Wikipedia talk:Vital articles/Level/4/Archive 77#Remove Wikipedia

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Another “doh!” facepalm, folks. How many more times will we have cases like this? Vileplume (talk) 01:59, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

;Support

1. As nom. Vileplume (talk) 01:59, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
2. Support credit. The Blue Rider File:Postal horn icon.svg 14:28, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
3. Support cash, given debit is enough probably for credit (might consider a swap however?). --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:42, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

;Oppose

1. Oppose credit as redundant to {{VA link|debt}}, {{VA link|credit card}} and {{VA link|loan}} at this level (all introduced at VA4). Also overlaps with {{VA link|mortgage}}. May support a swap with credit card. Gizza (talk) 03:54, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
2. : Credit is the counterpart of debt, makes no sense to list one and not the other. The Blue Rider File:Postal horn icon.svg 14:28, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
3. Oppose --Thi (talk) 11:47, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
4. As the editor who nominated these two at V5, there is a reason why I did not nominate them here. feminist🩸 (talk) 14:30, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
5. : And what's the reason? Credit is how most small to medium companies and families get capital from. The Blue Rider File:Postal horn icon.svg 23:03, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
6. ::@The Blue Rider And cash is a basic everyday concept for centuries. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:44, 2 March 2024 (UTC)
7. ::Cash as a concept represents money in the physical form, as distinct from an intangible form. {{VA link|Coin}} and {{VA link|Banknote}} (paper money) existed before the concept of "cash" is devised, because cash only became a distinct concept when non-physical money began. Therefore, the concept of physical money should be less important than the two primary forms of physical money.
8. ::Credit is a subtopic of debt; creditors only care about the creditworthiness of a person if they want to create debt. The capital that small businesses and families get is debt; they care about the amount, interest rate and payment terms of the debt, and this is affected by their credit, but also by the business decisions of the creditor. feminist🩸 (talk) 16:02, 2 March 2024 (UTC)
9. ::: Credit is the opposite of debt so one can't be a subtopic of the other, if anything debt is a subtopic of credit since the former can only occur when the latter happens. Eitherway, even though banks care about the debt, businesses and families care about the credit. Both equally important, it would be non-sense if credit doesn't pass. The Blue Rider File:Postal horn icon.svg 17:06, 2 March 2024 (UTC)
10. ::::One can absolutely have debt without credit. If someone causes you loss, they are indebted to you to the extent of their liability, without you providing any credit to that person. feminist🩸 (talk) 05:41, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

;Discussion

I was neutral on cash but with {{VA link|currency}}, {{VA link|banknote}} and {{VA link|coin}} (the two main modern forms of cash) all listed already, it weakens the case to also include cash. Gizza (talk) 05:49, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

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A regionally popular sport related to bowling that's, frankly, not all that popular. We have 4 bowling-related articles at his level, comprising almost 1% of the Everyday Life section. 11 interwikis.

;Support

1. As nom. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 18:58, 2 March 2024 (UTC)
2. I'm not even convinced that this should be V5. feminist🩸 (talk) 05:36, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
3. per above. starship.paint (RUN) 12:36, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
4. Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 01:33, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
5. Definitely at least VA5 worthy but not VA4. Aurangzebra (talk) 01:58, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
6. Possibly VA5 level but not VA4 Questions? four Olifanofmrtennant (she/her) 22:39, 21 March 2024 (UTC)
7. 690 dailies. Should be V5, but not V4. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 20:32, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
8. This obscure sport belongs at VA5. QuicoleJR (talk) 20:30, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
9. TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 14:47, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

;Oppose

;Discuss

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We should not list the history of country subdivisions at V4. {{VA link|History of the United Kingdom}} is enough. Vileplume (talk) 23:02, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

;Support

1. As nom. Vileplume (talk) 23:02, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

;Oppose

1. Both England and Scotland are countries in the same way as the {{VA link|Netherlands}} is a country, and both had been sovereign states for a very long time. The English Wikipedia attracts an English-speaking readership who would tend to be more interested in English-speaking places than non-English-speaking places, all else being equal. feminist🩸 (talk) 05:47, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
2. It's not the current nation-state status of these entities, it's their histories. Admittedly the histories of England and Scotland are intertwined, but the vital aspect of each warrants Level/4. (— 𝐬𝐝𝐒𝐝𝐬 — - talk)
3. :Further to this, {{VA link|History of England}} at least is on a par with {{VA link|Macedonia (ancient kingdom)}}. (— 𝐬𝐝𝐒𝐝𝐬 — - talk) 07:59, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
4. Oppose --Thi (talk) 09:04, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

;Discussion

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{{atopr|1=Not added 1-4. starship.paint (RUN) 03:38, 12 May 2024 (UTC)}}

Although it is not yet at Level/5, addition of this should be obvious. See: https://www.nature.com/nature-index/annual-tables/2023/institution/academic/all/global (— 𝐬𝐝𝐒𝐝𝐬 — - talk) 08:17, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

;Support

1. As nom. (— 𝐬𝐝𝐒𝐝𝐬 — - talk) 08:17, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

;Oppose

1. Definitely not the first university I would add. Too recent (only established in 2012). Either of {{VA link|University of Hong Kong}}, {{VA link|Fudan University}}, {{VA link|Seoul National University}}, or {{VA link|National University of Singapore}} would be more established and a better addition among universities in Asia. feminist🩸 (talk) 10:57, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
2. :For that matter, I think {{VA link|Chinese Academy of Sciences}} would be a better addition to V5 than the university. feminist🩸 (talk) 02:23, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
3. Per feminist. Vileplume (talk) 16:34, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
4. Per above. --Thi (talk) 19:46, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

;Discuss

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| result = 8-0. Aurangzebra (talk) 22:56, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

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One is {{tq|a recognisable London landmark}}, the other is a run-off-the-mill box girder bridge.

;Support

1. As nominator. feminist🩸 (talk) 07:17, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 12:35, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 20:11, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
4. Yes, the name 'London Bridge' might be more recognized in the English speaking world, but 'Tower Bridge' is more vital. (— 𝐬𝐝𝐒𝐝𝐬 — - talk) 22:09, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
5. A globally known London landmark. Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 01:28, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
6. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 23:37, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
7. --LaukkuTheGreit (Talk•Contribs) 09:23, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
8. It looks like London Bridge is falling down to level 5.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 14:48, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

;Oppose

;Discuss

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| result = Both added 5-0. starship.paint (RUN) 08:15, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

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Currently these two pages are in Level 5. Both are high level methods for subdividing the discipline, and many of their subfields are significantly higher levels. Discussed on Level 3 and was suggested to bring it here. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 16:43, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

;Support

1. As nominator GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 06:13, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
2. Support physical geography. Human geography is somewhat recent and not widely studied per my view; I won't necessarily oppose though. The Blue Rider File:Postal horn icon.svg 17:47, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
3. Vileplume (talk) 22:21, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
4. Support human geography per nom; neutral on physical geography. The latter is much more represented on the list than the former IMO. Not only with all the landforms we list, but also {{VA link|Geomorphology}}, {{VA link|Hydrology}}, {{VA link|Climatology}}, {{VA link|Oceanography}}: its listing looks fairly redundant with {{VA link|Earth science}} and its subtopics. (Not sufficiently cognizant of this part of the list to oppose though.) Human geography, however, definitely is a major academic disclipline in its own right. J947 ‡ ^edits 02:31, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
5. Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 02:43, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
6. --RekishiEJ (talk) 05:39, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

;Oppose

;Discuss

1. Comment: @User:The Blue Rider, just to clarify human geography is an umbrella term that looks at the spatial distribution of all human activities on the planet. This includes urban geography, health geography, economic geography, population geography, political geography, historical geography, military geography, etc. It is widely used in the United States to subdivide the discipline. A quick [https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C7&q=human+geogrpahy&btnG= Google scholar search] shows many hits, and one book from 1926 titled [https://www.google.com/books/edition/Principles_of_Human_Geography/ufcOAAAAMAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=human+geography&pg=PR15&printsec=frontcover Principles of Human Geography] does discuss it as a "new" term, however the concepts in the book go back millennia. I can provide citations if requested, but generally, the three branch model of human, physical, and technical (often with another name like "spatial") is the most common. Just wanted to clarify. I'm grateful for the challenge, as this question of human geography's legitimacy sent me down a research rabbit hole. As a geographer, human geography tends to be one of the rocks we never question and has been the dominant paradigm in academic geography in the past 50 years or so.GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 02:08, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
2. Comment: @User:J947, just to clarify, physical geography and earth science have significant overlap but do have some distinctions. First, "Earth science" is listed as one of the Four traditions of geography, which are one method to understand the organization of the discipline. Geography requires a spatial component and does not always employ the scientific method. Earth science can have a spatial component and does require the use of the scientific method (as per the name). Geography predated Earth science by at least a millennium as a term. One difference I like to use as an example is the difference between geology and geography. A geologist can use a microscope to look at crystals under a microscope and never get their boots dirty or look at a map, while geographers fundamentally require a "study area" if applied, and theory is related to the spatial phenomenon. Physical geography was the leading paradigm in the discipline until the mid 20th century, when human geography became more of a focus. Generally, geomorphology, climatology, etc. are viewed as partial sub-branches of physical geography, and in textbooks Physical geography would be placed above them in a hierarchy. I can get sources if needed.GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 17:52, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

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{{VA link|Mean}} is level 4 vitality, no need to list its sample form at such high level. Covariance on the other hand is widely used to measure the relationship between two variables. The Blue Rider File:Postal horn icon.svg 18:23, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

;Support

1. As nominator. The Blue Rider File:Postal horn icon.svg 18:23, 9 March 2024 (UTC)
2. Support per nom. Gizza (talk) 01:23, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
3. Support per nom. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 17:39, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
4. Support per nom. --Thi (talk) 13:25, 19 March 2024 (UTC)
5. TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 14:49, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
6. Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 01:54, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

;Oppose

;Discuss

• On a second thought, covariance might be too similar to {{VA link|correlation}}. The Blue Rider File:Postal horn icon.svg 18:45, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

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The process should be more important than the men who result from it.

;Support

1. As nominator. feminist🩸 (talk) 01:40, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

;Oppose

1. {{VA link|Female genital mutilation}} is listed and Eunuchs had a big historical importance in Imperial China and in the Middle East; eunuchs often held positions of power. The Blue Rider File:Postal horn icon.svg 16:00, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
2. Per The Blue Rider. {{emdash}} 🔥Jalapeño🔥 Stupid stuff I did 12:25, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
3. --Thi (talk) 19:47, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

;Discuss

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{{atopr|Not added 1-6. starship.paint (RUN) 14:41, 11 May 2024 (UTC)}}

A website that is in the top 10 most visited websites in the world. It has an influence on the internet that is significant for this level. Interstellarity (talk) 21:52, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

;Support

1. Interstellarity (talk) 21:52, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

;Oppose

1. Not on the same level as {{VA link|Google}}. The Blue Rider File:Postal horn icon.svg 17:05, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
2. Oppose Only a recent phenomenon. --Thi (talk) 13:11, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
3. Not on the level of {{VA link|Facebook}} or {{VA link|YouTube}} yet. QuicoleJR (talk) 20:22, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
4. Not as vital as stuff like {{VA link|Twitter}} and {{VA link|Instagram}}. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 21:44, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
5. Oppose Per Thi.
6. TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 14:55, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

;Discuss

1. Comment I think this is a great opportunity to take Facebook and Youtube down a notch to level 5 as well. They are all relatively recent phenomena. Clear up some space in Level 4.
2. : Wikipedia should be removed first. Feels like WP:NAVEL to me. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 01:48, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

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{{atopr|1=Not added 1-4. starship.paint (RUN) 03:34, 12 May 2024 (UTC)}}

Chromebooks are the only major operating system that we don't list. We list Windows, Mac, and Linux, but not this one. Interstellarity (talk) 13:09, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

;Support

1. Interstellarity (talk) 13:09, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

;Oppose

1. least important. VA5 is OK.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 14:55, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
2. Oppose --Thi (talk) 15:50, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
3. I am writing this on a Chromebook. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 18:00, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
4. per everyone else Aurangzebra (talk) 06:37, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

;Neutral

;Discussion

{{ping|TonyTheTiger|Thi|OhnoitsvileplumeXD|Aurangzebra}} How are Chromebooks the least important compared to other operating systems? Interstellarity (talk) 10:56, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

:Probably one of the biggest tells is that software providers typically don't write applications for ChromeOS whereas they do for Mac, Windows, and Linux. My guess is that the only reason why Chromebook's market share is as high as it is is because it's ubiquitous in schools due to its limited, straightforward platform. It's not really an OS people take too seriously. Aurangzebra (talk) 22:31, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

::I am not a tech guy. That was my raw interpretation of the market. Things like what Aurangzebra pointed to regarding software point me to that belief. I don't know what the overall usage is, but my recollection of traffic reports on a website were that chromeOS site traffic was lower than the others.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:38, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

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Per @Aszx5000 recent note in the level 3 discussion. The Rhine-Ruhr region stands as one of the pivotal centers in Europe. Germany has only one other region at level 4, despite being the most influential country in Europe and the most populous in the EU. Respublik (talk) 14:39, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

;Support

1. As nominator. Respublik (talk) 14:39, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

;Oppose

1. I’d add North Rhine-Westphalia first, since states are more vital than metro regions, and since no other metro regions are V5. I’d also promote Berlin to V3 first. OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 14:52, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

:#Support for an alternative addition of :North Rhine-Westphalia (reasonable for me). I guess it's a matter of which association is more of a priority between a more formal/historical or a more urbanistic one. I could also argue that just the Rhine-Ruhr's setup at 2/3 of the state's GDP (and at European context) has a better likeness at the XXI century to the historical importance of Rhineland, but then again it's a part of it. Respublik (talk) 15:39, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

;Discuss

I'm skeptical if there exist a spot in the current quota to add Berlin at V3. It would require more places for cities. Respublik (talk) 15:39, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

:The Meta list has 45 cities, so I’d probably redistribute some articles and/or increase quota by ~40% for all levels to reflect the growing size of the encyclopedia. OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 22:42, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

Eisaku Satō was certainly an important politician for his time, as one of the longer-serving Japanese prime ministers and the signatory of the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty, but I'm not sure what distinguishes him so much that he is listed alongside Meiji, Hirohito, Tojo and Abe. On the other hand, his brother Nobusuke Kishi is vital to understanding modern Japanese politics: he ruled Manchukuo, for which he was nicknamed the "Monster of the Shōwa era"; he was a high-level member of the civil-military dictatorship, even helping to bring down Tojo's government; he was considered a class-A war criminal, but never tried by the United States, as they considered him the best man to rule Japan after the war; he founded the Liberal Democratic Party, which has governed Japan as its dominant party since the 1950s; he helped establish the Asian Development Bank; he played a central role in the post-war rehabilitation of convicted war criminals; he was the focus of mass protests against his rule in 1960; he was a key influence on Korean dictator Park Chung-hee; and he helped bring the Unification Church into the government. Kishi has had an undeniably enduring effect on Japanese (and East Asian) politics up until this very day, and I think he is certainly vital enough for level 4. --Grnrchst (talk) 10:21, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

;Support

1. Support as nominator. --Grnrchst (talk) 10:21, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

;Oppose

;Discuss

We are currently under quota for Biology and health sciences, and occupational therapy feels just as important as a health care profession as {{VA link|Physical therapy}} and {{VA link|Radiation therapy}}, both of which are at V4.

;Support

1. As nominator. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 13:16, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

;Oppose

;Neutral

;Discuss

{{Clear}}

{{atop|status=FAILED|result=3-4 against + 30 days. Aszx5000 (talk) 13:55, 19 May 2024 (UTC)}}

Polish literature compared with Jewish has 2x interwiki links, equal page views, and equal number of Nobel prize lauratates (3 each, one of who, Singer, is Polish-Jewish). IMHO comparable to for example Spanish literature or such we list. Another swap to consider would be Ancient Egyptian literature which is of historical significance only and unlike Ancient Greek, Roman or Chinese diud not produce any enduing classics (side note here: we list Ancient Greek literature; sadly, neither Ancient Roman literature nor Ancient Roman literature nor Ancient Chinese literature have articles - the latter is just a redirect; to what degree with this overlaps with Chinese classics (V5) I am not sure ATM). Chinese classics may merit V4 discussion too. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 05:15, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

;Support

1. As nom. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 05:15, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
2. I certainly support adding Polish literature which is the oldest continuesly existing Slavic literatures, and arguably one of the two most important. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Marcelus (talk • contribs)
3. Support --Thi (talk) 12:57, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

;Oppose

1. Oppose. Not sure that the swapping of Jewish or Egyptian literature is correct (both are historically important and of foundation in all literature). I would need to see a stronger case as to why Polish literature (as a standalone nom) is important in a world context? Aszx5000 (talk) 20:53, 15 December 2023 (UTC)
2. Oppose removals. Polish literature is potentially level 4 vital with figures such as {{VA link|Czesław Miłosz}} but Jewish and Ancient Egypt literature are even more important. The Blue Rider File:Postal horn icon.svg 20:44, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
3. We list very few country literature articles and the countries we do list have been much more influential in literature than Poland has (France, Japan, Russia etc.). I'd much rather see American literature or British literature added first, both of whom have more than 2 times as many monthly pageviews (we already list {{VA link|English literature}} but it is VA3). Aurangzebra (talk) 05:07, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
4. per Aszx5000 and Aurangzebra. starship.paint (RUN) 01:07, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

;Discussion

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{{atopy

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| result = No consensus 1-2, proposed four months ago and no comments in two months. starship.paint (RUN) 03:50, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

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The articles in question are:

• {{VA link|Einsteinium}}
• {{VA link|Fermium}}
• {{VA link|Mendelevium}}
• {{VA link|Nobelium}}
• {{VA link|Lawrencium}}

It doesn’t make sense to me why the highest element we list is californium. I think this discussion is a good indicator of the vitality of elements with super high atomic numbers. I would be open to removing some elements starting from americium since the first ninety four elements are naturally occurring. Interstellarity (talk) 18:53, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

;Support

1. Interstellarity (talk) 18:53, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

;Oppose

1. Personally I'd rather remove some, if any change should be made. J947 ‡ ^edits 03:10, 27 January 2024 (UTC)
2. Per Marchantiophyta. feminist🩸 (talk) 14:08, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

;Neutral

;Discussion

{{VA link|Synthetic element}} is listed; note past discussions here and here. J947 ‡ ^edits 03:10, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

For what it's worth, Californium is the heaviest element with real-world applications so it's a reasonable place to stop. A case could maybe be made for Einsteinium as the heaviest element produced in visible quantities, but the remaining actinides are just too immaterial (figuratively and literally) to be "important". --Marchantiophyta (talk) 00:31, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

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{{atop|status=NO CONSENSUS|result=1-1 + 60 days; no !votes +30 days. Aszx5000 (talk) 14:04, 19 May 2024 (UTC)}}

{{VA link|Iraq}} is only VA4, and {{VA link|History of the Middle East}} covers it decently well, plus there are a lot of other Middle East countries with their histories at VA4. I think that the history of a VA4 country should be at VA5.

;Support

1. As nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 14:55, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

;Oppose

1. Per below. Vileplume (talk) 20:39, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

;Neutral

1. It's a special case due to the importance in history of Mesopotamia, which is today Iraq. (sdsds - talk) 23:17, 8 February 2024 (UTC)
2. :Then swap this for History of Mesopotamia. QuicoleJR (talk) 00:49, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
3. ::Which is not even V5. Vileplume (talk) 01:28, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

;Discuss

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{{atop|status=NO CONSENUS|result=1-1 + no !votes for 30 days. Aszx5000 (talk) 14:05, 19 May 2024 (UTC)}}

This single species has given rise to {{VA link|Kale}}, {{VA link|Cabbage}}, {{VA link|Broccoli}}, {{VA link|Kohlrabi}}, {{VA link|Collard (plant)}}, {{VA link|Gai lan}}, {{VA link|Savoy cabbage}}, and {{VA link|Brussels sprout}} as long as less vital varieties which makes me think this should be VA4.

;Support

1. as nom 115.188.119.62 (talk) 19:03, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

;Oppose

1. move {{VA link|Brassicaceae}} instead, to include mustard, etc. (— 𝐬𝐝𝐒𝐝𝐬 — - talk) 21:35, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

;Discuss

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Vital_articles/Level/4#Swap:_Remove_Melastomataceae_4,_add_Brassicaceae_5| I have a related proposal] to promote Brassicaceae to V4 by replacing a more obscure family. While B. oleracea is arguably the most important member, there are plenty of other important & vital species (Notably {{VA link|Horseradish}}, {{VA link|Arabidopsis thaliana}}, {{VA link|Radish}}, {{VA link|Rapeseed}}, {{VA link|Rutabaga}}, {{VA link|Eruca vesicaria}}, and {{VA link|Turnip}}) in the family, so I think it's a stronger candidate. -- Marchantiophyta (talk) 23:35, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

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{{atop|status=NO CONSENSUS|result=1-0 and not !votes for 30 days. Aszx5000 (talk) 14:12, 19 May 2024 (UTC)}}

Primary city of one of the largest agglomerations in the European Union. Vileplume (talk) 01:14, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

;Support

1. As nom. Vileplume (talk) 01:14, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

;Oppose

;Neutral

1. Disclaimer: it is my hometown and I'd like to support :) But I am also not convinced this is a V4 city, and I think vital lists have too many geographical locations... sigh. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:33, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

;Discussion

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| result = No consensus 2-1, proposed two months ago and no comments in two months. starship.paint (RUN) 03:52, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

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The largest country by GDP (#13 in the world) for which we do not list its history at V4. For reference, the next largest which we don't list is Switzerland (#20), which has a low population.

;Support

1. As nominator. feminist🩸 (talk) 06:05, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
2. {{VA link|South Korea}} being level 3 (for good reasons), the strong links between South Korea and the English Wikipedia readership and the strong effects aspects of the history of South Korea have had on geo-politics all provide motivation for this. (— 𝐬𝐝𝐒𝐝𝐬 — - talk) 07:43, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

;Oppose

1. Per vileplume, South Korea is a recent state; the Korean Peninsula has been unified for most of its history. The Blue Rider File:Postal horn icon.svg 17:23, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

;Discuss

• Is this redundant to {{VA link|History of Korea}}? Vileplume (talk) 16:39, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
• :It's no more redundant to History of Korea than {{VA link|History of the People's Republic of China}} is redundant to {{VA link|History of China}} or {{VA link|History of India (1947–present)}} is to {{VA link|History of India}}. The Republic of Korea was founded in 1948, which is between the founding of India (1947) and China (1949). feminist🩸 (talk) 02:20, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
• ::I see History of India as more of an article for the history of the Indian subcontinent. The article also has little information about the region post-independence. Vileplume (talk) 02:26, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

{{abot}}

{{Clear}}

{{atop|status=NO CONSENSUS|result=no !votes for ++30 days. Aszx5000 (talk) 14:17, 19 May 2024 (UTC)}}

It is the longest military conflict in the world, and its effects are felt in Southeast Asia.

;Support

1. As nom --Hoben7599 (talk) 09:41, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

;Oppose

;Discuss

{{abot}}

{{Clear}}

{{atop|Last comment 25 days ago. Failed 1-4. QuicoleJR (talk) 11:41, 17 May 2024 (UTC)}}

Not doing this to offend our community, but Wikipedia isn't that important compared to Twitter or Instagram which are both not listed. Considering that Wikimedia Foundation failed at level 5, it would make the most sense to demote this article to level 5. Interstellarity (talk) 12:13, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

;Support

1. Interstellarity (talk) 12:13, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

;Oppose

1. Obviously, it is not easy to talk about this neutrally but I do think Wikipedia is VA4-worthy. Sure, Instagram and Twitter may be used more but [https://www.similarweb.com/top-websites/ not by much]. But I don't think Wikipedia is just listed here because it's a well-known and frequently-visited website. It's also a technical feat. It's the first time in history we have been able to create a fairly accurate, fairly complete repository of the world's knowledge. I think this novelty makes it VA4-worthy and will ensure it stands the test of time as opposed to Twitter or Instagram. Aurangzebra (talk) 05:45, 20 April 2024 (UTC)
2. Much influence in modern information dissemination. Has all but supplanted traditional encyclopedias like the {{VA link|Encyclopædia Britannica}}.--LaukkuTheGreit (Talk•Contribs) 08:34, 20 April 2024 (UTC)
3. It's ok at this leval. --Thi (talk) 21:53, 20 April 2024 (UTC)
4. Weak oppose, although I would weakly support the addition of Twitter, which was swapped with {{VA link|Text messaging}} in early 2015. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 16:09, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

;Neutral

1. I agree that Wikipedia is not that far removed from Twitter, but Laukku does present a good point, in that Britannica is also VA4 so it makes sense for Wikipedia to be also listed as the same level. I'm not convinced on Instagram, but I do think Twitter may be worth adding due to its influence on dissemination of news, informaion, and on discourse, if we keep Wikipedia here. Iostn (talk) 21:36, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

;Discussion

{{abot}}

{{Clear}}

{{atopy

| status =

| result = No consensus 1-0, proposed two months ago and no further comments. starship.paint (RUN) 03:53, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

}}

Form of physical exercise done by humans and other animals.

;Support

1. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 12:42, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

;Oppose

;Discuss

{{abot}}

Diyarbakır is the largest Kurdish-majority city in Turkey and a focal point for ethnic conflict.

;Support

1. As nominator. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 13:17, 22 January 2024 (UTC)
2. This or add Konya; see #Remove Eskişehir. J947 ‡ ^edits 03:37, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

;Oppose

;Neutral

;Discuss

There are larger Kurdish-plurality cities, such as Kirkuk. OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 15:46, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

:I think Diyarbakır's larger than Kirkuk. J947 ‡ ^edits 03:37, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

{{Clear}}

{{atopg

| status =

| result = Swapped 5-0. starship.paint (RUN) 14:09, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

}}

The Brassicaceae are a POWERHOUSE of a family, containing {{VA link|Arabidopsis thaliana}}, {{VA link|Bok choy}}, {{VA link|Bomdong}}, {{VA link|Broccoli}}, {{VA link|Brussels sprout}}, {{VA link|Cabbage}}, {{VA link|Cauliflower}}, {{VA link|Chinese cabbage}}, {{VA link|Choy sum}}, {{VA link|Collard (plant)}}, {{VA link|Daikon}}, {{VA link|Eruca vesicaria}}, {{VA link|Gai lan}}, {{VA link|Garden cress}}, {{VA link|Horseradish}}, {{VA link|Kale}}, {{VA link|Kohlrabi}}, {{VA link|Mustard plant}}, {{VA link|Radish}}, {{VA link|Rapeseed}}, {{VA link|Rapini}}, {{VA link|Rutabaga}}, {{VA link|Savoy cabbage}}, {{VA link|Turnip}}, {{VA link|Wasabi}}, and {{VA link|Watercress}} (and hosting {{VA link|Pieris brassicae}}). Members of the family are found almost everywhere on earth and fill a wide variety of niches.

The Melastomataceae are one of the larger plant families, notable for being… not all that notable? They're common in the tropics, diverse in form, contain a number of ornamental plants, and see some use in traditional medicine – but these are all true of many other plant families not at level 4. The lack of culturally/economically/culinarily significant members is surprising given the size of the group, and size alone is not a good measure of vitality (arguments for including the nth largest family are generally applicable to the n+1th largest, and the n+2th largest, and so on).

;Support

1. As nominator --Marchantiophyta (talk) 01:09, 31 January 2024 (UTC)
2. Per nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 14:25, 1 February 2024 (UTC)
3. Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 09:13, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
4. Support --Thi (talk) 19:36, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
5. Support Lorax (talk) 02:20, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

;Oppose

;Discuss

Just to clarify, my proposal is to demote Melastomataceae to level 5 and promote Brassicaceae to level 4. -- Marchantiophyta (talk) 02:16, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

{{abot}}

{{Clear}}

{{atopg

| status =

| result = Added 5-0, no comments in 10 days. starship.paint (RUN) 14:26, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

}}

A daily activity for people in capitalist societies (read: most of the world).

;Support

1. As nominator. feminist🚰 (talk) 16:13, 12 February 2024 (UTC)
2. The inverse concept {{VA link|Sales}} is already level 4. Even if there were an article covering both sides of purchase transactions, that wouldn't address the browsing that separates shopping from purchasing. (Browsing is currently rated Start-class.) (— 𝐬𝐝𝐒𝐝𝐬 — - talk) 21:18, 12 February 2024 (UTC)
3. -TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:23, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
4. per above. starship.paint (RUN) 01:31, 2 March 2024 (UTC)
5. Support shopping has been around for a long time and a significant fraction of the world population does it. Lorax (talk) 02:25, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

;Oppose

;Discuss

{{abot}}

{{Clear}}

{{atopg

| status =

| result = Added 5-1. starship.paint (RUN) 09:46, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

}}

Capital and largest city of the Kurdistan Region, an ethnically and culturally distinct part of Iraq. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 02:26, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

;Support

1. As nominator. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 02:26, 14 January 2024 (UTC)
2. Seems important enough, capital of an important region and dates back to the 5th millennium BC. QuicoleJR (talk) 17:40, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
3. Per nominator. The Blue Rider File:Postal horn icon.svg 18:01, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
4. OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 18:14, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
5. Support per nom. Aszx5000 (talk) 13:58, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

;Oppose

1. I think V4 should have cities that people actually are likely to hear about on the global level. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:41, 15 January 2024 (UTC)
2. : Most people are ignorant so well-knownness is not a good metric. The Blue Rider File:Postal horn icon.svg 18:01, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
3. ::I would agree. Most Americans probably couldn't name two cities in Poland, but we have six cities in Poland on the VA4 list. QuicoleJR (talk) 19:01, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
4. :::{{small|I actually reckon most Americans wouldn't be able to name one Polish city, for what it's worth. J947 ‡ ^edits 21:01, 17 January 2024 (UTC)}}
5. ::::Maybe I should say "most reasonably well educated people, interested in global history and events"? _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 01:49, 22 January 2024 (UTC)
6. :::::I think it comes up fairly frequently in those circles to be honest. Due to war, I guess, but seems an odd reason to oppose. J947 ‡ ^edits 03:22, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

;Discuss

Iraq's size justifies listing a 4th city in addition to Baghdad, Mosul, and Basra, and Erbil stood out to me too as an omission when I checked over the list recently (certainly a notable city on a global scale). I've got a couple of qualms though. Firstly, it's not that big with a population of less than a million; Kirkuk is Iraq's 4th biggest city instead. Secondly, and more importantly, Erbil is right next door to Mosul, just 75 km between them. I'll probably support, but these are factors worth dwelling on. J947 ‡ ^edits 21:12, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

:Hmm I just noticed that we don't have Diyarbakır (another Kurdish-majority city) at V4, and it's a larger city than Erbil. I'll propose adding that. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 13:00, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

{{abot}}

{{Clear}}

{{atopg

| status =

| result = Added 5-0. starship.paint (RUN) 09:47, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

}}

This politician no doubt should be added, since he was the de facto supreme leader of the Ottoman Empire after 1914 (another man of the Three Pashas, Enver Pasha, is currently listed), and the main perpetrator of the Armenian Genocide (which is currently listed), besides, he is considered the de-facto builder of Modern Turkey by Hans-Lukas Kieser[https://turkishminute.com/2021/04/28/hero-founder-criminal-talat-is-still-alive-and-well-in-turkey/ Hero, founder, or criminal? Talaat is still alive and well in Turkey - Turkish Minute].

;Support

1. As nom.--RekishiEJ (talk) 03:08, 19 January 2024 (UTC)
2. Per nom. Also worth noting that the trial of his assassin directly inspired Rafael Lemkin's development of his ideas on prosecuting genocide. Talaat's biography is absolutely vital at this level. --Grnrchst (talk) 10:36, 19 January 2024 (UTC)
3. Per nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 14:32, 1 February 2024 (UTC)
4. Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 09:14, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
5. Per nom. Aszx5000 (talk) 14:00, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

;Oppose

;Discuss

{{Reflist|group=talaat}}

{{abot}}

{{Clear}}

Above a group of medical subjects was nominated as a batch because they had unanimously passed at Level 5 and it seems some of them are on their way to passing here. So here is another batch of unanimous level 5 passes. Since these took longer to achieve unanimous level 5 pass that may or may not indicate they are less vital. However, let's discuss the following.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 17:13, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

{{atopy

| status =

| result = No consensus 1-0, no comments in almost 4 months. starship.paint (RUN) 14:07, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

}}

;Support

1. Support as nom-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD), 17:13, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

;Oppose

;Discuss

• If the nominator presents a rationale for the inclusion I might support it. The Blue Rider File:Postal horn icon.svg 17:39, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

{{abot}}

{{atopy

| status =

| result = No consensus 1-1, no comments in almost 4 months. starship.paint (RUN) 14:07, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

}}

;Support

1. Support as nom-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD), 17:13, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

;Oppose

1. If I'm not mistaken a compress is a type of bandage, if so, oppose on the basis that it is too specific. The Blue Rider File:Postal horn icon.svg 17:34, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

;Discuss

{{abot}}

{{atopg

| status =

| result = Added 5-0, nominated 4 months ago and no votes in 9 days. starship.paint (RUN) 09:52, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

}}

;Support

1. Support as nom-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD), 17:13, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
2. Support a broad category with wide relevance Lorax (talk) 06:12, 30 January 2024 (UTC)
3. Support per above. starship.paint (RUN) 03:44, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
4. SailorGardevoir (talk) 20:10, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
5. Per nom. Aszx5000 (talk) 14:00, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

;Oppose

;Discuss

{{abot}}

{{atopy

| status =

| result = No consensus 1-1, no comments in three months. starship.paint (RUN) 03:56, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

}}

;Support

1. Support as nom-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD), 17:13, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

;Oppose

1. Widely used but redudant to the broader article {{VA link|bandage}}. The Blue Rider File:Postal horn icon.svg 17:27, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

;Discuss

{{abot}}

{{atopy

| status =

| result = No consensus 1-1, no comments in three months. starship.paint (RUN) 03:56, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

}}

• This is the stubbiest vital article I have seen, but hopefully its new VA-status will draw attention of knowledgeable editors.

;Support

1. Support as nom-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD), 17:13, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

;Oppose

1. In no universe this is level 4 vitality. The Blue Rider File:Postal horn icon.svg 17:23, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

;Discuss

{{abot}}

{{atopy

| status =

| result = No consensus 1-2, no comments in three months. starship.paint (RUN) 03:57, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

}}

;Support

1. Support as nom-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD), 17:13, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

;Oppose

1. A lot of these are commonly used, but to be sincere, equipments are normally too specific to level 4 vitality. Search and rescue, pulmonology, first aid are all better candidates. The Blue Rider File:Postal horn icon.svg 17:33, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
2. Oppose agree with the Blue Rider. Gizza (talk) 23:50, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

;Discuss

{{abot}}

{{atopy

| status =

| result = No consensus 1-0, no comments other than nomination in three months. starship.paint (RUN) 03:58, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

}}

;Support

1. Support as nom-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD), 17:13, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

;Oppose

;Discuss

{{abot}}

{{Clear}}

{{atopg

| status =

| result = Swapped 6-0. starship.paint (RUN) 09:52, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

}}

Zhejiang has a higher population and much larger economy than Guangxi.

;Support

1. As nominator. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 16:31, 26 January 2024 (UTC)
2. Support per nom (for those interested, I think we list one city in each of these Chinese provinces). J947 ‡ ^edits 03:12, 27 January 2024 (UTC)
3. :We don't list {{VA link|Haikou}}, {{VA link|Hohhot}}, {{VA link|Xining}} and {{VA link|Yinchuan}}, not that I necessarily think we should. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 13:13, 27 January 2024 (UTC)
4. makes sense Aurangzebra (talk) 06:07, 7 February 2024 (UTC)
5. SailorGardevoir (talk) 20:10, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
6. Per nom. Aszx5000 (talk) 14:01, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
7. I assume Guangxi is listed due to its status as an autonomous region and the homeland of the {{VA link|Zhuang people}}. Zhejiang also has more cities at V4 ({{VA link|Hangzhou}} and {{VA link|Ningbo}} versus just {{VA link|Nanning}}) and V5. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 14:24, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

;Oppose

;Mixed

;Discuss

{{abot}}

{{Clear}}

{{atop

| status = FAILED

| result = 3-3 with 3 ops and +30 days. Aszx5000 (talk) 20:20, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

}}

While she was once most notable as an incarcerated opposition leader (which she has become again funnily enough), I'd argue she is now more well-known as the first non-military head of government of Myanmar in decades (not to mention her position as a human rights darling being overshadowed by her actions in power). her father, {{VA link|Aung San}}, never got to lead Burma as an independent country before he was assassinated so I think he still listed there but, Suu Kyi, no.

;Support

1. Iostn (talk) 22:19, 4 February 2024 (UTC)
2. Agreed feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 04:49, 5 February 2024 (UTC)
3. SailorGardevoir (talk) 20:11, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

;Oppose

1. Her fame and vitality come from her past human rights track record and her Nobel Peace Prize. She didn't particularly do anything VA4-worthy in politics, especially considering how she only ended up being mildly better than her predecessors when it came to defending human and civil rights, and the fact that her political tenure was quickly squashed in the 2021 coup. As an example, If it came out tomorrow that {{VA link|Mother Teresa}} had been running a drug smuggling ring since she was 20, we wouldn't move her to Criminals even though that would be what people would associate her with going forward. Her VA4-worthiness came from her charity work and activism. Aurangzebra (talk) 06:05, 7 February 2024 (UTC)
2. :The categorization has actually been an issue already on V5 where several African (mostly anti-colonial) leaders were listed under revolutionaries and activists, and there was recently a vote in favour of moving them from there to politicians, so this is consistent with that. Even ignoring her term as State Councillor, she can still be considered a politician as leader of the NLD. Iostn (talk) 20:46, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
3. Oppose. Per Aurangzebra, she is not VA4 level as a politician. Aszx5000 (talk) 19:36, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
4. per Aurangzebra. starship.paint (RUN) 14:22, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

;Discussion

{{abot}}

{{Clear}}

{{atopg

| status =

| result = Added 6-0. starship.paint (RUN) 09:59, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

}}

{{VA link|Argentina}} is VA3, and it has been quite important to the {{VA link|History of South America}}. Arguably more important than {{VA link|History of Peru}} since {{VA link|Peru}} is only VA4, but the {{VA link|Inca Empire}} lets that article make it through, although an argument could be made for a swap with {{VA link|history of the Incas}}, which is not even listed at VA5.

;Support

1. As nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 21:27, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
2. Vileplume (talk) 20:38, 10 February 2024 (UTC)
3. -TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:22, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
4. Support --Thi (talk) 19:35, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
5. Per nom. Aszx5000 (talk) 20:15, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
6. Yes. Interstellarity (talk) 22:49, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

;Oppose

;Discuss

{{abot}}

{{Clear}}

{{atopg

| status =

| result = Added 5-0. starship.paint (RUN) 09:59, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

}}

A sovereign state whose existence stretched from the Crusades to the Cold War. Its kingdom was based on a blend of indigenous traditions, an ancient form of Christianity, and governance by the Solomonic Dynasty, which through the centuries included leaders such as {{VA link|Amda Seyon I}}, {{VA link|Zara Yaqob}}, {{VA link|Tewodros II}}, {{VA link|Yohannes IV}}, {{VA link|Menelik II}} and {{VA link|Haile Selassie}}. A cornerstone for African history. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 05:09, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

;Support

1. As nom. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 05:09, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
2. Per nominator. The Blue Rider File:Postal horn icon.svg 13:37, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
3. SailorGardevoir (talk) 20:11, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
4. Not V3, but certainly V4 material. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 21:12, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
5. Per nom. Aszx5000 (talk) 14:06, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

;Oppose

;Discuss

{{abot}}

{{Clear}}

{{atopg

| status =

| result = Removed 5-0, proposed 2 months ago, no votes in 9 days. starship.paint (RUN) 10:01, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

}}

We have 5 skiing articles at his level, and this does not seem specific enough. Only a modest fraction of the world's population has access to snow-covered landscapes. 6 interwikis.

;Support

1. As nom. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 18:58, 2 March 2024 (UTC)
2. Over 1% of the Everyday Life quota? No, this kind of stuff is not vital at V4. Vileplume (talk) 22:25, 2 March 2024 (UTC)
3. per above. starship.paint (RUN) 01:45, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
4. SailorGardevoir (talk) 20:12, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
5. Per nom. Aszx5000 (talk) 14:14, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

;Oppose

;Discuss

{{abot}}

{{Clear}}

{{atopg

| status =

| result = Swapped 5-0, proposed more than 2 months ago and no comments in more than a week. starship.paint (RUN) 10:14, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

}}

{{VA link|Diplomatics}} (in Auxiliary historical sciences) is somewhat obscure. {{VA link|History of spaceflight}} (in History of transport) is of considerable interest in the 20th and 21st century. (— 𝐬𝐝𝐒𝐝𝐬 — - talk) 05:16, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

;Support

1. As nom. (— 𝐬𝐝𝐒𝐝𝐬 — - talk) 05:16, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
2. Support --Thi (talk) 09:05, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 12:43, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
4. Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 01:32, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
5. Per nom. Aszx5000 (talk) 14:15, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

;Oppose

1. Diplomatics is vital in historiography, yet history of spaceflight is a mere sub-article.--RekishiEJ (talk) 05:31, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

;Neutral

;Discuss

{{abot}}

{{Clear}}

{{atopg

| status =

| result = Added 5-0. starship.paint (RUN) 10:11, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

}}

Surprised this is not listed. We list Totalitarianism, but not this article since this is the opposite of Democracy. Interstellarity (talk) 00:40, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

;Support

1. Interstellarity (talk) 00:40, 19 March 2024 (UTC)
2. Support --Thi (talk) 13:21, 19 March 2024 (UTC)
3. --RekishiEJ (talk) 11:19, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
4. SailorGardevoir (talk) 20:13, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
5. Per nom. Aszx5000 (talk) 14:18, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

;Oppose

;Neutral

;Discuss

{{abot}}

{{Clear}}

{{atopg

| status =

| result = Both added, personal computer 6-0 and mobile device 5-1. starship.paint (RUN) 10:02, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

}}

This is the most common computer in our daily lives. I am conisdering adding {{VA link|Mobile device}} since it covers things like tablets. Personal computer covers things like {{VA link|Laptop}} and {{VA link|Desktop computer}}. Interstellarity (talk) 12:38, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

;Support

1. Interstellarity (talk) 12:38, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
2. Support pc, oppose md. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 02:20, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
3. Add both.--RekishiEJ (talk) 12:50, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
4. Both-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 14:53, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
5. Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 01:53, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
6. Per nom. Aszx5000 (talk) 14:19, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

;Oppose

;Neutral

;Discuss

• Note, mobile device is one support vote away from passing at the time of this comment. starship.paint (RUN) 08:18, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

{{abot}}

{{Clear}}

{{atopg

| status =

| result = Added 5-1. starship.paint (RUN) 10:08, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

}}

Because he influenced Sergei Witte, the Young Turks (cf. Confiscation and Destruction: The Young Turk Seizure of Armenian Property), Deng Xiaoping's post-Mao policies and recent policies in India, he was no doubt a vital economic nationalist.

;Support

1. As nom.--RekishiEJ (talk) 12:50, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
2. His ideas were extremely influential in the developmental and industrial policies of Germany, South Korea, and Japan as well. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 01:50, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
3. The father of the Historical school of economics. The Blue Rider File:Postal horn icon.svg 14:47, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
4. SailorGardevoir (talk) 20:14, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
5. Per nom. Aszx5000 (talk) 14:20, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

;Oppose

1. Weak oppose. Not that many economists are listed, and were one to be added I'd prefer Joseph Schumpeter. J947 ‡ ^edits 05:47, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

;Discuss

{{abot}}

{{Clear}}

{{atopr

| status =

| result = Not added 4-3, proposed over a month ago, no votes in more than a week. starship.paint (RUN) 10:03, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

}}

There seems to be some support for this addition, and it makes sense since it is one of the most popular social media platforms alongside {{VA link|Facebook}} and {{VA link|Instagram}}. Interstellarity (talk) 12:54, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

;Support

1. Interstellarity (talk) 12:54, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
2. Weakly. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 22:52, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
3. Silly omission at present. Iskandar323 (talk) 15:53, 18 May 2024 (UTC)
4. Easily as penetrated as {{VA link|Facebook}}. Aszx5000 (talk) 14:23, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

;Oppose

1. Oppose Just another platform in systematic decline. --Thi (talk) 13:45, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
2. Per above, Elon Musk has changed Twitter and not for the better. starship.paint (RUN) 04:15, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
3. Of isolated importance. J947 ‡ ^edits 05:48, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

;Neutral

;Discussion

{{abot}}

{{Clear}}

{{atopg

| status =

| result = Moved 5-0, proposed over a month ago and no votes in over a week. starship.paint (RUN) 10:06, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

}}

I know that the classical music scene has historically been very bad at recognizing music composed by non-white men, and there has been a growing number of people performing her music, but I feel like her vitality still heavily stems from her being one of the leading pianists in the Romantic era. Unlike {{VA link|Sergei Rachmaninoff}}, who like her also mostly gave up on composing and spent the rest of his life being a performer, none of her works are listed as vital. Compare that to {{VA link|Leonard Bernstein}}, who despite giving us {{VA link|West Side Story}} is rightfully listed under conductors.

;Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 04:54, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
2. Support --Thi (talk) 08:18, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 02:53, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
4. Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 01:48, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
5. Per nom. Aszx5000 (talk) 14:27, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

;Oppose

;Discuss

{{abot}}

{{Clear}}

{{atopg

| status =

| result = Removed 5-2, proposed 17 days ago and last vote 9 days ago. starship.paint (RUN) 14:32, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

}}

VA4 is at 21 articles over quota, and VA4 Everyday life is at 23 articles over quota, so we've got to take action. This is the only specific type of {{VA link|Bread}} listed at V4 and it is not apparent to me why this is that vital. starship.paint (RUN) 12 May 2024 (UTC)

;Support

1. as nom. starship.paint (RUN) 12 May 2024 (UTC)
2. TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 08:15, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
3. Support per nom. --Thi (talk) 12:42, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
4. SailorGardevoir (talk) 20:15, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
5. Per nom. Aszx5000 (talk) 14:27, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

;Oppose

1. A whole bunch of cultures have some sort of flatbread _pbp 17:22, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
2. Per pbp. We have ten specific flatbreads at V5 and we should have the parent article at V4. {{VA link|Bread}} is V3, so this does not seem very redundant. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 18:35, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

;Discuss

{{abot}}

{{Clear}}

{{atopg

| status =

| result = Removed 6-0, proposed 17 days ago and last vote 8 days ago. starship.paint (RUN) 14:34, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

}}

VA4 is at 21 articles over quota, VA4 Society and social sciences is at 27 articles over quota, so we've got to take action. This is the earliest known scientific journal, but a minor one, V5 is appropriate, not V4. Compare to {{VA link|Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society}}, the second earliest known scientific journal. starship.paint (RUN) 09:29, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

;Support

1. as nom. starship.paint (RUN) 09:29, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
2. Support per nom. --Thi (talk) 12:39, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
3. Support The work doesn't hit me as hugely significant other than being first scientific journal, whatever that is, the author is not hugely known, signifant theories like the speed of light, are already listed separately and are significant in both science and public mind independent of this work.  Carlwev  13:42, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
4. SailorGardevoir (talk) 20:22, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
5. Per nom. Aszx5000 (talk) 14:32, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
6. Low-hanging fruit. Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society should probably be on the chopping block too. J947 ‡ ^edits 05:51, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

;Oppose

;Discuss

{{abot}}

{{Clear}}

{{atopg

| status =

| result = Removed 6-0, proposed 17 days ago and last vote 8 days ago. starship.paint (RUN) 14:34, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

}}

VA4 is at 21 articles over quota, VA4 Society and social sciences is at 27 articles over quota, so we've got to take action. This is a sparse article that I believe can be covered by {{VA link|Military tactics}}, {{VA link|Military strategy}}, and {{VA link|War}}. starship.paint (RUN) 09:29, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

;Support

1. as nom. starship.paint (RUN) 09:29, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
2. Support per nom. --Thi (talk) 12:39, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
3. Support agree with nom's comments.  Carlwev  13:44, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
4. SailorGardevoir (talk) 20:22, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
5. Per nom. 14:34, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
6. Support per nom. J947 ‡ ^edits 05:53, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

;Oppose

;Discuss

{{abot}}

{{Clear}}

{{atopg

| status =

| result = Removed 6-0, proposed 17 days ago and last vote 8 days ago. starship.paint (RUN) 14:35, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

}}

With a result of 7-4, Liqueur (not Liquor) was the article closest to being removed out of the [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Vital_articles/Level/4&diff=prev&oldid=1223462550 multi-removal nomination] of alcoholic beverages. Two opposers said that it would be better to open separate discussions. So here it is. The article is sparse and I believe this is niche for V4. We have 14 alcoholic drink articles at V4, time to cut it down. We're over quota by 21 articles. starship.paint (RUN) 13:46, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

;Support

1. as nom. starship.paint (RUN) 13:43, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
2. Support --Thi (talk) 10:01, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
3. SailorGardevoir (talk) 20:23, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
4. TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 01:55, 18 May 2024 (UTC)
5. Per nom. Aszx5000 (talk) 19:57, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
6. Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 03:14, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

;Oppose

;Discuss

{{abot}}

{{Clear}}

{{atopg

| status =

| result = Removed 6-0, proposed 20 days ago and last vote 16 days ago. starship.paint (RUN) 15:16, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

}}

Covered already by {{VA link|Child}}, {{VA link|Boy}} and {{VA link|Girl}}. We're over quota in total V4 and V4 Everyday life. starship.paint (RUN) 08:34, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

;Support

1. as nom. starship.paint (RUN) 08:34, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
2. Support per nom. --Thi (talk) 09:58, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
3. I have never even heard of this term. SailorGardevoir (talk) 20:24, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
4. : You've never even heard the term preteen? Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 21:14, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
5. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 21:14, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
6. _pbp 14:40, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
7. Aszx5000 (talk) 13:48, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

;Oppose

;Discuss

{{abot}}

{{Clear}}

{{atopg

| status =

| result = Removed 5-0, not enough support for any swaps. Proposed over three months ago and no votes in 10 days. starship.paint (RUN) 15:20, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

}}

We always try to counter U.S. bias, but rarely Canadian bias. We have one V4 American city for every 12.6m inhabitants, yet one Canadian city for every 7.8m inhabitants. At V5, it’s one US city for every 2.37m inhabitants and one Canadian city for every 1.86m inhabitants. We’ve been removing many contemporary U.S. politicians since late 2023, and now it’s horrendously underrepresented in that area compared to other Anglophone countries. In country subdivisions, we list 8 U.S. states, 4 regions (and I’d consider swapping New England for the Northeast), and Silicon Valley. Then we have four Canadian provinces, and this one is the safest choice for removal. Alberta is far less vital than {{VA link|Ohio}}, {{VA link|Kantō region}}, {{VA link|São Paulo (state)}}, etc imho. How is {{VA link|Krasnodar Krai}} not even V5? Vileplume (talk) 22:10, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

;Support

1. As nom. Vileplume (talk) 22:10, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
2. Swap with {{VA link|Ohio}} or remove. feminist🩸 (talk) 01:58, 16 February 2024 (UTC)
3. :Reasonable swap if we’re only listing one of Ohio’s three major cities - all comparable in population. I’m pretty sure Cincinnati was formerly V4, and a swap between Cleveland and Columbus was proposed relatively recently, but had no support other than nom. Vileplume (talk) 02:10, 16 February 2024 (UTC)
4. Per nom, we are overrepresented here. Aszx5000 (talk) 14:07, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
5. per above. starship.paint (RUN) 14:30, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
6. Support --Thi (talk) 14:13, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
7. Support swap with Canadian Prairies. Interstellarity (talk) 00:51, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

;Oppose

;Neutral

1. How about a swap with Canadian Prairies? The prairies cover a larger geographic area than all but approximately a dozen countries on earth. They're located in a relatively populous anglophone country and are of vital economic importance due to their abundant natural/agricultural resources. Additionally, they (and Alberta in particular) hold far more electoral sway than Ohio does. IRN-Dumas (talk) 17:35, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
2. :The swap was proposed recently, and the Prairies have a combined population of only 7.4 million, comparable to only Arizona, the fourteenth most populous state. Not more important than many U.S. regions we don't list. Economically, the region's GDP of $537 billion is comparable to 15th placer Tennessee. Ohio, on the other hand, has a population of 11.8 million and a GDP of $881 billion. Vileplume (talk) 18:16, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

;Discussion

{{ping|J947}} Would you still support a swap with Edmonton today? I would strongly oppose; it’s only comparable to Oklahoma City and Louisville. Vileplume (talk) 01:50, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

{{abot}}

{{Clear}}

{{atopy

| status = No consensus

| result = +30 days, no other !votes. Aszx5000 (talk) 19:04, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

}}

He was one of the most influential mathematicians of the 18th century, and made significant contributions to the development of {{VA link|Calculus}}. He developed {{VA link|Taylor's theorem}} (one of the central elementary tools in mathematical analysis) and {{VA link|Taylor series}} (very important in calculus).

;Support

1. As nom. EleniXDD※Talk 09:24, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

;Oppose

;Discussion

{{abot}}

{{Clear}}

{{atopy

| status = No consensus

| result = +60 days since last !vote. Aszx5000 (talk) 19:01, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

}}

84 iwikis. A piviotal event in the history of Eastern Europe and one of the causes of WWII. Suggested as possiibly V4 by {{u|Kammerer55}} recently in a V5 discussion. I concur. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:30, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

;Support

1. as nom. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:30, 2 March 2024 (UTC)
2. In the past junior high school world history textbooks in Taiwan mentioned this pact.--RekishiEJ (talk) 02:31, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

;Oppose

;Discuss

{{abot}}

{{Clear}}

{{atopy

| status = No consensus

| result = +30 days, no other !votes. Aszx5000 (talk) 19:05, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

}}

Since this person was vital in the industrialization of the Russian Empire, he definitely should be added.

;Support

1. As nom.--RekishiEJ (talk) 15:13, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

;Oppose

;Discuss

{{abot}}

{{Clear}}

{{atopy

| status = No consensus

| result = +30 days since last !vote. Aszx5000 (talk) 19:07, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

}}

Important state of life between Infancy and Childhood. Interstellarity (talk) 11:21, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

;Support

1. Interstellarity (talk) 11:21, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

;Oppose

1. Too niche, only encompasses 2 years. The Blue Rider File:Postal horn icon.svg 13:24, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

;Neutral

;Discussion

{{abot}}

{{Clear}}

{{atopy

| status = No consensus

| result = +30 days, no other !votes. Aszx5000 (talk) 19:08, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

}}

Fundamental concept of international law alongside {{VA link|War crime}}. 70 interwikis and rated High-Importance by a lot of WikiProjects.

;Support

1. As nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 01:22, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

;Oppose

;Neutral

;Discuss

{{abot}}

{{Clear}}

{{atopg

| status =

| result = Removed 5-0, proposed over 20 days ago and no votes in 7 days. starship.paint (RUN) 15:18, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

}}

VA4 is at 21 articles over quota, VA4 Everyday life is at 23 articles over quota, so we've got to take action. This is a niche sport more suitable for V5, I believe. starship.paint (RUN) 12 May 2024 (UTC)

;Support

1. as nom. starship.paint (RUN) 12 May 2024 (UTC)
2. TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 08:16, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
3. SailorGardevoir (talk) 20:15, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
4. Per nom, way to niche for Level 4. Aszx5000 (talk)
5. Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 23:37, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

;Oppose

1. Oppose Bandy is the second most played winter team sport after ice hockey. If we can list 8 tennis players and some figure skaters I think Bandy should be in.  Carlwev  11:23, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
2. :{{re|Carlwev}} - by all means, do nominate to remove some tennis players or figure skaters if they are not vital enough for you. starship.paint (RUN) 13:14, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

;Discuss

{{abot}}

{{Clear}}

{{atopg

| status =

| result = Removed 6-0, proposed 24 days ago and no votes in 7 days. starship.paint (RUN) 08:08, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

}}

VA4 is at 21 articles over quota, VA4 Everyday life is at 23 articles over quota. This is a niche sport more suitable for V5, I believe. starship.paint (RUN) 09:21, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

;Support

1. as nom. starship.paint (RUN) 09:21, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
2. Support per nom. --Thi (talk) 12:41, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
3. SailorGardevoir (talk) 20:15, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
4. Per nom. Way too niche. Aszx5000 (talk) 14:29, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
5. Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 23:38, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
6. Even {{VA link|Bilbao}} is probably more vital. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 20:10, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

;Oppose

;Discuss

{{abot}}

{{Clear}}

{{atopg

| status =

| result = Removed 7-0, proposed 24 days ago, no votes in 7 days. starship.paint (RUN) 08:06, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

}}

VA4 is at 21 articles over quota, VA4 Everyday life is at 23 articles over quota. This is a niche sport more suitable for V5, I believe. We already list {{VA link|Cue sports}}, {{VA link|Snooker}} and {{VA link|Pool (cue sports)}}, 3 cue sports articles are more than enough at VA4. starship.paint (RUN) 09:21, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

;Support

1. as nom. starship.paint (RUN) 09:21, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
2. Support per nom. --Thi (talk) 12:40, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
3. SailorGardevoir (talk) 20:16, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
4. Per nom. Way too niche. Aszx5000 (talk) 14:30, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
5. _pbp 17:21, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
6. Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 23:36, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
7. 🎱 Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 20:11, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

;Oppose

;Discuss

{{abot}}

{{Clear}}

{{atopr

| status = FAILED

| result = Failed to gain enough support and I'm also not sure I agree with the nomination myself anymore. Not removed, 4-3. λ NegativeMP1 02:45, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

}}

Vital 4 lists three specific, individual video game subjects. Video games are a fairly recent medium, so listing this few makes sense. Of those three, {{VA link|Mario}} and {{VA link|Pokémon}} are absolutely justified, being the face of video games and the highest grossing media franchise of all time respectively. What I don't think makes sense is listing {{VA link|Tetris}} at level 4. In my opinion, no individual video games are worthy of level 4 vitality just yet (no video games have reached levels of impact similar to some V4 films like {{VA link|The Birth of a Nation}}), but if any did qualify, I'd say it'd be an industry-defining, culture-defining game along the lines of {{VA link|Super Mario Bros.}} or {{VA link|The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time}}. Don't get me wrong, Tetris is incredibly important... to video games. I simply do not feel that the game is worthy of V4, where unlike V5, basically every media or art related listing has to have been proven to shift not only its entire industry, but pop culture as a whole. Plus, we're over quota on Everyday life and V4 as a whole.

;Support

1. As nom. λ NegativeMP1 03:12, 16 May 2024 (UTC)
2. Per nom. Always thought it was an odd choice. QuicoleJR (talk) 11:35, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
3. Per nom. Very specific to a certain generation of gamers, and never really that influential (industry, culture or technical). Aszx5000 (talk) 14:37, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

;Oppose

1. This is one of the biggest games of all time. SailorGardevoir (talk) 04:37, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
2. :I think you missed my point. It's not more important to human knowledge than video game genres or the games that literally revived/defined the industry. λ NegativeMP1 06:14, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
3. A video game classic that definitely should be kept.--RekishiEJ (talk) 14:03, 18 May 2024 (UTC)
4. Oppose  Carlwev  17:04, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
5. _pbp 22:26, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

;Neutral

;Discuss

{{abot}}

{{Clear}}

{{atopg

| status =

| result = Removed 5-0, proposed one month ago and no votes in 11+ days. starship.paint (RUN) 14:16, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

}}

VA4 is at 21 articles over quota, VA4 Geography is at 1 article over quota. As this article states, this is a sparsely populated area. starship.paint (RUN) 09:29, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

;Support

1. as nom. starship.paint (RUN) 09:29, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
2. NRW and Lombardy are better suited for V4. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 12:38, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
3. SailorGardevoir (talk) 20:23, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
4. Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 23:35, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
5. Per nom. Aszx5000 (talk) 14:02, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

;Oppose

;Discuss

{{abot}}

{{Clear}}

{{atopr

| status =

| result = Not removed 1-3 starship.paint (RUN) 00:34, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

}}

VA4 is at 21 articles over quota, VA4 Technology is at 44 articles over quota, so we've got to take action. It is not apparent, to me at least, what is so important about this genre of photography. starship.paint (RUN) 09:25, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

;Support

1. as nom. starship.paint (RUN) 09:25, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

;Oppose

1. Oppose Important form of art. --Thi (talk) 12:44, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
2. Per Thi. SailorGardevoir (talk) 20:21, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
3. With Photography itself largely covering the scientific aspect of the medium, it makes sense to list this as the genre that 6 VA4 people are listed for. J947 ‡ ^edits 22:20, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

;Discuss

{{abot}}

{{Clear}}

{{atopg

| status =

| result = Removed 5-0, proposed 20+ days ago, no comments in 16 days. starship.paint (RUN) 02:14, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

}}

{{VA link|Alfred Radcliffe-Brown}} does not appear as important as similar listed. It's not like we need another British anthropologist anyway.

;Support

1. Support as nom. J947 ‡ ^edits 05:43, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
2. Support per nom. --Thi (talk) 14:18, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
3. Support. Aszx5000 (talk) 17:15, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 14:59, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
5. {{VA link|Structural functionalism}}, his contributions to which is the main claim to vitality in his lead, is only VA5. Low pageviews for even a VA5 article.--LaukkuTheGreit (Talk•Contribs) 15:18, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

;Oppose

;Discussion

{{abot}}

{{Clear}}

We had a lot of discussion on the level 5 talk pages regarding changes to the rules of proposals, but very little discussion on the other levels. I would like to point out some things I have found compared to other levels. Levels 1-4 state that discussions run for 15 days before being closed while level 5 says 14 days. I think we should enjoy consistency with all the levels. Should there be a minimum number of participants before closing? Maybe add a minimum discussion open time after last comment. Comment here. Interstellarity (talk) 00:43, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

:Imo there's no need to implement changes for the sake of consistency. Level 5 discussions run for a shorter period of time because there are many more articles to deal with at that level and thus a shorter discussion time would accelerate the process. feminist🩸 (talk) 12:59, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

::+1, however seems that Level 5 should be set at 15 and it has the least disruption? Aszx5000 (talk) 14:10, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

{{Clear}}

There is a discussion about this topic at VA5 _pbp 22:17, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

{{Clear}}

I wanted to let you all know that I made some modifications to the random article buttons. Firstly, I have changed them so that they include the levels above it like all level 4 articles include levels 1, 2, and 3 and added random articles to each category so you could do a random level 4 people article. I think in this way, we can easily find articles that could be added and that do not belong on the level easily. Check it out for yourself. Please let me know what you like about it and what can be improved. I always welcome constructive feedback. Interstellarity (talk) 21:13, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

{{Clear}}

{{atopg|1= Added 5-1. No comments in 19 days. Makkool (talk) 06:53, 29 June 2024 (UTC)}}

Classic toy. More interwikis (if less daily views) than {{VA link|Yo-yo}} or {{VA link|Frisbee}} we list here. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 02:11, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

;Support

1. Support as nom --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 15:29, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
2. Sure. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 02:29, 19 January 2024 (UTC)
3. The entertainment of many. The Blue Rider File:Postal horn icon.svg 17:41, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
4. -TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:05, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
5. :This will make it a good parent for {{VA link|Dreidel}}-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 04:33, 23 May 2024 (UTC)
6. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 02:12, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

;Oppose

1. Almost disappeared now as a Toy (in the developed world); not sure that {{VA link|Frisbee}} should be Level 4 either. Aszx5000 (talk) 15:34, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

;Discuss

{{abot}}

{{Clear}}

{{atopg|1= Swapped 5-0. No comments in 15 days. Makkool (talk) 19:21, 27 June 2024 (UTC)}}

Proposing for similar reasons in my proposal for iPhone and iOS above. Interstellarity (talk) 23:58, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

;Support

1. Interstellarity (talk) 23:58, 19 February 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom, noting also {{VA link|Operating system}} covers the broad concept of MacOS. (— 𝐬𝐝𝐒𝐝𝐬 — - talk) 20:13, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
3. Per nom. Aszx5000 (talk) 14:08, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
4. λ NegativeMP1 18:15, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
5. per above. starship.paint (RUN) 14:19, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

;Oppose

;Neutral

;Discussion

{{abot}}

{{Clear}}

{{atopg|1= Added 5-0. No comments in 15 days. Makkool (talk) 14:23, 25 June 2024 (UTC)}}

We list the Industrial Revolution and Information Age which is the Third Industrial Revolution, but not this article. Interstellarity (talk) 13:29, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

;Support

1. Interstellarity (talk) 13:29, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
2. Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 01:52, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 14:48, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
4. Per nom. Aszx5000 (talk) 19:03, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
5. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 02:14, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

;Oppose

;Neutral

;Discussion

{{abot}}

{{Clear}}

{{atopg|1= Removed 5-1. Discussion started > 1 month, no comments in 2 weeks. starship.paint (RUN) 02:43, 22 June 2024 (UTC)}}

VA4 is at 21 articles over quota, VA4 Everyday life is at 23 articles over quota. This is a niche sport more suitable for V5, I believe. starship.paint (RUN) 09:21, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

;Support

1. as nom. starship.paint (RUN) 09:21, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
2. TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 10:13, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
3. Support per nom. --Thi (talk) 12:42, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
4. SailorGardevoir (talk) 20:15, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
5. Per nom. Aszx5000 (talk) 21:03, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

;Oppose

1. Oppose Not as popular as football but not obscure, played for over 800 years and still played. There are many professional and amateur grounds, I've seen it played locally and on national TV.  Carlwev  12:48, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

{{abot}}

{{Clear}}

{{atopg

| status = Removed

| result = 5-0, nominated over a month ago and no comments in over a week. starship.paint (RUN) 09:19, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

}}

VA4 is at 21 articles over quota, VA4 Technology is at 44 articles over quota. This topic on a textile technique does not appear important enough at this level. The article is sparse. starship.paint (RUN) 09:25, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

;Support

1. as nom. starship.paint (RUN) 09:25, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
2. Support per nom. --Thi (talk) 12:40, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
3. SailorGardevoir (talk) 20:16, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
4. Per nom. Aszx5000 (talk) 14:31, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
5. Interstellarity (talk) 23:58, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

;Oppose

;Discuss

{{abot}}

{{Clear}}

{{atopg

| status =

| result = Removed 5-0, nominated over a month ago and no comments in over a week. starship.paint (RUN) 09:21, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

}}

VA4 is at 21 articles over quota, VA4 Society and social sciences is at 27 articles over quota, so we've got to take action. This is a niche article more suitable for V5, I believe. Compare it to the 21 other articles in the same section link. starship.paint (RUN) 09:29, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

;Support

1. as nom. starship.paint (RUN) 09:29, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
2. Support per nom. --Thi (talk) 12:38, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
3. SailorGardevoir (talk) 20:23, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
4. Per nom. Aszx5000 (talk) 16:51, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
5. Interstellarity (talk) 00:27, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

;Oppose

;Discuss

It's a struggle to determine this concept's psychological importance while isolating its notability in popular culture. J947 ‡ ^edits 05:53, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

{{abot}}

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{{atopg

| status =

| result = Removed 5-0, nominated over a month ago and no comments in over two weeks. starship.paint (RUN) 09:22, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

}}

One of the oldest journals, yes, but it stands in its category alongside {{VA link|Science (journal)}} and {{VA link|Nature (journal)}}. This old journal simply is not prominent enough to warrant listing at this level. More appropriate for V5, and we are over quota for V4 in Society and social sciences. starship.paint 14:41, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

;Support

1. as nom. starship.paint 14:43, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
2. Support per nom. --Thi (talk) 18:26, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
3. Per nom. Aszx5000 (talk) 20:16, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
4. J947 ‡ ^edits 20:47, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
5. Interstellarity (talk) 20:48, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

;Oppose

;Discuss

• Suggested by {{u|J947}}. starship.paint (RUN) 14:43, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

{{abot}}

{{Clear}}

{{atopr

| status =

| result = Not removed 1-4. starship.paint (RUN) 09:23, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

}}

These two countries of the UK don't seem to have as much importance compared to England and Scotland. They could probably go. Interstellarity (talk) 19:36, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

;Support

1. Interstellarity (talk) 19:36, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

;Oppose

1. Oppose Wales, weak oppose NI. There are actually quite a few country subdivisions I would add to V4. These include NRW, Lombardy, São Paulo, the Kantō region, some more Indian and US states, a Mexican state, the Central Federal District (which isn't even V5), Galicia(EE), Donbas, and something from Africa. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 23:26, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
2. Per Vileplume _pbp 23:03, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
3. They are well-known outside the UK. --Thi (talk) 08:14, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
4. Oppose  Carlwev  06:37, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

;Neutral

;Discussion

Wales has a stronger case than Northern Ireland, but I oppose both. Wales has existed for almost 1000 years, has it's own people, history, culture and language. Although there are times where we list a city before its "subdivision" like Seattle before Washington. We list the capitals Cardiff and Belfast and in this case I think it would not make sense to list them without Wales and Northern Ireland, although I am not suggesting to remove those cities. We also list The Troubles aka Northern Ireland Conflict, a conflict regarding Northern Ireland that lasted around 30 years in the late 20th century, whilst the nation/division itself is over 100 years old, it would be odd to remove a nation but leave an article about an event from its history that is important but smaller in scope than the nation itself....We also list the UK possession of Gibraltar, which again I don't suggest to remove but seems less vital than Wales, and has little over 1% its population.  Carlwev  06:37, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

:I'd support Cardiff or Belfast being swapped out for {{VA link|Bristol}}. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 22:21, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

{{abot}}

{{Clear}}

{{archive top|status=passed|result=Moved, 5-0}}

In the Level 5 people pages, George Gershwin is under the Western art music section. And yeah, I think that's a more suitable place for him. I think the general consensus regarding him is that he is a classical composer who has a lot of jazz elements in his work.

;Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 10:42, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
2. Support per nom. --Thi (talk) 12:43, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
3. Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 23:33, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
4. Per nom. Aszx5000 (talk) 19:07, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
5. Makkool (talk) 06:50, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

;Oppose

;Discuss

• FYI, {{VA link|Scott Joplin}} is also in the Western art music section in the Level 5 pages; however, there is a specific subsection for ragtime composers. For now, I am fine with him being placed under jazz, but I would happily support anyone who wants to place him elsewhere. SailorGardevoir (talk) 10:42, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

{{archive bottom}}

{{Clear}}

{{atopr

| status = WITHDRAW

| result = None of these proposals had even the slightest chance of happening and were dumb in retrospect. I still strongly disagree with Tetris being the only example of a V4 game, but whatever. Was worth a shot. λ NegativeMP1 02:37, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

}}

Since my recent nomination to try and remove {{VA link|Tetris}} failed, and I stopped agreeing with it myself after a while, I thought about the question of if any video games and/or franchises could meet the V4 criteria or not. While the pool is below ten, I think it narrowly is a yes. So I'm creating nominations for five standout games/series that had an undeniable impact on pop culture that goes well beyond video games alone, each having similar cultural consciousness to Tetris. I'm also prefering to propose franchises here, as for broadness. No swaps are being proposed here per similar reasons to why I didn't suggest any when nominating Toy Story, though anyone is free to suggest them.

One final note: I'm not saying all of these deserve to be added, but rather they are probably the best choices for V4, and I still maintain that {{VA link|Tetris}} should not be the only V4 game. If some (or even all) fail, whatever. Without further ado... λ NegativeMP1 20:37, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

An extremely popular and important {{VA link|Arcade game}}. In-fact, it's probably the most iconic and important one, possibly even more than {{VA link|Pong}}. Hell, the titular character is more considered recognizable than {{VA link|Mario}}. This game is easily on the same level as {{VA link|Tetris}}.

;Support

1. As nom. λ NegativeMP1 20:37, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

;Oppose

1. Oppose This level needs only one example of video games. --Thi (talk) 08:40, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
2. Oppose, not vital enough for this level; the game was important for a small period of history and did not shape the world of gaming. Aszx5000 (talk) 09:55, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
3. Weak oppose straight addition, although I might support a swap with Tetris once some time passes since previous nomination. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 22:16, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

;Neutral

I'm not really sure if this one needs any further explanation. This franchise arguably saved video games in the west and created a cultural icon we already list at V4 {{VA link|Mario}}. The franchise is absolutely important and is generally what people think of when they think of a "video game." In a way, Mario is video games.

;Support

1. as nom. λ NegativeMP1 20:37, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

;Oppose

1. We don't need both the character and the franchise. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 23:07, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
2. Oppose Covered by Mario. --Thi (talk) 08:40, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
3. Either keep things as is or swap the character for the franchise (Related: the character and franchise articles should be merged) _pbp 17:39, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
4. Oppose, per above. Aszx5000 (talk) 09:55, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
5. Redundant article. Interstellarity (talk) 00:41, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

;Neutral

Similar to Super Mario, but on an ever so slightly smaller scale. This franchise is home to some of the highest rated video games of all time, [https://www.metacritic.com/game/the-legend-of-zelda-ocarina-of-time/critic-reviews/?platform=nintendo-64 including THE highest rated game of all time]. It'd take more than one hand to count the times this franchise has changed video games and pop culture as a whole. Also, {{VA link|The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time}} in particular I feel like could be considered the video game equivalent of {{VA link|Citizen Kane}}.

;Support

1. as nom. λ NegativeMP1 20:37, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

;Oppose

1. Oppose Specific games are not quite useful at this level, level 5 can include them all. I would add some other phenomenon such as Role-playing game. --Thi (talk) 08:40, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
2. :Honestly, that's wouldn't be a bad proposal, especially with how big games like {{VA link|Dungeons & Dragons}} are (and a lot of others). I can agree with you there. λ NegativeMP1 12:28, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
3. Oppose, not vital enough for this level; the game was important for a small period of history and did not shape the world of gaming. Aszx5000 (talk) 09:55, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

;Neutral

;Neutral

An absolutely massive game that completely changed the way video games were percieved by the world. It shifted the ways people thought video games could be, and may as well be the whole reason why some people think video games cause violence (an example). It is to this day still considered one of the most important games ever made. And for more video game based details, it popularized 3D games, changed the way video games were manufactured, and the ways multiplayer was viewed. And if this holds any weight, its the only game proposed here directly considered part of the Game canon.

;Support

1. As nom. λ NegativeMP1 20:37, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

;Oppose

1. Oppose Not central to current gaming culture. --Thi (talk) 08:40, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
2. My position that only franchises or anchor protagonists should be at this level holds _pbp 17:42, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
3. Oppose, not vital enough for this level; the game was important for a small period of history and did not shape the world of gaming. Aszx5000 (talk) 09:55, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

;Neutral

;Discuss

Previously failed here.--LaukkuTheGreit (Talk•Contribs) 07:02, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

An infamous franchise that I'm sure most people are aware of that changed the gaming industry (and public views on what media could be) time after time again. Games like Grand Theft Auto are probably the second most common view by the general public of what video games are, behind Super Mario.

;Support

1. As nom. λ NegativeMP1 20:37, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

;Oppose

1. Oppose Mario represents adventure and sport in general. --Thi (talk) 08:40, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

;Neutral

I'm also going to make it clear that I thought about this for a few days on what games were objectively the most important. Other ones that I considered but intentionally did not nominate include the following: {{VA link|Final Fantasy}}, {{VA link|Minecraft}} (failed recently), {{VA link|Pong}} (previously removed), {{VA link|Call of Duty}}, and {{VA link|Space Invaders}}. λ NegativeMP1 20:37, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

:This is Level 4. We are discussing below about room for {{VA link|Spouse}} and {{VA link|Aunt}}? Video games are only around for a brief period. Therefore, be practical about what can be achieved; you should think about the {{VA link|history of video gaming}} vs individual games. I don't think {{VA link|Tetris}} and {{VA link|Pokémon}} will last long-term on Level 4 when their original fan base moves on from Wikipedia. Aszx5000 (talk) 13:26, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

{{abot}}

{{Clear}}

{{atopg

| status = passed

| result = Added 5-0, proposed 40 days ago, no votes in 16 days. Makkool (talk) 00:13, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

}}

I don't really think this is going to be a controversial proposal, but I'm still going to state my reasoning. We list only one animated film at Level 4, which for as big of a scope {{VA link|Animation}} is, there is almost certainly room for a second example, especially one like this that basically began a type of animation. Toy Story is objectively one of the important feature animated films ever made, possibly comparable in influence to {{VA link|Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs (1937 film)}}. It pioneered a type of animation that will almost certainly never fall out of style, that being {{VA link|Computer animation}}. It is also considered one of the best films of all time, and in my opinion, we can fit another film from under the Disney banner due to how influential the company is. In my opinion, this film is over-qualified for Level 4. I'd propose a swap, but Arts is technically under-quota and I don't believe I'm in the right place to propose a swap with something outside of that section due to my lack of knowledge on the influence of other subjects.

;Support

1. As nom. λ NegativeMP1 22:36, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
2. Per nom. 49p (talk) 06:44, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
3. Per nom. Probably the most important animation- both in box office and in technical advancement-after Snow White. Aszx5000 (talk) 23:55, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
4. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 00:04, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
5. Interstellarity (talk) 00:25, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

;Oppose

;Neutral

Am convinced that this is vital, second in animated films and more vital than the video games nominated below, but I'm pretty sure the latest V4 entry is {{VA link|Star Wars}}. We might need a more general discussion. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 23:04, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

1. :Actually, our most recent vital 4 franchise/piece of media is {{VA link|Pokémon}}, which is only a year younger than Toy Story. Nevertheless, I'm not really sure what about it or {{VA link|Star Wars}} being vital would disqualify the second most important animated film ever made. λ NegativeMP1 23:10, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

;Discuss

{{abot}}

{{Clear}}

{{archive top|status=passed |result=Added, 5-0 _pbp 15:11, 8 July 2024 (UTC)}}

This was noted as a possible addition to VA4 when I proposed {{VA link|LGBT history}} at VA5 (because {{VA link|LGBT history in the United States}} was already listed but not that.. go figure), but since then I also noticed that {{VA link|BDSM}} was VA4 but not LGBT, which is much more socially significant as the general umbrella term for minority sexual orientations or gender identity. We do already list {{VA link|Homosexuality}}, {{VA link|bisexuality}} and others here but I don't think this is redundant due to its commonality and widespread usage in social discourse, and as a societally constructed grouping.

;Support

1. As nom Iostn (talk) 16:26, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
2. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 23:41, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
3. λ NegativeMP1 16:05, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
4. Interstellarity (talk) 20:44, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
5. Per nom. Aszx5000 (talk) 09:43, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

;Oppose

;Discuss

{{archive bottom}}

As the branch of Christianity with the most followers, it makes sense to include this. Interstellarity (talk) 13:45, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

;Support

1. Interstellarity (talk) 13:45, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

;Oppose

;Neutral

;Discuss

I feel like we list a bunch of US presidents at this level. I’m sure that is not surprising as the US has been a dominant world power for decades. Some presidents are obviously vital like Washington, Jefferson, Lincoln, Both Roosevelts, Eisenhower, and Reagan as their legacies seemed to have been settled at this point. We also list three consecutive recent presidents, Bush, Obama, and Trump so I don’t know if recentism is an issue here. I know scholarly rankings don’t give a complete answer as to what makes a president vital as Trump, Nixon, Bush, and Jackson are listed that had far from stellar terms as president. I would like to gather input from other editors as to what makes a president vital. Interstellarity (talk) 00:21, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

• Trump was America's The Emperor's New Clothes moment, notable for how terrible he was. Obama represented the rise of African Americans through society. Bush responded to 9/11 with two wars. starship.paint (RUN) 03:39, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
• :@Starship.paint: Can you explain the analogy of Trump as America's The Emperor's New Clothes moment? I understand the significance of Obama and Bush, but I was hoping that you could delve deeper into the meaning of this phrase. Interstellarity (talk) 13:01, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
• ::{{re|Interstellarity}} - while some American presidents have done terrible things, I believe they retained some semblance of dignity. Trump had none of that. That such a person became president (and even continues to lead a major political party) reflects on the American electorate as well. Simply put, Trump turned America into a laughingstock. He represents the decay of America. Apologies for the bluntness. starship.paint (RUN) 13:34, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
• :::@Starship.paint: No worries, I understand now. He represented a turning point in America. He is no Jimmy Carter, who wasn’t a good president, but an exceptional human being. Trump was one who defied traditional norms. Although he remains popular with many in America despite his flaws, he is one of those people who was unpopular with a majority of Americans since he was a terrible president according to historians and possibly a terrible human being. I hope I provided a good analysis on him which probably represents why he is vital. Interstellarity (talk) 14:07, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
• ::::{{re|Interstellarity}} - that's adequate reasoning. More points are the cult of personality, the overwhelming amount of untruths, and despite the lack of much achievements, the [https://www.vanityfair.com/news/ted-cruz-donald-trump-endorsement-2024 power to cause this]. starship.paint (RUN) 14:22, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

First off, why only question the vitality of U.S. presidents? Why not also question American activists in the same breadth? Or politicians from other countries? Yes, we have 19 U.S. presidents, plus 2 Native American chiefs and 7 Americans who weren't president (two, J. Edgar Hoover and John Marshall, are listed in an area other than politicians at VA5). This group of 28 leaders has had considerably more scrutiny than any part of the VA4 of comparable size; subjecting the entire people list to such scrutiny would have resulted in hundreds of discussions.

There are a few American leaders I question the vitality of; I even nominated JFK and Bush 43 for removal from the list but lost those votes. For most of the rest of them, I can and have given individual rationales. I can also give rationales for a few gentlemen (such as John Quincy Adams), who are NOT listed.

Of 28 American politicians, half served in government later than 1900, which is around when the United States became a world power. Around half of those (depending where you classify J. Edgar Hoover) served during the Cold War era between 1945 and 1991. Of the 14 before 1900, almost half were the “Founding Fathers” that fought the Revolution, created the country’s founding documents, and served in the first 28 years of the presidency. The most poorly-represented eras in American history are the post-bellum “Gilded Age” era and the colonial era, the former because it was an era of political paralysis and the latter because the United States was sparsely populated by white man and was ruled by European nations. There’s some concern about having three 21st century presidents, but that is balanced out by Bush 41, Clinton and Biden NOT being on VA4 (although Biden should get a VA4 discussion if he's re-elected).

There are several representatives of both the Democratic and Republican Parties, as well as representatives of the Federalist, Democratic-Republican and Whig Parties. The U.S. is a democracy without houses or dynasties…but don’t tell that to the Adams, Roosevelt, Kennedy and Bush families, all of whom are represented at VA4.

There is no single criteria for an American politician to be listed at VA4, nor should there be. However, here are some things:

• Being President, or an officer, in a war seems to have a strong correlation with making VA4. We have soldiers or presidents from the American Revolution (Washington), War of 1812 (Madison, Jackson), Seminole Wars (Jackson), Mexican-American War (Polk), American Civil War (Lincoln), Spanish-American War (Teddy Roosevelt), World War I (Wilson), World War II (FDR, Truman, Eisenhower), Cold War (Truman, Eisenhower, JFK, LBJ, Nixon, Reagan), Korean War (Truman), Vietnam War (LBJ, Nixon), and War on Terror (Bush 43)
• Other presidents made major contributions in the domestic sphere: Jefferson with the Louisiana Purchase, Teddy Roosevelt with the Square Deal, FDR with the New Deal, Truman with the Fair Deal, Eisenhower with 1950s prosperity, LBJ with Civil Rights and the Great Society, Obama with Obamacare...
• As noted, some presidents are on there for being exceedingly bad or harmful. Nixon is on there for bombing the heck out of Vietnam and Cambodia, and for Watergate which rendered the American public permanently cynical. Bush 43 is on for a couple of questionable wars beginning under his administration. Jackson is on there for the Bank War and Indian Removal. Many Americans classify Reagan in this category as well, though this is balanced out by many others classifying Reagan as a near-great President
• Some of the people on VA4 are there by virtue of significant firsts
• Longevity seems to have some importance, but is not the only factor: 11 of the 14 Presidents who served at least two terms are on the list (Monroe, Cleveland and Clinton are not). 5 of the 7 presidents who served one term and part of another are on the list (Coolidge and McKinley are not). JFK is the only president who didn’t serve for four years, although we do have non-Presidential politicians who served 0 years as President (though each of them had political careers lasting more than 4 years). _pbp 01:37, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
• According to Historical_rankings_of_presidents_of_the_United_States, James Monroe is the only president who has been ranked in the Top 10 since 2010 (there have been 10 rankings since 2010) to not be listed.
• Each of the presidents listed (and Ben Franklin) have at least 100 interwikis. The four most recent presidents listed have over 200
• Every VA4-level president but James Madison and James K. Polk has at least 100,000 pageviews in the last 30 days. 13 VA4 presidents, Franklin and Hamilton have at least 200,000. Franklin, JFK and the Large Orange Dude get at least half a million

_pbp 23:09, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

::{{ping|Interstellarity}} just wondering if you read my comments _pbp 19:19, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

:::@Purplebackpack89: Yes, I did read your comments. Interstellarity (talk) 20:35, 23 May 2024 (UTC)