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Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ahmed Mater

=[[:Ahmed Mater]]=

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:{{la|1=Ahmed Mater}} – (View AfDView log | edits since nomination)

:({{Find sources AFD|title=Ahmed Mater}})

Mostly a violation of WP:NOPROMO and questionable whether WP:SUSTAINED notability is backed up with WP:RS. Amigao (talk) 21:32, 4 May 2025 (UTC)

  • Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Artists, Photography, and Saudi Arabia. Spiderone(Talk to Spider) 22:30, 4 May 2025 (UTC)
  • Comment - this is a situation where it looks like COI or possible UPE has created a highly promotional article on a notable artist. They meet criteria #4 of WP:NARTIST based on the museum collections they are in. However, he is not actually in all of the collections that are in the article, but enough, at least I think, to establish notability. Other collection references simply point to a bio or a press release about a show, and not to the actual collection source with the acquisition information and data. So it seems there is promo-puffery going on. I'm thinking that this may very well be a case where either a strong pruning back to a stub is necessary or a WP:TNT d*eletion would be in order. I'd like to hear from others in the visual arts to discuss before logging an !vote. Netherzone (talk) 23:47, 4 May 2025 (UTC)

::Hi {{u|Netherzone}} I have sorted through the collection claims. Please see Talk:Ahmed Mater#draft for collections section. No doubt the artist is notable. The article needs pruning. Hope to get back to it later this week. I did mark the some of the primary sources as "better source needed". More to do there too. --WomenArtistUpdates (talk) 01:20, 6 May 2025 (UTC)

::Thank you for raising your concerns. I’d like to offer some clarity and context, especially as the person who worked on earlier versions of the article. I understand that some parts of the previous version may have lacked perfect encyclopedic tone, and I fully accept responsibility for that. My intention, however, was not promotional. It was to document the life and practice of an artist I have studied closely for many years, and whose contributions to contemporary Arab and global art deserve careful contextualization.

::I recognize now that the article may have fallen short of Wikipedia’s standards in tone or formatting, but the accusation of “promotional puffery” feels overly harsh. The references used were drawn from reputable museum archives, institutional press materials, and critical journalism—all of which are standard sources for artist biographies. If certain citations were weak, I would have welcomed collaborative improvement rather than wholesale deletion of verified content.

::At this point, I am fully open to the suggestion of starting again from a properly sourced stub, especially since the current version is now reduced to little more than a name, birth date, and a list of collections—stripped of any real insight into the artist’s intellectual evolution, cultural impact, or thematic concerns. Such a skeletal version does not serve researchers, students, or even general readers trying to understand Ahmed Mater’s work or place in contemporary art.

::An artist is not just a list of acquisitions. They are shaped by personal, social, and geographic histories—and they in turn shape the cultural fabric around them. This is how artists like Damien Hirst oe others , for example, are presented on Wikipedia—with attention to life story, artistic process, influence, and institutional recognition, all backed by sources. I believe Ahmed Mater deserves the same.

::There is no shortage of credible English- and Arabic-language sources on this artist. What I ask is not to protect flawed content, but to collaboratively rebuild it in line with Wikipedia standards, and with respect for regional knowledge, history, and context.

::––– ~~~~ Arif11 (talk) 13:06, 8 May 2025 (UTC) — Note to closing admin: Arif11 (talk • contribs) is the creator of the page that is the subject of this AfD.

  • Comment oh, this is a mess...embedded links and conflation of exhibitions and collections. I think it can be pruned into an acceptable article, but need to return to it later in the week. --WomenArtistUpdates (talk) 00:46, 5 May 2025 (UTC)
  • :I started to do a little pruning. It may be useful to trim back to a short article or stub to get to the heart of the key biographic and career events. There is a lot of fluff, puffery and original research/synthesis that is not supported by RS. But I think it can be saved. Netherzone (talk) 02:25, 6 May 2025 (UTC)
  • ::I completely understand the concern about embedded links, conflation between exhibitions and collections, and the need to distinguish clearly between permanent holdings and temporary shows. This is an important distinction, and I am happy to assist in clarifying and verifying these entries. Any original research or undue synthesis should be removed, and I agree that the use of reliable secondary sources is non-negotiable.
  • ::While I accept that some previous content may have included unnecessary detail or tone inconsistencies, I would like to emphasize that the intent was not promotional but documentary—drawing from available references in both Arabic and English. My priority is to help build an accurate, well-sourced biography that meets Wikipedia’s standards and reflects the trajectory of a significant cultural figure.
  • ::If trimming the article back to a stub is the best path forward, I fully support that—as long as the foundation remains strong and allows for thoughtful rebuilding. Thank you again for your efforts and fairness. Arif11 (talk) 13:11, 8 May 2025 (UTC)
  • Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Medicine-related deletion discussions. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 01:29, 5 May 2025 (UTC)
  • Keep and clean up. He meets WP:NARTIST. Netherzone (talk) 02:37, 6 May 2025 (UTC)
  • :Request to Restore the 2004 Image in the Infobox:
  • :https://ar.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D9%85%D9%84%D9%81:AHMED_MATER_SAUDIARABIA_2004.jpg
  • :I would like to request that the image titled File:AHMED_MATER_SAUDIARABIA_2004.jpg be reconsidered for inclusion in the infobox of Ahmed Mater’s article. This image, taken in 2004, is not merely an “early” or “dated” photograph—it holds strong cultural and historical relevance.
  • :As someone who has previously conducted academic research on Ahmed Mater’s early life and practice, I view this image as uniquely significant. It shows the artist in his home village in the Asir region, wearing a traditional floral headpiece—a longstanding custom among men in southern Saudi Arabia. This image reflects a deep sense of regional identity and heritage, which continues to echo across much of his conceptual work. In many ways, it embodies the intimate relationship between personal narrative and artistic expression in his career.
  • :The more recent image I added—which shows Mater preparing his Magnetism installation—is important for illustrating the technical and symbolic dimensions of his mature practice. I believe both images serve distinct documentary purposes: the older one as a visual record of his cultural and geographic roots; the newer one as evidence of his internationally recognized conceptual output.
  • :Therefore, I respectfully suggest that the 2004 image be restored to the infobox (as it encapsulates identity and memory), while the recent one could appear in a new section or gallery on his artistic works. Over time, I also plan to contribute more images related to specific works in accordance with Wikipedia’s guidelines.
  • :This request is not about aesthetics or preference—it is about preserving cultural memory and contextual continuity in the visual documentation of one of the Arab world’s most significant contemporary artists.
  • :––– ~~~~ Arif11 (talk) 14:12, 8 May 2025 (UTC)

:Keep and clean up. Does appear to meet WP:NARTIST. I'm willing to help out with the clean up as well. Se7enNationArmy2024 (talk) 16:02, 6 May 2025 (UTC)

:Keep The artist is notable and the fluff has been removed. --WomenArtistUpdates (talk) 20:59, 6 May 2025 (UTC)

::*{{u|Netherzone}} and {{u|Se7enNationArmy2024}} please take a look at the career section to see if it should be renamed or edited. Thanks. --WomenArtistUpdates (talk) 20:59, 6 May 2025 (UTC)

::*:Thanks for the ping. When I find the time in the next few days, I'll go thru the career section to check the text against the sources themselves (because I found quite a lot of OR and puffery that wasn't in the association source at all). Let me know if you have already done so, @WomenArtistUpdates for that section, and if not I'll tackle that. Netherzone (talk) 21:15, 6 May 2025 (UTC)

::::{{u|Netherzone}}, Yes please review career section against sources if you can. It does have a tinge of malarkey to it. I ran out of gas after the exhibitions and collections review. Thanks! --WomenArtistUpdates (talk) 23:14, 6 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::Done! And I did find a lot of malarky that was not in the sources. Netherzone (talk) 01:09, 7 May 2025 (UTC)

::*:It look so much cleaner now after what you've done! I am leaning towards changing the section name slightly to reflect that it is his art career as opposed to being generalized as it is currently. He's described several times in sources as physician-turned-artist so creating that distinction in the section title would provide added clarity. Se7enNationArmy2024 (talk) 22:00, 6 May 2025 (UTC)

::*::My apologies. I forgot to include a ping. @WomenArtistUpdates. Se7enNationArmy2024 (talk) 22:30, 6 May 2025 (UTC)

  • Keep: I can clearly see that this Wikipedia article on Mater provides comprehensive information about his life, career, and works and also given the depth of coverage and the presence of reliable and independent sources. So, Ahmed Mater's Wikipedia article is considered notable and also noticed that one ref is generated through AI. Fade258 (talk) 00:54, 7 May 2025 (UTC)
  • :Which ref is generated through AI? Netherzone (talk) 01:08, 7 May 2025 (UTC)
  • ::Reference 19 which is in orange colour, well I am not 100% sure whether the reference is AI generated or not but when I move the cruser on that reference that shows AI generated article. Fade258 (talk) 02:03, 7 May 2025 (UTC)
  • :::Hi, I see it as a green link with an embedded orange over NPR that says it's AI slop upon rolling over the link. I think this is a script error of some sort. Because when I read the source itself, it's an actual transcript from a recorded six minute segment from National Public Radio. So I think that source is OK to keep in the article. Netherzone (talk) 02:41, 7 May 2025 (UTC)
  • ::::Yes, I think that may be the script error and also I have reviewed the information mentioned in that reference and found that have been written in well format and neutral point of view. Thank You for addressing this. Fade258 (talk) 03:07, 7 May 2025 (UTC)