Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 October 29

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: merge. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkltalk 11:40, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:2000s assassinated politicians by continent to :Category:2000s assassinated politicians

:* Propose merging :Category:1970s assassinated politicians by continent to :Category:1970s assassinated politicians

:Nominator's rationale: Upmerge to aid navigation Mason (talk) 22:25, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

• Merge, redundant category layer. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:04, 30 October 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose, this would empty the 70s and 2000s subcats of :Category:Assassinated politicians by decade, which is otherwise well-populated. No objection to a double merge also to :Category:1970s assassinated politicians and :Category:2000s assassinated politicians. – Fayenatic London 12:15, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

:* That is a good point, it should be a dual merge. Marcocapelle (talk) 19:11, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

:*:Happy to dual merge. My thinking was that this would just place the continent categories into the main decade category. Could you @Fayenatic london point out what the other merge would be? I think I'm missing something really obvious... Mason (talk) 21:19, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

::I'm not sure I follow either. The two categories you suggested for dual merging are the current targets. –Aidan721 (talk) 22:14, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

:::Sorry, just ignore me this time! The 2000s category currently also belongs in :Category:Assassinated politicians by continent, but that's not essential, as its contents will still be contained there via the continent subcats. – Fayenatic London 08:37, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

• Question. How upmerging would aid in navigation? Regards, Thinker78 (talk) 21:26, 4 November 2023 (UTC)
• :Because there are only 5 categories Mason (talk) 20:34, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
• ::Per User:RevelationDirect, {{tq|categories with 5+ consistently survive WP:SMALLCAT in CFD and have for years.}}. Although SmallCat has been deprecated, the precedent seems to point out to 5 categories being the minimum number of members in a category to keep. Plus, the members in this case are subcategories, not just pages. Regards, Thinker78 (talk) 06:22, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
• :::{{ping|Thinker78}}, if I'm reading the nomination correctly, the problem isn't that the nominated categories don't have enough subcats at 5 or 6, it's that they effectively duplicate the parent categories which each have 1 direct subcategory if you look at :Category:1970s assassinated politicians and :Category:2000s assassinated politicians. (Incidentally, I hadn't realized SmallCat had been deprecated, thanks for mentioning it!) - RevelationDirect (talk) 01:45, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
• ::::Your welcome (I was also surprised). Got it, thanks for your input. Regards, Thinker78 (talk) 04:08, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: merge as per Marcocapelle. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkltalk 11:43, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:Executed slave traders to :Category:Slave traders

:* Propose merging :Category:Executed slave owners to :Category:Slave owners

:* Propose merging :Category:Executed American slave owners to :Category:American slave owners and :Category:Executed American people

:Nominator's rationale: Not defining intersection. perhaps purge/rename if the intent is to only include people convicted and executed for slave trading/owning (:Category:Executed people by crime )Mason (talk) 21:44, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

• Support in principle per nom. But for the last category: merge :Category:Executed American slave owners to :Category:American slave owners and split between :Category:17th-century executions of American people, :Category:18th-century executions of American people and :Category:19th-century executions of American people. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:10, 30 October 2023 (UTC)
• :Good catch! I've added the members to their respective :Category:17th-century executions of American people, :Category:18th-century executions of American people and :Category:19th-century executions of American people categories. Because regardless of the outcome, they ought to be in those categories Mason (talk) 00:49, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
• :* Thank you, in that case it becomes single merge :Category:Executed American slave owners to :Category:American slave owners. Marcocapelle (talk) 19:16, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: merge all as nominated. (non-admin closure) HouseBlaster^talk 00:42, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:Slave traders killed in the American Civil War to :Category:19th-century American slave traders

:* Propose merging :Category:Slave owners killed in the American Civil War to :Category:American slave owners

:* Propose merging :Category:Slave owners killed in the American Revolutionary War to :Category:American slave owners

:* Propose merging :Category:American slave owners killed in war to :Category:American slave owners

:Nominator's rationale: I don't think that this intersection of owning slaves and being killed in a war is defining Mason (talk) 21:37, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

• Merge per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:16, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: rename to :Category:Anabolic–androgenic steroids. (non-admin closure) HouseBlaster^talk 00:42, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose renaming :Category:Androgens and anabolic steroids to :Category:Anabolic–androgenic steroids

:Nominator's rationale: The current name is confusing because it suggests that androgens and anabolic steroids (more correctly "anabolic–androgenic steroids") are different molecules, which is not the case. It makes some sense to have separate articles for endogenous (androgen) vs exogenous (anabolic steroid) administration, but the same compound is going to be identical and have identical effect regardless of where it comes from. All endogenously produced androgens are anabolic steroids. The most commonly used exogenous steroid is testosterone, which is also endogenously produced. (t · c) buidhe 20:55, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

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::Tentative support. I think that everything @Buidhe has written here sounds reasonable. I just don't have any content knowledge to lean upon (and I suspect that others might feel similarly). Mason (talk) 00:53, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: rename. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkltalk 11:45, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose renaming :Category:People and person templates by country to :Category:People and person templates by nationality

:* Propose renaming :Category:People and person navigational boxes by country to :Category:People and person navigational boxes by nationality

:* Propose renaming :Category:Comics creator navigational boxes by country to :Category:Comics creator navigational boxes by nationality

:* Propose renaming :Category:United Kingdom people and person templates to :Category:British people and person templates

:* Propose renaming :Category:United Kingdom people and person navigational boxes to :Category:British people and person navigational boxes

:* Propose renaming :Category:United States people and person navigational boxes to :Category:American people and person navigational boxes

:* Propose renaming :Category:United States musician navigational boxes to :Category:American musician navigational boxes

:* Propose renaming :Category:Switzerland people and persons navigational boxes to :Category:Swiss people and person navigational boxes

:Nominator's rationale: This tree currently uses a mixture of country and nationality. All the people and person templates should use nationality. There are many more inconsistent subcats which can be renamed speedily if these are agreed. – Fayenatic London 07:11, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

• Note: I suggest that the national crime template sub-categories should remain "by country", as they do not only hold biographies; but they can remain as sub-cats. – Fayenatic London 08:10, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

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• Rename per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:37, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: merge. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkltalk 11:48, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:Lists of museums in insular areas of the United States to :Category:Lists of museums in the United States by populated place

:Nominator's rationale: WP:NARROWCAT. The lone article is List of museums in Ponce, Puerto Rico. –Aidan721 (talk) 18:18, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose. The insular areas of the US are not "IN the United States" (as the new merge-to category suggests ["Lists of museums IN the United States by populated place]"); instead, they are in the insular areas "OF the United States". Only the 50 states and DC are "IN " the United States. The territories are, instead, possessions of the United States and not part of the United States. As such, placing the contents of the current merge-from category into the merge-to category of the herein request wouldn't be a factual reflection of reality as it would be inconsistent with the relationship between the territories and the United States as defined by the US Congress and the Supreme Court of the United States, as well as numerous other organizations and authorities.
  

:The fact there's a single article in the merge-from category is insignificant here because the predominant factor here is the failure of the proposed merge-to category to properly represent factual reality to begin with. There's good information about this HERE. Mercy11 (talk) 21:34, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

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::Support, because "in" is for indicating location. Mason (talk) 21:29, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

::Support per Mason. If the category name is inaccurate, it can be renamed. In any case, there should only be one category – whatever its name. HouseBlaster^talk 13:44, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: merge. The last two categories have been deleted (from another discussion) and as such will not be merged. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkltalk 11:52, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:Charter preparatory schools in the United States by state or territory to :Category:Charter preparatory schools in the United States

:* Propose merging :Category:Charter schools in the United States by state or territory and organization to :Category:Charter schools in the United States by organization

:* Propose merging :Category:Charter school organizations in the United States by state or territory to :Category:Charter school organizations in the United States

:* Propose merging :Category:Catholic preparatory schools in the United States by state or territory to :Category:Catholic preparatory schools in the United States

:* Propose merging :Category:Catholic K–8 schools in the United States by state or territory to :Category:Catholic K–8 schools in the United States

:Nominator's rationale: Unnecessary layer. Only one sub-category each. –Aidan721 (talk) 16:34, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

• Merge per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 16:50, 11 October 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose. The territories of the US are not "IN the United States" (as the new merge-to category suggests); instead, they are in the insular areas "OF the United States". Only the 50 states and DC are "IN " the United States. The territories are, instead, possessions of the United States and not part of the United States. As such, the merge-to categories resulting from the herein request wouldn't be a factual reflection of reality as it would be inconsistent with the relationship between the territories and the United States as defined by the US Congress and the Supreme Court of the United States, as well as numerous other organizations and authorities. In fact, even the merge-from category is wrongly named as it presumes the territories are IN the United States (per the current category's own name), which is also incorrect. There's good information about this HERE. Mercy11 (talk) 21:11, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

:* {{ping|Mercy11}} I do not understand your oppose because none of the merge targets is "by state or territory". Marcocapelle (talk) 06:29, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

:::In this explanation, I will pick one of the 5 merger proposals above, but corresponding explanations would apply to the other 4 merge proposals.

:::Say there was a notable Catholic preparatory school (merge proposal #4 above) located in Ponce, Puerto Rico, named Colegio Ponceño which, because of its notability, has an article in WP.

:::Since such school is said to be located in Puerto Rico, which is a territory of the US, under the existing pre-nomination categorization scheme such school could, theoretically, be categorized under :Category:Catholic preparatory schools in the United States by state or territory.

:::Now, if the merger nomination was to go thru, it would result in that school (and similar schools) to come to be categorized under the proposed :Category:Catholic preparatory schools in the United States, giving the (factually wrongful) impression that the school is located IN the United States. Since Puerto Rico is not IN the United States then, to correct the anomaly, either Colegio Ponceño (and, of course, potentially all the others, if any other "territorial" schools were already categorized under the current :Category:Catholic preparatory schools in the United States by state or territory) would need to be removed from such subcat or, if left in it, the contents of the subcat would consist of article(s) that did not belong under such subcat. Mercy11 (talk) 21:34, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

:::* {{ping|Mercy11}} understood, except there isn't any Puerto Rican entry under :Category:Catholic preparatory schools in the United States by state or territory. The only effect of the merge proposal is that the Californian subcategory is re-parented. What is against that? Marcocapelle (talk) 11:07, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

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::Support per nom. "in" is for indicating location, whereas "of" is vague. Mason (talk) 14:18, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

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• Note: the Catholic categories have been merged per the separate nomination at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 October 8#Category:Catholic preparatory schools in the United States by state. – Fayenatic London 10:49, 2 November 2023 (UTC)
• Support. The opposing rationale of Mercy11 carries no weight in these specific nominations as the only sub-cats are "schools in California". – Fayenatic London 10:51, 2 November 2023 (UTC)
• Support No need for the layered overlapping categories. Reywas92^Talk 04:08, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
• Support per above. The category can be renamed if appropriate. HouseBlaster^talk 13:45, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: merge and rename per nomination. – Fayenatic London 22:04, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:1920s Soviet and Russian military aircraft to :Category:1920s Soviet military aircraft

:* Propose renaming :Category:1920s Soviet and Russian bomber aircraft to :Category:1920s Soviet bomber aircraft

:* Propose renaming :Category:1920s Soviet and Russian military reconnaissance aircraft to :Category:1920s Soviet military reconnaissance aircraft

:* Propose renaming :Category:1920s Soviet and Russian military trainer aircraft to :Category:1920s Soviet military trainer aircraft

:Nominator's rationale: merge/rename per actual content, these are all Soviet aircraft. This is follow-up on this earlier discussion. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:36, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

::Support. I can’t think of any scenario where a “Russian and Soviet”/“Soviet and Russian” category should be retained.  —Michael Z. 17:34, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

:::Support per nom Mason (talk) 14:17, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

• Comment: this drastic change will require template rewriting and coordination with WT:WikiProject Aircraft, as written in my above comment.Place Clichy (talk) 00:52, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

":See my response to your above comment. Basically, don't worry about the templating, just get on with it. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 16:13, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: split and rename per nomination. – Fayenatic London 22:05, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose splitting :Category:1990s Soviet and Russian military aircraft to :Category:1990s Soviet military aircraft and :Category:1990s Soviet military aircraft

:* Propose renaming :Category:1990s Soviet and Russian anti-submarine aircraft to :Category:1990s Russian anti-submarine aircraft

:* Propose renaming :Category:1990s Soviet and Russian attack aircraft to :Category:1990s Soviet attack aircraft

:* Propose renaming :Category:1990s Soviet and Russian military reconnaissance aircraft to :Category:1990s Russian military reconnaissance aircraft

:* Propose renaming :Category:1990s Soviet and Russian military trainer aircraft to :Category:1990s Russian military trainer aircraft

:* Propose renaming :Category:1990s Soviet and Russian military transport aircraft to :Category:1990s Russian military transport aircraft

:Nominator's rationale: split/rename per precedent to either Russian or Soviet, this is follow-up on this earlier discussion. Marcocapelle (talk) 21:04, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

::Support. I can’t think of any scenario where a “Russian and Soviet”/“Soviet and Russian” category should be retained.  —Michael Z. 17:33, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

:::Support per nom. Mason (talk) 14:17, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

• Comment: actually it's a little bit more complicated than that. These aircraft categories are populated by a complex net of templates, such as {{tl|airnd}}. These templates consider that the Soviet and Russian aircraft industry is one and the same industry, something that can be argued. It's the same for the Czech/Czechoslovak, the Yugoslav/Serbian, the Autrian/Austro-Hungarian and I believe the Ottoman/Turkish aircraft industries (the last 2 for aircraft built before and during WWI). As a consequence IIRC, decades categories for aircraft built in... can use just "Russian" or "Soviet", but timeless parent categories, as well as decades where both names are required use "Soviet and Russian", "Czech and Czechoslovak" etc. If you want to change that without breaking things, especially the categorization and navigation template, I strongly suggest to raise it to WT:WikiProject Aircraft and ask for advice. Template rewriting will be necessary to reorganize categories. Otherwise, you end up, as with {{diff2|1176681456|this edit}}, with redundant navigation templates and parent categories set at a location that you want to delete. Place Clichy (talk) 00:38, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

:* I will notify the WikiProject. This means that after closure of the discussion it should be added to Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Working/Manual. Marcocapelle (talk) 09:33, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

:*Setting aside the usefulness or otherwise of these category templates, at least some distinguish between the various eras and political entities, for example by the 1990s automatically listing Russian rather than "Soviet and Russian". So the issue really only applies to templating the pre-breakup era. Here, I'd be firmly in favour of changing "Soviet and Russian" to plain "Soviet". Otherwise, we will hit other transition groups such as Antonov being Soviet at the start of the decade and Ukrainian at the end. Cue endless "Soviet and Ukrainian", "Soviet and Yugoslavian", "Soviet and Romanian", etc. in the auto-generated lists. It doesn't bear thinking about. It is not beyond the wit of man (the species) to review the templating system here, it is very evidently a work in hand in any case, and I notice other existing hiccups with them here and there in the treatment of the Soviet vs Russian issue. So, as an active member of said WikiProject, I'd suggest you just get on with it and leave the template meisters to catch up as and when they please. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 16:12, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

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::: Pre-split are already just Soviet. Except the 1910s which are also Russian. The issue is not with the templating. It is that the WikiProject considers that the Soviet and Russian industries are one and the same, and hence the parent time-independent categories are, and should be, at e.g. Soviet and Russian military aircraft. {{Re|Steelpillow}} "{{tq|So, as an active member of said WikiProject, I'd suggest you just get on with it...}}" Sorry, I just did not get that. Who is a member of which WikiProject, and who will do what as a consequence? Place Clichy (talk) 02:44, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

:::** This means that after closure of the discussion it should be added to Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Working/Manual and a notification should be left at the WikiProject talk page. (Expanding my earlier comment) Marcocapelle (talk) 06:26, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: merge to :Category:Korean expatriates in Manchukuo. bibliomaniac15 04:39, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:Korean people of Manchukuo to :Category:Korean expatriates in Manchukuo

:Nominator's rationale: I think the scope of this category is a bit unclear. It encompasses both expats and people born in Manchukuo, but expats are probably much greater in number given that Manchukuo didn't last too long. Not 100% sure but I think a solution is using the {{cl|Korean expatriates in Manchukuo}} category I created for expats, and moving the people born in Manchukuo to a category called "People from Manchukuo" or something. Currently {{cl|People of Manchukuo}} and {{cl|Japanese people from Manchukuo}} exist, not sure what to do about them... toobigtokale (talk) 22:44, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

• Purge people who merely lived here as a child, for them it is not defining. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:20, 11 October 2023 (UTC)
• :Support merge. But, if we do end up keeping ":Korean people of Manchukuo " I recommend renaming it to "from" to identicate that this is a group of people who are from the area, rather than just happen to be in the area (per expatr) Mason (talk) 18:53, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

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• Merge and purge per participants. No other consensus in support of additional categories, which can be created out of process. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 03:38, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: no consensus. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkltalk 11:54, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:People from the State of Palestine to :Category:Palestinian people

:Nominator's rationale: In the case of other countries, we typically do not have a similar category. For individuals with ancestors of Palestinian Arab descent, we already maintain a category called :Category:People of Palestinian descent. Additionally, for Palestinians from the diaspora in general, we have a category named :Category:Palestinian diaspora. Thus propose upmerge into :Category:Palestinian people. Kpratter (talk) 09:49, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

• Comment, this seems contrary to the definition in article Palestinians which includes the diaspora. Marcocapelle (talk) 13:06, 6 October 2023 (UTC)
• :@Marcocapelle from my understanding, Palestinians as an ethnic group are categorized under :Category:Palestinians, whereas Palestinians as a nationality, meaning citizens of the State of Palestine, are placed in :Category:Palestinian people. Since a significant portion of the Palestinian diaspora are not citizens of the State of Palestine, they are classified under the :Category:Palestinians tree. Kpratter (talk) 13:14, 6 October 2023 (UTC)
• :* I see, so we have three category layers (:Category:Palestinians, :Category:People from the State of Palestine and :Category:Palestinian people) while we need two. Then the proposed merge may work, although a reverse merge might work better to avoid ambiguity. Marcocapelle (talk) 13:21, 6 October 2023 (UTC)
• :*:I'm fine with a reverse merge too. In making my initial proposal, I proceeded from the fact that almost all current nationalities are named in the adjective format (Fooian people), while for historical countries the format People from Foo seems to be the main one. Kpratter (talk) 13:33, 6 October 2023 (UTC)
• :*:* Let's then reverse merge and convert :Category:Palestinian people to a disambiguation page. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:57, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
• If the above is agreed, then the subsequent follow-up would need careful thought about the sub-cats "Palestinian people by X". I think {{c|Palestinian people by century‎}}, {{c|20th-century Palestinian people by occupation‎}} etc should include diaspora and therefore use "Palestinians"; the alternative "20th-century people from the State of Palestine" would be too obviously anachronistic. {{c|Palestinian people by ethnic or national origin‎}} should likewise probably use "Palestinians", e.g. Rula Jebreal (:Category:Palestinian people of Nigerian descent) self-describes as Palestinian but is not from the State of Palestine. The subcats of {{c|Palestinian people by political orientation}} include people back in the Mandatory Palestine days, so also need to be "Palestinians". Perhaps they should all use "Palestinians" except for the cats by populated place & by university. – Fayenatic London 11:50, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

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• Note that the nominator was blocked as a sock. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 22:44, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

:* Their argument in this discussion still holds. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:42, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

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• Mild oppose as this is just not an improvement, especially due to the plural and complex meaning of the word Palestinian. (Until 1948, and even maybe after that, those who would become the Israeli Jews called themselves Palestinian too: their newspaper was The Palestine Post and they competed in the World Cup with the Palestine football team.) It is at first glance a good idea to have a dedicated category for content directly linked to the modern-day State of Palestine. However I would not merge or rename the present tree at {{Cl|Palestinian people}}, because State of Palestine is too time-specific. Place Clichy (talk) 02:55, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

:* {{ping|Place Clichy}} I am not entirely sure if you understood the logic of the nomination. The point is that we now three categories while we only need two, namely for people from the State of Palestine (time-specific indeed, and location-specific) and for Palestinians anywhere any time (as a parent). I am also open to variant merge proposals that reach that goal. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:35, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: no consensus. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkltalk 12:00, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting {{lc|20th-century sportsmen by nationality}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|20th-century sportspeople by nationality}}

:* Propose merging :Category:20th-century Albanian sports coaches to :Category:Albanian sports coaches

:* Propose merging :Category:20th-century Albanian sportspeople to :Category:Albanian sportspeople and :Category:20th-century Albanian people

:* Propose merging :Category:20th-century American sportsmen to :Category:American sportsmen and :Category:20th-century American people

:* Propose merging :Category:20th-century American sportspeople to :Category:American sportspeople and :Category:20th-century American people

:* Propose merging :Category:20th-century American sportswomen to :Category:20th-century American women and :Category:American sportswomen

:* Propose merging :Category:20th-century Canadian sportswomen to :Category:20th-century Canadian women and :Category:Canadian sportswomen

:* Propose merging :Category:20th-century Polish sportsmen to :Category:20th-century Polish people and :Category:Polish sportsmen

:* Propose merging :Category:20th-century Polish sportswomen to :Category:20th-century Polish women and :Category:Polish sportswomen

:* Propose merging :Category:20th-century Swiss sportsmen to :Category:Swiss sportsmen and :Category:20th-century Swiss people

:* Propose merging :Category:20th-century Swiss sportspeople to :Category:Swiss sportspeople

:* Propose merging :Category:20th-century Turkish sportswomen to :Category:20th-century Turkish women and :Category:Turkish sportswomen

:* Propose merging :Category:20th-century Uruguayan sportspeople to :Category:20th-century Uruguayan people and :Category:Uruguayan sportspeople

:* Propose merging :Category:21st-century Albanian sports coaches to :Category:Albanian sports coaches and :Category:21st-century Albanian people

:* Propose merging :Category:21st-century Albanian sportspeople to :Category:Albanian sportspeople and :Category:21st-century Albanian people

:* Propose merging :Category:21st-century American sportsmen to :Category:21st-century American people and :Category:American sportsmen

:* Propose merging :Category:21st-century American sportswomen to :Category:American sportswomen and :Category:21st-century American women

:* Propose merging :Category:21st-century Canadian sportspeople to :Category:21st-century Canadian people and :Category:Canadian sportspeople

:* Propose merging :Category:21st-century Canadian sportswomen to :Category:21st-century Canadian women and :Category:Canadian sportswomen

:* Propose merging :Category:21st-century Polish sportsmen to :Category:21st-century Polish people and :Category:Polish sportsmen

:* Propose merging :Category:21st-century Polish sportswomen to :Category:21st-century Polish women and :Category:Polish sportswomen

:Nominator's rationale: There's been a clear consensus that by-century categorizes of sportspeople are not appropriate beyond the 19th-century. per Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2018_January_12#20th/21st-century_sportspeople2018_January_12#20th/21st-century_sportspeople, and Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2010_March_7#The_last_sportspeople_by_century and I think we should salt this category, as I know that I inadvertently created it, not realizing the history. Mason (talk) 15:28, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

::I created the American sportspeople by century categories, as the 20th/21st century American people categories were overwhelmed by the number of sportspeople biographies. Because both those categories ask that pages be moved to subcategories when possible, I thought it made sense to make those subcategories to make those larger categories more manageable. Furthermore, I'm not sure I understand why sportspeople by century categories are seen as inappropriate, while writers/artists/actors/etc by century are not. ForsythiaJo (talk) 17:13, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

:::Comment. I created several categories based on the same reasoning, as the home category became overwhelming. But it seems that the heart of the argument is that it isn't helpful to distinguish between 21st-century and 20th-century. @Hugo999 had a good suggestion of bundling by event and year Mason (talk) 20:03, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

{{cot|2018 Hugo999 suggestion}}

Comment. Concur provided some categories are not dumped into the overall "20th-century people" (or 21st century) category; I recall that the "20th-century people" category was swamped with entries for competitors at individual games; eg the 19XX Olympic Games, Paralympic Games, Commonwealth Games, Pan American Games, Francophone Games etc etc (in which case I would prefer that the sportspeople by century categories were retained for these categories by event!). Otherwise I would propose that there be an overall category for each event, eg by renaming :Category:20th-century Commonwealth Games competitors by year to :Category:Commonwealth Games competitors by year. Similarly upmerge :Category:20th-century Olympic competitors by year and :Category:21st-century Olympic competitors by year (with no category for the 1896 Athens Olympics!) to :Category:Olympic competitors by year Hugo999 (talk) 8:03 pm, 30 January 2018, Tuesday (5 years, 8 months, 8 days ago) (UTC−5)

{{cob}}

• Selectively merge, I expect most articles are already in some other subcategories of the targets. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:44, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose, pending discussion of a better way. I'm not opposed in principle to the notion that these categories aren't helpful — I'd actually almost rather discuss doing away with all ""XX-century people" categories across the board, because they often cause more trouble than they're actually worth (redlinked parent categories autogenerated by templates, editwarring over anachronistic names, people trying to expand this genre of categorization into ethnicities and cities and other points of intersection where it's spectacularly useless, etc.), but not all of the proposed merge targets here are wise choices. {{cl|20th-century American people}}, for example, is already significantly overpopulated as it is, with 2,192 articles in it — it needs to have as many articles as possible diffused out of it rather than having several hundred more articles undiffused into it. That category needs to be made at least 90 (and preferably 95) per cent smaller than it is, not 30 to 40 per cent larger — so if a sportspeople subcategory is needed to get several hundred articles out of the overpopulated parent, then a sportspeople subcategory absolutely has to be permitted, because limiting the size of that parent is an absolutely essential and critical need.
  I'd certainly agree that having separate sub-subcategories for sportsmen and sportswomen is overdoing it, but a desire to do away with 20th/21st-century categorization on the sports side cannot override the urgency of reducing the category size on the 20th/21st-century Nationality side. The latter is a more important consideration than the former, not vice versa. Bearcat (talk) 14:45, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

:* I agree with the problem (overcrowding of the categories) but I would solve it in a different direction, namely deleting all 20th- and 21st-century people categories. Century categories are only useful for outright history, not for the more recent past, since the large amount of Wikipedia content is about the recent past. Marcocapelle (talk) 18:04, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

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:Further comment: Include :Category:21st-century Israeli sportswomen in discussion.Hugo999 (talk) 12:17, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

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• Support in principle, but suggest merging to just :Category:Albanian sportspeople etc. and not :Category:20th-century Albanian people. I agree with the nominator that 20th and 21st century categories are not useful for sportspeople, and I also agree with Bearcat that the parent century/nationality people categories are too overcrowded to be useful either. We have other, better ways (such as DOBs, championships etc.) to place these people on the time scale. Place Clichy (talk) 03:03, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
• Question: why do you want to merge "Category:20th-century X sportsmen" to "Category:20th-century X people]]", and not "Category:20th-century X men]]"? And also if centuries categories are useless for sportspeople why merge it to another centuries categories? How is that resolving the issue? Marcelus (talk) 08:05, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
• :@Marcelus I didn't suggest men to merge because my understanding is that Fooian men categories are typically not defining. Mason (talk) 23:16, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose Keep these categories as 20th-century Fooian women sportspeople is a subcategory of 20th-century Fooian women and the sportswoman will probably not otherwise be in that category. We are not discussing whether all these people by century should be abolished! (Usually the argument is that some categories have too few in them rather than too many!) Hugo999 (talk) 22:15, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: merge to :Category:Russian male silent film actors. (non-admin closure) HouseBlaster^talk 00:41, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:Male silent film actors from the Russian Empire to :Category:Russian male silent film actors

:Nominator's rationale: Overlapping category Mason (talk) 15:26, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

• Merge, this is a too modern sort of occupation for which we do not need an Empire subcat. Marcocapelle (talk) 17:27, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
• Merge per nom. The only actor in this category was only active after the Empire had ended. Place Clichy (talk) 03:05, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: dual merge to :Category:Russian male film actors and :Category:Male actors from the Russian Empire. (non-admin closure) HouseBlaster^talk 00:40, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose splitting :Category:Male film actors from the Russian Empire to :Category:Russian male film actors and :Category:Male actors from the Russian Empire

:Nominator's rationale: Dual merge as this intersection (regime, gender, medium of performance, and occupation) seems like a lot, especially since combined only one of the actors acted in a single "russian empire film" Mason (talk) 15:24, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

• Merge, this is a too modern sort of occupation for which we do not need an Empire subcat. Marcocapelle (talk) 17:29, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
• Merge per nom. The only actors in this category were only active after the Empire had ended. Place Clichy (talk) 03:05, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: merge to :Category:Russian film score composers. (non-admin closure) HouseBlaster^talk 00:39, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:Film score composers from the Russian Empire to :Category:Russian film score composers

:Nominator's rationale: neither of the category members were film composures while the russian empire was in existence. Mason (talk) 15:13, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

• Merge, also because this is a too modern sort of occupation for which we do not need an Empire subcat. Marcocapelle (talk) 17:30, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
• Merge per nom. Place Clichy (talk) 03:06, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: merge to :Category:20th-century Russian painters. (non-admin closure) HouseBlaster^talk 00:38, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:20th-century painters from the Russian Empire to :Category:20th-century Russian painters

:Nominator's rationale: overlapping category, norm is for 20th century to be called russian Mason (talk) 14:38, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

• Merge, both articles are still in :Category:19th-century painters from the Russian Empire and 17 years in the 20th century is too short for a separate occupational category. Marcocapelle (talk) 17:33, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure) HouseBlaster^talk 17:15, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Kavi Kag}}

:Nominator's rationale: two page in category. one is an award named in honor of the writer Kavi Kag Mason (talk) 13:38, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

• Delete per WP:OCEPON. If anything we would rather have a category of works. Marcocapelle (talk) 17:43, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: merge to :Category:Quran translations. (non-admin closure) HouseBlaster^talk 13:54, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:Quranic translation to :Category:Quran translations

:Nominator's rationale: The scope of this category says "Articles relating to Quran translations". The scope of :Category:Quran translations is the same. Redtigerxyz ^Talk 11:30, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

• Merge per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 12:00, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
• :Support per nom Mason (talk) 12:44, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
• Manual merge being careful with parent categories. The comparable :Category:Bible versions and translations contains {{c|Bible translators}}, so it is acceptable for {{c|Quran translators}} to go down into the target. – Fayenatic London 10:59, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: Rename * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 04:08, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose renaming :Category:1992–93 in Yugoslav football to :Category:1992–93 in Federal Republic of Yugoslavia football

:Nominator's rationale: There's a single article here that uses just "Yugoslavia" and it's the story of how they got banned by FIFA from an event because of the sanctions. --Joy (talk) 10:34, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

• Support, earlier there was no consensus for renaming to "Serbia and Montenegro" so then this is the next best solution. Marcocapelle (talk) 12:12, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
• Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related page discussions. GiantSnowman 19:53, 30 October 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose to keep in-line with category naming tree at {{cat|Seasons in Yugoslav football}}. Needs a wider discussion. GiantSnowman 19:54, 30 October 2023 (UTC)
• :@GiantSnowman we had the wider discussion N times already, but people keep ignoring the main space consensus. The latest iteration was in Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 October 12#Serbia and Montenegro where we had "no consensus" because the discussion was "too wide". This is now a bureaucratic waste of everyone's time. --Joy (talk) 14:05, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
• :And I just re-read that and it was *you* who told me there to re-nominate in significantly smaller batches. What is this? Is this some sort of a weird game? --Joy (talk) 14:11, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
• ::There is no 'main space consensus' if the last CFD you referred to was 'no consensus'. The issue at the CFD you refer to was not 'Yugoslav' or 'Federal Republic of Yugoslavia' as this is, it was 'Yugoslavia' or 'Serbia and Montenegro'. GiantSnowman 18:20, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
• :::That is incorrect, there is main space consensus evidenced by a total lack of a content dispute about this matter in probably decades now. The closer of the CFD @Qwerfjkl didn't bother to tell us their rationale for the 'no consensus' closure so it's hard to fathom what is the rationale or the extent of that decision. --Joy (talk) 18:47, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
• ::::@Joy, the rationale for renaming was fairly compelling, more so than most of the oppose !votes. That said there were quite a few different rationales for opposing, and taken together I didn't see consesnsus either way. Qwerfjkltalk 19:02, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
• :::::I think you need to assume that you have much more agency to not just take various !votes together, but to deduce a coherent outcome of the discussion. If arguments are made and then refuted, the closer needs to be free to weigh these as less. If we just take them all together it implies the discussion is some sort of an amorphous blob that can't be figured out, which it should not be. --Joy (talk) 15:53, 2 November 2023 (UTC)
• ::::::@Joy, that is true, but with many different arguments it is hard to say that one side is clearly stronger than the other. Often it's better to start a more focused discussion again based off the previous one, especially in complex cases like this where many editors are involved.
• ::::::(Sorry for the belated response.) Qwerfjkltalk 12:14, 11 November 2023 (UTC)
• :::::::(Please ping me on reply.) Qwerfjkltalk 12:16, 11 November 2023 (UTC)
• ::: The argument here can be compared to the ones made at Talk:May 1992 Yugoslavian parliamentary election#Requested move 3 November 2023, where we also have a lax usage of "Yugoslavia"/"Yugoslav". --Joy (talk) 13:32, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
• :@GiantSnowman can I ask you to review the arguments for using :Category:1992–93 in Federal Republic of Yugoslavia football here? --Joy (talk) 09:36, 20 November 2023 (UTC)
• ::Sure, seems sensible now. GiantSnowman 18:47, 20 November 2023 (UTC)
• Support - I agree that ambiguity between SFR Yugoslavia and FR Yugoslavia is needed. I'll be honest, I'm not a fan of the proposed title purely because I find it awkward to read (that might just be a personal preference which isn't a good reason to oppose it). I can't think of a more suitable alternative though. Stevie fae Scotland (talk) 22:46, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
• :Would any of these be better: :Category:1992–93 in Federal Republic of Yugoslavia football or :Category:1992–93 in Serbia and Montenegro football or :Category:1992–93 in Serbian and Montenegrin football? --Joy (talk) 08:17, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
• ::I think :Category:1992–93 in Federal Republic of Yugoslavia football would work. It clears up the ambiguity and also reflects that sources refer to it as Yugoslavia or FR Yugoslavia rather than Serbia and Montenegro (I realise my first comment was confusing now because I've written ambiguity rather than disambiguation, hope that clears it up). Stevie fae Scotland (talk) 23:16, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
• :::The problem with saying sources here is that all of the articles in this category actually seem to be pretty badly referenced, with sources either being primary ones, directly subordinated to FRY officials who pushed their state propaganda of "we're Yugoslavia, pay no attention to all those wars, tis but a flesh wound" or the RSSSF which is basically WP:BLOG? --Joy (talk) 12:21, 11 November 2023 (UTC)
• ::::Both [https://www.uefa.com/european-qualifiers/match/69257--italy-vs-yugoslavia/ UEFA] and [https://web.archive.org/web/20071126043151/http://www.fifa.com/worldcup/archive/edition=4395/preliminaries/preliminary=3835/matches/match=19565/report.html FIFA] refer to them as Yugoslavia. RSSSF is an established subject-matter expert. It has been discussed before and further information was provided to establish its reliability. Stevie fae Scotland (talk) 15:07, 11 November 2023 (UTC)
• :::::@Stevie fae Scotland those links from UEFA and FIFA are from 2000 and 2002 when the FRY became internationally recognized, and in turn a year before it got formally renamed to S&M. Also, football organizations have a rather spotty record about weird state changes, I remember discussions about how they handled World War II puppet states. Also, I don't quite see a clear consensus about how everything RSSSF includes is reliable from the linked discussion. --Joy (talk) 09:24, 20 November 2023 (UTC)
• ::::::Unfortunately, we have to use archived sources from FIFA because they no longer keep historical match information accessible on their website. The UEFA link is not from 2000 though. That is the current state of the website and is definitely not the link they used originally for that match. It has been updated and reformatted to match the current website so shows that UEFA still refer to them as FR Yugoslavia. Not everything on any website is reliable but that doesn't mean they aren't a reliable source. Even the BBC make mistakes but no one is going to argue they aren't reliable. Given the vast amount of information on RSSSF, there will be one or two mistakes but it is a reliable source and like the BBC, they correct mistakes. Stevie fae Scotland (talk) 10:39, 20 November 2023 (UTC)
• :::::::OK. Just to reiterate, because long threads tend to alienate people :) whatever we discussed here in this subthread has less bearing on the proposed rename - we agree it's an improvement to categorize as FRY instead of just Yugoslav. --Joy (talk) 11:45, 20 November 2023 (UTC)
• Comment: there is an open discussion with impact on this one. At {{section link|Talk:May 1992 Yugoslavian parliamentary election|Requested move 3 November 2023}}, there is a consensus building whether to use "Yugoslavia" or "Serbia and Montenegro" to call the country in the period between 1992 and 2003. I believe we should follow the verdict of this widely attended RM, when it is closed. Place Clichy (talk) 23:14, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

:: In the meantime that discussion was closed with no consensus, and there the option to move to was S&M, not FRY. Since we didn't even get a {{tq|verdict}} on whether to use FRY, it's rather immaterial. --Joy (talk) 09:32, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: delete. bibliomaniac15 04:31, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose renaming :Category:1992–93 in Yugoslav basketball to :Category:1992–93 in Serbian and Montenegrin basketball

:Nominator's rationale: This is a subcategory of :Category:Seasons in Yugoslav basketball, but the breakup of Yugoslavia was not a trivial event for Yugoslav basketball. All these post-92 seasons are talking about Serbia and Montenegro instead, so it makes more sense to move this to actually say so. Trying to factor in "Federal Republic of Yugoslavia" into this seems pointless. --Joy (talk) 10:32, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

• There aren't currently any articles in this category. Where are they? Marcocapelle (talk) 12:02, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
• :It used to contain Template:OKK Beograd 1992–93 Yugoslav Basketball Cup Winner which I tried to move to a Serbian subcategory, which doesn't actually exist, d'oh. The other one was 1992–93 FIBA European Championship Regular Season Group A which I don't know why it would belong there, as Partizan is listed as not actually playing? --Joy (talk) 17:58, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
• :* Ok then better withdraw the nomination and tag the category page as empty. Marcocapelle (talk) 21:03, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
• :*:Nah I just put it back there, because this was presumably a Serbia and Montenegro cup indeed. --Joy (talk) 09:59, 30 October 2023 (UTC)
• ::Templates do not belong in mainspace categories anyways per WP:CAT#T. –Aidan721 (talk) 22:17, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
• Delete, it does not make sense to keep a non-template category that only contains one template and no articles (if not deleted, rename to FRY or Serbia and Montenegro). Marcocapelle (talk) 20:28, 30 October 2023 (UTC)
• Comment Yes, the category has been emptied. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 03:52, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: rename to :Category:2001 establishments in the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. (non-admin closure) HouseBlaster^talk 17:14, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose renaming :Category:2001 establishments in Yugoslavia to :Category:2001 establishments in the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia

:Nominator's rationale: The country where this was happening wasn't Yugoslavia, it was the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. Joy (talk) 09:55, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

• Support, earlier there was no consensus for renaming to "Serbia and Montenegro" so then this is the next best solution. Marcocapelle (talk) 12:13, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: delete all four in the updated nomination. (non-admin closure) HouseBlaster^talk 13:51, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting {{lc|21st century in Yugoslavia}}

:Nominator's rationale: Sadly we couldn't make progress at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 October 12#Serbia and Montenegro. This category name makes no sense, because for most readers the concept of Yugoslavia is unrelated to the 21st century. This category hasn't got the sibling category :Category:20th century in Yugoslavia because that was deleted saying so. Keeping this is nonsensical. --Joy (talk) 09:48, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

: Same should apply to :Category:Years of the 21st century in Yugoslavia --Joy (talk) 09:57, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

• Delete per nom. I will tag the 21st-century subcategories. Marcocapelle (talk) 12:15, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting {{lc|21st-century disestablishments in Yugoslavia}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|21st-century establishments in Yugoslavia}}

:* Propose deleting :Category:Years of the 21st century in Yugoslavia

• I'm not sure who added these but it makes sense. The first of the three actually contains :Category:2000 disestablishments in Yugoslavia‎ which in turn contains :Category:2000 disestablishments in Bosnia and Herzegovina‎, which is just weird and wrong. The second contains e.g. Radivoj Korać Cup which ostensibly started at the time when Montenegro was part of the federation, but I don't think it makes a single mention of a Montenegro topic, so it might as well just be listed as an establishment in Serbia. --Joy (talk) 03:04, 4 November 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: delete both (non-admin closure) HouseBlaster^talk 17:14, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Indo-European art}}

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Iranic art}} added November 1st

:Nominator's rationale: delete, trivial intersection between art and language family. Marcocapelle (talk) 09:20, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

::support per nom Mason (talk) 12:50, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

• Delete per nom. Place Clichy (talk) 03:18, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
• : {{Re|Marcocapelle}} may I suggest to also delete {{Cl|Iranic art}}, which is also a language-family container, of just {{C|Persian art}} and {{C|Scythian art}}? I checked all other child categories and articles, and they are all already in better categories such as {{Cl|Ancient art}} or {{Cl|Iron Age art of Europe}}, so nothing is lost with deletion. Place Clichy (talk) 04:04, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
• :* Good catch, thank you. I have added it to the nomination. There is more to that, e.g. :Category:Battles involving Iranian peoples but let's leave that to later. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:38, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: merge all as nominated. (non-admin closure) HouseBlaster^talk 17:12, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:Executed American female serial killers to :Category:Executed female serial killers and :Category:Executed American serial killers and :Category:American female serial killers and :Category:Executed American women

:* Propose merging :Category:Executed Australian female serial killers to :Category:Executed female serial killers and :Category:Executed Australian serial killers and :Category:Australian female serial killers and :Category:Executed Australian women

:* Propose merging :Category:Executed Austrian female serial killers to :Category:Executed female serial killers and :Category:Executed Austrian serial killers and :Category:Austrian female serial killers and :Category:Executed Austrian women

:* Propose merging :Category:Executed British female serial killers to :Category:Executed female serial killers and :Category:Executed British serial killers and :Category:British female serial killers and :Category:Executed British women

:* Propose merging :Category:Executed Egyptian female serial killers to :Category:Executed female serial killers and :Category:Executed Egyptian serial killers and :Category:Egyptian female serial killers

:* Propose merging :Category:Executed French female serial killers to :Category:Executed female serial killers and :Category:Executed French serial killers and :Category:French female serial killers and :Category:Executed French women

:* Propose merging :Category:Executed German female serial killers to :Category:Executed female serial killers and :Category:Executed German serial killers and :Category:German female serial killers and :Category:Executed German women

:* Propose merging :Category:Executed Greek female serial killers to :Category:Executed female serial killers and :Category:Executed Greek serial killers and :Category:Greek female serial killers and :Category:Executed Greek women

:* Propose merging :Category:Executed Hungarian female serial killers to :Category:Executed female serial killers and :Category:Executed Hungarian serial killers and :Category:Hungarian female serial killers

:* Propose merging :Category:Executed Indonesian female serial killers to :Category:Executed female serial killers and :Category:Executed Indonesian serial killers and :Category:Indonesian female serial killers

:* Propose merging :Category:Executed Iranian female serial killers to :Category:Executed female serial killers and :Category:Executed Iranian serial killers and :Category:Iranian female serial killers and :Category:Executed Iranian women

:* Propose merging :Category:Executed Japanese female serial killers to :Category:Executed female serial killers and :Category:Executed Japanese serial killers and :Category:Japanese female serial killers and :Category:Executed Japanese women

:* Propose merging :Category:Executed South African female serial killers to :Category:Executed female serial killers and :Category:Executed South African serial killers and :Category:South African female serial killers and :Category:Executed South African women

:* Propose merging :Category:Executed South Korean female serial killers to :Category:Executed female serial killers and :Category:Executed South Korean serial killers and :Category:South Korean female serial killers

:* Propose merging :Category:Executed Soviet female serial killers to :Category:Executed female serial killers and :Category:Executed Soviet serial killers and :Category:Soviet female serial killers and :Category:Executed Soviet women

:Nominator's rationale: merge per WP:NARROWCAT and WP:OCEGRS, the execution of female serial killers is not a notable topic in itself. Marcocapelle (talk) 08:51, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

::Support per nom. Mason (talk) 12:44, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

::Support per nom toobigtokale (talk) 17:40, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: rename to :Category:People from the Kingdom of Prussia by province. (non-admin closure) HouseBlaster^talk 17:10, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose renaming :Category:Prussian people by province to :Category:People from the Kingdom of Prussia by province

:Nominator's rationale: rename, align with parent :Category:People from the Kingdom of Prussia and distinguish more clearly from :Category:People from Prussia proper. Marcocapelle (talk) 08:40, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

::Support for clarity. My only hesitation is that I don't want to see a proliferation of kingdom of prussian occupation categories... as some folks might view this rename as a broader endorsement the prussian kingdom categories (like occupations) is defining in all cases Mason (talk) 12:49, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

::* The intention is to disambiguate, not to create any new category. Marcocapelle (talk) 17:47, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

::*:That's what I figured. :) Mason (talk) 21:42, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: merge to :Category:People from the Duchy of Prussia. (non-admin closure) HouseBlaster^talk 17:11, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:Ducal Prussian people to :Category:People from the Duchy of Prussia

:Nominator's rationale: merge, the header states that it is for nobility, but the category only contains dukes and duchesses who are also in the target. Marcocapelle (talk) 08:33, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

::Support per nom Mason (talk) 12:27, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: merge to :Category:Grand dukes of Russia. (non-admin closure) HouseBlaster^talk 17:10, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:Grand dukes from the Russian Empire to :Category:Grand dukes of Russia

:Nominator's rationale: merge, two categories with the same scope. Based on the list article, "Grand dukes of Russia" is the more common name. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:34, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

::Support per nom Mason (talk) 12:45, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

• Merge per nom. Clearly a duplicate, and the long-standing name better reflects the actual title of these princes. Place Clichy (talk) 04:10, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: merge to :Category:Fictional slave owners. The argument in opposition was that there is technically a difference between the two categories, but that was refuted because the only article in the nominated category (Jabba the Hutt) is more appropriately placed in the merge target. (non-admin closure) HouseBlaster^talk 17:09, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:Fictional slave traders to :Category:Fictional slave owners

:Nominator's rationale: merge, only one article in the category, and for this article having slaves is more defining than trading in slaves. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:12, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

::Support per nom Mason (talk) 12:49, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

::Oppose AHI-3000 (talk) 01:41, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

• Support. Not a noticeable difference in this context. Place Clichy (talk) 04:09, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
• Comment the scope of the two categories technically are separate, since a slave trader is not necessarily the owner, as the trader could be an employee, since it is a job category. Just as a car salesman does not necessarily own or be a partner in the car lot. . -- 65.92.247.90 (talk) 04:53, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

:* Technically yes, but please read the article to verify that it is appropriate in this case. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:45, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: delete both. (non-admin closure) HouseBlaster^talk 17:06, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Fictional Scottish people by ethnic or national origin}}

:Nominator's rationale: delete as empty, there aren't any Scottish people of fooian origin in this category. There is a fooian people of Scottish origin subcategory, but that is the opposite of what the category advertises. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:01, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Fictional Welsh people by ethnic or national origin}}

:Nominator's rationale: delete as empty, there aren't any Welsh people of fooian origin in this category. There is a fooian people of Welsh origin subcategory, but that is the opposite of what the category advertises. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:03, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

• Support both per nom.Mason (talk) 12:50, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
• Delete. It is not a good idea to copy the structure of non-fiction categories to that of fictional characters. Place Clichy (talk) 04:08, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: merge/delete as nominated. (non-admin closure) HouseBlaster^talk 13:48, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:Olympic competitors for Saar to :Category:Saar sportspeople / :Category:Sportspeople from the Saar Protectorate

:* Propose merging :Category:Saar sportsmen to :Category:Saar sportspeople / :Category:Sportspeople from the Saar Protectorate

:* Propose deleting :Category:Saar sportspeople by sport

:* Propose deleting :Category:Saar footballers

:Nominator's rationale: merge/delete, redundant category layer with only one subcategory each. Note that the merge target :Category:Saar sportspeople has been nominated for renaming to :Category:Sportspeople from the Saar Protectorate. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:54, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

::support per nom Mason (talk) 12:51, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

• Merge the redundant category layers, separate categories for when Saar competed independently in the Olympics and international football at least. Place Clichy (talk) 04:23, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: merge to :Category:Saar Protectorate. (non-admin closure) HouseBlaster^talk 17:06, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:Saar culture to :Category:Saar Protectorate

:Nominator's rationale: merge, redundant category layer with only one subcategory. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:18, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

::support per nom Mason (talk) 12:51, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: rename to :Category:PwC people. (non-admin closure) HouseBlaster^talk 17:05, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose renaming :Category:PricewaterhouseCoopers people to :Category:PwC people

:Nominator's rationale: C2D. Neureinsev (talk) 05:22, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

• Support, while PWC is ambiguous I suppose that the small "w" makes it distinctive enough. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:31, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: rename to :Category:PwC. (non-admin closure) HouseBlaster^talk 17:05, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose renaming :Category:PricewaterhouseCoopers to :Category:PwC

:Nominator's rationale: C2D. Neureinsev (talk) 05:18, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

• Rename, same comment as above. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:32, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: rename as nominated. (non-admin closure) HouseBlaster^talk 17:04, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose renaming :Category:Fictional secret agents and spies to :Category:Fictional spies

:** Propose renaming :Category:Fictional characters by intelligence agency to :Category:Fictional spies by intelligence agency

:** Propose renaming :Category:Fictional secret agents and spies by medium‎ to :Category:Fictional spies by medium‎

:*** Propose renaming :Category:Fictional secret agents and spies in comics‎ to :Category:Fictional spies in comics

:*** Propose renaming :Category:Fictional secret agents and spies in films‎ to :Category:Fictional spies in films

:*** Propose renaming :Category:Fictional secret agents and spies in television‎‎ to :Category:Fictional spies in television

:*** Propose renaming :Category:Fictional secret agents and spies in video games‎ to :Category:Fictional spies in video games

:** Propose renaming :Category:Fictional secret agents and spies by nationality‎ to :Category:Fictional spies by nationality

:** Propose renaming :Category:Fictional secret agents and spies by role‎‎ to :Category:Fictional spies by role

:** Propose renaming :Category:Fictional female secret agents and spies‎ to :Category:Fictional female spies

:Nominator's rationale: "Fictional secret agents and spies" is unnecessarily long. Changing all these categories to just "Fictional spies" would also make them consistent with :Category:Spies. AHI-3000 (talk) 05:28, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

• Rename per WP:C2C, this could probably have been listed at speedy. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:35, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
• :support per nom Mason (talk) 12:51, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: merge to :Category:Imperial Russian Air Force personnel. There is clear consensus to merge these two categories; there is much weaker consensus that :Category:Imperial Russian Air Force personnel is the correct merge target. I am closing this as merge in that direction; Marcocapelle or Smasongarrison, feel free to open a fresh discussion on possibly renaming :Category:Imperial Russian Air Force personnel to :Category:Air Force personnel of the Russian Empire (or some other target). (non-admin closure) HouseBlaster^talk 00:38, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:Air Force personnel of the Russian Empire to :Category:Imperial Russian Air Force personnel

:Nominator's rationale: overlapping cat Mason (talk) 02:56, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

• Reverse merge (or merge) per nom. I am wondering if we shouldn't rename all "Imperial Russian" categories to "of the Russian Empire" as the latter is more recognizable. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:43, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
• :Comment. I'm not sure how to feel about the Imperial Russian vs russian empire. My sense is that all the russian empire categories were renamed from Imperial Russian FOO to FOO from/of the Russian empire, a while back. Mason (talk) 12:54, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: merge to :Category:Russian World War I pilots. (non-admin closure) HouseBlaster^talk 00:34, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:World War I pilots from the Russian Empire to :Category:Russian World War I pilots

:Nominator's rationale: duplicate category Mason (talk) 02:39, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

• Support, the Empire came to an end while the war was still going on, but for military personnel the regime change is not that relevant. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:48, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: keep. (non-admin closure) Mason (talk) 12:38, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:Graphic artists from the Russian Empire to :Category:Graphic designers from the Russian Empire

:Nominator's rationale: overlapping with :Category:Graphic designers from the Russian Empire Mason (talk) 02:37, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose (at least for procedural reason), there is a whole tree starting at :Category:Graphic artists. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:53, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
• :Oh! Thank you for the good catch!!! (I had assumed they were the same when I only found one Russian version of the category) Let me dig into the tree.... Mason (talk) 12:31, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
• ::Ok, so it looks like graphic artists are the parent of graphic designers. I've rearranged some of the categories for the russian empire. I'm going to close the nom. Mason (talk) 12:38, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: merge. (non-admin closure) Clyde _{[trout needed]} 02:31, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:LGBT rights in the Soviet Union by republic to :Category:LGBT rights in the Soviet Union

:Nominator's rationale: Only one page and that page is a redirect Mason (talk) 02:10, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

• Merge per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:54, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: merge. (non-admin closure) Clyde _{[trout needed]} 02:30, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:People from Panna State to :Category:People from Panna district

:Nominator's rationale: Only one person in the small category, makes it hard to navigate.Mason (talk) 02:08, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

• Merge per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:55, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: alt rename. (non-admin closure) Clyde _{[trout needed]} 02:30, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:People from the Sultanate of Deli to :Category:Sultanate of Deli

:Nominator's rationale: Only one person in this small category, makes it hard to navigate. Mason (talk) 02:07, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

• Rename to :Category:Sultans of Deli, per actual category content. There are now five articles in the category. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:01, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
• :Support alterative rename. Mason (talk) 12:39, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: merge to :Category:African diaspora in Asia. (non-admin closure) Clyde _{[trout needed]} 02:29, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose Dual Merge :Category:Mozambican diaspora in Asia to :Category:Mozambican diaspora and :Category:African diaspora in Asia

:Nominator's rationale: Dual merge, as there's only one page in this category Mason (talk) 01:53, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

• Single merge to :Category:African diaspora in Asia, the article is not specifically about Mozambique. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:11, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
• Single merge to :Category:African diaspora in Asia Place Clichy (talk) 05:10, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: alt rename. (non-admin closure) Clyde _{[trout needed]} 02:25, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:Saar people to :Category:People from Saarland

:Nominator's rationale: I think this category should either be merged into People from Saarland; or if kept, should be renamed People from the Saar Protectorate. It was a disputed protectorate for about 10 years (1947 to 1957), before rejoining West German Mason (talk) 00:54, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

• Rename to :Category:People from the Saar Protectorate as less ambiguous. The two subcategories really refer to the protectorate so deletion is not a proper option. The subcategories should be renamed too. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:15, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose renaming :Category:Saar politicians to :Category:Politicians from the Saar Protectorate

:* Propose renaming :Category:Political parties in Saar to :Category:Political parties in the Saar Protectorate

:* Propose renaming :Category:Saar sportspeople to :Category:Sportspeople from the Saar Protectorate

:* Propose renaming :Category:Saar men's footballers‎ to :Category:Men's footballers‎ from the Saar Protectorate

:* Propose renaming :Category:Summer Olympics competitors for Saar to :Category:Summer Olympics competitors for the Saar Protectorate

:* Propose renaming :Category:Olympic athletes for Saar to :Category:Olympic athletes for the Saar Protectorate

:* Propose renaming :Category:Olympic boxers for Saar to :Category:Olympic boxers for the Saar Protectorate

:* Propose renaming :Category:Olympic canoeists for Saar to :Category:Olympic canoeists for the Saar Protectorate

:* Propose renaming :Category:Olympic fencers for Saar to :Category:Olympic fencers for the Saar Protectorate

:* Propose renaming :Category:Olympic gymnasts for Saar to :Category:Olympic gymnasts for the Saar Protectorate

:* Propose renaming :Category:Olympic rowers for Saar to :Category:Olympic rowers for the Saar Protectorate

:* Propose renaming :Category:Olympic shooters for Saar to :Category:Olympic shooters for the Saar Protectorate

:* Propose renaming :Category:Olympic swimmers for Saar to :Category:Olympic swimmers for the Saar Protectorate

:* Propose renaming :Category:Olympic wrestlers for Saar to :Category:Olympic wrestlers for the Saar Protectorate

:I'd support this alt proposalMason (talk) 12:32, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

• Support alt renaming. Note that there was also a Territory of the Saar Basin that was independent (as a League of Nations mandate) from 1920 to 1935. I'm not sure what they did in terms of international sports, though. Also, the post-1957 German state is always called Saarland, not Saar, but that's not obvious enough to disambiguate. Place Clichy (talk) 04:36, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

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