Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 December 25

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: merge. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkltalk 16:23, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:Bestselling Swedish-language authors to :Category:Swedish-language writers

:Nominator's rationale: Non-defining. Bestselling category is vague/not-defining. Mason (talk) 20:42, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

• Merge, subjective inclusion criterion. Marcocapelle (talk) 21:04, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: merge. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkltalk 16:44, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:Armenian Eastern Catholics to :Category:Members of the Armenian Catholic Church

:Nominator's rationale: merge, redundant category layer with only one subcategory. This is clean-up after this earlier discussion. Marcocapelle (talk) 19:53, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

: {{ping|Smasongarrison|Fayenatic london}} courtesy ping to participants in previous discussion. Marcocapelle (talk) 19:57, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

::Support per nom. Mason (talk) 20:44, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

• Support for now. This is part of :Category:Eastern Catholics by nationality, but it only contains a sub-cat for priests which is also within that hierarchy via :Category:Eastern Catholic priests by nationality. However, merging is without prejudice to re-creation if there are biographies of Armenians who are members of Eastern Catholic churches other than :Category:Members of the Armenian Catholic Church. – Fayenatic London 12:10, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
• Note: I have swapped the parenting of :Category:Armenian Eastern Catholic priests and :Category:Priests of the Armenian Catholic Church. :Category:Armenian Eastern Catholic priests is now the subcat of the nominated category. Both member articles are about people born in what is now Turkey rather than Armenia, and both are already within the Armenian Catholic sub-cat {{c|Mekhitarists}}. I searched for other articles to populate this subcat with AC priests who are from what is now Armenia as opposed to Lebanon/ Poland etc, but did not find any, so that category should probably also be nominated for deletion as not useful for navigation. – Fayenatic London 12:47, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

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:The result of the discussion was: keep. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkltalk 16:45, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting {{lc|19th-century tennis players}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|19th-century female tennis players}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|19th-century male tennis players}}

:Nominator's rationale: Delete categories; only covers one century; no other sport has a category by century. Omnis Scientia (talk) 17:16, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

• Comment. {{tq|no other sport has a category by century}} - I've just taken a look at :Category:19th-century_sportspeople and I see "19th-century chess players", "19th-century martial artists‎" etc. Deltaspace⁴² (talk • contribs) 19:00, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
• :@Deltaspace42, I did notice that but a long while after I nominated this! I've cut it out. Omnis Scientia (talk) 19:53, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose, the fact that there aren't 20th-century and 21st-century categories is not decisive. A 19th-century category is relevant for historical purposes, which would not apply to the 20th and 21st century. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:29, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
• :Keep per marco Mason (talk) 20:45, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
• Keep -- We deleted a lot of 20th century categories some years ago, becasue they were being used for a current/past distinction, which we do not allow. Peterkingiron (talk) 18:02, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
• Keep as per above arguments. Joseph2302 (talk) 16:24, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

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:The result of the discussion was: merge. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkltalk 16:45, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:Women tennis executives to :Category:Tennis executives

:* Propose merging :Category:Women tennis umpires to :Category:Tennis umpires

:Nominator's rationale: Merge to parent categories. Does not apply to a lot of people. Omnis Scientia (talk) 15:47, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

• Dual merge per WP:OCEGRS, also to :Category:Women sports executives and administrators and :Category:Women referees and umpires respectively. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:34, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
• :@Marcocapelle, I've already done so manually. Omnis Scientia (talk) 20:51, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
• :* Ah ok, in that case merge per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 21:00, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

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:The result of the discussion was: merge all. Hopefully XFDcloser works? The button showed up so I take that as a good sign..... (non-admin closure) HouseBlaster^talk 17:14, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:Musicians from Washington Heights, Manhattan to :Category:People from Washington Heights, Manhattan and :Category:Musicians from Manhattan

:* Propose merging :Category:Writers from the East Village, Manhattan to :Category:People from the East Village, Manhattan and :Category:Writers from Manhattan

:* Propose merging :Category:Actors from Greenwich Village to :Category:People from Greenwich Village and :Category:Actors from Manhattan

:* Propose merging :Category:Artists from Greenwich Village to :Category:People from Greenwich Village and :Category:Artists from Manhattan

:* Propose merging :Category:Musicians from Greenwich Village to :Category:People from Greenwich Village and :Category:Musicians from Manhattan

:* Propose merging :Category:Writers from Greenwich Village to :Category:People from Greenwich Village and :Category:Writers from Manhattan

:* Propose merging :Category:Actors from the Lower East Side to :Category:People from the Lower East Side and :Category:Actors from Manhattan

:* Propose merging :Category:Politicians from the Lower East Side to :Category:People from the Lower East Side and :Category:Politicians from Manhattan

:* Propose merging :Category:Actors from the Upper East Side to :Category:People from the Upper East Side and :Category:Actors from Manhattan

:* Propose merging :Category:Businesspeople from the Upper East Side to :Category:People from the Upper East Side and :Category:Businesspeople from Manhattan

:* Propose merging :Category:Politicians from the Upper East Side to :Category:People from the Upper East Side and :Category:Politicians from Manhattan

:* Propose merging :Category:Writers from the Upper East Side to :Category:People from the Upper East Side and :Category:Writers from Manhattan

:* Propose merging :Category:Actors from the Upper West Side to :Category:People from the Upper West Side and :Category:Actors from Manhattan

:* Propose merging :Category:Artists from the Upper West Side to :Category:People from the Upper West Side and :Category:Artists from Manhattan

:* Propose merging :Category:Musicians from the Upper West Side to :Category:People from the Upper West Side and :Category:Musicians from Manhattan

:* Propose merging :Category:Writers from the Upper West Side to :Category:People from the Upper West Side and :Category:Writers from Manhattan

:* Propose merging :Category:Actors from Harlem to :Category:People from Harlem and :Category:Actors from Manhattan

:* Propose merging :Category:Artists from Harlem to :Category:People from Harlem and :Category:Artists from Manhattan

:* Propose merging :Category:Lawyers from Harlem to :Category:People from Harlem and :Category:Lawyers from Manhattan

:* Propose merging :Category:Musicians from Harlem to :Category:People from Harlem and :Category:Musicians from Manhattan

:* Propose merging :Category:Politicians from Harlem to :Category:People from Harlem and :Category:Politicians from Manhattan

:* Propose merging :Category:Sportspeople from Harlem to :Category:People from Harlem and :Category:Sportspeople from Manhattan

:* Propose merging :Category:Writers from Harlem to :Category:People from Harlem and :Category:Writers from Manhattan

:Nominator's rationale: Narrow category targets per WP:NARROWCAT WP:OC. No need to further categorize occupations by neighborhoods when they are already categorized by boroughs. Dual merge to parent categories. (edit: added to my rationale) Omnis Scientia (talk) 10:03, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

::Note: have expanded nominations to add similar categorizations from other NYC boroughs. Omnis Scientia (talk) 13:50, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose. Merge. Changed my opinion, probably not the case of WP:NARROWCAT, but it is the case of WP:OCLOCATION, I've just taken a closer look at the articles and noticed that many just briefly lived in these neighborhoods inside Manhattan. (Original text: Doesn't seem too narrow with 20-40 pages. :Category:Musicians from Harlem even has over 100 pages). Deltaspace⁴² (talk • contribs) 11:50, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
• :@Deltaspace42, narrow/overcategorized in that people from NYC neighborhoods shouldn't be further categorized by occupations when they are already categorized by occupations with respect to boroughs. I don't know whether WP:NARROWCAT applies but WP:OC definitely does. Omnis Scientia (talk) 12:38, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
• ::In the case of the "actors" categories, they should be manually merged to :Category:Male actors from Manhattan and :Category:Actresses from Manhattan. Similarly "writers" categories should be manually merged to the appropriate subcategories in :Category:Writers from New York City. And so on. Omnis Scientia (talk) 13:04, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
• :::@Omnis Scientia, yeah, I change my opinion, I shouldn't have just looked at the WP:NARROWCAT and the page count. Deltaspace⁴² (talk • contribs) 13:20, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
• ::::Merge per nom Mason (talk) 20:46, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

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:The result of the discussion was: merge to :Category:People from the Principality of Montenegro. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkltalk 16:48, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

:* Propose splitting :Category:Emigrants from the Principality of Montenegro to :Category:Montenegrin emigrants and :Category:People from the Principality of Montenegro

:Nominator's rationale: Upmerge. No need to make the distinction between political regimes Mason (talk) 00:33, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

• I am neutral about merging as such, but the first target can be stricken anyway because both articles already are in :Category:Montenegrin emigrants to the United States. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:18, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

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: Merge to just :Category:People from the Principality of Montenegro per Marcocapelle. Place Clichy (talk) 07:57, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

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:The result of the discussion was: keep. (non-admin closure) HouseBlaster^talk 17:13, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

:* Propose renaming :Category:Hazzans to :Category:Hazzanim

:* Propose renaming :Category:LGBT hazzans to :Category:LGBT hazzanim

:* Propose renaming :Category:Israeli hazzans to :Category:Israeli hazzanim

:* Propose renaming :Category:Viennese hazzans to :Category:Viennese hazzanim

:* Propose renaming :Category:Women hazzans to :Category:Women hazzanim

:Nominator's rationale The Hebrew plural of hazzan is hazzanim. Since the singular Hebrew hazzan is being used on Wikipedia (as opposed to the English "cantor"), then the plural should be used as well. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 09:13, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

• Comment, the Hazzan article uses "cantors" in plural. Marcocapelle (talk) 14:28, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
• :Yes, but the article title and category title do not. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 05:09, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

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• Oppose. Unnecessary renaming, [https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/hazzan wiktionary] says both are acceptable: {{tq|plural hazzans or hazzanim}}). Moreover, there is an article: Timeline of women hazzans. If the categories are renamed, we should also rename this article. Deltaspace⁴² (talk • contribs) 12:05, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose. Hazzans or cantors are acceptable plurals. No need to be more papist than the Pope here. Place Clichy (talk) 08:07, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: no consensus. No prejudice against renomination. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkltalk 17:10, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

:* Propose renaming :Category:Kuni no miyatsuko to :Category:Kuni no miyatsuko families

:* Propose renaming :Category:Kuni no miyatsuko position holders‎ to ?????

:* Propose renaming :Category:Kuni_no_miyatsukoates to ?????

:Nominator's rationale: I already created two awkward split categories of :Category:Kuni no miyatsuko position holders‎ and :Category:Kuni_no_miyatsukoates which also might need renaming

Kuni no MIyatsuko is an ancient JApanese noble title. Lets talk about it in analogy to a count

:Category:Kuni_no_miyatsuko is countly families and titles.

:Category:Kuni no miyatsuko position holders‎ is counts

:Category:Kuni_no_miyatsukoates is counties (places ruled by a count)

All three need some kind of renaming

This is all rather awkward and clumsy but we need to make the distinction. IT is also worth noting Japanese wikipedia does not make the distinction, so there titleholders, titles, families, and lands are all grouped together

At the moment all articles about titles are in reference to a single family with the title. While this may not always be the case in the indefinite future, I see a split in this direction as not being necessary right now, and likely never necessary since I am unaware of a dynastic change in such titles, only of families that had the title and are still significant after it was abolished. Immanuelle ❤️💚💙 (talk to the cutest Wikipedian) 22:59, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

:To be clear there is zero basis in any literature for :Category:Kuni no miyatsukoates as a term. I just provisionally used it in analogy to Khanate or Shogunate

:An alternative reading of the characters is "Kokuzo" but that one is more ambiguous and I believe a less common but still present reading. Immanuelle ❤️💚💙 (talk to the cutest Wikipedian) 23:12, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

::Request: @Immanuelle Could you consolidate your nomination? It's hard to easily digest what and why you're advocating. Mason (talk) 00:31, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

:::@Smasongarrison I changed my mind about the whole thing, Now currently :Category:Kuni no miyatsuko is a container category for the three other categories. But I still think all of them need to be renamed to fit MOS Immanuelle ❤️💚💙 (talk to the cutest Wikipedian) 09:13, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

• Delete all per WP:NONDEF. Marcocapelle (talk) 10:21, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
• :@Marcocapelle I disagree but I think it is reasonable. Why do you think they are nondefining? Immanuelle ❤️💚💙 (talk to the cutest Wikipedian) 10:54, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
• :* The articles about a deity, a politician, a legendary country and two former provinces. Those are the defining characteristics. Besides the articles have nothing in common with each other. Marcocapelle (talk) 11:04, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
• :@Marcocapelle families I think :Category:Kuni no miyatsuko families is clearly defining. The deity is the first person to have a position that the politician had, which was a Kuni no Miyatsuko position.
• ::Category:Kuni_no_miyatsukoates I think the best point is for Immanuelle ❤️💚💙 (talk to the cutest Wikipedian) 20:52, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
• :* I think I agree on keeping :Category:Kuni no miyatsuko families but this category has not been nominated anyway, right? If it were nominated, it might be renamed to "clans" instead of "families". Marcocapelle (talk) 21:10, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: merge to :Category:People from Assam. (non-admin closure) HouseBlaster^talk 17:05, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:People from Assam Province to :Category:People from Assam

:Nominator's rationale: Overlapping category Mason (talk) 20:34, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

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• Merge, there is no need to split people at subnational level to before and after Indian independence. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:49, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: merge to :Category:Electronic music record labels. No opposition in two weeks. (non-admin closure) HouseBlaster^talk 17:05, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:Electronic dance music record labels to :Category:Electronic music record labels

:Nominator's rationale: Both categories encompass the same group of articles: record labels which release electronic music. The term is more commonly known as "Electronic music", and the need for a second category is superfluous. Jalen Folf (talk) 23:35, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: merge to :Category:Fictional Jews. (non-admin closure) HouseBlaster^talk 17:04, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

:Merge :Category:Fictional Jewish women to :Category:Fictional Jews

:Rationale: Do we really need this? We have no other categories which sort female fictional characters by their ethnicity or religion. AHI-3000 (talk) 06:05, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

• Merge per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 08:01, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.