Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/North Hudson, New Jersey

{{AFD help}}

:{{la|North Hudson, New Jersey}} – (View AfDView log{{int:dot-separator}} [https://tools.wmflabs.org/jackbot/snottywong/cgi-bin/votecounter.cgi?page=Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/North_Hudson,_New_Jersey Stats])

:({{Find sources AFD|North Hudson, New Jersey}})

The best I can tell, this is a made-up designation. I have never heard of anyone referring to these towns collectively as "North Hudson" and I cannot find any reliable source that does so either. Since North Hudson is not a legal designation, WP:GEOLAND requires "non-trivial coverage in multiple, independent reliable sources" Rusf10 (talk) 02:35, 18 June 2019 (UTC)

:Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Geography-related deletion discussions. Rusf10 (talk) 02:35, 18 June 2019 (UTC)

:Note: This discussion has been included in the list of New Jersey-related deletion discussions. Rusf10 (talk) 02:35, 18 June 2019 (UTC)

• Delete After some research, the term "North Hudson" appears to be a term for the general region, possibly a colloquialism, such as the sewerage authority and the fire authority. I don't see significant coverage of the definition of the region in any of the sources, and many of the sources in the article don't even use the term, making much of the article possibly WP:OR. Happy to review any sources I may have missed. SportingFlyer T·C 03:07, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
• Keep (Poor nomination ...the best I can tell,I have never heard not important). As correctly stated above, it's a common historical and contemporary term used for northern part of Hudson County, New Jersey, both officially and colloquially, (similar to Central Jersey) for example:

:: North Hudson Regional Fire and Rescue

:: North Hudson County Railway

:: [https://nhcac.org/ North Hudson Community Action Corporation]

:: [http://www.nhudsonsa.com/ North Hudson Sewerage Authority]

:: North Hudson Park

:: North Hudson Hospital

:: [https://www.hccc.edu/WelcomeNorthHudson North Hudson Campus]] of Hudson County Community College

:: Hudson County Schools of Technology [http://hcstonline.org/locations/north-hudson-center/ North Hudson Center]

:: [http://nohucollective.com/ NoHU]

:: [http://www.nhiec.com/ North Hudson Islamic Center]

:: [http://northhudsonacademy.org/ North Hudson Academy]

:: etc, etc, etc Djflem (talk)

:::*It's actually not a poor nomination at all - this isn't a legally defined place, and the fact that it gets used to identify businesses and a regional fire and rescue service doesn't mean that we should have an article on WP:SYNTH grounds. Many of the sources in the article are WP:SYNTH. One source used to show the population density of North Hudson, [https://www.nytimes.com/1993/11/28/nyregion/a-sense-of-place.html], supports calling the region the "Gold Coast" and doesn't use the phrase "North Hudson" at all. Another source, [https://www.nytimes.com/1914/12/20/archives/commercial-growth-in-new-jersey-town-on-heights-has-doubled-the.html], calls it "West New York." [https://timesmachine.nytimes.com/timesmachine/1911/06/18/104868978.pdf] discusses North Hudson Park, but not North Hudson. There's no source I've seen yet which actually defines this place. A similar geography AfD which comes to mind is the "East Minnesota" one. SportingFlyer T·C 06:17, 18 June 2019 (UTC)

::::the best I can tell,I have never heard as a basis for nom make it a poor one. Please provide a definition of a legally defined place.what is a legally defined place? Please explain North Jersey, Central Jersey and South Jersey, and New York Harbor providing their proof of their "legal definitions" to back up your argument about "legal definitions". Please provide any Wikipedia policy that you can demonstrate that "legal definitions" is in anyway a criterium.Djflem (talk) 19:12, 18 June 2019 (UTC)

:::::Obviously a legally defined place is its official name or at least one that the government recognizes. I don't know how else to explain it to you. That certainly is not the case here. While the examples you give are not legal names, they are in common usage and there is plenty of "non-trivial coverage in multiple, independent reliable sources" to support that. I've never heard anyone use the term "North Hudson" before and you can only give one example of where a reliable source has actually used the term to describe the same thing as this article (as opposed to a fire department or hospital).--Rusf10 (talk) 22:30, 18 June 2019 (UTC)

::::::No need to explain. "Legally defined' is non-criteria, hence irrelevant, as pointed out. Government (legally) named/affiliated organization are: Hudson County Community College North Hudson Campus, Hudson County Braddcok-North Hudson Park, North Hudson Regional Council of Mayors, North Hudson Sewerage Authority, North Hudson Regional Fire and Rescue, Hudson County Schools of Technology North Hudson Center, North Hudson Community Action Corporation Djflem (talk) 23:26, 18 June 2019 (UTC)

:::::::"Legally defined" is neither non-criteria nor irrelevant at all, WP:GEOLAND holds here and this is an "informal place" and therefore must substantively pass WP:GNG. SportingFlyer T·C 02:40, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

• Delete None of the uses above appears to actually define a real specific place of "North Hudson". These are all simple routine geographic indicators that they're located within the northern part of the county but do not establish that it exactly encompasses the five cities mentioned in the first sentence as an actual "collective name", other than their sharing a fire department. The Sewerage Authority does not cover the same set of cities and the CAC is all over the [https://nhcac.org/sites-locations/ area], suggesting this is largely synthesis. What doesn't already duplicate Hudson County, New Jersey could be merged there. Reywas92^Talk 08:26, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
• Keep Such geographical designations are quite common – West London; Upper East Side; South Jersey, and many more. As this region has a railway and a fire service, it is obviously not "made-up" but is, in fact, reasonably official. Andrew D. (talk) 10:31, 18 June 2019 (UTC)

::As seen:

• {{cite web|url=https://books.google.nl/books?id=OSA3AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA13&lpg=PA13&dq=north+hudson+municipalities&source=bl&ots=vdVJ9VOpp_&sig=ACfU3U2EyaipWqy6CvUwkjA5vnRIs21nkw&hl=nl&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjbk4rurPLiAhUNTcAKHWWTDUc4ChDoATACegQICRAB#v=onepage&q=north+hudson+municipalities&f=false|title=Jersey City, Hudson River Waterfront Transportation Corridor Improvements, Hudson-Bergen Light Rail Transit System (HBLRTS), Hudson County, Bergen County: Environmental Impact Statement|date=18 June 1996|publisher=|via=Google Books}}
• {{cite web|url=https://www.nytimes.com/1974/09/22/archives/site-to-new-hospital-disputed-specialists-committed-a-fancy.html|title=Site of New Hospital Disputed|first=Joseph F.|last=Sullivan|date=22 September 1974|publisher=|via=NYTimes.com}}
• {{cite web|url=https://www.nj.com/hudson/2015/06/is_hudson_county_home_to_some_of_njs_worst_places.html|title=Is Hudson County home to some of N.J.'s worst places to live? Report says yes|first=Summer|last=Dawn|date=24 June 2015|website=nj.com}}
• {{cite web|url=https://www.nj.com/hudson/2018/08/want_to_be_a_firefighter_in_north_hudson_heres_whe.html|title=Want to be a firefighter in North Hudson? Here's where to start|first=Patrick|last=Villanova|date=14 August 2018|website=nj.com}}
• {{cite book|url=https://archive.org/details/thisisnewjersey0000cunn|url-access=registration|page=[https://archive.org/details/thisisnewjersey0000cunn/page/100 100]|quote=north hudson townships.|title=This is New Jersey|first=John T.|last=Cunningham|date=18 June 1994|publisher=Rutgers University Press|via=Internet Archive}}
• {{cite web|url=https://books.google.nl/books?id=q4I2DwAAQBAJ&pg=PA1132&lpg=PA1132&dq=Havana+on+the+Hudson+North+Hudson&source=bl&ots=11XMDxU-NY&sig=ACfU3U0Hk8bhrafLrFSCbstPctXde6AF9w&hl=nl&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiIyuO89vPiAhUMTsAKHcmhD2wQ6AEwDnoECBMQAQ#v=onepage&q=Havana+on+the+Hudson+North+Hudson&f=false|title=America's Changing Neighborhoods: An Exploration of Diversity through Places [3 volumes]|first=Reed Ueda|last=Ph.D|date=21 September 2017|publisher=ABC-CLIO|via=Google Books}}
• [https://www.guidestar.org/profile/22-2083720 North Hudson Regional Council of Mayors]
• [http://www.hobokennj.org/docs/council/2.17.16.certified.resolutions.pdf Meals on Wheels administered by the North Hudson Regional Council of Mayors]
• [http://www.govwiki.info/pdfs/Non-Profit/NJ%20North%20Hudson%20Regional%20Council%20Of%20Mayors%202016.pdf Audit North Hudson Regional Council of Mayors]

Djflem (talk) 21:36, 18 June 2019 (UTC)

::This is really just WP:SYNTH. You cannot make the argument that just because an organization (such as a fire department or hospital) is named North Hudson that means its an actual designation. Of all of your sources, only one newspaper article actually seems to refer to the towns collectively as "North Hudson" [https://www.nj.com/hudson/2015/06/is_hudson_county_home_to_some_of_njs_worst_places.html] which means at best this is a neologism, which is also not allowed as per WP:NOTNEO--Rusf10 (talk) 22:19, 18 June 2019 (UTC)

:::Try this: A neologism is a relatively recent or isolated term, word, or phrase that may be in the process of entering common use, but that has not yet been fully accepted into mainstream language. But thanks for pointing out that your nominamation rationale The best I can tell, this is a made-up designation. I have never heard of anyone referring to these towns collectively as "North Hudson" and I cannot find any reliable source that does so either. is invalid. Djflem (talk) 23:04, 18 June 2019 (UTC)

::::You obviously did not read what I wrote, I said "at best this is a neologism". So yes, it basically is made-up (see WP:SYNTH). You're going to need much more than one or two newspaper articles to prove otherwise.--Rusf10 (talk) 23:55, 18 June 2019 (UTC)

:::::Yes, I read your attempt to try to cite a non-applicable policy.Djflem (talk) 00:07, 19 June 2019 (UTC)

As stated in Wikipedia policies WP:ATD, WP:NOTPAPER, WP:PRESERVE it and further explained Wikipedia:Broad-concept article, specifically WP:DABCONGEO there is no reason for deletion of a place name of a defined region that is historical, contemporary, and defines numerous names based on geography of the place where they are located.Djflem (talk) 10:06, 21 June 2019 (UTC)

:Please don't parrot the same stupid links Andrew D. always does - just because weren't not paper doesn't mean whatever the hell you want to write is immune from deletion or change – an alternative to deletion is to preserve content in a merge, and Hudson County, New Jersey already has or can contain all of this information. The key point is that sure, people call the northern part of Hudson County North Hudson, but that doesn't mean it is its own entity that needs its own geographic and historic description. Most of the sources in these sections refer to either specific towns in the area (and not necessarily the same set you've defined it as) or to Hudson County as a whole, and to combine them in this way is WP:SYNTHESIS.

:For example, you have the line "and North Hudson became the 'embroidery capitol of the United States'": besides the misspelling, the Times citation refers specifically to West New York, not North Hudson. Another line says "Simultaneously middle-class and professional Cubans...re-located to the area[19]...leading to the nickname "Havana on the Hudson"." Why did you deliberately obscure the fact that [https://www.nytimes.com/1992/11/30/nyregion/union-city-and-miami-a-sisterhood-born-of-cuban-roots.html your citation] says "Union City is more than its old nickname, "Havana on the Hudson," suggests"? So much of this article synthesizes content that is already at the county or city articles, and while this region may be called North Hudson for the convenience of collecting several smaller cities across the Lincoln Tunnel, just as they efficiently consolidated a fire department, it's excessive to artificially integrate their "Character" and geography separately from the rest of the county when independent sources do not discuss these sections together under this name. Reywas92^Talk 19:46, 21 June 2019 (UTC)

::As stated...the key point is that sure, people call the northern part of Hudson County North Hudson. Thus the name for the northern part of Hudson County is North Hudson. Agreed?Djflem (talk) 15:54, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

• {{cite web|url=https://hudsonreporter.com/2018/12/27/north-hudson-year-in-review/|title=North Hudson Year in Review|first=Mike|last=Montemarano|date=27 December 2018|publisher=}} (includes, Secaucus, bringing Wikipedia:DABCONGEO into play)
• {{cite web|url=https://hudsoncountyview.com/report-west-new-york-union-city-among-top-30-poorest-towns-in-the-state/|title=Report: West New York, Union City among top 30 poorest towns in the state|first=John|last=Heinis|date=24 January 2018|website=Hudson County View}} Djflem (talk) 10:06, 21 June 2019 (UTC)
• Keep. "North Hudson" is a legitimate term for a collection of nearby and overlapping communities, it is not a neologism. North Jersey or Upper East Side are perfect comparisons. ST47 (talk) 23:28, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

::Do you have any proof that backs up this assertion? I've lived in New Jersey most of my life and I have never heard this term.--Rusf10 (talk) 00:44, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

:::Rusf10 having heard of term is not Wikipedia criteria; but now they have, so its unclear why ignorance of it is repeated.Djflem (talk) 10:48, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

• Revison Article has been revised ([https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=North_Hudson,_New_Jersey&diff=next&oldid=903348702 Revision per 25 2019]) to be continued. Djflem (talk) 15:27, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

• Comment Even the ivote delete participants note acknowledge:

::"After some research, the term "North Hudson" appears to be a term for the general region..." (SportingFlyer)

::"The key point is that sure, people call the northern part of Hudson County North Hudson..." (Reywas92)

:*Find two proper sources that actually define the term and I'll change my vote to a keep. SportingFlyer T·C 21:04, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

:::{{ping|SportingFlyer}}

:::{{cite web|url=https://hudsonreporter.com/2018/05/13/meet-neighbors-in-north-hudson/|title=Meet neighbors in North Hudson|first1=Hannington|last1=Dia|first2=Staff|last2=Writer|date=13 May 2018|publisher= Hudson Reporter|accessdate=23 June 2019 |quote = “Only in NoHu,” a group for people in North Bergen, Weehawken, West New York, Guttenberg, and Union City – all in northern Hudson County.}}

:::{{cite web |title = North Hudson Regional Fire and Rescue|url = http://northhudsonfire.com/ |accessdate = June 25, 2019 |quote = "Covering the North Hudson towns of Guttenberg, North Bergen, Union City, Weehawken and West New York"}}

:::{{Citation |last = Varone |first = Curtis |title = Legal Considerations for Fire and Emergency Services |publisher = Fire Enginering Books |year = 2014 |url = https://books.google.fr/books?id=SZiNBAAAQBAJ&pg=PA481&dq=latinos+north+hudson+new+jersey&hl=fr&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjcnvu904XjAhXoAWMBHe0OC9IQ6AEILTAA#v=onepage&q=latinos%20north%20hudson%20new%20jersey&f=false |isbn = 9781593703479 |quote= North Hudson's Residency Requirement}}

:::{{cite web |title = NJ Employment Discrimination in Hiring North Hudson County Firefighters |publisher = Castronovo & McKinney |year = 2011

|url = https://www.cmlaw.com/nj-employment-discrimination-in-hiring-north-hudson-county-firefighters/ |accessdate = June 24, 2019|quote = ...comprised of five towns in northern Hudson County – Guttenberg, North Bergen, Union City, Weehawken, and West New York}}

:::{{cite web|url=https://www.nj.com/jjournal-news/2011/12/court_rules_north_hudson_regio.html|title=Court rules North Hudson Regional Fire and Rescue residency policy discriminates against blacks|first=John|last=Heinis|date=15 December 2011|website=nj.com|accessdate=26 June 2019 |quote = ...as of 2000, the population of North Hudson’s member municipalities North Bergen, Weehawken, West New York, Guttenberg and Union City...}}

:::{{cite web|url=https://www.workplaceclassaction.com/2011/12/disparate-impact-case-turns-on-battle-of-the-experts/|title=Disparate Impact Case Turns On Battle Of The Experts|date=15 December 2011|website=Workplace Class Action Blog|accessdate=26 June 2019 | quote = North Hudson fire department was formed in 1998, and it was comprised of firefighters from five New Jersey municipalities, including Guttenberg, North Bergen, Union City, Weehawken, and West New York. North Hudson maintained a requirement that all firefighter candidates must live within the five North Hudson towns to be eligible for hire...}}

:::{{cite web |title = Jersey City, Hudson River Waterfront Transportation Corridor Improvements, Hudson-Bergen Light Rail Transit System (HBLRTS), Hudson County, Bergen County: Environmental Impact Statement |publisher = Federal Transit Administration |year = 1996 |page = Waterfront Study Area Districts Figure 4.5 (map) |url = https://books.google.fr/books?id=WyA3AQAAMAAJ&pg=SA4-PA16&dq=Jersey+city,+Hudson+River+Waterfront+Study+Area+Districts++Figure+4.5+North+Hudson&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwipuP2voZLjAhUJxYUKHfeGAiIQ6AEIKDAA#v=onepage&q=Jersey%20city%2C%20Hudson%20River%20Waterfront%20Study%20Area%20Districts%20%20Figure%204.5%20North%20Hudson&f=false |accessdate = June 30, 2019}}

::: Djflem (talk) 14:28, 26 June 2019 (UTC)

::: Djflem (talk) 22:41, 30 June 2019 (UTC)

• HEY. Current version (after revision) should be basis for any discussion. Above references should be addressed. Djflem (talk) 13:39, 28 June 2019 (UTC)
• Comment As with Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/West Essex, (a distinct part of Essex County, New Jersey) which the Wikipedia community has overwhelmingly decided is a place, both North Hudson and West Hudson are recognizable distinct regions. To keep one and not others is inconsistent and diminishes Wikipedia's validity as a encyclopedia.Djflem (talk) 08:44, 29 June 2019 (UTC)

• Keep - I scoured it and can't find anything promotional or COI. When you've got a well written, encyclopedic article that is well references, in the absence of COI or Promotion or this just being made up, I would give the benefit of the doubt that people call it that in that area and commonly see it as such. Cheerio042 (talk) 20:02, 4 July 2019 (UTC) Striking blocked sock Britishfinance (talk) 10:48, 7 July 2019 (UTC)

::Just because it's not promotional or COI does not mean it should be kept. What reason do you actually have for it to be kept? I can assure you that people in that area do not commonly use the term "North Hudson" since I lived near that area. You must come up with examples of reliable sources that use this term in reference to the area.--Rusf10 (talk) 00:54, 5 July 2019 (UTC)

::::As editor said, "When you've got a well written, encyclopedic article that is well references, in the absence of COI or Promotion..." Rustof10 claims & assurances are of no import here. Reliable sources are found in the the article and above. Rustof10 has chosen not to review them and continues to base their argument on personal experience or lack thereof (The best I can tell; I have never heard of anyone...;I can assure you that people in that area...;). Wikipedia:IKNOWIT is a compeletely invalid, but they keep repeating it, rather than addressing the references provided. When is Rusf10 going to address the facts? Djflem (talk) 05:35, 5 July 2019 (UTC)

:::Just repeating first-hand WP:OR doesn't make for a convincing argument in a WP:NOR environment. (Also please excuse my repetition:) StonyBrook (talk) 04:55, 5 July 2019 (UTC)

::::What editor said above:"I scoured it".... "When you've got a well written, encyclopedic article that is well references, [sic] in the absence of COI or Promotion..." it would seem that you need to specifically state what is OR. Please do. Djflem (talk) 06:13, 5 July 2019 (UTC)

:::::This quote from before {{tq|I can assure you that people in that area do not commonly use the term "North Hudson" since I lived near that area.}} Sounds pretty OR to me. StonyBrook (talk) 10:05, 5 July 2019 (UTC)

::::::{{yo|StonyBrook}}If I'm wrong, then find actual sources. Everything presented so far represents WP:SYNTH (ie. there's a north hudson fire department, park, sewage authority, etc. so there must be a "North Hudson"). And {{yo|Djflem}} please stop WP:BLUDGEONing. You now have more edits in this discussion then everyone else combined!--Rusf10 (talk) 02:00, 6 July 2019 (UTC)

:::::::{{yo|Rusf10}} You're Wikipedia:NOTGETTINGIT. The references are in the article and above. Please address them.Djflem (talk) 06:08, 6 July 2019 (UTC)

• Disambiguate I think there is merit to have this article about a place name that doesn't exist as a legal entity, even though it isn't as widely found in the sources as say North Jersey or Lower Manhattan, but I would nevertheless want to see it placed at North Hudson, which in turn should go to North Hudson (disambiguation) North Hudson (New Jersey) because the current way is simply non-standard. StonyBrook (talk) 10:17, 5 July 2019 (UTC)

::{{ping|StonyBrook}} Yes, that would be correct way to disambiguate & make standard.Djflem (talk) 05:51, 6 July 2019 (UTC)

• Keep - well-sourced article about a definable place. "Importance" is not the same as notability, which this passes. Bearian (talk) 16:48, 8 July 2019 (UTC)

{{clear}}

:The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.