Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 August 21

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: Rename The late additions by Santasa99 will have to be brought to a new nomination. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 16:55, 10 September 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose renaming :Category:Abkhazian culture to :Category:Culture of Abkhazia – main article: Culture of Abkhazia

:* Propose renaming :Category:Albanian culture‎ to :Category:Culture of Albania – main article: Culture of Albania

:* Propose renaming :Category:Andorran culture to :Category:Culture of Andorra – main article: Culture of Andorra

:* Propose renaming :Category:Armenian culture to :Category:Culture of Armenia – main article: Culture of Armenia

:* Propose renaming :Category:Austrian culture to :Category:Culture of Austria – main article: Culture of Austria

:* Propose renaming :Category:Azerbaijani culture to :Category:Culture of Azerbaijan – main article: Culture of Azerbaijan

:* Propose renaming :Category:Belarusian culture to :Category:Culture of Belarus – main article: Culture of Belarus

:* Propose renaming :Category:Belgian culture‎ to :Category:Culture of Belgium – main article: Culture of Belgium

:* Propose renaming :Category:Bosnia and Herzegovina culture‎ to :Category:Culture of Bosnia and Herzegovina – main article: Culture of Bosnia and Herzegovina

:* Propose renaming :Category:British culture to :Category:Culture of the United Kingdom – main article: Culture of the United Kingdom

:* Propose renaming :Category:Bulgarian culture to :Category:Culture of Bulgaria – main article: Culture of Bulgaria

:* Propose renaming :Category:Croatian culture to :Category:Culture of Croatia – main article: Culture of Croatia

:* Propose renaming :Category:Cypriot culture‎ to :Category:Culture of Cyprus – main article: Culture of Cyprus

:* Propose renaming :Category:Czech culture‎ to :Category:Culture of the Czech Republic – main article: Culture of the Czech Republic

:* Propose renaming :Category:Danish culture‎ to :Category:Culture of Denmark – main article: Culture of Denmark

:* Propose renaming :Category:Estonian culture‎ to :Category:Culture of Estonia – main article: Culture of Estonia

:* Propose renaming :Category:Finnish culture‎ to :Category:Culture of Finland – main article: Culture of Finland

:* Propose renaming :Category:French culture‎ to :Category:Culture of France – main article: Culture of France

:* Propose renaming :Category:German culture‎ to :Category:Culture of Germany – main article: Culture of Germany

:* Propose renaming :Category:Hungarian culture‎ to :Category:Culture of Hungary – main article: Culture of Iceland

:* Propose renaming :Category:Icelandic culture‎ to :Category:Culture of Iceland – main article: Culture of Abkhazia

:* Propose renaming :Category:Italian culture‎ to :Category:Culture of Italy – main article: Culture of Italy

:Nominator's rationale: WP:C2C (all are in Category:European culture by country) & WP:C2D (all main articles are called {{xt|Culture of Fooland}}). Follow-up to consensus established at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 August 9#Fooian culture to Culture of Fooland. I recommend leaving a redirect (already exists in 3 cases). Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 21:38, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

:* Renamings that have already been agreed to in the past:

:** {{yeac}} 2009: :Category:Georgian culture was Renamed to :Category:Culture of Georgia (country)

:** {{yeac}} 2010: :Category:Northern Irish culture was Renamed to :Category:Culture of Northern Ireland‎

:** {{yeac}} 30 March 2023: :Category:Irish culture was Renamed to :Category:Culture of the Republic of Ireland‎

:** {{yeac}} 2 days ago: :Category:Dutch culture‎ was Renamed to :Category:Culture of the Netherlands

:** {{yeac}} 2 days ago: :Category:Greek culture‎ was Renamed to :Category:Culture of Greece

:: Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 21:51, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

:::Speedy rename per WP:C2C and predecent consensus was opposed by @Marcelus: {{xt|Oppose, foonian culture and culture of foo isn't the same.}} Further talks resulted in the decision to move to full.

:::Pinging participants from previous discussion for this follow-up: {{ping|Marcocapelle|Laurel Lodged|Fayenatic london}} for your consideration. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 22:05, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

::::@Nederlandse Leeuw please inform all potentially inerested Wikiprojects Marcelus (talk) 22:07, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

::Culture of foo is much better category name, as it is much broader. For example, Hungarian culture includes the culture of Hungary, but also, for example, the culture of Hungarians in Romania or in the USA. Besides, the borders are changing. Franz Liszt was born outside modern Hungary. Marcelus (talk) 22:45, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

• I am no longer opposing this. A while back I read it as "Culture in Fooland" and therefore opposed it because I thought it would exclude expatriates. But in hindsight "Culture of Fooland" still covers that too. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:36, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
• :Fooian culture also covers expatriates, and is much broader in general, because not linked to a particular country, but to a culture as a whole; care to elaborate why you are advocating narrower scope? Logically culture of Foo should be a subcategory of Fooian culture, not replacing it. Marcelus (talk) 06:01, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

::* As said, I no longer think that it narrows the scope. Marcocapelle (talk) 17:42, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

• Support, following renaming of "society" categories likewise, here and here. I think I opposed these in the past, on the basis that culture also applies in the diasporas, but as Marcocapelle says, this is not a conclusive objection. – Fayenatic London 06:37, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
• Rationale expanded: WP:C2C (all are in Category:European culture by country) & WP:C2D (all main articles are called {{xt|Culture of Fooland}}). This helps new participants understand the nomination. The main article names are the more important argument than consistency in category tree naming. WP:C2D can take precedence over WP:C2C. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 12:55, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
• Comment I might add the observation that since the early days of English Wikipedia, roughly {{circa}} 2001-2006, all articles in this category were created under the title of {{xt|Culture of Fooland}}, while in the {{circa}} 2003-2008, all the redirects called {{xt|Fooian culture}} were created to redirect readers to {{xt|Culture of Fooland}}. The move logs don't always accurately preserve the early history of renaming or deleting pages, but it may be that in the early days some articles were originally named {{xt|Fooian culture}} (which is why the first sentence of these articles may still feature the boldened phrase {{xt|Fooian culture}} today), but they were moved to avoid confusion with the language of the same name. In other cases, {{tq|Culture of Fooland}} already existed, and {{xt|Fooian culture}} was created as a redirect to it (far more common). Around the same time, subcategories of countries were created about that country's culture. E.g. {{xt|Category:Barland}} would have a subcategory named {{xt|Barian culture}}. From June 2004 onwards, these subcategories were all grouped into :Category:Culture by country.

{{cot|Some examples}}

::* [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:MobileDiff/3068234 At 17:50 23 February 2003], in the article Culture of Greece, a user changed the first and only full sentence from {{tq|The culture of Greek people.}} to {{tq|The culture of Greek people.}}, thus pointing readers of {{tq|Culture of Greece}} to the article Greece (about the country) rather than Greek (about the language).

:::*One minute later [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Greek_culture&oldid=16072086 at 17:51 23 February 2003], Greek culture was created as a redirect to Culture of Greece with the edit summary {{tq|"moved on Culture_of_Greece"}} by the same user. Either this page did not yet exist (more likely), or it was the original title of Culture of Greece. Either way, the user in question was busy [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:MobileDiff/739065 disambiguating language links]. Using "Greece" instead of "Greek" was done to distinguish country from language.

::::* [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Category:Culture_of_Greece&oldid=4023454 On 10 June 2004, Category:Greek culture was created] as a subcategory of :Category:Greece, and [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Category:Culture_of_Greece&direction=next&oldid=4135800 a few days later] the subcategory :Category:Culture by country was added. From the very beginning, this category has been about the culture of the country.

::* :Category:Polish culture was [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Category:Polish_culture&direction=prev&oldid=7212297 created on 15 June 2004] as a subcategory of :Category:Poland, and [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Category:Polish_culture&direction=next&oldid=4265095 a few days later] the subcategory :Category:Culture by country was added. From the very beginning, this category has been about the culture of the country.

:::* [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Culture_of_Poland&oldid=11322216 On 20 March 2005, Piotrus created] Culture of Poland: {{tq|Culture of Poland is closely connected to the 1000 years of history of Poland. (...) :Category:Polish culture}}.

::::* [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Polish_culture&oldid=17303685 On 22 March 2005, Piotrus created] Polish culture as a redirect to Culture of Poland.

::* [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Category:Latvian_culture&oldid=13252741 On 2 June 2004,] :Category:Latvian culture was created as a subcategory of :Category:latvia, and [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Category:Latvian_culture&diff=prev&oldid=16514062 11 months later] the subcategory :Category:Culture by country was added. From the very beginning, this category has been about the culture of the country.

:::* [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Culture_of_Latvia&oldid=131143138On 15 May 2007] Culture of Latvia was created.

::::* [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Latvian_culture&oldid=155577150 On 4 September 2007] Latvian culture was created as a redirect to Culture of Latvia.

{{cob}}

: And this pattern holds true for almost all these articles and their redirects in the 2000s. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 12:55, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

:* Comment The following main articles were moved from {{xt|Fooian culture}} to {{xt|Culture of Fooland}}:

::* Hungarian culture [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hungarian_culture&redirect=no was merged into] Culture of Hungary after agreement (2017)

::*[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&logid=120752068 Russian culture was moved] to Culture of Russia (2021).

:: Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 15:18, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

:::But we are debating the scope of categories, not articles, aren't we? Marcelus (talk) 15:24, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

::::They are the same. They have always been the same. Both the main articles and the connected categories have always included expatriates, and the spreading or influence of the culture of Fooland abroad.

::::E.g. from the day that Culture of Greece was created [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Culture_of_Greece&oldid=695435 on 23 February 2003], it included a reference to (Ancient) Greek philosophy, which originated in Ancient Greece, but spread around Asia, Africa and Europe later. [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ancient_Greek_philosophy&oldid=1402404 At the time, the article (Ancient) Greek philosophy] indicated: {{tq|There are clear unbroken lines of influence from early Greek philosophers, through early Muslim philosophy especially the Mutazilite school, to the Renaissance and hence the secular sciences of the modern day.}} There has never been the suggestion that just because the article is named Culture of Greece, we can't talk about how that culture spread abroad outside Greece. Today, Culture of Greece#Philosophy, science and mathematics states: {{tq|The tradition of philosophy in ancient Greece accompanied its literary development. Greek learning had a profound influence on Western and Middle Eastern civilizations. The works of Socrates, Plato, Aristotle, and other Greek philosophers profoundly influenced Classical thought, the Islamic Golden Age, and the Renaissance.}}

::::Similarly, there is no need to be worried that whatever Culture of Belarus is spread abroad can't be mentioned. E.g. Culture of Belarus#Literature tells a little story: {{tq|By the 16th century, Polotsk resident Francysk Skaryna translated the Bible into Belarusian. It was published in Prague and Vilnius between 1517 and 1525, making it the first book printed in Belarus or anywhere in Eastern Europe.}} Nobody is saying we can't mention that just because Prague is not located inside Belarus. This is a nice example of the culture of Belarus being spread abroad, and that's okay. {{smiley}} Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 16:33, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

:::::I really think that we should dicuss it case by case, possibly with involvement of Wikiprojects, unlike you I don't consider myself expert on every culture on earth. :Category:Azerbaijani culture is the best example of that, afaik state of Azerbaijan isn't the main center of Azerbaijani culture. Azerbaijani culture shows it quite well. Marcelus (talk) 16:43, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

::::::I've posted invitations to participate in this CfR to WikiProject Countries and WikiProject Culture. I don't think it will be necessary to request permission from everyone at, say, WP:WikiProject Andorra to rename :Category:Andorran culture to :Category:Culture of Andorra if the main article has been called Culture of Andorra since 2004 and the scope of the main article and adjoining category have remained unchanged for the past 19 years. But if you think so, go ahead. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 22:13, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

::::::@Marcelus, please can you clarify your position? Above you said {{tq|Culture of foo is much better category name, as it is much broader}} but you seems to be suggesting into should reviewed case by case here. Qwerfjkltalk 20:58, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

• Comment on nouns vs adjectives Some subcategories also follow the {{xt|Culture of Fooland}} naming convention already, such as :Category:Culture of Åland‎, :Category:Culture of Germany by state, and :Category:Culture of Auvergne-Rhône-Alpes. Especially the latter would be difficult to turn into a "Fooian" formula. Should we really expect Wikipedians who are categorising articles to know all the adjectives of geographical regions and name them {{xt|Category:Auvergnat–Rhônalpin culture}} and such? Surely not. It would be grammatically correct, but fail WP:NATURALNESS. The {{xt|Culture of Fooland}} convention allows us to simply use the noun of the country or region in question and not having to memorise or look up the adjectives of all possibly categorisable regions in the world (:Category:Culture of Provence-Alpes-Côte d'Azur, :Category:Culture of Khyber Pakhtunkhwa, etc.). Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 01:03, 28 August 2023 (UTC)
• Fully support this nomination - I think this is an excellent nomination and I would dare to nominate few additional cats:
• Propose renaming :Category:Kosovan culture to :Category:Culture of Kosovo – main article: Culture of Kosovo;
• Propose renaming :Category:Serbian culture to :Category:Culture of Serbia – main article: Culture of Serbia and Cultural heritage of Serbia.--౪ Santa ౪^99° 15:46, 10 September 2023 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: speedy delete per author request. ✗plicit 13:24, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

{{anchor|Category:Wikipedians who believe that a hot dog is not a sandwich|Category:Wikipedians who believe that a hot dog is a sandwich}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Wikipedians who believe that a hot dog is not a sandwich}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Wikipedians who believe that a hot dog is a sandwich}}

: Nominator's rationale: Fails WP:USERCAT for lacking any discernible collaborative function. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 13:06, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkltalk 21:04, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose Deleting :Category:Recipients of the Ulloor Award

:Nominator's rationale: Per WP:SHAREDNAME, WP:OCAWARD, and WP:NONDEFINING

:There are 3 different "Ulloor Awards" issued by 2 different organisations that are all named after renowned Malayalam poet Ulloor S. Parameswara Iyer. In practice the 2 articles in this category don't treat the award as defining, (1) mentioning it in passing with other honours or (2) not mentioning it at all. The recipients are already listified here, here and here in the main article for any reader interested in the topic. - RevelationDirect (talk) 01:06, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

• Delete, WP:OCAWARD says it all. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:27, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkltalk 21:04, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose Deleting :Category:Prix Emmanuel Roblès recipients

:Nominator's rationale: Per WP:OCAWARD and WP:NONDEFINING

:The Emmanuel Roblès Prize is a French literary award for an author's first novel. The award might be initially defining for these young authors but, by the time they are notable enough for a Wikipedia article, this award is usually mentioned in passing with other honours. This is one of many French literary award categories created in late 2016/early 2017 by a banned editor. The contents are already listified here in the main article for any reader interested in the topic. - RevelationDirect (talk) 01:06, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

• Delete, WP:OCAWARD says it all. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:28, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.