Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Perendi

:{{la|Perendi}} – (View AfDView log{{•}} {{plainlink|1=http://toolserver.org/~betacommand/cgi-bin/afdparser?afd={{urlencode:Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Perendi}}|2=AfD statistics}})

:({{Find sources|Perendi}})

Unsourced sub-stub on an alleged figure of Albanian folk mythology (cf. Prende, a related article). Was originally sourced to "Encyclopedia Mythica", recently debunked as a thoroughly unreliable source (Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive214#Unreliable source alert: "Encyclopedia Mythica" (pantheon.org)) Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:55, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

:Comment [http://books.google.com/books?*d=AbQC8gHtzycC&pg=PA259&dq=prende+perendi&hl=en&ei=6y82TMfvG8O78gb9orTyAw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=book-thumbnail&resnum=1&ved=0CCgQ6wEwAA#v=onepage&q=prende%20perendi&f=false this source] covers both Prende and Perendi. Does WP mean that it's taken from Wikipedia? --_Sulmues ^{Let's talk} 20:09, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

• Actually I found many more sources. See [http://books.google.com/books?id=hRxVytIiDGIC&pg=PA151&dq=prende+perendi&hl=en&ei=6y82TMfvG8O78gb9orTyAw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=book-thumbnail&resnum=7&ved=0CEUQ6wEwBg#v=onepage&q=prende%20perendi&f=false this] for Prende and Perendi, which comes much earlier than WP. --_Sulmues ^{Let's talk} 20:11, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
• The Websters source you quoted first is indeed copied from Wikipedia ("WP"). "Wicca Love Spells" sounds unreliable. Some other sources might work. Is there something in that Elsie dictionary? Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:25, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
• Yes indeed, not only that (p. 257) but also in the Routledge dictionary, for both Prende and Perendi [http://www.google.com/search?q=dictionary%20of%20Albanian%20religion%2C%20mythology%20and%20folk%20culture%20prende&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-SearchBox&oe=UTF-8&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbo=u&tbs=bks:1&source=og&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wp]. --_Sulmues ^{Let's talk} 20:57, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
• I can see "Prende" mentioned on Elsie p.257 (as a synonym of Saint Paraskevi of Rome), but no mention of "Perendi". Am I missing something? The Routledge dictionary link doesn't show me enough text to judge. Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:08, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
• Beware of citing Icon Group International books as sources. Uncle G (talk) 21:43, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
• Keep. Some of [http://www.google.com/search?tbs=bks%3A1&tbo=1&q=%22Perendi%22+Albanian+-inpublisher%3Aicon these search results] indicate that this topic is worthy of inclusion. -- Blanchardb -^{Me•MyEars•MyMouth}- timed 20:23, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
• As far as I can see, all these sources only mention "Perendi" as an Albanian name of God, but not as any separate mythological personality. Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:04, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
• Although there's something interesting, at least from an etymological perspective, [http://books.google.com/books?id=ATdexS8oG5AC&pg=PA6&dq=%22Perendi%22+Albanian+-inpublisher:icon&hl=de&ei=sT42TIL8EuWpsQbO-8GLBA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=8&ved=0CE4Q6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=%22Perendi%22%20Albanian%20-inpublisher%3Aicon&f=false here]. So, from that source, I could write something along the lines of "Perendi is an Albanian name for God. It is thought to derive from the name of a pre-Christian sky god, etymologically related to names of ancient sky deities in several other Indo-European languages, such as Lithuanian Perkunas and Vedic Paranyas." But where? As a standalone entry, this would probably go against WP:NOTDICT, because it's purely about the word, not about the hypothetical deity itself (about which little or nothing seems to be known). Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:13, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
• Keep - Multiple reliable sources verify that Perendi was a distinct Albanian mythological figure: (1) "[http://www.google.com/#hl=en&tbs=bks%3A1&q=Perendi+Prende&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&fp=927ed357e21039b4 PRENDE is an ancient Illyrian love-goddess who was the consort of the thunder-god Perendi]", (2) "[http://books.google.com/books?id=Vtj0wSsw1JcC&pg=PA155&dq=Prende+%22queen+of+beauty%22&hl=en&ei=aE82TPOYJYOB8ga9j9HeAw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CDsQ6AEwAw Prende (north Albanian Prenne) Old Illyrian goddess of love, the female partner of the thunder-god Perendi. Today, she is nothing more than a Catholic saint, but in Albanian folk-belief she still rates 'queen of beauty' ... As is usual in many cultures, here too Friday is the day sacred to the goddess of love.]"   — C M B J   23:25, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
• Please be more careful about detail: this does not show a "distinct Albanian mythological figure". Everything we've seen about actual Albanian culture shows only a name for "God". It's conjectured on etymological grounds to have been a distinct deity in pre-Christian, i.e. pre-Albanian times. And please don't cite items like The Secrets of Love Magick or Webster's Quotations, Facts and Phrases: the first is clearly not a reliable source, the second is sourced to Wikipedia. Fut.Perf. ☼ 06:44, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

:::I honestly don't see how the second book could be any more unequivocal in that Perendi and Prende were once distinct Illyrian mythological figures, and it was published before either of the two Wikipedia articles were even created. I did not ever cite Webster's Quotations, Facts and Phrases, because, as you said, it cites Wikipedia and is not a reliable source. Seeing as modern usage of Perëndi is similar to that of Allah, we could perhaps move this article to Perendi (folklore) and disambiguate the main entry.   — C M B J   09:39, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

:::: Read more closely what I wrote: I said Perendi is not described as an Albanian mythological personality. About the Webster's Quotations, that's where your first link [http://www.google.com/#hl=en&tbs=bks%3A1&q=Perendi+Prende&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&fp=927ed357e21039b4] seemed to lead. Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:41, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

:::: (after ec): I really don't see how the split/move scenario should work out. What exactly would "Perendi (folklore)" be about? We essentially don't have anything about modern "folklore" regarding this name (unlike about Prende); we only know it's a name of God. And the ancient ("Illyrian" or otherwise pre-Christian) tradition is not part of "folklore", and we basically have no concrete information about it either, other than a piece of etymological conjecture leading to the hypothesis that such a god existed. Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:02, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

:::::Seeing as the mythological figure of Prende seems to have transcended both Illyrian and Albanian cultures, it is at least vaguely possible that Perendi has as well. I found this source, but the implication seems ambiguous at best: "[http://books.google.com/books?id=-HA9AAAAYAAJ&pg=PA320&dq=%22Albanian+thunder+god+of+Illyrian+origin.+%22&hl=en&ei=jPM2TIXDNIO8lQeHk8XVBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=8&ved=0CE0Q6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=perendi&f=false ... the god of lightning and thunder ... Perendi of the Albanians or ancient Illyrians]". Either way, for the sake of AfD, the difference is trivial; nonetheless, it was a keen observation. The folklore really is that Perendi was a mythological god of thunder, which in retrospect shares a common theme with Perun and Perkūnas. Perendi was derived from the same source as the other two, but it was adapted to Illyrian culture, as observed by becoming the consort of Prende.   — C M B J   10:37, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

:::::: You seem not to be aware how speculative this all is. The book link you cited now is to a work from 1829 – a time when Indo-European etymology was in its infancy, linguistic relationships of Albanian hadn't yet been researched at all, and knowledge of Illyrian was absolutely zero. There's no way that source could possibly be reliable. And you seem to be unaware how thorough our ignorance of Illyrian and the other ancient Balkanian cultures still is today. You sound as if we knew something about Illyrian gods. We don't. Nothing. The Illyrians didn't leave any written records. The only piece of evidence everything here is based on, is the mere fact of the existence of this word in modern Albanian. Everything else is conjecture: that it was a pre-Christian god, that that god would have been a sky/weather god, that he was a "consort" to a second deity related to "Prende", and that the pre-Christian culture in which all this happened was the Illyrian one (the latter conjecture is based on the hypothesis of Illyrian descent of the Albanians, which is taken for granted by some authors, but treated as a highly speculative conentious hypothesis by the actual experts.) Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:04, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Albania-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 23:34, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Religion-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 23:34, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

:Keep Notable. Dr. Blofeld ^{White cat} 12:53, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

:Keep. We have good secondary sources from Orel and Gramkelidze, as well as many tertiary sources (dictionaries of mythologies). If any, we should do a redirect to Perëndi, but I would disagree, because the latter would be standard Albanian, hence the move is a little controversial. --_Sulmues ^{Let's talk} 14:47, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

:The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.