Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of calypsos with sociopolitical influences

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:{{la|1=List of calypsos with sociopolitical influences}} – (View AfDView log | edits since nomination)

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First, I want to aknowledge the effort of {{U|LordGriot}} (then {{U|Loguenn}}) for this huge list article.

However, as a list, I don't see it's viability. It's, as far as I can tell, an original attempt at organizing every callipso song into various arbitrary topics like "Aspiration", "Health" and "Culture - Other". Referencing is... really not great.

I've tried to look for other similar lists and AFAICT this is the only attempt at organizing all the songs of genre into "topics".

So for these reasons, I recommend deletion, though the source code should be made available upon request to anyone that would like to copy that on something like a Callypso Wiki or some such. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 04:38, 23 March 2025 (UTC)

• Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Music-related deletion discussions. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 04:38, 23 March 2025 (UTC)
• Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Albums and songs and Lists. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 05:20, 23 March 2025 (UTC)

• Delete per WP:OR and WP:NLIST. Clarityfiend (talk) 19:40, 23 March 2025 (UTC)

:Hello,

:First of all, this is not an attempt at referencing EVERY calypsos into categories as you say, that would not be possible due to the number of calypsos existing and still being produced.

:The list is produced from references (mostly journals and books) that mention these calypsos as part of their analysis. For example, a number of sources mention calypsos as important for the Trinidadian, calypso feminist movement. I therefore didn't invent anything when categorizing that calypso under feminism. Same can be said about most other categories. If you would not mind looking at the references, the topics range from imperial influence, evolution of calypso culture, sport (especially cricket) history, economy and politics. Numerous studies stress the importance of calypsos as witness to the evolution of society, with specific examples. The classification is therefore not the creation of my mind, but an application of the researched readings. In addition, academics can refer to the list of sources at the bottom, which are all valid and verified. This list is vital in order to document, through referenced examples, an important socio-cultural oral phenomenon.

:I am eagerly welcoming suggestions and modifications regarding the choice of some of the category names and content, which is why I started this list on Wikipedia rather than placing it on a web site, but deleting the list is unjustified. 207.253.241.246 (talk) 14:31, 25 March 2025 (UTC)

::Sorry - I am not logged where I am now, tell me if I need to resubmit this when I am logged. Loguenn 207.253.241.246 (talk) 14:32, 25 March 2025 (UTC)

:::Confirming that the message above was written by me Loguenn (talk) 00:54, 26 March 2025 (UTC)

:I would like to add to this discussion because I do not see that this list should be removed. Rather, I believe it is entirely valid and supports the mission of Wikipedia.

:

:This article serves an important educational and cultural purpose and aligns strongly with Wikipedia’s mission to make the sum of human knowledge freely accessible — especially knowledge from underrepresented communities and traditions. Calypso and soca music are deeply tied to Caribbean history and identity, and have long served as tools for social commentary, protest, and storytelling. This list helps to surface that sociopolitical legacy in an accessible, research-supported way that I could see our students at using as a starting point for their music history class.

:The categories — such as education, health, feminism, politics, race — are not arbitrary. They reflect themes identified in decades of research by major scholars like Gordon Rohlehr, Hollis “Chalkdust” Liverpool, Lise Winer, and others. These same themes appear in the academic texts and syllabi at our institution and in peer-reviewed articles, and music history collections our students reference in their research. The article does not present original research — it synthesizes data from dozens of reliable sources and organizes them thematically which is a great starting point.

:Yes, it’s a large list — but comprehensive, well-organized lists are one of Wikipedia’s strengths. They help users explore cultural content at scale and in depth. This article is unique in that it curates calypso and soca music by sociopolitical topic across nearly a century of recordings.

:This topic is highly relevant to these WikiProjects:

:{{Ping|WikiProject Caribbean}}

:{{Ping|WikiProject Music}}

:{{Ping|WikiProject Lists}}

:{{Ping|WikiProject Cultural studies}}

:{{Ping|WikiProject Ethnic groups}}

:Rather than deletion, this article would benefit from ongoing collaboration. It represents a valuable collection of knowledge about the cultural and political history of the Caribbean through its most iconic oral art form. Let's work to preserve it.

:Thank you for listening, AC Sorrelgal00 (talk) 16:56, 26 March 2025 (UTC) — Sorrelgal00 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. {{#if:|A sockpuppet investigation is open at Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/{{{spi}}}.{{sp}}|}}

:Hello again, I saw that you write 'callipso' in your request for deletion? Do you have a source justifying this spelling? Or is it an additional proof that this important socio-cultural art form needs to be more documented? Loguenn (talk) 00:22, 27 March 2025 (UTC)

• Delete of course. It's completely unclear what the scope of this list is even supposed to be. What does it take for something to have "sociopolitical influence", whatever that even is. Besides that, this seems to be some giant listing of every calypso song in existence (or is it?), which is way too broad, organized in some hare-brained way that definitely violates WP:NOR. There may very well be more encyclopedic content about the genre and its influence generally, but this bare listing isn't that. 35.139.154.158 (talk) 16:14, 29 March 2025 (UTC)
• :Socio political influence, or Power (social and political) as defined by Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_(social_and_political) . Not 'whatever that even is'.
• :Furthermore, I already explained above that the goals is not to create a giant list of every calypso song in existence, which would not be possible, but to illustrate the cultural and historical importance of calypsos based on documentary evidences (journals, books and articles). The categories show the range of subject covered through the years. Loguenn (talk) 19:01, 29 March 2025 (UTC)
• :I am also amazed at the fact that this page has been reviewed multiple times in the last 4 years, by many people who had no issues with the format used, and now you want to delete it? Would that be related to present efforts at deleting any cultural information that is different from a certain centric view of the world? Loguenn (talk) 19:12, 29 March 2025 (UTC)
• ::First of all, I can tell you that you need to knock off the thinly-veiled conspiratorial/bigotry language. That will get you nowhere (except maybe blocked if you continue down that road). Second, the article hasn't undergone any sort of formal review, except possibly WP:NPP when it was first created. The fact that it has existed for such-and-such length of time is completely irrelevant to whether it's an appropriate topic for a Wikipedia article. Someone sees it, thinks it's no good, and nominates it at AFD, at which point, other people notice it and weigh in. That's how deletion often goes here. Third, again, the scope of the list is entirely unclear, and thus violates WP:LISTCRIT. Despite your link above, I still haven't the foggiest idea what it means for a song to have "sociopolitical influence" (or is it even that the song was the thing that was influenced sociopolitically). Are there any sources that make such a claim and try to classify such songs? Because otherwise, this article is original research/synthesis which isn't allowed on WP. Once again, there might be some room for a prose article on ...whatever the point is here, but this list can't stay. 35.139.154.158 (talk) 20:13, 29 March 2025 (UTC)
• :::A constructive action would be to propose another word for Sociopolitical influence, instead of just trying to have the list deleted. And if you would take the time to read through the sources, as I did, you would find that indeed these songs have been classified as such by published researchers.
• :::Following are just some examples from this page's references:
• :::- Socio-Cultural Change and the Language of Calypso. Winer
• :::Multiple categories:
• :::- Themes of War, Politics and Health Education in Calypso Music. Lowe
• :::- Shakespeare, Empire, and the Trinidad Calypso. Rampaul
• :::More specifically:
• :::Feminism:
• :::- Calypsonian women: A mode of resistance that empowers feminity. Battistelli
• :::- The Rise of Calypso Feminism: Gender and Musical Politics in the Calypso. Mahabir
• :::- Reflections on the Women's Movement in Trinidad: Calypsos, Changes and Sexual Violence. Mohammed
• :::Immigration/emmigration:
• :::- London is the Place: Caribbean Music in the Context of Empire 1900-60. Cowley
• :::- MUSIC & MIGRATION: Aspects of Black Music in the British Caribbean, the United States, and Britain, before the Independence of Jamaica and Trinidad & Tobago. Cowley
• :::- (Not) Knowing the difference: Calypso overseas and the sound of belonging in selected narratives of migration. Rahim
• :::Politics & history
• :::- Calypso as a vehicle for political commentary: An endangered musical species. Dean
• :::- In the Battle for Emergent Independence: Calypsos of Decolonization. Funk
• :::- From slavery to black power: the enigma of Africa in the Trinidad calypso. Fergus
• :::- Mailman to make Government Understand: The Calypsonian (Mighty Chalkdust) as Political Opposition in the Caribbean. Hinds
• :::Commentaries on War
• :::- Calypso and War. Hill
• :::Social influence & politics:
• :::- Calypso music : identity and social influence : the Trinidadian experience . Charles
• :::- Recognising the language of calypso as ‘symbolic action’ in resolving conflict in the republic of Trinidad and Tobago. Phillips
• :::-'Man talking to man' Calypso and social confrontation in Trinidad 1970 to 1984. Rohlehr
• :::- Narratives of Resistance in Trinidad's Calypso and Soca Music. Sylvester
• :::Sport/cricket: Calypso, Literature and West Indian Cricket: Era of Dominance. Rohlehr
• :::Once again, I welcome documented suggestions to change some of the categories. In fact, I would really appreciate such constructive collaboration. Loguenn (talk) 18:06, 30 March 2025 (UTC)
• :::I would like to also refer you to lists such as: Wikipedia - 'List of Anti-war songs' which is similar to mine in that the songs have been sorted by categories. Loguenn (talk) 18:11, 30 March 2025 (UTC)
• Delete, regrettably. It doesn't list extant articles, so can't earn merit through that avenue. The concept of having "sociopolitical influences" is too loosely defined, and there is no sort of context. I strongly encourage the author to host this on a personal website. Geschichte (talk) 08:47, 30 March 2025 (UTC)
• :Wikipedia lists do not contain additional context, they are just lists. See for example: List of academic journals, list of fictional animals, ... any list on 'Wikipedia - List of list'. The inserted links bring people to 75 references (so far), therefore saying that there is no reference to extant content would be incorrect. Furthermore, the page also indicates hundreds of sources to support entered content. A valid comment would be to replace 'sociopolitical influences' by another expression like 'Power (social and political)' if you want, which is clearly defined in Wikipedia. Constructive criticism would consist on helping to improve this list, not ask for its deletion. Loguenn (talk) 17:38, 30 March 2025 (UTC)
• Keep There's clearly reliable sourcing to satisfy NLIST - "On Sunday night there is a second "international" competition in which the top calypsonians from about ten islands vie to become Caribbean Calypso King. Again, racial consciousness and solidarity are prevalent themes. Lord Short Shirt of Antigua, a recent winner of the title, delivered a calypso urging his audience to "pull together, with your black brother". He was dethroned the following year by Mighty Swallow, who rose to fame with the song "Freedom". Each verse recited the oppression suffered by black people in a different world area - Angola, Rhodesia, Antigua. The chorus, which the audience enthusiastically joined, was the chant "freedom". In performance the song was strikingly reminiscent of the call-and-response pattern which structures the rythmn of West African oral expression." (pp193-194)[http://www.jstor.com/stable/40459231 Carnival in Antigua (Caribbean Sea): An Indigenous Festival in a Tourist Economy, Frank E. Manning, Anthropos, Bd. 73, H. 1./2. (1978)] The difficulty is that the list could be better titled and more explicit in its scope, but those problems are content related and can be dealt with through editing. Regards, --Goldsztajn (talk) 20:52, 30 March 2025 (UTC)

{{clear}}

:The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.