works&f=false Plato's Complete Works]. Sometimes there are footnotes by the translator or expert on the primary source text too giving modern commentary as you read the ancient authors works. Ramos1990 (talk) 07:33, 12 May 2025 (UTC)

:The idea of having a summary of (and link to) WP:Primary sources in classics sounds like a good idea. Such sources shouldn't be used without attribution. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 09:02, 12 May 2025 (UTC)

::Concur. WP:PRIMARY is the guiding document and the essay about primary sources in classics is a good one. There may be times when it's apropos to include a quote. For instance if you are describing something Plato said directly you might, you know, quote Plato. However beyond that limited use case it is best to cite living classics scholars. It's a vibrant academic discipline and there's plenty of contemporary work. Simonm223 (talk) 13:14, 12 May 2025 (UTC)

:::(Also I wish I knew about this essay when I was engaged in that dispute over Vinland a while back - it would have saved me a lot of typing.) Simonm223 (talk) 13:15, 12 May 2025 (UTC)

:I think it is OK, as long as modern scholarship does not challenge the claim, if so. Go with the modern source. Slatersteven (talk) 13:22, 12 May 2025 (UTC)

::Agree with those who mentioned WP:ATTRIBUTION too. Ramos1990 (talk) 13:57, 12 May 2025 (UTC)

::The (imo pretty obvious) source, pun unintended, of a lot of the bad articles that the OP talks of are inexperienced or negligent editors deciding to add material to the encyclopaedia by turning to Livy or Dion Hal first and then just paraphrasing whatever translation was on hand. This was really evidently with the pre-rewrite Founding of Rome and Overthrow of the Roman monarchy articles (or the current Pyrrhic War). Setting a P&G that simply precludes doing that would drive such editors to better sources that would be preferable not only for the encyclopaedia but also for their own self-development. Ifly6 (talk) 17:23, 12 May 2025 (UTC)

:::No issue with the idea of a notice or some such. Slatersteven (talk) 17:26, 12 May 2025 (UTC)

: Many of the commenters here contributed to WP:CLPRIM, as did I. I would support an addition like WP:RSPSCRIPTURE which links to CLPRIM, along with essentially the same guidance that directs primary sources be used only with citation to reliable secondary sources and prohibits editors' analysis as WP:OR. I also completely agree with {{u|Caeciliusinhorto}}'s comments on transmission, which in another form were incorporated into CLPRIM: it establishes also the folly of just quoting or citing primary sources for what an internet edition appears prima facie to say.

: At the same time, I see absolutely no need to banish parallel primary source citations (eg {{tq|MRR 1.123, citing Livy 1.23, Suetonius Julius 12.3, Dio 1.2.3, and Plutarch Caesar 1.2.3}}). Such parallel citations are of great use to specialist readers – especially so when they are complete surveys of all the relevant sources – and I think we should encourage their inclusion; editors, however, should not seek to create their own surveys: only secondary sources can tell us, usually by speaking for themselves, whether a citation is due or not. Ifly6 (talk) 17:17, 12 May 2025 (UTC)

:Yes its inappropriate to provide a truly outdated source as a stand alone citation, at best its simply not due if it hasn't been mentioned by a modern writer. I think the line is also a lot closer to a hundred years than a thousand or two... Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:36, 12 May 2025 (UTC)

:Looking at Ptolemy IV Philopator in a bit more detail now, I'm not sure if that page actually has an issue; most of the paragraphs with primary source citations in them seem to cite {{tq|Hölbl, Günther (2001). A History of the Ptolemaic Empire. London & New York: Routledge. ISBN 0415201454}} at the end. Routledge is certainly a reputable publisher and Hölbl seems to be a reputable Egyptologist. If I were to nitpick, it would be better to have more than one modern scholarly source supporting the majority of the claims, but admittedly I also don't have the background to assess if Hölbl is enough of an authority that it doesn't matter. Taken under the assumption that all of the secondary source citations at the ends of the paragraphs support the primary sources cited, I don't think there's any glaring issues with that article, it looks pretty close to the ideal we're describing, though it may help if anyone else wants to take a closer look and weigh in. Psychastes (talk) 18:06, 12 May 2025 (UTC)

::If the citations there should be taken to mean {{tq|this content is supported by Holbl 2001 p ### which cites Polybius #.## and Suchandsuchius ##.##}}, they should be joined up into the same citation, and the text should convey that dependency, rather than be put in separate citations like {{!tq|Polybius #.## and Suchandsuchius ##.## // Holbl 2001 p ###}}. I haven't read Holbl 2001, so I don't know whether they should be joined up or not. Perhaps we could ping or tag the original author(s) for clarification? Ifly6 (talk) 18:14, 12 May 2025 (UTC)

:::Looks like the main contributor to the article is @Furius, who has been active recently and might remember how he cited the claims in Ptolemy IV Philopator, though admittedly most of the article seems to primarily date from 2018. In general my default assumption with this type of citation style would be that it's probably parallel given that all of these secondary citations are at the ends of paragraphs (which is technically all that's required), though I certainly wouldn't change it to be explicitly so without checking the source. Psychastes (talk) 18:32, 12 May 2025 (UTC)

::Yeah, perhaps that page is not the best example if I've just misread the citation style. I think Demetrius of Phalerum is considerably worse, given that it almost entirely relies on classical sources (note the 1925 source is actually a translation of Diogenes Laertius who lived around 200 AD) Hemiauchenia (talk) 18:34, 12 May 2025 (UTC)

See also [https://archives.somnolescent.net/web/mari_v3/blog/2020/04/please-dont-use-geocities-ws/ this blog].

What the whut is that abomination? Is it a reliable mirror/archive? A spam-infested cesspool? Something in between? Should we blacklist it? Deprecated it? Allow it? Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 15:29, 12 May 2025 (UTC)

:It appears to be a web host. Would it not just be a WP:SPS? Ifly6 (talk) 18:16, 12 May 2025 (UTC)

:Holy crapsicle. I tried the first link I found in this search[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?go=Go&search=insource%3A%22Geocities.ws%22&title=Special%3ASearch&ns0=1] and it nearly crashed my phone. The underlying material could be reliable, either as WP:SPS or as hosted WP:PRIMARY sources, but if anything the URL should be blacklisted. The Internet Archive appears to have backed up these links in a more functional state, adding archives and marking them as deviated could be the way to go. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 18:48, 12 May 2025 (UTC)