Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ontario

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Some articles relating to the Ontario government e.g. Ontario Civilian Police Commission have French langauge names, but others do not e.g. Ontario Arts Council.

In fact Ontario Arts Council literally puts their French langauge name in their logo.

I think it would just make more sense to standardise this and put the French language name whereever it is an official name.

After a brief discussion with {{ping|Magnolia677}}, I think this should be a bigger discussion. Landpin (talk) 11:35, 20 May 2025 (UTC)

:Yes, French language names should be included in our articles, similarly to how it was done for Ontario Civilian Police Commission. Regards, PKT(alk) 12:23, 20 May 2025 (UTC)

::{{ping|PKT}} Why? This is English Wikipedia. Magnolia677 (talk) 15:25, 20 May 2025 (UTC)

:::Because this province supports both English and French. There are several communities, particularly near the border with Quebec, that have significant French-speaking populations. There are French-speaking populations in most cities in Ontario as well. As {{ping|Landpin}} mentioned, the logo of the OAC includes the French name, and they're not the only ones. As an example, the logo of the Ontario Secondary School Teachers' Federation shows their acronym in both languages. PKT(alk) 16:06, 20 May 2025 (UTC)

::: Added - WP:CANFRENCH can provide some guidance on this matter as well.......... PKT(alk) 16:13, 20 May 2025 (UTC)

::::Why should a French translation be added to the lead of articles about Crown corporations owned by the Ontario government? MOS:FIRST advises against overloading the first sentence, while MOS:FOREIGNEQUIV states: "If the subject of the article is closely associated with a non-English language, a single equivalent name in another language may be included in the lead sentence". Most of these articles don't even mention "French", and have nothing to do with the French language. Just because Ontario is bilingual or trilingual or whatever...does not dictate how English Wikipedia should describe the subject. Again, English Wikipedia. --Magnolia677 (talk) 16:27, 20 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::I don't think this is so revolutionary. Lots of pages relating to the government of Ontario have French langauge names e.g. Accelerating Access to Justice Act, 2021 or Ontario Arts Council.

:::::I just think there should be some uniformity. Landpin (talk) 16:36, 20 May 2025 (UTC)

::::::These two examples are not particularly related to the French langauge.

::::::The principle that only pages need to be specifically related to the French language to have a French language name in the lede seems like it just does not apply in this context. Landpin (talk) 16:38, 20 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::::Yes they should. At minimum. Simonm223 (talk) 16:50, 20 May 2025 (UTC)

Let me ask a seemingly simple question. Can someone point to a Wikipedia -policy- where French official names -should/must- be mentioned? It seems there isn't consistency because there is no policy. It seems to come down to what people -assume- is correct. If there is a policy to always add the French name of an institution, then I would support adding it. But if there isn't, then no, there is no need to add the French name. It's friendly to do so, but unnecessary, so let's NOT mandate it. Alaney2k (talk) 19:29, 20 May 2025 (UTC)

:Do it for provincial government names. Ditto any large institutions that have bilingual websites (not necessarily on the same page - just a French site and an English site). Use your judgment for local sites (yes for Ottawa, probably not for some little village near Minnesota). —A. B. ^{(talk • contribs • global count)} 19:53, 20 May 2025 (UTC)

::What about Tim Hortons? They have a bilingual website. The City of Toronto website translates into Cantonese too. Magnolia677 (talk) 20:13, 20 May 2025 (UTC)

:::The thing about Tim Hortons is that its name has the format of the name of a person, so it is still "Tim Hortons" in the French language, which can be seen at fr:Tim Hortons.

:::At the municipal level, the French Language Services Act (Ontario) puts certain legal obligations on certain municipalities to have services available in French, so I would defer to that. If there are similar obligations for services to be available in Cantonese in Toronto, then I think I would put Cantonese too, but I don't think there are.

:::https://www.toronto.ca/city-government/council/my-local-government-its-for-me/english-and-additional-languages/

:::If there are that many languages, then I would probably put them all into a footnote.

:::These seem more like an optional choice than anything that would be legally required of the municipality. Landpin (talk) 20:35, 20 May 2025 (UTC)

::::This is precisely what I meant by "at least." Canada is a multi-lingual country and our naming information absolutely should reflect that. Simonm223 (talk) 23:30, 20 May 2025 (UTC)

:::A previous version of this post referred to Canadian Tire. https://www.canadiantire.ca/fr.html

:::Canadian Tire choose to refer to themselves as "Canadian Tire" in French, so it would be Canadian Tire in French. Landpin (talk) 20:45, 20 May 2025 (UTC)

::::What about Alberta crown corporations? Alberta is not officially bilingual. And Nunavut has 500 official languages. User:Alaney2k asked if there is some policy governing this and I agree. Why should Wikipedia follow the language policies of any government? Magnolia677 (talk) 20:58, 20 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::Alberta crown corporations don't have official french names, as far as I can see. None of the pages on Alberta government agencies and departments use the French language name, so there's no inconsistency to correct.

:::::Nunavut laws are published in French and English. Nunavut government organisation information is published in French and English. Nunavut has four official languages, so if I can find names in all four languages, I will put them in a footnote, but if I can only find it in French, I will put it in the lede. Landpin (talk) 23:11, 20 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::Manitoba is in a similar situation to Ontario and publishes legislation and maintains government websites in French.j

:::::Alberta, Saskatchewan, British Columbia, Prince Edward Island, Nova Scotia, Newfoundland and Labrador largely do not publish legislation in French and don't maintain websites in French.

:::::Nova Scotia has exceptions such as https://nslegislature.ca/sites/default/files/legc/statutes/csap%20FR.pdf

:::::Quebec's only official language is French, so I think the names in the article should have the French language names in the lede.

:::::New Brunswick, Yukon have English and French as the only official languages, so I think the names in the article should have the French language names in the lede.

:::::Nunavut and the Northwest Territories have French as an official langauge. They also have other languages. If I can find names for all of the official languages, I will put all of them in a footnote. Landpin (talk) 23:25, 20 May 2025 (UTC)

: I meant Wikipedia policy in case anyone misunderstood. Government policy is government policy. And if there is no Wikipedia policy mandating it, then we shouldn't make a policy just for Ontario. (Or any state/province/city etc.) Alaney2k (talk) 21:44, 20 May 2025 (UTC)

::That is completely fair.

::I don't think there should be a policy.

::I added it for the Ontario Arts Council and a few other pages, but it was reverted.

::My issue is that my edits were reverted on the basis that there was a policy against adding these names, but it doesn't seem like there actually was a policy.

::And I only added it in the first place because some of them already did such as Ontario Secondary School Teachers' Federation.

::I don't actually care either way. My only issue was inconsistency. Landpin (talk) 21:52, 20 May 2025 (UTC)

:::I would be equally happy if someone removed all of them, made them footnotes or added them all.

:::I don't think it should be an official policy of any sort, I just don't want my edits to be reverted. Landpin (talk) 21:56, 20 May 2025 (UTC)

::Just to be clear.

::I don't think any other editor should be required to follow the convention that I am trying to use.

::I just don't think I should be prevented from using it.

::Ontario Civilian Police Commission is not particularly related to the French language but it has a translation. Ontario Arts Council is not particularly related to the French language and it has no translation.

::I am not trying to get any other editor to obey this thought process and to make these edits too, I just don't want MY edits to be reverted. I am happy to make these edits alone. As far as I can see there is no justification for the mixed situation today. Landpin (talk) 22:16, 20 May 2025 (UTC)

:No, we already have an issue with superfluous foreign names being included on Wikipedia. We're not a dictionary. Traumnovelle (talk) 23:24, 20 May 2025 (UTC)

::Is there a good reason for Ontario Civilian Police Commission to have a french language name, but for Ontario Arts Council to not have a french language name? Landpin (talk) 23:45, 20 May 2025 (UTC)

:::A good reason? No. The reason why? Because someone added it and wasn't challenged when doing so. Traumnovelle (talk) 01:04, 21 May 2025 (UTC)

:If there is an official name, it should be included somewhere; if there's not, don't add an original translation. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:26, 21 May 2025 (UTC)

::I agree with Nikkimaria. Specifically, government agencies in the area will have an official name in both languages, and we should therefore add both languages. In terms of presentation, this might be in the first sentence, or it might be in an infobox, but it should be somewhere on the page. For subjects that don't have an official non-English name, then don't add a translation. For example:

::* {{tick}} Good: Paris Charles de Gaulle Airport (Aéroport de Paris-Charles-de-Gaulle) is an airport in France. – add the French name, because French is an official, correct, non-made-up-by-editors name for the subject.

::* {{cross}} Bad: London Heathrow Airport (Aéroport de Londres Heathrow) is an airport in England. – don't add the French translation, because it's not an official or correct name for the subject, and it was just made up by me (well, by DeepL Translator).

::WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:00, 21 May 2025 (UTC)

::Agree with above. If the organization (agency, department, etc) has a co-official French name, include it; if it doesn't, don't invent a translation. — Kawnhr (talk) 21:10, 21 May 2025 (UTC)

:::Most infoboxes specifically say to NOT add an official name (unless it is significantly different). Also, while Ontario government agencies all have French websites, they don't have two official names in the title. Look at the [https://www.oeb.ca/ Ontario Energy Board]. It's in English! Should editors slavishly go looking for some translated name? This is English Wikipedia; we follow our own rules...and two of those rules--MOS:FIRST and MOS:FOREIGNEQUIV--suggest we should not do this. What magic power does the bilingual status of this province have over Wikipedia? Magnolia677 (talk) 10:53, 22 May 2025 (UTC)

::::Maybe other editors don't have to, but I think individual people should be able to add the names if they choose to. Landpin (talk) 11:38, 22 May 2025 (UTC)

::::We routinely include the French names for federal governmental organizations (Global Affairs Canada) and roles (Prime Minister of Canada). Likewise, our pages for United Nations, European Union, NATO, NAFTA include all their official names in other languages, even though each of them have English as one of their official/working languages. It seems common practice, to me, that we include all official names, not just the English one because "this is the English Wikipedia". If the Ontario government gives all its departments French names as well, then it seems worth noting. Particularly since that is not a given for Canadian provinces, making Ontario stand out. — Kawnhr (talk) 20:27, 22 May 2025 (UTC)

:I note that Organisation européenne pour la recherche nucléaire is not even a redirect to CERN. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul (talk) 12:40, 21 May 2025 (UTC)

The Ontario government is proposing the Members of the Executive Council Recognition Act that will give all Ontario cabinet ministers (including former cabinet ministers who are still alive) the title "Honourable" for life and the post-nomial initials ECO for Executive Council of Ontario.[https://globalnews.ca/news/11187203/ontario-cabinet-ministers-premiers-to-be-called-honourable-for-life/] Once passed, this means we will need to add the ECO initials to all current ministers and Honourable and ECO to all living former cabinet ministers and will involve the editing of possibly hundreds of articles. Just something to keep an eye on. Wellington Bay (talk) 12:50, 21 May 2025 (UTC)

:Thanks for the head's up.

:Also keep an eye on this lengthy, meandering RFC regarding post-nominals.

:*Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Biography#RfC Regarding MOS:POSTNOM

:--A. B. ^{(talk • contribs • global count)} 14:37, 21 May 2025 (UTC)