Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football#After a split...

Anyone else notice that Soccerway's layout and format has been changed? I can't find stats about players there :( --SuperJew (talk) 06:27, 4 June 2025 (UTC)

:It’s either broken or under development or a new version has been released too soon. Whichever, it’s showing nothing, no teams, no players, no results!--Egghead06 (talk) 06:31, 4 June 2025 (UTC)

::Yup I noticed the search feature isn't working at all. I managed to get into players profiles by searching on Google the name + Soccerway and then at least I could get the birthdate which I needed for listing on current national squad. --SuperJew (talk) 07:23, 4 June 2025 (UTC)

::It now shows player's clubs for me, but not seasons and matches. Oof. Geschichte (talk) 07:24, 4 June 2025 (UTC)

::As someone who's used Soccerway... quite a lot, this is annoying - hopefully it gets fixed up soon. Why do things have to change xD /j RossEvans19 (talk) 14:08, 4 June 2025 (UTC)

:A new Soccerway X account has popped up acknowledging the issues and saying that they will be fixed shortly - hopefully it's not too long before it's back to the former levels of functionality. Ligaventura95 (talk) 16:10, 4 June 2025 (UTC)

::Does look like they are going through a website upgrade during the off season. Govvy (talk) 21:36, 5 June 2025 (UTC)

:::But it's not off season in Northern Europe, North America and Japan :p Geschichte (talk) 10:17, 6 June 2025 (UTC)

::::Oh my word the new site looks awful, and it's also got incorrect stats (including saying Kyrell Lisbie has 2 apps for Peterborough in 2024-25 season, even though he joined after the season started... GiantSnowman 11:39, 6 June 2025 (UTC)

:::::: Yep, I agree with all above. Soccerway being bad right now is getting on my nerves... just realized I basically can't work without it. Paul Vaurie (talk) 09:21, 8 June 2025 (UTC)

::I've noticed that before... It missed how many minutes the footballer has played at a specific level... ⋆｡˚꒰ঌ Clara A. Djalim ໒꒱˚｡⋆ 08:53, 14 June 2025 (UTC)

:::Good grief it looks bad. Hopefully it's just case of a summer reworking and not a permanent change. REDMAN 2019 (talk) 11:38, 16 June 2025 (UTC)

:Came here hoping for info on this. Sounds like my experience was not as bad as others so hopefully improving. I was looking at George Stanger and it still doesn't have his early seasons, cup games or internationals (including Olympics), minimal links from the numbers and none of the hover-over stuff which can be useful for quick checking. Fingers crossed it's all better soon. Crowsus (talk) 14:16, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

::I've had to use alternate sites for Branden Horton as Soccerway does not work for him at all.

::I wonder if it's worth contacting them to see what they're playing at?! GiantSnowman 17:21, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

:::{{tq|I wonder if it's worth contacting them to see what they're playing at?!}} I was about to suggest that. If they have an idea how much Wikipedia relies on the website and how much traffic to their website results from our links, they might listen. Robby.is.on (talk) 17:50, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

::::{{tq|Soccerway is owned by Sportsight s.r.o., a company based in Prague, Czech Republic. It was previously owned by Perform Group, but the ownership changed as of June 2025. Soccerway is a large football database covering over 1000 leagues and cups.}} Govvy (talk) 18:05, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

:::::Ah that explains it - new ownership trying to show they're doing something. ugh --SuperJew (talk) 19:47, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

::::{{tq|Perform Group, now known as DAZN Group, is a global sports media and technology company. It was originally formed in 2007 through the merger of Premium TV Limited and Inform Group. The company is known for its sports streaming service, DAZN, and its sports data and technology division, Stats Perform.}} Govvy (talk) 18:06, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

::::: I emailed them and they said that they're trying to fix the stuff. We'll see how long it takes. Paul Vaurie (talk) 18:51, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

I got a response this morning;

{{quote|style=;color:teal|text=

We appreciate your concerns, and thank you for reaching out.

Rest assured, we are working hard to restore all of the information that was available previously, and our goal is to make a better platform than ever before on Soccerway.

We value your patience as we strive to bring you an enhanced platform, and would love to hear more specific feedback if you have any.

Thanks for being part of the Soccerway community.

Kind Regards,

The Soccerway Team

}}

Govvy (talk) 12:40, 24 June 2025 (UTC)

:The feedback you can give them - some player profiles no longer work; those that do all seem to have incomplete or incorrect stats. GiantSnowman 19:59, 24 June 2025 (UTC)

Plenty have posted over the past few weeks about issues with the 'new' Soccerway - having checked on a few players' profiles today, it seems no better, with stats either having disappeared or being simply incorrect.

So, we need to plan for replacing it - what trusty databases are good for e.g. English National League / European league stats? GiantSnowman 19:11, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

:I've always found [https://fbref.com/en/comps/ FBref] to be reliable. English stats go as far down as the National League, good coverage of the Big Five European leagues & the US, and covers a wide range of other top division leagues. J Mo 101 (talk) 20:10, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

::Looks to be OK, but difficult to navigate IMHO... GiantSnowman 14:10, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

:I've never had much of an issue with [https://www.fotmob.com/ FotMob]. Unsure of opinions on them (I wasn't able to find anything in the WP archives), but anything within recent years seems to be solid.   haj • talk   22:50, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

::Yes, looks fine to me? GiantSnowman 14:11, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

Site seems to be working still, but i agree the new outline is a darn mess. Team lineups with players completely out of position, oddly named (i.e. Chelsea's Pedro Neto is "Lomba"), ditto for managers (Atlético Madrid boss is now Diego Pablo)! Also, apparently you now can't click on them in a match sheet, and individual entries show only two seasons of stats, at best.

I still think it can be kept, but will pay attention to this discussion to see what the final decision will be. --RevampedEditor (talk) 14:04, 20 June 2025 (UTC)

: I think for at the least the next couple of weeks, we need to prioritize sources other than Soccerway. I don't know if Soccerway can be considered unreliable right now, but it sure doesn't paint the whole picture of whatever it tries to represent due to omitting information. I found FBref to be quite accurate but unnecessarily hard to navigate comfortably. I didn't like FotMob much as I found it not sufficiently detailed. I like Transfermarkt although I know we don't consider it to be reliable. Paul Vaurie (talk) 18:51, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

::Throwing worldfootball.net into the mix as well since I haven't seen it getting any love. JTtheOG (talk) 07:21, 24 June 2025 (UTC)

:::I wouldn't plan such an early death for soccerway, hasn't been that long since they started to change things around on it. At least wait till the end of July to see how it turns out. Govvy (talk) 07:52, 24 June 2025 (UTC)

::::Surely with the traffic (i.e advertising revenue) they would have been getting, partly from editors here and links from here, the high level of functionality the site had and the volume stats they had already compiled, they will go to the effort of fixing it. Crowsus (talk) 21:59, 24 June 2025 (UTC)

:::WF is good for many European countries, and goes many decades back, but isn't useful for e.g. South Africa. Soccerway's showing of minutes and unused subs were also very useful.. Geschichte (talk) 19:51, 27 June 2025 (UTC)

I've been noticing something odd in certain references provided on articles of European footballers. When it comes to providing ones from UEFA, why are those sometimes formatted as:

website=UEFA|publisher=Union of European Football Associations

Instead of:

publisher=UEFA

Is there a manual of style here on how to format it correctly?

⋆｡˚꒰ঌ Clara A. Djalim ໒꒱˚｡⋆ 14:19, 20 June 2025 (UTC)

:They have possibly been filled in automatically by the "Add citation" widget which will go get the metadata from the website. Spike 'em (talk) 15:52, 20 June 2025 (UTC)

::Not sure if that's really a question for this WikiProject, but :Template:Cite web states "Having both 'publisher' and 'website' is redundant in many cases." As the template itself includes both parameters in all of the offered "blank versions" of the template at that link, it's no wonder that users have sometimes tried to fill them in. C679 15:54, 20 June 2025 (UTC)

:::The documentation in Template:Cite web says: "The publisher is the company, organization or other legal entity that publishes the work being cited." I'd say that would mean we use publisher=UEFA as that is the commonly used name for the organisation publishing the work being cited. Hack (talk) 16:21, 20 June 2025 (UTC)

::::I agree, keep it succinct. Geschichte (talk) 19:52, 27 June 2025 (UTC)

Is this notable enough for its own page?? Govvy (talk) 19:06, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

:For me, no. Kante4 (talk) 19:14, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

:4th tier amateur league in Singapore? Highly doubt it. --SuperJew (talk) 19:47, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

::Doesn't like it, and similarly for all the other season articles for that competition. The teams themselves aren't even notable (and that's generally a much lower bar than the season article notability). Joseph2302 (talk) 19:43, 24 June 2025 (UTC)

Can we stop using the "CF" part in Inter Miami CF when referencing the club in season articles (e.g. 2025 FIFA Club World Cup) ? It's like using Real Madrid CF in full when we usually just write "Real Madrid". The "CF" part isn't even part of the official name, it's just one of the way the club styles its own name, but no one calls it that. The common name is simply "Inter Miami". Paul Vaurie (talk) 07:17, 24 June 2025 (UTC)

:This has been discussed a number of times, it is standard for American club names to not be shortened (subsequent mentions in prose can be, though). See Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football/Archive 129#American teams and FC, SC, AFC, etc., Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football/Archive 164#Frank Lampard, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football/United States and Canada task force/Archive 1#Use of FC/SC suffix for club names#Use of FC/SC suffix for club names. S.A. Julio (talk) 17:17, 24 June 2025 (UTC)

:: Yet in articles like Lionel Messi, we see "Inter Miami"... Paul Vaurie (talk) 18:22, 25 June 2025 (UTC)

::: In fact, I think we need to revisit this... we should just use what the club is most commonly referred to as. Nobody and I mean nobody says "Inter Miami CF"... Examples like LAFC or NYCFC are different. Paul Vaurie (talk) 18:25, 25 June 2025 (UTC)

::::"Nobody and I mean nobody" I disagree. I see it written as Inter Miami CF quite often here in North America. RedPatch (talk) 20:15, 25 June 2025 (UTC)

:::::Agree with RP - whenever I have been to North America (which has been a few times in recent years), it's been 'full' name. GiantSnowman 20:20, 25 June 2025 (UTC)

:::::: Just do a quick search -- 6x more results for Inter Miami + virtually all news articles call it Inter Miami. Only "official" sources or squad lists are calling it Inter Miami CF. And certainly no one in common language. Paul Vaurie (talk) 20:24, 25 June 2025 (UTC)

::::::: Look, I get it, the CF looks and sounds weird. I prefer, just like you, to omit it, but there's no denying it, it does get used fairly regularly with it by many sources (and yes also without, I never denied that), but given that it does get used fairly regularly, it makes the most sense to use it to keep it in line with naming conventions for North American teams for consistencies sake. Otherwise, we would need to come up with separate policies for each of the hundreds of clubs in the US and Canada and that just doesn't make sense. WP:ILIKEIT and WP:IDONTLIKEIT are not reasons. In the space of both regularly being used, lining up with existing policy that matches every other situation is the most reasonable. RedPatch (talk) 21:30, 25 June 2025 (UTC)

:::::::: Ok, fair reasoning, but I will point out that we don't always use the full name for North American clubs (in practice). Examples include Minnesota United FC cutting the FC in player articles or Houston Dynamo FC, or even Chicago Fire FC and Atlanta United FC. Essentially, we don't do this in practice, and the clubs aren't typically called by their "FC" portion. In Europe, there is no one-size fits all. Why should there be one in the United States? Paul Vaurie (talk) 21:40, 25 June 2025 (UTC)

Hey, what we think about [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=2012%E2%80%9313_Brunei_Super_League&oldid=1224894125 this?]. I removed it, {{User|Kapisan2016}} put hard work in doing that and came to my user talk, so i just wanted to make sure that we do not list Fixtures/Results in a season article of a league? I did the same for [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=2023%E2%80%9324_Mongolian_Premier_League&oldid=1295633040 Mongolia]. Kante4 (talk) 08:33, 24 June 2025 (UTC)

:I must state the main reason for doing it; my country's FA and media are very terrible in record-keeping and having match records on Wikipedia means there is a reference on the internet for fixtures and goalscoring records. If such goal is against the website's fundamental function, I am prepared to concede, but that was the reason for why I had ventured to do it. 08:39, 24 June 2025 (UTC) かぴさん Kapisan (talk) 08:39, 24 June 2025 (UTC)

::Sounds like the country's media or FA may need a web hosting service, although Wikipedia is not a web hosting service. C679 09:05, 24 June 2025 (UTC)

::We arent here to be someone elses media host. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 17:55, 24 June 2025 (UTC)

I noticed that Simone Zaza has just turned turned 34. He hasn't kicked a ball since 18 March 2022 in a final season in which he played only 115 minutes total. With a 4th season of inactivity approaching, he's clearly retired. The problem is, he seems to have never officially declared his retirement. I'm hesitant to add it without a source even though it's clearly true. How long should we wait before accepting the inevitable and declaring him a former footballer? Valenciano (talk) 21:36, 25 June 2025 (UTC)

:I think you can safely change "is an Italian professional footballer" to "is an Italian former professional footballer", as it seems clear that he isn't one any more. You don't have to specifically use the word "retired". I would say that the majority of players, especially those outside the top flight, don't actively announce their retirement, so we just have to use common sense as to when they are clearly not going to play professionally again and four years seems reasonable. If in some unusual turn of events Zaza suddenly dusts himself off and signs for another club, just change it back -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 07:30, 26 June 2025 (UTC)

::Agreed - if a player has been unsigned for 1/2+ years, then feel free to consider them retired - especially if they are of a certain age... GiantSnowman 20:37, 26 June 2025 (UTC)

::: Yep, I agree. I think 2 years is a good cut off for players who are 30+. If they are under 30, I would advise more caution as there are players who just simply go 2 years as free agents. It happens. Paul Vaurie (talk) 20:22, 27 June 2025 (UTC)

Could someone from this WikiProject take a look at :Amundsen Girls Soccer and assess it? My guess is that most high school girl's soccer teams would probably not be considered notable enough for a stand-alone article about them to exist, but this team does seem to have a bit of history to it and there might be enough reliable source coverage (outside typical game results stuff) for it to be OK to keep in the mainspace. It was, for reference, created a just a few weeks ago and has been edited quite a bit since then. -- Marchjuly (talk) 22:52, 25 June 2025 (UTC)

:Adding :Lane Tech Girls Soccer to this discussion as well since it's another recently created stand-alone article about a high school girls' scoccer team that probably needs a non-involved notability assessment. -- Marchjuly (talk) 20:50, 27 June 2025 (UTC)

::Agree, a bunch of match reports in local paper does not make a notable topic. Noting that article creator {{ping|Milicz}} is a SPA focussing on soccer in Illinois. GiantSnowman 20:55, 27 June 2025 (UTC)

:::@GiantSnowman I find it disappointing to see my work dismissed as "a bunch of match reports in a local paper," especially when the Chicago Tribune, a major national newspaper, featured in-depth, multi-page coverage of girls' soccer during the 1990s. The Amundsen Girls Soccer article draws directly from those pieces, which covered not just individual games but the broader story of the CPL’s creation of a girls' soccer league. Amundsen was a key early participant in that league, and its inclusion is part of the larger narrative of expanding athletic opportunities for girls in public schools—a historically significant development, not trivia.

:::@Marchjuly asked for a neutral assessment, which I fully support. False aspersions like yours @GiantSnowman are discouraging. They don’t just undermine civil collaboration—they’re the reason many long-time editors walk away. Let’s focus on evaluating content on its merits, not assumptions about contributors. Accusing me of being a single-purpose account is just false. My recent focus on Illinois high school girls’ soccer reflects an effort to document a historically underrepresented subject—one that is supported by reliable, non-trivial coverage in major outlets like the Chicago Tribune. There’s no promotional intent here. If researching and writing about neglected topics with independent sources is labeled “promotional,” then we’re discouraging the very kind of editorial work Wikipedia needs to stay comprehensive and equitable. Milicz (talk) 23:21, 27 June 2025 (UTC)

::::Your editing might be in good faith but it is ultimately disruptive, see e.g. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Illinois ODP and this which are a time drain on editors with better things to do. GiantSnowman 07:54, 28 June 2025 (UTC)

:::::Just noticed article creator Milicz has been blocked for sockpuppetry RedPatch (talk) 13:54, 28 June 2025 (UTC)

::::::I have sent both articles to AfD since high school teams are generally not notable. — Jkudlick ⚓ (talk) 15:20, 28 June 2025 (UTC)

:::::::There's also CPL Girls Soccer Championship Final which was recently created by the same RedPatch (talk) 18:29, 28 June 2025 (UTC)

I was wondering what other editors thought about Football at the 1896 Summer Olympics, which is not recognised by the International Olympic Committee ([https://www.olympics.com/en/sports/football/ source]). There is a strong consensus from historians that in fact no tournament was played in 1896 (even demonstration/unofficial), for example see [https://isoh.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/319.pdf this document] produced by Bill Mallon and Volker Kluge for the International Society of Olympic Historians. Further reliable sources support this, such as the Olympic Studies Centere [https://stillmed.olympic.org/media/Document%20Library/OlympicOrg/Factsheets-Reference-Documents/Games/OG/History-of-sports/Reference-document-Football-History-at-the-OG.pdf here] and IFFHS [https://iffhs.com/posts/209 here]. However the article treats the rumoured tournament as a fact. The article heavily relies on an RSSSF page ([https://www.rsssf.org/tableso/ol1896f.html here]) and the questionably-reliable Topend Sports ([https://www.topendsports.com/events/demonstration/football.htm here]). However, both pages are based off the work of a single person, Nitzan Zilburg, and I can find little information about him to prove his reliability. Otherwise the article relies on an interview with an elderly Greek footballer 75 years later and a questionable FIFA newsletter from 1976, which was not even founded by 1896 (and is contradicted by most other FIFA sources, for example [https://www.fifa.com/en/articles/paris-olympics-1900-1924-2024-olympic-football-tournaments here], [https://www.fifamuseum.com/en/explore/fifamuseumplus/blog/Olympic-history-at-t here] and [https://www.fifa.com/en/tournaments/olympicgames/paris2024/mens/articles/denmark-1908-olympics-records here]).

I think the article should either be entirely reworked or redirected to the main Olympic page. Clearly the tournament should not be presented as a indisputable fact, as currently the lead sentence tries to emphasize. Thoughts? S.A. Julio (talk) 18:54, 26 June 2025 (UTC)

:There is a lot of miss information, Greece in fact wanted to have football at the Olympics, so they organised an exhibition match before the the Olympics, however after the defeat they were embarrassed and the Crown Prince who was in attendance ordered all coverage to be destroyed and decided against it at the time. There is very little evidence how it all went down there are some first hand accounts, but all the sources are not just a needle in a haystack, far worse than that! Govvy (talk) 20:23, 26 June 2025 (UTC)

:Reworking it is probably ideal, and it would be very interesting. Like a planned film that was never made, we write about the plans and what did happen and what didn't and why (rather than act like it got made) - and a parallel to that is appropriate here. Kingsif (talk) 09:15, 27 June 2025 (UTC)

::I'm a colleague of Bill Mallon from the days of Olympedia.org we should probably combine our knowledge at this point Topcardi (talk) 17:46, 27 June 2025 (UTC)

:::Hi Topcardi, I know you've edited around the 1900 and 1904 Olympic football games before, do you have other sources to bring to the table? Perhaps it's better ({{ping|S.A._Julio|Govvy}}) to move this to the article talk and have a plan for improvement? Kingsif (talk) 20:39, 27 June 2025 (UTC)

::::{{reply|Kingsif}} I can't help you anymore than what I said above, my knowledge is generational knowledge. Govvy (talk) 08:30, 28 June 2025 (UTC)

On multiple season articles such as 2025–26 Norwich City F.C. season e.g

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2025%E2%80%9326_Norwich_City_F.C._season], the Northern Irish flag is being used for player's location birthplace. This is inconsistent with Flag of Northern Ireland- NI has no official flag. Whilst the Ulster Banner is the flag used by the NI football team, it is wrong to use for the location/country of NI in "place of birth" columns on articles or similar. Courtesy ping to {{U|Bbt400}} as I have recently reverted them- though they aren't the only user or article where the NI flag is used to depict the country on football articles. Joseph2302 (talk) 22:17, 26 June 2025 (UTC)

:Well, at football games on TV, I've seen a green flag with the Northern Ireland federation crest in the middle before. But generally they tend to Ulster flag. I always find it weird on those squad tables, place of birth, signed from, date signed, fee and contract end have no relevance to the season. Why do people keep adding those columns which also kinda breach WP:OR. :/ Govvy (talk) 09:30, 27 June 2025 (UTC)

::I concur, I can't see how any of those columns are relevant. None of the club/season articles that have reached FA status have them -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 10:06, 27 June 2025 (UTC)

:::{{ping|Joseph2302}} It's a bit of a complicated matter but the Ulster Banner is used to depict NI in sporting or general events and is the commonly used one. St Patrick's Saltire is more used for Royal occasions due to it's links with the Union Jack but is rarely if ever used to mark nationality. It's goes further into the usual loyalists vs unionists which is why there isn't strictly a official flag. The Ulster Banner was used under the previous government but when it got abolished they basically haven't got round to an new official one. Generally though it's the one to use on NI articles. REDMAN 2019 (talk) 16:16, 28 June 2025 (UTC)

Hello. Do we list the UEFA Champions League (or runner-up for it) as an honour in the articles of players who were transferred or loaned out during the season and did make an appearance in the group stage/league phase? What's the procedure for players such as Marco Asensio, Randal Kolo Muani, João Cancelo, or Edinson Cavani? Paul Vaurie (talk) 16:11, 27 June 2025 (UTC)

:Honestly it might just be better already to remove team honours from players articles and avoid all these pointless discussions. --SuperJew (talk) 16:17, 27 June 2025 (UTC)

:::What's pointless about it? Paul Vaurie (talk) 20:21, 27 June 2025 (UTC)

::What do reliable sources say about the players' honours? GiantSnowman 18:33, 27 June 2025 (UTC)

::: Let me take a look. In the meantime, how did we previously address this issue? Paul Vaurie (talk) 20:21, 27 June 2025 (UTC)

:Isn't it that only the registered players for the final stage are automatically considered by UEFA to have the honour, but a club can put in a request for other players to be recognised? So, it depends if the club did that or not? Kingsif (talk) 13:32, 28 June 2025 (UTC)