Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Tom Kelleher (Councillor)

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Non notable local councillor in Ireland. Fails WP:Politician. Article appears to be created to promote his candidacy in forthcoming Irish general election. Snappy (talk) 17:42, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Ireland-related deletion discussions. —Snappy (talk) 17:43, 19 February 2011 (UTC)
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Politicians-related deletion discussions. —Snappy (talk) 17:43, 19 February 2011 (UTC)
• Keep as the former mayor of Fingal which has about 240,000 people, he meets WP:POLITICIAN. His current candidacy for another political office is not relevant. Cullen328 (talk) 23:00, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

:Just to bear in mind that the Mayor of an Irish local government council is an honorary position that a councillor can hold for one year. It is not directly elected and confers no powers on the holder. The holder has no more powers or privilege than any other councillor. It is not equivalent to an American Mayor in any way. Snappy (talk) 23:38, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

::Some mayors in the United States are elected the same way - by their fellow council members rather than all the voters. I live in a city that had that method for many years, before changing to direct election a few years ago. I still think he qualifies as notable, given the population of Fingal, and his past office. Cullen328 (talk) 02:57, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

• Comment, as the editor who 'approved' the article (coming from articles for creation), I somewhat verified notability, and it appeared he met WP:Politician as far as mayor and 'regional importance' go. That the term mayor varies between jurisdiction is another matter, and if this is the main issue here, then it has to be clarified in the guideline : Generally speaking, mayors of cities of at least regional importance are likely to meet this criterion, as are members of the main citywide government or council of a major metropolitan city. CharlieEchoTango]] 08:17, 20 February 2011 (UTC)
• Delete - as he was not elected specifically as a mayor. Ordinary councillors take it in turns.Red Hurley (talk) 14:33, 20 February 2011 (UTC)
• Delete As Red Hurley. Most British mayors are appointed in this way, though there are exceptions such as the Mayor of London. The problem is that there are other more important positions, such as Leader of the Council in England, which would need to be recognised as notable if we accept mayors automatically. Mr Kelleher can be considered notable if he makes it to TD. If there is widespread disagreement on this I suggest referring for a wider discussion on the policy on notability of local politicians. AJHingston (talk) 20:49, 20 February 2011 (UTC)
• Keep I feel the article is relevant as it meets point 1 of WP:Politician. I also feel it is his nomination for election that makes it notable. I can point to several other articles with similar subjects that are currently on wikipedia such as http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mick_Barry_(Irish_Socialist_Party), http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._J._Power and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clare_Daly and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Mitchell_O'Connor

:Also a Mayor in Fingal is elected by councillors. The councillors do not simply "take turns." see: http://www.fingal-independent.ie/premium/news/byrne-elected-mayor-of-fingal-1785752.html

:it should alsobe noted that the position of Mayor or (Cathaoirleach as it is called on some councils), while not as powerful as most American mayors is more than a honourary position. From Citizensinformation.ie:

:Role and responsibilities of the Cathaoirleach

:The Cathaoirleach takes the chair (or presides) at meetings of the local authority. On an occasion where this is an equal division of votes on an issue, they may exercise a second or casting vote (except however, in the case of when a new Cathaoirleach is being elected). The Cathaoirleach is responsible for the conduct of business and maintenance of order at meetings and can call for (or requisition) a special meeting of the council and obtain information from the County Manager on relevant matters. http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/government_in_ireland/local_and_regional_government/cathaoirleach_of_the_council.html Gallac8 (talk) 12:38, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

::That is very similar to the role of the mayor on England, who is also normally elected by fellow concillors, but I would not say that it really confers notability in any real and lasting sense. Aside from chairing meetings it is a largely ceremonial role and the holder is expected to be politically neutral for their time in office. It can be difficult to get anyone with the time or inclination to do it even in cases where the office includes robes and chain of office, being driven around and being treated as important on formal occasions. In general, just being a candidate for the national legislature does not meet the notability guidelines. If we say that having been mayor is automatically notable, it is unreasonable to deny a rival politician who has spent, say, several years as leader of the council, which is politically the most important position on a council and has executive powers. Then others will argue that their own position/experience is at least as notable, and that isn't difficult by comparison with the post of mayor. There are very good reasons why Wikipedia tries to have firm guidelines about people who are standing for election, and there will always be some who slip through - if so that is what this process is about. AJHingston (talk) 14:06, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

:::Totally agree. Also, Gallac8 should refrain from using the "What about X?" argument per WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS. This discussion relates to the notability of Tom Kelleher, not anyone else. Snappy (talk) 18:09, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

Fair enough, I'm quite new to this whole thing. Gallac8 (talk) 00:45, 22 February 2011 (UTC)gallac8

• Delete. per nom and red hurley. Kittybrewster ☎ 11:03, 22 February 2011 (UTC)
• Delete - being a mayor is not in itself sufficient evidence of notability, nor is being a candidate in an election. No indication that his other activities are particularly noteworthy. Can obviously be recreated if he is elected on Friday. Warofdreams talk 12:38, 22 February 2011 (UTC)
• Keep He was an elected mayor of Fingal which is one of the counties of Ireland. He definitely meets WP:POLITICIAN. --Viticulturist99 (talk) 01:36, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
• Delete Some of the keep votes above are quoting this guideline Generally speaking, mayors of cities of at least regional importance are likely to meet this criterion, as are members of the main citywide government or council of a major metropolitan city but there is no way that Fingal meets any of those criteria. It's a half rural/half suburban council with the largest population centre having only 90k. That's not a major metropolitan centre and neither is it a city of regional importance since it's on the fringes of Dublin City (whose mayor would qualify.) There's nothing else of substance in the article not connected with his election bid. In the unlikely event he wins a seat on Friday the article can be recreated. Valenciano (talk) 06:25, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

::fingal not being of regional importance is a subjective opinion and one that would not be shared by most of those in the region. Also this is hardly the place for your comments on whether the subject will be elected or not. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gallac8 (talk • contribs) 13:26, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

:::There's a fair chance that it wouldn't be shared by most of those in the county, many people often believe that their little burgh is the centre of the universe but that's not how it works. Why do you claim Fingal is of regional importance? Is it the centre of a larger region? Why would it be a regional centre and not Dublin? Just saying "it's important, so there" is unlikely to sway anyone.

:::For me, Fingal is definitely not a major metropolitan city, it consists of areas which are by and large commuter areas for Dublin city, which is the main urban centre. According to the article: Blanchardstown is the largest urban area. Well here's what the Blanchardstown article says: "Blanchardstown is the largest village within the historical Barony of Castleknock. It is also extends into an outer suburb of Dublin within the administrative county of Fingal." Very hard to see from that the importance of a council, the largest urban area in which is described as a mix of a large village and a suburb of a major city nearby. The articles on Castleknock and the other villages therein make clear that their population growth is entirely due to them being satellite areas of Dublin City.

:::My comments on whether the subject is elected or not are precisely the point. If he's elected he'll be notable as he will then meet the politician guidelines, for now Mayor of suburban council X definitely doesn't. Valenciano (talk) 14:56, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

• Delete. I feel that is has been reasonably argued that the subject is not the "Mayor" as intended in the guideline. Thus, he falls under the category of Councilor in my opinion. Per WP:POLITICIAN "as are members of the main citywide government or council of a major metropolitan city", the town is not a major metropolitan city. Also, concerning Gallac8's comments right above me, I disagree. This is the perfect place for Valenciano's opinion on whether or not the subject will be elected to higher office. This is a discussion. It would only be WP:CRYSTAL if it said "Keep - subject will be elected". However, suggesting that the article can be recreated if the subject is elected (paraphrased) is a valid opinion. As far as regional importance being subjective opinion, that is the purpose of discussion and coming to consensus. If it were not subjective, there would be no need for discussion.--v/r - TP 13:46, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
• Keep. As an Irish editor, I confirm that Fingal is an important county, so the elected mayor of it is notable as per WP:POLITICIAN. --Badvibes101 (talk) 14:16, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

:Per Snappy, mayor is not elected. Is Snappy wrong?--v/r - TP 14:22, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

::Of course, he is wrong. Councillors don't just take turns; mayor is elected by the councillors. --Badvibes101 (talk) 14:31, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

:::Your being Irish counts for zilch as I'm also Irish, as is the nominator and several others commenting here so your confirmation of your own opinion means nothing. The Politician guideline says nothing about "important counties" it says "mayors of cities of at least regional importance are likely to meet this criterion, as are members of the main citywide government or council of a major metropolitan city." Fingal is not even a city nevermind a major metropolitan city. Neither is it a regional centre, being in County Dublin where the regional centre is, y'know, Dublin. Valenciano (talk) 15:05, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

::::It may come as a big surprise for you Valenciano but County Dublin actually doesn't exist anymore. We have Dublin City, South Dublin, Fingal, Dun-Laoghaire-Rathdown. Can't see why mayor of Dublin City is notable and mayor of South Dublin isn't. After all, he is head of the whole county, so has to be notable. --Badvibes101 (talk) 18:39, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

:::::Kindly read what I wrote properly. I wrote the Mayor "is not directly elected", so I am correct. Kelleher was elected to the council, not as Mayor. All an Irish Mayor does is wear a fancy chain for a year, chair a few council meetings and cut a few ribbons. Snappy (talk) 21:17, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

::::::You're right Snappy, you said the mayor "is not directly elected", indeed. TParis misquoted you - and I didn't check the quote. Sorry. --Badvibes101 (talk) 00:06, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

:::::::Except I didn't quote Snappy, I paraphrased his comment. Do you see any quote marks? Don't blame me that you didn't read the entire discussion. You would've known Snappy's comment before I referred to it.--v/r - TP 13:37, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

::::::::You didn't misquote him but you changed the meaning of what he said. You asked me a direct question and I gave you a direct answer. I had no way of knowing what Snappy had possibly said in other discussions, and I surely wouldn't be able to check all the contributions of such a prolific editor. --Badvibes101 (talk) 21:26, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

:::::::::I'll admit the meaning sounds different now but it wasn't my intention to be misleading. It wasn't in another discussion though, somewhere near the top of this discussion Snappy made a comment and that is what I was referring to.--v/r - TP 01:34, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

:::::@Badvibes: County Dublin doesn't exist in an administrative sense but it does in many other senses and Blanchardstown or "Fingal" are certainly not the centres of it. If you want to nitpick about it, the 1991 local government act which you refer to establishes regional authorities. The one for Fingal is the Dublin Region. Now which city do you suppose is the centre of that region which meets the criteria in WP:POLITICIAN?

:::::You ask why the mayor of Dublin City is notable but the mayor of Fingal isn't? Well first off Dublin, besides having about 1.1 million people, is a national capital. Fingal is neither a national capital nor a major urban centre: it contains a few suburbs of Dublin city, none of which has over 90k. There's also the little matter of the Politician guideline. That sets out who is and who isn't notable and that guideline doesn't say that any old Mayor of any old County is notable. Here's what it says: "Generally speaking, mayors of cities of at least regional importance are likely to meet this criterion, as are members of the main citywide government or council of a major metropolitan city." See? Nothing about counties, so arguing on the basis of what you think should be notable, while ignoring the guideline which specifically sets out exactly who is notable even after it's been pointed out to you won't cut it. Valenciano (talk) 21:43, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

:::::::Pity there isn't anything about counties in WP:POLITICIAN, which makes the guidelines not only vague but sometimes absurd: is a Mayor of a big Irish county, e.g. Co. Mayo, not notable? Or less notable than a Mayor of a small city like Kilkenny (or is it still a town)? The Mayor of Fingal County is not a Mayor of Swords; he's in charge of the whole county, which is of regional importance. It is the question of how we apply the guidelines. --Badvibes101 (talk) 00:15, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

::::::::The guidelines don't even say that Mayors of large cities are automatically notable, they simply say that mayors of large cities who have been sufficiently written about in depth are notable. In depth generally means they've had some kind of bio in the national press. Politicians at Kelleher's level generally only get routine coverage in the local paper "Mayor X was at the opening of the local library" / "Mayor X complained about the closure of the local nursery" etc and those definitely aren't sufficient for notability. All that said, polls in Ireland are closing in less than an hours time so I don't see a problem with waiting until the result is announced, likely to be late tomorrow or Sunday. Valenciano (talk) 21:11, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

• Keep Fingal is a city of 222,000 population. That's large enough that the mayor can be considered notable--regardless of the election results for Seanad Éireann. DGG ( talk ) 00:39, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

:Have you read *anything* that anyone has said above? Fingal is not a city, it's a collection of villages and Dublin commuter suburbs, therefore your keep rationale is invalid as it is based on a faulty understanding of what Fingal is. Valenciano (talk) 15:28, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

re:valentino- guidelines don't mention anything about national versus regional press. are these your own private guidelines? can we have a look at them?Gallac8 (talk) 00:46, 26 February 2011 (UTC)gallac8

:No they're not private, they're there in WP:POLITICIAN backed up by past precedent in countless AFDs for politicians. Every local mayor will get a quote or two in the local press, every election candidate will get coverage in a local paper, yet every mayor and election candidate per previous afds is not notable. Kelleher is a clear example of this. Valenciano (talk) 15:28, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

also a quick read of the sources in the article will show 2 bios of the subject in national press organs Gallac8 (talk) 00:50, 26 February 2011 (UTC)gallac8

:The sources are local media, the national ones only mentioned him as a candidate, they are not about him. Read the guidelines again - "Generally, a person who is "part of the enduring historical record" will have been written about, in depth, independently in multiple history books on that field, by historians. A politician who has received "significant press coverage" has been written about, in depth, independently in multiple news feature articles, by journalists." I don't think Kelleher meets these criteria. Snappy (talk) 10:18, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

::If we allow TK then most councillors will be on wiki at some point as they take it in turns. Colm Purcell is the current "mayor" of County Kildare and while he has been prominent in local politics for decades he has never been elected to the Dáil, which is the sensible cut-off point. A local authority "mayor" is primus inter pares and no more. It is a fairly new title since the 1990s. He would be a one-year chairman / cathoirleach otherwise, which doesn't sound quite so impressive. That is the reality.Red Hurley (talk) 11:48, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

:The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.