Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/dash drafting/discussion

I have included my own opinions so we can see where we disagree. If we all disagree with the same point in the same direction, we may be able to find a new point where we agree; otherwise our starting point should be what hardly anybody disagrees with.

I acknowledge those who want only hyphens and those who want exactly this text will agree/disagree with everything; if they comment, therefore, the result will be to strike everything. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 03:34, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

::(It is a pity this page doesn't have a talk talk page really) PMAnderson do the following items cover all areas of the dispute? You've done the right thing in succinctly itemizing each use. We need to ensure the page remains easy to navigate and gage consensus. Casliber (talk · contribs) 04:21, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

:::There are some related issues with WP:HYPHEN, but they may fall out if the dashes are settled.

::::Unfortunately, I'm going to have to change my mind about this; one section called for. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:26, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

:::There are also more general issues on what MOS is, most of them mentioned in the RfAr; but they aren't really covered in the MOS text, so this approach won't work. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 04:28, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

::::I think it would be a great opportunity while this is the focus of the wider community to examine usage of a related area such as WP:HYPHEN but am not familiar with them so if you reckon they will settle spontaneously that sounds prudent. Agree the broader issue of the strength/weight MOS actually has is a bigger issue and arguably beyond the scope of this. Casliber (talk · contribs) 04:33, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

:::::I don't think we can really address what led to the arbcom thing and all the fuss about this unless we do address the strength/weight of the MOS. IOW, assuming the style guide is not amended to prefer hyphens in this case (hypothetical) will I need to open a move request to move from Carbon-carbon bond to Carbon–carbon bond where we can repeat this debate and see who happens to show up? It would be nice to not have to have this same discussion over and over, with different outcomes depending on what is on whose watchlist. ErikHaugen (talk | contribs) 17:14, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

::::::I could not agree more. To amplify, absent consensus for changing the MOS, the page moves to dashes would seem in compliance. Depending, of course, on what the MOS means. JeffConrad (talk) 20:17, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

:::::::The present text of MOS does not have consensus now. This position is absolutely unacceptable; to insist that a text on which we are divided authorizes those who wrote it to do whatever they want until they admit there is consensus against them is exactly what has been wrong with MOS for five years. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:43, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

:::Also this page is intended to judge unanimity, not consensus; we already have an RFC which shows that this text isn't consensus. On the other hand, a next limited to what everybody agrees on will still draw objections from those who wanted to include something else. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 04:40, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

::::This well may be your intent, but that′s not how I read the ArbCom motion

:::::Interested parties are instructed to spend the next 14 days from the passing of this motion {{nowrap|. . .}}

::::which directs us to

::::# determining the structure of a discussion on En dashes in article titles to obtain consensus.

::::# gathering of consensus on the issue. The discussion should be of sufficient structure to allow easy quantification of consensus rather than a large amount of poorly-framed debate.

::::It seems to me that we’ve largely skipped 1, and may be taking a different approach to 2 than was given. To be honest, I have no idea what was meant by the the final sentence:

:::::If after two months, a determination isn't realised, a case will be opened and conduct violations will be dealt with severely.

::::JeffConrad (talk) 20:27, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

::::::I created this page, in response to a suggestion that we determine unanimity. It is not intended to produce a consensus text; it is intended to inform us what would be a minimal text, containing only points to which almost everybody agrees. That text may or may not be consensus; in either case, this is only a first step. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:43, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

::::Concede that this is perhaps an initial step, assuming we agree on the structure of the discussion. JeffConrad (talk) 20:36, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

:::::I doubt ArbCom will think well of anybody who argues about the shape of the table. Please don't. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:43, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

• Comment: "if they comment ... the result will be to strike everything". If I may translate into Kwamese (since I'm well known to not speak "English"), it sounds like this means that Anderson thinks he owns this page, and will strike out opinions that do not approximate his own. Do I understand that right? We will then arrive at "unanimity" by disregarding those opinions which diverge from it, a rather Orwellian definition of the term. — kwami (talk) 10:18, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

::No no, this page is being observed and we'll ensure we get an idea of consensus. Some uses may be similar below but keeping each item as segmented as possible will avoid "yes/no" or otherwise conditional/partial answers to any bits. Casliber (talk · contribs) 10:57, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

• You guys need to make this page easier to find; I barely managed to do so. The 1st RfC has some 34 !votes about equally split for/against. The 2nd one only 14 with about the same ratio split. I don't want to make any predictions here, but people are getting tired... Tijfo098 (talk) 11:01, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

::Agree - I'd think centralised discussion, and notifying all voting editors in previous to reiterate their votes here would be good. I just wanted to ensure that all the questions that needed asking have been listed below. Casliber (talk · contribs) 11:32, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

:::Oh, I thought below was just to figure out which of the numbered items in ENDASH needed discussion. ErikHaugen (talk | contribs) 18:45, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

• The question of whether MOS permits or requires things isn't up for discussion here, but since the question has been raised, MOS is required at FAC, and WP:DASH is being treated as if it's required by some; thus the Arbcom case. The {{xt|4–3 win}} example belongs in the previous subsection. I won't speak to other varieties of English here, but "Lincoln-Douglas debate" is usually written with a hyphen in AmEng. WP:CREDO gives 9 hits, all with hyphens, and see [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style&oldid=429824164#Style_guides this WT:MOS discussion] for what the American style guides say. (I have recommended a dash here previously because I'm aware that other varieties of English are more pro-dash. I didn't want to come across as doggedly pro-AmEng, and as long as it wasn't causing problems, there was value in supporting one easy-to-learn rule. But this page isn't about getting along, it's about reporting accurately.) - Dank (push to talk) 14:22, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

::Dank, {{xt|4–3 win}} isn't a range, so it wouldn't fall under 1. 1 never says anything about being restricted to numbers, or that numbers aren't used for other things. — kwami (talk) 02:42, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

:::Quite right. - Dank (push to talk) 02:46, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

• :Generally, I would like the MOS to "require" things where "require" means we can just move pages/edit text without having this same argument thousands of times. Dank - hopefully this is up for discussion? I'm not sure what you mean. I don't think we can realistically ignore this issue, can we? It's been a pretty big part of the recent WT:MOS discussions and the debates leading to them and to the arbcom thing, I think. Maybe we mean different things by "The question of whether MOS permits or requires things"? ErikHaugen (talk | contribs) 16:53, 19 May 2011 (UTC)
• ::::Generally, I agree with Fut. Perf.'s edits in the original discussion here (and in the preceeding section); I very strongly disagree with any effort to make a minority usage compulsory. If we need uniformity on this, we should choose the far more common alternative; but I don't think we do.
• ::::
• ::::I do not agree with anyone - and I am naming no-one at this point - who holds that "whatever is not compulsory is forbidden". Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:24, 19 May 2011 (UTC)
• ::Discussions of how prescriptive we want to get about dashes are fine. I'm just saying that, since several members of Arbcom promised trouts or topic bans for all unless we get the current mess settled in the allotted time frame, I'd rather not throw big questions into the pot that have evaded consensus for years. - Dank (push to talk) 17:22, 19 May 2011 (UTC)
• :What then is up for discussion? JeffConrad (talk) 19:33, 19 May 2011 (UTC)
• :::I don't think anyone is threatening "topic bans for all". My point is just that how prescriptive the MOS is about dashes is a significant part of the current mess. ErikHaugen (talk | contribs) 17:25, 19 May 2011 (UTC)
• ::::That's exactly what Arbcom promised, and the fact that everyone is saying "Well surely they can't mean me, I haven't done anything wrong, they mean the other guys" is exactly why it turned into an Arbcom case. Having said that ... they can't mean me, I haven't done anything wrong :) But I don't want to see anyone else caught by surprise, so please, let's not get too fancy, let's just answer the questions and get to the end of the Arbcom case. When there's no active threat, we'll have time to discuss all of this in depth. - Dank (push to talk) 17:41, 19 May 2011 (UTC)
• :::::No, the motion said: "a case will be opened and conduct violations will be dealt with severely". ErikHaugen (talk | contribs) 17:53, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

{{od}}Sorry, I meant what some at Arbcom said. My biggest worry is that people are forgetting that this is an Arbcom case, with potential nasty surprises at the end, and certainly for some who won't be expecting it. Here's what Arbcom predicted in the "Arbitrator's opinion" section of that case. I think there's enough reason here to just aim for getting to the end of the case without digressions and without anyone losing editing privileges:

• Iridescent: "such a case is likely to take a huge amount of time, and be very unsatisfactory for anyone involved; WP:RFAR/DDL took five months to come to a decision and resulted in a huge stack of bans, blocks and restrictions for all those involved, including those who initially brought the case. Are you sure this is a firecracker you really want to light?"
• Casliber: "I echo Iridescent in that a case will not be pleasant, and sanctions for aggressive proponents on both sides possible."
• Roger Davies: "In practical terms, we can take a case, which will likely be long and nasty; issue liberal quantities of bans, topic bans and restrictions; and ask the community to forge a solution via an RFC."
• Sir Fozzie: "Does anyone see any resolution of an ArbCom case that wouldn't end up in "Trouts for all" or "Topic Bans for all?"."
• NewYorkBrad: "Much of the user conduct surrounding this issue has been wretched. All editors who have used excessively strident rhetoric in discussing this issue, or have otherwise acted obnoxiously, should stop doing that."
• JClemens: "but I consider the impact of tolerance (or lack thereof) for individual article differences to be a legitimate conduct matter inasmuch it provides a barrier to editing by those unfamiliar with its nuances." ["Sanctionable conduct matter" seems clear to me in context.]
• - Dank (push to talk) 18:49, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

({{xt| facilitator note: Current policy for MOS seems to lie about 2/3rds along the way from "Optional" to "Required". Each person can state their own strength of opinion but cannot dictate how others vote or try and railroad this. This section is now getting unwieldy due to discussion here. I will either collapse, footnote or move more general discussion. Casliber (talk · contribs) 21:06, 19 May 2011 (UTC)}}

• :Um, my only goal here was to urge people to be more focused and careful than normal, given all the talk of trouts and bans. I can't tell anyone what they should or shouldn't discuss. I've probably said everything I wanted to say at this point. - Dank (push to talk) 22:12, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

Comment:I totally prefer, against some apparently higher minds but in line with common usage, to use a hyphen with verses and a dash with "to stand for and between independent elements" . There has to be some common sense here that also goes along with compromise. If there is not a run to do away with the hyphen, that I am so totally against, and a move to use "Wiki" mark-ups regardless of common usage, then give meaningful reasoning for different usage.

• Also, PLEASE!; if someone is making comments, putting in "their two cents", or even giving civil comments, lets not use the "we have to do this now because of ArbCom and certain sanctions that are sure to come to involved editors". If I am civil and trying to help better Wikipedia and someone decides that for that reason I deserve sanctions then I will decide I have a far better use of my time than here. Apparently one editor is contemplating this. I just recently became involved and it took a while to attempt to try to catch up. I feel something that is deadlocked needs attention and an Arbcom is one way but threats just for the sake of it, and using this a lot as an argument to possibly force compromise, as apposed to compromise for the betterment of Wikipedia, is against what I perceive as a fundamental Wikipedia process. As stated above, "guidelines" for consistency is a good thing and needed to a point. If a majority of common usage (and not some 5% I observed) is one way then Wikipedia should lean in that direction. If a project is shown to use one certain way because common usage, consensus on the project, and other like titled articles, then there should not be a mandate to "do it wrong" just to be politically correct. If a title is otherwise correct (but just not within some views) the difference can be noted at the beginning of the lead. My goal here is the betterment of Wikipedia, threats of bans and sanctions notwithstanding. Otr500 (talk) 13:05, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

• :Therefore we disagree. This provision does not have unanimity. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:26, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

::Here again Anderson is claiming veto power over any provisions of the MOS. Whatever he does not agree with personally is therefore inappropriate. — kwami (talk) 02:48, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

:::Is he really, or did I miss something? His previous post is trivially true; it only says we disagree, therefore no unanimity. He isn't vetoing a provision of the MoS. The title of this section is "What do we agree upon?", not "What stays in the MoS?" Thus it is both relevant and undeniable than Septentrionalis does not agree upon this point. Art LaPella (talk) 03:43, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

• Comment; Are we requiring unanimity as a basis of compromise. And this provides solutions how? It seemed to me there was more "agree" than "disagree" so I go with Agree. Does this help solve the problem are are we just spinning wheels?
• No, we are not requiring unanimity as a basis of compromise. Please review the top of this page: "Editors have from now until 30 May 2011 to finalise the questions on this page, and a further six weeks to vote on them. Editors are not prohibited from voting beforehand but strongly urged to doublecheck after May 30 to view the final structure." Unanimity is required to "finalise the questions" under this #What do we agree upon? header, because where there is unanimity, there is no need for a question about whether to change the guideline. Unanimity or disagreement are the only possible answers to "What do we agree upon?" During the further six weeks period, unanimity will presumably not be required for a decision. Art LaPella (talk) 14:42, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

:I guess I am still missing something. If there is an agreement of three editors and I disagree this is consensus so why risk missing a "deadline" by requiring complete agreement. Is this just to get it on the shelf to avoid the deadline and end up with further deadlock on an attempt to find consensus at that time? Although everyone getting along and world peace is a grand goal for Miss America I question unanimity in this situation. I am just stating my opinion and feel that if I am in the minority of a fair discussion my comments should be noted and over-ridden. I was to the opinion that that was a key part of the Wikipedia process and certainly could be helpful here to 1)- Avoid stretching things out and getting close to the deadline with no solutions, and 2)- Avoid extending the issue to a later date when not "under the gun". I do understand (I think) the reasoning that if something is brought up and all that comment agree then it is settled. Of course there are editors that have been active in the debates that has either refrained from comments (maybe for fear of sanctions) or have just not yet weighed in. At any rate until the button is pushed that states this phase is over, and until that time one person could stall the process that might otherwise seem to have unanimity, everything requiring the purported unanimity could be stalled. I just do not want people to state an agreement, to get past a deadline (and feared possible sanctions), that they will vehemently oppose at a later date and create problems then. I think my assumption is correct that only listing what we all agree on will presumably simplify the process of getting on with the next phase but why (a question to help me understand) require complete agreement when this is not even the acceptable Wikipedia process? Yes this may get us over the "what we all agree on" parts but they were probably not the real issues to begin with. I can not imagine that forcing a false agreement was the goal of Arbcom. These are just my thoughts and not meant to hinder any process that might work. I will try to weigh in lightly with the mandate in mind but certainly seeking improvement to Wikipedia as the major goal. Otr500 (talk) 16:04, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

::OK, I'll try again. The arbitrators have asked us to separate the process into stages. This stage is simply to list disagreements (or to list agreements in order to exclude them from the disagreements). This stage is not to decide which side of a disagreement will prevail. The only way to list disagreements is to see who disagrees. The only way to see who disagrees is to let anyone disagree. If anyone disagrees with an issue, then that issue should be one of the disagreements. Adding to the list of disagreements shouldn't risk missing a deadline. Adding to the list of disagreements doesn't mean that the disagreement should prevail. Adding to the list of disagreements doesn't "stall the process that might otherwise seem to have unanimity". It only adds to the list of disagreements. Only in a later stage can we see who else agrees or disagrees, and determine a consensus. The arbitrators' plan is first we "finalise the questions" by determining where we disagree. Only then do we answer those questions. You haven't criticized the arbitrators' plan, so yes you are still missing something. Art LaPella (talk) 18:31, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

:::But already, we have partial disagreement on almost everything but item 1 (and perhaps 4/6), so unless we separate the distinct uses to the point where the only possible opinions are “agree” or “disagree”, we’re not going to find much unanimity. And if a hyphenist decides to join the discussion, we may not even find unanimity on any point. Finding unanimity may be tough even with everything broken out, but until we try, we’ll never know. It would seem to me that a breakout would almost require a complete re-vote (save perhaps item 1), so the longer we wait to do this, the more effort gets wasted. In the case of item 4, I’m still not even sure what that usage is, so I suppose I can’t really say whether I agree or disagree. Again, I think we may have skipped a key initial step: identify the uses on which we need to decide whether we agree or disagree; the sooner we address this, the better. JeffConrad (talk) 20:37, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

:::I should add that the breakout I′ve suggested derives mainly from the examples in the current MOS, and may not be sufficient. For example, what do we do with a batter who is 1–3 (one for three) and facing a 3–2 count? And I’m sure there are many others. The style guides are deficient here; for years, I wasn’t sure whether Chicago supported the en dash in the sense of versus or between; it was not until the specific disclaimer in the 16th ed. that I learned they did not (save perhaps situations covered by Scientific Format and Style). Some things still aren’t clear: Chicago suggest an en dash to distinguish university campuses ({{xt|University of Wisconsin−Madison}}); by this logic we would have {{xt|Herb Kohl (D–Wis.)}}, but I hardly ever see the latter construction. I’ll concede that, unlike WP, most style guides don′t have infinite space to devote to this topic. JeffConrad (talk) 21:50, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

::::On these matters, silence implies dissent. The general rule is to use a hyphen for compounds, even in the wilds of Hart's New Rules. where a dash is not expressly preferred, a hyphen is preferred. As for your example, the batter should be 1 for 3, and facing a 3-2 count, especially if the writer uses a dash for ranges. The same symbol should not mean different things when there is a distinct symbol to use. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:54, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

:::::That’s your take, but not necessarily everyone’s. As an example, the APA style guide doesn’t mention en dashes in ranges of numbers, yet they use such dashes themselves. The MLA guide doesn’t even mention en dashes, yet they also use them in ranges of numbers. So I don’t buy “silence implies dissent”—silence may simply mean they never thought of it.

:::::On a couple of specifics: we agree on “1 for 3”, but not necessarily on “3-2 count”, which no one who knows anything about baseball would confuse with a range of numbers. I would use the latter as I showed it, but might be persuaded by overwhelming usage to the contrary, e.g., {{xt|Herb Kohl (D-Wis.)}}. JeffConrad (talk) 23:43, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

5a. In compounds whose elements themselves contain hyphens ({{xt|the anti-conscription–pro-conscription debate}}).

• Agree (somewhat reluctantly) This construction strikes me as ugly, but in some cases may be the best option. I would suggest that editors consider recasting when feasible. JeffConrad (talk) 08:36, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

[other comments elided]

• Disagree. This usage (with the next one below) is as exclusively American as they get; and it is not universal in American anyway. It generally makes sense only on a background assumption that the en dash with sense "between" or "versus" is not allowed. That is why it belongs in CMOS, for example, but not in our MOS. In the current example the en dash is already justified on those other grounds. If we would write {{xt|the radical–conservative debate}}, we should write {{xt|the anti-conscription–pro-conscription debate}}, hyphens or no hyphens. I struggle to find plausible examples that work differently. "A Mon-Khmer–native-speaking woman"? "A long-established–anti-intellectualism problem", to distinguish from "A long-established anti-intellectualism problem"? [Added later: The en dash introduces a new possible reading, so the ambiguity is still as great: "A long-established versus or and anti-intellectualism problem".] "Little-known–anti-inflammatory contraindications", to distinguish from "Little-known anti-inflammatory contraindications"? This guideline was added late, and was not well considered or well drafted. It fits ill with the more settled guidelines. Noetica^Tea? 00:28, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
• : I could as reasonably claim that the spaced en dash is almost exclusively British. I’d be careful with the royal we {{nowrap|. . .}} I realize CMOS isn’t your favorite guide, but it probably handily outsells every British guide combined; that doesn’t make it the standard, of course, but certainly argues against its being completely blown off. And the usage isn’t strictly CMOS anyway. We of course need to be careful to be clear on what we mean by “usage”. None of the guides, including CMOS, seem fond of using en dashes with hyphenated compounds, so I have no issue with discouraging them here. But I take issue with insisting on {{xt|post-Civil-War period}} over {{xt|post–Civil War period}}, or {{xt|New Zealand-style clothing}} or {{xt|New-Zealand-style clothing}} over {{xt|New Zealand–style clothing}}, which I read OSM as preferring, even if it’s only as the least of evils. We could of course chose to commemorate Fowler with {{xt|NewZealand-style clothing}}. JeffConrad (talk) 01:33, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
• ::Jeff:
• :::1. Do you mean the spaced en dash in ranges, or what? Much publishing in America uses spaced en dash rather than em dash at the sentence level.
• :::2. What "royal we" are you talking about? Here I use "we", as a normal expressive device, only in "If we would write ..." and the rest of my conditional statement. It isn't about "us", it's about anyone who wants rational and consistent punctuation.
• :::3. I make no point here against CMOS; I use CMOS myself. Nor do I say that this guideline is unique to CMOS. I only say that this particular guideline fits well with CMOS (which appears to have invented it, a century ago). And I demonstrate that it fits ill with the other guidelines in WP:MOS, some of which make it practically redundant: I show that the result will often be the same, but from differing principles.
• :::4. The topic here is not cases like {{xt|post–Civil War period}}. They involve spaces in a component, not hyphens. Let's keep points in their appointed places.
• ::Noetica^Tea? 02:12, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
• :::I somewhat misspoke. I clearly reacted to “hyphens or no hyphens”, the latter not covered by this section. I also reacted to “That is why it belongs in CMOS, for example, but not in our MOS”, perhaps overly so—but it’s hard to take this as other than a ding, however slight. So to an extent we both misspoke. As for “we”? Perhaps I incorrectly read you as claiming to speak for everyone here, especially as strongly as you did. Though I’m not a fan of the combination of hyphens and en dashes (it’s sometimes tough to quickly distinguish one from the other), I’d stop short of implying that it’s irrational. Perhaps more important: CMOS aren’t fans of it, either, as their recasting illustrates. My greatest issue with the examples in any of the recent editions of CMOS is that they most likely intended “quasi-legislative, quasi-judicial body”, a difference irrelevant to the issue at hand. As for spaced en dashes in the US? They’re very uncommon in any application, and find almost no support in American style guides. And OUP agree with me {{nowrap|. . .}} but perhaps we’re both wrong. In any event, we probably should be careful with tags such as “exclusively American” or “exclusively British”, because neither is better than the other; you won’t find me writing speciality, but I don’t expect you to write specialty, either (though you may note that I usually treat collective nouns as in BrE). Finally, we really don’t differ that much on combining hyphens and en dashes in phrasal adjectives, though I would discourage it rather than ban it. Several others here seem to agree. JeffConrad (talk) 02:59, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
• :::We should probably move most of this to the discussion page. JeffConrad (talk) 03:11, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
• ::::Jeff, I am happy to leave it where it is, provided there is no more to say. There's no point of yours that I need to come back on. I'm content that my points (raised by no one else above) have been noted. Applying [small][/small] to our exchange. Noetica^Tea? 03:46, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

[moved to end to maintain chronological order]

::“hyphens or no hyphens”: The latter isn’t covered by this section. JeffConrad (talk) 02:59, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

:::I don't understand why you repeat that, Jeff (see below above). The point is that the example would already have an en dash without those hyphens. Imagine if we were to spell the components solid: {{xt|the anticonscription–proconscription debate}}. And compare this, which is almost synonymous: {{xt|the volunteerism–conscription debate}}. In all three cases a long-standing principle in WP:MOS (separately examined on this page) already calls for the en dash. So the principle that we focus on right here is not shown, by its current example, to have force of its own – unless that other principle is removed. We can't deal with each principle in hermetic (nor eremitic) isolation. By all means start a new section at the other subpage, removing our exchange to there, if this is not yet clear. Noetica^Tea? 04:04, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

::::I put it here because it was the main reason for my earlier comment; I assume that put in small type, the rest of our exchange will be ignored by most readers. If all we really are discussing here is the combination of hyphens and en dashes in a string without whitespace, we have no disagreement. And CMOS essentially agree with us. And I don’t see how we got into eliminating the hyphens (unless you took {{xt|NewZealand}} seriously; even then, the caps might suffice). If you suggest we disallow en dashes in open compounds because they’re “exclusively American”, we do disagree. But if so, this is not the place to discuss it. JeffConrad (talk) 04:49, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

:::::Jeff: First, refactor our exchange as you will; or remove it all to the other subpage. I don't care; and I certainly trust you to do it well. Second, CMOS (for example! I have no special point to make about or against it here) wants a hyphen in {{xt|the volunteerism~conscription debate}}; so CMOS and WP:MOS differ on that. This is directly relevant to what we discuss here, as I have explained. Because CMOS wants that one to have a hyphen, it needs a special, extra principle to get an en dash into {{xt|the anti-conscription–pro-conscription debate}}. Agreed? So my point (to repeat it again) is that WP:MOS does not need such an extra principle, since it already calls for an en dash in, say, {{xt|the volunteerism–conscription debate}}. That same principle would give us {{xt|the anti-conscription–pro-conscription debate}} also. CommasHyphens in the components make no difference.[Fixed a slip in that sentence. See discussion below.–Noetica] This was highly relevant to raise here, even if it implicates another of the principles – one that we discuss elsewhere on this page. Once again: it is reductive and unproductive to insist on examining each separate principle in strict isolation. I oppose this present principle, largely because another principle in WP:MOS (one that I support, with the majority here) makes it redundant. If you disagree, please show a plausible example where this CMOS-style principle would apply under WP:MOS, and where the WP:MOS "between" en dash would not already be called for (that is, before we even consider whether or not the components have hyphens). As you can see, I tried; but I could not find any such plausible or clarifying application of this principle. Noetica^Tea? 05:30, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

::::::[New comment after move]

::::::I agree that CMOS would use a hyphen in {{xt|the volunteerism~conscription debate}} (specifically, 6.81 in 16th ed.), and that usage differs from our MOS and from what I’ve voted for here. But I don’t see how this enters into this specific issue. I agree that WP:MOS arrives at {{xt|the anti-conscription–pro-conscription debate}}, but I am not sure of your position—do you disagree with the usage or simply that it is a special case? If the latter, I guess I’m to blame once again for breaking this out. I did not do so capriciously, however. Both CMOS and OSM deprecate this usage, as do I. Though {{xt|the anti-conscription–pro-conscription debate}} is better than {{xt|the anti-conscription-pro-conscription debate}}, many readers may not see any difference, which I suspect is why CMOS and OSM dislike it. And my breakout was not intended to suggest how the MOS might be rewritten—I was simply trying to find where we had reasonable agreement and where we did not.

::::::I’m also puzzled by the reference to commas just above; the only example I can find in CMOS16 that includes a comma is {{xt|a quasi-public, quasi judicial body}} (at 6.80), which is how I would write it, and is a construction I would read our MOS as endorsing.

::::::Again, I wonder if we seem to be disagreeing on something on which we really don’t disagree. JeffConrad (talk) 07:14, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

{{outdent}}

Jeff, thanks for moving it all to here. Too long for the voting page. And I'm sorry for my mistaken use of the word "commas" when I meant "hyphens" (now struck out and corrected above).

Look, it's all very rational; but since short explanations have not worked, I must try a long one:

I oppose including a principle like CMOS's one, especially with WP:MOS's present example: {{xt|the anti-conscription–pro-conscription debate}}. Why? Start with this fact: that example could equally have been used in MOS (as it now stands) to illustrate the ordinary use of a "between" en dash. Look at it (without "the"), among the other examples on the voting page for the "between" dash:

::{{xt|male–female relations}}

::{{xt|French–German border}}

::{{xt|anti-conscription–pro-conscription debate}}

For each, the abstract schema is this:

::Schema 1: A–B C, where "–" represents a relation similar to "between", and the compound A–B modifies C

Right? Now, in two cases the components are simple. Neither includes a hyphen. In the third case, the components include hyphens. But nothing in the schema, or in the guideline as it stands, precludes that. [NOTE: In this explanation I focus on "between"; that is perhaps the meaning most relevant in the example {{xt|anti-conscription–pro-conscription debate}}, and it is the one explicitly excluded in CMOS. But I do mean to include "versus", "to", etc. in Schema 1. Focusing on "between" makes the explanation easier to write and to follow.]

Given that our Schema 1 for the "because" cases covers {{xt|anti-conscription–pro-conscription debate}}, any separate principle that uses it as an example – trading on the presence of hyphens, now – is redundant at best and misleading at worst. This is not a problem for CMOS: we agree, it does not support the "between" use of en dashes; yet it does want {{xt|anti-conscription–pro-conscription debate}}. Several guides agree with CMOS, and make similar provisions; MOS is among the many that do not agree with CMOS, and it would be unhelpful for us to adopt a principle from it without careful thought.

Of course I agree with the phrase {{xt|anti-conscription–pro-conscription debate}}! Where did I suggest that I don't? I have explained: my support of the "between" en dash entails that I support {{xt|anti-conscription–pro-conscription debate}}, just as it entails that I support {{xt|volunteerism–conscription debate}}. I can imagine that the added CMOS-based principle would be useful in other cases, with this schema:

::Schema 2: D~E F, where "~" marks D as modifying E, and the compound D~E itself modifies F.

In such cases, when D and E are simple, CMOS and WP:MOS agree that "~" becomes a hyphen (generally; CMOS16 makes some changes):

::{{xt|small-state senators}} (in CMOS16, 7.85, p. 377)

But by the CMOS-based rule, if D and E each included a hyphen and D still modified E according to Schema 2, "~" would be realised as an en dash, not a hyphen. Something like this, breaking D and E into smaller parts:

::Schema 2': d'-d"–e'-e" F, where d'-d" modifies e'-e", and d'-d"–e'-e" modifies F

I seriously doubt that CMOS ever envisaged such a thing; but technically CMOS16 6.80 endorses it (always with the preference for rewording, granted). Not a problem in practice, because for CMOS their 6.80 rule does something useful: it allows for the more normal cases in which the components have hyphens, like {{xt|anti-conscription–pro-conscription debate}}, while a parallel case with simple components has a hyphen, not an en dash: {{xt|volunteerism-conscription debate}}. That's what they're after.

Now, accept the onus of proof. Show that we have any use for that CMOS-based principle. Since you agree with the "between" en dash (as I see from the voting page), what use do you see for this added CMOS-based principle? This is not politics: it's not about the relative merits of different style guides, or British–American differences. Just tell me what purpose this added principle would serve. MOS already provides for Schema 1 cases with an explicit "between" principle. So for MOS, the only cases in which the CMOS-based rule could make any difference are the Schema 2 cases. Can you think of such a case where an en dash would be at all plausible, and not misleading? So far I cannot! See above, where I attempted these:

::a Mon-Khmer–native-speaking woman

::a long-established–anti-intellectualism problem

::little-known–anti-inflammatory contraindications

I explain above how these are strange, misleading, or both; but they are the only sorts of phrases I can imagine the CMOS-based principle specifically permitting in a WP:MOS context, where {{xt|anti-conscription–pro-conscription debate}} (for example) is already permitted by the plain "between" principle. Show me different.

Noetica^Tea? 10:04, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

:It appears that your original answer was meant to the effect of

:*I agree with the usage illustrated by {{xt|anti-conscription–pro-conscription debate}}, but disagree that it is a separate case, because it’s already covered by the sense of between. CMOS and OSM list it as a separate rule because Chicago do not use the en dash for the sense of between, and because both CMOS and OSM find the construction awkward.

:Had you written it as such, I might have said nothing. After several re-reads, it looks as though this is kinda what you did say, but compare with what I wrote just above (I concede I may have been overly distracted by exclusively American and CMOS).

:Again, again, again, the separation I made was to see where we stood on various usages, not to vote on current or potentially new wording of the MOS, which would be getting ahead of ourselves by presupposing the outcome of the polling. It was necessary to break out 5a because some, including CMOS and OSM, deprecate this usage even though they allow it. There clearly are some here who agree; were we to deprecate this usage (urging recasting when practical), it would need to be a separate case—call it an exception to the general rule for the sense of between if you will. I think you extrapolate Chicago’s rule far beyond anything they would ever suggest. They might reluctantly accept {{xt|anti-conscription–pro-conscription debate}} as preferable to {{xt|anti-conscription-pro-conscription debate}}, but prefer recasting because they recognize that most people may see the former as if it were the latter anyway.

:So again, it seems that we really don’t disagree that much, except that I would recast this usage where practical.

:As for the next usage (compounds with spaces), I disagree that it is “as exclusively American as they get”, because OSM allows it as well, even if OUP like it less than do Chicago. A little definitely goes a long way, but I simply cannot see {{nowrap|{{xt|Chuck Berry-style lyrics}}}} as a substitute for {{xt|Chuck Berry–style lyrics}}. Some here obviously disagree, just as there are some here who would ban the spaced en dash as an alternative to an em dash. The former is just about as British as {{xt|Chuck Berry–style lyrics}} is American. If it′s not about politics, neither should matter. JeffConrad (talk) 21:28, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

::Jeff, by usage in my original statement I meant all that the stated principle would allow, not the example given. And I then wrote this, including the bold that I show here: "In the current example the en dash is already justified on those other grounds. If we would write {{xt|the radical–conservative debate}}, we should write {{xt|the anti-conscription–pro-conscription debate}}, hyphens or no hyphens." It is not always possible to predict how one will be read, or how carefully. It is unfortunate that we failed in sending and receiving the message this time.

::Yes, OSM makes almost the leanest possible concession to the usage we discuss here, and to the next. Its successor NHR (typically less expansive than OSM) allows less; and it specifically labels that next usage as American:

::

Note that in US style an en rule is used to connect a prefix and a compound (the post–World War I period). (NHR, p. 55)

::I stand by my initial statement: "This usage (with the next one below) is as exclusively American as they get; and it is not universal in American anyway." I did not say, without qualification, that it was exclusively American!

::Now, again (and again) I ask you: in a set of WP:MOS guidelines that includes the "between" use of en dash (and the "versus", and the "to", and the "and", as at present), is there a role for this special CMOS-based rule? Do you see that it could only be needed in this sort of case:

:::d'-d"–e'-e" F, where d'-d" modifies e'-e", and d'-d"–e'-e" modifies F

::As far as I can see, all other cases are already covered by the "between" principle (and those others for "versus", etc.). If you do see a place for this CMOS-based rule (a neutral descriptive term), please show examples where it would be useful in increasing clarity. So far I genuinely, apolitically, cannot find any. (I haven't had time to search thoroughly.)

::(I have not yet voted on those cases involving spaces as opposed to hyphens, so I do not address them above except to comment on NHR, etc. More on them later.)

::Noetica^Tea? 00:59, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

:::How many times must I say it? I have no disagreement that compounds that contain hyphens are already covered by several of the senses that would call for an en dash, provided we agree on those other rules. Seems to me the purpose of the poll is to find this out, so we cannot assume the answer while posing the question. The responses suggest that many editors, while they would allow the usage, they would sometimes encourage recasting, and they would have strong support from CMOS and OSM. This may argue for a special rule or an exception to the more general rule—I’m not sure it really matters what we call it. Let’s see what we agree on before we act on what we agree on.

:::I recognize that CMOS and OSM arrive at the special rules here for different reasons; for CMOS, it’s a special case of usage, and for OSM, it’s an exception to the general rule. But the results are similar.

:::I think “exclusively American” and “exclusively British” (perhaps with a few qualifiers) serve only to distract, and encourage endless unproductive discussion. I could cite OSM as saying that the spaced em dash is as exclusively British as they get:

::::OUP and most US publishers use the unspaced (non-touching) em rule as a parenthetical dash; other British publishers use the en rule with space either side. (at 5.10.10)

:::It should be obvious that most AmE editors favor American practice and BrE editors favor British practice; it would surprise were it otherwise. As long as a practice is well established, it should not matter where. What we want to avoid are fringe usages with no rational bases. It probably could be credibly argued that en dashes are a fringe usage anyway, and that most readers would not know an en dash if it bit them. Though I’ve been part of that fringe for years, I find our extended interest in en dashes amazing when we reject nearly universal convention for quotation marks (noting that even here American and British practice differs)—most folks deal with the common at the expense of the less common. But I don’t want to go at that one here—we can create a subpage dedicated to that topic if necessary.

:::Once again, I agree that the specific usage that this question addresses is covered by the more general rule, but if it is decided that we, like Chicago and OUP, prefer recasting of some constructions, we need to give this usage special treatment. We can decide later whether it’s an exception or a different rule. JeffConrad (talk) 02:54, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

::::Jeff: You may protest that you have to say things many times; but still you do not answer my repeated direct questions. Therefore I will do the necessary work myself. A hypothesis, just so I can be absolutely sure of something I consider important:

::::

JeffConrad and Noetica agree on this: If the existing WP:MOS principles for en dash indicating "between", "versus", "to" and the like are retained, there can be no justification for a further principle involving components that include hyphens. Such cases are already completely covered by those former principles. The only exceptions would be rare, implausible, and very likely misleading if an en dash were introduced.

::::Please answer: Is my hypothesis right? Do we agree? Please state clearly and completely how we disagree (preferably with examples). Alternatively, please say why we need to talk about anything more here, and say what that unfinished business might be.

::::Your remark about discussion of British and American English being a distraction, and so on? I read it as distracting! Why raise all that here? We have moved beyond any British–American divide, I had thought: I now want to know how you envisage the guidelines we favour for WP:MOS working together, apart from any considerations of other style guides, or of varieties of English.

::::To answer your own recent point above: I do not touch on the business of recasting, because if the example given – {{xt|the anti-conscription–pro-conscription debate}}), along with others like it – is indeed covered by the former principles ("between" en dash, etc.), advice to recast belongs in the presentation of those principles. For the specific instances in which hyphens are present, right? It would be strange and artificial to add a redundant separate principle (this CMOS-based principle) simply to state that it will not apply, and that recasting is desirable despite what the former principles seemed to call for. Understood?

::::Noetica^Tea? 03:31, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

:::::As I’ve said several times, if your hypothesis is that the more general case covers this usage, then, yes, I agree with you. The question asked in this poll, again, was with the specific usage—nothing else. Had your comment been “I agree with the usage illustrated by anti-conscription–pro-conscription debate, but disagree that it is a separate case, because it’s already covered by more general rules”, I’d probably have said nothing.

:::::I wasn’t the one to open the American/British issue, and see no point in continuing with it if we both think it’s largely irrelevant. I would not necessarily deprecate a practice that was primarily one or the other, possibly because we might never find consensus on which practices are “as exclusive as they get”.

:::::At this point, I don’t care where an issue such as recasting might be addressed—we’re polling on usage, not rewriting the MOS. But if the recasting arises solely because the combination of hyphens and en dashes seems awkward, then recasting advice must relate specifically to that usage, as is done in both CMOS and OSM. How and where it’s done here is something to address if we decide to change the MOS.

:::::Finally, it seems as if we’re spending an awful lot of time parsing minor details of something on which we largely agree. JeffConrad (talk) 04:55, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

::::::Rightio, one circuitous way or another I think we've covered everything on this narrow topic. Finally (I hope), it would be useful to record and acknowledge that no one, in the reams of dialogue on these pages, had pointed out what I point out in my vote and in this subsequent discussion. It has a definite bearing on how amended guidelines ought to be cast – though obviously we have disagreed about where it is appropriate to announce such a momentous discovery. Again: ☺. Noetica^Tea? 05:15, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

{{od|5}}

I think it still depends on what we decide we agree on. If, for example, we decide that we agree on the usages covered by the current (2) and (3), and agree that “Unspaced en dashes are used in place of a hyphen in compound modifiers (see under Hyphens above) in which the parts of the compound are independent and equal elements”, adequately describes these usages, and we decide that recasting may be preferable in some instances, the treatment of compounds that contain spaces or hyphens could be treated as an exception to the general rule. If, however, we decide to retain more than one general rule, it would seem better to have a rule that dealt with hyphens, spaces, or both than to have exceptions repeated in two different general rules. At this point, I’m not sure that “independent and equal elements” would obviously include {{xt|ex–prime minister}} or {{xt|Chuck Berry–style lyrics}}, so I think dealing with the wording before tabulating and interpreting the results is putting the cart ahead of the horse. And I’m not sure continuing to beat the horse until its morale improves is the best approach. Let’s see what we agree on, see what rules that suggests, and if revision of the MOS is indicated, deal with the details at that time. JeffConrad (talk) 09:41, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

5b. When prefixing an element containing a space ({{xt|pre–World War II technologies}}, {{xt|ex–prime minister}}).

• Disagree. Like the preceding principle, this one is almost exclusively American. By itself, that is not an important objection; but these two principles originate and belong in a more limited context than English Wikipedia, which serves the whole anglophone world. It may fit well with CMOS conventions, for example. But our other guidelines will surely continue to differ from CMOS on en dashes (and dashes generally). Moreover, when we consider cases of this sort in isolation, we find that the structure is usually clear with the standard hyphen anyway: from the capitalisation ({{xt|pre-World War II technologies}}), or from the inclusion of more hyphens when the prefixed form is not a proper name (post + blue period + paintings: {{xt|post-blue-period paintings}}), or from the use of a stock title or familiar pattern that is read as a coherent block ({{xt|several ex-prime ministers were present; {{xt|two anti-potassium cyanide agents}}, noting that such chemical names do not take hyphens}}). In rare cases there may still be uncertainty of meaning: are {{xt|non-sodium chloride salts}} chloride salts that are not sodium chloride, or simply salts that are not sodium chloride? Such cases are rare, and can be resolved by context or by rewording. In conclusion, if we do adopt this principle, we do so for extremely few cases, against expectations for many users of the language, and with juxtapositions that are, as we say in the trade, butt~ugly ({{xt|post–French Baroque pre-Revolution art}}), and without a clear way to extend to more complex constructions by other, more established principles ({{xt|quasi-pre–French Revolution taxes}}??; {{xt|quasi–pre–French Revolution taxes}}??). Noetica^Tea? 05:04, 12 July 2011 (UTC)
• :I would again caution on the use of the royal we; although some obviously share your views, others obviously do not. I would also remind that, when referring to anglophones, one should be mindful of the portion thereof that Americans constitute. Now as people rush to throw in India and whomever else the Brits invaded before the US acquired the hobby, I’d like to see specific citations of usage rather than vague allegations.
• :Is {{xt|post-Cold War period}} perfectly clear? Perhaps, and the capitalization definitely helps; but should we have a different rule when there is no capitalization? And even with the capitalization, the reader must backtrack, if ever so slightly. As I’ve indicated several times, it’s not a matter of the reader not being able to figure it out—in most cases, the reader can easily do so. But the reader should not require any additional effort to do so. If it is otherwise, nearly all other instances of using the en dash are unjustifiable.
• :Perhaps a clue can be taken from NHR, which concedes (at 3.3.4), that there is no satisfactory way of dealing with {{xt|ex-Prime Minister}}. In that specific instance, recasting to {{xt|former Prime Minister}} may work, but the same cannot be said for {{xt|pseudo-page transition}}. Because NHR indicates that US practice at least has a solution, it would seem sensible to at least allow it if the objective is truly “best practice” rather than British practice.
• :Be assured that I think this approach has limits; though I’m fine with the first two examples in CMOS16 at 6.80, I’m considerably less enthusiastic about the third, and utterly unenamored of the last. JeffConrad (talk) 09:06, 12 July 2011 (UTC)
• ::Thanks for moving things to here, Jeff. See my brief response at the voting page, and this here:
• ::I am confident that you do not mean any offence; but in fact none of those is a "royal we"; nor was there any on the previous occasion that you imputed such a usage to me. The nearest candidates this time: "Moreover, when we consider cases of this sort in isolation, we find ...". This is a perfectly standard usage in a register of English I am very familiar with, and it is widely understood. It is a way of expressing a point that one judges well evidenced, not a mere statement of idiosyncratic opinion, with an appeal to the reader to join in considering and accepting that evidence. To express something more idiosyncratic, I should say (and do say) "for myself", "it seems to me", or "I suppose". It would be a "royal we" only if I referred to myself alone as we. I caution you in turn to respect the expressive style of editors who post here, no matter what style they choose or are limited to. It is an element of civility on Wikipedia to do that. Getting the message across clearly, efficiently, and unoffensively is good enough.
• ::We could go on at great length about the content here, and what you take exception to. I propose that we not do so. The voting seems slightly in favour of the principle in question (note the hedging in several agrees though); so I have decided that I will not stand against it being retained in the guidelines, unless there is a last minute rush to exclude it. Many agree that re-wording is often better. I have simply recorded some observations from my own rather extensive investigations and experience; you too have extensive expertise, and of course I respect that. There is no practical consequence of any disagreement we might discover between us right here; so let's leave it. Noetica^Tea? 09:58, 12 July 2011 (UTC)
• :::Be assured that no offense was meant. Perhaps we are simply afflicted with the division of a common language {{nowrap|. . .}} at least in AmE, it’s difficult to take we as other than presuming to speak for a significant majority, seemingly confirmed by “well evidenced” above; perhaps it’s different in BrE, and perhaps I need to learn this. We could probably debate this forever, and most likely would quickly realize that what’s “well evidenced” to some is not evidenced at all to others. Ultimately, I think we must recognize that there’s more than one way to do it.
• :::Perhaps an expansion of my position (and what I think CMOS intends) is in order. What we essentially have is an issue of operator precedence. Clearly, we all seem to agree that a hyphen binds more tightly than a space; in this instance, there is an attempt to use the en dash as an operator with lower precedence than the hyphen or space, so that {{xt|Chuck Berry–style lyrics}} is read as “(Chuck Berry)-style lyrics” rather than “Chuck (Berry-style) lyrics”.
• :::Again, recognize that I only support this usage up to a point; I would probably recast {{xt|country–music influenced lyrics}} to the alternative that Chicago give. But there is no way I would go with {{xt|pseudo-page transition}} over {{xt|pseudo–page transition}}. Though I’ve given this as somewhat of a running joke, I assure you it was no joke when I first encountered it 25 years ago, and if I am to judge by every book on troff that I’ve ever read, I wasn’t the only one baffled by it. Would use of an en dash as Chicago recommend have changed the world? We’ll never know, and it no longer matters. As with so many other uses of the en dash (on most of which, you and I agree), this fine distinction will probably be lost on the majority of readers. I would say here what I’ve said for the other uses: though many may not notice, those who do will be aided, and at worst, it does no harm. JeffConrad (talk) 10:45, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

''The space before an en dash should preferably be a non-breaking space ( ).

• Not sure. — kwami (talk)
• Don't get me started. - Dank (push to talk) 14:58, 19 May 2011 (UTC)
• :...even because that would then get me started. ― A. di M.​_plé​^dréachtaí 17:12, 19 May 2011 (UTC)
• I'm not sure how to interpret Dank's comment, but this isn't controversial, is it? This just means you don't want a dash/hyphen/whatever at the beginning of the line, right? ErikHaugen (talk | contribs) 16:55, 19 May 2011 (UTC)
• I'd just rather not get into it right now when sanctions have been promised if we don't finish in time. I haven't seen anyone demanding resolution on this as part of this Arbcom case. - Dank (push to talk) 17:35, 19 May 2011 (UTC)
• : Ok, so just leave as is (for now)? ErikHaugen (talk | contribs) 17:54, 19 May 2011 (UTC)
• ::Agreed, leave it alone. - Dank (push to talk) 18:24, 19 May 2011 (UTC)
• :I tend to make the same interpretation of the ArbCom motion as Dank, but fail to see how anyone could be “sanctioned” for failing to reach consensus. What exactly would a sanction be? JeffConrad (talk) 20:55, 19 May 2011 (UTC)
• Agree, as Erik has stated. Too much trouble? Use {{tl|ndash}} or use an unspaced em dash. JeffConrad (talk) 19:50, 19 May 2011 (UTC)
• Comment; I agree with JeffConrad and the continual use of the "threats of sanctions" if consensus is not met is not how the ruling appeared to me. I can see that the ordered part of admins being proactive is not being followed or these continued mentions of such "threats" would be a good time for clarification. I guess some that worry about this so much as Wikipedia is their lives, with nothing else to do, this might be a motivation for compromise or a time for silence. I also feel that compromise should be a two-way (would that be with a hyphen or en-dash) street (to agree) with Wikipedia interests, reader interests, and other editor's interests, in mind. I think the "sure to come" sanctions are concerning civility and disruptions. At least I would hope this is the intent of the rule (it is somewhat— or maybe a lot "vague") as I feel that would be an over-reach of authority. Again as stated, if I am sanctioned or banned for trying to improve Wikipedia then that would be a big hint I need to find better use of my time. I have noticed that some editors that have been very active has not made comments and feel that if this is a serious issue any editor can seek clarification at the comment section of the Arbcom ruling. With that in mind (ask if you are worried) can we be more concerned with improving Wikipedia than some sanctions that we are not even sure about. Otr500 (talk) 13:05, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
• :The ArbCom motions concludes with “If after two months, a determination isn't realised, a case will be opened and conduct violations will be dealt with severely.” I think fear of sanctions may be reading too much into this, though clarification of “case” and “conduct violations” would be helpful. Looking practically at the two-month deadline: I can’t imagine anyone able to stomach this discussion for two months (OK, perhaps a few {{nowrap|. . .}} JeffConrad (talk) 20:22, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
• ::Look, I edit Wikipedia for my personal enjoyment. It's not a game, but... I mean, it's not "Wikipedia is my life", either. I feel that I can contribute, so I do. I think that I could contribute here as well, but I'm not going to get further involved in a topic that the most authoritative body on Wikipedia sees a need to "shepherd", and is making vague threats about the possible role they could play in the Wikipedia "careers" of those expressing their opinions on this matter. It doesn't matter what arbcom's intent may be here, the fact is that they're "watching", which is plenty of (de)motivation for myself (and apparently others) to just say "screw that, I'm not getting caught up in this". I mean, look, User:Casliber has already put up a big yellow warning message box at the top of this page, and added at least one authoritative "facilitator" message in order to steer the discussion. Screw it, it's just not worth getting further involved in this. I'm just waiting to see what you all decide, and I'll take what the MOS page says into consideration, now and once it's been changed.
  — V = IR (Talk • Contribs) 21:04, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

::::I note that some of the most frequent Manual of Style contributors haven't commented here. Maybe that's why, or maybe people are having trouble finding this page. For myself, if "a determination isn't realised", I'm confident I won't be accused of "conduct violations" unless I start personal attacks, or ignoring warnings or something. However, those participants who have a hard time avoiding personal attacks may prefer to stay away. Art LaPella (talk) 21:42, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

:::::I'm fairly confident that I haven't done anything wrong either, but how do you know what arbitrators (or their enforcement squad, for that matter) will consider a "conduct violation"? That term means different things to different people, and different things at different times, after all. It's not at all clear to me that their limiting their oversight to obvious personal attacks or ignored warnings... like I said, look at the authority that has already been exercised on this page. I'm not paranoid (nobody is after me), but... I mean, come on, why participate here at all at this point?
— V = IR (Talk • Contribs) 22:24, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

• Agree. Leave it alone for the time being. [Could someone collapse the blowout above?]. Tony (talk) 04:08, 28 May 2011 (UTC)
• Agree. Unless we have specific proposals for changes, I'd leave it alone. Dicklyon (talk) 08:26, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

• :I can see where you are coming from, but the idea that it's silly to use “eye–hand span” in the text of an article titled “eye-hand span” or vice versa should be mentioned somehow somewhere. ― A. di M.​_plé​^dréachtaí 12:49, 19 May 2011 (UTC)
• ::When we get done with this exercise, I shall propose a text consisting of the points on which we agree. At that point we can enlarge it by consensus. Some wording about the desirability of an article spelling its subject like the title may well be consensus. (There may be exceptions, where the article uses a "correct" spelling and the title doesn't.) Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:31, 19 May 2011 (UTC)
• :::If agreement takes “unanimity” literally, we seem to agree only on the current item 1, which I think we could have predicted. (and there are a few, such as those that insist on no dashes whatsoever, who probably disagree even on this). We might find agreement on a few others if we separate some of the different uses within the current categories, but even then I′m not sure we can find unanimous agreement. JeffConrad (talk) 20:50, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

• Wrong! Consistency across the encyclopedia is impractical, undesirable, and unimportant. On the style points on which English speakers most visibly diagree, such as the Oxford comma, the MOS already explicitly permits using either; our readers will - except for the most provincial ignoramuses - understand either. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:49, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

:I am not sure how you got "Consistency across the encyclopedia" from a reply that included agreement with an editor that stated, "the title and the article should be consistent". If someone agrees with what someone else says there seems to be no sense in repeating this just read what that person stated right? I was sure that Jeff meant any one particular title and that particular article associated with it. If he did not mean this then I do not agree with him but I feel, without even a response from him, that " the title and the article should be consistent" meant exactly what is printed. In that context I still agree. Otr500 (talk) 20:54, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

::By reading "a style should be consistent" literally. Thank you for explaining that you didn't mean that, but no more than what JeffConrad said. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:13, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

• But the question for this section is what, if anything, we all agree on; we can work up to a consensus text from there - in Wikipedia's private understanding of consensus, which will still exclude anything to which there is significant active objection. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:49, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

• styles do vary among publishers That's the point. I didn't say "consistently dashless," I said "not consistently dashed." Septentrionalis PMAnderson

• :Does anyone deliberately use a minus sign which hasn't identical height, thickness and length as the horizontal bar of the plus sign? (“Deliberately” as opposed to “because they are unable to or can't be arsed to make them the same”.) I'd be somewhat surprised by that. ― A. di M.​_plé​^dréachtaí 03:12, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
• ::I hate to shock you, but {{nowrap|. . .}} the New York Times Guide to Style and Usage says what it says. And Unix manual pages used a minus sign for an en dash (in partial defense of that practice, original troff did not have an en dash. But the result looked terrible nonetheless.). Several popular books on computer typography that are rigorous on the use of proper quotation marks and dashes seem to think that typewriter single and double quotes (' and ") are used for single and double primes (′ and ″). The moral? As much as I generally believe in following the major style guides, any recommendation still needs a sanity check. Having dealt with these issues when laser printers first became widely available 25 years ago, I’d have thought most people today would be up to speed. Clearly, I was mistaken. I would hope we could do better. JeffConrad (talk) 03:36, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
• Comment; A majority of newspapers are owned by a handful of companies. I do not ever wish to entertain the thought that newspapers are the sole guide to English usage. If this thought is being entertained then just forget everything and follow the New York Times Guide to Style and Usage. Newspapers in my area are horrible at punctuation and possibly saving space may be one intention. I am just stating that I would prefer another guide (primary) than one that can have a broad influence that may not accurately depict the over-all mainstream trend of authors and editors. If an author uses a hyphen or dash and the New York Times has decided against this usage do we agree to do away with them? I am against this as I feel there is a very important need for hyphens and dashes. Otr500 (talk) 13:05, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
• :As far as I am concerned, we would permit any reasonable pointing to be used consistently in any article; although systems which are exceedingly rare would probably be changed by consensus. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:07, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
• I had found a better verb than require for this, but I can't remember it. :-( ― A. di M.​_plé​^dréachtaí 15:47, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
• :God, I hate it when that happens! At least I'm not the only one...
  — V = IR (Talk • Contribs) 17:57, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
• :What about justify? ― A. di M.​_plé​^dréachtaí 11:17, 28 May 2011 (UTC)

Another area of dispute has been around how to handle exceptions. A few options are below. Again, this is not the time for debating these, but it might be helpful to note which have any support or if there are others that I missed. Feel free to remove this entire section if it doesn't belong here, I'm pretty confused about what we're doing so I might be putting this in the wrong place. Note that some of these are not necessarily mutually exclusive. ErikHaugen (talk | contribs) 18:59, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

• The MOS is just advisory or descriptive; any exceptions can be handled at article talk pages, etc.
• I don't support this at all, I don't want to have the discussion over and over. ErikHaugen (talk | contribs) 18:59, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
• Support; only really acceptable solution. This is what WP:Policy says guidelines are; the way to not have the same discussion over and over again is to ask the discussants at the second discussion to look at the first. If two or three discussions make the same decision, then it is time to add it to the guideline; that's how guidelines change.Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:07, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

• Tony's notify-WT:MOS-before-debate compromise: "Where consensus based on a strong majority of reliable sources is arrived at on an article's talk page, an exception to points versus or in other kinds of compounds> may be made for the article and any others that are closely related. The debate should be notified at the relevant talk pages and at WT:MOS"
• I don't like it, but I'm hoping we can compromise on something like this. ErikHaugen (talk | contribs) 18:59, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
• Oppose. Only marginally acceptable in Tony's proposal as a compromise; most of the opposition to that proposal is opposition to this idea. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:07, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

• Wikiprojects or MOS sub-pages can specify their own exceptions, eg. WP:MOSCHEM might weigh in about "carbon-/–carbon bond" or WP:MOSMED about "basal[ ]/-cell carcinoma", which should be derived relevant style guides and usage in reliable sources.
• Support. ErikHaugen (talk | contribs) 18:59, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
• Of course they can. But that does not replace the normal flow of discussion. What a WikiProject can do, any group of editors can do; that's all a WikiProject is. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:07, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
• Example here: "silver(I) fluoride not silver (I) fluoride. Note that this is an exception to the usual English style for parentheses." Art LaPella (talk) 19:12, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

1. Does the list of dash disagreements include everything except ranges?
2. Should the authority of the Manual of Style be on the list of disagreements? Obviously we disagree on that issue, so perhaps Casliber should decide the scope of the list he wants.
3. Do we need anything procedural other than a disagreement list, to satisfy the request for "determining the structure of a discussion"? Art LaPella (talk) 17:22, 21 May 2011 (UTC)
4. : A few thoughts:
5. :# It seems to me that we also agree on items 4 and 6 in the current WP:ENDASH (though I’d like to be sure that I understand what’s meant by item 4—the current wording is pretty vague).
6. :# If we do agree on items 4 and 6, it seems to me that we implicitly recognize (and accept) differences between common (though hardly universal) practice in the US vs. that elsewhere, and this could have some bearing on some of the items on which we seem to disagree.
7. :# We might also find agreement on parts of other items (e.g., {{xt|Michelson–Morely experiment}}) if we consider each use separately; I think we should make this separation (and any others that are needed), as Casliber has urged, lest we be left with “partial disagreements” that prove difficult to resolve without voluminous discussion.
8. :# I’m not quite sure what you mean by the second item—is this to say that we should decide whether the MOS is prescriptive or advisory for these items?
9. :# The question of “consensus” vs. unanimity may also need to be addressed; though WP:CONSENSUS seems impossible if there is any significant disagreement, it’s not clear that it requires unanimity. Moreover, it suggests that consensus is not strictly a numbers game. So far, most of us have simply expressed personal preferences, essentially, WP:ILIKEIT. I realize that a “quality of the arguments” approach could open an unmanageable can of worms; I honestly can’t see anything other than a tabulation of “major” style guides on each point would qualify, which could be a fairly significant undertaking. Hopefully, we could agree on what the guides say, but agreeing on which guides we accept as authoritative could be more difficult.
10. :# Whatever we do, I think it’s imperative that we address consistency between the title and article. It seems to me that we agree on this, but if so we should clearly so state, and possibly propose changing the MOS to reflect this.
11. : JeffConrad (talk) 21:06, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

::::*Do we agree on items 4 and 6? Well, anybody else?

::::*OK, if we're separating out "Michelson–Morley experiment", then let's get on with it.

::::*Yes, "prescriptive or advisory" means the same to me as "authority" (or lack of authority). "on these issues" is a restriction that hadn't occurred to me.

::::*I thought "consensus" vs. "unanimity" was an easy question. By definition, we need unanimity to say something isn't a disagreement; the only alternative would be to say the other side's disagreement is so wrong that it doesn't count as a disagreement. And we need consensus, not unanimity, when it comes time to settle those disagreements. If the other side is so wrong that their disagreement doesn't count as disagreement, then what better way to get them blocked than to proceed to the debate phase, where they will be obligated to deny the undeniable with arbitrators watching?

::::*Title matching article? Does that mean choose the title to match the article, and therefore match the MoS, despite what WP:TITLE says? Or does it mean choose the title to match reliable sources, then make the article match that title, despite what the MoS says? Art LaPella (talk) 02:19, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

{{od|4}}

• It seems to me we may agree agree on 6, but I’d still like to know what 4 is; quite honestly, I think it may be several things, and if that’s the case, it may not be just an instance of 6.
• I’d separate everything that might be a separate issue so that we (hopefully) need only re-vote once.
• We certainly need unanimity to say that there is no disagreement, but we ultimately may need to determine whether there is substantial agreement (or lack thereof) on certain uses.
• By “consistency between the title and article”, I meant simply that do we agree that if the article text uses a dash rather than a hyphen (or vice versa), the title should as well?

JeffConrad (talk) 05:22, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

• OK with me, except does "substantial agreement" mean everyone except, um, the most active editor in this arbitration? I really don't think that's what the arbitrators' motion means. And I assume your interpretation of "consistency" is a proposed item of disagreement, not agreement. Art LaPella (talk) 05:35, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

Since no one has offered a better description (or an example), I shall attempt the latter myself. Does “en dashes are used between track titles and durations, and between musicians and their instruments” refer to usage such as that in Kind of Blue? If so, I’d say it is indeed just an alternative to an unspaced em dash (which is used on many music albums that I have).

But an en dash is also sometimes used to mark items in a vertical list, especially as a second level under a bulleted list, for example,

• En dashes are used

  • – To stand for to or through in ranges ({{xt|pp. 211–19}}, {{xt|64–75%}}, {{xt|the 1939–45 war}}). Ranges expressed using prepositions ({{xt|from 450 to 500 people}} or {{xt|between 450 and 500 people}}) should not use dashes (not {{!xt|from 450–500 people}} or {{!xt|between 450–500 people}}). Number ranges must be spelled out if they involve a negative value or might be misconstrued as a subtraction ({{xt|−10 to 10}}, not {{!xt|−10–10}}).
  • – To stand for and between independent elements ({{xt|diode–transistor logic}}, {{xt|Michelson–Morley experiment}}). An en dash is not used for a hyphenated personal name ({{xt|Lennard-Jones potential}}, named after {{xt|John Lennard-Jones}}), nor a hyphenated place name ({{xt|Guinea-Bissau}}), nor with an element that lacks lexical independence (the prefix {{xt|Sino-}} in {{xt|Sino-Japanese trade}}).
  • – In compounds whose elements themselves contain hyphens or spaces ({{xt|the anti-conscription–pro-conscription debate}}) and when prefixing an element containing a space ({{xt|pre–World War II technologies}}, {{xt|ex–prime minister}}) – but usually not when prefixing an element containing a hyphen ({{xt|non-government-owned corporations}}, {{xt|semi-labor-intensive industries}}). However, recasting the phrase ({{xt|the conscription debate}}, {{xt|technologies prior to World War II}}) may be better style than compounding.

Such a use would obviously not be just a stylistic alternative to an unspaced em dash. A list such as I’ve shown is a bit messy to do even with full access to CSS (which does not include dash as a list-style-type), and is really tedious in Wikipedia, so I’m inclined to assume this was not the intent of “To separate items in a list”. But it conceivably could be read that way by someone familiar with “dash lists”. If indeed usage such as that in Kind of Blue is all that is meant, that or a similar link should make this clear. JeffConrad (talk) 06:25, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

On further thought, using an en dash to set off track times may be more than an alternative to an unspaced em dash (it’s not an application that would occur to me, anyway). So perhaps we should keep it separate just to be safe. As for linking of performers and instruments, I’ve seen this done with commas, unspaced em dashes, and sometimes en dashes; an en dash as an alternative to a comma and space is unusual, so perhaps this also deserves mention. In any event, unless the intent actually was to include a vertical list such as I’ve shown above, the wording should be more clear—in particular, “to separate items in a list” should be clarified, because with the normal definition of a list item, e.g.,

• Item one
• Item two
• Item three

the intended usage does no such thing—rather, it sorta kinda separates stuff in list items. Additionally, we should decide whether linking of performers and instruments requires (bad word, I suppose {{nowrap|. . .}}) an en dash, or whether some of the other more common approaches are acceptable alternatives.

Incidentally, I think it’s unfortunate that a dash list (or at least a mark other than a solid bullet) isn’t available, because a bulleted list nested within another bulleted list can be confusing. But that’s another topic for another time. JeffConrad (talk) 14:20, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

:I have interpreted "To separate items in a list ..." to mean that em dashes used to separate items in a list should be changed to en dashes. I can see how someone might interpret "separate items in a list" to mean that the dash comes first, but I interpreted "separate items in a list" as in Kind of Blue#Track listing (but not Kind of Blue#Release history, where the en dashes should be spaced). The em dash section says em dashes are only "parenthetical" and "as a sharp break", not lists. That's my interpretation of the rule as presently worded; it isn't an opinion about what the rule should be. Art LaPella (talk) 16:38, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

::And your interpretation is not that different from mine, but the current wording is nonetheless at odds with the normal sense of “list item”, and so vague that I could not understand it without finding an example (recall my original suggestion was simply that an example or a link to one) be provided. The separation of tracks and durations is also reasonably accomplished with a colon (e.g., {{xt|“So What”: 9:25}}), and the linking of musicians to instruments as in Kind of Blue#Musicians is most often done, at least on the covers/cases of the 1500 albums I have, with an em dash or a comma (the latter admittedly could be ambiguous in a context such as {{xt|Miles Davis, trumpet, band leader}}; a colon would avoid this, though it seems a less common construction.

:::One could, of course, see what was done with the original. In the case of Kind of Blue, the listing was {{xt|Miles Davis, trumpet and leader}}. JeffConrad (talk) 20:41, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

::But my point isn’t about what the rule should be, but rather that whatever it is should be clearly indicated, and if alternatives are proscribed, that also should be made clear. Here′s a usage that I can’t find described in any style guide (talk about “eccentric” {{nowrap|. . .}}), so the reader cannot look elsewhere for guidance. A law that requires a person of ordinary intelligence to guess at its meaning is void for vagueness, and I think the same concept is operable here. Again, my main suggestion was a better explanation or a an example (or a link to one); the latter would probably address the issue for now.

::It does seem that we’re both saying that this really isn’t a simple case of a stylistic alternative to an em dash, and if that’s indeed the case, items 4 and 6 should not be merged. JeffConrad (talk) 05:29, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

:::I'm not sure it still matters what we merge, because everyone else seems to have forgotten us. You suggested separate opinions on each example in the guideline (presumably not mine; I never heard of dash rules before Wikipedia; maybe dashes are a British thing.) So would it be helpful if I listed all those examples (excluding ranges, except as spacing examples)?

:::{{xt|male–female ratio}}, {{xt|4–3 win}}, {{xt|Lincoln–Douglas debate}}, {{xt|France–Germany border}}, {{xt|diode–transistor logic}}, {{xt|Michelson–Morley experiment}}, {{xt|Lennard-Jones potential}}, {{xt|Guinea-Bissau}}, {{xt|Sino-Japanese trade}}, {{xt|the anti-conscription–pro-conscription debate}}, {{xt|pre–World War II technologies}}, {{xt|ex–prime minister}}, {{xt|non-government-owned corporations}}, {{xt|semi-labor-intensive industries}}, {{xt|the New York – Sydney flight}}, {{xt|the New Zealand – South Africa grand final}}, {{xt|June 3, 1888 – August 18, 1940}}, {{xt|June–August 1940}}, {{xt|Seifert–van Kampen theorem}}, {{xt|Eye–hand span}}, {{!xt|--}}

:::The guideline has no examples for lists, em dash alternatives, nbsp before an en dash, or any kind of em dash. Art LaPella (talk) 17:29, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

::::I'm not sure we need to break out every example, but rather only each different type of usage, so that we avoid instances of “partial disagreement”. Whether it’s worth the effort depends on what it might accomplish: it seems to me that we might find agreement with {{xt|Michelson–Morely experiment}}, and maybe {{xt|4–3 win}} (I also suggested {{xt|5–4 decision}} because it’s a common occurrence, but I think it may be the same type of usage), but I′m not sure we’d find much agreement on other items. It also depends on the ultimate implications of anything but unanimity—what do we do where we don’t have unanimity? Does it matter whether we distinguish between “significant” disagreement and any disagreement?

::::Because I’ve been the one harping on it, it would seem reasonable for me to follow through by providing the breakout (and I already have a pretty good start on the main Talk; I could simply remove the preconceived results); others could then tweak it as they see fit. Hopefully, we could at least agree on which uses are distinct. But if no one cares, I’m not sure it’s worth doing.

::::Welcome to the wonderful world of style guide drafting. I’ve been involved in several such efforts over the years, and quickly recognized that it’s more of an undertaking than anyone ever imagines—so much so that I concluded that the only viable approach was to defer to extant, widely used guides and deal only with exceptions or ambiguities in their recommendations. Of course, one must then decide on the “authoritative” guides. In my organization, it was simple—we used what I dictated (For Americans wary of British conspiracies, we relied primarily on CMOS, supplemented by various ANSI and IEEE standards for technical material. Full disclosure: our technical writer was a Chicago alum). In standards organizations in which I was one vote, the process was a more democratic—but CMOS often prevailed because no one had any alternative recommendations. Chicago got there first with the thickest book {nowrap|. . .}}

::::I’ve used en dashes for 25 years, and thought I understood them fairly well. But apparently my interpretation of what Chicago recommended exceeded what they actually intended; I guess this argues for more examples rather than fewer. And I still don’t really understand item 4; I assume it doesn’t really refer to a “dash” list, but just what does it cover? Only vertical lists? only lists of items that pertain to sound recordings? Does it proscribe the usage on the original jacket of Kind of Blue?

::::Perhaps the guideline needs examples for lists, em dash alternatives, and at least a few showing em dash. It might be tough to illustrate the effect of   before an en dash without including a forced line break, but the purpose should at least be made clear. JeffConrad (talk) 21:20, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

It’s easier to just provide a more-detailed usage breakout than to debate whether it’s worthwhile to do so. If no one responds here, I’ll assume we agree to disagree on everything but items 1 and 6.

I’ve tried to describe a few distinct uses, and have added a few examples to ensure that we all have essentially the same understanding. Feel free to expand the breakout or revise descriptions. I fully recognize the additional complexity, but offhand, I don’t see a good alternative for dealing with the many “partial disagreements”.

As I indicated above, I still don’t really understand item 4:

1. Does it apply to inline lists or only to vertical lists?
2. Does it apply to other than articles on sound recordings? If so, are there some examples?
3. Does the current wording proscribe other ways of separating musicians and instruments ({{xt|Miles Davis, trumpet and leader}})?

JeffConrad (talk) 23:08, 23 May 2011 (UTC) Jeff Conrad

::For (3), I'd say commas are fine. Or colons, depending. However, we wouldn't want to use hyphens, which look decidedly unprofessional. I think this was intended as an typographic alternative to hyphens, not a description of whether you should use hyphens in the first place. Or, as others have pointed out, it's really just an alternative to em dashes, and follows em-dashing rules. Not so sure about the others, but (1) I think vertical is the model that they had in mind (remember, commas are acceptable too, and I'd use commas in-line) and (2) sure, operas, plays, etc.: anywhere you give credit. — kwami (talk) 03:55, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

En dashes ({{xt|–}}, –) have several distinct roles.

;1.

:To stand for to or through in ranges ({{xt|pp. 211–19}}, {{xt|64–75%}}, {{xt|the 1939–45 war}}). Ranges expressed using prepositions ({{xt|from 450 to 500 people}} or {{xt|between 450 and 500 people}}) should not use dashes (not {{!xt|from 450–500 people}} or {{!xt|between 450–500 people}}). Number ranges must be spelled out if they involve a negative value or might be misconstrued as a subtraction ({{xt|−10 to 10}}, not {{!xt|−10–10}}).

:* Agree?

;2.

:2a. To stand for to in a score or vote ({{xt|4–3 win}}, {{xt|5–4 decision}}).

:2b. To otherwise stand for to ({{xt|male–female ratio}}).

:2c. To stand for versus ({{xt|Lincoln–Douglas debate}}).

:2d. To stand for between ({{xt|male–female relations}}, {{xt|French–German border}}).

;3.

:3a. To stand for and between independent elements that are proper names ({{xt|Michelson–Morley experiment}}).

:3b. An en dash is not used for a hyphenated personal name ({{xt|Lennard-Jones potential}}, named after {{xt|John Lennard-Jones}}), nor a hyphenated place name ({{xt|Guinea-Bissau}}), nor with an element that lacks lexical independence (the prefix {{xt|Sino-}} in {{xt|Sino-Japanese trade}}).

:3c. To stand for and between other independent elements ({{xt|diode–transistor logic}}).

;4.

:To separate items in a list—for example, in articles about music albums, en dashes are used

::a. Between track titles and durations (Kind of Blue#Track listings).

::b. Between musicians and their instruments (Kind of Blue#Musicians).

::c. [Other uses and examples?]

:In this role, en dashes are always spaced.

;5.

:5a. In compounds whose elements themselves contain hyphens ({{xt|the anti-conscription–pro-conscription debate}}).

:5b. When prefixing an element containing a space ({{xt|pre–World War II technologies}}, {{xt|ex–prime minister}}).

:5c. Recasting the phrase ({{xt|the conscription debate}}, {{xt|technologies prior to World War II}}) may be better style than compounding.

;6.

:As a stylistic alternative to em dashes (see below).

:*Agree?

;Spacing

:a. Disjunctive en dashes are unspaced, except

:b. when there is a space within either one or both of the items ({{xt|the New York – Sydney flight}}; {{xt|the New Zealand – South Africa grand final}}; {{xt|June 3, 1888 – August 18, 1940}}.

:c. Exceptions are occasionally made where the item involves a spaced surname ({{xt|Seifert–van Kampen theorem}}).

The space before an en dash should preferably be a non-breaking space ( ).

;JeffConrad's list ends here

:There is more agreement than 1 and 6 alone; for example, we agree on 3b and 5c. We also agree on Spacing, b; but we agree that it's wrong.

:We also agree on a restricted form of 3a:

::3a'. En dashes can be used to stand for and between independent elements that are proper names ({{xt|Michelson–Morley experiment}}) - likewise (2). Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:48, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

:::"It’s easier to just provide a more-detailed usage breakout than to debate whether it’s worthwhile to do so" answers my main point. Thank you. Art LaPella (talk) 00:24, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

:::This seems to suggest that we must further determine whether we agree that a use is required, permitted, or disallowed. I’m not sure we agree that 3a should be optional, and even if we do, what about 3c and all of 5? Are you suggesting we agree that those uses should be disallowed? Though those who have commented here seem to agree that spacing (b) should at the very least be deprecated, we know full well that there are others who strongly disagree, and I’m not sure simply saying “Tough; you should have voted” is a great strategy (and I say this as one who thinks the spacing is off the wall). JeffConrad (talk) 06:43, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

:::::Those who think that Practice P should be required should agree that it is true that P should be permitted. If there is no consensus that P should be required, but a substantial body think so, our options are to permit P or to be silent. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:08, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

::::::I agree that there is no real difference between “agreement against” and “disagreement”, but still think we need to distinguish among require, permit, or disallow. That “substantial” agreement short of consensus for requiring a use mandates that we permit (but not require) it is one possible interpretation. But it’s not necessarily the only one—several have indicated opposition to too many options. I should say here that I don’t necessarily disagree with with Pmanderson’s position, but simply acknowledge that it’s not the only one. And we again go back to what constitutes “consensus”. Does it require unanimity? And if not, how far short can it be? JeffConrad (talk) 23:27, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

:::::::I have often distinguished unanimity for the purpose of determining the questions in this phase, from the consensus it will take to answer the questions in a later phase. You brought up "substantial agreement". I don't think the difference is important, because of how I (perhaps wrongly) read between the lines of "substantial agreement" and the lines of the arbitrators' motion. To speak more plainly, Septentrionalis's opinions are an underlying cause of this arbitration. If we don't even take his opinions to the debate phase, disregarding them on the grounds that they aren't a substantial disagreement, we would frustrate the main goal of the arbitration. A similar comment applies to Tony1 and spacing. But perhaps you didn't mean that. Art LaPella (talk) 23:54, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

::::I think this stage is to determine the questions, and the fact that spacing (b) has enough support to remain in the Manual is enough to show that there is significant disagreement on that issue. Art LaPella (talk) 20:43, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

:::::Well, it shows that there is one editor who reverts for it; in this case, I think that's all there is. Agreement against and disagreement have much the same practical effect: MOS should cease to require the spaces. It may or may not permit them; some people will use them anyway. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:08, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

::::::Actually, in Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 112#Spaces in endash there were at least half a dozen people insisting on the spaces. (Also, it is quite possible that someone could want to e.g. recommend spaces in usage 1, allow both forms in usage 2, and recommend no spaces in usage 3.) ― A. di M.​_plé​^dréachtaí 20:08, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

::::::I think "determining the structure of a discussion on En dashes" means discussing the spaces if we're discussing the rest of WP:DASH (the actual language of the motion is restricted to the title issue.) Even if the only obstacle were one editor who reverts for it, then I would think that would be part of the discussion. If that editor, or any other editor, is obstructing the consensus, then let's start the discussion so the arbitrators can see that behavior here. Are we discussing WP:DASH except "1 and 6 ... 3b and 5c"? And at least the title issue? Art LaPella (talk) 20:18, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

{{od|5}}

Ostensibly, we probably should limit discussion to uses of the en dash that might conceivably appear in titles. But if we agree that usage should be consistent between the title and the article text (and we seem to), we almost need to address the larger issue lest we end up with a schizoid overall policy on en dashes—I don’t think unintended consequences were the intent of the motion. And the greater issue involves spaces, especially since they could appear in article titles.

:OK. Art LaPella (talk) 23:35, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

::Concerning titles please comment on these quotes;

::*"The phrase "African American" (with no hyphen) is a noun. The phrase "African-American" (with a hyphen) is an adjective. In the past, there has been some confusion in terms of naming Wikipedia articles, but I think they've been straightened out for the most part."

::*"Nobody should be confused by "African-American" (with a hyphen) into thinking it has anything to do with relations between Africa and America. That would be signified by "African–American" (with an en-dash)." Otr500 (talk) 13:54, 29 May 2011 (UTC)

:::Neither is discussing the English language as it actually exists anywhere. Both are efforts to create a dogmatic Newspeak, and if both are genuine quotes from our talk pages (neither shows up on searching), the editor responsible should be ignored until he goes to play on the Newspeak Wikipedia, with its much simpler Manual of Style: "Hyphens are ungood." Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:44, 29 May 2011 (UTC)

For spaced dashes, here's an example from our shibboleth article. A section heading. Better:

:Castilian Spanish-Latin-American Spanish and Portuguese

or

:Castilian Spanish–Latin-American Spanish and Portuguese

or

:Castilian Spanish – Latin-American Spanish and Portuguese,

in a context were all headings are X-Y / X–Y.

BTW, what we had here, and what I've seen on many articles, were spaced hyphens: X - Y. — kwami (talk) 02:03, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

May 30 is tomorrow. The consensus seems to be to ignore the arbitrators' distinction between determining questions and answering them. OK, I'm assuming the new plan is to determine consensus based on the questions above. Art LaPella (talk) 20:52, 29 May 2011 (UTC)

:I think we still need to state what we think the questions are, even if we’ve answered them. If we have agreed on the questions, stating them should be simple and without controversy. But if there is disagreement about any of the stated questions, the answers (which in many cases, are that we disagree) are suspect.

:At this point the main questions seem to be whether we agree or disagree on en-dash uses in the current MOS. But I think we also need to include

:# How prescriptive the MOS should be.

:# Whether the MOS covers titles, and if it does, to what extent.

:# Whether we think usage in the titles should be consistent with usage in the text.

:# If we agree that, when a usage finds significant support short of unanimity, we agree that the usage should be permitted but not required (assuming, of course, that the MOS is at least partially prescriptive).

:# What we do with the MOS if we find we are short of unanimity (and perhaps even consensus) on some uses. Would this make the current MOS a non-consensus policy, and consequently render it null and void? Or would we conclude that, lacking consensus for change, the status quo prevails?

:JeffConrad (talk) 22:08, 29 May 2011 (UTC)

::Jeff: all good questions, but rather more major in scope than I think anyone thought of for this. Here are brief responses.

::(1) All style guides are both prescriptive and descriptive. To be descriptive alone means to recommend nothing where usage varies: all style guides strive for best practice. To guide is to mark some usages as preferred, and some as deprecated.

::(2,3) There's very little overlap between WP's Manual of Style (all 30 or so MoS pages) and WP:TITLE, which says nothing about punctuation, for example. The talk pages of WP:TITLE and WP:MOS – perhaps also some other MoS pages – need a short reminder at the top about coordination in matters of article titles and article text.

::(4,5) No professional publisher (in print or on the web) allows random, disparate style. Unanimous support for every clause is rarely possible on editorial boards; and no one here agrees with every point at WP:TITLE, or at the MoS pages. The usual consensus through robust discussion has served us well, although we might need small improvements in procedure.

::I want to make it clear that harmony among editors should be the first priority. I've no intention of getting into any steamed-up debates about en dashes; nor do I intend to go around systematically changing punctuation in article titles. Where reliable sources truly are a relevant consideration, that should be noted. And if there's strong support among a community of editors for an exception for the whole "Mexican~American War" group, sure, I'll make no objection. An editorial note at the top of each affected article would be helpful for newcomers. Tony (talk) 08:37, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

:::I have a problem with the "An editorial note at the top of each affected article would be helpful for newcomers." approach, because I see that used as a mechanism to "lock in" one particular style or other regardless of any outside opinions. I find that sort of "solution" to be worse than the perceived problem, especially since there really isn't a problem. There's no need to attempt to prevent styles from changing over time, after all. Besides, there's no requirement to check a pages talk page prior to editing the page. Let's not build artificial barriers, please.
— V = IR (Talk • Contribs) 12:09, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

:::I agree that harmony among editors should be paramount, so that the energy devoted to arguing (sometimes vehemently) about en dashes can be applied to more productive ends. My reason for suggesting that we include some of these points in a summary of this discussion is to make rehashes of the same issues in the near future less likely.

:::(1) If we agree that the MOS (in this context, which is all we were asked to address) is in some cases prescriptive, advisory in others, and perhaps even simply descriptive in others, then our summary of this discussion should so indicate. If it is concluded that some changes to the MOS are indicated, and we can apply these terms to specific uses under WP:ENDASH, so much the better.

:::(2),(3) If we agree that usage in titles should be consistent with that in article text (and I think we do), we should simply so state. Recall the hyphenation of ass-u-me {{nowrap|. . .}}

:::(4),(5) The operative word is random. Most publishers are pretty fussy about consistency within a single work, but many, including Chicago, are somewhat flexible about accommodating individual authors if those authors are self consistent. Complete inter-article consistency would be nearly impossible even with consensus (which we probably could never achieve); if we conclude that certain uses are required, encouraged, permitted, deprecated, or proscribed, we should simply so state (even if most are simply permitted with consistent usage). By doing so, we hopefully minimize the number of lengthy discussions such as this in the future.

:::Succinctly summarized: indicate what we have agreed to agree on, so we don′t need to discuss it again next week. JeffConrad (talk) 23:47, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

{{outdent}}

[Please comment after my post, not within it.–Noetica]

Art points out that questions need to be finalised. Jeff has posted useful ideas about the wider context in which MOS guidelines operate. But this page has returned, over its eleven days, to the MOS guidelines themselves. Four big questions emerge:

1. How much support should MOS have from style guides?
2. How much support does MOS have from style guides?
3. Which guides (or what general sorts) are relevant?
4. What are the best protocols for establishing guidelines?

From the wealth of discussion above, answers emerge also:

1. MOS, it seems to be agreed, must respect major style guides, and must show that it does so.
2. MOS already accords well with major style guides (going by the evidence for the en dash). If anything, it agrees with them too much; it's more eclectic than any other guide I've seen (except perhaps Cambridge Guide to English Usage). Nothing else, for example, has those limited-use spaced en dashes ({{xt|1 July 2009 – 3 May 2011}}) and en dashes like the ones CMOS wheeled out a century ago ({{xt|Ex–Secretary of State}}). MOS already caters for diversity, so there's something in it for everyone to dislike. Efforts to please one contingent must displease another group. Robust style guides live with that, and so do their users – just as we live with the awkward inevitability of π being irrational. It's how things are.
3. There is a core of respected style guides to take seriously. I see little support for newspaper stylebooks (APA's, the Associated Press Stylebook, for example). Their task is different. And there are no serious guides (beyond WP:MOS itself) for enormous collaborative online projects, so MOS must turn to the big names used for print: CMOS, New Hart's Rules (with its adjuncts), Butcher's, the better M-W products, the Gregg Reference Manual (huge and meticulously detailed; rarely mentioned here), and a few others. Then there are scientific and journal-publishing guides: the superb ACS Style Guide (from the American Chemical Society), and Scientific Style and Format (the CBE Manual). Preferences will differ; but it is agreed that these are weighty, while Truss's travesty is not.
4. Guidelines are to be negotiated by orderly discussion. Surely! No one seriously calls for a mere show of hands; no one expects (or gets) guidelines by fiat; and no one seriously expects unanimity. If those developing MOS have fallen short of high standards, let's do better. Let's be more vigilant to stem lapses when they arise.

Is any of that outlandish? Doesn't it arise naturally, from the tide of discussion on this page?

I agree with Tony's points above, though I would stress different notes in the same tune:

• (1) MOS does have to "prescribe"; but it's a separate issue, beyond MOS itself, to determine how its recommendations will be received.
• (2,3) WP:MOS is the Project's source of guidance for punctuation. No other guideline or policy page deals with it, including WP:TITLE, which is equally accepted as the place for specific policy on titles. Readers will expect title and text to match: in spelling, in form of name – and in punctuation where that is relevant. But there is no "jurisdictional" clash: WP:TITLE correctly stresses reliable sources; nothing in WP:MOS contradicts it. The logic is straightforward: WP:MOS could not make recommendations on punctuation (WP:HYPHEN, etc.), if WP:TITLE magically settled punctuation of titles by comparison of reliable sources (which vary wildly in punctuation), and therefore (because consistency is needed) in article text as well. No, WP:MOS has always advised on hyphens and dashes in titles; and if its guidelines are carefully developed, properly scrutinised, and clearly expressed, there is no genuine problem.
• (4,5) MOS should certainly take note of best practice (formulated in serious style guides), and present clear, usable standards for Wikipedia. If it achieves that, editors will accept it more happily. Otherwise they will not, and there is nothing anyone should, or can, do about it – beyond striving for an even better MOS. In the end, any style guide will cause grumbling; as much as anything else, this shows that editors are indeed guided by it, toward making better articles. And that means a better Wikipedia.

Is there any question to take to the community, now? I struggle to see how it would go, or what the point would be. I see no will for it. Taking Tony's lead, I too can concede the Mexican~American War articles for the foreseeable future, since it means so much to some editors. Let's agree to consistent use of hyphens in them all. ArbCom could move to settle that matter, or editors on this page could endorse a multiple RM that no one here should oppose.

Meanwhile, how about a return to normal development of WP:MOS. It's been protected for three months, and there's a backlog of barnacles to scour away. What's more, there's now a great deal of excellent commentary (some on this page) to use in polishing the hyphen and en dash guidelines. They're in good shape, but let's accept opinions expressed here: the details need to be articulated even better.

It's time to finish this. Let's learn from recent troubles; and let there be a return to core business – with more respect, more focus, more acceptance of diversity, but also more acceptance of strong, well-founded guidelines for the sake of all the articles, and all their readers.

Noetica^Tea? 15:05, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

:I agree that absent a very good reason for doing otherwise, we should be in accord with major style guides (and for the most part, I agree that we are); I’d probably include a couple of others (e.g., OSM and ''Garner’s Modern American Usage) in the list, but that’s more of a detail. The folks who have developed these guides aren’t exactly blockheads, and needlessly reinventing the wheel seems a questionable use of time and effort.

:If we decide that, for now, we simply choose to deal with the titles issue that got ArbCom involved, we should so state, perhaps concluding

:# There is some flexibility in choosing between en dashes and hyphens, especially when quality sources disagree, and the decision on which to use is to be worked out among an article’s authors in an orderly discussion.

:# That use of dashes and hyphens in a title be consistent with usage in article text (perhaps with title redirects regardless of what is chosen for a title).

:Again, whatever we’ve concluded here, we should summarize as succinctly as possible. No person in his or her right mind is going to sort through all that’s been said. JeffConrad (talk) 00:11, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

:::Anybody who claims that MOS accords with most style guides on dashes is presenting deliberate falsehoods. Our section on further reading chooses eight style guides. One of those supports the present wording; one is inaccessible to me; the other six do not. Similarly, a much longer list of style guides was compiled from Amazon, in order of sales rank. Of those, much less than half support the present text - and all of those but one are from the lower half of the list; including all those Noetica now cites. I therefore request that Noetica retract that claim, and all that depends on it; otherwise, I intend to cite this post as part of the evidence that Noetica is intellectually dishonest, and should be topic-banned.Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:02, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

::::Hmm, sounds like we missed a point of disagreement. It also sounds like at least one editor needs to be told to stop saying things like that. Art LaPella (talk) 21:54, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

::::::I am very tired of a small group of editors who will say and do anything to get their way. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:01, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

:::::::Yes, I know that is your position. Septentrionalis may feel free to interpret "at least one editor" as Noetica. And vice versa. Art LaPella (talk) 22:16, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

::::::::Then I wish your comment good fortune. And presumably Noetica does too. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:21, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

{{od|7}}

I wish we could avoid personal attacks and contentious comments such as “deliberate falsehoods”. Be assured that we have far more than one editor with a position not terribly different from Noetica’s. I remain baffled by some of Pmanderson’s statements about which style guides support what; I repeat here last week’s list of the top sellers on Amazon’s US web site:

:1. Publication Manual of the American Psychological Association, Sixth Edition: #19

:2. The Chicago Manual of Style, 16th Edition: #449

:3. The Elements of Style (4th Edition): #526

:4. A Manual for Writers of Research Papers, Theses, and Dissertations, Seventh Edition: Chicago Style for Students and Researchers: #696

:5. Garner’s Modern American Usage, 3rd ed.: #2,074

:6. Merriam-Webster’s Guide to Punctuation and Style: #12,396

:7. The Chicago Manual of Style, 15th Edition: #14,386

:8. MLA Style Manual and Guide to Scholarly Publishing, 3rd Edition: #20,161

:9. The New York Times Manual of Style and Usage: #27,743

:10. Words into Type, Third Edition: #34,474

:11. The Associated Press Stylebook: #111,881

:12. The Cambridge Grammar of the English Language: #122,589

:13. The Chicago Manual of Style, 14th Edition: #151,441

:14. Fowler’s Modern English Usage, 3rd rev. ed.: #191,507

:15. Fowler’s Modern English Usage: the Classic First Edition, ed. by David Crystal (2010): #194,870

:16. Scientific Style And Format: The CSE Manual for Authors, Editors, And Publishers: #238,629

:17. The Oxford Style Manual: #297,890

:18. New Hart’s Rules: The Handbook of Style for Writers and Editors: #406,432

:19. Merriam-Webster’s Manual for Writers and Editors: #796,570

As nearly as I can tell, (5), (6), (16), (17), (18), and (19) are in almost complete agreement with our current MOS (save perhaps the spaced en dashes), and (2), (7), (10) support many of the uses (I don′t have (13), but assume CMOS 14th is similar to the 13th, 15th, and 16th). Guides (3) and (14) are silent on the issue, and guides (1) and (8) are largely silent, failing to mention even uses they employ; it has been suggested that silence is disagreement, but I take that as simply one editor’s opinion. Guides (9) and (11) specifically deprecate the en dash (the NYT guide deprecates use except as a minus {{nowrap|. . .}} need I say more?). I don’t have access to (4), (12), and (15), so I can’t comment.

I agree that that it would be incorrect to claim that most major style guides support almost everything in our current MOS. But to imply that the current MOS finds little support in the guides is just not supported by the facts. JeffConrad (talk) 22:51, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

:Yes, guides vary. While I was away, 14 cheap used guides (less than $7 with shipping) that I ordered showed up at my house. Seven of them don't mention en dash at all, and seven of them overlap our guidelines to varying extents. Some specifically note that the en dash is problematic for not having a represenation on the typewriter, or that authors don't use it in manuscripts but that editors mark en dashes on the way to the typographer; the guides for editors and typographers mention it more than guides for authors do, in consequence. If you look at the Cambridge grammar (largely visible on Amazon, too rich to buy), it's clearly the most in-depth, sophisticated, and descriptive as opposed to prescriptive. It describes the extent to which usage varies (a few of the others do as well, noting that in some styles hyphens are commonly substituted for en dash), and it discusses British versus American usage (which is just in the use of spaces around en dash with spaced compounds, which is British, not American). It refers to the punctuation role of the en dash as "long hyphen", being a more descriptive term for its use, and explains that the long-hyphen indicator is realized by either an ordinary hyphen or an "en-rule", depending on the style. This supports our use of en dash as a typographic style, not a difference in name or spelling that could possibly be in conflict with WP:COMMONNAME, which was one novel theory against our style guidelines.

:It's interesting to see the different authors of guides infer the rules from the usage, some pretty general, and some pretty specific. I've been taught the more general form, so to see it broken up into special cases like our MOS does seems odd, and invites nit-picking; so I agreed that the merge of the different spaced en dash as em dash forms would be OK; I'd also merge some of the cases, and just go with the more general interpretations like the ones I was taught: "used between words of equal weight in a compound adjective", "used when the two elements are equal in importance and may be reversed without altering the meaning", "to link a compound term serving as an adjective when the elements of the compound are parallel in form (that is, the first does not modify the second)", "when the first part of the compound does not modify the meaning of the second part", "can be used to link 2 words or phrases representing items of equal rank and 2-word concepts", "semantic relationship is 'between X and Y' or 'from X to Y' ... [also] more than two components ... also found with adjectives derived from proper names", "to express tension or difference, or to denote a pairing in which the elements carry equal weight (love-hate relationships, contract-tort doctrines)", "when you have an equal-weighted pair serving as an adjective", among others. Yes, many guides also allow, or admit the use of, hyphens, saying things like "(Some publishers accept a hyphen but those who use the en dash feel that a hyphen is a poor substitute and should be reserved for its own distinct uses, as a connector in compound words and as a separator in showing syllabification.)" Our MOS is based on all of these concepts, however expressed.

:I was pleased to see the broad agreement. To the extent that we have a few people who take issue with some details, we can entertain proposals for changes; but for such disagreements to be taken elsewhere as a basis for ignoring and undermining the MOS seems to be a concept that the community has little taste for. We spent a few weeks to learn that one or two people disagree with a couple of details of the MOS, in exactly the places that were obvious at the outset. Let's be glad that we don't have a situation where we have to chuck it all and start a large-scale restyling, undoing the work of the last six years that brought WP up to a pretty good and consistent styling. If we keep in mind the permit/require distinction as I discussed above, it should be clear that no editor or reader has been inconvenienced by these provisions of the MOS, nor will they be in the future. If those editors who previously noted that they can't see the difference, or don't care, will refrain from stirring the pot, we can expect this stew to come out good.

:My thanks to all who participated, and my apologies for being rather unavailable to help while on the road in Eastern Europe and Asia. I took a photo of an English explanation of artifacts in the Archeological museum in Istanbul, to show how they used the en dash and hyphen there, in conformance with our MOS – unfortunately, I had my camera and computer stolen in London yesterday, so I can't share that with you, and I don't recall the examples I found; but they're not unique to my American training, nor to Britain.

:Dicklyon (talk) 03:53, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

::From the arbitrators' point of view, it doesn't matter if the rest of Wikipedia cares about style manuals, because that isn't where Septentrionalis just [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk%3AManual_of_Style%2Fdash_drafting&action=historysubmit&diff=432062998&oldid=431741453 drew his line in the sand] with everybody watching him. Art LaPella (talk) 05:35, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

:::Well, it wouldn't be the first, second, or third time he has accused me of lies and deliberate falsehoods, but I speak in good faith about what I have found, from looking way beyond the list of 8 that he refers to, and can provide copies and quotes from these many manuals to anyone who wants to dig deeper. He makes a good point, though, that our further-reading section could be expanded to better cover the sources of the en dash usages that we have adopted. Dicklyon (talk) 13:22, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

I must conclude that some few editors are so enamoured of the Oxford dash, that they are simply incapable of reporting what they see. Let us take the post that begins this section:

• Is this list of 19 books all of Amazon's style guides? By no means. [http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=style+guide#/ref=sr_kk_1?rh=i%3Aaps%2Ck%3Awriting+style+guide&keywords=writing+style+guide&ie=UTF8&qid=1307034222 Amazon has 1672 hits on "writing style guide"], most of them what we are discussing as style guides.
• Are they the top 19, or any other random selection? By no means. To suppose that would be to suppose that there were only 15 style guides in the top 194,870 books, and only 4 more in the next 600,000. (Not only absurd, but demonstrably false.) No, they are close to the top 14 style guides (of which two support the Oxford dash) salted with five poorly-selling ones, all of which do.
• Does CMOS (16th edition) support "many of the usages" in the present text of MOS? Disingenuous. It supports the uses on which this conversation agrees; it expressly does not support {{!xt|US–Canadian relations}} (or any use of an en dash as between); it is much more cautious than the present text of #5, and even so expressly supports {{xt|non-English-speaking peoples}} and {{xt|a two-thirds-full cup}} with two hyphens. (And thinks the latter should be reworded; as it should.) That leaves passing permission of part of #2, and part of #5. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:33, 2 June 2011 (UTC)
• :I think most of us know how to conduct a search on Amazon (or whatever); the hits are obviously more comprehensive, but require considerable culling to arrive at a useful list. I don’t think anyone suggested or imagined that the list above comprises all extant style guides; I simply included many that I have used for years, and other for which inclusion seemed indicated. But the list was originally posted on 13 May, so there has been plenty of time to address any significant omissions (in retrospect, I clearly should have included the MLA Handbook). If there are suggested additions. please feel free to make them. If someone starts citing the Hillbilly Gazette Gide to Gud Style (or its UK equivalent), I think it’s quite reasonable to cry foul. But I don’t think we’ve done anything of the sort
• :I think we readily acknowledge that CMOS 16 specifically does not endorse the en dash in the sense of between. I don’t think we disagree on your specific summary except perhaps on how to label it. JeffConrad (talk) 00:04, 3 June 2011 (UTC)
• ::Very well, you deny you have cherry-picked obscure style guides from OUP (and perhaps some other publishers whose house tradition is to publish style guides they do not themselves follow). The evidence does not support you. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:48, 3 June 2011 (UTC)
• :::Were it not a violation of talk page guidelines, I would respond with the final example of en-dash usage in the OSM. Though I don’t expect you to agree with me, I take issue with being called a liar. What’s puzzling is that the accusation doesn’t even make sense. Unless I’ve missed something, only (5), (14), (15), (17), and (18) are from OUP. I think we agree that (17) and (18) are not common in the US, but (17) is quite common elsewhere. To suggest that MAU and MEU are “obscure” is simply absurd. And to imply that Garner is somehow an OUP stooge is as insulting as it is absurd. So I guess I fail to follow your reasoning.
• :::For what it’s worth, I “cherry picked” most of the guides listed by including everything on my shelf (of the 19, I have 12), and originally cherry picked most of those by getting everything on the shelf of local bookstores (in the days when there were local bookstores). Except for New Hart’s Rules and USM, my local library has almost the same set of guides as I do, so we apparently share a penchant for obscurity. I added the AP and NYT style guides because of Dank’s comments, and you added the original edition of MEU.
• :::Again, I don’t think anyone claims that the list above is complete or even the best 19-guide selection. But the suggestion that the list was cherry picked in furtherance of some OUP conspiracy is a red herring that merits no serious consideration. JeffConrad (talk) 02:21, 4 June 2011 (UTC)
• ::::And I object quite strongly to having an unnatural usage supported by irrelevant citations of a loaded list. Modern English Usage is not obscure; indeed, the second edition, by Gowers, outsells much of this list, despite being out of print (it preserves much of Fowler's text, and agrees with him where it does not). Burchfield's redone edition, which saves nothing but the title, is obscure - and deserves to be. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:42, 4 June 2011 (UTC)
• :::::Full disclosure here: I have the 2nd ed. of MEU and prefer it (Do we actually agree on something?). I also have the 2nd ed. of MAU, though the differences there are far less. As of a couple of minutes ago, Amazon US showed the 2nd ed. of MEU at #544,407 in Books, so if we take that ranking as meaningful (and I’m not sure it is, especially for an out-of-print book), the 2nd ed. is far more “obscure” than the 3rd. That you think it should be just the opposite does not affect the ranking.
• :::::I don’t know quite what to do with “unnatural usage supported by irrelevant citations”, but let’s try to address the issue of a “loaded list”: what “unloaded” list would you propose in its place? Dank’s approach of taking the top sellers by category is arguably better than basing the choice on one’s own collection; if nothing else, it should make the choices less capricious (at least to the extent that Amazon’s categorizations aren’t capricious). This approach doesn’t directly give the overall rankings, but they could be readily found. One could also look at the bibliography in CMOS, which is quite comprehensive (though I concede it doesn’t include everything in the list above), or at 'OSM (which gives a much shorter list), or some other guide from a major publisher. JeffConrad (talk) 00:26, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
• ::::::*No, I prefer the first edition; the second is worth looking at because it preserves much of Fowler himself.
• ::::::*One unloaded list would be the top twenty style guides; this would be an arbitrary choice, but at least random. It would, it appears, include two proponents of the Oxford dash, printed by OUP and Merriam-Webster. That neither publisher follows its own traditional style guides is a strong indication that we should not either. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:44, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
• ::::::*:But even a list of the “top twenty style guides” is very dependent on how it is obtained. On the US site, almost any relevant search will yield many extraneous results unless it’s constrained to {{nowrap|“Reference > Writing”}}, and even then different results are obtained for style and style guide, and the more-restrictive latter criterion still generates quite a few extraneous results that include multiple editions of the same work, works essentially derivative of other works in the list, and works that are essentially irrelevant. Moreover, the overall (Books) rankings seem to change considerably in the course of a few days. For the UK site (yes, there actually are other English-speaking countries) it’s even more complicated because of the additional subcategories. And the rankings within subcategories don’t always match the overall rankings (e.g., Butcher is a step above CMOS in most cases, yet the CMOS overall ranking is far ahead of Butcher).
• ::::::*:So I’m not sure it’s that simple to get an unbiased, “authoritative” list. Though looking at Amazon rankings seemed an improvement over arbitrary claims of “top” style guides, I nonetheless indicated my reservations about the significance. Nothing in the course of further investigation has led me to feel otherwise. JeffConrad (talk) 01:06, 6 June 2011 (UTC)
• :::::::I would be perfectly willing to accept a top twenty from Amazon UK; it would only prove that the extensive use of the dash is a minority view in England, as well as the US. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:38, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

Can everyone who has already commented at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/dash drafting on questions that have now been segmented please go and comment in the individual segments? Show the way for the flood of other editors. Apologies for making folks do some segments again. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 05:26, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

:I admit I was annoyed, thinking that the results were already clear and this was unneeded extra rehashing. But as I see the comments developing on the more finely divided points, my feelings changed. You have managed to elicit a lot of detailed constructive ideas for improvements. Thanks. Dicklyon (talk) 03:22, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

Does 2.d. cover this? "[Dashes are used] To stand for between (male–female relations, French–German border)." ErikHaugen (talk | contribs) 19:37, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

:It would appear to be a separate "rule". New Hart's Rules (the most common style guide I know of to endorse that against usage) makes it a separate sentence. Needless to say, there is no agreement on it. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:34, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

Among the usages that I've found described in guides that would seem to encompass Mexican–American War and French–German border (which do both appear that way in multiple books) are:

• to mean the equivalent of "and", "to", or "versus" in two-word concepts where both words are of equal weight
• used when the two elements are equal in importance and may be reversed without altering the meaning
• to link a compound term serving as an adjective when the elements of the compound are parallel in form (that is, the first does not modify the second)
• when the first part of the compound does not modify the meaning of the second part
• semantic relationship is "between X and Y" or "from X to Y" ... [also] more than two components ... also found with adjectives derived from proper names
• to express tension or difference, or to denote a pairing in which the elements carry equal weight ... wherever movement or tension, rather than cooperation or unity, is felt
• use en dashes when you have an equal-weighted pair serving as an adjective
• items of equal weight
• used to indicate linkages such as boundaries, treaties, and oppositions
• often equivalent to "to" or "versus"
• to denote a pairing in which the elements carry equal weight
• between words that retain their separate identity in a compound adjective

Dicklyon (talk) 02:54, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

I'm having a tough time staying away from this. :)

Anyway, looking over everything that's been said, it's obvious to me that everyone involved in this is well informed on the issues (some more so then others, I'm sure, but we all seem well enough educated about English to be able to talk about the subject). There is voluminous debate here about the existence and merits behind various books on English grammar, but I don't see much discussion about what is best specifically for Wikipedia. While our medium is hardly unique, there are unique aspects to it. We can certainly agree that Wikipedia isn't a print medium, I'd hope. So, I'm hoping that along side continuing to spin our wheels and provide ammunition for the arbitration committee by going back and forth at each other about the merits (or lack thereof) to various grammatical works, maybe we could start a discussion about the reasons that certain practices are good or bad for Wikipedia.
— V = IR (Talk • Contribs) 01:05, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

:Sounds like a can of worms that may prove unclosable once opened {{nowrap|. . .}} The best thing for Wikipedia, of course, would be to put the time we’ve invested here into fixing far more serious shortcomings in articles (e.g., lack of sourcing and sometimes even content). But what could we do?

:# We could make the decision on a criterion such as following style guides (which don’t always agree), following usage (for which it could prove difficult to present a convincing case), consensus (our normal approach, though finding it here is proving difficult), or editors’ preferences by sheer numbers (which is not the way we normally do things). But how would we choose the criterion while avoid the current seemingly endless discussion?

:# We could avoid non-keyboard (essentially, non-ASCII) characters across the board, as some have proposed and avoid the problem altogether (many online version of newspapers do this for various reasons), though this might be difficult to reconcile with thousands of articles that already include non-ASCII characters, and would make the English Wikipedia almost unique. And it would pose serious problems for many technical articles.

:I guess this is to say that I don’t have a ready answer.

:Though I certainly agree that Wikipedia isn′t a print medium, I would ask, “So what?” And how many different kinds of “non-print media” are there and how do they relevantly differ? I suppose for an online medium, the display medium (e.g., a smart-phone display) might be a consideration. But if we were to seriously examine this, I think we’d find that dashes, quotes, and similar typographical details are a small part of the issue. And I think we should recognize that content can and will be repurposed, quite possibly for another medium, so we would be well advised to avoid writing the program that tracks exactly seventeen salesmen. JeffConrad (talk) 01:38, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

::Well, one thing that comes to my mind is that quite a bit of this issue is about typesetting. I mean, regardless of what we decide, or endorse, or whatever, we obviously don't and shouldn't expect people to enter the "correct" dash character from jump. That, and there's no locking articles once they're "done" (which they never actually are). I don't know, all of this is pretty nebulous in my own mind. I'm not one to lean on others much though, so I don't see any need to be enslaved to exactly what various style guides say. We should certainly be informed by them, but... as far as I know, none of them are written with the environment that we deal with here in Wikipedia in mind. I see the above sections moving too (if y'all aren't already there) some sort of a style guide battle royal, counting up the advice that they give and trying to weight them all... I don't see that as being a good way to settle all of this.
— V = IR (Talk • Contribs) 00:38, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

:::I agree that the current process is not ideal; the MOS has served us pretty well, and seems to enjoy broad support among people who know about it. Most editors remain oblivious, and enter all kinds of random junk that other editors have to clean up; such is life. It baffles me that a big deal is being made of this in the case of a particular minor punctuation issue. On the bright side, it appears that the detailed breakout that Casliber has assembled has attracted some very constructive ideas on how to fine-tune the en dash section, merging, simplifying, and rebalancing some of the points. It clearly won't be possible to make everybody happy at once, but it looks like we can probably find a broad consensus for modest changes that will improve the MOS. Should we start to propose and edit a replacement section, now that it's becoming clear what to do? Or wait six weeks?

:::As for arguing over books, that is indeed silly. In my estimation, half of all writer's guides don't mention en dash at all, because their audience is people with typewriters, or with non-en-dash styles, or for writers who will leave the typographic style up to their editors. We already do accomodate that approach in WP, by allowing editors to just use hyphens, and other editors to style it toward MOS standards. So there's no sense in trying to "average those in". The only real disagreement seems to be the Chicago versus American/British/Australian usage. But the choice that was made years ago seems to be widely supported among WP editors who know and care about en dashes, and irrelevant to those who can't see the difference or don't care. Certainly the distraction caused by a few who very strongly prefer the Chicago style has been disruptive, but we'll get through it and back to constructive editing, I expect. Dicklyon (talk) 03:17, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

::::I′m somewhat baffled by “Chicago versus American/British/Australian usage”; unless I′ve really missed something, Chicago style is American usage, if one is to judge by sales and citations in other style guides. It’s certainly where I start, but I don’t think it’s necessarily dispositive on every issue, even in the US. Though it′s probably silly to argue about which guides can fit on the head of a pin, I think it′s equally silly to say they should be paid no heed. In the US, I would have a hard time with a list that did not begin with CMOS and include at least APA, MLA, S&W (though it’s not of much help here), probably GMAU, and perhaps CSE and a few others for specialized applications. In the UK, I would be suspicious of any list that did not include Butcher, OSM (or at least NHR), and yes, CMOS and S&W. We could argue forever about some of the others. I’ve used MWM and its predecessor M-W’s Standard American Style Manual for years because it covers many relevant topics and does so succinctly; whether it should be included in a short list is probably an unanswerable question.

::::I′m also surprised by the seeming deprecation of CMOS. Though Chicago don’t support every usage in the current MOS, they’re hardly dash averse, as a glance at [http://www.chicagomanualofstyle.org/CMS_FAQ/HyphensEnDashesEmDashes/HyphensEnDashesEmDashes_questions01.html these entries] from their monthly Q&A indicates. They really don’t differ that much from OSM, save perhaps the sense of between (perhaps better termed and). Chicago’s approach differs primarily in that it uses en dashes only when essential; [http://www.chicagomanualofstyle.org/CMS_FAQ/HyphensEnDashesEmDashes/HyphensEnDashesEmDashes55.html this Q&A] indicate that Chicago staff like subtle distinctions such as the en dash provides, they feel (probably correctly) that most readers will nonetheless see a hyphen. The result is that they would use {{xt|US-British relations}} but apparently {{xt|United States–British relations}} because of the open compound. Each to his own, but I find this somewhat confusing (something is different {{nowrap|. . .}} why?). And again, for those who can’t see the difference, what’s the problem? Of course there is the distinction between {{xt|Arab–Israeli conflict}} and {{xt|Arab-Israeli conflict}} (the latter possibly a domestic dispute involving an Israeli couple of Arab heritage?). Had Mitchell been charged with determining whether the issue should be described using an en dash or a hyphen, he probably never would have even accepted the assignment.

::::Though I support most of the en dash usage in our current MOS, I still consider myself very much a proponent of Chicago style. JeffConrad (talk) 05:21, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

:::::Jeff, I have nothing against the Chicago style, either; it's just that the CMOS keeps being cited by a few as the reason to ignore one wide class of usage that's not represented therein, but is widely represented in other American, British, and Australian guides. It doesn't seem appropriate to call this the "Oxford dash", since Oxford's guides are mixed on it, and many other publishers describe it as well (and also because the term Oxford seems to suggest that it is not in guides of American publishers); so I took Chicago to be the distinguishing feature of the argument. Dicklyon (talk) 06:04, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

::::::Dick, I don’t think we significantly disagree. GMAU, the obscure MWM (as well as the less obscure but also less comprehensive MWG), and to an extent, APA are the only guides that support most of our current WP:ENDASH, though many of the others are simply silent on some of the uses. Chicago specifically disagree with one usage, so they’ve apparently been libeled. As for my reaction to every reference to “Oxford dash”, further discussion would violate talk page guidelines. JeffConrad (talk) 06:43, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

:::I’m still a bit unclear on “the environment that we deal with here in Wikipedia” as it relates to style guides. Do you simply mean that many editors are new to writing and unfamiliar with such guides? If so, I have no disagreement, but wonder where it leads? Is it to suggest that anything goes? As Dick mentioned, we don’t get bent out of shape when readers enter hyphens for dashes, ASCII single and double quotes for primes, and similar—other editors serve as copy editors. Punctuation is easy to fix; unsourced garbage is a far more serious shortcoming that also often requires far more effort to fix. What surprises me are the vehement objections to cleanup that arguably changes what’s acceptable for many people to the proper usage (or typography if you prefer). For those who argue (probably correctly) that most readers cannot tell the difference between an en dash and a hyphen, what then is the problem with using an en dash?

:::It’s sometimes tough to distinguish typography from usage. Certainly, with access to many more characters, issues of usage arise that did not exist with a typewriter. But this additional repertoire has also led to some problems; uses (such as a hyphen for an en dash or minus sign) that gave an acceptable appearance with a monspaced font look far less acceptable (and sometimes result in ambiguity) in typeset material. So I think it’s more than a matter of being fancy. JeffConrad (talk) 05:21, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

{{outdent}}

[Please: comments beneath my post, not within it. Noetica^Tea? 07:27, 6 June 2011 (UTC)]

Jeff:

First let me thank you for your detailed and diligent work on these pages. It's time for me to comment on matters you touch on above.

1. Weightiness of style guides

I appreciate this business of listing Amazon sales numbers, but let's stress once more how incomplete that is as evidence of importance in serious publishing practice. We aren't sure how they are derived, for a start. Are they historically accurate, or only recently gathered with care? What is the situation with www.amazon.ca, and amazon.co.uk? It seems to me that some numbers are global, and some are (or have been) restricted to one site's sales. Next, if a huge publishing house buys just three copies of CMOS16 (and its editors may all normally use CMOS online, as I do), this hardly reflects on the weight it should be accorded. They probably don't even buy from Amazon: Chicago sells these things directly, as one option. Same of course for APA16, which we have seen ranked at an astonishing 19: that's 19th among all Amazon's book sales. And that's only edition 16, whereas earlier editions have also been separately listed for CMOS above on this page. In fact, outside the "older" humanities APA has an enormous following, well beyond the academic discipline of Psychology and well beyond its supposedly American constituency. As we know, it supports en dashes in the "oppositional" senses quite generally:

[...] used between words of equal weight in a compound adjective (e.g. Chicago–London flight). (APA16, p. 97)

Note the wording: "in a compound adjective", and note their example of a compound adjective. APA – quaintly, as an MLA-like relic of earlier times – immediately follows with this:

Type as an an dash or, if an en dash is not available on your keyboard, as a single hyphen. In either case, use no space before or after. (loc. cit.)

Now, every journal that publishes according to APA would demand an en dash in submissions; or at the very least they would convert that hyphen to an en dash. The hyphen is a legacy of days when authors left all that to typesetters. We can't do that here; but we can acknowledge that many editors will just use a hyphen and expect other editors to fix it. Or they'll be blissful unaware of all this tumult (lucky devils). The usage in question is one normal, international standard; and CMOS is indeed unusual in stickling against the en dash in just some oppositional cases. It even uses the en dash, copiously, in ways we might interpret as proscribed by CMOS itself.

2. "American" and "British" usage

Jeff, you say above:

I′m somewhat baffled by "Chicago versus American/British/Australian usage"; unless I′ve really missed something, Chicago style is American usage, if one is to judge by sales and citations in other style guides.

I hope that is answered now! CMOS is one predominantly American style guide. It is wildly outsold, and out-used, by APA. And then there is MAU, and MWM, and so on. But I would emphasise this: just as CMOS and APA have considerable respect beyond America for their competing prescriptions, so do Oxford and Cambridge beyond Britain, for their relatively synchronised recommendations. Indeed, it is wrong to see either of these as purely British publishers (Oxford especially has a huge American production; so does Penguin, so do many other British houses). Next, it is absurd to suppose that Oxford style guides intend to express Oxford house style. It would be just as absurd to say that CMOS is Chicago's own internal record of its practice, and nothing more. Publishers everywhere defer to New Hart's Rules (NHR). Even Butcher's (BCE; Cambridge) does! So do very many miscellaneous houses, like Pickering & Chatto [search for their online pdf style guide: Wikipedia just now stopped me posting the URL, as spam-suspect!] and innumerable others. And Oxford is not constrained to follow NHR. It is adaptable to circumstances and readerships, with the sophistication and wisdom we would expect.

It is artificial to speak of any one style guide's corpus of practice as equivalent to "American usage" or to "British usage" (or "Australian", etc.). Dick is right when he opposes CMOS style to "American/British/Australian usage". If there is an international consensus out there, it is heavily in favour of the sorts of uses MOS currently supports for en dash (though the spaced version apt for long-form date ranges is less commonly accepted, and I agree that it needs limiting). CMOS is an outlier, and its own usage is against its own odd mosaic of guidelines. That's for en dash; I could say more about apostrophes and ellipsis points, but that's for another time.

Yes, sources (even otherwise "reliable" sources) do all kinds of things. We are interested in best practice, not the churning chaos that it is easy to extract using Googlebooks. Why mimic disorder and inconsistency, when there are guidelines to emulate, adapt, and enshrine for Wikipedia? MOS should set up a standard, not a register of the accumulated failings of others.

Last on this point, it would be quite wrong to think that CGEL (the most influential and prestigious grammar of English in current use) is British. It is quite explicitly international; one editor is Australian and British in his career, the other British and American. Contributors are from all over the anglophone world. It describes widespread use of WP-type en dashes, and uses them copiously, if not consistently (as I would pedantically charge the editors), throughout its 1800+ pages.

3. Print guides for Wikipedia?

Certainly we have to respect and study style guides aimed at print. There is nothing else available, except Yahoo's [http://styleguide.yahoo.com amateurish effort]. Well, good luck to them: but we're streets ahead of them. (Incidentally, their print version is at odds with their online version in its implementation of styling. Not a good look.) And CMOS16, for all its vaunted embrace of the online world, misses the mark almost entirely: inconsistencies with terms, core issues ignored, total oldthink.

Equally certainly, we have to adapt what we find in those print style guides. This is not OR (the spectre of original research, which only applies to our articles in any case). It is a practical inevitability; and it is damn hard to do. So far MOS has performed heroically, achieving fine results against formidable opposition. I repeat what I have said elsewhere: there is no more comprehensive, more usable, more articulated set of guidelines for collaborative online writing to be found anywhere. If any editor knows of one, let's see it please.

What we are going through right now is a small but important chapter in the development of MOS: one of the more difficult chapters, sure. But among calls for adjustment we have seen strong support for the MOS guidelines as they have evolved so far, and strong support for the overall role of our community's home-grown Manual of Style. Let's maintain it, weed it of uncertainties and excess, and let the Project continue to benefit.

Noetica^Tea? 07:27, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

:::Speaking of really awful guides, I have a fun one: Handbook for Writers by Millard (can't find a copyright date). It doesn't mention en dashes at all, but section 35e says "Use a hyphen to express inclusive dates and pages". Then it gives three examples, each of which clearly uses an en dash! Apparently, the instructions to writers, even here, do not survive a pass by the standard editor/typographer. So yes, my guide is worse than yours. Dicklyon (talk) 04:43, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

::::Except you don't really want to argue that the worst guides are the self-contradictory ones. Art LaPella (talk) 06:03, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

::::Wasn′t Millard the copy editor for the Hillbilly Gazette? See Mencken above. JeffConrad (talk) 06:15, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

:::::Boston University. And it's really not a bad book, "for use in college composition courses". She thanks her typist. Clearly en dashes were not relevant to her advice, but somehow her editor/typographer didn't get the message. Sorry I made fun of it; it's not awful, and its error does make a relevant point. Dicklyon (talk) 06:27, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

::::::And I hardly can claim to never have made such an error. Unfortunately, few books are error free (witness even classics such as Sidney Ray’s Applied Photographic Optics, and from what I have read, the latest edition of CSE). Whenever tempted to shout “Mine’s bigger than yours”, we should remember that, except perhaps for the Gazette, most guides agree on far more than on what they disagree, and the average writer would be far better served by reference to almost any reasonable guide than by simple extraction from, well, a familiar place. JeffConrad (talk) 06:45, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

:@Noetica: “Consensus is Wikipedia's fundamental model for editorial decision-making”, hence, doing things “against formidable opposition” is most definitely not something to be flaunted. ― A. di M.​_plé​^dréachtaí 14:51, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

::With respect A di M, a point like the one you've just made could be judged captious, and it risks unleashing torrents of unhelpful text on the page. Perhaps that's my own fault, yes? One or two might resoundingly assert that. But let me give a brief answer.

::The effort to reach and implement consensus decisions can meet formidable opposition. It can be maligned and misrepresented in every available forum, near and far. It can be subverted by those who just don't like it, and will not accept it – despite any weight of evidence, any force of argument. MOS has performed amazingly well, surviving as a valuable resource for the Project. Right now for example we are seeing general community support for its guidelines on en dashes, intersecting with "the stretchingly difficult subject of hyphenation" (Burchfield, MEUB). I would be interested in responses to my challenge: find a better resource, for collaborative web editing. If you do find one, ask how it might succeed against odds such as our MOS contends with.

::MOS is developed by reasoned argument in orderly open discussion, despite formidable opposition to that process.

::Noetica^Tea? 23:10, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

So, yea, slight reboot here. One problem that we have is that the issues involved here have devolved into seemingly interminable bickering. Half of that problem, from my perspective, is cause by... well, what just happened above. I respect all of you, but you all seem to take this approach where you're trying to teach rather then actually addressing the issues with how your own views (what you guys are trying to teach) can work alongside with those of others. For example, the "to stand for between" usage seems to have proponents and some detractors, and each side can state their case well enough. So, that being the case, rather then trying to one up each other with "my source is better because..., so we should follow that style", my question instead is: "Which option is best for Wikipedia, and why?" That's what we're really interested in after all, and I'm just not seeing much of that.
— V = IR (Talk • Contribs) 18:18, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

: I think "here's what I think and why" is a reasonable response to the question "what is best for wikipedia?" What are you looking for here? ErikHaugen (talk | contribs) 18:33, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

::Honestly, I'm not even sure. I think that I'm just hoping for a slight change in tone. A change in viewpoint, I guess. I think that's what's going on below, in the #Possibilities for rewording mid-pollsection.
— V = IR (Talk • Contribs) 18:36, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

:V =, I genuinely would like to know what you mean by this: "One problem that we have is that the issues involved here have devolved into seemingly interminable bickering. Half of that problem, from my perspective, is cause by... well, what just happened above." What "just happened above" that you wish to comment on, and what is your specific analysis of it, and your reply to it? I hope we can express ourselves more directly, to put any confusion behind us.

:Noetica^Tea? 23:10, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

::Exactly what I said in the next sentence: "but you all seem to take this approach where you're trying to teach rather then actually addressing the issues with how your own views (what you guys are trying to teach) can work alongside with those of others." There's a bunch of somewhat long-winded explanations here, but there's very little discussion about actually resolving the points that are in dispute. It just seems to me that we need less "