Talk:Declaration of war#Discussion

I've combed English-language sources on the internet and could not find a quote or government document where the Cameroon government declared war on the Ambazonia groups, only news sources equating certain statements to a declaration of war. Should be verified with French-language sources or removed from the list. 76.64.122.99 (talk) 07:33, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

Wasn't there a state of war between the countries? They fought several times and there was at least one declaration of war by India. Yes, I would also like to raise the issue of the Indo-Chinese conflict.Thank you for your attention Konstantinlerlove (talk) 05:00, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

:According to this page for the Indo-Pakistani war, "statements released by both nations the next day confirmed the 'existence of a state of war between the two countries', although neither government formally issued a declaration of war." For the Sino-Indian war, "neither side declared war, used their air force, or fully broke off diplomatic relations, but the conflict is commonly referred to as a war." Some Hecking Nerd (talk) 05:50, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

::@Some Hecking Nerd Thank for answer to the question about the Sino-Indian conflict, but I can't agree about the Indo-Pakistani one. You didn't specify which war you mean out of the three, and besides, there are more in this article There are also more dubious examples - for example, the Russian-Georgian and Russian-Ukrainian wars were undeclared. Nevertheless, they are indicated. Thank you for your attention and understanding. Konstantinlerlove (talk) 08:37, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

:::The Georgian government formally declared itself to be in a state of war during the Russo-Georgian War.XavierGreen (talk) 14:33, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

Since the belligerents of Russo-Ukrainian war didn't declare war, nor had declared state of war officialy, put it in the table of war declarations since 1945 is misinformation. Ukraine only had introduced martial law since Feb 24,2022/ 46.211.98.148 (talk) 16:15, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

{{User:ClueBot III/DoNotArchiveUntil|1740164494}}

There has been previous discussions regarding whether the Israel–Hamas war & the Israeli invasion of Lebanon (2024–present) should be included in this article. The main question regarding this is whether or not this article covers only sovereign states (which Hamas & Hezbollah are not), or whether it covers non-sovereign states/political entities/paramilitaries. The lead of the article is vague in this distinction, but does specifically call out {{tq|national government}}. So, should both events be included or excluded?

• Option 1 – Yes, both events should be included as this article should cover sovereign and non-sovereign state declarations of war.
• Option 2 – No, both events should be excluded as this article should only cover sovereign state declarations of war and not included political entities/paramilitary-related declarations of war.
• Option 3 – Include one but not the other (Specify which is included and which is excluded).

The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 18:46, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Background

• [https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/08/middleeast/israel-gaza-attack-hostages-response-intl-hnk/ On October 8, 2023], Israel declared war on Hamas, the de facto controller (politically & paramilitarily) of the Gaza Strip. “{{tq|Israel has formally declared war on Hamas, setting the stage for a major military operation in Gaza as fighting continues to rage on Israeli soil.}}”
• [https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-09-19/ty-article-live/netanyahu-slams-misguided-starmer-accuses-u-k-of-sending-mixed-messages/00000192-07f9-d543-ab9f-2ffbf5790000 On September 19, 2024], Hezbollah declared war on Israel. “{{tq|Hezbollah Chief Nasrallah: Israel Crossed All Red Lines, This Is a Declaration of War.}}”

• Option 1 – I believe the scope of this article should declarations of war, even if one or more than one of the entities is not a fully recognized sovereign state. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 18:46, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
• :There's an argument for that, sure. But it does get tricky as others point out with examples like the US war with Al Qaeda, etc. I think "Existence of a state of war" seems to be a decent catchall when it's a nation-state vs. an entity that is not a nation-state. Do you not agree? Not logged in 2 (talk) 03:33, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
• ::The United States never declared war on (or recognized a state of war with) Al Qaeda, however if it had, then such a declaration would be included within the scope of the page. See my comments below. Non-state entities can be recognized as legal belligerents under international law accordingly a declaration against a non-state entity would accord that entity the same rights as a belligerent party (aka geneva convention protections) as it would receive if it were a soveriegn state. XavierGreen (talk) 21:10, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
• :::You need to give a citation for that as that is the whole essence of the discussion. To the best of my knowledge no such provision exists for a declaration of war against a non-state entity. Marlarkey (talk) 12:53, 26 January 2025 (UTC)
• Option 3 Israel Only sovereign states may wage war under international law. Hezbollah not only fails that criteria, it is widely classified as a criminal organization. We might as well list declarations of war issued by mafia families. -Ad Orientem (talk) 20:00, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

::{{ping|Ad Orientem}} Could you specify which of the two is included or excluded? By your wording, I am presuming that you mean include Israel–Hamas war & exclude Israeli invasion of Lebanon (2024–present), but I wanted to have you clarify what you mean exactly by "Option 3 Israel". The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 20:06, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

:::Hezbollah is excluded. Non-sovereign organized crime entities cannot declare war. -Ad Orientem (talk) 20:12, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

::::That also should mean that the Second Western Saharan War should also be excluded as SADR is also a non-sovereign entity Marlarkey (talk) 13:10, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

:::::That is not the subject of this discussion. But FWIW I agree with you. -Ad Orientem (talk) 18:29, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

• Option 2 You know my view already, you got me sanctioned for enacting option 1 and then reversed it and now you're here asking for opinions on my edit that you overruled. The opening statement of the article says 'A declaration of war is a formal act by which one state announces existing or impending war activity against another'. Neither Hamas nor Hezbollah are nation states so neither meet the criteria. Israel has not declared war on Lebanon, they declared war on Hezbollah and invaded Lebanon to take action against Hezbollah, which is not a nation state. Israel did not declare war on Gaza, it declared war on Hamas, which is not a nation state. Otherwise this page would have to include the war on poverty, the war on drugs, the war on terror, the war on crime. Marlarkey (talk) 20:45, 17 January 2025 (UTC) Additional info: note that, for example, none of the US invasions of Iraq or Afghanistan, nor the Argentine invasion of the Falkland Islands are listed, as none of these involved a declaration of war Marlarkey (talk) 20:55, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
• :I'm only here after I was notified after a 'Feedback request'. On your additional info: Shouldn't the US's declaration of War on Terror be included? The events following it were of massive significance and was, in effect, a declaration of war against Afghanistan and Iraq. It should be included in the 'Other unique cases' section, imo.
• :FropFrop (talk) 00:44, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
• ::Well either the entries in discussion should be removed... or the page should be expanded to encompass every conflict in which one side or other has referred to it as 'war'. The latter is not the purpose of the article imo. There are many other places where list of conflicts are recorded. The purpose of this page is to list the specific formal declaration of war as understand under international law. Marlarkey (talk) 01:16, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
• :::If folks wish to narrow the scope of the article {{tq|to list the specific formal declaration of war as understand under international law}}, then I think the other content also ought to be removed. At the moment, the article covers a much broader scope. I think there's a lot of value in keeping the scope as it is currently, but that's up to you folks.
• :::As it stands though, I don't see why the war between Israel and Hamas would be out of place.
• :::FropFrop (talk) 05:33, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
• ::::There are other pages that list conflicts for example List of modern conflicts in the Middle East. That's a legit place for the conflict to be listed - and it is listed on that page. THIS article is about declarations of war. That's a more specific and limited scope, noting the list of formal declarations of war between nation states. Otherwise it just duplicates info listed on other articles. Marlarkey (talk) 13:26, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

• Option 3 I think vetting entries on whether or not both parties are fully recognised as states in the UN ignores the more commonly understood meaning of the statement, that being closer to (imo) "when one or more a parties announce existing or impending war activity against another." Hamas may be a political party in Gaza, but a war certainly is/was taking place. The article already mentions the War in Ukraine, which officially isn't a war according to Russia. The article also includes examples from antiquity, which often don't fit into modern definitions of states. I don't think including the war between Israel and Hezbollah makes sense as neither party (at least as far as I'm aware) really declared war (outside of accusing the other of having effectively declared war). So, of the three given options, I'd say that Option 3 makes the most sense and is consistent with content already in the article.

:FropFrop (talk) 00:41, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

::{{ping|FropFrop}} Could you clarify which of the two is included or excluded? By your wording, I am presuming that you mean include Israel–Hamas war & exclude Israeli invasion of Lebanon (2024–present), but I wanted to have you clarify what you mean exactly with your Option 3 choice. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 01:00, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

:::Oops, yes to including the Israel–Hamas war & no to including Israeli invasion of Lebanon (2024–present).

:::FropFrop (talk) 05:28, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

::::Additional info:

::::Israel took against Hamas (a non-sovereign entity) by invading Gaza (an entity of disputed geopolitical status but tending towards sovereignty). That's a mirror of the situation with Hezbollah and Lebanon. Both situations are similar.

::::HOWEVER, the citations given are NOT evidence of a declaration of war BY ISRAEL on either Hezbollah or Lebanon. The citation is a Hezbollah official saying that Israel's action constitutes a declaration of war. No citation is given evidencing that Israel made a declaration, or that Hezbollah made a declaration on Israel.

::::So this item "Israel-Hezbollah war" fails the citation test.

::::Marlarkey (talk) 13:23, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

:Option 3 - International law states that a state can in fact declare war against a non-recognized state or entity. That non-recognized state or entity receives certain rights under the laws or war as a belligerent power. Accordingly, declarations of war (and declarations of states of war) should be included for all instances of a state (whether recognized or not) declaring war against any belligerent party regardless of whether that party is a state or not. As such, Israel's declaration of war as to Hamas and Egypt's declaration of a state of war as to ISIS should both be included, but Hezobollah's declaration should not.21:08, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

::Think you need to give a citation for that assertion that a state can declare war against a non-state entity. That is the whole essence of this discussion so you need to give a citation for that. Marlarkey (talk) 12:48, 26 January 2025 (UTC)

Given that Iranian officials have stated they're taking Israel's strikes as a declaration of war as they should, will the conflict be included in the list?179.6.16.84 (talk) 10:53, 15 June 2025 (UTC)

:i would wait Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Israel – Iran war to close Braganza (talk) 08:10, 16 June 2025 (UTC)

::{{ping|FropFrop|WeatherWriter|Marlarkey}} maybe as another "other" case? Braganza (talk) 16:48, 17 June 2025 (UTC)

::Seeing as the deletion debate has ended, and it has kept the name "Iran-Israel War", I think it should now be put on. Either as another name on the table or under the "Other Unique Cases" part. 217.74.150.147 (talk) 11:32, 18 June 2025 (UTC)