Talk:Besor Stream#Discussion

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Is this watercourse a stream or a wadi? I note that a change in the opening paragraph was made anonymously yesterday. Both terms are referred to in the alternative names in use. BobKilcoyne (talk) 04:30, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

:@BobKilcoyne realistically it seems to be an Israeli stream, Besor Stream, flowing into a Palestinian river valley, Wadi Gaza? I don't know why this describes them as one thing? If this is about both, there might be a name for the whole system that the page should have? BottleOfSoup (talk) 22:49, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

Is Besor Stream really the same as Wadi Gaza? Or is Besor Steam a tributary that runs into Wadi Gaza valley / wetlands? BottleOfSoup (talk) 22:46, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

The geography section is a bit of a mess. It needs to be put on order to follow along the course of the river, down stream probably works best. But I'm not sure what order that would be without a better map? BottleOfSoup (talk) 05:43, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

The common name is the Besor, as evidenced by the sources. Similar to Jerusalem.

The river is in the Gaza Strip and Israel and divides the Strip in half. It is one river and does not have a tributary that spills out at the Israel-Gaza border. The Wadi Gaza reserve is not relevant to the lede and is mentioned in the body, especially because it has been severly damaged in the Gaza war. Closetside (talk) 18:55, 6 March 2025 (UTC)

:Upon further thought, we don't need the fact that it divides the Gaza Strip in half in the lede. This is evident from the map and from the Geography section. Closetside (talk) 19:03, 6 March 2025 (UTC)

::While boldness is part of Wikipedia, given the topic area I think that consensus should have been established before moving the page. Richard Nevell (talk) 19:06, 6 March 2025 (UTC)

:::The new title was moved without consensus {{url|https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wadi_Gaza_and_Besor_Stream&diff=prev&oldid=1217251590}} Closetside (talk) 19:11, 6 March 2025 (UTC)

::::Heck, by a sockpuppet {{u|BottleOfSoup}}. Closetside (talk) 19:13, 6 March 2025 (UTC)

{{u|M.Bitton}} please give the quote saying the Nahal Besor's source is in the West Bank. Also please ensure you are not referring to the Nahal Gerar or the Nahal Beersheba. From the map in Nahal Gerar it seems to be inaccurate. Closetside (talk) 19:50, 6 March 2025 (UTC)

:That doesn't explain why you removed the sourced content. Was it to make it fit the title that you're after? M.Bitton (talk) 19:33, 6 March 2025 (UTC)

::Yep. Alright, I will include the Arabic name in the title as infobox as well. Closetside (talk) 19:36, 6 March 2025 (UTC)

:::That doesn't come close to explaining the sourced content removal. M.Bitton (talk) 19:42, 6 March 2025 (UTC)

::::The only thing I didn't restore was the nature reserve's rehabilitation in 2022 which is not pertinent, considering the Gaza war. Closetside (talk) 19:44, 6 March 2025 (UTC)

:::::It is in the body Closetside (talk) 19:44, 6 March 2025 (UTC)

::I restored the source content. I've got other things to do and I will rewrite if and after this RM succeeds. Closetside (talk) 19:57, 6 March 2025 (UTC)

@M.Bitton The article title, which was imposed by a neutral closer, implies one wadi, not a river system. Therefore, the introduction should say the Besor Stream, or Wadi Gaza, is a wadi in Israel and the Gaza Strip... Second, the coverage of the Wadi Gaza Nature Reserve is undue. It was never a de facto nature reserve and is not one today due to the war. Should the Eshkol National Park, a de jure and de facto nature reserve and the wadi's headwaters, get even more coverage? Third, we need not say it divides the Gaza Strip, any user can see from looking at the map or reading the Geography section's final line (it flows to the Israel-Gaza border and then to the Mediterranean Sea, of course it bisects the Gaza Strip) Closetside (talk) 01:11, 28 April 2025 (UTC)

:I just rephrased the history section, making it clear the evacuation orders applied to all Palestinians living north of the Wadi Gaza. So a reader could also find it through there. I don't think we need it in the lede - it belongs in the Geography section if you don't think it is implied, which I think it is. Closetside (talk) 01:16, 28 April 2025 (UTC)

:@M.Bitton assuming the problem was "removing source content", I resolved point 1 without doing so. There is no source that the Besor Stream is a tributary of the Wadi Gaza, in fact sources say they are one stream. The lede reflects the title - that's a long standing rule per WP:LEDE and specifically WP:FIRSTSENTENCE. Closetside (talk) 01:35, 28 April 2025 (UTC)

::I'm too tired to give a long answer, but the short of it is that you need to refrain from trying to impose the POV that you've been after for months. 1) The RM closer didn't say anything about content and 2) I will remind you that you removed the sourced content that mentions the fact that the Besor stream originates in the Palestinian territory. M.Bitton (talk) 01:48, 28 April 2025 (UTC)

:::1) It's clearly against policy for the WP:FIRSTSENTENCE to go against the tile.

:::2) You are talking about the Nahal Hevron tributary, which is a tributary of Nahal Beersheva, which is a tributary of Nahal Gerar, which is a tributary of the Besor Stream. Nahal Hevron does originate in the West Bank, but the Nahal Besor originates near Midreshet Ben Gurion; in Israel, not the West Bank. And show me how my edits contradict the notion that it originates in the West Bank?

:::Let's get a 3O. Closetside (talk) 02:05, 28 April 2025 (UTC)

::::{{tq|You are talking about..|q=yes}} you don't tell me what I'm talking about.

::::It's not about the title, it's about you removing content that you clearly disagree with. You even removed the cn tags that you could have easily addressed had you not removed the scholarly source that I added.

::::No need for a 3O (there is already another editor involved who can weigh in) or any discussion that involves OR and unsourced content. M.Bitton (talk) 02:07, 28 April 2025 (UTC)

:::::So is the source near Midreshet Ben Gurion in the West Bank? It is not; the wadi's source is in pre-1967 Israel.

:::::What is the scholarly source that I removed?

:::::Please explain further.

:::::Lastly there is no other editor on this thread in particular. I guess we could ask @Richard Nevell but having a fresh pair of eyes can only help. Closetside (talk) 02:13, 28 April 2025 (UTC)

{{od|4}} Here's a quote from the scholarly source that you obliterated: "the Hebron /Besor Stream that originates in the Palestinian Authority territory (West Bank), flows westward, crossing into Israel, and ultimately crosses again into the Palestinian Authority territory in Gaza Strip on the Mediterranean coast."{{cite book|author=Alon Tal, Alfred Abed Rabbo|title=Water Wisdom Preparing the Groundwork for Cooperative and Sustainable Water Management in the Middle East|year=2010|publisher=Rutgers University Press |isbn=978-0-8135-4770-1|page=142}} M.Bitton (talk) 02:13, 28 April 2025 (UTC)

:The source even says Hebron/Besor Stream, making it clear it is referring to the West Bank portion of the Nahal Hevron. Per the Ariel Encyclopedia, it is an indirect tributary of the Besor Stream, not part of the Besor Stream, which originates near Midreshet Ben Gurion. Closetside (talk) 02:19, 28 April 2025 (UTC)

::I'm not interested in your WP:OR (the source says "Besor Stream" and that's all I care about). Here's another source for good measure:

::{{talkquote|the Besor, the largest watershed in the region, flows through three political entities from Hebron to Beersheva and then into the Gaza Strip and eventually to the Mediterranean. [http://husseini1.com/resources/file/publications/1273744294012/Water%20Legislation,%20Water%20Wisdom%20Preparing%20the%20Groundwork%20for%20Cooperative%20and%20Sustainable%20Water%20Management%20in%20the%20Middle%20East,%202008.pdf]}} M.Bitton (talk) 02:20, 28 April 2025 (UTC)

:::This is not OR. This is per the Ariel Encyclopedia written by Zev Vilnay, which places the source of the Besor near Elusa (Haluza), not the source of the Nahal Hevron. Both Arabic and Hebrew Wikipedias agree with this assessment.

:::Regarding your first quote, suppose "the Missouri / Mississippi River originates at Brower's Spring and flows into the Gulf of Mexico." This does not prove they are the same river, just like your first quote does not prove the Nahal Hevron (and Nahal Beersheba) is the Besor Stream.

:::It is true that the stream's watershed includes Nahal Hevron, but watershed is defined as the watercourse and all of its tributaries. The Missouri River is not part of the Mississippi River, though the former is part of the latter's watershed.

:::Also, this proves my point that Wadi Gaza is not a tributary of the Besor Stream - it is its Arabic name. If you disagree, what is the stream in Elusa called? Provide a source. It can't be the Besor as Vilnay says it is, for the Besor's source is in the Hebron Mountains. Closetside (talk) 03:03, 28 April 2025 (UTC)

::::{{tq|Both Arabic and Hebrew Wikipedias agree|q=yes}} unreliable sources don't count.

::::{{tq|suppose..|q=yes}} I'm not interested in your WP:OR.

::::The scholarly sources says:

::::{{talkquote|the Hebron /Besor Stream that originates in the Palestinian Authority territory (West Bank), flows westward, crossing into Israel, and ultimately crosses again into the Palestinian Authority territory in Gaza Strip on the Mediterranean coast.}}

::::That's all that matters. M.Bitton (talk) 03:11, 28 April 2025 (UTC)

::::: This academic paper (see map on page 3) clearly confirms the Besor Stream originates in the northwest Negev. Closetside (talk) 03:24, 28 April 2025 (UTC)

::::::Here's a working link to the [https://www.researchgate.net/publication/237516593_Differentiated_suspended_sediment_transport_in_headwater_basins_of_the_Besor_catchment_northern_Negev|academic paper]. Closetside (talk) 03:41, 28 April 2025 (UTC)

::::::Here is the map: [http://www.researchgate.net/figure/Nahal-Besor-catchment-and-the-location-of-three-headwater-sub-catchments-providing-data_fig1_237516593] Closetside (talk) 03:43, 28 April 2025 (UTC)

::::Not just Vilay, but [https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=elusa+besor&btnG=| 120 scholarly papers]. The way to reconcile this research, clearly placing the source near Elusa and research that says the Hebron / Besor [/Gaza ] stream is that the former is the literal source of the stream and the latter is a waterflow path used in scholarly research about Israeli-Palestinian water cooperation, for the term is not used outside of that matter. Closetside (talk) 03:11, 28 April 2025 (UTC)

:::::I have zero interest in WP:OR, what other wiki projects say and links to some Google search.

:::::I have provided a reliable scholarly source (about "water management") that says: "the Hebron /Besor Stream that originates in the Palestinian Authority territory (West Bank), flows westward, crossing into Israel, and ultimately crosses again into the Palestinian Authority territory in Gaza Strip on the Mediterranean coast." M.Bitton (talk) 03:14, 28 April 2025 (UTC)

::::::Google Scholar is Google for academic papers. Check the link and you'll get academic papers confirming Elusa is on the Besor's watercourse, 120 of them, the first three I quoted below. Closetside (talk) 03:16, 28 April 2025 (UTC)

:::::A few quotes establishing Elusa as close to the source, not Hebron:

:::::"Elusa was the most important urban center in the northern Negev during the Roman and Byzantine periods. Situated on a rock plateau at the confluence of two wadis, Nahal Besor and Nahal Atadim, ca. 45 km south-east of Gaza, the site provided year-round availability of groundwater that was made accessible by deep wells."

:::::"such as Elusa (in Nahal Besor)"

:::::"Investigations of the extra-urban area of Elusa aimed at obtaining a better understanding of the

:::::development of the city and its hinterland, from the establishment of the settlement in the third century

:::::BCE to its end in the eighth century CE. The extra-urban survey focused on four belts (1–4; for Belts 1–

:::::3 see Fig. 1) surrounding the city. The interior belt (Belt 1; width 50–200 m) comprises mainly large

:::::waste mounds arranged in a distinct ring configuration. Investigations then progressed farther from the

:::::city, to a belt of mainly horticultural land use of a less well-defined aerial shape (Belt 2; width 80–400 m).

:::::Floodplain horticulture was practiced in suitable locations, such as the banks of Nahal Besor (Wadi el-

:::::Khalaṣa)"

:::::These are from the first Google Scholar results. And so on.

:::::Find me a paper outside of Israel/Palestine water cooperation that places the Hebron Mountains within the Besor's watercourse (it specifically, not a tributary). Closetside (talk) 03:15, 28 April 2025 (UTC)

::::::What did I tell you? When we remove Israel from the search, the Besor Stream is never mentioned in connection with Hebron or settlements near Hebron. (//scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=hebron+besor+-"israel"&btnG). Closetside (talk) 03:21, 28 April 2025 (UTC)

{{od|5}} separating the sourced content (about the origin of the Besor stream) from the wall of text.

• {{talkquote|the Hebron /Besor Stream that originates in the Palestinian Authority territory (West Bank), flows westward, crossing into Israel, and ultimately crosses again into the Palestinian Authority territory in Gaza Strip on the Mediterranean coast."{{cite book|author=Alon Tal, Alfred Abed Rabbo|title=Water Wisdom Preparing the Groundwork for Cooperative and Sustainable Water Management in the Middle East|year=2010|publisher=Rutgers University Press |isbn=978-0-8135-4770-1|page=142}}}}
  
• {{talkquote| The Khalil Besor river originates in the West Bank, flows through Israel and then reaches the Mediterranean in the Gaza Strip.{{cite journal | last=Brooks | first=David | last2=Trottier | first2=Julie | title=Confronting water in an Israeli–Palestinian peace agreement | journal=Journal of Hydrology | publisher=Elsevier BV | volume=382 | issue=1-4 | year=2010 | issn=0022-1694 | doi=10.1016/j.jhydrol.2009.12.021 | pages=103–114}}}} M.Bitton (talk) 16:55, 28 April 2025 (UTC)

:Here are my sources:

:{{talkquote| Elusa was the most important urban center in the northern Negev during the Roman and Byzantine periods. Situated on a rock plateau at the confluence of two wadis, Nahal Besor and Nahal Atadim, ca. 45 km south-east of Gaza, the site provided year-round availability of groundwater that was made accessible by deep wells.Wozniok, Tali Erickson-Gini–Diana. "Elusa–Urban Development and Economy of a City in the Desert." Archaeology and Economy in the Ancient World: 141.}}

:Also consult the map on page 2. Elusa is south of the Nahal Beersheva's mouth where it spills into the Besor. (My position is the Nahal Beersheva is a tributary, M.Bitton's position is it is part of the Besor while the portion that originates near Sde Boker and flows through Elusa is a tributary)

:{{talkquote|The situation in the Negev Highlands was quite different from that of Edom and Moab. Here, precipitation is limited to between 80 and 100 mm. annually and water was obtained from wells in a handful of places with high groundwater such as Elusa (in Nahal Besor), Rehovot-in-the-Negev (Nahal Shunra) and Nessana (Nahal Ezuz).Erickson-Gini, Tali. "Nabataean agriculture: Myth and reality." Journal of Arid Environments 86 (2012): 50-54.}}

:{{talkquote|Nahal Eshtemoa, an un-named first-order headwa ter tributary of the nearby Nahal Bikhra, and Nahal Sekher are tributaries of Nahal Be’er Sheva, one of the largest tributaries of Nahal Besor (Fig. 1).Alexandrov, Yulia, et al. "Differentiated suspended sediment transport in headwater basins of the Besor catchment, northern Negev." Israel Journal of Earth Sciences 57 (2008).}}

:Also consult the map on page 3, which the quote references. [https://www.researchgate.net/publication/237516593_Differentiated_suspended_sediment_transport_in_headwater_basins_of_the_Besor_catchment_northern_Negev| Here] is another link to it. Closetside (talk) 17:35, 28 April 2025 (UTC)

::1) Your analysis of a map cannot contradict properly sourced text. 2) That map was uploaded by Nathaniel Bergman, who co-published an article that says:

::{{talkquote|Nahal Besor is a large transboundary ephemeral river shared between Israel, the West Bank (Palestinian and Israeli territories) in the northeast, and finally, its western outlet into the Mediterranean Sea is in the Gaza Strip.Bergman, N., Roskin, J., Greenbaum, N. et al. Comment on “Analysis of extreme rainfall trend and mapping of the Wadi pluvial flood in the Gaza coastal plain of Palestine”. Acta Geophys. 72, 4333–4340 (2024). https://doi.org/10.1007/s11600-024-01446-9}}

::Further cementing what the first two sources say about the Besor stream and its origin (in the West Bank). Moreover, the statement (about the origin of the Besor stream and its course) isn't contradicted by any of the sources that you cited (including the ones that you added after this comment).

::{{tq| M.Bitton's position is..|q=yes}} I already stated what the RS say. Your interpretation of my so-called "position" is neither wanted nor appreciated. M.Bitton (talk) 22:40, 28 April 2025 (UTC) M.Bitton (talk) 22:40, 28 April 2025 (UTC)

:::No, the map clearly shows where the Besor Stream originates, and that is in the northwest Negev. Reading a map, just like reading text, is not OR.

:::It seems that the Besor stream has two definitions in the literature:

:::1) Within Israeli-Palestinian water relations, it is defined as the Nahal Hevron > Nahal Beersheva > Lower Besor Stream. This is done out of convenience, because that path is most important to the topic. The upper Besor Stream remains unnamed, as it is not important to the topic.

:::2) Everywhere else, including when the upper Besor is discussed (such as digs of Elusa), it is defined as originating near Sde Boker in the northwest Negev, not in the Hebron mountains.

:::If you believe this hypothesis is incorrect, the answer to these questions should be trivial:

:::What is the name of the tributary of the Besor stream Elusa (Haluza) was adjacent to?

:::Provide an example of a paper not discussing Israeli-Palestinian water relations referring to the stream in the Hebron mountains as the Besor stream.

:::However, these tasks are impossible. Elusa was built on the upper Besor stream and the stream in the Hebron mountains is called the Nahal Hevron. Closetside (talk) 23:09, 28 April 2025 (UTC)

::::Another one for good measure, proving it originates near Sde Boker northwest Negev, not the Hebron mountains.

::::{{talkquote|"Three excavation areas (A–C; Fig. 2) were opened on a moderate hill near the confluence of Upper Nahal Besor and Nahal Boqer, yielding flint items dating from the Middle Paleolithic, Epipaleolithic and Chalcolithic periods."

::::Oron, Maya. “Upper Nahal Besor: Final Report.” Hadashot Arkheologiyot: Excavations and Surveys in Israel / חדשות ארכיאולוגיות: חפירות וסקרים בישראל, vol. 129, 2017. JSTOR, https://www.jstor.org/stable/26693802. Accessed 28 Apr. 2025.}} See also the first figure, the location map.

::::Until both my challenges are answered - which should be trivial if your position is correct - I will rest my case. Closetside (talk) 23:23, 28 April 2025 (UTC)

:::::User:M.Bitton has provided sources explicitly saying the river originates in the West Bank. The quotes provided by User:Closetside are less direct, which is part of the challenge. Taking the example of the quote from Oron 2017 immediately above this comment, it doesn't state where the source of the Besor stream is.

:::::If we have disagreeing sources perhaps the answer is to present the information from both sets in the article, explaining to the reader that different groups approach the river in different ways? Richard Nevell (talk) 19:34, 3 May 2025 (UTC)

::::::There are two sources with completes map of the Besor Stream drainage basin (see refs 5 and 8 in 3O disagreements below), including all major tributaries labelled. These sources explicitly show the stream originating near Sde Boker, with Nahal Be'er Sheva as a tributary and the Nahal Hevron as a tributary of the Nahal Be'er Sheva. Here is another one for good measure

::::::{{talkquote|The Hebron Stream originates in the mountainous Wadi system of the Hebron Hills in the West Bank, f lowing downstream into the Israeli city of Be’er Sheva where it merges with the Be’er Sheva Stream and joins the Besor that originates in Israel’s Southern Negev Report on the Status of the Hebron-Besor-Wadi Gaza Basin Besor Stream/Flooding, January Charlotte De Bruyne) Besor 2018}}. This is a report about I/P (Israeli-Palestinian) water relations which describes the drainage basin as I prefer.

::::::I have yet to see a paper outside of I/P water relations (i.e. about general geography history, archaeology, etc.) which describes the drainage basin as M.Bitton prefers. Furthermore, the papers which they cite do not give a name to supposed tributary of the Besor that originates at Mount Boker and ends at Hamifgash or the supposed tributary of the Besor that originates south of the Yatir Forest and ends east of Beersheba. If M.Bitton's preferred description is an alternate model, they should be able to provide the papers and the names of the two supposed tributaries (which my preferred description names as the Upper Besor and Upper Be'er Sheva respectively) fairly easily, although despite this dispute going on for 5 days, they are still emptyhanded.

::::::It seems that the three papers M.Bitton cites to support their conclusion uses a style which sacrifices technical accuracy for convenience considering the uniqueness of the path (West Bank --> pre-1967 Israel --> Gaza Strip). Furthermore, the first one using the Hebron / Besor Stream and the second similarly uses Khalil (i.e. Hebron) Besor river, implying a specifically defined path different from the typical definition. Otherwise, they would have just said Besor as opposed to Hebron/Besor. The last paper is a comment that is not peer reviewed and just like a preprint is not RS.

::::::So I suggest the typical description, which is my preference in the lede and a paragraph about the unique path in the body. Closetside (talk) 03:45, 4 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::::See below where I respond to @M.Bitton's sources, showing that each describe the Besor originating near Sde Boker, and not near Hebron. Tldr: The first source identifies the Nahal Hevron as one of the Besor's [indirect] tributaries, the second refers to the course once as a variant of the first's without further elaboration (Khalil Besor vs Hebron/Besor) and the Bergman comment explicitly shows the source near Sde Boker. So the notion that the Besor originates near Hebron has no RS to back it up. Closetside (talk) 23:37, 5 May 2025 (UTC)

::::::Closetside has indeed failed to provide reliable sources that contradict what the RS say "in plain English", and worse, they insist on presenting their pov as the only viable option. M.Bitton (talk) 13:35, 6 May 2025 (UTC)

@M.Bitton we have hashed out the fourth point of disagreement listed at 3O, but not really the first three. If you have a response, please state it. I contend the Besor Stream is one stream, there is undue coverage of the Wadi Gaza national reserve, and the fact that it divides the Gaza Strip need not be mentioned because it can trivially be derived from the article. If you disagree, please let me and the 3O know. Closetside (talk) 20:35, 29 April 2025 (UTC)

:The only point that I aware of is the one that have has been discussed. I wasn't aware that you actually asked for a 3O, but since you did, we might as well wait for a volunteer; assuming {{u|Richard Nevell}} (who participated in the discussion) isn't interested. M.Bitton (talk) 20:50, 29 April 2025 (UTC)

::Do you disagree with me on the first three points? It seems you do but you are reverting without any explanation. Closetside (talk) 21:10, 29 April 2025 (UTC)

:::You asked for a 3O and I pinged Richard Nevell, so we wait (there is no rush and certainly no excuse for you to impose your POV). M.Bitton (talk) 21:12, 29 April 2025 (UTC)

::::Without a reason, this is DONTLIKEIT. I thought you disagree with me on the first three points but apparently you don't or you do without reason. In order for 3O to work, both sides must disagree and explain their rationale. If you don't disagree or can't explain why you disagree with me on the first three points, kindly self-revert. Closetside (talk) 21:18, 29 April 2025 (UTC)

:::::Since you clearly prefer your WP:OR over properly sourced content, I see no point in wasting time arguing with you. I'm done here (until another editor weighs in). M.Bitton (talk) 21:19, 29 April 2025 (UTC)

::::::How was my content OR? The MOS recommends not citing in the lede if the points are cited in the body later. Closetside (talk) 21:30, 29 April 2025 (UTC)

:::::::I admit to having some trouble following the discussion, is the issue that there is one source that describes the stream the way M.Bitton prefers, but all the other sources describe it the way Closetside prefers? MilesVorkosigan (talk) 19:11, 2 May 2025 (UTC) WP:ECR M.Bitton (talk) 20:51, 2 May 2025 (UTC)

::::::::Remember that I am a biased participant, although here's how I'd summarize it.

::::::::There are a few sources, all having to do with Israeli-Palestinian water relations that describe the Besor stream as M.Bitton prefers. However, this is done out of convenience for the path chosen the only water path that starts in the West Bank, traverses through pre-1967 Israel and ends in the Gaza Strip.

::::::::In all other cases, including when the upper Besor Stream is discussed, or when the Nahal Be'er Sheva or the Nahal Hevron are discussed outside the context of Israeli-Palestinian water relations the sources always describe it how I prefer. I have challenged M.Bitton to give a single counterexample, a challenge they have not fulfilled.

::::::::Therefore, I suggest the lede describing it how I prefer and including a section in the article about the special water path. Closetside (talk) 19:18, 2 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::::::Even within Israeli-Palestinian water relations, this special definition is not universal. For example, this article{{cite book |title= Advancing Sanitation Solutions and Reuse in the Hebron Stream: Shared Waters / Geographic Description |page= 29 |editor-last= |editor-first= |work= Community Based Problem Solving on Water Issues: Cross-border "Priority Initiatives" of the Good Water Neighbors Project |publisher=EcoPeace Middle East |location= Amman, Bethlehem and Tel Aviv |volume= November, 2016 |url= https://old.ecopeaceme.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Community_Based_Problem_Solving_Nov_2016_Final.pdf |access-date= 23 February 2021}}, which is about Israeli-Palestinian water relations but describes it how I prefer it (see map on page 31). The map is based on the International Journal of River Basin Management - Volume 8, 2010 - Issue 2. Closetside (talk) 19:22, 2 May 2025 (UTC)

::::::::M.Bitton has not disputed my position on the other three points in the 3O request although they insisted on me leaving the article until I get one so here we are. Closetside (talk) 19:26, 2 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::::::I have no idea what 3 points you're referring to. In any case, once what the RS say (instead of some irrelevant editor's OR) is taken into account, everything else will fall into place. M.Bitton (talk) 19:58, 2 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::::::I'm sorry I won't be able to provide any help, M. Bitton has declared themselves the owner of this talk page and that discussing the name of a stream on a talk page is somehow implicated in the Arab-Israeli Conflict, so I'm not allowed to talk to you.

:::::::::It's too bad they won't even let me fix the typos, but I guess when an article belongs to an editor like this, even that is too much.

:::::::::You may need to have them topic-banned, show them this edit-warring and the request should be fairly straightforward. Good luck! MilesVorkosigan (talk) 20:57, 2 May 2025 (UTC)

::::::::It's more like there are RS (that I cited) that describe the Stream (its course and its origin) and nothing else that contradict them. M.Bitton (talk) 19:56, 2 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::::::So if I understand you correctly, you have chosen to just ignore all of the other sources, and believe that only your source is reliable? MilesVorkosigan (talk) 19:59, 2 May 2025 (UTC) WP:ECR M.Bitton (talk) 20:51, 2 May 2025 (UTC)

::::::::::Which other sources describe the Stream's course and origin? BTW, there are two sources (three we include the one about the author of the map) that describe this. They are all cited above. M.Bitton (talk) 20:02, 2 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::::::::I was just trying to provide a third opinion, telling me that you are unable to see the other sources that have been mentioned here on the discussion page is not helpful. I'm not going to repeat them for you. MilesVorkosigan (talk) 20:17, 2 May 2025 (UTC) WP:ECR M.Bitton (talk) 20:51, 2 May 2025 (UTC)

::::::::::::You're accusing me of ignoring some sources, that's why I asked you a "which other sources describe the Stream's course and origin?". M.Bitton (talk) 20:20, 2 May 2025 (UTC)

{{od|12}} Here are the sources that describe the River's course and its origin (which is at the centre of the dispute).

• {{talkquote|the Hebron /Besor Stream that originates in the Palestinian Authority territory (West Bank), flows westward, crossing into Israel, and ultimately crosses again into the Palestinian Authority territory in Gaza Strip on the Mediterranean coast."{{cite book|author=Alon Tal, Alfred Abed Rabbo|title=Water Wisdom Preparing the Groundwork for Cooperative and Sustainable Water Management in the Middle East|year=2010|publisher=Rutgers University Press |isbn=978-0-8135-4770-1|page=142}}}}
  
• {{talkquote| The Khalil Besor river originates in the West Bank, flows through Israel and then reaches the Mediterranean in the Gaza Strip.{{cite journal | last=Brooks | first=David | last2=Trottier | first2=Julie | title=Confronting water in an Israeli–Palestinian peace agreement | journal=Journal of Hydrology | publisher=Elsevier BV | volume=382 | issue=1-4 | year=2010 | issn=0022-1694 | doi=10.1016/j.jhydrol.2009.12.021 | pages=103–114}}}} M.Bitton (talk) 20:23, 2 May 2025 (UTC)

:Let's go over these sources:

:1) A quote from later on in the page

:{{talkquote|The magnitude of cross-boundary pollution was demonstrated in joint Israeli Palestinian research in which the authors participated, assessing conditions in two major streams and their upper Palestinian tributaries: Hebron (El-Halil)-Besor and Shekhem (Nablus)-Alexander (Tal et al. 2008).}}

:From this quote, the Nahal Hevron is an (indirect) tributary of the Besor, not part of it.

:Later on, the Besor is identified independently, making it clear the Hebron / Besor stream is not an alternate name for the Besor Stream, but rather shorthand for the Nahal Hevron, [the lower Nahal Be'er Sheva] and the lower Besor.

:{{talkquote|A relevant example is “greening the desert” by modifying an ephemeral stream into a perennial one, usually by discharging sewage or effluent (e.g., the Besor Stream). For the past 15 years effort has been made to restore streams in Israel. Such effort is yet to be implemented in the Palestinian Authority territory.}}

:Bergman comment: Later on a map (figure 1) clearly shows the main stream originates near Sde Boker and the part of its watershed that is in the West Bank consists entirely of tributaries.

:Now to your second source. Khalil Besor river is a variant of Hebron / Besor. There is no reason to think that those authors dispute the first source, which clearly identifies them as tributary and stream as opposed to one stream. They most definitely don't do so explicitly. Closetside (talk) 20:40, 4 May 2025 (UTC)

::This is nothing more than a continuation of what you have been doing from the get go. I suggest you read Richard Nevell's comment. M.Bitton (talk) 13:41, 6 May 2025 (UTC)

:::Are you outright ignoring my sources and my analysis of your sources which demonstrate the source is on Mount Boker and not in Hebron? There is no requirement the RS must communicate in text form, although Report on the Status of the Hebron-Besor-Wadi Gaza Basin Besor Stream/Flooding, January Charlotte De Bruyne) Besor 2018 explicitly spells out what I have previously said (Nahal Hevron, Nahal Be'er Sheva, Besor Stream). Every one of my sources (6 in total) is incompatible with the Hebron origin notion. So is the Bergman comment and your first source. Your second source uses a variant of a term in the first source (Khalil Besor river for Hebron / Besor stream). Your first source subsequently identifies the Nahal Hevron as a tributary of the Besor (see above), and your second source doesn't dispute your first source's statement.

:::This is straight-up disruptive editing, so I am giving you three options:

:::1) Acknowledge my sources and analysis, and give a thorough response to it.

:::2) Concede the dispute

:::3) Get reported at AE

:::The choice is yours. Closetside (talk) 14:35, 6 May 2025 (UTC)

::::AE it is. In fact, I already asked the admins to include you in the open report. M.Bitton (talk) 14:45, 6 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::I have no objection to it and I will formally present my evidence and respond to your arguments. Closetside (talk) 14:48, 6 May 2025 (UTC)

{{Reflist-talk}}

Since 3O appears to be a waste of time, I suggest we use WP:DRN. Let me know what you think. M.Bitton (talk) 22:38, 2 May 2025 (UTC)

:How about you withdraw your opposition to me acting on the first three points you supposedly don’t disagree with and respond to my scholarly sources that show the Besor originates near Sde Bokor and have complete labelled maps of the stream and its tributaries? If you do, I will withdraw my statement at ANI. If not, DRN will almost certainly come to the same conclusion. Closetside (talk) 22:47, 2 May 2025 (UTC)

::How about you withdraw your opposition to me adding reliably sourced content? I see no point in discussing the details of a river whose very course and origin are disputed. Anyway, does that mean that you're not interested in resolving the issue through DRN? M.Bitton (talk) 22:52, 2 May 2025 (UTC)

:::See, complete ignorance of my sources. I have acknowledged your sources and given an explanation (convenience over technical correctness due to I/P water relations). I'm not opposed to going on DRN, just be advised all the 3O's points were valid and DRN will almost certainly give the same result. Closetside (talk) 23:08, 2 May 2025 (UTC)

::::The most important part is that you're not opposed to going to DRN (where you will justify why you removed the reliable source). M.Bitton (talk) 23:10, 2 May 2025 (UTC)

{{User:ClueBot III/DoNotArchiveUntil|1749855669}}

{{rfc|hist|pol|rfcid=E40F2E4}}

Is the main source of the Besor stream Does the channel designated as the Nahal Besor start in the northwestern Negev (Mount Boker) or in the Hebron Hills of the West Bank? Or should both sources be treated equally (i.e. there is no main source)? Closetside (talk) 22:20, 9 May 2025 (UTC)

:Perhaps it would be wise to wait until the discussion is concluded at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement, unless there is particular urgency? Richard Nevell (talk) 22:30, 9 May 2025 (UTC)

::AE is about M.Bitton's conduct not about content so I see no reason to wait. Closetside (talk) 22:37, 9 May 2025 (UTC)

:::Comment This may be a skill issue, but I tried to check reference 2, "Confronting water in an Israeli–Palestinian peace agreement" I don't see the referenced definition in the summary. Looks like any discussion of the stream would be behind the WP:PAYWALL. Does anyone have access to sciencedirect?

:::I think it would be useful to see what the document says about the definition and how it was chosen. MilesVorkosigan (talk) 23:16, 9 May 2025 (UTC)

:Support Mount Boker. Every RS cited above that explicitly takes a position places the source at Mount Boker and the Hebron Hills as the source of an indirect tributary, the Nahal Hevron. Hevron-Besor stream is similar to Missouri-Mississippi river and not equivalent to Besor just like Missouri-Mississippi is not equivalent to Mississippi. Closetside (talk) 22:40, 9 May 2025 (UTC)

:Comment I could ony find sources talking about the streams source being at Mount Boker. Durraz0 (talk) 07:28, 10 May 2025 (UTC)

:We should probably look for a good source for usage of [https://goong.com/word/nahal-meaning/ nahal] to help clarify things a bit. What's clear tho is that nahal (and wadi) can be used to describe landforms, similar to gulch or valley and both tell us that these are ephemeral waters. That's important, these waters only reach the Med six or seven times a year. Neither term has the exact same meaning as stream.{{quote|It is evident that most of the drainage area of Nahal Besor is an Israeli territory, only a small portion of it is actually Palestinian in the West Bank and Gaza (less than 10% of the total basin’s area).|source=Bergman et al 2024}}

:I think this quote makes it clear that those who write about the area can use the proper name "Besor" and refer to the basin or watershed.

:But the article has stream in the title and that imposes certain conventions and understanding on readers. Most will probably think of this similar to a river system. We draw a blue line on a map from source to outlet and give that channel a name or names. If we are discussing the channel named Besor that line clearly runs from Boker to the Med in Gaza. Lesser waters (tributaries) join along that path and are given names as well. We can never say that Hebron Hills is the source of the named "stream" here, nor could we call it the source of headwaters of the basin. If describing the basin the headwaters are all those most distal to the outlet and include both Mount Boker and Hebron Hills.

:One important channel in our basin is Hebron-Beersheva-Besor following the names from source to outlet. A source cited by that Bergman paper calls this the "main channel" of the basin, so we might be somewhat justified in stating that this is the "main source" for the Basin. That we have two papers differing as to what is the main channel is really not that big of a difficulty. One is seemingly going by how the channel has been named and perhaps the area drained and the other possibly by the amount of water which flows (such as it is) through the channel. In the context of modern water use issues it is readily apparent that this channel is the most interesting or "notable" in WP terms because it is transboundary. But this channel does not carry the name "Besor" throughout it length. The channel which does carry the name "Besor" for its length does not pass through the West Bank.

:So for the RfC question what is the "source"? Well what are you talking about, the named channel or the basin? Our sources are really pretty clear here from context as to what they are describing and i'm a little surprised at the seeming difficulties here on the talk page. The important thing tho is that the resulting article ends up being clear about what it is describing when it mentions "source" or "headwaters" fiveby(zero) 15:40, 10 May 2025 (UTC)

::Fully agree. If you go up to the RM, my dispute with @Richard Nevell was about should there be an additional article called Wadi Gaza for the portion in the Gaza Strip and this article should be about the portion of Israel. To the best of my knowledge, he did not oppose the Nahal Besor naming of this article. In hindsight, the RM discussion was a waste of time; we both agreed this article should be named Nahal Besor, not Besor Stream, and your comment only strengthens the case for the renaming. Considering there is no opposition, I suggest a page mover should move this page to Nahal Besor. If Richard Nevell wants to expand Wadi Gaza into an article from a redirect, let him (it's against WP:NCRIVER imo) and a separate merge discussion would take place. Closetside (talk) 02:19, 11 May 2025 (UTC)

::Since the Hebron-Beersheva-Besor is the main channel, doesn't that explain the following statement by Bergman (the same source cited above)?

::{{quote|Nahal Besor is a large transboundary ephemeral river shared between Israel, the West Bank (Palestinian and Israeli territories) in the northeast, and finally, its western outlet into the Mediterranean Sea is in the Gaza Strip.Bergman, N., Roskin, J., Greenbaum, N. et al. Comment on “Analysis of extreme rainfall trend and mapping of the Wadi pluvial flood in the Gaza coastal plain of Palestine”. Acta Geophys. 72, 4333–4340 (2024). https://doi.org/10.1007/s11600-024-01446-9}}

::You also raised an important point about the notability: if this article is about the notable part of the Besor/Wadi Gaza, i.e., the basin/watershed, then the sourcing will be a lot easier. M.Bitton (talk) 19:19, 12 May 2025 (UTC)

:::Abstracts are not reliable and often contradict the body of a research paper. From the Wikipedia article (emphasis mine):

:::{{talkquote|It is generally agreed that one must not base reference citations on the abstract alone, but the content of an entire paper.{{cite journal |last1=Pavlovic |first1=Vedrana |last2=Weissgerber |first2=Tracey |last3=Stanisavljevic |first3=Dejana |last4=Pekmezovic |first4=Tatjana |last5=Milicevic |first5=Ognjen |last6=Lazovic |first6=Jelena Milin |last7=Cirkovic |first7=Andja |last8=Savic |first8=Marko |last9=Rajovic |first9=Nina |last10=Piperac |first10=Pavle |last11=Djuric |first11=Nemanja |last12=Madzarevic |first12=Petar |last13=Dimitrijevic |first13=Ana |last14=Randjelovic |first14=Simona |last15=Nestorovic |first15=Emilija |last16=Akinyombo |first16=Remi |last17=Pavlovic |first17=Andrija |last18=Ghamrawi |first18=Ranine |last19=Garovic |first19=Vesna |last20=Milic |first20=Natasa |title=How accurate are citations of frequently cited papers in biomedical literature? |journal=Clinical Science |date=12 March 2021 |volume=135 |issue=5 |pages=671–681 |doi=10.1042/CS20201573|pmid=33599711 |pmc=8048031 }} This is because abstracts may not be fully representative of the full report or article. Therefore, basing reference citations solely on the information present in the abstract could be misleading.
According to the results of a study published in PLOS Medicine, the "exaggerated and inappropriate coverage of research findings in the news media" is ultimately related to inaccurately reporting or over-interpreting research results in many abstract conclusions.{{cite journal|last1=Yavchitz|first1=Amélie|last2=Boutron|first2=Isabelle|last3=Bafeta|first3=Aida|last4=Marroun|first4=Ibrahim|last5=Charles|first5=Pierre|last6=Mantz|first6=Jean|last7=Ravaud|first7=Philippe|last8=Bero|first8=Lisa A.|title=Misrepresentation of randomized controlled trials in press releases and news coverage: a cohort study|journal=PLOS Medicine|date=11 September 2012|volume=9|issue=9|pages=e1001308|doi=10.1371/journal.pmed.1001308|pmid=22984354|pmc=3439420 |doi-access=free }} A study published in JAMA concluded that "inconsistencies in data between abstract and body and reporting of data and other information solely in the abstract are relatively common and that a simple educational intervention directed to the author is ineffective in reducing that frequency."{{cite journal|last1=Pitkin|first1=Roy M.|last2=Branagan|first2=Mary Ann|title=Can the accuracy of abstracts be improved by providing specific instructions? A randomized controlled trial|journal=JAMA|date=15 July 1998|volume=280|issue=3|pages=267–9|doi=10.1001/jama.280.3.267|pmid=9676677|doi-access=free}}{{open access}} Other "studies comparing the accuracy of information reported in a journal abstract with that reported in the text of the full publication have found claims that are inconsistent with, or missing from, the body of the full article."{{cite journal|last1=Hopewell|first1=Sally|last2=Clarke|first2=Mike|last3=Moher|first3=David|last4=Wager|first4=Elizabeth|last5=Middleton|first5=Philippa|last6=Altman|first6=Douglas G|last7=Schulz|first7=Kenneth F|last8=von Elm|first8=Erik|title=CONSORT for reporting randomized controlled trials in journal and conference abstracts: explanation and elaboration|journal=PLOS Medicine|date=22 January 2008|volume=5|issue=1|pages=e20|doi=10.1371/journal.pmed.0050020|pmid=18215107|pmc=2211558 |doi-access=free }}{{open access}}{{cite journal |last1=O'Donohoe |first1=TJ |last2=Dhillon |first2=R |last3=Bridson |first3=TL |last4=Tee |first4=J |title=Reporting Quality of Systematic Review Abstracts Published in Leading Neurosurgical Journals: A Research on Research Study. |journal=Neurosurgery |date=1 July 2019 |volume=85 |issue=1 |pages=1–10 |doi=10.1093/neuros/nyy615 |pmid=30649511|doi-access=free }}
According to the Modern Language Association, there are almost no circumstances in which it is acceptable to cite an abstract: "It only makes sense to cite an abstract if you are writing about the abstract as an abstract and not about the work it summarizes: for instance, if you are writing about different styles of writing abstracts used in the sciences and humanities."[https://style.mla.org/citing-an-abstract/ How do I cite an abstract?]}}

:::In the article's body, the map clearly shows the stream originating at Mount Boker in the southern Negev, not in the Hebron Hills. Closetside (talk) 19:26, 12 May 2025 (UTC)

::::Is there a definition in the text of the full article? MilesVorkosigan (talk) 19:36, 12 May 2025 (UTC)

::::{{quote|Within Israel and the West Bank and Gaza Strip (WBGS) there are 15 streams that cross the Palestinian/Israeli Green Line. Twelve of these are major streams that flow year-round in a westward direction toward the Mediterranean Sea and the other three flow east to the Dead Sea or the Jordan River. All of them originate in watersheds located in the Palestinian Authority, or in lands that will eventually be outside Israeli jurisdiction, and then flow into Israel (these include: the Na’aman, Zipori, Kishon, Taninim, Hadera, Alexander, Yarkon, Ayalon, Soreq, Lachish, Besor, and Beer Sheva streams).Asaf, L., Negaoker, N., Tal, A., Laronne, J., Khateeb, N.A. (2007). Transboundary Stream Restoration in Israel and the Palestinian Authority. In: Lipchin, C., Pallant, E., Saranga, D., Amster, A. (eds) Integrated Water Resources Management and Security in the Middle East. NATO Science for Peace and Security Series. Springer, Dordrecht. https://doi.org/10.1007/978-1-4020-5986-5_13}}

::::As I said, making this article about the Besor basin/watershed (a notable subject, unlike the stream) will solve the problem. M.Bitton (talk) 19:40, 12 May 2025 (UTC) M.Bitton (talk) 19:40, 12 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::{{tquote|All of them originate in watersheds}}. The drainage basin of the Besor originates in the West Bank, not the stream itself. Closetside (talk) 19:48, 12 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::In that very paper (use Springer on the Wikipedia Library), figure 2 on page 5 of the pdf clearly shows a northwestern Negev origin. Closetside (talk) 19:54, 12 May 2025 (UTC)

::::::I don't know the reliability of government sites for this particular issue, but these people seem pretty confident:

::::::Drainage administration site: [https://www.besor.org.il/he/river_administration/%d7%9e%d7%a0%d7%94%d7%9c%d7%aa-%d7%a0%d7%97%d7%9c-%d7%94%d7%91%d7%a9%d7%95%d7%a8/ River drainage authority]

::::::*Background – The catchment basin of Nahal HaBsor is one of the largest in the basins of Nahal HaBsor. Its total area is about 3,500 square kilometers, and the Besor River crosses and connects a special variety of landscapes and geographical units. It descends from the high Negev Mountains in the south, through the arid plains of the Negev Plateau, to the "Green Negev" and the Gaza Strip. In the center – Nahal Be'er Sheva descends from the Hebron Mountains through Be'er Sheva and connects to Nahal HaBsor in the area of Be'er Osnat – Tze'elim in the north – Nahal Gerar – from the hills of Lahav, Rahat and the western Negev until it connects to Nahal HaBsor near Tel Jama – Re'im. The main streambeds in the entire area create a dramatic contrast in the structure of the landscape and serve as connecting arteries to the units of landscape, nature, settlements and populations, history and agriculture. MilesVorkosigan (talk) 20:15, 12 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::::That's an Israeli government site. Considering the State of Palestine doesn't disagree, it's a valid source. Regardless, there is a preponderance of sources with a northwestern Negev origin and none for a Hebron Hills origin. Closetside (talk) 20:22, 12 May 2025 (UTC)

::::::::These sources (as well as others) disagree with your {{tq|none|q=yes}} assertion:

::::::::{{quote|the Hebron /Besor Stream that originates in the Palestinian Authority territory (West Bank), flows westward, crossing into Israel, and ultimately crosses again into the Palestinian Authority territory in Gaza Strip on the Mediterranean coast."{{cite book|author=Alon Tal, Alfred Abed Rabbo|title=Water Wisdom Preparing the Groundwork for Cooperative and Sustainable Water Management in the Middle East|year=2010|publisher=Rutgers University Press |isbn=978-0-8135-4770-1|page=142}}}}

::::::::{{quote| The Khalil Besor river originates in the West Bank, flows through Israel and then reaches the Mediterranean in the Gaza Strip.{{cite journal | last=Brooks | first=David | last2=Trottier | first2=Julie | title=Confronting water in an Israeli–Palestinian peace agreement | journal=Journal of Hydrology | publisher=Elsevier BV | volume=382 | issue=1-4 | year=2010 | issn=0022-1694 | doi=10.1016/j.jhydrol.2009.12.021 | pages=103–114}}}} M.Bitton (talk) 21:19, 12 May 2025 (UTC) M.Bitton (talk) 21:19, 12 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::::::Those sources seem much more general than the specific ones such as the drainage authority. MilesVorkosigan (talk) 21:28, 12 May 2025 (UTC)

::::::::::They are specific, secondary reliable sources about the subject (water management and hydrology). They are also WP:THIRDPARTY. M.Bitton (talk) 21:35, 12 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::::::::See above where I rebut the use of those sources. I'd entertain a response but repeating the argument without acknowledging the rebuttal is problematic and won't get you anywhere. Closetside (talk) 21:40, 12 May 2025 (UTC)

::::::::::::See above where an editor agrees with me. Moreover, I'm suggesting a compromise that will solve the issue of what is barely covered in RS. M.Bitton (talk) 21:42, 12 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::::::::You assert that without addressing the fact that '...Water Management in the Middle East' and "Confronting water in an Israeli–Palestinian peace agreement" are much more general than ones specifically discussing the Besor and/or this specific basin.

:::::::::::As you've been told by neutral editors before, ignoring sources that you don't like isn't how Wikipedia works. MilesVorkosigan (talk) 22:30, 12 May 2025 (UTC)

::::::::::::1) The RS dictate what is a fact and what isn't, and when they disagree, we state what they say and let the readers decide by themselves. 2) Nobody's ignoring anything. 3) I also made a suggestion about the scope of the article. M.Bitton (talk) 22:41, 12 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::::::::::If you prefer that I say 'read but then refuse to engage with in a constructive manner' instead of 'ignore', that's fine. Either way, this is why you keep getting blocked by admins. MilesVorkosigan (talk) 23:10, 12 May 2025 (UTC)

::::::::::::::Please read WP:NPA. M.Bitton (talk) 23:32, 12 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::Furthermore, the paper uses the terms Beer Sheva Stream and Hebron Stream many times, implying that they are separate from the Besor Stream. Your position would support the articles for those streams into this one and new articles for what my position calls the upper Besor and perhaps the upper Be'er Sheva. Closetside (talk) 20:20, 12 May 2025 (UTC)

::::::Please refer to my suggestion (regarding the notability of the subject). M.Bitton (talk) 20:28, 12 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::::This violates convention per WP:NCRIVER, where the article is titled by the principal watercourse and tributaries (i.e. its watershed) are discussed within the article. I have no opposition to writing that it has tributaries in the West Bank, or its drainage basin extends into the Hebron Hills of the West Bank (it's true and should be written); my only opposition is that those tributaries are not part of the Besor stream itself so therefore the Besor doesn't originate in the West Bank. See my on-deck version where I mention it. Closetside (talk) 21:13, 12 May 2025 (UTC)

::::::::The reliable sources decide what's WP:NOTABLE and what's not, and when they certain terms interchangeably, it's usually a good sign that whatever they keep referring to (the watershed in this instance) is the notable subject. M.Bitton (talk) 21:22, 12 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::::::Find me another river or stream where the river is not the name of the article but rather its watershed. Rather, WP:RIVER clearly says the article should be about the main river or stream and the article should talk about its drainage basin. Closetside (talk) 21:38, 12 May 2025 (UTC)

::::::::::I said what I needed to say. I'll await input from uninvolved editors (especially, with regard to the scope of the article). M.Bitton (talk) 21:43, 12 May 2025 (UTC)

::::::::What is an "on-deck version"? Richard Nevell (talk) 23:03, 12 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::::::The second-most recent version; which I plan to instate once consensus emerges that the main stream of the Besor originates at Mount Boker, not the Hebron Hills. Your position is unclear so could you please restate it, considering my rebuttal of M.Bitton's sources? Closetside (talk) 23:22, 12 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::::::Here's a link [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Besor_Stream&oldid=1290089020]. On-deck is an expression that comes from baseball. Closetside (talk) 23:23, 12 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::::::Please let us know what you think of my suggestion (regarding the scope of the article). M.Bitton (talk) 23:35, 12 May 2025 (UTC)

::::::::::Framing the article around the basin sounds feasible. It would probably mean renaming this article to reflect that, but given there was no consensus on the title last time around that may not be a bad thing. Richard Nevell (talk) 22:41, 13 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::::::::Our disagreement was about whether there should be a separate Wadi Gaza article, not whether the Besor article should be Nahal Besor (which is the most common name per the analysis above I did and you did not dispute). Regardless "Besor basin" would violate NCRIVER and is a middle ground between what the RS say and a notion without unambiguous support from RS. Closetside (talk) 23:26, 13 May 2025 (UTC)

:Comment suggest that you get editors who have more experience with how river sources are usually determined in cases of conflicting evidence and who are au fait with the technical literature from Wikipedia:WikiProject Geography and Wikipedia:WikiProject Rivers (and at all costs avoid pinging Wikipedia:WikiProject Israel or Wikipedia:WikiProject Palestine). Samuelshraga (talk) 18:04, 10 May 2025 (UTC)

:Comment There is no source that unambiguously places the origin of the Besor in the Hebron Hills, and many sources unambiguously place the origin near Sde Boker through maps and text. Meanwhile, no map places the origin in the Hebron Hills. Finally, the Nahal Be'er Sheva and Nahal Hevron exist, but no Hebrew name exists for the supposed tributary that starts near Sde Boker (it is the Upper Besor per the RS). Therefore, any compromise between these 2 notions is the middle-ground fallacy. Nobody opposes discussing the West Bank part of the watershed in the article (see the on-deck version). Numerically, 4 editors support Sde Boker, and 1-2 support the "middle-ground". Assuming no further comments, I say close this RfC and move to Nahal Besor while we're at it; this is the common name and there seems to be no opposition from anyone but M.Bitton for it. Renaming this article Besor watershed or keeping it as Besor Stream violates NCRIVER and COMMONNAME IMO. Closetside (talk) 22:07, 13 May 2025 (UTC)

::This [https://wikipedialibrary.idm.oclc.org/login?auth=production&url=https://search.ebscohost.com/login.aspx?direct=true&db=a9h&AN=43867098&site=eds-live&scope=site Differentiated suspended sediment transport in headwater basins of the Beso...: The Wikipedia Library.] has, on page 179, both a map and text that show the Besor running generally SE from the coast while the tributaries from the east and northeast are given different names. As you can see by the name, it is specifically about the Besor system. MilesVorkosigan (talk) 18:39, 14 May 2025 (UTC)

:::That source says: "Nahal Besor drains a large part of the northern Negev and the Hebron Mountains". M.Bitton (talk) 12:48, 19 May 2025 (UTC)

:Comment Regardless of what is claimed above, numerous RS (about the subject) describe, in no uncertain terms, the stream as originating in the West Bank. Obviously, that doesn't mean that the stream can't have another origin (this is the part that some editors seem to be struggling with).

:{{tq|Framing the article around the basin sounds feasible.|q=yes}} Indeed. It will also allow us to address the root of the problem (the issue of the terms that are used interchangeably in various contexts). M.Bitton (talk) 12:48, 19 May 2025 (UTC)

::Please stop trying to pretend that anyone is not "getting" something just because they disagree with your feelings of ownership around this article. Remember WP:AGF. MilesVorkosigan (talk) 16:17, 19 May 2025 (UTC)

:::Please read WP:NPA and WP:ASPERSIONS. M.Bitton (talk) 16:22, 19 May 2025 (UTC)

::::Note that this reply did not include an apology for the way M.Bitton chose to pretend that disagreeing with them means that people are struggling with something.

::::At some point you're going to need to read and start following all the articles you throw around in response to everyone else, or you're going to get blocked again. MilesVorkosigan (talk) 19:26, 19 May 2025 (UTC)

::{{u|M.Bitton}}, since the AE admins seem incapable, i'll say that either you are either purposefully misrepresenting sources or lack the competence to edit articles concerning physical geography. Regardless, you should not be editing this article. fiveby(zero) 18:22, 19 May 2025 (UTC)

:::{{re|Fiveby}} You cannot just throw accusations without substantiating them:

:::Which source am I misrepresenting and how? M.Bitton (talk) 18:54, 19 May 2025 (UTC)

::::As has been explained to you ad nauseam the sources you are using to try to alter the origin concern the watershed, catchments, or tributaries as the one you quoted above. You keep insisting as you said above {{tq|the source says "Besor Stream" and that's all I care about}} and continue to fail to read and understand the sources or educate yourself in basic physical geography. A river or stream drains it watershed. The Hebron Hills are a source of the Besor watershed or basin, the Hebron/Besor catchment, the Hebron-Beersheva-Besor tributary, but they are not the origin of the Besor. This ain't the fucking Nile. fiveby(zero) 19:26, 19 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::Actually, there is at least one editor who agrees with me, so your opinion is just that and nothing else.

:::::{{tq|This ain't the fucking Nile.|q=yes}} this is what I call a super-unconvincing argument. I will also note that you have failed to substantiate your uncalled for and totally baseless accusation of "source misrepresentation".

:::::Now, since the editor who started this RfC insists that "Wadi Gaza" and the "Besor stream" are one and the same, can you explain to me (ideally, using reliable sources) how one can claim that "Wadi Gaza" has just one origin (which happens to be the one that the OP thinks it is)? M.Bitton (talk) 19:32, 19 May 2025 (UTC)

::::::Let's not get distracted by strawman arguments, the RFC is not about whether Wadi Gaza has "just one origin".

::::::Please stick to the topic and try to address what people are actually saying without attacking them. MilesVorkosigan (talk) 19:43, 19 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::::{{tq|the RFC is not about whether Wadi Gaza has "just one origin"|q=yes}} Does that mean that you agree with the fact that it has more than one (which would mean that this RfC is badly framed)? M.Bitton (talk) 19:46, 19 May 2025 (UTC)

::::::::In future, please assume that I mean the words I posted, and not some set of different words that you'd prefer I had posted, it will save us all a lot of time. MilesVorkosigan (talk) 16:19, 20 May 2025 (UTC)

::::::To set the record straight, the Wadi Gaza is not equivalent with the Nahal Besor. This is because the Western and Arab way of naming watercourses is different.

::::::In the West, watercourses of a drainage basin are named in a tree-like manner, with the root being the watercourse's ultimate mouth (the Med here) and side branches (tributaries) break of the main branch (the principal watercourse). Sometimes at a fork, the main branch terminates and both feeding watercourses recieve a different name. Here, the Nahal Besor is the main branch, going from the Med to Mount Boker, and the Nahal Gerar, Nahal Be'er Sheva, etc. are tributaries branching off the main stream.

::::::In the Arab world, the names of watercourses are more fluid with residents of a settlement naming the watercourses around them, without coordination from distant settlements. Hence, the Nahal Besor is Wadi al-Shammen near Mount Boker, Wadi al-Khalasa in Elusa and Wadi Gaza in Gaza. The Wadi Gaza originates at Mount Boker as much as it originates in the Hebron Hills for both are tributaries and the watercourse is no longer called the Wadi Gaza east of the Gaza Strip.

::::::On the English Wikipedia, we use the Western way because English RS use the Western way. Not saying the Arab way is inferior, but it's bizarre to most English speakers who are used to the Western way and unfamiliar with the Arab way. Here too, most of us are used to the Western way, while @M.Bitton is familiar with the Arab way due to his background and @Richard Nevell through his research.

::::::That's why I kept asking: "What is the tributary of the Besor Stream that originates at Mount Boker?" If the Besor originates in the Hebron Hills, the Western way requires a label for the branch that originates at Mount Boker. The Arab way does not for names are fluid. Nothing has ever been provided, despite a major archaeological site (Elusa (Haluza)) on its banks. This refutes a non-Mount Boker origin for the Besor.

::::::I hope this is a nice explanation that explains both the majority and minority position and why they differ. Closetside (talk) 20:19, 19 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::::{{tq|the Wadi Gaza is not equivalent with the Nahal Besor|q=yes}} Then why did you write this (to oppose the split that was proposed by {{u|Richard Nevell}})?

:::::::You also wrote: {{tq|There is no other tributary of the Wadi Gaza; it is the same stream as the Besor.|q=yes}} M.Bitton (talk) 20:23, 19 May 2025 (UTC)

::::::::Your question is answered in the Requested Move discussion if you read the whole thing in context. MilesVorkosigan (talk) 20:42, 19 May 2025 (UTC)

::::::::Replace "The Nahal Besor and Wadi Gaza are the same stream" with "the Wadi Gaza is part of the Nahal Besor, not a different stream" and the rest of my rationale reads fine. I wasn't aware of Arab hydrology nomenclature at the time, and most of our readers aren't aware of it either. Closetside (talk) 23:58, 19 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::::::First, that's an unsourced claim, and second, it doesn't address the issue that I raised above.

:::::::::{{tq|I wasn't aware of Arab hydrology|q=yes}} do you have a reliable source that links the subject to "Arab hydrology"?

:::::::::You also said (after being aware of Arab hydrology) that {{tq|the Wadi Gaza is not equivalent with the Nahal Besor|q=yes}}. M.Bitton (talk) 00:33, 20 May 2025 (UTC)

::::::::::This is an observation. For example, Wadi Qelt has three names despite being a small wadi. Same for Nahal Hevron in Arabic and here as well (see above). Nahal Og is named after its Hebrew name because in Arabic it has multiple names which leads to the Hebrew name being the COMMONNAME. The multiple names correspond to different sections of the wadi. In contrast, in Hebrew there is only one name from source to mouth.

::::::::::Of course after knowing Arab hydrology the Nahal Besor is not the Wadi Gaza, the latter is a section of a former that ends somewhere on the Gaza Strip-Israel border.

::::::::::Yes, the Wadi Gaza has multiple origins. This is because no headwater of the Besor basin is labelled the Wadi Gaza in Arabic. However, Besor is the common name of the watercourse and RS identify its source as Mount Boker. When you tell me the tributary name (in Hebrew) that goes from Mount Boker, we can talk. Otherwise it is clear where the Besor originates. Closetside (talk) 03:33, 20 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::::::::Here's a more interesting observation:

:::::::::::# To prevent the article from being split, you argued at length that "Wadi Gaza is the same as the Besor stream".

:::::::::::# To deny a sourced origin that you disagree with, you claimed that "Wadi Gaza is not equivalent with the Nahal Besor".

:::::::::::# To justify the above contradictory claims (after being confronted with them), you claimed that you weren't aware of "Arab hydrology".

:::::::::::# When asked to provide a reliable source that links "Arab hydrology" to the subject, you ignored the request.

:::::::::::# You then stated that "the Nahal Besor is not the Wadi Gaza" while mentioning "Arab hydrology" again (without a source in sight).

:::::::::::# After wrapping the lot in more unsubstantiated claims, you are now setting some irrelevant condition which needs to be met (in the language of your choice) before "we can talk".

:::::::::::M.Bitton (talk) 12:08, 21 May 2025 (UTC)

::::::::::::I'm not sure how widespread this phenomenon is; all I know is that the Wadi Gaza definitely loses its name by the Eshkol National Park, where the Besor is known as Wadi Shellal (see {{url|brill.com/display/book/edcoll/9789004400504/BP000016.xml}}; {{url|www.kkl-jnf.org/tourism-and-recreation/israeli-heritage-sites/anzac-trail/sites/eshkol-park-nahal-besor/}}). Further south, at Elusa, the Besor is known as Wadi al-Khalassa (see {{url|www.researchgate.net/figure/Preliminary-layout-of-the-city_fig2_350453543}}).

::::::::::::This is also true for several other streams (see above); I am not a hydrologist and can't confirm if this is universal. However, that is irrelevant; the point is that the Besor has multiple names in Arabic and Gaza is only the name of its most downstream section; Shellal (even per your notion) and al-Khalassa (per the RS but not your notion). In English and Hebrew, the entire stream is the Nahal Besor (see sources above) and per WP:NCRIVER, we write articles about streams, not sections of streams.

::::::::::::If Mount Boker is not the origin of the Besor, it is the origin of a tributary. What is this tributary called (in Hebrew)? Meanwhile Nahal Hevron and Nahal Be'er Sheva are tributaries of the Besor (see the articles with sources). Closetside (talk) 16:45, 21 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::::::::::Given that this observation (which speaks for itself) is followed by another pile of unsubstantiated claims (about what is what and what isn't), I'd say it's high time to let the RS and the polices do the talk (ideally, by some editors who haven't been invited to this RfC). M.Bitton (talk) 16:51, 21 May 2025 (UTC)

::::::::::::::I have 3 editors already that came on their own volition (Fiveby, MilesVorkosigan, and Durraz0) which all agree with me. With Richard Nevell agreeing with you it is 4-2 and considering your side hasn't provided one map in your favor or named the alleged Mount Boker tributary, I look forward to a closing in my favor. Closetside (talk) 17:02, 21 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::::::::::::Please read this very important observation, as well as what I said here. M.Bitton (talk) 17:05, 21 May 2025 (UTC)

::::::::::::::::The fact that the Besor has multiple names in Arabic based on sections is based on RS (see my post above); whether Arab hydrology generally does this is conjuncture (at least to me, a non-hydrologist) and not relevant here. A preponderance of maps and scholarly papers have shown a Mount Boker origin. Not a single map shows a Hebron origin, nor does a single paper communicate that unambiguously. No paper has named the alleged tributary, which would have been trivial to find because Elusa is a major archeological site. With this, I rest my case. Closetside (talk) 17:11, 21 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::::::::::::::All in all, I'd say that this a further proof that as long as the issues that have been raised by Richard Nevell and myself haven't been addressed, we will have conflicting claims that we will need to represent per WP:NPOV. I will also note that so far, I only listed the sources that mention the word "Besor", but should this article end up conflating the Besor stream with Wadi Gaza, then the situation will become worse (a lot worse, since the latter is more notable, and the RS covering it much clearer). I'm done here. M.Bitton (talk) 17:15, 21 May 2025 (UTC)

::::::::::::::::::This paper{{url|https:/d1wqtxts1xzle7.cloudfront.net/47936333/SURFACE_WATER_CHARACTERIZATION__UTILIZAT20160810-2551-6sr465-libre.pdf}} equates the downstream Besor with the Wadi Gaza. Countless sources show the Hebrew name for the Wadi Gaza is the [lower] Nahal Besor. Here's another paper {{url|agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1029/2004WR003344}}.

::::::::::::::::::Once again, I have rebutted all your sources as ambiguous at best, not been shown a single map or a name of a tributary that must exist per your notion. There is no other POV. I have shown here that Arab hydrology divides the Besor into sections through RS. You have a tendency to ignore my arguments and beat the same drum like a proponent of a canard long after it has been refuted. I truly rest my case here until I can get an unambiguous source, a map and the name. Closetside (talk) 17:28, 21 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::::::::::::::::{{tq|You have a tendency to ignore my arguments|q=yes}} you have a tendency to contradict yourself and make unsubstantiated claims (depending on what you're after).

:::::::::::::::::::You also seem to be conflating the "Wadi Gaza/Nahal Besor" (the watershed) with the stream (above source). Incidentally, making the article about the watershed is one of solutions that was proposed above.

:::::::::::::::::::Anyway, you'll be glad to know that WP:NPOV is non-negotiable and the principles upon which it is based cannot be superseded by other policies or guidelines, nor by editor consensus. M.Bitton (talk) 17:31, 21 May 2025 (UTC)

::::::::::::::::::::Do you have any idea what you're trying to claim is non-neutral here? You implied before that you're trying to bludgeon this discussion because it has some vital connection to politics, but I don't think you ever said specifically what it is.

::::::::::::::::::::Or are you just bringing up NPOV to wave policies around because you can't answer the question about what the stream is named at Mt. Boker? MilesVorkosigan (talk) 22:55, 21 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::::::::::::::::::1) According to M.Bitton, my position somehow "erase[s] Palestine". Steelmanning his argument, relegating the West Bank portion of its drainage basin to its tributaries would draw less attention to this fact. However, the Mt. Boker origin is not my invention, it is the position of the RS with no unambiguous dissent. Furthermore, the Mt. Boker definition pre-existed the State of Israel and the West Bank so "erasing Palestine" cannot be the motive. In fact, the explicitly pro-Palestinian Arabic Wikipedia does not dispute the Mount Boker origin.

:::::::::::::::::::::2) Pretty much. NPOV considers actual POVs, not mere ruminations of anonymous Wikipedia editors, and if it actually existed, its proponents would have several unambiguous statements, maps, and a name for what they would consider the Mount Boker tributary to the Besor.

:::::::::::::::::::::I recommend that both of us ( @MilesVorkosigan and I) rest our cases in this dispute. Any closer will realize the "undetermined source" is a false middle ground between the RS position and an unsupported position. Furthermore, this editor got blocked two months ago for this exact behavior and will probably get blocked again. Thanks for having my back. Closetside (talk) 23:12, 21 May 2025 (UTC)

::::::::::::::::::::::Ah, got it. Gotta right the great wrongs. That would explain it. Good idea, I have nothing further to add. MilesVorkosigan (talk) 23:26, 21 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::::::::::::::::::{{quote|The mere mention of the NPOV policy,
And the air thickens, they can't see.|Unknown author, who also coined "veni, vidi, risi"}}. M.Bitton (talk) 00:42, 22 May 2025 (UTC)

::::::::::::::::::::::Please remember that the talk pages are for discussing the article, not taunting other editors. MilesVorkosigan (talk) 00:52, 22 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::::::::::::::::::::I didn't much discussion in the above walls of mumbo jumbo and aspersions from those who panicked at the mere mention of a policy. M.Bitton (talk) 00:53, 22 May 2025 (UTC)

• Multiple origins (per RS and WP:NPOV). As well as the other RS that I cited previously, and given the ongoing RM and the refusal to address the scope issue, I will list some of the reliable sources that mention the origin of Wadi Gaza (the common name of the stream).
• #{{tq2|Wadi Gaza which flows during the winter season , originating from the Hebron mountains in the east and ends at sea shore south of Gaza, has been blocked by Israel. Several damns were built all along the way preventing the water from flowing into the Gaza Strip which otherwise would have provided a valuable source os water to be used for irrigation and for compensation for the lost pumped out water.{{cite book|author=J. Isaac, H. Shuval|title=Water and Peace in the Middle East |url=http://books.google.com/books?id=k2KZLlJ90LgC&pg=PA253|year=1994|publisher=Elsevier |isbn=978-0-08-087517-0|pages=253}}}}
  
• #{{tq2|"The mat samples used in this study were obtained from Wadi Gaza, Gaza Strip, Palestine. This wadi originates at Hebron in the West Bank and flows in the east-west direction across the Gaza Strip".Raeid M. M. Abed, Nimer M. D. Safi, Jürgen Köster, Dirk de Beer, Yasser El-Nahhal, Jürgen Rullkötter, Ferran Garcia-Pichel. Microbial Diversity of a Heavily Polluted Microbial Mat and Its Community Changes following Degradation of Petroleum Compounds. Appl Environ Microbiol68:.https://doi.org/10.1128/AEM.68.4.1674-1683.2002}}
  
• #{{tq2|"The sources of Wadi Gaza originate in the hills above the village of Samu'a in the Hebron hills.."{{cite book|author=Nathan Shachar|title=The Gaza Strip Its History and Politics - From the Pharaohs to the Israeli Invasion of 2009|url=http://books.google.com/books?id=f3LEEAAAQBAJ&pg=PA14|year=2009|publisher=Liverpool University Press |isbn=978-1-83764-212-0|page=14}}}}
  
• #{{tq2|"Historically, Wadi Gaza (a stream originating in the West Bank) used to flow through Gaza to the coast, providing an additional water resource. However, the vast majority of flow from this stream is now diverted into a dam in Israel, and no longer reaches Gaza (Amnesty International Citation2009)."al-Shalalfeh, Z., Napier, F., & Scandrett, E. (2017). Water Nakba in Palestine: Sustainable Development Goal 6 versus Israeli hydro-hegemony. Local Environment, 23(1), 117–124. https://doi.org/10.1080/13549839.2017.1363728}}
  
• #{{tq2|"Wadi Gaza which flows during the winter season, originating from the Hebron mountains in the east and ends at the sea shore south of Gaza."{{cite book|last=Shawwa|first=Isam R.|title=Studies in Environmental Science|chapter=Water Situation In The Gaza Strip|publisher=Elsevier|year=1994|issn=0166-1116|doi=10.1016/s0166-1116(08)71414-6|page=251–259}}}}
  
• #{{tq2|"Wadi Gaza, a natural stream that originates in the Hebron Mountains and flows to the Mediterranean Sea."{{cite book|author=Richard Falk, John Dugard, Michael Lynk|title=Protecting Human Rights in Occupied Palestine Working Through the United Nations|year=2023|publisher=SCB Distributors |isbn=978-1-949762-55-6|pages=165}}}}
  
• #{{tq2|"Wadi Gaza, on the other hand, is the only form of runoff that exists in the Gaza Strip. The Wadi is 160 km long and 1.5–3.0 m depth in some areas. The Wadi is considered a trans-boundary watercourse with Israel, as it originates in the Hebron Mountains in the West Bank, crosses the Green Line passing through Israel, then crosses the territory of the Gaza Strip to eventually reach its final destination, the Mediterranean Sea."Tamimi, Abdel Rahman (2009) "Hydro-Politics: Water and Difficult Dialogues on Resources," Al-Quds University, Macalester International: Vol. 23, Article 12.

Available at: https://digitalcommons.macalester.edu/macintl/vol23/iss1/12}}

• :I can add more if needs be. M.Bitton (talk) 13:52, 4 June 2025 (UTC)
• :How about a map that conforms with your notion or the name of the alleged tributary that originates at Mount Boker? All these articles talk about Israel-Palestine water relations, correctly mention that part of Wadi Gaza's headwaters are in the West Bank, and do not give a hydrogeological overview of the watershed. Closetside (talk) 18:25, 4 June 2025 (UTC)

• This section has 7 editors and over 5,000 words. Editors are limited to 1,000 words in WP:ARBPIA discussions. Please follow this rule. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 12:57, 5 June 2025 (UTC)
• Support Hebron Hills per most reliable sources.[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Besor_Stream#c-M.Bitton-20250604135200-Closetside-20250509222000] Skitash (talk) 01:48, 6 June 2025 (UTC)

{{Reflist-talk}}

{{requested move/dated|Nahal Besor}}

:Besor Stream → {{no redirect|Nahal Besor}} – Per the watercourse's common name (see analysis above), @Fiveby's note that nahal is a more accurate descriptor of the watercourse than stream, and no explicit opposition from @Richard Nevell about the change (the dispute was about this article's scope. Closetside (talk) 18:29, 1 June 2025 (UTC)

• Oppose Nahal Besor is more often than not used to refer to the drainage/basin. If this article ends up being about that (which is what I proposed in the above RfC), then the common name would be Wadi Gaza (something that is easily verified), and if not, then the split that was proposed by Richard Nevell is the way to go. In other words, there is no point in discussing a move until the article's scope has been agreed upon. M.Bitton (talk) 18:44, 1 June 2025 (UTC)

:Please note that in the following results, I didn't include all the variant spellings such as "Wadi Ghuzzeh", nor did I bother with single words that are combined with others to mean different things in different contexts (such as "Gaza" and *:"Besor") or any other names that haven't been proposed as potential candidates.

• :*Google hits: "Wadi Gaza" ([https://www.google.com/search?q=%22Wadi+Gaza%22 132,000] results). "Nahal Besor" ([https://www.google.com/search?q=%22Nahal+Besor%22 10,900] results).
• :*Scholar: "Wadi Gaza" ([https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&q=%22Wadi+Gaza%22 1,070] results). "Nahal Besor" ([https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&q=%22Nahal+Besor%22 917] results). "Wadi Ghazzeh" ([https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&q=%22Wadi+Ghazzeh%22 354] results).
• :*Ngrams: [https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=wadi+gaza%2Cnahal+besor%2Cwadi+ghazzeh%2Cwadi+ghuzzeh%2Cwadi+ghazza&year_start=1800&year_end=2022&case_insensitive=true&corpus=en&smoothing=3 the result] speaks for itself. "Wadi Gaza" gets more hits than all of them. In fact, even its spelling variant "Wadi Ghazzeh" gets more hits than "Nahal Besor". M.Bitton (talk) 14:16, 2 June 2025 (UTC)

• Support - Per the point that it is a seasonal watercourse, so “stream” doesn’t work as well, and the exhaustive work Richard and Closet did counting references. Seems to follow the cited NCRiver policy best. Would it be helpful to include a redirect from “Wadi Gaza”? MilesVorkosigan (talk) 23:02, 1 June 2025 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by MilesVorkosigan (talk • contribs)
• Support – as a neutral observer coming across this move request, Nahal Besor appears to be the common name. On a different note, I would strongly admonish {{u|M.Bitton}}'s conduct during this move request. Their comments stink of gaslighting and POV-pushing, as well as a large amount of bludgeoning, which they falsely (re. gaslighting point) accuse the other party of doing. M.Bitton appears to have made an exceptional claim (i.e. Wadi Gaza being the common name) and failed to give any substantive evidence to verify this claim (e.g. ngrams, Google hits). I will note M.Bitton was previously blocked only a few months ago for this exact reason — it appears the problems have only continued since then. 🐔 Chicdat  ^{Bawk to me!} 10:46, 2 June 2025 (UTC)
• Support. Let's start here - "nahal" in Hebrew means "stream/river." So, per WP:ENGLISHTITLE, we should be titling the article as "Besor stream/river" unless we have a good reason not to do so.

:And we have that good reason - [https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=besor+valley%2Cbesor+basin%2Chabesor%2Cnahal+besor%2Cbesor+stream%2Cbesor+brook%2Cwadi+gaza&year_start=1800&year_end=2022&case_insensitive=true&corpus=en&smoothing=3 English language sources show much more usage of "nahal" versus any of the common geological names I could turn up] (Wadi Gaza there for comparison). The primary exception case, per our titling policy.

:Also of note - there are very few recently-published English sources on this stream/brook/valley that I could find. The 2 predominant uses of "Besor" seem to be 1) In the bible, in reference to the place David rested his army (e.g. [https://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionary/besor/] [https://www.abarim-publications.com/Meaning/Besor.html]), and 2) The modern name for part of this particular waterway/valley/river system (e.g. [https://www.jpost.com/cafe-oleh/ask-the-expert/the-beautiful-besor-brook] [https://www.israel21c.org/rare-six-legged-gazelle-adds-a-new-doe-to-its-herd/]). This article can encompass both scopes, since there isn't much sourcing covering either. And the article isn't very long at present, anyway. PhotogenicScientist (talk) 15:40, 4 June 2025 (UTC)

• Move it to Wadi Gaza - per M.Bitton's proof that it is the WP:COMMONNAME, esp [https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=wadi+gaza%2Cnahal+besor%2Cwadi+ghazzeh%2Cwadi+ghuzzeh%2Cwadi+ghazza&year_start=1800&year_end=2022&case_insensitive=true&corpus=en&smoothing=3 this ngram] 𐩣𐩫𐩧𐩨 Abo Yemen (𓃵) 07:25, 5 June 2025 (UTC)
• Move to Wadi Gaza - this is clearly the more common name in English sources in popular media, while the usage of the terms (per google scholar) are closer, we also still see wadi Gaza used more often. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 08:51, 5 June 2025 (UTC)
• Move to Wadi Gaza — Per M.Bitton's data showing "Wadi Gaza" has significantly more Google hits (132,000 vs 10,900) and Google Scholar results (1,070 vs 917). This clearly demonstrates it's the WP:COMMONNAME in English sources. R3YBOl (talk) 09:55, 5 June 2025 (UTC)
• Move to Wadi Gaza or Wadi Gaza (Nahal Besor). I prefer the latter option as both Wadi Besor and Nahal Besor are frequently used. Regarding WP:HITS, the part Closetside refers to is about how incorrect names can appear more often the correct names. However, as Wadi Gaza is not a misnomer the facet they refer to is not relevant so the volume of Google results, while a single data point and not the end of the discussion, can still be considered. Additionally, while Closetside presents the occurrence of Tell Jemmeh with the terms Wadi Gaza and Nahal Besor in Google Scholar, a single cherry picked example is not especially informative. If we look at Tell el-Ajjul with the same methodology Wadi Gaza is more common ([https://scholar.google.com/scholar?start=91&q=(%22Wadi+Gaza%22+OR+%22Wadi+Ghazzeh%22+OR+%22Gaza+Valley%22+OR+%22Wadi+Ghuzzeh%22)+%2B+(%22Tell+el-ajjul%22+OR+%22Tall+el-ajjul%22+OR+%22Tall+al-Ajjul%22+OR+%22Tall+el-Ajjul%22)&hl=en&as_sdt=0,5 100] results compared to [https://scholar.google.com/scholar?start=70&q=(%22Nahal+Besor%22+OR+%22Nahal+Habesor%22+OR+%22Besor+Valley%22+OR+%22the+Besor%22)+%2B+(%22Tell+el-ajjul%22+OR+%22Tall+el-ajjul%22+OR+%22Tall+al-Ajjul%22+OR+%22Tall+el-Ajjul%22)&hl=en&as_sdt=0,5 80]); I wouldn't conclude much based on that result either, aside from that the lone case provided by Closetside is not necessarily representative. Richard Nevell (talk) 00:14, 6 June 2025 (UTC)
• Move to Wadi Gaza per WP:COMMONNAME. Skitash (talk) 01:30, 6 June 2025 (UTC)

:Pinging @MilesVorkosigan, @Durraz0 and @M.Bitton for previous participation in related discussions. Closetside (talk) 18:29, 1 June 2025 (UTC)

::At this point I’d be tempted to suggest that we create a new article for the stream and follow the river naming policy for that one, while letting Bitton keep ownership of this article and make it about whatever lets him name it per his POV.

::Unfortunately, doing anything else sounds exhausting. MilesVorkosigan (talk) 20:12, 1 June 2025 (UTC)

:::I'd suggest you !vote in support of the requested move. I think we'll get the necessary supermajority. Closetside (talk) 20:18, 1 June 2025 (UTC)

:::Hi Miles, I appreciate that you're frustrated but casting aspersions isn't going to get this discussion off on the right foot. Let's confine the discussion to the article, not fellow editors. Richard Nevell (talk) 20:44, 1 June 2025 (UTC)

::::I was offering a suggestion for a solution, aren’t you the one who wants an article based on the watershed? And Bitton wants to use the Palestinian name or say that the stream originates in the West Bank, so that would make everyone happy. MilesVorkosigan (talk) 22:23, 1 June 2025 (UTC)

:::::That wasn't all you were doing, but as long as we focus on the article we can move past it. Richard Nevell (talk) 23:50, 1 June 2025 (UTC)

: Please note that WP:NCRIVER is a WikiProject's guidance not policy. Presumably the guidance was arrived at through consensus and represents common practice, and this may be mere semantics, but policy is different. Richard Nevell (talk) 23:48, 1 June 2025 (UTC)

• :You say that "Wadi Gaza" is "easily" the common name. Please show your work, for my work above shows the opposite, or at least a deadlock. And in a deadlock, you pick the name that applies to the largest section, which is the Nahal Besor per WP:NCRIVER. Closetside (talk) 21:33, 1 June 2025 (UTC)
• :Per NCRIVER:
• :{{talkquote|Some rivers have names with multiple spellings which vary with the different countries the rivers pass through. An example would be the Cunene River in Angola, which is known as the Kunene River in Namibia. Occasionally, a river can have several genuinely distinct names. For example, the Cuando River not only has the variant spelling Kwando, it's also called the Linyanti and the Chobe. The following rules are suggested for choosing a primary name for such a river:
• :* If the river is particularly famous or most commonly mentioned under one name, then choose that name.
• :* If the section of the river that uses a particular name is much longer than other sections, then use that as the name.
• :* If everything else is equal, then choose the name for the section of the river closest to the river's mouth, since generally that is where the river is widest.
• :It is important that all the alternate names redirect to the name chosen for the article title. This helps prevent the creation of duplicate articles.}}
• :Wadi Gaza is the common name in the Gaza Strip; Nahal Besor is the common name in Israel. The Israeli section is much longer than the Gaza section, so unless you can prove that the name Wadi Gaza is particularly famous or most common name by a wide margin, Nahal Besor will be the name. And my analysis above disputes your claim that Wadi Gaza is the most common name, let alone by a wide margin as NCRIVER requires. It's "easy" - your word - so please show your work. If you can, I will support moving this page to Wadi Gaza instead. Closetside (talk) 21:38, 1 June 2025 (UTC)
• ::A simple search on Google scholar that compares "Wadi Gaza" to "Nahal Besor" is all that's needed. Obviously, you cannot compare them with either "the Gaza" or "the Besor" (as you did previously), since the result will be about different things (farm, farmers, region, experiment, stage, culture, plain, etc.).
• ::Anyway, the above wall of text is irrelevant to the most important thing I said, regarding the article's scope. M.Bitton (talk) 22:10, 1 June 2025 (UTC)
• :::Are you unfamiliar with the phrases "the Gaza Strip", "the Gaza war", and "the Gaza genocide"? On the other hand, there is no X where "the Besor X" is unrelated to the watercourse. Closetside (talk) 22:27, 1 June 2025 (UTC)
• ::::Please refrain from bludgeoning the RM with irrelevant comments. M.Bitton (talk) 22:30, 1 June 2025 (UTC)
• :::You forgot to include variants, which led to my total. Every other X for the phrase "the Besor X" is derived from the river (the valley, the watershed, the region, etc.) but this doesn't hold for "the Gaza X". I note the false accusation of bludgeoning and irrelevancy (this was a legit response). Closetside (talk) 22:49, 1 June 2025 (UTC)
• ::::I didn't forget anything, so please, do me a favour and refrain from bludgeoning the RM with your irrelevant and insulting comments.
• ::::Anyway, back to what I said regarding the article's scope. M.Bitton (talk) M.Bitton (talk) 22:57, 1 June 2025 (UTC)
• :::::Stop belittling my valid comments. There is no universal standard for transliterating Hebrew or Arabic, or translating Wadi or Nahal (or choosing to transliterate instead) so of course one must include variants! Next time and I will report you to AE, along with everything else dismissed without prejudice. Closetside (talk) 23:01, 1 June 2025 (UTC)
• ::::::Ignoring the deliberate bludgeoning. Back to what I said regarding the article's scope. M.Bitton (talk) 23:06, 1 June 2025 (UTC)
• :::::::The false accusations of bludgeoning continue! Expect an AE report soon, unless you retract. Closetside (talk) 23:13, 1 June 2025 (UTC)
• ::::::::Please allow others to express their views without you overwhelming them with a raft of comments that are irrelevant to what they said. M.Bitton (talk) 23:17, 1 June 2025 (UTC)
• :::::::::I rest my case; you have failed (imo) to prove overwhelming preference for Wadi Gaza over Nahal Besor when you factor in variants. My comments are relevant, thank you very much. Closetside (talk) 23:20, 1 June 2025 (UTC)
• ::::::::::I rest my case. M.Bitton (talk) 23:32, 1 June 2025 (UTC)

Comment:

• Raw Google Search total is unreliable per WP:HITS (e.g. Charles Windsor vs Charles Mountbatten-Windsor. The former is 10x more common, the latter is accurate)
• The combined [https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=wadi+gaza%2Cbesor+valley%2Cbesor+basin%2Chabesor%2Cnahal+besor%2Cgaza+valley%2Cbesor+brook%2Cwadi+ghazzeh%2Cwadi+ghuzzeh%2Cwadi+ghazza&year_start=1800&year_end=2022&corpus=en&smoothing=2&case_insensitive=true| ngram], including variants of both, the previous two. If you eliminate WP:RECENTISM, the difference is pretty negligible, with both terms having their heydays.
• The difference is pretty marginal on Scholar. For Tell Jemmeh, an archaeological site on the watercourse, Besor is more common by a clear margin ([https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=%28%22Nahal+Besor%22+OR+%22Nahal+Habesor%22+OR+%22Besor+Valley%22+OR+%22the+Besor%22%29+%2B+%28%22Tell+Jemmeh%22+OR+%22Tell+Gemmeh%22+OR+%22Tel+Gamma%22%29&btnG=| 141] vs [https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=%28%22Wadi+Gaza%22+OR+%22Wadi+Ghazzeh%22+OR+%22Gaza+Valley%22+OR+%22Wadi+Ghuzzeh%22%29+%2B+%28%22Tell+Jemmeh%22+OR+%22Tell+Gemmeh%22+OR+%22Tel+Gamma%22%29&btnG=| 83]), which shows Wadi Gaza is not particularly famous name or the most commonly mentioned name. WP:NCRIVER. Closetside (talk) 12:36, 5 June 2025 (UTC)
• Including the variants in a raw search, Besor is more common; [https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=%28%22Nahal+Besor%22+OR+%22Nahal+Habesor%22+OR+%22Besor+Valley%22+OR+%22the+Besor%22+OR+%22Besor+Stream%22+OR+%22Besor+Brook%22+OR+%22Wadi+Besor%22+OR+%22Besor+River%22%29&btnG= 1690] for Besor vs [https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=%28%22Wadi+Gaza%22+OR+%22Wadi+Ghazzeh%22+OR+%22Gaza+Valley%22+OR+%22Wadi+Ghuzzeh%22+OR+%22Gaza+Stream%22+OR+%22Gaza+River%22+OR+%22Gaza+Brook%22+OR+%22Nahal+Gaza%22+OR+%22Nahal+Azza%22%29&btnG= 1580] for Gaza. The 7% margin may be negligible, but due to NCRIVER, we would pick Besor for the Israeli section of the stream is far longer.

• East of Tell Jemmeh, the Nahal Besor is instead known in Arabic as Wadi es-Shellalah in a section including Eshkol National Park and Wadi al-Khalassa in a section including Elusa. Wadi Gaza is the name only for the most downstream section. On the other hand, Nahal Besor spans the entire stream, from Mount Boker to the Med. Closetside (talk) 12:36, 5 June 2025 (UTC)
• Are you really dismissing the fact that Wadi Gaza has been the common name for a decade as "WP:RECENTISM" 𐩣𐩫𐩧𐩨 Abo Yemen (𓃵) 12:53, 5 June 2025 (UTC)
• :Yes. Recentism is a bias to avoid. Closetside (talk) 12:55, 5 June 2025 (UTC)
• ::WP:COMMONNAME is for the current common name and not the historical common name, which might not be the same thing. The name Wadi Gaza has been the current common name for a decade now. This is clearly not recentism. (Let alone the fact that WP:RECENTISM is just an essay and doesn't need to be followed) 𐩣𐩫𐩧𐩨 Abo Yemen (𓃵) 13:09, 5 June 2025 (UTC)
• :::Both names are ancient in origin and are widely used today. COMMONNAME doesn’t say to only look at the past 10 years. Closetside (talk) 13:13, 5 June 2025 (UTC)
• ::::Yes, it doesn't. It says look at the current common name (now, at the time we're talking) 𐩣𐩫𐩧𐩨 Abo Yemen (𓃵) 13:17, 5 June 2025 (UTC)
• :::::Where? Provide a quote from the policy. Closetside (talk) 13:20, 5 June 2025 (UTC)
• ::::::{{tq|1=it must be the common name in current use}}, its not hard to ctrl-f to find stuff.
  I'd also recommend that you stop WP:SEALIONING 𐩣𐩫𐩧𐩨 Abo Yemen (𓃵) 13:24, 5 June 2025 (UTC)
• :::::::{{+1}} M.Bitton (talk) 13:27, 5 June 2025 (UTC)
• :::::::It was in WP:POVNAME. However, both names are in common use today and have been for a long time. Papers published 30-40 years ago are still widely used today in research. Closetside (talk) 13:29, 5 June 2025 (UTC)
• ::::::::Furthermore, recentism is cautioned against in WP:PROPORTION, a section of WP:NPOV, a policy. So yes, recentism is something we should avoid by policy. Closetside (talk) 13:32, 5 June 2025 (UTC)
• ::::::::You should know about both policies either ways. Plus, you're changing the discussion at this point. No one said anything about the usage of sources published 30-40 years ago. We are discussing current common name, and, unless you're going to bring something new to the discussion, replying is pointless 𐩣𐩫𐩧𐩨 Abo Yemen (𓃵) 13:33, 5 June 2025 (UTC)
• :::::::::Furthermore, the term Wadi Besor (see [https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=wadi+gaza%2Cnahal+besor%2Cwadi+ghazzeh%2Cwadi+ghuzzeh%2Cwadi+ghazza%2Cbesor+valley%2Cnahal+habesor%2Cwadi+besor&year_start=1800&year_end=2022&corpus=en&smoothing=0&case_insensitiv=true this ngram]) is more common than Wadi Gaza or Wadi Ghazzeh. So no, Nahal Besor and its variants are not dwarfed by Wadi Gaza and its variants today. Closetside (talk) 13:43, 5 June 2025 (UTC)
• ::::::::::Desperate stuff. lol M.Bitton (talk) 13:46, 5 June 2025 (UTC)
• ::::::::::why was the search thing set from 1800 till 2022? It is making it harder to see. Anyways that is clearly not the case on [https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=wadi+gaza%2Cwadi+besor&year_start=1800&year_end=2022&case_insensitive=true&corpus=en&smoothing=3] and the ngrams provided by M.Bitton 𐩣𐩫𐩧𐩨 Abo Yemen (𓃵) 13:50, 5 June 2025 (UTC)
• :::::::::::Different smoothing. With no smoothing, Wadi Besor is more common than Wadi Gaza in 2022, the most recent year available (see [https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=wadi+gaza%2Cwadi+besor&year_start=1800&year_end=2022&corpus=en&smoothing=0&case_insensitive=true this ngram]). Closetside (talk) 14:00, 5 June 2025 (UTC)
• ::::::::::::No point in discussing what hasn't been suggested as a candidate for a common name. As an aside, it's nice to see you finally supporting the "Wadi" appellation. M.Bitton (talk) 14:05, 5 June 2025 (UTC)
• :::::::::::::It's a variant of Besor. Some translate Nahal as Wadi in English. However, I'd still defer to the scholarly sources, for this is primarily a scholarly article about the stream. Closetside (talk) 14:11, 5 June 2025 (UTC)
• ::::::::::::Ok so what you're saying is that you're playing with the selectors so that you can false fully prove your point... 𐩣𐩫𐩧𐩨 Abo Yemen (𓃵) 14:05, 5 June 2025 (UTC)
• :::::::::::::0 smoothing is more accurate. N smoothing means take the rolling average of the past N entries. Point is, in 2022, Wadi Besor was more common than Wadi Gaza. Closetside (talk) 14:10, 5 June 2025 (UTC)
• ::::::::::::::Good luck bending the others (Google hits, Scholar).... 131 hits for "Wadi Besor". lol M.Bitton (talk) 14:14, 5 June 2025 (UTC)
• :::::::::::::::Variants are paramount. See WP:Search engine test#Foreign languages, non-Latin scripts, and old names. Closetside (talk) 14:19, 5 June 2025 (UTC)
• :{{outdent|12}} in 2022, Wadi Gaza was 0.0000002146% and Wadi Besor was 0.0000001585%. Wadi Gaza is clearly more 𐩣𐩫𐩧𐩨 Abo Yemen (𓃵) 14:12, 5 June 2025 (UTC)
• ::0 smoothing - report the raw data. N smoothing - report the rolling average of the current entry and the past N entries. Point is, in 2022, Wadi Besor was more common than Wadi Gaza. Closetside (talk) 14:15, 5 June 2025 (UTC)
• :::would be nice if you compared the numbers instead of looking at the graph that you've played with 𐩣𐩫𐩧𐩨 Abo Yemen (𓃵) 14:16, 5 June 2025 (UTC)
• ::::See the article on smoothing. My point stands. Closetside (talk) 14:18, 5 June 2025 (UTC)
• :::::Yeah this discussion ends here. If you've not willing to do basic math (i.e. read the numbers above), then its pointless to continue with this discussion 𐩣𐩫𐩧𐩨 Abo Yemen (𓃵) 14:21, 5 June 2025 (UTC)
• ::::::I told you what smoothing does and how 0 smoothing yields a raw plot; you ignored it. If you don't get it, continuing the discussion is pointless. Closetside (talk) 14:23, 5 June 2025 (UTC)

• {{A note}} regarding the words that combined with others to mean different things (such as "Gaza" and "Besor"): 1) they have been excluded in my previous search for that very reason. 2) they are not and cannot be the common name for this article, and therefore, there is no reason whatsoever to even mention them. M.Bitton (talk) 12:49, 5 June 2025 (UTC)
• :1) Every X for a term "the Besor X" etymologically stems from the Nahal Besor. If you disagree, find an X where "the Besor X" is a term and it is etymologically unrelated to the stream.
• :2) Variants are critical per WP:HITS. Closetside (talk) 12:56, 5 June 2025 (UTC)
• ::Already mentioned ("Besor" + farm, farmers, region, experiment, stage, culture, plain). Anyway, this is clearly a waste of time since neither "Gaza" nor "Besor" are candidates for the common name. M.Bitton (talk) 13:10, 5 June 2025 (UTC)
• :::Provide one source which shows even one term from the above the is unrelated etymologically to the stream. Closetside (talk) 13:15, 5 June 2025 (UTC)
• ::::Read and ignored the waste of time. Wadi Gaza is the common name, end of. M.Bitton (talk) 13:20, 5 June 2025 (UTC)
• :::::You can't even provide one source? If your claim was correct, providing one would be easy and one source is all you need. If not, your claim can be discarded as unproven and probably incorrect. I rest my case. Closetside (talk) 13:24, 5 June 2025 (UTC)
• The biblical phrasing Brook Besor is [https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=brook+besor%2Cwadi+gaza%2Cnahal+besor%2Cwadi+ghazzeh%2Cwadi+ghuzzeh%2Cwadi+ghazza&year_start=1800&year_end=2022&case_insensitive=true&corpus=en&smoothing=3 by far] the most common in the ngram corpus. There seems to be some misconceptions in this discussion tho, while Nahal Besor, Wadi Gaza, and Brook Besor are overlapping topics the names are not exactly equivalent as to what they denote. fiveby(zero) 14:38, 5 June 2025 (UTC)

Starting this section proactively, in lieu of in an edit summary, because I know how contentious this topic is.

The lead of this article referring to the "Negev region of Palestine and Israel" does not make sense. The Negev was a region of Mandatory Palestine, which is no longer a geopolitical entity. The Negev "is a desert and semidesert region of southern Israel." This is backed up with simple searches in reliable sources ("The Negev desert, or al-Naqab in Arabic, in the southern part of Israel has faced dramatic demographic shifts since Israel’s creation" [https://www.makan.org.uk/hub/glossary/al-naqab-the-negev/]) ("Until 1948, the Negev — or Naqab — was a region of Palestine" [https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20171017-explained-the-negev/]).

I'm updating the lead to reflect the Negev's current designation as a region of Israel. In any case, the Palestinian portion of the river is already mentioned as being "in the Gaza strip." PhotogenicScientist (talk) 14:05, 4 June 2025 (UTC)

:Thanks for noting that here, PhotogenicScientist, especially as it’s not easy stepping into a contentious space. I endorse the principle behind your edit as the most practical way of describing the location is in respect to current boundaries. The previous wording was ambiguous, but the new wording is too. It could be read as the Gaza Strip being part of Israel, and now Palestine isn't mentioned in the lead. As such I have changed the text to read {{xt|"...parts of a river system in the Gaza Strip in Palestine and the Negev region of Israel"}}. If that is too clunky, an alternative formulation would be {{xt|"...parts of a river system in the Gaza Strip and Negev region of Palestine and Israel respectively"}}.

:On a related but separate note, I have removed the map image that you added to the article. Unfortunately, it misses a couple of major archaeological sites and is therefore not good enough quality. Richard Nevell (talk) 18:28, 4 June 2025 (UTC)

::I'm fine with that new wording for the lead.

::As for the map - why let "perfect" be the enemy of "good?" As a reader, I really appreciated seeing this image on the Nahal Gerar page, since it showed how these three rivers run and combine, in addition to showing some major historical sites.

::If you have another map that provides those benefits plus what you're looking for, then by all means add it. But if not, having this image in the article is a net benefit. PhotogenicScientist (talk) 19:46, 4 June 2025 (UTC)

:::That's certainly a principle I'm in favour of, but it's not clear to the reader that the image is missing important information. In this case the map isn't so much "good" as "misleading", which is problematic. As the Nahal Gerar article has a different focus the omission of significant sites along a different watercourse to the subject of the article are less problematic, though I would still recommend it not be used there.

:::An alternative approach could be to adapt what is done at Blakhiya Byzantine cemetery#Discovery and excavation. It wouldn't highlight the watercourses in the same way, however. Richard Nevell (talk) 20:01, 4 June 2025 (UTC)

::::That's a fine map at the cemetary article - however, I don't know how to make one of those. If you do, and you'd like to make one for this article, then by all means.

::::However, in the meantime, the map I added is in no way "misleading." It never claimed to show ALL archeological sites along these rivers. Only some. Prodigiously few informational graphics made in the entirety of humanity can be said to be completely perfect and lacking in nothing... so that's a decidedly odd criticism to make in favor of removing the map entirely...

::::Would changing the caption to "Various Bronze and Early Iron Age archaeological sites along the Nahal Gerar, Nahal Be'er Sheva, Nahal Besor" make its inclusion better? PhotogenicScientist (talk) 20:09, 4 June 2025 (UTC)

:::::The caption didn't say that only 'some' sites were included, so without that context it would be entirely reasonable for a reader to conclude that the "Bronze and Early Iron Age archaeological sites along the Nahal Gerar, Nahal Be'er Sheva, Nahal Besor" included are comprehensive.

:::::If the image is to be included, its limitations need to be made clear to the reader.

:::::I can have a go at setting up the interactive map later in the week. I may experiment with just a couple of points to begin with rather than the whole lot so we can see if it's a workable format, and post it on the talk page rather than in the article. Richard Nevell (talk) 20:38, 4 June 2025 (UTC)

Which of the sites that aren't on there are considered major, and by whom? What should we look for in a map that shows them? MilesVorkosigan (talk) 19:57, 4 June 2025 (UTC)

:Tell es-Sakan and Taur Ikhbeineh. Richard Nevell (talk) 20:07, 4 June 2025 (UTC)

::Ah, got it. Look, you can just say 'the ones in Gaza', that's fine. I don't see any point in trying to exclude Palestinians from the article.

::I think the map from the sediment article has all the streams labeled just as well as this map and (IIRC) doesn't show any archeological sites. That way we wouldn't to worry about any of them missing. I'll try to find it again and see if I can figure out how to upload images. MilesVorkosigan (talk) 21:26, 4 June 2025 (UTC)

:::I look forward to seeing that map as it sounds suitable. Richard Nevell (talk) 21:40, 4 June 2025 (UTC)

::::I am not certain what the licensing status of the image is, I'll have to read WP:Image and try to figure it out.

::::In the meantime, [https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Nahal-Besor-catchment-and-the-location-of-three-headwater-sub-catchments-providing-data_fig1_237516593 this is the map] I was thinking of. I had forgotten, [https://www.researchgate.net/publication/237516593_Differentiated_suspended_sediment_transport_in_headwater_basins_of_the_Besor_catchment_northern_Negev the study it's from] was published by the Israel Journal of Earth Science. MilesVorkosigan (talk) 22:11, 4 June 2025 (UTC)