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Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Heavy Snowfall of Late 2010 in the United Kingdom

:The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. After two weeks of listing, there is no consensus that the weather event is "routine news". Delete !voters validly point to the frequency of such events; keep !voters validly point to the depth of news coverage and severity and impact of the weather. WP:NOTNEWS and WP:EVENT are always difficult policies and guidelines to apply, especially during or just after the event concerned. In this AfD, there is nowhere near a consensus that NOTNEWS and WP:EVENT should be applied in such a way as to delete this article. This is the kind of AfD that could be re-visited a few months down the track when the questions of enduring notability and impact can be better answered. Mkativerata (talk) 05:18, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

=[[Heavy Snowfall of Late 2010 in the United Kingdom]]=

:{{la|Heavy Snowfall of Late 2010 in the United Kingdom}} – (View AfDView log){{•}} {{plainlink|1=http://toolserver.org/~betacommand/reports/afd/{{urlencode:Heavy Snowfall of Late 2010 in the United Kingdom}}.html|2=Afd statistics}}

:({{Find sources|Heavy Snowfall of Late 2010 in the United Kingdom}})

Title says it all; clearly a page on a minor weather event. Violates the WP:NOT#NEWS Policy and the WP:Notability (events) guideline. Deprodded. Abductive (reasoning) 16:19, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

:*WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS. Also, did this snowfall cause all London buses to stop service, and close 4,500 schools across the United Kingdom? Did it cause over £1 billion in economic damage? Abductive (reasoning) 22:12, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

::Maybe not those specifically, but it had pretty much stopped all trains in the London and South East area not to mention the[http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-11898712 7,500 school closures.] As for the economic damages, we can't work that one out untill it's over to count the costs. The C of E. God Save The Queen! (talk) 15:15, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

::Was the £1 billion comment a joke? Its been reported that damage was US $2 billion per day.[http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/04/world/europe/04europe.html?src=twrhp] (see bottom portion of NY Times article).--Milowent • talkblp-r 06:27, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

  • Keep: Certainly not a minor weather event if you live in the UK. Sure it needs expansion, but not deletion. ConnorJack (talk) 21:53, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

:*Article creator. Nobody died = minor. There's nothing to expand, as nothing much happened. Abductive (reasoning) 22:12, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

::*So Wikipedia is now only a place to maintain death tolls, I think not. A lot has happened. 11:41, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

:::*Maybe you're happy now. People have died. Major event yet? ConnorJack (talk) 17:33, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

  • Keep It's notable in the sense that it's rare for the UK to experience snowfall on this scale so early on in the season, and it certainly has the potential to become more notable depending on how it plays itself out. The article will need some attention, but I don't think I want to do it myself. I worked on last year's and it kind of takes your life over. Also it's getting a lot of airtime. TheRetroGuy (talk) 23:16, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

:*My nomination does not rely on a lack of notability argument. It relies on a policy that Wikipedia is not a news source. Your opinion should be disregarded by the closing admin. Abductive (reasoning) 01:33, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

:: Who are you to decide whether or not that editor's opinions are valid or not? The C of E. God Save The Queen! (talk) 08:21, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

:::Precisely. I think it is rather disingenuous of you to say one thing in your opening statement, then to claim you didn't actually say it, and to argue it has no relevance. I read your nomination as making two points; a) that Wikipedia is not a news service, and b) that the event lacks notability. Others will probably read it likewise so there is merit in both arguments. TheRetroGuy (talk) 12:20, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

::::[http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/rely "Rely".] Abductive (reasoning) 12:36, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

:::::And besides that otherc**pexists that you linked to is neither a policy or a guideline but mearly an essay which are not valid reasons for deletion The C of E. God Save The Queen! (talk) 12:41, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

::::::The point made was not that WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS was an argument to delete. Obviously it is not. What Abductive was saying was that your argument, that the article should stay because similar articles existed, was not a valid keep reason per WP policy. I thought that was fairly clear.--KorruskiTalk 14:39, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

:*This AfD nomination was incomplete (missing step 3). It is listed now. DumbBOT (talk) 13:19, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

  • Strong Delete. Every year or two, we get some snow. The country grinds to a halt and everbody acts surprised because it's so early/late/heavy/cold. The media covers it in mind-numbing detail because the pictures are pretty. A few 'experts' get propped up on TV explaining why it's incredibly unusual, because that helps the media pretend it's news instead of weather. It's happened before, it'll happen again, and in a years time nobody will care. It's not notable.--KorruskiTalk 14:30, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
  • Keep. Every year or two, we get some snow: My part of England in most winters in the last 20 years or so has NOT had snow which settles and lasts, or enough ice on the road to force me to go to work on a bus, with the global warming. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 06:44, 5 December 2010 (UTC)
  • Keep There are enough verifiable and reliable sources to warrant an article. 930913 (Congratulate/Complaints) 14:38, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

::That is because it is currently in the news. However, that is not sufficient reason for inclusion, per WP:NOTNEWS--KorruskiTalk 14:40, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

  • Keep as it is notable event, due to effects on travel. It's not just snow. --Saulbeza (talk) 14:41, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
  • Keep Ample coverage of this unusual meteorological event on reliable and verifiable sources establishes notability. Alansohn (talk) 14:52, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
  • Delete I'm sitting in it, and it really is just weather. It's a little unusual, as it's happened in November, I'm not seeing any assertion of this being a notable snowfall. There is a lot of news reports about it from UK sources, but that's because it's what is playing on people's minds. It may become notable, if it keeps up, but that doesn't look likely, and we shouldn't be guessing that it will. Worm 15:29, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
  • Delete - It passes WP:RS and therefore WP:V. It even may seem to pass WP:N for now and for the UK.... but does fall into the catagory of WP:NOTNEWS. Not opposed to recreation if at the end of the winter there are some other WP:RS's that bring it into encyclopedic territory. - Pmedema (talk) 17:39, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
  • Delete per WP:NOTNEWS. Newspapers cover every weather event; encyclopedias are selective, and cover those which have enduring effects. So it snowed a lot, more than in the past several years for this part of the season. Sometimes it rains a lot. Sometimes it is foggy, or sunny. Weather happens, and there is some statistical variation in how much. When it snows, travel is delayed. This does not seem a transcendent event such as a great flood , blizzard, or hurricane which kills people and has enduring effects on society. This is just weather, in its normal variation. Edison (talk) 17:46, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
  • Comment - BBC News Channel has just called it one of the coldest starts to December in 20 years, perhaps adding weight to WP:N, but in any case, I've been looking around this evening and found Global storm activity of late 2010 and Winter of 2010–2011 in Europe, both of which cover this subject far more comprehensively than does the article under discussion. If the consensus is to delete then redirecting to one of those seems sensible. It can always be split into a separate article for the UK if the adverse weather continue as it did last year. TheRetroGuy (talk) 18:36, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
  • Keep Ongoing major notable event in the UK. The article's name is an arse though. Lugnuts (talk) 19:11, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
  • Keep Certainly in the North East of Scotland, this is the heaviest snowfall we've had in decades, certainly since the 1970s. This is outside the normal routine weather reporting, and qualifies as a notable event. Catfish Jim & the soapdish 20:21, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
  • Merge anything useful to Winter of 2010–2011 in Europe#UK. This could well become notable if it continues, but at present it really hasn't had the kind of impact that WP:EVENT seems to require. So put what we do have somewhere else for now, and recreate if and when that happens. Alzarian16 (talk) 22:00, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
  • Very strong keep - it's the heaviest snow for between 60 and 100 years (or at least it is in Sheffield)! Rename it though to something like Winter of 2010-2011 in the United Kingdom. Ggoere (talk) 12:47, 2 December 2010 (UTC)
  • Keep and rescue - major weather events generally are kept. Still ongoing, people may yet die because of it. Bearian (talk) 21:56, 2 December 2010 (UTC)
  • Note: The article under discussion here has been flagged for {{tl|rescue}} by the Article Rescue Squadron. SnottyWong prattle 04:11, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
  • Delete - Too early. This is news at this point. Wait until something actually happens. The sentiment here appears to be "if you were here you'd know how bad it was, people are probably going to end up dying and schools are going to close in a few days and reports will come out later about how many buses were cancelled". If there was an article about every time a few feet of snow fall somewhere on the planet, we could start a separate 3 million+ article encyclopedia on that topic alone. SnottyWong prattle 04:11, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
  • Strong Merge/Keep with Winter of 2010–2011 in Europe. It does not matter whether or not it is news at this point. As it stands it is currently breaking records, and [http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2010/1201/1224284487918.html fatalities have been recorded], albeit in the Republic of Ireland which has been affected by the same weather event as the UK. The point about whether or not is news is irrelevant. This event started on the 24th November in the UK, earlier further east of Britain. At what point is it no longer news? We are nearly 2 full weeks into the event. Do we have to wait an undefined period into the future before we are aloud to inform people of it? The article, if deleted, would only end up being recreated, due to the fact that this event is record breaking. Why bother deleting in that case? That's just wasting time and effort on an article that will inevitably be kept/recreated. Simply tag the top of the article as something that is documenting current events and information may change. I have a feeling Mr Snottywong and other deletionists are not from the British Isles - a few feet of snow may not be noteworthy in the USA or Canada, but it certainly is in these parts. --MacTire02 (talk) 12:38, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

:*I am from the UK. I recall the last time it snowed, and the time before that, and they were more or less exactly the same. It breaks some record somewhere or other, and the media loves to report on that. It stops people getting to work because our infrastructure is diabolical and noone has cars equipped for these conditions, but it's not a significant weather event.--KorruskiTalk 12:43, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

::* It's not just about the snow though. The timing, duration, temperatures, etc. on top of closed airports, interupted land transport routes, fatalities etc. all add to the event. For example, the event included the coldest recorded November temperature for the UK, the coldest recorded November temperature for Northern Ireland, fatalities in the ROI, etc. Snow may be heard of in the UK (after all Scotland is sufficiently located North and at an elevation), but there has not been snow in the ROI in November for decades. Temperatures are on average 10 degrees below normal. What is your definition for a significant weather event? Is there a panel of experts in Wikipedia that determines what is, or what is not, a significant weather event? Do we have to wait before there are thousands of people killed in a June snowstorm in Saudi Arabia before it qualifies as a significant weather event? --MacTire02 (talk) 12:54, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

:::*No, there is no panel, there are AfDs where people discuss these matters. That is what I am doing. I can't comment on the ROI, but my personal view is that, paradoxically, 'unusual' weather happens all the time because any given incident is unusual in some respect or other. Every time it snows heavily (or is very hot, or very cold, or very rainy, or very dry), the media find something unusual about it, because it helps them to justify their extensive coverage of it. This snow may be a couple of months earlier than is usual in some places, but in all other respects it is just the same heavy fall of snow that we get every few years (and more often lately) and which everyone gets incredibly excited about. Does it seriously justify an encyclopedia article on it?--KorruskiTalk 13:04, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

::::* I think it does justify an article on it. At the end of the day we have an article on the Winter of 2009–2010 in the United Kingdom, we have an article on the 2009 Great Britain and Ireland floods, etc. These all document events that can occur just as you described above. Yet we do have articles on them, yet you are trying to justify deleting this one? There is no logic to that. Is this current event significant - record temperatures: Yes; fatalities: Yes; Unusual time of the year: Yes; Extended duration: Yes. -16.4 C according to RTE news just now in the ROI has just set another record - coldest temperature in Ireland for December in recorded history. So that's 4 records broken just for temperatures alone.--MacTire02 (talk) 13:15, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

:::::*As mentioned earlier - WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS is an argument to avoid. As it happens, I would gladly assess the other articles and, very possibly, propose them for AfD. However, one discussion about the notability of snow falling in the winter is depressing enough, so I don't really want to set myself up for another one just now.--KorruskiTalk 14:13, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

::::* In addition, this weather event has cost an estimated [http://www.independent.ie/national-news/weather-costing-firms-euro7m-every-day-in-lost-business-2444771.html €7 million] per day according to the Irish Times yesterday, while RTE reported on the radio that it is estimated that it will have cost approximately €500,000,000. And that's just for Ireland. What about the UK? This all adds up to a significant weather event. Also, you mentioned that you remember each and every snowstorm. In Ireland, we had snow in the last few weeks, plus last January, but apart from that I do not remember the last time snow fell in Ireland. We don't get snow here frequently. --MacTire02 (talk) 13:39, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

:::::As for calculating the costs for the UK, let's try it like this. It cost the Republic of Ireland €500,000,000 and that's for 5 Million People (approx). The UK has a population of 60 Million (approx) so if we multiply that half a billion Euros by 12, it's looking rather expensive and that's without the currency exchange of 0.86 to make it into Pounds and we have a large hit to the economy. The C of E. God Save The Queen! (talk) 15:27, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

  • Delete - per Korruski. ~Asarlaí 14:30, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
  • Delete: "earliest case of widespread snow since 1993"? WP:NOTNEWS clearly applies. At any given moment, I suspect somewhere in the world is getting their most extreme weather (snow/rain/drought/whatever) in the last couple of decades. HrafnTalkStalk(P) 15:33, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
  • Comment - Just making a couple of observations really. We don't have articles on every snowfall that happens in the UK. Certainly we don't have one on the February 2007 snowfall, but that's because it only lasted a couple of days and didn't cause much disruption. This (and last year's to that matter) have been ongoing for quite some time, and as stated above, are significant in many respects. Several people have said in this discussion that this sort of weather is unusual for the UK. One thing I heard yesterday (on BBC News I think it was) is that countries such as the US and Canada can generally predict when and where they will have snowfall each year, whereas here our weather tends to be more eratic. I also think a lot of articles are created because of stuff someone has seen in the news, but at some point it goes beyond being just news. I tend to think that has happened here. TheRetroGuy (talk) 19:02, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
  • Delete per WP:NOTNEWS. TomCat4680 (talk) 20:01, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
  • Obvious Keep. Notability guideline in a nutshell says: "An event is presumed to be notable if it receives significant, non-routine coverage that persists over a period of time. Coverage should be in multiple reliable sources with national or global scope." This easily receives significant non-routine coverage over a period of time that is national in scope. Chris Neville-Smith (talk) 10:39, 4 December 2010 (UTC)
  • Hold your horses until this winter has finished and we can know how long the cold weather lasts. This article may need to be moved to Winter of 2010–2011 in the United Kingdom. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 06:39, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

:*Errm, winter hasn't even started yet. We're still in Autumn until 20 December. Mjroots (talk) 10:28, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

::*From Winter, "Meteorologists in the UK consider winter to be the three coldest months of December, January and February".Worm 12:50, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

:::Winter begins with the winter solstice, on 21 Dec. Mjroots (talk) 16:57, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

  • Some people say that winter in England starts on 1 December. Or whenever winter-type weather starts. I have been in Russia, and in some places there the land is under snow from November to March. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 20:43, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

::::By the definition used by meterologists, December 1 through February 28 is winter in the northern hemisphere. - The Bushranger Return fireFlank speed 02:01, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

  • Keep Weather related guidelines should probably be made to save time on these sorts of discussions. The news coverage for the events listed in the article, are all related to the article's subject. Dream Focus 19:09, 7 December 2010 (UTC)
  • Keep: The NY Times devoted coverage to this event[http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/04/world/europe/04europe.html?src=twrhp], which struck me as making it well above the ordinary weather event.--Milowent • talkblp-r 06:25, 8 December 2010 (UTC)
  • Keep I cannot see why this would even be considered for deletion; it notable as it is very extreme weather for Britain - and has caused severe disruption to the Economy, Transport, Education and everyday life.--SUFC Boy 22:03, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

==Break 1==

  • Delete. Wikipedia is not for news reports, which is all that this article is. Such content is more suited to Wikinews.  Sandstein  07:34, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

:Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Spartaz Humbug! 21:01, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

  • Delete, until the storm can be shown to have lasting impact into the future, as with the Blizzard of 1977. WP:NOTNEWS was made for this sort of article. Powers T 21:23, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

:*And at which point the article will just need to be recreated, right? Why not just leave it for now, then later, if it's determined not to have a lasting impact, it can be AfD'd. WP:CRYSTAL works both ways. - The Bushranger One ping only 21:43, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

:**Well, it's up for discussion now, and right now I don't see any evidence of lasting impact. I can't predict what will happen in the future. Powers T 00:18, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

:***How long must verifiable and notable events be excluded from wikipedia before we can be certain that they have enduring notability? A week? A month? A year? The longer the delay, the more out of date wikipedia is. We're not about to run out of ink and paper through covering events which have, in other respects, far exceeded our usual thresholds of notability &c. Having read WP:NOTNEWS, I'm confident that it does not mandate the exclusion of any content simply because it's in a news article.

:***Lacking any visibility of future notability, feel free to come back and put the article on AfD if at some future date reliable sources have lost all interest in it. I would oppose any deletion argument based on an assumption that the article might not be notable in future. bobrayner (talk) 13:03, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

  • Comment - Still in favour of keeping for all the reasons I listed above. This afternoon has seen the [http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-11976328 resignation of the Scottish Transport Minister] following criticism of the way he handled the situation north of the border. More news, perhaps, but something else to add weight to the reasons to keep. Certainly a lasting effect for him, and I'm sure he'll wish he'd played it differently. TheRetroGuy (talk) 17:18, 11 December 2010 (UTC)
  • Just found an article called Winter of 2010-2011 in Great Britain and Ireland which seems to have more information, but no references. Anyone want to start another AFD? I actually think we could merge some of that information into this (with a few references of course). TheRetroGuy (talk) 17:29, 11 December 2010 (UTC)
  • Delete - this is a classic example of exactly the type of topic Wikipedia is NOT for. Highly depressing that so many people have devoted so much time and effort into creating (and debating) such an almighty trivial topic, when Wikipedia lacks even a stub on thousands of important topics. If we really must cover such things, can we not merge the content into a set of topic artcles, eg. European weather in 2009, European weather in 2010, European weather in 2011, etc, etc, etc--Mais oui! (talk) 09:05, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
  • We have some of those. Check out Winter of 2009-2010 in Europe and Winter of 2010-2011 in Europe. I'm not sure it's highly depressing exactly. An encyclopedia should include all sorts of important facts, whether it be notable weather events or a breakdown of this year's football season. Moreover, if we can include information on each year's Atlantic Hurricane Season (which we do quite comprehensively) then there's surely a place for European Winters. And, as I think I have said somewhere, because of our mild climate (the Gulf Stream and all that) weather of this nature is unusual for the United Kingdom. TheRetroGuy (talk) 17:40, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
  • Keep* I came to Wiki to find out the level of significance of this year compared to previous years. As such it provided useful information even if it was that comparatively it was not that rare. Having said that, I have not seen this much snow in Edinburgh since 1977 not seen it lasting so long and as such it is significant. It would seem useful to keep while people will still be looking to ask that kind of question. If at the end of the winter it seems insignificant then that would be the time for deletion. GSAckerman (talk) 07:36, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
  • Keep per reasons in previous discussion. People have died in it, it is hitting around about the Christmas shopping period which is causing economic damages as well as physical damages. The rarity of snow coming in this quantity this early is a notible issue. And it looks like there may be more this weekend as well as the stories where it's so severe in certain areas such as Scotland where it's getting almost impossible to get food in. The C of E. God Save The Queen! (talk) 13:26, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
  • Keep: WP:NEWSEVENT says "An event is presumed to be notable if it receives significant, non-routine coverage that persists over a period of time. Coverage should be in multiple reliable sources with national or global scope". I think this subject passes that threshold by a country mile. bobrayner (talk) 12:50, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
  • Delete The title is a misnomer, there was no heavy snow, just snow period. Why not create Rain of summer 2010 in the United Kingdom as well? How about Heavy insect breeding season of summer 2006? If this is kept then my advice would be to copy Winter of 2009–2010 in the United Kingdom and change 2009-2010 to 2010-11, we could also do that for Winter of 2010–2011 in the United Kingdom as well and so on. I'm sure the people reading in 2035 will be fascinated to hear how the snowfall of 2010 caused up to seventeen schools to close in the Norwich area. There is nothing notable about this snowfall, this is a highly northern country, not the Sahara.--EchetusXe 15:08, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

:Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, -- Cirt (talk) 05:14, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

:The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.