Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Außenarbeitslager Gerdauen

:{{la|Außenarbeitslager Gerdauen}} – (View AfDView log{{int:dot-separator}} [https://tools.wmflabs.org/jackbot/snottywong/cgi-bin/votecounter.cgi?page=Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Au%C3%9Fenarbeitslager_Gerdauen Stats])

:({{Find sources AFD|Außenarbeitslager Gerdauen}})

Short version: fails the Wikipedia:Verifiability test.

Long version:

This is a obviously a sensitive topic, and must be treated very carefully. I hope I am doing that here.

I note that this article has existed in articlespace since [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Au%C3%9Fenarbeitslager_Gerdauen&oldid=214657909 24 May 2008] and has also been [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Au%C3%9Fenarbeitslager_Gerdauen&oldid=214658010 tagged as unreferenced] on the same day it was created.

I [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Au%C3%9Fenarbeitslager_Gerdauen&oldid=775995370 declined] the speedy deletion on technicalities. (Maybe I should have deleted it then and avoided more drama?)

I would argue that this article fails the Wikipedia:Verifiability test. A google search for "Außenarbeitslager Gerdauen" gives only mirrors of the Wikipedia article. Searches for its previous names do not identify anything that would be considered as reliable sources.

I considered whether this article should be WP:REDIRECT-ed to Stutthof concentration camp or Stutthof sub-camps or to the regions in Poland or the Kaliningrad Oblast where the concentration camp was apparently located. Shirt58 (talk) 10:49, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

:Note: This debate has been included in the list of History-related deletion discussions. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 18:06, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

:Note: This debate has been included in the list of Military-related deletion discussions. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 18:06, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

:Note: This debate has been included in the list of Judaism-related deletion discussions. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 18:06, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

:Note: This debate has been included in the list of Germany-related deletion discussions. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 18:06, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

:Note: This debate has been included in the list of Poland-related deletion discussions. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 18:06, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

Note There is some mention of this topic in google books but in German maybe it does exist under English name--Shrike (talk) 18:21, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

• Delete Fails WP:V. We don't even know if this is real. This should have been speedied. Chris Troutman (talk) 18:22, 18 April 2017 (UTC)
• Delete, the stub and redirect name; stub is not notable as presented for stand alone. I see it is mentioned in a sub-camp section, which is cited (although not RS cited), in the main article of Stutthof concentration camp; that should be sufficient. Kierzek (talk) 18:34, 18 April 2017 (UTC)
• Redirect to Stutthof main article section on sub-camps Clearly existed according to these history books on Stutthof: [https://books.google.com/books?id=FAAiAQAAIAAJ&q=Au%C3%9Fenarbeitslager+Gerdauen&dq=Au%C3%9Fenarbeitslager+Gerdauen&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi1uI6b0q7TAhWpxVQKHS4xCuEQ6AEINDAD Polish book published by Stutthof camp museum] and German [https://books.google.com/books?id=GmUsAQAAMAAJ&q=Au%C3%9Fenarbeitslager+Gerdauen&dq=Au%C3%9Fenarbeitslager+Gerdauen&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi1uI6b0q7TAhWpxVQKHS4xCuEQ6AEIKTAB book about concentration camps], and there are more results when the German sharp s is changed to "ss" for "Aussenarbeitslager Gerdauen," but I don't think there is enough information for a stand-alone article that would not be a stub. Kges1901 (talk) 18:37, 18 April 2017 (UTC)
• Redirect to the main Stutthof article where it is already mentioned Seasider91 (talk) 19:31, 18 April 2017 (UTC)
• Delete without redirecting unless the other thirty-nine subcamps are redirects.--Jim in Georgia Contribs Talk 03:00, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
• Keep The lack of size of an article is no reason to delete. So far the discussion already disproved the allegation that it fails WP:V. While there seem to be no over abundance of regular internet sources there are easy to find book sources. I found [https://books.google.de/books?id=IMfmBnJrAwAC&pg=PP16&lpg=PP16&dq=KZ+Stutthof+gerdauen&source=bl&ots=QcUYWqYX99&sig=fJ6Lyc2Z56FQZ_3Lj13SrRcZGyM&hl=de&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=KZ%20Stutthof%20gerdauen&f=false Endzeit in Ostpreussen. Ein beschwiegenes Kapitel des Holocaust] and [https://books.google.de/books?id=k45rAgAAQBAJ&pg=PT196&lpg=PT196&dq=KZ+Stutthof+gerdauen&source=bl&ots=6CLqgpzDSi&sig=RzavhlrGhRttU4Cu970R-ynf6xk&hl=de&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=KZ%20Stutthof%20gerdauen&f=false Die Todesmärsche 1944/45: Das letzte Kapitel des nationalsozialistischen] before even reading the AfD page. It seems we are also missing an article on inmate Zofia Rapp-Kochańska Agathoclea (talk) 18:42, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
• WeakStrong keep - as for V and RS, try searching Gerdauen with other words, such as arbeitslager, aussenlager, lager, work camp, etc. I'm working on expansion and sourcing, what I'm finding isn't really in depth about this location in particular, but the level of significance is substantial. Smmurphy^(Talk) 17:12, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
• Just a note, I don't have easy access to [https://www.ushmm.org/research/publications/encyclopedia-camps-ghettos The United States Holocaust Memorial Museum Encyclopedia of Camps and Ghettos], but the camp seems to be covered in depth in [https://www.ushmm.org/m/pdfs/20090130-ENCY_vol1_Places_Index.pdf Volume 1] (I'm not sure how many volumes are published, but it is intended to be a seven volume work). Smmurphy^(Talk) 18:26, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
• I've changed the word, weak from my !vote to strong. A second and possibly third source with in-depth coverage are:
• Wolfgang Benz, and Barbara Distel (Editors). [https://books.google.com/books?id=lgpnAAAAMAAJ&dq=Der+Ort+des+Terrors.+Geschichte+der+nationalsozialistischen+Konzentrationslager+volume+6&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=zeleznodoroznyj Der Ort des Terrors. Geschichte der nationalsozialistischen Konzentrationslager Band 6: Natzweiler, Groß-Rosen, Stutthof]. CH Beck, 2007 p609
• Chirurg, Riva. "Bridge of Hope, Bridge of Sorrow." Berkeley: Judah L. Magnes Museum (1994). p151-159
• Based on the entry in the index, Benz's entry is shorter than the Holocaust Memorial Museum Encyclopedia entry, but both of these have an full entry for the camp. Chirurg is an autobiography of a prisoner and survivor which has a chapter titled, "From Gerdauen to Stutthof". I'm not currently located at a liberal arts university, and I do not have access to any of these, but most US or German Liberal Arts universities have one or both. To me, this is pretty clear coverage by multiple independent NPOV scholarly sources. Smmurphy^(Talk) 15:32, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
• If not kept, Merge (or redirect) per Seasider91. The main article lists 38 subcamps, spread over a large area. These were apparently labour camps, not death camps, though mortality was high. Peterkingiron (talk) 13:44, 22 April 2017 (UTC)
• Redirect to the main article, specifically to Stutthof sub-camps; appears to have existed for a relatively short period of time (Sept 1944 to Jan 1945), if my reading of this material is right: [https://books.google.com/books?id=zW3zAAAAMAAJ&q=Gerdauen+lager&dq=Gerdauen+lager&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj52MSpp7zTAhXCrlQKHfBDA5AQ6AEISDAF link]. Should in-depth sources be located, can be restored to a stand-alone article. K.e.coffman (talk) 05:02, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

• Keep per recent article improvements; an acceptable stub at this point, with potential for expansion. K.e.coffman (talk) 05:00, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
• Merge and redirect to Stutthof_concentration_camp#Stutthof_sub-camps. The current stub has maybe two sentences of independent content. No prejudice for recreation, but for now it would be more useful to expand the section on subcamps in the main article, IMHO.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 07:17, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

{{clear}}

:The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.