. signed, Rosguill talk 18:47, 27 March 2020 (UTC)
- {{no redirect|1 = Irma Gonzalez }} → :Irma Elsa Gonzalez (talk · links · [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Irma_Gonzalez&action=history history] · [https://tools.wmflabs.org/pageviews?start=2020-02-04&end=2020-03-04&project=en.wikipedia.org&pages=Irma_Gonzalez stats]) [ Closure: {{#ifeq:{{FULLPAGENAME}}|Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion|(@subpage)|[{{fullurl:Irma Gonzalez|action=edit&summary={{Urlencode:{{FULLPAGENAME}}#Irma Gonzalez closed as keep}}}} keep]/[{{fullurl:Irma Gonzalez|action=edit&summary={{Urlencode:{{FULLPAGENAME}}#Irma Gonzalez closed as retarget}}}} retarget]/[{{fullurl:Irma Gonzalez|action=delete&wpReason={{Urlencode:{{FULLPAGENAME}}#Irma Gonzalez closed as delete}}&wpMovetalk=1}} delete]}} ]
- {{no redirect|1 = Irma González }} → :Irma González (wrestler) (talk · links · [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Irma_Gonz%C3%A1lez&action=history history] · [https://tools.wmflabs.org/pageviews?start=2020-02-04&end=2020-03-04&project=en.wikipedia.org&pages=Irma_Gonz%C3%A1lez stats]) [ Closure: {{#ifeq:{{FULLPAGENAME}}|Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion|(@subpage)|[{{fullurl:Irma González|action=edit&summary={{Urlencode:{{FULLPAGENAME}}#Irma González closed as keep}}}} keep]/[{{fullurl:Irma González|action=edit&summary={{Urlencode:{{FULLPAGENAME}}#Irma González closed as retarget}}}} retarget]/[{{fullurl:Irma González|action=delete&wpReason={{Urlencode:{{FULLPAGENAME}}#Irma González closed as delete}}&wpMovetalk=1}} delete]}} ]
- {{no redirect|1 = Irma Gonzales }} → :Irma González (wrestler) (talk · links · [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Irma_Gonzales&action=history history] · [https://tools.wmflabs.org/pageviews?start=2020-02-04&end=2020-03-04&project=en.wikipedia.org&pages=Irma_Gonzales stats]) [ Closure: {{#ifeq:{{FULLPAGENAME}}|Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion|(@subpage)|[{{fullurl:Irma Gonzales|action=edit&summary={{Urlencode:{{FULLPAGENAME}}#Irma Gonzales closed as keep}}}} keep]/[{{fullurl:Irma Gonzales|action=edit&summary={{Urlencode:{{FULLPAGENAME}}#Irma Gonzales closed as retarget}}}} retarget]/[{{fullurl:Irma Gonzales|action=delete&wpReason={{Urlencode:{{FULLPAGENAME}}#Irma Gonzales closed as delete}}&wpMovetalk=1}} delete]}} ]
I cannot discern a primary topic from the either the wrestler or the judge. They both get similar pageviews, but the page with less views is a GAN. Disambiguation could is possible, but there are still only two entries, so it will have to be clear that there is no primary topic. I don't intend for there to be a large discussion here, as long as there is consensus on where these redirects should target. However, there is no reason for some of these to target one article while the others target another. Utopes (talk / cont) 04:11, 5 March 2020 (UTC)
- Disambiguate page at Irma Gonzalez as nom. The spellings are near identical that I don't see a reason to split the targets of these redirects in question. Utopes (talk / cont) 04:17, 5 March 2020 (UTC)
- Disambiguate per nom. J947 (c), at 04:22, 5 March 2020 (UTC)
- Comment: Irma Elsa Gonzalez seems to not have the "á" in her name? or maybe I'm just not looking at this right?? ALso Irma Gonzales is an alternate spelling for the wrestler, is it also used in sources for Irma Elsa Gonzalez? I genuinely do not know. couldn't this be solved with a hat note one each of them? MPJ-DK (talk) 04:39, 5 March 2020 (UTC)
::The wrestler is Méxican. In Spanish, it's written González. However, the judge is from United States, in English, people don't use accents like in Spanish, even if it's a Spanish last name, Like Colby Lopez or Pamela Martinez. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 10:19, 5 March 2020 (UTC)
- Comment. The WP:COMMONNAME for the judge seems to be either "Irma Gonzalez" or (Hon.) "Irma E. Gonzalez": my gsearch for her full name yields mainly mirrors/inclusions from Wikipedia. So I am not sure using her middle name as a disambiguator is a good idea, per WP:MIDDLENAME. If there's no primary topic then a DAB page is required per WP:NOPRIMARY, even if it has only two entries. 85.238.91.68 (talk) 07:59, 5 March 2020 (UTC)
- Reverse the redirects and hatnote, so that the retired judge is at Irma Gonzalez and the wrestler at Irma González per WP:SMALLDETAILS. 85.238.91.68 (talk) 08:09, 5 March 2020 (UTC)
- Disambiguate at Irma Gonzalez; retarget {{-r|Irma González}} there as {{tl|R from diacritics}} {{tl|R from ambiguous term}}; and retarget {{-r|Irma Gonzales}} there as {{tl|R from misspelling}}. There is too much emphasis on trying to force
WP:TOPICs WP:PTOPICs Narky Blert (talk) 22:29, 5 March 2020 (UTC) in WP:TWODABS cases when there isn't one. SMALLDETAILS based on a character most people don't have on their keyboards is a terrible idea; in this instance, I could well imagine bluelinks intended to relate to the judge being WP:EASTEREGGs to the wrestler. Narky Blert (talk) 10:36, 5 March 2020 (UTC)
::It's the job of the editor to check links per WP:TESTLINK. I've already checked the links and none goes to the wrong article.
::Irma González is not ambiguous. The judge is never referred to that way. We use this approach all the time, e.g. Gúa vs Gua vs Guà; canape vs. canapé; borek vs börek. There's no reason to redirect that to a DAB page.
::SMALLDETAILS actually says " The general approach is that whatever readers might type in the search box, they are guided as swiftly as possible to the topic they might reasonably be expected to be looking for, by such disambiguation techniques as hatnotes and/or disambiguation pages..." (my emphasis). There aren't currently hatnotes because there's no ambiguity in the article titles, only the redirect "Irma Gonzalez". 85.238.91.68 (talk) 00:43, 6 March 2020 (UTC)
:::"It's the job of the editor to check links per WP:TESTLINK." A counsel of perfection; but, many editors simply do not do so. That's why there's currently a backlog of 10,611 known bad links in WP:TDD (in June 2010, there were 961,936{{sic}}). That's why I and other editors have to my knowledge fixed 100+ bad incoming links to each of multiple WP:PTOPICs. That's why another editor and I about a year ago ran a project to fix a subset of bad links to surname pages: we found and fixed about 1,500; it took us a fortnight. Narky Blert (talk) 01:02, 6 March 2020 (UTC)
::::I appreciate that, but there's all kinds of ways editors can make bad links and surprises. We're still expected to follow policy and guidelines that have consensus.
::::When it comes to titles that vary only by diacritical marks, the consensus seems to be that those marks are enough to disambiguate. So, while it may be the case that "Irma Gonzalez" is ambiguous, it is not the case that "Irma González" is ambiguous. Were it so, then Gúa and Guà (to repeat the example I gave earlier) would be ambiguous and should target the disambiguation page at Gua.
::::Now, if we hatnote, some readers get the right article first time and the others are one click away. If we disambiguate and redirect both Gonzalez and González there, no readers get any article the first time and all readers are one click away. We've made the reader experience worse for all readers, and better for none. These are not big articles, so bandwidth is not an issue. It's just a better reader experience to hatnote them rather than disambiguate. We shouldn't visit editors' past sins onto readers. We've also potentially broken external links. Simply reversing the redirects and hatnoting avoids all of that.
::::The basic question is: does the misspelling of "Irma González" (without the diacritical mark) count towards WP:NOPRIMARY? 85.238.91.68 (talk) 04:57, 6 March 2020 (UTC)
- Comment. I've added a {{tlx|redirect}} hatnote to Irma Elsa Gonzalez, without prejudice. 85.238.91.68 (talk) 00:21, 6 March 2020 (UTC)
- Disambiguate. I'm of the opinion that we should disambiguate at the base title by default whenever there is significant disagreement about the primary topic. Deryck C. 00:44, 15 March 2020 (UTC)
- Disambiguate per Deryck Chan. This will establish a baseline which will make it much easier to gauge primary topic in the future. I strongly reject the SMALLDETAILS argument and the obviously false argument that foreign-language diacritics are never used in English. I have a coworker who uses one in a Spanish name, and he's a native-born American with no accent. --BDD (talk) 20:09, 16 March 2020 (UTC)
- Keep, Reverse, and Retarget, respectively. The accentless redirects should target the judge and the wrestler's page should be titled "Irma González". Personally, I find the WP:SMALLDETAIL a naturally elegant way to disambiguate. Anyone looking for the other topic will be presented with a hatnote, but ~most will find the topic they want right away without having to fumble through a disambiguation. -- Tavix (talk) 18:19, 17 March 2020 (UTC)
{{resize|91%|Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.}}
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Steel1943 (talk) 18:26, 18 March 2020 (UTC)
:The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.
