Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 December 16#Sexism by country

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 04:04, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Deaths in the Independent State of Croatia}}

:Nominator's rationale: Delete as this category is not defining by itself per WP:OCLOCATION Mason (talk) 21:19, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

• Delete per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 21:37, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

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:The result of the discussion was: rename. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkltalk 10:00, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

::* Propose renaming:

:* :Category:Albanian American to :Category:Albanian diaspora in the United States

:* :Category:Austrian American to :Categogory:Austrian diaspora in the United States

:* :Category:Belarusian American to :Categogory:Belarusian diaspora in the United States

:* :Category:Belgian American to :Categogory:Belgian diaspora in the United States

:* :Category:Bosnian American to :Categogory:Bosnian diaspora in the United States

:* :Category:British American to :Categogory:British diaspora in the United States

{{cot|more categories nominated}}

:* :Category:Bulgarian American to :Categogory:Bulgarian diaspora in the United States

:* :Category:Burmese American to :Categogory:Burmese diaspora in the United States

:* :Category:Cambodian American to :Categogory:Cambodian diaspora in the United States

:* :Category:Chinese-American society to :Categogory:Chinese diaspora in the United States

:* :Category:Croatian American to :Categogory:Croatian diaspora in the United States

:* :Category:Cypriot American to :Categogory:Cypriot diaspora in the United States

:* :Category:Czech American to :Categogory:Czech diaspora in the United States

:* :Category:Danish American to :Categogory:Danish diaspora in the United States

:* :Category:Dutch American to :Categogory:Dutch diaspora in the United States

:* :Category:Eastern Europeans in the United States to :Category:Eastern European diaspora in the United States

:* :Category:Estonian American to :Categogory:Estonian diaspora in the United States

:* :Category:Filipino American to :Categogory:Filipino diaspora in the United States

:* :Category:Finnish American to :Categogory:Finnish diaspora in the United States

:* :Category:French American to :Categogory:French diaspora in the United States

:* :Category:German American to :Categogory:German diaspora in the United States

:* :Category:Greek American to :Categogory:Greek diaspora in the United States

:* :Category:Hungarian American to :Categogory:Hungarian diaspora in the United States

:* :Category:Indian American to :Categogory:Indian diaspora in the United States

:* :Category:Indonesian American to :Categogory:Indonesian diaspora in the United States

:* :Category:Irish American to :Categogory:Irish diaspora in the United States

:* :Category:Italian American to :Categogory:Italian diaspora in the United States

:* :Category:Japanese American to :Categogory:Japanese diaspora in the United States

:* :Category:Kazakhstani American to :Categogory:Kazakhstani diaspora in the United States

:* :Category:Laotian American to :Categogory:Laotian diaspora in the United States

:* :Category:Latvian American to :Categogory:Latvian diaspora in the United States

:* :Category:Lithuanian American to :Categogory:Lithuanian diaspora in the United States

:* :Category:Luxembourgian American to :Categogory:Luxembourgian diaspora in the United States

:* :Category:Macedonian American to :Categogory:Macedonian diaspora in the United States

:* :Category:Malaysian American to :Categogory:Malaysian diaspora in the United States

:* :Category:Maltese American to :Categogory:Maltese diaspora in the United States

:* :Category:Moldovan American to :Categogory:Moldovan diaspora in the United States

:* :Category:Mongolian American to :Categogory:Mongolian diaspora in the United States

:* :Category:Nepalese American to :Categogory:Nepalese diaspora in the United States

:* :Category:Norwegian American to :Categogory:Norwegian diaspora in the United States

:* :Category:Pakistani American to :Categogory:Pakistani diaspora in the United States

:* :Category:Polish American to :Categogory:Polish diaspora in the United States

:* :Category:Russian American to :Categogory:Russian diaspora in the United States

:* :Category:Serbian American to :Categogory:Serbian diaspora in the United States

:* :Category:Slovak American to :Categogory:Slovak diaspora in the United States

:* :Category:Spanish American to :Categogory:Spanish diaspora in the United States

:* :Category:Sri Lankan American to :Categogory:Sri Lankan diaspora in the United States

:* :Category:Swedish American to :Categogory:Swedish diaspora in the United States

:* :Category:Swiss American to :Categogory:Swiss diaspora in the United States

:* :Category:Taiwanese American to :Categogory:Taiwanese diaspora in the United States

:* :Category:Thai American to :Categogory:Thai diaspora in the United States

:* :Category:Ukrainian American to :Categogory:Ukrainian diaspora in the United States

:* :Category:Vietnamese American to :Categogory:Vietnamese diaspora in the United States

{{cob}}

:Nominator's rationale: rename, these are topic categories. The proposed names align with :Category:Diasporas in the United States and :Category:Diasporas by country of origin.

{{cot|copy of speedy discussion}}

• :Category:Ukrainian American to :Category:Ukrainian diaspora in the United States – C2C per :Category:Ukrainian diaspora by country. Place Clichy (talk) 01:38, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
• :Oppose. Not consistant with the category names in :Category:Eastern Europeans in the United States. Omnis Scientia (talk) 17:09, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
• :* I suppose :Category:Eastern Europeans in the United States and all of its subcategories can be speedied in conjunction. But maybe it is better done in full discussion. Marcocapelle (talk) 18:10, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
• :*:Agreed. In which case my vote should be actually be Oppose speedy. Omnis Scientia (talk) 20:34, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

{{cob}}

• {{ping|Omnis Scientia|Place Clichy}} pinging contributors to speedy discussion. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:44, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
• :Support per nomination. Omnis Scientia (talk) 20:55, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
• :Comment: @Marcocapelle, add the categories in :Category:Middle Eastern American and :Category:Caribbean American as well. Omnis Scientia (talk) 22:28, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
• ::@Marcocapelle, I think they need to be done seperately because there quite a few diaspora groups - Oceanians, Middle Easterns, Hispanic and Latino, Caribbean, etc. - in the categories named in this manner. As @Place Clichy says, it would remove ambiguity. Omnis Scientia (talk) 22:39, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
• ::: There's always an issue with nominations being either too small or too large. The only practical result is a bias that large batches of bogus categories happen to stay as they are for longer than they should. The understandable aim to discuss a coherent set of categories at the same time should not stand in the way of making such an obvious improvement. Place Clichy (talk) 04:22, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
• ::::@Place Clichy, indeed. Which is why I think these ones ought to be done seperately and after these ones are done.
• ::::I actually thought there was only one but there are, in fact, five or six outside :Category:Diasporas in the United States. Omnis Scientia (talk) 06:53, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
• Rename as nom. This removes an ambiguity in several ways. Adjectives are never good for category names, plus these Fooian Barian can be understood in one direction or the other (as Fooians in Bar or Barians in Foo). Place Clichy (talk) 21:34, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
• I will nominate the others if this discussion is closed as rename. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:27, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
• :Support per nom Mason (talk) 15:48, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: merge. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 04:03, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose splitting :Category:Kidnapped Yemeni journalists to :Category:Kidnapped Yemeni people and :Category:Kidnappings of journalists

:Nominator's rationale: Upmerge for now. This category at the intersection of nationality, occupation, and crime isn't very helpful. Mason (talk) 20:30, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

• Dual merge per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 21:47, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: delete. {{nac}} –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 04:02, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting :Category:Sexism in Algeria

:* Propose deleting :Category:Sexism in Argentina

:* Propose deleting :Category:Sexism in Austria

:* Propose deleting :Category:Sexism in Belgium

:* Propose deleting :Category:Sexism in Botswana

:* Propose deleting :Category:Sexism in Burkina Faso

:* Propose deleting :Category:Sexism in Burundi

:* Propose deleting :Category:Sexism in Cambodia

:* Propose deleting :Category:Sexism in Cameroon

:* Propose deleting :Category:Sexism in Canada

{{cot|more categories nominated}}

:* Propose deleting :Category:Sexism in the Central African Republic

:* Propose deleting :Category:Sexism in Chad

:* Propose deleting :Category:Sexism in Chile

:* Propose deleting :Category:Sexism in the Republic of the Congo

:* Propose deleting :Category:Sexism in Costa Rica

:* Propose deleting :Category:Sexism in the Czech Republic

:* Propose deleting :Category:Sexism in the Democratic Republic of the Congo

:* Propose deleting :Category:Sexism in Djibouti

:* Propose deleting :Category:Sexism in the Dominican Republic

:* Propose deleting :Category:Sexism in Estonia

:* Propose deleting :Category:Sexism in Eswatini

:* Propose deleting :Category:Sexism in Ethiopia

:* Propose deleting :Category:Sexism in Finland

:* Propose deleting :Category:Sexism in France

:* Propose deleting :Category:Sexism in the Gambia

:* Propose deleting :Category:Sexism in Ghana

:* Propose deleting :Category:Sexism in Greece

:* Propose deleting :Category:Sexism in Guatemala

:* Propose deleting :Category:Sexism in Guinea

:* Propose deleting :Category:Sexism in Guinea-Bissau

:* Propose deleting :Category:Sexism in Haiti

:* Propose deleting :Category:Sexism in Hong Kong

:* Propose deleting :Category:Sexism in Hungary

:* Propose deleting :Category:Sexism in Iceland

:* Propose deleting :Category:Sexism in Iraq

:* Propose deleting :Category:Sexism in Ireland

:* Propose deleting :Category:Sexism in Italy

:* Propose deleting :Category:Sexism in Ivory Coast

:* Propose deleting :Category:Sexism in Jamaica

:* Propose deleting :Category:Sexism in Jordan

:* Propose deleting :Category:Sexism in Kazakhstan

:* Propose deleting :Category:Sexism in Kiribati

:* Propose deleting :Category:Sexism in Kuwait

:* Propose deleting :Category:Sexism in Kyrgyzstan

:* Propose deleting :Category:Sexism in Latvia

:* Propose deleting :Category:Sexism in Libya

:* Propose deleting :Category:Sexism in Lithuania

:* Propose deleting :Category:Sexism in Malaysia

:* Propose deleting :Category:Sexism in Mali

:* Propose deleting :Category:Sexism in Mauritius

:* Propose deleting :Category:Sexism in Morocco

:* Propose deleting :Category:Sexism in Myanmar

:* Propose deleting :Category:Sexism in Namibia

:* Propose deleting :Category:Sexism in the Netherlands

:* Propose deleting :Category:Sexism in Niger

:* Propose deleting :Category:Sexism in Norway

:* Propose deleting :Category:Sexism in Panama

:* Propose deleting :Category:Sexism in Papua New Guinea

:* Propose deleting :Category:Sexism in Peru

:* Propose deleting :Category:Sexism in Poland

:* Propose deleting :Category:Sexism in Romania

:* Propose deleting :Category:Sexism in Rwanda

:* Propose deleting :Category:Sexism in Samoa

:* Propose deleting :Category:Sexism in Senegal

:* Propose deleting :Category:Sexism in Serbia

:* Propose deleting :Category:Sexism in Sierra Leone

:* Propose deleting :Category:Sexism in Singapore

:* Propose deleting :Category:Sexism in Slovakia

:* Propose deleting :Category:Sexism in Slovenia

:* Propose deleting :Category:Sexism in Somalia

:* Propose deleting :Category:Sexism in Somaliland

:* Propose deleting :Category:Sexism in Spain

:* Propose deleting :Category:Sexism in Sweden

:* Propose deleting :Category:Sexism in Switzerland

:* Propose deleting :Category:Sexism in Syria

:* Propose deleting :Category:Sexism in Taiwan

:* Propose deleting :Category:Sexism in Togo

:* Propose deleting :Category:Sexism in Trinidad and Tobago

:* Propose deleting :Category:Sexism in Turkey‎

:* Propose deleting :Category:Sexism in Uganda

:* Propose deleting :Category:Sexism in Ukraine

:* Propose deleting :Category:Sexism in the United Arab Emirates

:* Propose deleting :Category:Sexism in Uzbekistan

:* Propose deleting :Category:Sexism in Vietnam

:* Propose deleting :Category:Sexism in Yemen

:* Propose deleting :Category:Sexism in Zimbabwe

{{cob}}

:Nominator's rationale: delete, redundant category layer with only one subcategory each. The subcategory is properly parented, a merge is not necessary. Marcocapelle (talk) 21:50, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

::Delete for now to help with navigation. Mason (talk) 19:17, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: merge. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 04:01, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose splitting :Category:Disappeared journalists in Mexico to :Category:Enforced disappearances in Mexico and :Category:Disappeared journalists

:Nominator's rationale: Dual merge. No need to diffuse by place of disappearance. This is the only category of Disappeared journalists and is the only contents of Enforced disappearances in Mexico Mason (talk) 20:24, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

• Dual merge per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 21:49, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: split. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkltalk 10:02, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose splitting :Category:Armenian Catholics to :Category:Catholics from Armenia and :Category:Members of the Armenian Catholic Church

:Nominator's rationale: Split and disambiguate. The category is currently a mixture of people from Armenia who are Catholics, and people (mainly elsewhere) who belong to the Armenian Catholic Church. – Fayenatic London 08:57, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

• Split per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 14:31, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
• :Support per nom. Mason (talk) 19:18, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: rename. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 04:01, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose renaming :Category:Armenian Catholic priests to :Category:Priests of the Armenian Catholic Church

:* Propose renaming :Category:Armenian Catholic bishops to :Category:Bishops of the Armenian Catholic Church

:** Propose renaming :Category:20th-century Armenian Catholic bishops to :Category:20th-century bishops of the Armenian Catholic Church (added 17 December)

:** Propose renaming :Category:Armenian Catholic archbishops to :Category:Archbishops of the Armenian Catholic Church

:Nominator's rationale: rename to avoid a likely misunderstanding. These are not clergy of Armenian nationality but clergy of the Armenian-rite church body of the Catholic church, the Armenian Catholic Church. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:18, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

• Support per nom. Good idea! Mason (talk) 20:24, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
• Rename and disambiguate – thank you, Marcocapelle. Presumably the C20 and archbishops subcats should be nominated too. – Fayenatic London 08:42, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

:* Thank you for adding the additional two categories. Marcocapelle (talk) 14:33, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: dual merge. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkltalk 15:34, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:Television shows about cocaine to :Category:Television shows about drugs

:Nominator's rationale: Right now, it's simply too small of category, only having one article in it. JDDJS (talk to me • see what I've done) 20:01, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

::Support in principle. But also merge to Works about cocaine Mason (talk) 20:25, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

• Dual merge per above. Marcocapelle (talk) 21:52, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
• :Support Of the two non-redirects directly in :Category:Works about cocaine, only one (Christmas Snow (South Park)) is about a TV program or episode. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 02:14, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: merge. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 03:50, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:Works by Giacomo Balla to :Category:Paintings by Giacomo Balla

:Nominator's rationale: The category includes only paintings and not other works of art, like sculptures, drawings, etc, by Italian futurist painter Giacomo Balla. Balla was also basically mostly a painter, so in accordance with Wikipedia categories naming rules, the categories names should be merged to indicate only paintings.Mistico Dois (talk) 19:54, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

• Rename and re-parent, the articles are about paintings as nom says. Marcocapelle (talk) 21:55, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: merge. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 03:50, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:Armenian Roman Catholic saints to :Category:Armenian saints

:Nominator's rationale: merge, these saints are not specifically Roman Catholic. Which applies equally to the saints in the target. Marcocapelle (talk) 19:50, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

::Support per nom Mason (talk) 02:13, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: merge. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 03:49, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:Murders in the Czech Republic by century to :Category:Murder in the Czech Republic

:** Propose merging :Category:Crimes in the Czech Republic by century to :Category:Crime in the Czech Republic (added 17 December)

:Nominator's rationale: Upmerge for now. Not helpful for navigation to only have one category in here Mason (talk) 18:39, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

• Merge per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 21:56, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
• Merge along with parent (added to this nomination). – Fayenatic London 14:20, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
• :Support additional cat Mason (talk) 19:19, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkltalk 10:05, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Wikipedia image placeholders for image namespace}}

:Nominator's rationale: The purpose of this subcategory is unclear, and it contains only one project page. Per Wikipedia:Centralized discussion/Image placeholders, image placeholders have been deprecated since 2008. :Category:Wikipedia image placeholders is already used for historical archive purposes, so this category seems redundant. Thriftycat ^{Talk • Contribs} 18:17, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

::Delete per nom. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 17:41, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: merge. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 03:49, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:Assassinated Iranian Kurdish politicians to :Category:Assassinated Iranian politicians and :Category:Assassinated Kurdish politicians

:* Propose merging :Category:Assassinated Iraqi Kurdistani politicians to :Category:Assassinated Kurdish politicians and :Category:Assassinated Iraqi politicians

:* Propose merging :Category:Assassinated Syrian Kurdish politicians to :Category:Assassinated Kurdish politicians and :Category:Assassinated Syrian politicians

:* Propose merging :Category:Assassinated Turkish Kurdish politicians to :Category:Assassinated Turkish politicians and :Category:Assassinated Kurdish politicians

:Nominator's rationale: Dual merge. Non-defining intersection between nationality, ethnicity, and occupation and death. I've already added each person to their respective Fooian Kurdish politician category Mason (talk) 15:33, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

• Dual merge, trivial intersection and per WP:OCEGRS. Marcocapelle (talk) 21:58, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 03:49, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting {{lc|George Shadbolt}}

:Nominator's rationale: Has only one article in category. Sahaib (talk) 13:46, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

::Delete per nom.Mistico Dois (talk) 17:50, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

:::Support now that the categories applied to the parent haved been added to the single article. Mason (talk) 18:41, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: No consensus * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 00:38, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:People from the French colonial empire to :Category:People of former French colonies

:Nominator's rationale: Overlapping category Mason (talk) 16:31, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

::Oppose because not all the territories of the French colonial empire are colonies. Most are, but some are protectorates and mandate territories. Categories like "People from French protectorate in Morocco" should be created I think. Frenchl (talk) 17:07, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

:::Ok, what about the reverse? Do you oppose that as well? Mason (talk) 17:47, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

::::Yes, I think we should keep independant categories, and create a new one for former French protectorates, and another one for former French mandate territories. On fr:wp we have a whole category for People from French protectorate in Morocco. Frenchl (talk) 18:26, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

:::::Is the difference between "protectorates", "mandates", and "colony" defining? I don't see why we need to make the distinction across all the groups. I'm fine with having a category for ""People from French protectorate in Morocco" but I don't see why it needs to be in a separate category, given that categories are to help navigation. Mason (talk) 18:42, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

::::::I'll do some checking and get back to you. Frenchl (talk) 19:38, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

:::::::Okay, so the difference is that People from colonies lose their original nationality and become French only. People from protectorates keep their original nationality and can acquire French nationality by naturalization with greater ease but this is not automatic. Mandates are administred for a fixed term by the international community, and people from mandates keep their own nationality and do not have as easy access to French nationality as in the protectorates.

:::::::Since we have separate categories for Former British protectorates and Former British colonies‎, I think it's wise to have the same for France. Frenchl (talk) 20:50, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

::::::::Thanks! Do we have :Category:People from former British protectorates and :Category:People from former British colonies? Because I don't know how helpful it is to break them up. Mason (talk) 00:45, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

:::::::::It would be helpful because in its current state, it is not correct to categorize People from former British colonies both in Former British colonies and in Former British protectorates. A protectorate is not a colony and its people were neither British citizens nor British subjects. And today these people are not even considered UK nationals by the European Union ([https://www.gov.uk/types-of-british-nationality/british-protected-person 1]). Frenchl (talk) 10:19, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

• Delete both, :Category:French people in the French colonial empire is a perfectly fine subcategory, but non-colonial people in different colonies have nothing in common with each other. Marcocapelle (talk) 19:59, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
• :Yes they do : both are French nationals. Frenchl (talk) 10:48, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: Rename to :Category:Surat Metro * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 00:38, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Surat Metro stations}}

:Nominator's rationale: Category of unclear utility. The only contents here are a list of the stations and two omnibus articles about the lines that the stations are on (which are not themselves stations, and do not belong in a category for the stations) -- and there's no immediate prospect of expansion, as the individual stations all exist only as redirects to one of the lines rather than standalone articles about the stations as stations. Obviously no prejudice against recreation if and when some or most of the stations actually have their own articles, but this isn't needed just to hold lists. Bearcat (talk) 18:04, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

• This may be re-purposed to :Category:Surat Metro. Marcocapelle (talk) 19:49, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
• :@Bearcat@Marcocapelle This is a lagitmate catagory as Surat Metro is a Real Project and all the information is verifed, station articles will soon be publish, Redirection is temporary Kingaayaan (talk) 11:13, 26 November 2023 (UTC)
• :* Let's then rename to :Category:Surat Metro for now, and recreate :Category:Surat Metro stations when the articles are really published. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:39, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
• :The way this works is not "create category first, then create actual content for it second" — because what if that content fails to get created? So you create the articles first, and then you create a category to group them together after the articles exist, not vice versa. Bearcat (talk) 15:15, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: Delete * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 00:38, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

:Convert :Category:African presence at the Scottish royal court to article African presence at the Scottish royal court

:Nominator's rationale: I'm not really sure what to do with this category. It's interesting, but I don't think that it's a defining category. Mason (talk) 18:09, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

• Just delete, I can't see this growing to an article either (although I would be more than happy to have my mind changed about this). Marcocapelle (talk) 19:33, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
• Keep, The articles that fall into this category are biographies of the persons who constituted the African presence at the Scottish court. I have made some new edits to make this definition clearer.Unoquha (talk) 23:38, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
• :I understood the intent of the category. That's not the question. I don't think that the intent of this category is defining, in the category sense of the term. Mason (talk) 00:40, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

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::I would say Delete per @Marcocapelle. The article, already present in :Category:Black British history, should be expanded instead. Omnis Scientia (talk) 21:07, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: No consensus * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 00:38, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:Fictional spacecraft by type to :Category:Fictional spacecraft

:Nominator's rationale: Unnecessary layer that lacks a real-life counterpart; real-life spacecraft types are diffused directly from :Category:Spacecraft. Only other contents are articles about types of spacecraft, which don't belong in a by-X container category. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 13:00, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

• Keep I don't think the categorization scheme is necessarily bad, but maybe it could stand to be reversed - :Category:Fictional spacecraft by type would instead be renamed :Category:Fictional spacecraft, while the current :Category:Fictional spacecraft would become :Category:Individual fictional spacecraft (similar to :Category:Individual space vehicles). ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 13:11, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

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• Comment, User:Zxcvbnm is in fact not opposing the nomination. If the nomination is processed and a new :Category:Individual fictional spacecraft is created, then the outcome is exactly what Zxcvbnm envisages. Marcocapelle (talk) 23:16, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: Keep * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 00:38, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:Doctor Who location redirects to :Category:Doctor Who locations and :Category:Television location redirects and :Category:Doctor Who element redirects to lists

:Nominator's rationale: Four-entry category. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 14:01, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

::Oppose: :Category:Doctor Who location redirects is a maintenance category that should be kept separate from content categories, in this case the parent category :Category:Doctor Who locations. It also standard practice for fictional location, character and element redirects to be categorized by franchise, series etc. when there are more than a couple of entries to keep the generic categories at a manageable size.— TAnthony^Talk 15:29, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

• Meanwhile a number of additional redirects have been created. If that is just for the sake of keeping the category in the air then it is a strange action. Marcocapelle (talk) 18:34, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

:I noticed three existing redirects that also belonged in this category rather than :Category:Doctor Who locations, and yes I created six more, but I don't see the quantity of entries as a reason to eliminate a category anyway. Bloating :Category:Television location redirects to avoid a new subcat isn't organizationally helpful. BTW that TV category had over 80 entries when this discussion opened and I've further categorized most of them as appropriate.— TAnthony^Talk 18:52, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

:I'm happy to delete the six new redirects if their creation is a distraction, but there was no intent on my part to mislead. Thanks.— TAnthony^Talk 18:56, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

:Deleted.— TAnthony^Talk 19:43, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

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• By the moons of Mondas! I have added 4 more existing redirects, making 12 now, so it seems worth keeping. – Fayenatic London 13:37, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: Rename to :Category:Fictional merchants, no consensus to merge. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 00:38, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:Fictional market stallholders to :Category:Fictional shopkeepers

:Nominator's rationale: Merge per WP:NONDEF. This is not an attribute of the person, but of their shop. It is not defining what the size or shape of someone's shop is, only that they are a shopkeeper. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 09:33, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

::Merge per nom. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 10:41, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

• Weak keep, I would associate the word shop only with a more permanent location. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:22, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
• :{{ping|Marcocapelle}} How about renaming it :Category:Fictional vendors then, and reversing the order of the categories? :Category:Fictional shopkeepers would become a subcategory. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 09:54, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
• :* Yes something along those lines would be better. Marcocapelle (talk) 11:43, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
• I don't find "Vendors" appropriate – in the UK I associate that word with a private individual selling a home or car. The real-life parent should be :Category:Businesspeople in retailing (as {{cat|Retailers}} is used for companies rather than individuals), so keep and reparent under new :Category:Fictional businesspeople in retailing. – Fayenatic London 11:31, 17 November 2023 (UTC)
• :{{ping|Fayenatic london}} We already have :Category:Fictional salespeople, so isn't that still redundant? ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 15:13, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
• :: In my opinion, no. From my experience "salespeople" brings to mind sales professionals, e.g. travelling salespeople and people selling to businesses (as opposed to consumers). I see no benefit in mingling those with market traders and shop workers. :Category:Fictional salespeople may benefit from recategorising some of its current members under the proposed new parent. – Fayenatic London 15:26, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

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• User:Fayenatic london's suggestion is also fine, or perhaps even shorter :Category:Fictional retailers? Marcocapelle (talk) 23:08, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

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::What about :Category:Fictional merchants, to match :Category:Merchants? Mason (talk) 19:21, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

:::Rename to :Category:Fictional merchants. AHI-3000 (talk) 22:52, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

:::* That is also fine. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:28, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

::::Acceptable. That was the name of a category that was renamed ot :Category:Fictional salespeople in Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2023_November_14#Category:Fictional_merchants. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 19:54, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: No consenus * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 00:38, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:Tuberculosis deaths in the Russian Empire to :Category:Tuberculosis deaths in Russia

:* Propose merging :Category:Accidental deaths in the Russian Empire to :Category:Accidental deaths in Russia

:* Propose merging :Category:Deaths from cancer in the Russian Empire to :Category:Deaths from cancer in Russia

:Nominator's rationale: overlapping category where the intersection between type of death and political regime is not defining Mason (talk) 13:23, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

• Merge per nom. Place Clichy (talk) 14:14, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
• I don't know. It is odd to regard Russia and the Russian Empire as the same country but not the Soviet Union. After all the Russian Empire and the Soviet Union shared more land with each other than Russia with either of the two. Marcocapelle (talk) 17:40, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
• :My basic view is that the term "Russian" is commonly used to describe individuals' nationality during the time of the Russian Empire. It's quite rare to find references to people as "Imperial Russian" or as being a "Russian Empire [FOO]ian. I think it’s also worth noting  that Russian people categories, :Category:People from the Russian Empire‎ is nested  under  ":Category:Russian people by period"
• :I think that the difference between the Russian Empire and the Soviet Union is that other writers consider Soviet to be defining; For instance, a scientist active in the Soviet Union is typically referred to as a "Soviet scientist" or simply a "Soviet." Yet, a scientist active during the Russian Empire period is described as a "Russian scientist," without specific mention of the "Russian Empire" in most contexts. They are still described as "Russian," irrespective of the imperial context of their time.
• :Now, I think that this also works for how we refer to :Category:People from the Grand Duchy of Finland, which was part of the Russian Empire. A scientist from that duchy would be described as a Finnish scientist, reflecting the Duchy's autonomous status within the Empire. Mason (talk) 23:28, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
• :* {{tq|Yet, a scientist active during the Russian Empire period is described as a "Russian scientist,"}} -> I have seen the opposite multiple times. People being described as Latvian, Ukrainian etc. instead of Russian. In other words, in 18th/19th century context, the word Russian is not used as a synonym of from the Russian Empire, while in fact they were all (Russians, Ukrainians and Latvians alike) nationals of the Russian Empire. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:32, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
• :*:That's a fair point. I guess it's more accurate to say that I don't see scientists described as Russian Empire scientists, the same way that we see for soviets. Mason (talk) 05:41, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
• :*:* Yes, but that merely means their nationality is not mentioned explicitly. There are likewise more than enough articles about American scientists in which their American nationality is not mentioned, but that is not decisive. Marcocapelle (talk) 09:15, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

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:{{yo|Place Clichy|Marcocapelle|Smasongarrison}} where do you currently stand on this nomination? HouseBlaster^talk 17:49, 9 December 2023 (UTC)

• I oppose. In these matters the Russian Empire has very similar issues as the Soviet Union, and we do not merge Soviet to Russian either. Marcocapelle (talk) 17:55, 9 December 2023 (UTC)
• I support the original nomination. There are many reasons why it is correct to use terms Russia and Russian to refer to the 1721-1917 Russian Empire. Among a few:
• # It was called like that at the time.
• # When modern-day Russia was established during the break-up of the Soviet Union, it revived pre-Soviet symbols such as the flag and the coat of arms, clearly placing itself within that legacy.
• # Between the February 1917 Revolution and the creation of the Soviet Union on 31 December 1922, there is a ca. 6-year period (and a darn important one) where the Empire was no more and the country was just "Russia". The proposition that we should consider the Russian Empire, the Soviet Union, present-day Russia and maybe pre-1721 states as entirely different countries in terms of categories would leave this period in limbo. (Note that I do not suggest to merge Soviet Union categories with Russian ones.)
• # About the argument that the Russian Empire included people and areas that were not strictly Russian in the ethnic sense such as Poles and Finns, so does the modern-day Russian Federation. In Russian, there are different words for Russian citizenship (росси́йский) and Russian nationality (ру́сский), a nuance that's harder to convey in English as the same term is used. I remember a teacher explaining that ca. 20% of people in Russia had a nationality other than Russian, e.g. Chechens and Tatars, and that this was for a long time mentioned on official IDs.

: For these reasons, I see no reason here to deviate from the commonly accepted good practice of having categories for countries gathering past and present political regimes, unless absolutely necessary. Place Clichy (talk) 00:07, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

::My opinion aligns predominantly with Place Clichy. I think that the comparison with the soviet union is well-intended, but it doesn't reflect that most people describe people from the Russian Empire period as Russian. And I don't think that there's a reason to make the distinction between political regime, because tuberculous doesn't care about politics. Mason (talk) 00:29, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

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• I don't think that the fact that most people describe people from the Russian Empire period as Russian is a good argument. The criterion should be whether most knowledgeable people (i.e. historians) would do so. And presumably they will be a bit more accurate. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:35, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
• :I agree. The Russian Empire is different from the modern-day Russian Federation which is different from the Soviet Union. Many people who were a part of the Russian Empire back would not be considered Russian today, for example. I would say keep categories. Omnis Scientia (talk) 09:03, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: rename to :Category:Disney animal characters. There was consensus to keep the category, but to rename it instead. There was.no consensus on which name to US, but after Fayenatic London's renames, their rename target is more consistent with sibling categories. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkltalk 21:42, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Disney animated animals}}

:Nominator's rationale: Trivial intersection, especially the way it's being applied to characters that Disney just owns after buying the original owners. JDDJS (talk to me • see what I've done) 00:32, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

::I just consider why there are two categories: Disney Princess and Disney Prince, but no one named after Disney animals? Sdf (talk) 06:56, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

• Rename to :Category:Animated Disney animals. As long as :Category:Disney animated characters (which should really be :Category:Animated Disney characters) exists, this is a valid cross-categorization to have. if the problem is the inclusion criteria then that can be addressed by removing anything that didn't have its origin in Disney. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 07:18, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

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• Rename to :Category:Disney animal characters (see this Ngram [https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=Disney+animated+animals%2Canimated+Disney+animals%2CDisney+animal+characters%2Canimal+Disney+characters&year_start=1940&year_end=2019&corpus=en-2019&smoothing=3]); like e.g. :Category:Pixar characters, there's no need to specify "animated". Siblings :Category:Universal Pictures animated animals and :Category:Warner Bros. animated animals should likewise be renamed :Category:Universal Pictures animal characters and :Category:Warner Bros. animal characters, following the parent :Category:Animal characters in television. As for renaming the parent to "animated Disney characters", there's no clear pattern for C2C within :Category:Animated characters, but yes, this Ngram shows usage switching to that word order since 2010. [https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=animated+Disney+characters%2CDisney+animated+characters&year_start=1940&year_end=2019&corpus=en-2019&smoothing=3] – Fayenatic London 11:46, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
• I have taken the UP & WB siblings to the Speedy page. – Fayenatic London 12:29, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkltalk 17:03, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Cultural depictions of Irene Doukaina}}

:Nominator's rationale: delete, only one article in this category and Irene Doukaina isn't a main character in this work. Marcocapelle (talk) 12:14, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

::Delete per nom. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 17:42, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

• Comment I could have sworn that there was more material when I created this category. But if there isn't anymore then I guess deletion is fair.★Trekker (talk) 07:33, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: merge to :Category:Solomon Islands Roman Catholics and :Category:Solomon Islands Christian clergy. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 03:52, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:Solomon Islands Roman Catholic clergy to :Category:Solomon Islands Roman Catholics and :Category:Solomon Islands Christian clergy

:Nominator's rationale: Unnecessary layer over Solomon Islands RC priests. Merge for now until there are siblings for bishops etc. – Fayenatic London 11:59, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

• While I do not oppose the merge, there is in fact a :Category:Roman Catholic bishops in the Solomon Islands. Marcocapelle (talk) 12:18, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
• Thanks. That category is by country of work, whereas the nominated cat is by nationality. None of those bishops with articles are from the Solomon Islands – they only worked there for a time. – Fayenatic London 13:50, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: merge to :Category:1869 disestablishments in India and :Category:1869 disestablishments in the Danish colonial empire. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 03:53, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:1869 disestablishments in Danish India to :Category:1869 disestablishments in India and :Category:1869 disestablishments in Denmark

:** Propose deleting :Category:1860s disestablishments in Danish India (added 17 December)

:** Propose deleting :Category:19th-century disestablishments in Danish India

:** Propose deleting :Category:Disestablishments in Danish India by year

:** Propose deleting :Category:Disestablishments in Danish India by decade

:** Propose deleting :Category:Disestablishments in Danish India

:** Propose deleting :Category:1869 in Danish India

:** Propose deleting :Category:1860s in Danish India

:** Propose deleting :Category:Years of the 19th century in Danish India

:** Propose deleting :Category:19th century in Danish India

:Nominator's rationale: merge for now, the only article in here is Danish India itself. Marcocapelle (talk) 09:30, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

• Merge and delete empty parents (added to this nomination), but the second merge target should be :Category:1869 disestablishments in the Danish colonial empire. – Fayenatic London 13:59, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
• :Support per nom Mason (talk) 19:23, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: merge. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 03:54, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:People from Bamako by occupation to :Category:People from Bamako

:Nominator's rationale: merge, redundant category layer with only two subcategories. Marcocapelle (talk) 08:51, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

::Support per nom Mason (talk) 19:24, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkltalk 17:05, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Women's rights support from the irreligious}}

:Nominator's rationale: Non-defining category Mason (talk) 06:07, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

::Delete Unclear what this is for. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 06:45, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

• Delete, it is probably meant as :Category:Critics of religion because of suppression of women but it is not a very defining characteristic. Marcocapelle (talk) 08:45, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkltalk 17:05, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Names of God in Sanamahism}}

:Nominator's rationale: Not "names of God" per se. Duplicate of :Category:Meitei deities Redtigerxyz ^Talk 04:46, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

::Delete These are separate deities, not names for the same deity (i.r. Names of God). A category link in this nomination was improperly formatted. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 05:16, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

• Delete, overlapping with the tree of :Category:Meitei deities. Marcocapelle (talk) 08:48, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: merge. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkltalk 17:06, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:Leima to :Category:Meitei goddesses

:Nominator's rationale: Leima ("Queen") is a general honorific of Meitei goddesses. Redtigerxyz ^Talk 04:24, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

::Merge per WP:OVERLAPCAT, possibly also WP:SHAREDNAME. Most pages are already in the merge target. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 15:06, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: merge. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 03:54, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:Malian people by city and occupation to :Category:Malian people by occupation

:Nominator's rationale: Upmerge for now. Unhelpful for navigation as there's only one city in here Mason (talk) 04:16, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

• Merge per nom. I nominated the subcategory too. Marcocapelle (talk) 08:52, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: merge. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 03:55, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:15th-century Soninke people to :Category:Soninke people

:Nominator's rationale: Only person in this category is described as "a 13th-century West African Soninke karamogo (scholar)", and last time I checked... the 15th century and 13th century were not the same... Mason (talk) 04:13, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

• Merge per nom, without objection to create :Category:13th-century Soninke people once a reasonable amount of articles fit in. Marcocapelle (talk) 08:58, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: merge. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 03:55, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose splitting :Category:1449 in Mongolia to :Category:1449 in Asia and :Category:15th century in Mongolia

:Nominator's rationale: Dual merge. Not helpful for navigation. There's only one page in the entire :Category:15th century in Mongolia Mason (talk) 03:52, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

• Dual merge per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 09:04, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: merge. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 03:56, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:Hindu sages to :Category:Rishis

:Nominator's rationale: Rishi means sage in Hinduism. Duplication. Redtigerxyz ^Talk 03:25, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

• Merge per nom, or else to :Category:Hindu spiritual teachers. Marcocapelle (talk) 09:10, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: merge. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 03:56, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:Mosques completed in the 13th century to :Category:13th-century mosques

:** Propose deleting :Category:Mosques by century of completion (added 17 December)

:Nominator's rationale: overlapping category Mason (talk) 03:09, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

• Merge per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 09:11, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
• Merge. I added the parent to the nomination, since it will be emptied. – Fayenatic London 13:53, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: keep. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 03:56, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:People from Khwarazm to :Category:People from the Khwarazmian Empire

:Nominator's rationale: Overlapping categories Mason (talk) 02:55, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose, the category contains people from the Khwarazm region, also before and after the Khwarazmian Empire. Marcocapelle (talk) 09:20, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose. Khwarazm is a geographical area. The Khwarazmian Empire was an empire which originated in Khwarazm but covered a much larger area of Central Asia and Iran between about 1077 and 1231.--Mhockey (talk) 18:06, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
• :Ahh thank you for clarifying! I found it in :Category:People by former country in Asia. I'll fix up the parent category by moving it to :Category:Asian people by region. Mason (talk) 19:27, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: merge. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 03:57, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:Disestablishments in Danish India by century to :Category:Disestablishments in Danish India

:* Propose merging :Category:Establishments in Danish India by century to :Category:Establishments in Danish India

:Nominator's rationale: Upmerge for npw. Uphelpful for navigation as there is only one category in here Mason (talk) 02:48, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

• Merge per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 09:34, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 03:59, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Nike Athletes}}

:Nominator's rationale: A sponsorship is almost always a non-defining characteristic. User:Namiba 02:41, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

::Delete per nom. QuietHere (talk | contributions) 03:54, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

• Delete per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 09:38, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
• Delete as per nom, also overcategorising by association. Joseph2302 (talk) 23:07, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
• Delete per nom. Tewapack (talk) 17:04, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

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