Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 December 24

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: merge. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkltalk 15:31, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:15th-century actors by nationality to :Category:15th-century actors

:Nominator's rationale: Upmerge for now. This is the only category in the parent ( 15th-century actors ), which isn't helpful for navigation Mason (talk) 22:06, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

• Merge per nom. DaniloDaysOfOurLives (talk) 17:52, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: merge to :Category:Films about Alzheimer's disease. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkltalk 15:32, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:Nigerian films about Alzheimer's disease to :Category:Films about Alzheimer's disease and :Category:Nigerian films

:* Propose merging :Category:Singaporean films about Alzheimer's disease to :Category:Films about Alzheimer's disease and :Category:Singaporean films

:* Propose merging :Category:Turkish films about Alzheimer's disease to :Category:Films about Alzheimer's disease and :Category:Turkish films

:* Propose merging :Category:Cuban films about Alzheimer's disease to :Category:Films about Alzheimer's disease and :Category:Cuban films

:* Propose merging :Category:Chinese films about Alzheimer's disease to :Category:Films about Alzheimer's disease

:* Propose merging :Category:Chilean films about Alzheimer's disease to :Category:Films about Alzheimer's disease and :Category:Chilean films

:* Propose merging :Category:Belgian films about Alzheimer's disease to :Category:Films about Alzheimer's disease and :Category:Belgian films

:* Propose merging :Category:Argentine films about Alzheimer's disease to :Category:Films about Alzheimer's disease and :Category:Argentine films

:* Propose merging :Category:Australian films about Alzheimer's disease to :Category:Films about Alzheimer's disease and :Category:Australian films

:Nominator's rationale: Dual merge. This category is not helpful for navigation. There's only one page in each category. Mason (talk) 17:58, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

::Merge per nom. Omnis Scientia (talk) 18:55, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

• Merge per WP:NARROWCAT. Deltaspace⁴² (talk • contribs) 18:39, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
• Merge to :Category:Films about Alzheimer's disease only, the articles are already in another country film subcategory. Marcocapelle (talk) 08:19, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: rename. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkltalk 15:33, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

:* Propose renaming :Category:List of railroad of the United States by state or territory to :Category:Lists of railroads of the United States by state or territory

:Nominator's rationale: Previous move introduced grammar errors which would be corrected by this move. Courtesy ping to User:Aidan721. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 17:22, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

::Support, could be speedied. Mason (talk) 17:34, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

• Just nominate speedy. –Aidan721 (talk) 19:16, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
• :Ah, I wasn't sure if this was speedy eligible, I'm not that familiar with CfD procedures. Thanks for nominating it for me, and I'll keep this in mind going forward. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 18:37, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: delete all. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkltalk 15:38, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting :Category:Cultural depictions of Byzantine princesses

:* Propose merging :Category:Cultural depictions of Anna Komnene to :Category:Cultural depictions of princesses and :Category:Cultural depictions of Byzantine women Propose deleting :Category:Cultural depictions of Anna Komnene

:* Propose deleting :Category:Cultural depictions of Sophia Palaiologina and moving article Sophia (TV series) to :Category:Cultural depictions of princesses, :Category:Cultural depictions of Byzantine women and :Category:Cultural depictions of Russian women

:Nominator's rationale: merge, redundant category layer with only two subcategories, and each has only one article about the subject herself. Marcocapelle (talk) 11:47, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

:* In fact I think that :Category:Cultural depictions of Anna Komnene can just as well be deleted because Anna Komnene is just one of many characters in Count Robert of Paris and not a main character. Marcocapelle (talk) 12:11, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

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::Support per nom. Mason (talk) 17:35, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkltalk 15:41, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Musicals originally directed by George Abbott}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Musicals originally directed by Harold Prince}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Musicals originally directed by Gene Saks}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Musicals originally directed by Jerome Robbins}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Musicals originally directed by Gower Champion}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Plays originally directed by Elia Kazan}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Plays originally directed by Gene Saks}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Plays originally directed by Mike Nichols}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Plays originally directed by Tony Richardson}}

:Nominator's rationale: As at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2019 December 22#Category:Musicals directed by George Abbott (where note that both Abbott and Robbins have been tried before, making those two recreations of previously deleted categories), this is a non-defining characteristic that's essentially a WP:PERFCAT.
Unlike films, theatrical plays can have literally hundreds or thousands of new productions, each with a different director -- but they aren't more defined by who directed the first production than by who directed the second, third, fifth, five hundredth or ten thousandth productions. (Also, plays can sometimes have small regional productions in smaller theatre markets before working their way up to the Broadway/West End level — meaning that a play's first production and its fame-making major-theatre-mecca production aren't necessarily always the same thing, rendering "originally directed" categories effectively unmaintainable for accuracy.)
So until all of these were created in the past couple of weeks, we simply didn't have any comprehensive scheme of categorizing stage productions by the identity of their directors, first or otherwise -- and, again, we already deleted the only prior attempt to start a new one. Noteworthy productions can certainly be listed in the directors' articles, if they aren't already, but it isn't a useful or defining point of categorization. Bearcat (talk) 17:06, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

::Hi Bearcat. I would respectfully disagree. Directors are absolutely crucial in theatre during the development of a work because that is when the script is still evolving. I believe most histories of theatre works would support this. For instance, Mike Nichols was absolutely crucial to the evolution of Neil Simon's plays when Nichols directed it. Jerome Robbins, Hap Prince and George Abbott were frequently considered co-creators of musicals they directed. This is indeed reflected in the fact they typically get a permanent royalty for these plays. The original directors have only been listed when they are major directors and where the directors definitely directed the first productions. I absolutely take your point that directors should be not credited where they did not do the first perfomannce (eg Mike Nicols directed the Broadway debut of many plays that had been performed elsewhere - these are not included). I feel the entries for many plays and musicals on wikipedia are under-categorised, and categorising them by director, if the director is key, could be extremely useful. (I should also add I appreciate that you made your points with conciseness, grace and courtesy!) Britfilm (talk) 10:05, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

:::The problem is that Wikipedia editors do not typically pay attention to nuanced usage notes, and simply add articles to any category they think applicable and walk away without making any effort to see if they're doing it wrong. So people would absolutely add any play ever directed by Mike Nichols at all to his category if he directed the production they'd heard of, without undertaking any investigation of whether he actually directed the first production or not — which makes the categories unmaintainable, because we have no viable way to ensure that the category only gets used correctly and never gets used incorrectly. Bearcat (talk) 21:45, 7 December 2023 (UTC)

• Comment (no oppose), I do not think that WP:PERFCAT applies because that is typically used to discourage categorization by performance rather than to discourage categorization of performances. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:48, 26 November 2023 (UTC)
• :Yes, thank you Marcocapelle - the intent was to limit categorisation to where the director was involved in the inception of the work. For instance, it would be silly to categorise directors of works by, say, Shakespeare. But for directors involved in the original productions of work, I feel it would be very useful. Thank you. Britfilm (talk) 10:07, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

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• Delete Theoretically this might be useful, in practice Bearcat's point that it is difficult to get right overrides that value. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 00:38, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
• :Delete per @Pppery Mason (talk) 17:36, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

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::Delete per Pppery. Omnis Scientia (talk) 22:27, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: delete/merge. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkltalk 15:44, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Sikhism in the United States by state}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Sikhism in California}}

:* Propose merging :Category:Sikhism in New York (state) to :Category:Sikhism in the United States

:* Propose merging :Category:Gurdwaras in California to :Category:Gurdwaras in the United States

:Nominator's rationale: Only covers two states and not heavily populated; contains one category and two articles respectively. Delete the first two and merge the remaining with parent categories. Omnis Scientia (talk) 15:04, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

• Support in principle but in addition a few gurdwara articles should be manually added to :Category:Religious buildings and structures in California if they are not already in a subcategory of it. Marcocapelle (talk) 16:07, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
• :@Marcocapelle, there were two which were not; I have moved them to the appropriate subcategory of :Category:Religious buildings and structures in California by county. Omnis Scientia (talk) 16:39, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
• :* Thank you, then it can be merged as nominated. Marcocapelle (talk) 08:25, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
• Support per nom. –Aidan721 (talk) 19:22, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
• Delete/merge per nom. Place Clichy (talk) 07:32, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: merge. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkltalk 15:46, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:Michigan Pioneers to :Category:People of pre-statehood Michigan

:Nominator's rationale: Upmerge for now. There's only one category in here, which isn't helpful for navigation Mason (talk) 14:41, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

::Merge per nom. Omnis Scientia (talk) 22:28, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: dual merge. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkltalk 15:46, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:1816 Illinois Territory elections to :Category:United States House of Representatives elections in Illinois Territory

:Nominator's rationale: Upmerge for now. There is only a redirect in here. Mason (talk) 14:26, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

• Dual merge, also to :Category:Illinois Territory. Marcocapelle (talk) 08:36, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: delete/merge. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkltalk 15:46, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting {{lc|American people of Mexican descent by state}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Mexican-American people in politics by state}}

:* Propose merging :Category:Mexican-American people in California politics to :Category:Hispanic and Latino American people in California politics and :Category:American politicians of Mexican descent

:* Propose merging :Category:Mexican-American people in Illinois politics to :Category:Hispanic and Latino American people in Illinois politics and :Category:American politicians of Mexican descent

:Nominator's rationale: Has only one category which, in turn, has only two. Delete the two parent categories and merge dual merge the two subcats with their respective state categories the categories mentioned. Omnis Scientia (talk) 11:12, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

• Shouldn't they also be merged to :Category:American politicians of Mexican descent? Marcocapelle (talk) 12:11, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
• :Good point! I will add the categories. Thanks, @Marcocapelle. Omnis Scientia (talk) 12:29, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: delete/merge. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkltalk 15:47, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Bahá'í Faith in Minnesota}}

:* Propose merging :Category:Bahá'í Faith in the United States by state to :Category:Bahá'í Faith in the United States

:Nominator's rationale: Delete Minnesota category; contains only one article. Upmerge parent category. Omnis Scientia (talk) 10:46, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

• Delete/merge per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 12:14, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
• Delete/merge per nom. Place Clichy (talk) 07:31, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: split. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkltalk 15:48, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:Japanese pages to :Category:Japanese domestic workers

:Nominator's rationale: Overlapping category. There's no page occupation. The Page (servant) is in the Domestic work category. Mason (talk) 21:07, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

• Split between :Category:Samurai and :Category:Daimyo per actual content. The category is populated with samurai and daimyo, not with domestic workers. Marcocapelle (talk) 21:40, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
• :Good solution! Mason (talk) 14:47, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkltalk 15:57, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Fictional Tamil people}}

:Nominator's rationale: delete for now, category contains only one character for whom Tamil ethnicity isn't particularly defining. The article is already in :Category:Fictional American characters of Indian descent.

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Fictional Punjabi people}}

:Nominator's rationale: delete for now, category contains only one character for whom Punjabi ethnicity isn't particularly defining. The article is already in :Category:Fictional American characters of Pakistani descent. Marcocapelle (talk) 00:00, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

::Keep both. How is ethnicity "non-defining"? I reject this notion of deleting categories just because they are "small". I'm sure that you could sort through :Category:Fictional Indian people and :Category:Fictional Pakistani people and find multiple more examples of Bengali, Punjabi, Tamil, etc characters too. AHI-3000 (talk) 00:07, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

::* Tamil and Punjabi ethnicity was defining for the characters' ancestors who lived in India and Pakistan, but for someone living in the United States it is rather trivial. Marcocapelle (talk) 00:33, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

::*:I checked the sole page within :Category:Fictional Punjabi people (Bilqees Kaur); the subject is apparently about a Pakistani Punjabi Sikh immigrant and revolves around the title character's ethnic/religious identity, so I do not think that's a non-defining characteristic. AHI-3000 (talk) 02:00, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

::*:* Bilqees Kaur is about a drama series, not even about a character. Marcocapelle (talk) 09:43, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

::Delete Regardless of whether this is defining for the characters, we don't have enough to support these categories. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 05:11, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: merge to :Category:Assassinated monarchs. (non-admin closure) HouseBlaster^talk 23:08, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:Assassinated monarchs by time to :Category:Assassinated monarchs

:Nominator's rationale: Upmerge for now. This category isn't helpful for navigation Mason (talk) 03:51, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

• Merge per nom, also considering that the parent category contains very few subcategories. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:50, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: delete/merge (pick your favorite term). (non-admin closure) HouseBlaster^talk 23:05, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:Assassinated Caribbean monarchs to :Category:Assassinated monarchs

:Nominator's rationale: Upmerge. extremely narrow category, there isn't even a Caribbean monarchs category... Mason (talk) 03:47, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

• Just delete, the article is already in :Category:19th-century murdered monarchs. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:50, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: merge to :Category:History of Western Australia. (non-admin closure) HouseBlaster^talk 23:04, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:Immigrant ships to Western Australia to :Category:History of Western Australia

:Nominator's rationale: Upmerge for now. There is only one ship in here, which isn't helpful for navigation Mason (talk) 03:15, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

• Merge per nom. No need for a dual merge, the article is already in :Category:Migrant ships to Australia. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:53, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: reverse merge followed my a rename. I realize that :Category:Ankara Keçiörengücü S.K. has not been tagged, but at the end of the day only the page history of that category will change. (non-admin closure) HouseBlaster^talk 22:50, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:Ankara Keçiörengücü SK to :Category:Ankara Keçiörengücü S.K.

:Nominator's rationale: To be consistent with the home page title Sakiv (talk) 02:55, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

• Reverse merge to the older page, then rename :Category:Ankara Keçiörengücü SK to :Category:Ankara Keçiörengücü S.K.. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:56, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
• Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related page discussions. GiantSnowman 11:16, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
• Reverse merge per Marcocapelle, to the older page, and then rename. GiantSnowman 11:17, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
• Reverse merge and WP:TROUT to the user that created duplicate category. Joseph2302 (talk) 12:08, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: keep. (non-admin closure) HouseBlaster^talk 22:36, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose splitting :Category:Muslim women to :Category:Islam and women and :Category:Muslims

:Nominator's rationale: Overlapping category where the name encourages egrs Mason (talk) 02:22, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose, :Category:Muslim women is a set category while :Category:Islam and women is a topic category. If it is perceived as a violation of WP:OCEGRS it should only be dispersed to :Category:Muslims by nationality. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:02, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
• :Keep per Marcocapelle. Omnis Scientia (talk) 22:29, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
• ::Keep for same reasons AHI-3000 (talk) 06:09, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: merge to :Category:Muslim women. (non-admin closure) HouseBlaster^talk 22:36, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:Muslim women musicians to :Category:Performers of Islamic music

:Nominator's rationale: No need to have this intersect with gender Mason (talk) 02:21, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

• Alt merge to :Category:Muslim women (if that is kept, or otherwise delete). They are not performing Islamic music as a genre. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:06, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
• :Alt merge per Marcocapelle. Omnis Scientia (talk) 22:30, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
• ::Thirding alt merger suggestion AHI-3000 (talk) 06:10, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: dual merge. to :Category:Muslim women and :Category:Muslims by occupation. (non-admin closure) HouseBlaster^talk 22:37, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:Muslim women by occupation to :Category:Muslims by occupation

:Nominator's rationale: Unhelpful for navigation with only one category in here: also WP:EGRS/R Mason (talk) 02:21, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

• Merge per nom, dual merge to :Category:Muslim women if it is kept (see discussion further above). Marcocapelle (talk) 07:07, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
• :Merge per Marcocapelle. Omnis Scientia (talk) 22:30, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
• ::Dual merge as suggested above AHI-3000 (talk) 06:11, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

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