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Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Mark Bingham

:The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. -- Cirt (talk) 02:37, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

=[[Mark Bingham]]=

:{{la|Mark Bingham}} – (View AfDView log)

:({{Find sources|Mark Bingham}})

Seems to fail WP:GNG, though this is a borderline case. His claims to fame are, in no particular order, being a passenger on Flight 93; having what seems to be a semi-professional minor rugby competition named after him; and being portrayed in a few documentaries about Flight 93. However, merely being a victim of an airline hijacking does not itself confer notability. Even if the rugby competition is deemed notable (I do not, at this moment in time, have an opinion one way or the other), it doesn't "transfer" notability to him (to put it in reverse, if I'm a friend of the very notable Jimbo Wales, and me and my buddies play a game of Quake 3 Arena and call it, with Mr. Wales' blessing, "The Jimbo Wales Honorary Invitational", our little competition does not become notable). And simply being portrayed in documentaries doesn't bestow notability, either - the movies are about Flight 93, not Mr. Bingham flying on Flight 93. As far as his rugby career is concerned, he does not seem to meet the criteria listed in WP:ATHLETE for rugby union players, as the San Francisco Fog are not a first class rugby union team, and do not seem to have participated in full-pro competition - but that should probably be confirmed by somebody more knowledgable about rugby union than I. Regardless of final outcome, the article definitely needs a rewrite, as the glurge-factor is currently off the charts - and if it's determined that he does, in fact, meet the WP:ATHLETE guidelines, the article should be appropriately restructured to cover Mark Bingham the rugby union player first, and Mark Bingham the guy with the PR firm who flew on Flight 93 second. Badger Drink (talk) 23:50, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 01:49, 24 January 2011 (UTC)
  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Terrorism-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 01:49, 24 January 2011 (UTC)
  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Businesspeople-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 01:50, 24 January 2011 (UTC)
  • Actually he sails past the WP:GNG. Your waffling about fictitious gaming events is wholly irrelevant - someone having an event named after them does add to their notability. He is still noted to this month: "In the aftermath of the 9/11 terrorist attacks, the compelling story of Mark Bingham, the gay rugby player who helped bring down United Airlines Flight 93 over Pennsylvania, captured headlines. Arizona Sen. John McCain, in a 2008 interview with the Blade, cited Bingham as one of his gay heroes."[http://www.washingtonblade.com/2011/01/13/giffords-shooting-shines-light-on-guns-speech/] Fences&Windows 03:41, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

::"Someone having an event named after them does add to their notability" - no, it doesn't. Coorelation is not causation. It's a good indicator that there may be something notable about them, but this is hardly a guarantee of anything. At most, it may warrant a redirect from Mark Bingham to the rugby tournament, if said tournament passes WP:N. And you're saying that if John McCain namedrops somebody, they're automatically notable? Nonsense. Badger Drink (talk) 05:55, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

  • Keep. Although Wikipedia is not a memorial, Bingham was one of only a few passengers on United Airlines Flight 93 to capture the public's attention in a major way (others include Todd Beamer and Jeremy Glick). [http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&tbs=bks%3A1%2Ccdr%3A1%2Ccd_min%3AJan+1_2+2001%2Ccd_max%3ADec+31_2+2011&q=93+%22mark+bingham%22&btnG=Search&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq= Hundreds of Google Books hits] attest to this. I don't mean to portray Bingham as a "victim" per se (which might be seen as belittling his heroic efforts, along with other passengers, to thwart the hijackers), but he literally was a victim of the hijacking, and he does qualify as notable under WP:VICTIM: "The victim, consistent with WP:BLP1E, had a large role within a well-documented historic event. The historic significance is indicated by persistent coverage of the event in reliable secondary sources that devote significant attention to the individual's role." Bingham's notability is not as a rugby player, not as a PR executive, but as a 9/11 hero, and he is definitely notable for that. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 04:35, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

::Over two thousand people were "literally" victims of the hijacking. I'm not sure how Bingham can be reconciled with WP:BLP1E. A lot of books have lists of the people killed in the hijackings, and the few spot-checks I made from the link you provided seem to confirm this. Badger Drink (talk) 05:55, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

:::Yes, but most of those people did not receive persistent coverage in reliable secondary sources that devoted significant attention to their role. Let's look at some potential sources. [http://books.google.com/books?id=CWMEAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA40&dq=93+%22mark+bingham%22&hl=en&ei=nSo9TffcGY_AgQfHg7WhCA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCQQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=93%20%22mark%20bingham%22&f=false This article] from The Advocate is seven pages long and devoted to portraying Bingham as the "Person of the Year". [http://books.google.com/books?id=DTjLXRs34rIC&pg=PT30&dq=93+%22mark+bingham%22&hl=en&ei=nSo9TffcGY_AgQfHg7WhCA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=10&ved=0CFEQ6AEwCQ#v=onepage&q=93%20%22mark%20bingham%22&f=false This book], Critical Perspectives on 9/11, is 176 pages long, and almost 9 pages of that is devoted to Bingham's experience. [http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=OGoeAAAAIBAJ&sjid=XMkEAAAAIBAJ&pg=5815,3073163&dq=93+mark-bingham&hl=en Here] is a syndicated Associated Press article devoted to Bingham. In fact, [http://www.amazon.com/Hero-Flight-93-Bingham-Advocate/dp/1555837808 an entire book] was published titled Hero of Flight 93: Mark Bingham. The coverage given to Bingham in reliable sources goes far beyond treating him as just someone on the list of victims killed on 9/11. See WP:1E which says, "if an event is of sufficient importance, even relatively minor participants may require their own articles, for example Howard Brennan, a witness to the JFK assassination." Bingham easily passes the "Howard Brennan test". --Metropolitan90 (talk) 07:52, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

::::And just to emphasize something: Bingham was not just "a passenger on Flight 93". He is believed to have been one of the passengers who attacked the hijackers and thus prevented them from crashing the plane into the United States Capitol or another major landmark building. That's why he is often called a hero. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 08:01, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

:::Yes, over two thousand people were "literally" victims of 9/11. However, no more than a handful of those people are still household names ten years hence, about whom we can write genuinely and reliably sourced encyclopedia articles that rely not just on one single "Victims of 9/11" blurb in The New York Times, but on broad and sustained coverage in a variety of sources; Bingham is one of that handful. Keep. Bearcat (talk) 01:02, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

  • Strong keep - He's the subject of the highest award in LGBT rugby, the Bingham cup; he's consistently rated in top 100 lists in Advocate, Out, and other such media; he's literally the chief subject of a new national park; and he was the protagonist in a major Hollywood film. I don't know how much more notable a dead amateur athlete can be. He was not just a witness; he was the man who saved thousands off lives. His name continue to appear in reliable sources through today, almost ten years after his death. Bearian (talk) 18:42, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

:Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, NW (Talk) 02:40, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

  • Strong keep - The article needs to be rewritten to better show his place in history, but I consider Mark Bingham notable. Along with Todd Beamer, Tom Burnett, and Jeremy Glick, Mark Bingham is believed to be one of the passengers responsible for fighting the hijackers, as indicated by [http://espn.go.com/espy2002/s/asherelease.html this article] from the Associated Press and [http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2001/dec/02/september11.terrorism1 this article] from The Observer among other print sources. He received a posthumous Arthur Ashe Courage Award and was the subject of [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BuvBTfN9C0c a song called "Tuesday Morning"] by Melissa Etheridge. The New York Times [http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9D04E3DA1338F935A25752C0A9649C8B63&sec=&spon=&&scp=2&sq=mark%20bingham&st=cse called him] a Gay icon. How far does that go to demonstrating notability? Flavescent (talk) 23:45, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

:The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.