Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Hardbag

:{{la|Hardbag}} ([{{fullurl:Hardbag|wpReason={{urlencode: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Hardbag}}&action=delete}} delete]) – (View AfD)(View log)

No references. Searching for any of the supposed "classic examples" along with "hardbag" receives very few Google hits, none of which approach reliable sources. PROD was removed with term has enough usage to warrant inclusion, including making The Oxford Dictionary of New Words (see also: http://news.google.com/archivesearch?q=%22Hardbag%22&btnG=Search+Archives&ned=us&hl=en&scoring=a); however, I don't think that appearing in the Oxford Dictionary of New Words means there's enough information to have an article on it (even if it is true, I have no idea - googling yielded nothing) and the Google News link has only about 50% actually related to this genre and they just mention it in passing. Wickethewok (talk) 18:47, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

• Keep - not the most widely used term, but there are sufficient sources to establish the notability of it as a sub-genre. The Oxford dictionary reference reads "A related term is hardbag, recorded since the mid nineties, which denotes a

popular electronic dance music derived from techno and incorporating elements of..." which is where the free snippet ends. This doesn't establish notability by itself, but does show the term is well enough defined to enter into a respectable dictionary. You are also right that the news search returns mostly passing mentions. This was intended to such that the term is used by reputable sources - usually without explicitly defining it (which means they expect the reader to know what it means, again showing it is reasonably well-known term in certain circles.)

Sources to establish notability include:

;Books with some info

• [http://books.google.com/books?id=CiW3aOptLW4C&q=%22hardbag%22&dq=%22hardbag%22 rave Culture]
• [http://books.google.com/books?id=tGaRJiXe74UC&pg=RA1-PA1376&dq=%22hardbag%22 Generation Ecstacy]
• The Guinness encyclopedia of popular music (no free preview online)
• House: the rough guide‎ (no free preview online)

;Newspaper articles

• ''[http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/a-million-bumpin-jams-1322459.html The Independent] - a bit of history

;Other

• Used by Allmusic: [http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=11:jvfpxq8gldhe][http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=10:hvftxqrjldde]

Now, I would say to merge it with the very closely related "Handbag" genre, but that genre doesn't appear to have a page. --ThaddeusB (talk) 19:16, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

• Weakest of weak keeps - Thaddeus beat me to it - I was going to suggest a Merge to Handbag House but that doesn't appear to exist! If you look at a definitive source such as Simon Reynolds' Generation Ecstasy, Hardbag is referenced only briefly as a subgenre of Handbag [http://books.google.com/books?id=tGaRJiXe74UC&pg=RA1-PA1376&lpg=RA1-PA1376&dq=Hardbag+handbag+genre&source=bl&ots=NUU7h6olv7&sig=mSCFYs_d2YJ3BgSKIlew022w9wE&hl=en&ei=MGVnSo_jFaKhjAfMntyfAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7 (here)]. Practically every other reference to it is based on [http://www.discogs.com/Various-Enter-The-Hardbag/release/1354110 the existence of this album], and there appear to be very few reliable sources which actually discuss the genre itself. Still, it verifiably exists, and rather than merge it to the next best target (Styles of house music), it might be best to try and improve it with a few sources. Black Kite 19:36, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
• Edit - Handbag house does exist, under the American name Diva house. There's not much there, though I've created a redirect. Black Kite 19:37, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
• There is also an article for Hard_NRG, which might be another candidate for merger. That;s something probably best handled post AFD. Also... "Diva House"? Who the hell calls it "Diva House"? Artw (talk) 23:08, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
• Perhaps, since there is relatively little data on both, that "hardbag house" should share a page with "diva house"/"handbag house"? Even given all of the links above, there's barely enough for a dic-def sized article, as most of them only mention the genre in passing. Wickethewok (talk) 21:00, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
• keep - needs some sources of course, I've added the rescue tag to help with that, but yes, it is an actual genre of music. Artw (talk) 22:12, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

• Merge to Diva house. I found the same sources, and there's just not enough in them to make a stand-alone encyclopedia article out of, as Wickethewok says. Fences&Windows 18:36, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
• My main concern with that is that I'm not completely convinced that Handbag as described by Diva House is the same as Hardbag as described by this article. Artw (talk) 21:15, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

:::Really, why? Because this article in the Independent describes Handbag house much as does the Diva House article: "Handbag house is often associated with catchy and commercial dance tunes featuring female vocals. Its accessibility and uplifting snare drum crescendos makes it popular both on the mainstream scene and on the glamorous, dressy, gay scene."[http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/i-cant-dance-to-that-music-youre-playing-1250432.html]. Fences&Windows 02:56, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

:::: It seems to focus on an American version of Handbag, with particular reference to vocals, which very nearly matches Handbag but seems just slightly different. You'll note that Hardbag is frequently described as being vocal free. TBH It's not a genre of music that I am an expert in, so I could be wrong on this. Artw (talk) 23:22, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

• Keep. At this time, the article includes numerous sources and is well written. It seems like the article was tagged for deletion prior to the addition of the sources. --Pink Bull (talk) 03:10, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

:The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.