Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/January 2006

what are the latin words for shit,sex,gay and how do you spell liberty backwards and just in case you are wondering i am not doing my homework.

:Sky = caelum in Latin, power = potestas, fire = ignis. Liberty spelled backwards is Ytrebil, or did you mean in Latin? --Angr (t·c) 17:34, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

Latin ignis is agni in Sanskrit, and though the learned writer Angr has nothing to with anger (as he maintains in his profile), the root of anger is Old Norse angr. Anger also means inflame, so we have some fire, too! Vsjayaschandran 21:10, 2 January 2006.

:Can I ask what is Sanksrit for soap?I was amazed that in Hindi it is Sabun, similar to Philippine-Spanish Sabon(Spanish jabon). Others

said to be similar brother-frater-brata(Greek -phrater), six-sex-sas, god-deo-deva, snake or serpent-serpe?-sarpa, great -gna-maha , king or royal-rege-raja etc. Amazing!--Jondel 14:07, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

::A couple sources I have give the origin for Hindi's साबुन (sābun) as coming from Arabic. Platt's dictionary is one and has some abbreviations that I can't find an explanation for that may indicate an earlier source. See [http://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philologic/search3t?dbname=platts&query=sabun&display=utf8 here]. So that may indicate a common origin for the words or just that Hindi got the word through Arabic. It's not hard to believe the Spanish word came through Arabic too. I don't know about the Sanskrit. - Taxman ^Talk 19:25, 7 January 2006 (UTC

)

=January 2=

Not sure if this is a language or geography question. Places like Argentina, Lebanon and Ukraine have in the past been referred to as "The Argentine", "The Lebanon", and "The Ukraine". Why? JackofOz 09:02, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

:In the Philippines' case, it was usually called las islas Filipinas or the Philippine islands. Eventually it became the Philippines or las Filipinas. Though in Spanish, it seems, people usually omit the definite article and simply say Filipinas. --Chris S. 22:35, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

:The names must mean something -- in whatever language they originate -- that requires a the, as do The United States of America, The Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, and The People's Republic of China. Sorry, that's just speculation. Mitchell k dwyer 09:21, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

::My own guess is that these were originally the names of regions rather than states, since they were all part of empires ("The Sudan", also). That would explain why the people there get shirty if you include the "the". Mark¹ 11:15, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

::: It's a decent guess, but doesn't cover every case. There's of course the Hauge, located in the Netherlands. Most of the time, I think it's due to an ommited part. "The (Kingdom of the) Netherlands", "The Argentine (river)", "The Congo (river)". Or even: "The (Republic of the) Gambia (river)". The 'regions' theory doesn't really explain much though. Why "The Ukraine" but not "The Belarus" (or any other former part of the USSR/Russian Empire)? --BluePlatypus 13:30, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

::::Certainly there are some that mean things- The Hague means the hedge or enclosure. The Netherlands is a group of lands. Belarus? It means "White Russia", so doesn't get a "the" any more than Russia itself (why the Tzars were Tzars of "all the Russias" is an interesting complication). I'm not saying that all regions get an article- Appalachia, etc, don't- but "the Ukraine" could be short for "the Ukraine region". Name_of_Ukraine#Ukraine_or_the_Ukraine.3F supports my regions theory. And for even more detail, see [http://www.infoukes.com/faq/the_ukraine/]. Mark¹ 14:07, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

"Lebanon" comes from "the Levant", the traditional name for the region. "Ukraine" comes from the Russian word meaning "border", so calling it "the border" makes sense. (There is also a region in Croatia called "Krajina" for the same reason, from the Serbo-Croat word for border.) The Spanish name of the South American country in question is "La Republica Argentina", which is best translated as "the Argentine Republic", i.e., "Argentina" is an adjective in this instance, not a noun. "The Argentine" may be a shortening of "the Argentine Republic". The desert lying to the south of the Sahara desert is the Sudan desert, so "the Sudan" may come from the name of the desert, in the same way that Yukon Territory in Canada has, more so in the past, been called "the Yukon". The Republic of Mali was once called the "French Sudan". Ground Zero | t 16:14, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

:The irony is that Slavic languages like Ukranian don't even have a word like "the." Nonetheless, when the country became independent, they figured the word "the" made it seem like a region rather than a proper country. As far as Argentina goes, it is called "la Argentina" in Spanish. Several countries have "el" or "la" as part of their Spanish names. -- Mwalcoff 19:04, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

::If I'm not mistaken, all countries take a definite article in Spanish: La Canadá, el Ingliterra, etc. Ground Zero | t 21:45, 2 January 2006 (UTC)]

:::Actually, I think only a handful of countries, states, and cities take the definite article in Spanish like: el Canadá, el Uruguay, la Habana, la India, la Florida, etc. But some do not, like Inglaterra, España, México. --Chris S. 22:35, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

WOW!! Thanks, folks. JackofOz 22:07, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Did pirates actually talk like pirates, or do we have Hollywood to thank? Mark¹ 11:10, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

: Well, I'm no expert on the subject (although I do own a nautical dictionary). But obviously the stereotypical Hollywood pirate is just that: A stereotype. So like all stereotypes it's exaggerated, simplified and distorted, but that doesn't mean there isn't some resemblence to reality in it. Most 'pirate' words are more general maritime slang. Most pirates (in the Caribbean) probably also used more Creole words than movie pirates, but I doubt their language was significantly different from that of contemporary Caribbean sailors. --BluePlatypus 13:09, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

::International Talk Like a Pirate Day has some additional information about the sources of some pirate phrases. GeeJo _{(t) (c)} • 20:23, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

:::Also note that many languages were spoken by pirates, not just English. StuRat 22:54, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

I thought that the meaning of the word individual, in the past,

(maybe in the first half of the 20th century) included a

derogatory connotation . For example to say that "an individual

read the letter" had a derogatory connotation with respect to

the person referenced. Was this form of usage in existence

at one time?

:The only derogatory use of the word individual (in this case, spelled more properly as induhvidual) that I know of was created by Scott Adams (cartoonist of Dilbert) a few years ago to refer to morons behind their backs. 70.243.46.200 16:55, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

: I don't think the word "individual" was in itself considered particularily derogatory. It's more a question of etiquette: It's rude to speak badly about someone, or to be openly confrontational. So it is/was considered more polite to not single out the person directly but rather to speak of an "individual", reducing the accusation to a mere insinuation. So by association, referring to someone in an indirect manner could itself be damning. But the tone of voice is critical here to distinguish between "an individual read the letter" as in "someone read the letter" and as in "someone-you-know-who read the letter when he shouldn't have". Which is why I don't think you can say "individual" was derogatory in itself. Adding the word 'certain' as in "a certain individual" makes it clearer that it's the insinuative meaning though. --BluePlatypus 23:10, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

::I think this what the original poster is thinking of: if you are snobbish about social classes, and you see a man whose name you don't know but you can tell he's a gentleman, then you naturally describe him as "a gentleman". Therefore if you use some other word, such as "individual" or "person", it implies that he is not a gentleman and therefore considered unworthy. (I've only come across this sort of thing in period fiction, typically set in England.) --Anonymous, 04:11 UTC, January 3, 2006.

I don't think this applies to your usage of the word, but doing something independently could be considered inappropriate in cases where collective agreement is normally required. For example, if one member of a club decided "individually" how to spend the club dues, without the consent of other club members, this might be considered unacceptable behaviour. StuRat 22:51, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

how do you say in french "she has vascular dementia"

: Elle a démence vasculaire --BluePlatypus 12:50, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

::Je dirais plutôt : « Elle est atteinte de démence vasculaire » — qui en plus d'être une phrase sûrement correcte, est bien plus élégante que la précédente tournure. Grumpy Troll ^(talk) 13:00, 2 January 2006 (UTC).

::: As usual my school french is trumped by a native speaker :) But am I correct in thinking that's a bit closer to "She is suffering from.."? (which would be the better way to say it in english too.) --BluePlatypus 13:42, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

::::You are indeed correct in that aspect. Grumpy Troll ^(talk) 13:50, 2 January 2006 (UTC).

:::::"Elle est atteinte de démence vasculaire" is more idiomatic (more what they would say in France or other French-speaking countries). By the way, for those who don't speak French, GrumpyTroll said "Rather, I would say "She is suffering from vascular dementia" - which, as well as being a sentence that is certainly correct, is much more elegant that the above turn of phrase." — 193.203.81.129 14:15, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

what is the french for "power of attorney"?

What is the english translation of "Mettre ( quelqu'un ) sous tutelle"?

: Procuration (also means "proxy"). "To put (someone) under supervision --BluePlatypus 12:53, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

::One may also come across the expression mettre les allocations familiales sous tutelle, which means to entrust the control of child benefit (allocations familiales) to a third party when "the children are raised in obviously defective conditions of nutrition, housing and hygiene and that the child benefit is not used in the interest of the children." That is, when a family receives money to raise the children and that the said money is not being used to this end, a judge appoints someone as to be sure that the money is spent in the interest of the children. Grumpy Troll ^(talk) 13:15, 2 January 2006 (UTC).

What is the origin and meaning of the place name Tyas?

:Where is it? I couldn't find a place called Tyas anywhere; did you spell it wrong? Did you mean any of these places?:

• Tyaskin, Maryland, United States
• Tyaskin Estates, Maryland, United States
• Tyasanakaha, Ivory Coast
• Tyasedougou, Ivory Coast
• Tyasminovka, Ukraine
• Tyaso, Ivory Coast
• Tyassi, Estonia
• Tyassono, Cameroon
• Tyasty, Byelarus
• Tyasédougou, Ivory Coast

If you mean it as a name, [http://www.thenortheast.fsnet.co.uk/Place%20Name%20Meanings%20K%20to%20O.htm this site] said :

::"Middleton Tyas (Yorkshire): The first part of the name is Anglo-Saxon and means middle farm. Tyas is a Norman French name but there is no evidence that the place once belonged to the family of that name."

Sorry I couldn't be of more help... Sputnikcccp 21:05, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

=January 3=

A user has been going around changing "are" to "is" in many articles whose subject is a plural name (sports teams and bands). For example, they changed "The White Stripes are" to "The White Stripes is", "The New York Yankees are" to "The New York Yankees is", etc. Obviously this is awkward, but the user claims that this usage is correct in American English. Any English experts want to weigh in? It can't be correct to write that "The Beatles was on the Ed Sullivan Show", can it? Rhobite 02:53, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

:I can't claim to be an English expert, but the rule is simple and well-known: If more than one person is acting as a group, the verb is singular. Otherwise, it's plural. [http://owl.english.purdue.edu/handouts/esl/eslsubverb.html] That sounds awkward to most people, so phrases like "The White Stripes are" are very common. Given that, I don't think it much matters: Usage determines what's correct. --George 03:05, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

::I am no expert on American English. Canadian English, however, is quite similar. "The White Stripes is" is without question incorrect in my mind. The difference in usage between the UK and the US and Canada when it comes to subject/verb agreement is with respect to singluar collective nouns: "The BBC are chnaging their schedule", but "The CBC is changing its schedule." Ground Zero | t 03:37, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

:::Here is a quote from The Bedford Handbook on page 270. "In American English, collective nouns are nearly always treated as singular: They emphasize the group as a unit." The name of a band is a collection of one unit. RJN 03:47, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

::::That is a tricky one, given that in the examples you mention, although the name is referring to a singular group, the noun itself is a plural. I think the rule you need to apply here is: can you refer to a single member of said group/team using a singular version of the group name? For example: "John Lennon was a Beatle", "Meg White is a White Stripe", "Keith Richards is a Rolling Stone"? If so, then I think "The Beatles are..." and "The White Stripes are..." is correct. However, you could not do that for a singular noun, such as "Noel Gallagher is an Oasis", in which case you would say "Oasis is...". Where it falls down is where a (seemingly) plural noun is not necessarily referring to the band members, usually where the article "The" is omitted by the band, e.g. "Pixies" (the Wikipedia article does actually start "Pixies are an alternative rock music group...", but I would say "Pixies is..."). One can probably just bypass this whole arguement, however, but just rephrasing some of the sentences if it sounds wrong: "The Beatles appeared on the Ed Sullivan Show." --Canley 03:52, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

:The rule in American English is that a plural noun, like Beatles, gets a plural verb, but a collective singular noun, like the band Queen, gets a singular verb. In British English, both types of nouns get a plural verb. My guess is the user is a British person trying to write in American English and overgeneralizing with the rule. -- Mwalcoff 04:05, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

::"The Beatles" is still one unit/entity is it not? I have already asked several English majors at my school and 2 English professors and they confirmed that "The Beatles is," "New York Yankees is" are correct. "The Beatles" is a collective entity. For example, you can replace "The Beatles" with "the band" <---singular --RJN 04:32, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

:::RJN, do you remember how I wrote on your talk page, "This is not worth edit-warring over and my advice is to leave things as they are"? Even if it were true that "The Beatles is" is correct in American English (which I doubt), it's considered poor Wikiquette to edit articles on non-country-specific topics only to switch from BrE to AmE or vice versa. --Angr (t·c) 05:53, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

::::...Particularly for a British band. I think one should also look at how the actual group/band/team refers to itself/themselves, which should probably be the definitive ruling in most cases, overriding any grammatical arguments. In the case of The Beatles, their official site [http://www.thebeatles.com http://www.thebeatles.com] uses "The Beatles were..." (plural noun), not "The Beatles was..." (singular group noun). --Canley 05:59, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

:::::Just checked, the White Stripes and the New York Yankees also refer to themselves using plural verbs: "are" not "is". --Canley 06:07, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Here is a sentence from MCA Records that would support the use of "is". "New Radicals, led by young liability/singer/songwriter/producer Gregg Alexander, is chomping at the bit." Hope this helps. http://www.mcarecords.com/ArtistAbout.asp?which=bio&selected=1&aboutid=38819&artistname=New+Radicals&artistid=62 RJN 06:12, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

:Another sentence from Nine Inch Nails article and was never edited by me. "Nine Inch Nails (abbreviated as NIN and typeset as NIИ) is a critically and commercially successful American band formed in Cleveland, Ohio in 1988 by Trent Reznor." RJN 06:19, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

::There are articles about bands and sports teams that use "is" and "was" before I even start editing. I am not the only one that is using it correctly. As I said many times before, I emailed my former English professor and she confirmed that the usage is correct. I even asked several other English majors that I know from my school. RJN 06:23, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

::: English is not a language prescribed from above. It's entirely likely that both are in common use and both must be considered correct from a descriptionist point of view. --Prosfilaes 07:36, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

:::Strictly speaking though, Nine Inch Nails (as a recording entity) is pretty much one person: Trent Reznor, so it quite likely should be "Nine Inch Nails is...". Your New Radicals example is neutralised on the main headline on the band's official homepage: "New Radicals Disband" - shouldn't this be "New Radicals Disbands"? The "is" also "sounds" right because it is after the singular Gregg Alexander. Angr is right, we're not going to reach a consensus on this for cultural as well as other reasons, so they should be left as they are with what sounds right, despite what your English professor says. Here's a link to similar debates on [http://ask.metafilter.com/mefi/22457 Ask MetaFilter] (no consensus), [http://www.wordcourt.com/archives.php?show=2005-09-28 Word Court] (bands are a special case), and a cache of [http://grammar.ccc.commnet.edu/grammar/plurals.htm this site] on plural noun forms says that the plural form of band names should be shown as plurals. --Canley 08:19, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

I think one area where the whole issue gets dodgy is when you try to consider a group as simply a plural of nouns; as in, people think of The Beatles as four Beatles who played music together. That makes sense, kind of, because you can refer to Paul McCartney as, at least, a former Beatle. So, when you get a group of them together, they're just four Beatles. Of course it would take a plural.

The same kind of example holds for The New York Yankees, and doesn't so much hold for the New Radicals or Nine Inch Nails. You could refer to a Yankee pretty easily, but there aren't actually a group of guys described as a "New Radical" or a "Nine Inch Nail," as Canley points out above. However, with the White Stripes example, I think my rule breaks down, because I don't think of Jack or Meg as a stripe, you know? --ParkerHiggins ( talk contribs ) 09:47, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

It took a long time for me to not want to injure myself every time I saw a collective noun being followed by a plural pronoun, but I am gradually learning to accept that we speak English differently in different parts of the world. I agree that it's not worth edit-warring over; however, there are just too many articles that clearly use the pronouns thoughtlessly. If someone deliberately says "the committee gave it their approval," I can gracefully move on, but later in the same article, the same noun gets the singular pronoun, so that it's obvious someone isn't trying very hard. In situations like this, I try to edit for consistency, and so far there haven't been too many reverts. So I'm writing all this just to make a plea: Whatever your preference, please be consistent! Mitchell k dwyer 11:39, 3 January 2006 (UTC) 11:38, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

:I agree; consistency is foremost. BTW, if I were to come across "the committee gave it their approval," I'd probably change it to "the committee approved it," avoiding the problem altogether. —Wayward ^Talk 12:22, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

::Thought I'd join this conversation as I already talked about this to quite some length with RJN on our user talk pages. According to Singular and plural for nouns:

:::"Proper nouns which are plural in form take a plural verb in both American and British English. Examples:

:::* British English: "The Clash are a well-known band." American English: "The Clash is a well-known band." Both: "The Beatles are a well-known band."

::Also, regarding the New Radicals, I found a press release by the band that reads "The New Radicals are disbanding", albeit under the heading "New Radicals dissloves" Here it's used as a singular without the "the", and as plural with it, and both versions seem fine to me (although I prefer the plural). The version RJN uses ("The New Radicals was") still seems wrong to me. --Fritz Saalfeld (Talk) 20:30, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

:::If I was writing it, I would just go with whatever I was comfortable with, but since there's disagreement, I figure I should mention something we recently learned in English class. A collective noun can be either singular or plural depending on how it's used. If the action is performed by all individuals individually, the noun is plural (the committee drive their own cars), and if the action is performed by the group collectively, the noun is singular (the committee meets in room 102). "Bare Naked Ladies was on the Ed Sullivan Show" would then be correct (though inaccurate). There are two other things to point out, though: plurals and alternate structures, both of which are buried in the small mountain of text above.

:::*Plurals: There were four Beatles. John Lennon was a Beatle. 'The Beatles', though it may or may not have been that way originally, is not collective, it's plural. As such, the rules for collective nouns are irrelevant to it, and more familiar rules take over. Similarly, the Young Republicans are an organization, but the noun is not a collective, because each member is actually a Young Republican. The same could be said of some sports teams, but not all.

:::*Alternate structures: It's clunky to extend the rules of collective nouns to, for instance, Oasis. To say "Oasis was on the Ed Sullivan Show" is fine by everyone. To say "Oasis were having creative differences", though it seems to satisfy the rules, is as uncomfortable to read as "He or she should give himself or herself a shot into his or her vein." Both correct, neither used, ever. People have better ways to put the same things. In the case of an inconvenient collective, people seem to usually hide it in a prepositional phrase where it can't do any damage. The best way to say it, then, would be, "The drummer and the lead singer of Oasis had a falling out." Or, as was suggested above, switch to a verb that, in that tense, does not differentiate between singular and plural.

:::BTW, I would use the bands' own preferences as, at best, a tie-breaker, not least because, as Canley mentioned, they may not be consistent with it themselves. And, in case the rules are region-specific, I'm from the USA, from the South, from Texas, from a bit north of Houston. As far as I know, the rules we learn are national. Black Carrot 23:01, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

::::LOL - "Oasis was on the Ed Sullivan Show" is not fine by me! This is one of the British/US differences that really grates. For me (British), when an American soccer fan on a messageboard writes something like "Liverpool has won" I really want to strangle him. I imagine it sounds just as odd the other way round. "The bank have written to say....", etc, probably sounds terrible to US ears. Jameswilson 03:33, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

:::::Ouch! Ouch! You're hurting me! Somebody please make him stop! :( Mitchell k dwyer 04:43, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

The Yankees are are doing well this year. The team is doing well this year. Same entity, but different verb depending on which noun you are using to refer to them in US English. --Nelson Ricardo 07:42, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

While English is my first foreign language, and not my native one, I learned it this way: If the noun in question refers to more than one person (the police, the Yankees, ...), use plural. —Nightstallion (?) 08:08, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

:I had to teach a writing class to nonnative English speakers a year or so ago and collective nouns (hmmm, wait, wikipedia's defn of collective noun isn't the same...things like "committee", "group", "deck of cards", "The Clash"--a noun referring to multiple implied members) was one of the questions that came up. I have access to a rather extensive library of (American English) style guides and I spent hours researching the topic. Some style guides were very explicit in what to do but most agreed in a general sense: The answer is most often: "Context determines singular or plural", or what the collective noun is/are doing, and, then, if context doesn't help, how it sounds, which makes it subjective. An example of the former: "The Beatles put on their coats" ("the Beatles put on its coat" would just be silly), but "the Beatles is a famous band" ("the Beatles ARE a famous band" also sounds odd--if it were *are*, it would be "the Beatles are famous bands"??). An example of the latter--well, that's where we are, with plural-sounding collective nouns sounding better to many ears when treated as truly plural nouns when context doesn't clearly indicate one or the other. If I were writing on the subjects, I'd consider that "The Beatles" and "the Yankees" in most case be treated as plurals unless context clearly dictates otherwise, because you CAN have one Beatle or one Yankee, whereas "the Clash" is singular in such situations because there isn't "a Clash" representing an individual member. However, you can find style guides to justify whatever way you want to do it. It's going to be impossible for anyone to justify changing everything his/her way, so my pathetic recommendation would be to leave them as is.Elf | Talk 20:25, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

where can i find different topics for group discussion ?

:Find an article about the topic you want to discuss, and then click on the "discussion" tab. Wikipedia is not really a discussion forum though, as far as I know the discussion pages are generally to reach consensus on editing articles rather than expressing a viewpoint. --Canley 08:22, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

::Try watching the news, that can bring up some interesting items to discuss. StuRat 22:45, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

If there were to be, say, a ball that were jointly owned by my sister and myself, what possessive pronouns would I use to describe it? As in, is it "My sister's and my ball"? And if i were to reduce her to a pronoun, would it be "her and my ball", or "hers and my ball"? Nothing sounds right. Thanks! --ParkerHiggins ( talk contribs ) 09:50, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

:I believe the prescriptive form is "my sister's and my ball", pronominalized to "her and my ball". I remember my father ranting once about someone who had thanked him for coming to "Katie and I's wedding" instead of "Katie's and my wedding". If both possessors are nouns (including names), though, then you use only one 's: "Katie and John's wedding". --Angr (t·c) 10:28, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

::I would think though that if reducing "my sister" to "her" then perhaps it would be better to instead reduce "my sister and my" to "our". It might be better, however, to rephrase the statement so that it is instead, "the ball that my sister and I own". Theshibboleth 12:05, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

::*Let's face it, it's just awkward for prescriptive grammarians to answer. Prescription and description provides a good account of prescription, "the laying down or prescribing of normative rules for a language," but the living language will just burst the bonds of all the rules. The article Grammar offers more discussion.

::*Probably the best way to handle the situation is to find some way to rephrase it. This depends on context. For example, "The boy stole the ball my sister and I had bought." But the best solution is to stick with "our." Halcatalyst 19:04, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

::Yes, the prescriptivist rule is that both nouns or pronouns should be in the possessive form ("my sister's and my"), but it the possessive of the whole phrase is much more commonly seen and heard, whether or not this is grammatically correct or not ("my sister and my"). This is commonly seen with pairs of proper nouns: "Jack and Jill's wedding" (rather than "Jack's and Jill's wedding"). Strictly, this refers to two entities: someone called Jack, and the wedding of someone called Jill, but no one would interpret it that way. Language is about understanding, so, while, "Jack and Jill's wedding" breaks the rule, the intended meaning is perfectly well understood.

::Other rewritings of "My sister's and my ball" are "My sister's ball and mine" and "Mine and my sister's ball", although these could both possibly be misinterpreted as referring to two balls, one belonging to me and one to my sister. As others have said, the ideal solution is a rewording that doesn't sound pedantic or unnatural but is still grammatically correct and unambiguous. — 193.203.81.129 14:23, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

:::I believe the rule is when one of the possessors in a compound possessive is a personal pronoun, both possessors must be in the possessive form. Therefore, "Jack and Jill's wedding" would be correct for one wedding in which Jack and Jill are wed. "Jack's and Jill's weddings" refers to two separate weddings. A better example may be "London's and New York's underground systems." —Wayward ^Talk 07:14, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

:::I don't think "Jack and Jill's wedding" strictly refers to Jill's wedding and Jack. I think the thought process used when someone writes "Jack and Jill's wedding" groups "Jack and Jill" as one (compound) object and then applies a possessive "'s" to it. It's a good analogy with a phrase like "the couple's wedding." I haven't studied descriptive English syntax, so I don't know how it's dealt with, but the situation where you have some sort of modifier (possessive, adjective, adverb) and a compound object can always lead to ambiguity (e.g. "cute puppies and kittens", "jogged and biked daily", etc.). ^L_Wizard @ 05:38, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

:See also: Translation of the Week

Can people please give me as many translations of these words as possible. Thanks, Gerard Foley 14:40, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

:The words in question are happy, feeling, and suppose. I think it's better to ask people to go directly there and add their translations, rather than having people add them here, otherwise this section will shortly become huge. --Angr (t·c) 14:57, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

=January 4=

Is there a reference with the pronunciations of last names? I am specifically interested in those of musicians, such as Neal Peart, Mike Portnoy, and Pete Townshend. thejabberwock 01:46, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

:Radio stations often issue pronunciation guides (so all their announcers use the same pronunciation. One of these is the Voice of America pronunciation guide at [http://names.voa.gov/]. - Nunh-huh 01:53, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

I don't know if there is any actual reference available, but I can definitely say that 'Peart' is pronounced 'pee-rt' and 'Townshend' is pronounced exactly like the more familiar name 'Townsend' (with the 's' like a 'z'). I can't help you with Portnoy, sorry. Givnan 06:08, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

:As far as this British contributor is aware Portnoy is pronounced to rhyme with "sport-noise", but cutting yourself off before you get to the S in noise. I'm not familiar with the musician, but there's a book or film (both?) with the name Portnoy's Complaint, and that's the pronunciation I've heard from that. --bodnotbod 23:35, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

What caused the dropping out of the grammatical cases in most Indo-European languages?

:*Strangely, the more "primitive" languages tend to be more complex than modern ones. Or so I read the other day. Perhaps someone here can confirm or disconfirm. Halcatalyst 23:38, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

::This is an oft-repeated statement, but it's not particularly true. With regards to Indo-European languages, it is, assuming we're talking about morphological complexity (i.e., inflections, declensions, etc.) rather than syntactical complexity (i.e., word order, etc.). All languages are generally about as "complex" as any other language ("complexity," of course, is hard to define or measure when talking about languages), but not all of them are complex is the same way. Early Indo-European languages were often very morphologically complex, synthetic languages, with numerous verbal inflections and nominal declensions. Through sound changes, most modern Indo-European language have lost much of that morphological complexity, and have become more analytical, which simply means they have become more complex with respect to rules governing syntax. This also applies to Indo-European languages; other families show the opposite sorts of changes, where free particles or words become attached to noun or verb roots and eventually become affixes which add grammatical information, making the language more morphologically complex, and thus more synthetic. --Whimemsz 01:58, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

All languages, not just those of Indo-European origin undergo change, and one typical feature of this is the shortening of words. The reason for this is that people tend to drop sounds from words while speaking at natural speed. As for grammatical cases being dropped, I think this is more prevelant in languages which have either developed large empires (e.g. Latin, Sanskrit, Persian, etc.) or have been involved in extensive trade with large numbers of speakers of other languages (e.g. the Germanic languages). -- As for the more primitive languages being more complex, we could compare that to the fact that the very first computer filled an entire room, while these days I can sit here on my sofa with my laptop and write this answer. Also, we should not forget that the languages of the classics does not in any way reflect the languages of the common people of the time, and is in fact more conservative. The language of the common people of Greece was only ever really written down for the first time when the Gospels were written. Certain later periods of Middle Egyptian have more in common with Old Egyptian, a language written down over a thousand years before, and therefore completely different from the contemporary spoken language. This was largely due to a conservative reverence for ancestors and more ancient ways. Givnan 06:32, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

: Why would trade and/or empire size be important in dropping cases? It doesn't appear that way to me. The Roman empire was bigger and had more trade than any of the romance-language countries. Yet it was the smaller vulgar languages which dropped the cases and evolved into the romance languages, not Latin. The nordic languages all dropped their cases (except icelandic) but German did not, yet germany had more trade and a bigger empire than they did. English seems to me to be the *only* language which DID drop cases and have a comparatively large empire/trade network. Explaining icelandic is simpler though: Due to their relative isolation it hasn't changed much in any respect in the last millenium. Obviously trade and size means more foreign influences and more change, but change doesn't seem to neccessarily mean dropping cases. --BluePlatypus 14:07, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

The fact that it was the small vulgar languages such as French, Spanish, etc., which dropped their cases, and not Latin, is exactly my point. It was after Latin became spoken in these provinces that French and Spanish became spoken, and being spoken by foreigners. These languages dropped the cases. Germany did not have more trade than the Nordic countries, as the Scandinavians were travelling as traders throughout the world (as far as Russia to the East, and as far as Arabia to the South). The Swedish island of Guttland in the Baltic was a total melting pot of nations and had a major port joining Asia and Europe. As far as German is concerned, New High German has a far less complex case system than Old High German had. The isolation of Iceland and the almost perfect preservation of its language in over one thousand years of its history is a perfect example of my point. Givnan 15:48, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

:The "almost perfect preservation" of Icelandic has been greatly exaggerated in the popular mind. It's true the written language hasn't changed much, but a written language isn't a language. The phonology of Icelandic has changed massively over the past 1000 years, and the morphology and syntax have changed about as much as German has in the same time period. --Angr (tɔk) 15:56, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

: You're thinking about the Viking-era trade networks, which is irrelevant in this context because cases were not dropped from the Scandinavian languages until centuries after the Viking age. Germany did indeed have more trade in the middle ages. Haven't you heard of the Hanseatic League? --BluePlatypus 16:49, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Actually, 12th Century documents written in East Norse already display a considerable amount of case-dropping and is very much more akin to the English of the time than Old Icelandic. The viking age had only just ended, but there was still a considerable amount of trade going on, especially with Eastern Europe and Asia. During the viking age, mercenaries were brought in from countries all over the known world. Also, what I've been saying is that written languages very often reflect an older period of its spoken counterpart (as Angr above agrees), and indeed, while this is not directly related to case-dropping it may serve to illustrate my case, in many modern German dialects, 'der, die, das' have all been reduced to a single phoneme 'd'. Givnan 06:09, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

: Well I wouldn't say 'just ended' for stuff more than a century later. But in any case, I still don't buy the argument. During the middle ages (which at least the majority seem to hold that cases were dropped in Scandinavian), the #1 trading partner of Sweden was Germany, in particular Lübeck and Hamburg. IIRC the Dutch were second in importance. So you have to ask the question: If trade was so important for the development of the language, then shouldn't it have had the effect to retain the cases, given that they were trading the most with people who used them? There's no disputing that German is the language which has had the greatest influence on Swedish, so why didn't the grammar become as germanized as the vocabulary did? It doesn't fit - there has to be other factors. --BluePlatypus 01:07, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Fair enough, then. But what would you say the reason was? In my first post to this thread, I put it down to one major yet simple feature of language change: shortening (I then went on to say that it seems more prevalent in languages with the most contact with other languages). And then why is it that the major Finno-Ugric languages retain a fairly 'conservative' case system? Givnan 05:33, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

: Well, I can't claim to have an answer to that. I'm just saying I don't see that general pattern. As for the Finno-Ugric languages, I think the answer is rather simple: Since they differ so radically from their neighboring languages that they're highly resistant to change. They're more of agglutinative languages than fusional, and I'm not sure the trend of dropping cases applies equally. Why expect the same trend starting with 8 cases (Sanskrit) as when you start with 30 (as in some Uralic languages)? --BluePlatypus 04:26, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

how do you say in french "once upon a time in a land far far away" and "they lived happily aver after"?

• See Once upon a time for this phrase in other languages, including French. I think in French the saying "Ils se marièrent et eurent beaucoup d'enfants" (lit: They got married and had lots of children) is the equivalent of "happily ever after". Hope this helps... СПУТНИК^СССР 23:06, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

=January 5=

Was "thou artn't" a contraction used in the days of Early Modern English for "thou art not"? -lethe ^talk 06:18, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

:I think I've seen "thou'rt not". User:Zoe|^(talk) 16:37, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

first of all id like 2 start by wishing u guys a happy new 'wiki'year(altough i'm 4 days late)

guys can u help me out with these words

• squabbling in evidence at 21's 1920(5,8)(*A*T*P*L*T***)
• major residential area(4)
• it's done in prison (4)

::Rape ? StuRat 12:40, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

::Time. - Nunh-huh 20:59, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

• first lord of the treasury (5,8)(*R*M*M*N*S***)
• cockney expression of surprise (3,5)(*O*L****)

please heelp me out here

...,.,,

:A four-letter word for a major residential area? Do you need a hint? And what's done in prison? The Cockney expression of surprise could be "coo lovey". --Angr (tɔk) 11:59, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

::I'm pretty sure it's not 'coo lovey'. Actually, I'm very sure. It's probably 'cor blimey', and you've missed a letter out. Nobody's going to be able to help you with the first one, as our psychic powers won't tell us what 21 was. Proto t c 12:32, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

:::All I can think of for "21" is the 21 Club, but I don't know of any squabbling that took place there in 1920. --Angr (tɔk) 12:38, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

:::(*A*T*P*L*T***) (5,8) could be something politics, though... --Angr (tɔk) 12:41, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

:If you know that Tony Blair is the current "First Lord of the Treasury", the solution should be obvious. Lupo 12:07, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

please i requested 4 help AND NOT SARCASM

:We're not being sarcastic! The first one we don't know, but I suspect it's something plus POLITICS. The second one is probably CITY, the third one either TIME or RAPE, the fourth one PRIME MINISTER, and the fifth one either COO LOVEY or COR BLIMEY. --Angr (tɔk) 12:57, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

::: Cor Blimey wouldn't fit. I suggest COR LUMMY. JackofOz 23:50, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

::Indeed I wasn't trying to be sarcastic. However, I find that being given the solutions to a crossword puzzle takes all the fun out of it. Thus I thought I'd give you another hint that should've led you to "Prime Minister". Lupo 13:03, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

[http://www.theanswerbank.co.uk/Quizzes_and_Puzzles/ This] is a good site for help with crosswords, as it is inhabited by people who do them all the time. --Shantavira 13:49, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

:In the first clue, the "21's" is probably referring to the solution to clue number 21. So, if the solution to clue 21 was "London", you would read the first clue you listed as "squabbling in evidence at London's 1920." -- AJR | Talk 16:48, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

::It's probably "party politics". Adam Bishop 17:14, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

hey guys it worked THANKS A LOT TO ALL OF YOU $im sorry i was a bit pissed of earlier in the dayit was not cor blimey or coo lovey

it was cor limmey

I was wondering what the common name for a drink in a small box is. These types of drinks have many different names but i am looking for a suitable name to use on wikipedia. To drink it, you insert a straw into the top. I know in Australia alone there are many names, such as poppa and juice box. Any suggestions?--Ali K 12:42, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

:I always heard juice box in the U.S. too. --Angr (tɔk) 12:51, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

:In the UK, they're normally called cartons, which is also what the biggest manufacturer of the things, Tetra Pak, calls them. -- AJR | Talk 16:57, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

::I'd call it a carton if it holds a liter or more of juice. But the little serving-size ones (200-250 ml) are juice boxes. Kids take them to school in their lunchboxes. --Angr (tɔk) 17:16, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

:: Actually Tetra Pak calls them the "Tetra Brik". --BluePlatypus 20:12, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

::: Yeah, juice box seems to be the one. What are common brands in the U.S. and UK? --Ali K 03:44, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

::::FWIW, I call them Trinkpäckchen in German. Wikipeditor

:::::Do you mean common brands of carton, or common brands of drink? smurrayinchester^{(User), (Talk)} 09:26, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

::::::I mean common brands of drink. But these will be written on the juice box for example: 'Golden Circle's Orange and Pine drink.'--Ali K 07:47, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

::Carton only means any paper container (usually for a liquid) to me. The only really common use I've heard for it is milk carton for either the single serving or the half-gallon. Dave 07:51, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

:::Common brands of drink sold in those small cartons in the UK are various flavours of Ribena and a range of (additive filled?) fruit juices called Just Juice. Oh. Wait. The name implies no additives, rather, doesn't it? I'm sure there are others sold in such packaging but I can;t recall any at the moment. --bodnotbod 23:39, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

See chappati. --Angr (tɔk) 14:20, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

I don't trust Babelfish for anything resembling a coherent sentence. I'd appreciate anyone who can translate these short phrases into Swedish. (This isn't homework, by the way.)

1. "The flow of time is always cruel."__

2. "I can only speak English." (I'd like if someone could tell me how to pronounce this, too.) __

3. "Psychology" and "Psychology student" __

4. "Sex, drugs, Kubrick and night swimming" __ Thanks. :)

• 1) "Tidens gång är alltid grym" 2) "Jag kan bara engelska". 3) "Psykologi", "Psykologistuderande", 4) "Sex, droger, Kubrick och nattsim". [http://www.transparent.com/languagepages/Swedish/SwPhrases.htm This page] has some sound samples which should help you with #2. But you won't need it. English has been a mandatory subject in Swedish high-schools since 1849, and in elementary schools since 1945. Today it's mandatory from the first grade. You'll have great difficulty finding a Swede not able to understand a simple phrase like "I only speak English". --BluePlatypus 18:45, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

What does boddy bop mean?

:*A discussion [http://www.zetaminor.com/roobarb/lofiversion/index.php/t4788.html here] suggests it's electronic shuffling of human images "backwards and forwards on screen in time to music." Maybe like the famous propaganda gag of Hitler doing a jig when he marched down the Champs-Élysées. Halcatalyst 00:08, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

::*Possibly worth checking that you haven't simply misheard the term body popping a type of dance very popular in the UK, having been imported from the States in the very early 1980s. --bodnotbod 23:42, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

On that template is the term "voice". Does that refer to grammatical voice or writer's voice? I'm No Parking and I approved this message 05:50, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

:*Active voice (I hit the ball) vs passive voice (the ball was hit by me). Copy editors mark up this sort of thing. I don't thoink they'd touch the author's voice, which is really part of style. Halcatalyst 06:02, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

But when there is a choice between active and passive voice, this is

also a part of style. And in either case, "style" is mentioned in the

template. It makes no sense to me for "voice" to be in there.

--Anonymous, 10:00 UTC, January 6, 2006

:*I prefer a passive/aggressive voice: Your ass will be kicked by me. StuRat 06:41, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

• Anon, why don't you read the Wkipedia editors' article on copy deiting? Halcatalyst 15:39, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

:*Done, and thanks. It had not occurred to me that such a page would exist separately from the Wikipedia:Manual of Style. Okay, it refers to "tone, style, and voice", but it doesn't explain what it means by them. Still, the fact that these are grouped together seems to make clear that they are thought of as all one thing. Therefore it must be the "author's voice" that's intended, rather than the grammatical meaning as suggested earlier by... oh! that was you! Huh. --Anon, 18:38 UTC

::*OK, I admit I don't know what "voice" means. But I do copy edit. Halcatalyst 01:26, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

:*Hee. "Copy deiting" looks like it means playing G-d with the articles instead of just correcting the mistakes. Dave 09:33, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

::*Either (a) fire the copy editor or (b) deify him!!! Halcatalyst 02:12, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

=January 6=

Please could anyone explain the origin of the term "broad" meaning girl/woman/lady etc and frequently used in the USA during the 1920-1950 period?

:According to [http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=broad], it might have arose as being suggestive of broad hips, or it could be tracable to the American English word abroadwife for a woman away from her husband, often a slave. GeeJo _{(t) (c)} • 09:41, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

How big is fox, coyote, and wolf scat?

:This is not a language question. Please ask it at Wikipedia:Reference desk/Science. --Angr (tɔk) 10:29, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

::Even though the question is about crap, I don't think it's a crappy question, but would like to point out that foxes aren't canines, but wolves, coyotes and, of course, dogs, are. StuRat 00:56, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

::: Who said foxes were canines? JackofOz 01:06, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

::::Who said foxes weren't? Wikipedia seems to think they are. Elf | Talk 01:16, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

:::::Well, they're canids, but they're in the Tribe Vulpini, not the Tribe Canini. And the person who asked the question implied they were canines by labeling the question "canines" and then asking about foxes. --Angr (tɔk) 01:19, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

::::::Rule of thumb: probably significantly smaller than the animal itself. --Black Carrot 04:42, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

---WTH?? "tribe"?

:Ita. "Tribi Canini" et "Tribi Vulpini" sunt sub sectiones de familiae Canidae et super sectiones de geni, id est...sorry I got carried away there. Family is higher than tribe is higher than genus. Click on Canidae for an example of how the classification works. WAvegetarian ^(talk) (email) ^(contribs)

This message was left at b:simple:Wikibooks:Staff lounge

Could someone form here please go to simple.wikibooks and answer this as there is no-one there who can answer this question. Thanks,

Gerard Foley 15:40, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

: My patience with those can't distinguish "patients" from "patience" is running out. JackofOz 23:46, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

::What happened to assuming good faith? I assumed her husband was a doctor and he usually assigns his patients the job of teaching Apache to those who want to learn, but at the moment he doesn't have any. :p Angr (tɔk) 23:49, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

:::"Doctors who lack patience soon will lack patients, as well." StuRat 00:51, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

::: i dont ever read this page, so sorry for the late response. there's more than one Apachean language.

:::if husband is Chiricahua, then Mrs. Runningdeer should contact Michael Darrow from the Fort Sill tribe. he has put together a little booklet on the language. there is no grammar of Chiricahua, so if more in depth study will require delving into Harry Hoijer's publications from 1930s-1950s. University of Virginia put a page of Hoijer's texts - the grammatical sketch is here: http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/apache/frames/grammar.html. Chiricahua is very close to Mescalero, so information on this language is helpful. no linguist is really working on Chiricahua unfortunately. Willem de Reuse & me gave Mr. Darrow a list of nouns.

::: Linguist Scott Rushforth is doing work on Mescalero, so he should be contacted for info on this language. with the Mescalero tribe (in New Mexico) he published a vocabulary list in the 1980s (mostly nouns). i dont know what kind of pedagogical materials have been/are being developed. Rushforth recently a grant to do some work.

::: Plains Apache has perhaps only one male speaker remaining (lives in Oklahoma). no grammar or dictionary. William Bittle wrote a dissertation in 1960s & has a few articles published. Willem de Reuse & Melissa Axelrod have done a little fieldwork (de Reuse is most recent & still in contact).

::: Jicarilla has several people involved. Melissa Axelrod and/or Merton Sandoval should contacted. there is a very elementary phrase book available from amazon.com. there are dictionaries & other material written for & by the Jicarilla tribe. a big dictionary is being developed by Axelrod.

::: Western Apache is receiving a lot of attention from Willem de Reuse. it has a not-so-good dictionary and many very simple pedagogical materials published by the various tribes (mostly by White Mountain in the 1970s with SIL linguists). De Reuse has an advanced pedagogical grammar in press (maybe even will be published this year), this is probably the most indepth grammar of an Apachean language besides Navajo. Keith Basso has

::: Lipan is dead. no grammar or dictionary & hardly anything published. Hoijer's unpublished fieldnotes are available from the American Philosophical Society. his Lipan stem list is lost, according to de Reuse.

::: Navajo is also Apachean. there are tons of things written on this language. in order to understand the other languages well, these works should probably be consulted.

::: the various tribes should also be contacted. Hoijer is dense, but very informative. check out the biblio: Southern Athabaskan languages/Bibliography. also look through the International Journal of American Linguistics.

::: peace – ishwar  (speak) 20:17, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

I have been asked an interesting question. When a person is stood by a door, welcoming people to the premises, it is often referred to 'meet and greet'. I have been asked what the opposite phrase is, when you say goodbye to people as they leave the premises. Does anyone have an idea on this?

Thanks in advance for your thoughts and comments,

Pete62.232.224.4 15:58, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

:Um..."Dismiss with a kiss"? --Gareth Hughes 16:02, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

::"Farewell", the person doing it being a fareweller? --Canley 17:29, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

:::See you out and shed a tear (abbreviation : tear you out). Or : demeet and regreet ? --Harvestman 19:36, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

• And of course there may not be any such thing. Stabilizer 17:02, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

:"Eject and respect"? ;o) I don't think there's a formal or obvious opposite, I'd say it's a question without satisfactory answer. However, if you were satisfied with just the title of a person who meets, greets and waves goodbye "host" would probably be apt. --bodnotbod 23:53, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Thanks Bodnotbod, I'll modify your "Eject and respect" and plump for "eject with respect".

Pete83.245.83.237 21:40, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Anyone have an idea what "Shreveport" might look like rendered into katakana? I've looked around for lists of city names in Japanese script, but no luck on this one. The "shr" is particularly troublesome. Thanks! — BrianSmithson 18:21, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

: Follow the link to the japanese version of the page you linked to. "シュリーブポート" seems to be it. --BluePlatypus 20:07, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

::What a wonderful idea. Thanks for the tip; this'll come in handy for other cities, too. — BrianSmithson 20:16, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

::: Why not try Wiktionary? --Gerard Foley 23:03, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

An alternative to the above シュリーブポート could be シュリーヴポート, which takes into account the 'v' in Shreveport. It also types more smoothly on a Japanese computer, without having to change bits of it from kanji to katakana. Givnan 08:16, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Is there a name for using a word twice, back to back? Example: If I had had a better education I would already know the answer to this question.

:*Some folks, for example Toastmasters, call it double dribble. Halcatalyst 18:47, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

:*Reconsidering this, I don't understand the question. The question I answered was, "What is a name for speech stutters... 'Um, um,' 'er, er,' uh, uh,' etc.?" Many Toastmasters call it "double dribble," as in the game of basketball. Halcatalyst 03:36, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

:: The example was just a particular form (past subjunctive?) of the verb "to have". There are other ways a word can be repeated that don't involve verb forms. I don't think there's a name that covers all these instances, other than "repeated words". JackofOz 03:56, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

:::And spell checkers give a warning then. There is also homonymy, as, in french, "les poules du couvent couvent" (the convent's hens lay). --Harvestman 19:33, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Anybody know the origin of the word Dixie, as used to describe the South?

:*Probably from Mason-Dixon Line. Halcatalyst 18:46, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

:The article Dixie discusses this. That article doesn't get into the fact that the term was used with some regularity in minstrel show tunes from the 1840s and 1850s to describe a sort of generic "land of the black slaves". When the song "Dixie" exploded in popularity across the United States, Dixie and the South became synonymous. — BrianSmithson 18:48, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

"The secret life of ..." seems to be a common start to titles of books and other works of art. For example, The Secret Life of Plants, The Secret Life of Machines, The Secret Life of Bees, all start that way. Does anybody know the origin of this type of title (i.e., the first work of art which publicized this phrase to the extent that all modern versions are derived from its use)? --JianLi 21:53, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

:The Secret Life of Dogs might be the first one. StuRat 23:08, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

::No idea of the date of that one but The Secret Life of Walter Mitty probably started the craze. MeltBanana 00:57, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

:::I think "The Secret Life of (a specific person)" is quite different from "The Secret Life of (a general class of things)", so don't think that started the trend. StuRat 02:25, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

• It goes back pretty far. 1897, for example: "The secret life of harmonic vibration containing three studies and twelve lessons". --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 22:04, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

How would I say "from Oceania" or "of Oceania" in a single, like "French" (of or from France). The obvious guess, Oceanic, has a very different meaning. Would I say "Winston Smith is an Oceanic citizen" for example? smurrayinchester^{(User), (Talk)} 22:54, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

: Since "Oceania" was a fictitious country, the adjective is undefined. But I think I'd prefer "Oceanian" to "Oceanic". JackofOz 23:44, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

: I'd think it better in general not to create an adjective form of a fictional place, at least in non-fiction writing.--Prosfilaes 00:02, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

::That's probably a good idea. Otherwise, you end up with useless words like "Utopian" or "Lilliputian". --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 22:22, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

::Well, Oceania (1984) is fictitious, Oceania isn't. Either way, I'd go with "Oceanian". --Angr (tɔk) 00:12, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

=January 7=

Any ideas how should the piece marked bold be translated into english? Потом не выдерживаю, луплю кулаком по столу, ору и брызгаюсь: - Умник! Лопух развесистый! Обрадовался - два года! Да с таким дипломом ты всю жизнь будешь сдувать пыль с вольтметров на какой-нибудь энергостанции в Лабытнанги!

Thank you. ellol 00:27, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

: Умник! means "good boy", "smart lad" or something like that. I suspect the other 2 words are an idiomatic expression that can't be translated word for word. Лопух means a burdock, a type of plant, and развесистый means "branching" or "spreading". JackofOz 00:48, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

:: If it were so easy.. Умница, yeah, means "good boy" and "smart lad". Умник usually has ironic meaning: as if the guy thought a bit and did something unusual, which he thinks is a good thing; but really it's not, and it would be better if he didn't do it. Лопух, except for burdock, means "dumb man", and is used usually when a man did a silly thing. Лопух развесистый, lit. meaning big burdock (also referring to развесить уши(Один врет, другой уши развесил!)) expresses here that a guy is "very-very dumb".

:: So the question could be, how to express "very-very dumb", using literary english language? ellol 01:15, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

::: A real smart guy! You must have been born yesterday! This is not so much about being dumb as being gullible. --Ornil 02:18, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

:::: Thank you. ellol 10:11, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

:::: Sorry, it's my mistake, the text doesn't involve being gullible. And your variant is too long, after all, it's invective though a literary one. I would propose something like "A know-all! A clinical idiot!".. ellol 02:47, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

: Could you help me in another place? Он уныло кивает. И вдруг начинает с увлечением объяснять, что все не так страшно, как мне кажется, нужно только уехать отсюда и переждать несколько лет, а там все непременно изменится, не может быть, чтобы не изменилось, не бывает такого...

:I'm unsure about the last words, i rendered them as "and then all will surely change, there is no way of not changing, such things don't occur.."

:I suppose it's not natural.. how it could be done better? ellol 03:35, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

:: It's pretty good, actually, I think. I would maybe say It's impossible for it not to change, it can't happen. --Ornil 20:33, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

::: I will use this, thank you. Just am trying to write a page about my favourite writer in spare time :) ellol 10:47, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

I can not find this phrase in the list of latin pharses. Somone posted this as a response to a diatribe I wrote. I don't want to ask the poster what it means for fear of fool-dom. Can ye translate it ?

--Omni Maximus God_of_War. Omni Maximus God_of_War...

'Omni Maximus' means 'greatest of all'. Givnan 08:05, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

:"Omni" means "to everyone" (dative, not genitive). The original poster was probably just trying to be a smartass and doesn't really understand what it means either (because it doesn't really seem to mean anything). Adam Bishop 21:48, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

::That is to say that it literally translates as "to all greatest." I think xe may have been trying to say that everyone holds xym in the highest regard, exempli gratia, "MARS EST MAXIMUS OMNI," although that is an unnatural construct and looks highly contrived in both Latin and English. I'd say it's been too long since their high school Latin class.WAvegetarian ^(talk) (email) ^(contribs) 08:16, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

::"To all greatest" would be "omni maximo", if "greatest" is describing "all". "Mars est maximus omni" could make sense, "Mars is the greatest to all", in the sense of "everyone thinks Mars is the greatest" or something (although it would probably be plural, omnibus). Adam Bishop 13:23, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

In speech (sound-wise), what is the difference between these two sentences:

• You told me I'm a bore in bed.
• You told me, "I'm a bore in bed."

I feel like maybe there's a pause, but that seems very optional. It seems like it must be a tone thing. Does the second one maybe rise when the quotation starts or am I just playing with my voice? Dave 09:37, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

:Yeah, i would say that the second would have a pause and the quote may even be said in a different tone of voice.--Ali K 13:48, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

The first one is incorrect. In indirect speech you should say 'You told me I was a bore in bed', and the second one actually means the original speaker is calling himself or herself a bore in bed. Givnan 14:45, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

:*Actually, it's perfectly legitimate to say "You told me I'm a bore in bed." The meaning would be: you told me (at some time in the past) I'm (generally, always) a bore in bed.But "You told me I was a bore in bed" implies you said it one time. Halcatalyst 15:50, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

:I wasn't asking for a grammaticality judgment, and they're both perfectly grammatical in every dialect of English I've ever heard of, anyway. Incorrect is not a word you should be using to discuss people's speech. Dave 02:12, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

They can mean two different things. The first mean's I was told that I'm a bore, the second is someone told me she's a bore. The first one is thus ambiguous and should be rearanged if clarity is desired. - Taxman ^Talk 17:25, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

:Yes, we all know that. That wasn't the question. Read more carefully next time. —Keenan Pepper 21:44, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

::Are you this rude to everyone or am I just special. Sometimes the obvious needs to be said because we don't all know much of anything. - Taxman ^Talk 01:15, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

:I think the tone thing is real. The first one flows smoothly through with a continuous pitch contour, but the second one pauses on a falling tone and then resumes the quotation on a higher tone. I gave it to someone else to read and he pronounced it the same way. I'm from Florida, if it matters. —Keenan Pepper 21:44, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

::I think the basic difference is that with the first one, you're making a statement, and with the second, you're cutting off your statement to imitate someone, right down to their choice of pronoun. So, as Keenan Pepper said, there is a generally a slight pause (to indicate a seperation), then the quote starts, continues, and finishes like any other sentence, with a certain rounding off of tone because people are lazy, and sometimes an unusual voice or rhythm to make fun of the person being imitated. --Black Carrot 00:05, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

::Thanks, Keenan. I'm from Florida, too, so even though it doesn't really matter, it definitely gives a little more weight to my initial guess. I was wondering how other people heard the tones, and falling followed by higher sounds like a pretty great way to describe it. Dave 02:12, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

I read somewhere that the "The" in The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn only became popular after an illustrator used it in a caption for the book, so the true title (and the one to which Wikipedia redirects to) is actually Adventures of Huckleberry Finn. Likewise, Henry Louis Stevenson originally titled his novel Strange Case of Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde, sans the "The." How common are titles that "omit" the "The," and is this usage (or lack thereof) somehow grammatically incorrect (as the Jekyll and Hyde article says it is)? --JianLi 17:42, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

:When talking about it, "the" should be included, if missing. For example the sentence "I liked Strange Case of Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde" seems very wrong. Whether "the" is in the official title doesn't much matter, though. StuRat 18:09, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

:*Note 1 in the Jekyll/Hyde article says the author wanted to omit the "the" to make the title more mysterious. I have no reason to doubt that.

:*ESL speakers often have problems with correct usage of the articles 'a,' 'an,' and 'the.' It's actually more complicated than most native speakers realize. Here are two points from Rules for Writers, 5th ed., by Diana Hacker:

::#Use the with most nouns whose specific identity is known.

::#Do not use the with plural or noncount nouns meaning "all" or "in general"; do not use the with most singular proper names.

::*Halcatalyst 01:58, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

::*Another point Hacker makes is that 'a,' 'an,' and 'the' can be added where necessary for grammatical completeness.

::*However, I don't think the issue in titles is really about grammar. It's about style. Halcatalyst 02:05, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

How would one say 'two all beef patties special sauce lettuce cheese pickles onions on a sesame seed bun' in finnish? Do they have that mcdonalds saying in finland?

:[http://www.mcdonalds.fi/index.php They're there] for sure! hydnjo talk 21:23, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

We are looking for people to translate the following into as many languages as possible

1. swimsuit
2. sort
3. when pigs fly

Thanks, Gerard Foley 00:09, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

• Wouldn't it be easier to sort out what to do with the translations if you specified what sort of sort you meant? --Anon, 00:49 UTC.

:Note that "sort" also has an alternate meaning, primarily in British English, as in the phrase "we'll have to sort that out later", where it means to figure out or solve the problem, it doesn't mean to put in chronological order, alphabetical order, or any other order. StuRat 08:37, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

::I dunno, that seems pretty common on this side of the pond too. - Taxman ^Talk 16:44, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

For "When pigs fly", you need to decide whether you want a literal translation, which will sound like "when a porcine animal undergoes aeronautical motion", whether you want to translate the meaning, which is "never", or whether you want to try to translate into some other humorous expression in each language which means some improbable event. For example, in our own language, "when hell freezes over" is another expression with the same meaning. However, some languages may lack any such expression. StuRat 21:09, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

• Malayalam

Kakka malannu parakkum (The crow will fly upside down; kakka = crow; malannu = upside down' parakkum = will fly)

Kozhikku mula varumpol (When the hen has a breast; kozhikku = for hen; mula = breast; varumpol = comes)

• Hindi

Sooraj pashchim se ugega (When the sun will rise in the West)

:*But in french : [quand les poules auront des dents] les renards auront des tenailles (Cavanna) : foxes will wear pliers. --Harvestman 20:04, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

=January 8=

• 'What's happening' as this site [http://www.quepasa.co.uk] attempts to tell us. --Tachs 13:03, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
• Yes, that's the literal translation. I think it's the equivalent of 'What's up?'. For some reason, my Spanish colleague always answers this question with 'Nada'. :-) ----Benne ['bɛnə] _(talk) 17:52, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

Literally, "Que pasa"? means, what is happening, what's passing? So "Nada" is perfectly acceptable -- "Nothing". What's up? is "Que tal?" User:Zoe|^(talk) 22:40, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

What is the Unicode for the Syriac letter resh with seyame (i.e., with two dots rather than one, indicating plural)? Suryoye (pl.) in Syriacs is now spelled the same way as Suryoyo (sg.) in Syriac language, but should be written with seyame. I would like to correct that, but can't find the character in the Unicode chart found in the article Syriac alphabet, probably due to an outdated Windows version. Thank you. ------Benne ['bɛnə] _(talk) 17:43, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

:Unicode for Syriac is a bit sparse, but the usual way I encode this is U+716 U+308 (dotless dolath-rish and combining dieresis), which gives ܖ̈. The current standard gives no other input method other than this workaround. --Gareth Hughes 16:48, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

=January 9=

(no questions today)

:*So what was everybody doing on Jan. 9 ? Halcatalyst 01:35, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

=January 10=

It seems that we currently do not have any article geared toward helping English-only speakers pronounce sounds only present in languages outside of English. Articles like IPA Chart for English do exist, but are not particularly helpful unless you already know IPA and are interested in learning how to pronounce English. Does anyone know of articles or external sites that could help me understand IPA transliterations? Theshibboleth 01:20, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

:[http://www.zompist.com/kitlong.html#sounds This site] is a good introduction to some basic phonetic terminology. [http://www.umanitoba.ca/faculties/arts/linguistics/russell/138/notes.htm This site] is also a good introduction to some of the concepts. For recordings of different IPA characters (to give you a general feel for what a given description/character actually sounds like), try the Wikipedia pages on different sounds (e.g., Voiced bilabial fricative), and [http://www.ling.hf.ntnu.no/ipa/full/ these] [http://hctv.humnet.ucla.edu/departments/linguistics/VowelsandConsonants/course/chapter1/chapter1.html charts] (but for the love of God, stay away from [http://www.paulmeier.com/ipa/charts.html this chart]! It's highly inaccurate in many, many places). The phonetician [http://hctv.humnet.ucla.edu/departments/linguistics/VowelsandConsonants/index/sounds.html Peter Ladefoged's] site has recordings of a number of more obscure or less well-known types of sounds or phonological contrasts from around the world. I hope that helps! --Whimemsz 02:38, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

give me a 2-3 page essay on 3 insirational things tommy douglas did to canada that made him an inspirational canadian, please. Thanks.

--216.185.69.78 16:43, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

• Tommy Douglas was able to become an important political figure in Canada and make many important contributions to the government of Canada because he did his own homework. And so should you. Ground Zero | t 16:45, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
• How much will you pay us? User:Zoe|^(talk) 22:41, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

it is also essential to enquire what affect/effect new liberalism as an ideology actually had on practical british politics. Which one? I consulted [http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/affect] to no avail. --86.144.85.25 20:02, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

'effect'. --Nick Boalch ^?!? 20:06, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

In general, affect is a verb, and effect is a noun -- when you affect something you have an effect. You can also affect a mannerism or style of dress, but you will not have the desired effect if people think you are affected. However, "affect" is used as a technical term is psychology and related fields. AFAIK that is the only legit use of it as a noun. DES ^(talk) 20:10, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

:'effect' is also in common use as a verb; for example one might effect a transformation in something. --Nick Boalch ^?!? 20:12, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

::True. I persoanlly dislike that useage -- generally "cause" or "make" or some such verb can expres s the same meaning more clearly IMO -- but it is a valid use. However the use of "effect" as a noun is IMO far more common, and "affect" is prtty much always a verb (with the exception i mentiond above) which is what contols in the example that started this thread. DES ^(talk) 20:25, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

• In the example, 'effect' is correct. This is a usage question for which [http://www.dianahacker.com/resdoc/ Diana Hacker] is a good resource. She says, "Affect is usually a verb meaning 'to influence.' Effect is usually a verb meaning 'result.' The drug did not affect the disease, and it had adverse side effects. Effect can also be a verb meaning 'to bring about.' Only the president can effect such change." Halcatalyst 23:21, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

What is the origin of the word "Ishkabible"?

:I have no idea how authoritative it is, but [http://www.worldwidewords.org/weirdwords/ww-ish1.htm try this].--◀Puck^talk▶ 00:48, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

This question was asked a week ago, and as a result of our answers, the article at Ish Kabibble was written. User:Zoe|^(talk) 18:59, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

=January 11=

What percent of the modern english language has latin language roots?

:Try doing a search on Wikipedia. See that little box on the left of your browser that says "search"? You can type something in, say, "English Language", and you can find all sorts of things, like answers to your questions. Because I'm too nice, here you go: (this is a direct quote from the English language article:

::Word origins:

::One of the consequences of the French influence is that the vocabulary of English is, to a certain extent, divided between those words which are Germanic (mostly Old English) and those which are "Latinate" (Latin-derived, mostly from Norman French but some borrowed directly from Latin).

::A computerised survey of about 80,000 words in the old Shorter Oxford Dictionary (3rd ed.) was published in Ordered Profusion by Thomas Finkenstaedt and Dieter Wolff (1973) which estimated the origin of English words as follows:

::French, including Old French and early Anglo-French: 28.3%

::Latin, including modern scientific and technical Latin: 28.24%

::Old and Middle English, Old Norse, and Dutch: 25%

::Greek: 5.32%

::No etymology given: 4.03%

::Derived from proper names: 3.28%

::All other languages contributed less than 1%

::James D. Nicoll made the oft-quoted observation: "The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and riffle their pockets for new vocabulary." СПУТНИК^{ССС Р} 02:43, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

:::Note that most French also has Latin roots, so the 28.3% of English coming from French could also be considered as coming indirectly from Latin. StuRat 04:11, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

:::: Indirect influences are aren't useful if you want to give a percentage. Take "chivalry". From Old French "chevalerie", from Latin "caballus", which in turn comes from Celtic (compare Irish "capall"). So you'll have to count that as a French word, a Latin word and a Celtic word. Either it won't add up to 100%, or you'll have to draw the line at saying it's 99% Indo-European and 1% "other".

What is the japanese word for monkey? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.198.104.110 (talk • contribs)

:猿 is Japanese for "monkey" and it is pronounced saru. hydnjo talk 05:00, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

::In Roman alphabet, by the way, it's saru. --Chris S. 05:16, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

::: You can find more at Wiktionary, Gerard Foley 19:54, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

(unsigned)

:English is a grand language where words come from half of Europe. Unfitness is inability as un = in, fit = able and ness = ty, respectively in old english (saxon ?) and latin or french (roman languages).

:Roman words come from a norman conquest that occurred 1,000 years before ; they refer to knowledge, war or luxury. E.g., there are different names for animals in stock, herded by poor saxons (read Ivanhoe), or in the dishes of rich normans. There must be a page somewhere in WP about that. Now, didn't you look up in an online dictionnary ? --Harvestman 19:54, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Can someone help me out with what these letteers/symbols mean?

http://bass.talkspot.com/uploads/3329/Sq%20Brn%20Rubber%20Spool.jpg

Your help is greatly appreciated.

e-mail me at rsmoke at wctel dot net

The symbols are on a spool of stranded rubber, and I suspect it is the manufacturer's name or logo. I woould like to contact them re: more material. thank you for your help.

:Those are spaces in the file name. The Internet and you browser can't deal with spaces so they get represented by the ASCII code for a space instead. Blame it all on Bill Gates--◀Puck^talk▶ 17:00, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

::On, never mind, I just looked at the picture. Your probably talking about those symbols and letters. I'll feel pretty stoopid right now.--◀Puck^talk▶ 17:03, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

:::Never mind, but a hint : those symbols look chinese. This one is really hard : how do yo do to find chinese speaking wikipedians ? tried a search for userboxes ... discovered that the language is abbreviated "zh". Finally :Category:User zh - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia - Articles in category User zh - There are 195 articles in this section of this category. Those articles must refer to Zhōngwén speaking users. See :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:User_zh. The idea is to ask to one of them. --Harvestman 19:32, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Here is the Wiktionary link for 順, I can't fint the second one. Gerard Foley 19:53, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Here's the second: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E7%9B%9B - Louise 19:21 12 January (EST-Oz)

• So here, then, is perhaps the company: [http://www.shunsheng.com.tw/ Shun Sheng Industrial Co., Ltd, Taiwan]. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 16:38, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

::Correct - that is the Shun Sheng company's stamp. --Kainaw ^(talk) 00:59, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

hey

could u help me with these phrases

• only animal allowed in?(5,3) ?guard dog? (how about "house cat"?)
• expression of surprise after sir walters ?(5,5) (I guess this would be something to do with Sir Walter Raleigh - Bod) - great scott Sir Walter Scott MeltBanana
• animal that absorbs liquid(6) - sponge
• little was said to be dangerous (8) - learning
• fighting ship(8) (Only guess I got is battle but it seems unsatisfactory - Bod)look what ive got(c*r*e*t*)could u guys like fill in the blanks--212.72.8.224 06:11, 12 January 2006 (UTC) - "corvette"

• modernise(6) - update
• unsettle(10) -discomforti need a word that starts with r(R*S*O*P*S*)--212.72.3.219 06:43, 12 January 2006 (UTC) - possibly discompose MeltBanana
• figure-department of defense(8) - pentagon
• proverbially a greedy sea bird(6)
• group with common policy(4) - bloc

pls im counting on you guys

:Animal that absorbs liquid is a sponge.

:Figure-department of defense is a pentagon.

::User:Zoe|^(talk) 19:01, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

:::Glad to see this is not homework. Gives us poor desk employees (slaves!) a little pause. Well, try, fighting ship : destroyer, bird : petrel, group : wiki ? --Harvestman 19:16, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

it cant be petrel

because (*a*n**)is what ive figured out - "gannet"?

and for group i have (*l**)--212.72.8.226 19:23, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

:See [http://www.oneacross.com gannet] and maybe club. oneacross.com makes it easier but is that good or not ? --

Harvestman 20:35, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

I so much want the "proverbially greedy sea bird" to have 7 letters, not 6.

:A wonderful bird is the pelican,

:His mouth can hold more than his belly can,

::He can hold in his beak,

::Enough food for a week!

:I'm damned if I know how the hell he can!

: Dixon Lanire Merrith, "The Pelican"(1910) - Nunh-huh 00:59, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

but what about the

=January 12=

I had typed this question in another part of the Wikipedia website, but I still don't understand. Were the words avenue, boulevard and garage were they around before the invention of cars? And did all of the three words originate in France? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 152.163.100.5 (talk • contribs)

:Most good English dictionaries will tell you the origin of the word (its etymology) and the first recorded use of the word in English. According to the Merriam-Webster 11th Collegiate:

::avenue: from Middle French, from the verb avenir, to come to, from Latin advenire, first attested to in 1600.

::boulevard, from a French modification of the Middle Dutch bolwerc, first attested in 1768.

::garage, from the French word garer meaning to dock; first attested in English in 1902.

:So yes, they are all from French, and two of them were around before the invention of cars. - Nunh-huh 00:49, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

:I provided these answers on the Wikipedia:Reference desk/Humanities when you asked the question there. Links are to be clicked, dude. Natgoo 00:55, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

::You could gare or park boats (original meaning, see quai de la gare in Paris, France), chariots, horses, and trains long before motorized cars were invented. --Harvestman 07:51, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

How is it called, when a person doesn't know what word to say next and sais instead a lot of 'a' and 'm' sounds? ellol 00:47, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

:It's usually called "hemming and hawing" or the person is said to "hem and haw". There's probably a much fancier rhetorical term-of-art for it, but I think "hem and haw" is what you're looking for. - Nunh-huh 00:54, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

:: Thank you! You hit the point exactly. ellol 10:15, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

:: They're called "Speech disfluencies". --BluePlatypus 01:34, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

:::Depending on how it sounds, context, and what part of the situation you mean, 'clearing their throat', 'stalling for time', 'bombing', and 'muttering' may also fit. --69.154.179.63 05:25, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

Here's a related discussion from a few days ago. Halcatalyst 00:34, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

In Activision's Call of Duty 2, there is a german phrase painted on a wall at a german defensive position. It reads "Einer spinnt immer!" It intrigued me and I did a literal translation of the phrase at freetranslation.com, but the translation said "One spins always!" Is this a false translation, or is this an actual german phrase, and if so, what does it mean? What is it in reference to? I would greatly appreciate it if you provided me with a explanation to clarify. Thank you --71.49.19.128

: Literally "one is always spinning", as in spinning. While "spinnen" can mean "spinning" it can also be used to mean "crazy" or "nuts" ("Er spinnt!", "He's crazy!"). So: "one is always crazy". --BluePlatypus 05:15, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

What day of the week is represented by the abbreviation "DIE" and what language is it? Thanks —Preceding unsigned comment added by 210.246.4.234 (talk • contribs)

:What's coming to mind for me is German Dienstag or Tuesday. But I don't know if it's an accepted abbreviation in German. --Chris S. 07:15, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

::It certainly isn't the usual abbreviation for Dienstag, which is Di. Are there other days of the week listed too? --Angr (tɔk) 08:39, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

This was on an analogue watch, probably from a person from europe. It is one of the days of the week, set on the watch next to the date (28th). There would have been other days but the watch had stopped on that day. Kind regards == "

:Well, certainly German for Tuesday is the most likely answer. If anyone ever gets the watch started again, or even just manually advances the hands so that the day-of-the-week dial moves on, you'll know it's German if the next one is MIT followed by DON, FRE (FREI?), SAM, SON, MON. --Angr (tɔk) 09:54, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

::I imagine watches rarely use the "Sonnabend" form of "Samstag"? --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 16:31, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

:::Well, it's difficult to abbreviate "Sonnabend" so that it's distinct from "Sonntag", although "Sa" can be considered an abbreviation of Sonnabend as well as Samstag. --Angr (tɔk) 16:39, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

:I have an analog German watch with three letter abbreviations, and yes, it's Dienstag. — Laura Scudder ☎ 17:11, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

:And it uses FRE for Freitag along with the others Angr cites. The DIE always kinda entertained me. — Laura Scudder ☎ 17:14, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

:The conclusion to this is story is that the watch in question was on someone who was in fact dead!!

:I live in Germany and work, have two boys in school, and the days of the week abbreviations are: Mo, Di , Mi, Do, Fr, Sa, So. This "Die" for Di´..., I have personally never seen Die written anywhere. This watch was probably made for the Germans by Americans. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.159.119.39 (talk • contribs)

What is the word for the phenomenon when a street is pointed directly at a landmark in the distance. An old building or a tower usually. It can be that the street was built to point at the landmark or the landmark was built at the end of the street or it can be that it is a coincidence. Sometimes the street might not even go the entire way to the landmark or might be interrupted. Thank you.

:I can't think if there's a single word for it, but one place to look would be reading about Baron Haussmann, some of whose alterations to Paris were specifically the rerouting of various avenues and boulevards to point at various monuments. There are also "monumental avenues" in Washington, D.C., Munich, and Berlin. - Nunh-huh 06:39, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

:Station Approach, Railway Approach, Approach Road &c. chocolateboy 11:04, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Does German have the 'ch' sound as in 'charity"?

:Yes, it does (the German word for "German", deutsch, ends with the sound). But it's pretty rare at the beginnings of words, and is found AFAIK only in loanwords from other languages word-initially. --Angr (tɔk) 14:54, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

::What about tschuss?

:::Apparently from Spanish adiós[http://faql.de/etymologie.html#tschues]. --Angr (tɔk) 06:41, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

• Please ask a specific question, or review our article on etymology. Ground Zero | t 22:34, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

=January 13=

I am looking for the three words in the English language ending in gry. There are Angry and Hungry but what is the third one

:This old chestnut again. There is no third one. --Angr (tɔk) 09:24, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

::This is a question that regularly annoys those who labor at actual physical reference desks, and several maintain web-pages devoted to analysis of the question. In general they seem to believe that it was a riddle of some sort or another, but that the wording of the question has been lost so that the riddle is no longer discernable. For excruciating detail, see [http://www.snopes.com/language/puzzlers/gry.asp] [http://www.english-zone.com/faq/gry-riddle.html] - Nunh-huh 09:53, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

:::Yeah, if the question is phrased "What three words in English have gry at the end?" the answer is "angry, hungry, and gryphon" because it was never specified at which end. --Angr (tɔk) 10:09, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

:::We actually have an article about this: see Gry. --Angr (tɔk) 10:11, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

::::See [http://www.f-secure.com/hoaxes/riddle.shtml Riddle chain letter] on F-Secure hoax info. There are otehr words btw, but are very rare: aggry, ahungry, anhungry, unangry; just don't ask me what they mean. – b_jonas 18:56, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

How come there are two adjectives that describe people from Greece? Wouldn't either "Greek" or "Grecian" suffice? Or is there some minute difference between the two that I was hitherto unaware of? Igor the Lion^(Roar!) 13:31, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

:So that the following joke can be made:

:Q:What's a Grecian urn?

:A:About 80 drachmas a week. Mattley ^(Chattley) 13:37, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

• "Hey, at least they aren't being called rutabagas!", as the Swedes would say. *rimshot* --BluePlatypus 16:11, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

• Hey, that joke is out of date. You have to give the answer in euros now! --Anon, 17:08 UTC, January 13.

:The two words are both derived from Latin: one from Graecus, meaning 'Greek' (both noun and adjective), the other from Graecia, meaning 'Greece'. There's no real difference in meaning, but Grecian seems to apply more to objects; one can speak of a Grecian urn, a Grecian nose, a Grecian statue, or Grecian architecture, but people are more often described as Greek.

:These are not the only such words: Hellenic means exactly the same thing, as does Achaean (in the Iliad at least; it also has more specific meanings). Even Danaian is attested, though it's rare. Names of the Greeks might be helpful. —Charles P. (Mirv) 14:22, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

::It's not the only case of multiple adjectives derived from the same country name, either. Consider "Argentine" and "Argentinian", "Italic" and "Italian", "British" and "Britannic", "Spanish" and "Hispanic". In most cases these have evolved distinct senses, like "Greek" and "Grecian". --Anon, 17:08 UTC, January 13.

The recent change to the Special Characters box has created a new category of Welsh, but I always assumed Welsh used the Latin alphabet (I live on the Welsh/English border, and have never seen these letters). The characters, such as ɱ, ʥ, ɮ and ᵐ don't seem anything like how I have always seen Welsh written. Are these a different way of writing Welsh, maybe Old Welsh or similar? smurrayinchester^{(User), (Talk)} 14:48, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

:I think your cursor must have slipped in the dropdown menu. Those are all from the IPA, the next item down on the list. The Welsh menu item just gives the letters A E I O U W Y, capital and lower case, with acute, grave, circumflex, and dieresis accents on them. Now, some of these (e.g. ä ë ö ẅ ÿ) I've never seen in Welsh, but better safe than sorry. --Angr (tɔk) 15:06, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

::I think Welsh and IPA (or API as they call it) have been mixed up; the API/IPA is empty. These symbols are definitely in the Welsh box. smurrayinchester^{(User), (Talk)} 15:11, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

::Actually, I think mine has become badly messed up somehow (it has Ấ, Ỹ and Ổ as Spanish letters). smurrayinchester^{(User), (Talk)} 15:13, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

:::I think there are still bugs in it, and they're being worked on. At any rate, for me IPA is called IPA and has IPA characters. Angr (tɔk) 16:29, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

In the article Ford Model T, the expression was "... the concept of paying the workers a wage concomitant with the cost of the car, so that they would provide a ready made market.". Someone changed this to "...the concept of paying the workers a wage ancillary with the cost of the car, so that they would provide a ready made market.". Neither of these seems correct to me. Is there a better word to use? Rmhermen 15:01, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

:Proportionate to? Consistent with? --Angr (tɔk) 15:07, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

: It's hard to say what the better word is without knowing exactly what they're trying to say.. although "ancillary" is in any case a terrible substitute for "concomitant" since they don't mean the same thing at all. "Ancillary" implies to me that the wage would be more or less independent of the cost of the car, whereas "concomitant" would mean a wage "in accordance with" or "corresponding to" (that is, "proportionate to" as Angr said) the cost of the car. Of course if the former meaning is factually more correct then it's of course the better word, but it certainly doesn't seem more correct from the context given. --BluePlatypus 16:06, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

::Well, the meaning seems to be that they would be able to afford this car but not a more expensive one. "Proportionate" is better than the other choices, anyway. I haven't read about this, but I doubt that Ford was worried about paying them so much that they would buy more expensive cars; it seems more likely that "a wage sufficient that they could afford the car" is the real meaning. I don't think this is important enough to be placed in the article's lead anyway; the workers can't have formed that large a fraction of the car's market. It should be lower down, but I don't have time to change it now. --Anonymous, 17:17 UTC, January 13.

:"Concomitant" is a thinko for "commensurate". chocolateboy 11:13, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

I don't suppose someone would be willing to have a stab at translating the passage below? I'm researching information for the OMI cryptograph article, and I don't really trust machine translation enough to use it as a source! The original is [http://www.df.unibo.it/museo/files/communication.pdf here] (found [http://www.df.unibo.it/museo/welcome.htm here]).

MACCHINA CRITTOGRAFICA O.M.I. - NISTRI

Italia; circa 1939; O.M.I.

Apparato crittografico che viene considerato la risposta italiana

all’ENIGMA, con la quale condivide l’impiego dei rotori di

cifratura; se ne differenzia, oltre che per l’aspetto esterno, per

il peso piuttosto rilevante, l’alimentazione da rete e in corrente

continua, una maggiore complessità costruttiva dei rotori.

Consente la stampa del testo su nastro di carta accellerando

le procedure di cifratura, decifratura e di verifica del testo. Per

rendere più agevole la battitura dei testi, un motore elettrico

provvede ai movimenti dei meccanismi. Il grave limite di questo

apparecchio era nei contatti elettrici, striscianti, tra i rotori:

nel tempo, l’usura e l’accumulo di sporcizia determinavano

dei falsi contatti pregiudicando fortemente l’affidabilità dell’apparato;

giova comunque ricordare che lo stesso problema,

anche se in misura limitata, si riscontra in tutte le apparecchiature

con lo stesso principio di funzionamento. Impiegata

dalle forze armate italiane in maniera occasionale e discontinua,

la sua cifratura venne forzata dall’Intelligence britannica

nel Febbraio 1940. Venne definitivamente posta fuori servizio

nel Settembre 1941, rimanendo disponibile per il mercato civile

per qualche decennio. Dimensioni: sola macchina 37 x 42

x 17 cm, valigia di trasporto 43 x 48 x 23 cm. Pesi: sola macchina

circa 20 Kg, con valigia ed accessori circa 27 Kg.

L’esemplare esposto durante la mostra è stato cortesemente

messo a disposizione da: Francesco Cremona, collezione “Cremona”,

Colleferro, Roma.

Thanks for any help,

Matt Crypto 15:03, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

:I don't actually speak Italian, but I know Latin and I can sort of read it. Want me to take a stab at translating it? =P —Keenan Pepper 05:56, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

:: Go for it; it's better than what I've got! :) — Matt Crypto 21:11, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

:::OhMyGosh! If you trust me I can do it, but my main field of interest is Classical Greek... Just give me a day and let me summon a mathematician or engineer... Where should I post the translation?- εΔω 11:38, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

:::: Thanks, it'd be very kind of you. I guess an appropriate place would be here, so that the "question" gets "answered", as it were, but feel free to post it any place, and I can copy it here. — Matt Crypto 13:22, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Hello! Please note that as a native Italian speaker, I usually translate only from English into Italian. However, I hope that the following draft will be a better source than a babelfished text. Best, --BrokenArrow 14:05, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

:OMI-Nistri cryptographic machine

:Italy; around 1939; OMI

:This cryptographic device is regarded as the Italian response to the Enigma; it features the same keywheel-based mechanism as the German machine, differing by its external appearance, rather bulky weight, electrical power supply (both AC and DC) and greater complexity in the rotors' structure. The text can be printed on paper tape, thus speeding up encoding, decoding and proofing operations. Text typing is made easier by an electrical motor that drives the mechanical parts.

:The critical limitation of the device was in the wiping contacts between the rotors: Over time, mechanical wear and dust build-up caused poor electrical contacts that severely limited the device's reliability. However, it should be remembered that all devices sharing the same principle of operation are affected in a limited way by the same problem.

:The machine was used only occasionally by the Italian armed forces; its cypher was broken by the British intelligence in February, 1940. It was officially put out of commission on September, 1941 and remained available on the civilian market for several decades.

:Measurements: Machine only, 37 x 42 x 17 cm; With carrying suitcase, 43 x 48 x 23 cm. Weight: Machine only, about 20 kg; with suitcase and accessories, about 27 kg. The exhibited specimen is shown by courtesy of Francesco Cremona, “Cremona” collection, Colleferro (Roma).

:: Many thanks for the translation! — Matt Crypto 20:04, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Which is correct?

Where able I try to help on the Reference Desk and the Help desk.

or

Where able, I try to help on the Reference Desk and the Help desk.

Thanks.--◀Puck^talk▶ 17:56, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

:I may have answered my own question. According to Comma (punctuation), it should be the second form since it is an introductory clause. Correct?--◀Puck^talk▶ 18:01, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

::Actually, it isn't a clause, because it doesn't have a finite verb. Unfortunately the example of an introductory clause at Comma, "Once upon a time, I didn't know how to use commas" isn't a clause either. --Angr (tɔk) 18:05, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

:::If I were to say, Where I am able, would that be an example of what you are talking about? Would that get a comma?--◀Puck^talk▶ 18:22, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

::::Yes to the first question, and I suppose so to the second question. I've never worried much about punctuation; I just do what feels right. --Angr (tɔk) 19:11, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

:::::That's probably a good way to look at it, but there have been times I've been reading something and a glaring mechanical error in something like spelling or punctuation has spoiled what would otherwise be good writing. It's kind of like a guitar player with one string just slightly out of tune. It bugs me when I see other people do it and I'd like to not have people feel the same when they read my stuff. Maybe I worry too much about what other people think. I guess my mother didn't give me enough love as a child or something.--◀Puck^talk▶

:::I changed the comma article to say "introductory words and phrases", which IS correct and of which both this and the Once Upon A Time are examples. Elf | Talk 21:26, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

When I copyedit, I place a comma after the following introductory words, phrases, and clauses:

• Items that have no grammatical connection to the sentence, e.g., "Of course, Tom didn't know it was going to rain."
• After an adverb unless it is followed by the word it modifies, e.g., "Currently, all positions are filled."
• After a prepositional phrase of four or more words.
• After an infinitive phrase, e.g., "To raise enough money, Sarah had to sell all her jewelry."
• After a participle phrase, e.g., "Looking for the lost child, Jim knocked on every door in the neighborhood."
• After an adverb clause, e.g., "Before Jenny left home, she made sure her cell phone battery had a full charge."

This is merely my personal guideline that I follow to help standardize an article. Wayward 00:02, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

::I believe the actual proper sentence would be, "Where I am able to help, I try to help ..." I don't think it's technically acceptable to leave the subject, the helping verb, and the direct object of a clause (66% of its total words) implied, but it flows fine, so I'd say go with it. And use the comma, unless there are already too many around it. --69.154.179.63 00:17, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

:personally, I put a comma behind everything whose expected location is somewhere else, and so was moved to the front for emphasis. That includes everything in your list except the first example (which is more like an interjection, see Dangling modifier for the analysis of "hopefully" in this regard) and the participle phrase, which requires a comma for another reason. Circeus 16:07, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

• Use a comma after an introductory clause or phrase. Take it from an old writing professor and Rules for Writers, 5th ed., by Diana Hacker. That's the way it is for standard English writing.

• There are of course no commas in speech. Linguists value speech more than writing, and that's fine. I agree that speech is primary, writing definitely secondary. However, this question, I believe, is about writing. Halcatalyst 03:04, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

• A short and funny essay [http://www-personal.umich.edu/~jlawler/punctuation.html on punctuation] by Lewis Thomas. --BluePlatypus 09:59, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

• In sociology contexts in terms of addictive behaviors I've heard the term enabling used. But that's more providing the means to do something that just ignoring it. I didn't immediately find any useful Wikipedia article's relating to either though. - Taxman ^Talk 19:50, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

How about let something run/take its course, let things drift/slide/rip, be negligent, be remiss? (From my [http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Dale_Lexicografie Van Dale] dictionary Dutch-English.) ---Benne ['bɛnə] _(talk) 20:40, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

: Would acquiescing fit the bill? JackofOz 21:30, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

If you're looking for a technical term, you might try posting on the Science board, or finding a website devoted to sociology. Conversational wordings very rarely sync up well with jargon. --69.154.179.63 00:21, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

:*I suppose you could say that "enabling" is jargon, but the word also has a very important common use. Unfortunately, neither Wiktionary nor dictionary.com are any help, so I'll tell you what I know.

:*Many people are addicted to one thing or another. Family members or others are often caretakers. Often, they are engaged in a suble interpersonal dynamic wherein they subconsciously encourage the addictive behavior in order to meet some deep-seated need of their own. This is called "enabling" in the clinical psychology community. As a layperson, I know this term, and so do many others. Halcatalyst 02:49, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

How about codependency ? StuRat 03:26, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

=January 14=

Does anybody know what the difference between the spelling of globalization and globalisation are? both bring back matches in google (50 million and 18 million respectively). Is one a US or one a UK spelling? In fact there are a whole lot of words that (to the best of my knowledge) be spelt with either a z or an s in this sort of construction e.g. liberalism.

Any thoughts on this would be helpful, Thanks.

:"Liberalizm"? That's not valid in any variety of English. -- Arwel (talk) 13:20, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

:Let's put it this way: American dictionaries define "globalisation" as the "British variant" of "globalization". Presumably British dictionaries return the favo(u)r.- Nunh-huh 07:41, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

:: Maybe some dictionaries say that, but I don't think it's that neat. (Dictionaries are not the unalterable truth that most people seem to assume, but merely what one person thinks or one group of people agree is the case - just like Wikipedia really.) Both variants are found wherever English is written. Given that the Z version apes the actual pronunciation, I would wager that it predated the rise of a distinctively American spelling. I'm not talking about this word in particular, but all words ending in -ise/-ize or -isation/-ization. JackofOz 07:59, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

::: I'd say the -ise/-isation spellings are virtually unknown in the U.S., except by people who have reason to encounter British writing a lot. But unlike most other American spellings (color, center, etc.), -ize/-ization is not restricted to the US. Dictionaries from Oxford University Press, for example, always recommend -ize/-ization. Angr (tɔk) 08:03, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

::::the reason is, I assume, that Greek -izein is written with a zeta? dab (ᛏ) 08:06, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

:::::I suppose. I should point out that Oxford does recommend analyse as opposed to American analyze, and in this case the Greek word {{lang|grc|ἀναλύω}} doesn't have any sibilant consonant at all. --Angr (tɔk) 08:32, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

From the OED:

[I]n mod.F. the suffix has become -iser, alike in words from Greek, as baptiser, .vang.liser, organiser, and those formed after them from L., as civiliser, cicatriser, humaniser. Hence, some have used the spelling -ise in Eng., as in French, for all these words, and some prefer -ise in words formed in French or Eng. from L. elements, retaining -ize for those of Gr. composition. But the suffix itself, whatever the element to which it is added, is in its origin the Gr. -izein, L. -izare; and, as the pronunciation is also with z, there is no reason why in English the special French spelling should be followed, in opposition to that which is at once etymological and phonetic. In this Dictionary the termination is uniformly written -ize. (In the Gr. -iz-, the i was short, so originally in L., but the double consonant z (= dz, ts) made the syllable long; when the z became a simple consonant, (-idz) became -iz, whence Eng. (-aIz).)

The following are illustrations of some of the recent uses of the suffix: 1591 Nashe Introd. Sidney's Astr. & Stella in P. Penilesse (Shaks. Soc.) p. xxx, "Reprehenders, that complain of my boystrous compound wordes, and ending my Italionate coyned verbes all in ize." 1611 "Florio, Inpetrarcato, Petrarchized." 1618 J. Taylor (Water P.) Journ. Scotl., "I haue a smacke of Coriatizing." 1682 D'Urfey Butler's Ghost II. 177 "Ralpho+takes the Tongs+and snaps him by the Nose+surpriz'd, To be thus rudely dunstaniz'd." 1796 Coleridge Lett. I. 209 "We might Rumfordize one of the chimneys." 1833 Blackw. Mag. XXXIV. 533 "It is a taste that, to coin a word, insignificantizes everything -- unpoetizes nature." 1840 New Monthly Mag. LIX. 492 "Tandemizing, cricketizing, boatizing, et omne quod exit in izing, is not to be carried on without a considerable expenditure." 1858 Sat. Rev. V. 264/2 "He has no fear of Tower-Hamletizing the land." Ibid. VI. 203/2 "To Perkin-Warbeckize a pretender is the best, because not the most spirited, policy." 1861 T. L. Peacock Gryll Gr. viii, "Arch-quacks have taken to merry~andrewizing in a new arena." 1866 Sat. Rev. 10 Nov. (L.), "If a man+is funny, and succeeds in Joe-Millerizing history, he pleases somebody or other." 1876 Preece & Sivewright Telegraphy 164 "Of the first class [Preservation of Timber] the three best known processes are: (a) Burnetising, (b) Kyanising, and (c) Boucherising." 1881 Mahaffy in Academy 23 Apr. 295 "She does not Irvingise Shylock." 1885 J. C. Jeaffreson Real Shelley II. 192 "The troop of nakedized children rushed downstairs." 1894 Westm. Gaz. 21 Mar. 7/3 "These instruments, before they are used, should always be strictly anti-septicized." 1897 A. Lang in Blackw. Mag. Feb. 187 "To do this is not to Celticise but to Macphersonise." 1897 Westm. Gaz. 28 July 6/1 "The word 'Klondykised'. has been coined to express the conditions of persons who have caught the mania [for seeking gold at Klondyke].+ The effect has been to 'Klondykise'. nearly all the people of the town." 1898 L. A. Tollemache Talks w. Gladstone 114 note, "It [the passage] is, as it were, Canning Gladstonized." Wayward 09:15, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

I have checked on google but to no avail.

Saw it in a Q+A in a uk paper with a quirky response.. "Being a politician" - there must be a proper word for it surely? Rondolpho --195.92.40.49 13:50, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

:Avoiding the question? Though I suppose responding to students using the Socratic method would fall under the same terms, and clearly isnt avoiding the question. GeeJo 15:24, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

::I agree that evasion is the behaviour and is also possibly the intention but does this style of evasion have a specific name? Thanks for the interesting link though195.92.40.49 15:42, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

:I didn't find the answer to your question, but I did find this at MIT [http://start.csail.mit.edu/]. It's pretty cool. Just for fun, ask it what Wikipedia is.--◀Puck^talk▶ 15:56, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

::Or this: [http://start.csail.mit.edu/startfarm.cgi?query=What+is+the+airspeed+velocity+of+an+unladen+swallow%3F What is the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow?] chocolateboy 11:25, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

:Ratiocinatio [http://rhetoric.byu.edu/figures/R/ratiocinatio.htm] is the best I could find for pretentious verbiage fans. This though is a rhetorical term and suggests someone arguing with themselves and who likes the sound of their own voice; so we are back at politicians. If you want someone to argue with ELIZA may be of interest. MeltBanana 16:27, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

::In your effort to disparage "pretentious verbiage fans", I think you've thrown the baby out with the bathwater, and/or misunderstood the meaning of "verbiage". "Verbiage is an insulting term usually meant to disparage needlessly wordy prose". Using "ratiocination" could well replace a much longer set of words, and would thus be the precise opposite of "verbiage". Why use many words when one does the job of all of them? JackofOz 01:14, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

:"Counter-question: A question in reply to another question, a question asked by the person questioned." OED --Shantavira 19:54, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

Where did the word Ghost originate from--213.122.121.152

:Like most English words, it's of Germanic origin. It comes from Old English gāst and is related to words in other Germanic languages, like Dutch geest and German Geist. Angr (tɔk) 21:20, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

::According to one of my Dutch etymological dictionaries, it's only attested in West Germanic, but perhaps related to Gothic usgeisnan "frighten" (perhaps original meaning "ecstasy"), according to another also to Old Norse geiskafullr, "filled with fright". ---Benne ['bɛnə] _(talk) 21:30, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

::: Strange, looking up the cognate gast in a Swedish etymological dictionary, it is apparently from German (geist) via east-Frisian. The Gothic word is mentioned but not the Norse one. Maybe they're just independent words from the same proto-Germanic root. --BluePlatypus 11:43, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

Originally, it didn't have the meaning of a dead spirit, though, because it's used in such phrases as "Holy Ghost" to mean a holy spirit. In Romeo and Juliet, Romeo calls Friar Lawrence his "ghostly father", meaning spiritual advisor. User:Zoe|^(talk) 22:09, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

: On the contrary, it seems. Online Etymological dictionary states This was the usual W.Gmc. word for "supernatural being," and the primary sense seems to have been connected to the idea of "to wound, tear, pull to pieces." The surviving O.E. senses, however, are in Christian writing, where it is used to render L. spiritus, a sense preserved in Holy Ghost. Modern sense of "disembodied spirit of a dead person" is attested from c.1385 and returns the word toward its ancient sense. Most IE words for "soul, spirit" also double with ref. to supernatural spirits. Shakespeare certainly used it in the "dead spirit" sense as well, see Hamlet. --BluePlatypus 18:35, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

In French the Future Simple for BOIRE, it is buvr- or boir-? Which is more Correct?

:je boirai, tu boiras, etc. --Benne ['bɛnə] _(talk) 21:19, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

does BUVR- work? I thought that was the one my teacher used?

:My dictionary ("The Canadian Dictionary, Concise Edition", from 1962) shows only the forms Benne gives. A Google phrase search on "je boirai" finds 21,400 hits while "je buvrai" has only 142. I don't know if there are French-speakers who consider it correct, but it doesn't seem like a choice a teacher would make, except perhaps if it's a dialect form and the teacher speaks that dialect. --Anonymous, 15:48 UTC, January 15, 2006.

::None of my French grammars or dictionaries show the other form. I also checked the Dictionnaire québécois d'aujourd'hui, but that one also gives the regular form. Perhaps you mean the imparfait, which is "je buvais"? I can hardly imagine a good teacher teaching their students dialectal French. --Benne ['bɛnə] _(talk) 18:01, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

:::In french, future is generaly infinitive + -ai, -as, -a, -ons, -ez, -ont. "je buvrai" is not correct but understandable as future (and sometimes oraly used).--Coyau 18:39, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

How come when people from the U.S. go to (ex. Mexico) we have to speak Spanish, but when the people come here, they can't learn to speak english?

:The premise of this question is false; therefore the question is unanswerable. --Angr (tɔk) 21:53, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

::Why is it that Americans, when they visit Europe, hardly ever seem to make an effort to learn at least the basic expressions of the local languages ...?

::Why do we humans generalise so often? ---Benne ['bɛnə] _(talk) 21:58, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

:::Note that there are far more languages and dialects in Europe than in the US, making speaking the native language much more difficult for Americans visiting Europe than for Europeans visiting America. StuRat 04:12, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

:::: If one must indulge in this stupid overgeneralization: Why would it be more difficult for Americans than for British or other Europeans? --BluePlatypus 11:32, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

::::::I don't see how stating that there are more languages and dialects in Europe than in the US is a "stupid overgeneralization". Depending on if you include the UK as part of Europe or a separate from Europe (as many in the UK do), you may or may not have a substantial English speaking group in Europe. However, I would still say that dialects vary more in the UK, say from Scotland to Wales to London, than they do in the US. Thus, someone from the UK would have an easier time picking up the American dialects than the reverse. However, if the American visited ALL of Europe, they would have many languages and dialects to learn, while Europeans visiting ALL of the US would have relatively few. StuRat 15:31, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

:::::True. You always get a better response / are less likely to be ripped off if you at least attempt to speak the local language, even if it's only to apologise for not being able to speak the local language! -- Arwel (talk) 13:29, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

:::::: Another factor is simple psychology: With (real or perceived) superiority comes a demand for humility. A rich person is expected to be more generous than an average person. An average-weight person shouldn't complain about losing weight in the presence of an obese person, and so on. So for Americans, who are coming from a powerful and dominant culture, the bar is raised when it comes to taking interest in other cultures. It's basic human nature. The same thing also goes for the relations between colonial nations and former colonizers, or occupants. The reasoning above: "We're the bigger culture, so we shouldn't have to" sums it up well. That's exactly what the others think that Americans think, which is why they have to start from being perceived as 'arrogant' instead of neutrally. So it is precisely because English is such a major language that they have to make more of an effort to learn local ones. If you feel that's unfair, it's because you're taking that advantage for granted. --BluePlatypus 15:26, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

:Dealing in stereotypes...the people of the United Kingdom, where I reside (generally described as "English" in this singular case, rather than British, for some reason) have an equally bad reputation for not learning the language when overseas. "Say it in English, only louder" is a British catch phrase of how to address foreigners. (This largely works, except in France, where the British are all convinced that the French pretend not to understand English). British people who permanently emigrate (especially to Spain) notoriously live in English speaking enclaves and learn little of the local language. I'm interested in the basic premise, though: do people from the US really have to speak Spanish, or do they just say it in American English, only louder? Notinasnaid

::No, of course not. The basic premise of the question is false, as I said at the beginning. Most people who visit the U.S. from other countries do learn to speak some English, and many Americans who go abroad don't learn the local language, assuming that everyone there will speak English. And so long as they stick to touristy destinations, their assumption will usually be correct. Germans don't learn the local language when they visit other countries in Europe either; they speak to locals in English. --Angr (tɔk) 10:43, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

:::Yes, the premise is false, for more reason than one. Many visitors speak only English in Mexico, but if you happen to grow up alongside a Spanish-speaking minority, you end up picking up and using some. Not only is the bar higher as BluePlatypus points out, but Americans in some regions get more exposure to Spanish than people in some areas of Mexico do to English. — Laura Scudder ☎ 07:35, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

::That's true, the south-west US is heavily hispanic. If you go to a fast food restaurant there named Jack in the Box, the server will inevitably say "Welcome to Yak in the Box"...must be a mighty big box ! StuRat 08:09, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

=January 15=

We are looking for people to translate the following into as many languages as possible. Please go to the relevant Wiktionary page and place your translations there

1. anticlockwise
2. inside out
3. grid

Thanks, --Dangherous 00:53, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

:Is anticlockwise the same as counter-clockwise ? StuRat 04:07, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

::For anticlockwise, Deutsch:[http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uhrzeigersinn], Português,[http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentido_horário], Română:[http://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sens_orar%2C_sens_antiorar] and Svenska:[http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medurs] are a few. hydnjo talk 04:58, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

::: "medurs" means clockwise ("med" = with, "ur" = clock), anticlockwise is "moturs" ("mot" = against). It's the same words in Swedish and Norwegian. --BluePlatypus 11:27, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

;Hindi

• Anticlockwise: वामावर्त्त, प्रति-घटि
• inside out: उलटा
• grid: झर्झर, जाली

Note: [http://www.shabdkosh.com/ See this English-Hindi dictionary]

deeptrivia (talk) 05:59, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

The word for "emerald" appears to be "smaragd" in many languages. What language is "smaragd" from? --24.26.178.224 18:57, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

:Apparently, according to various definition sites (like answers.com etc...):

• Middle English emeraude, from Old French, from Medieval Latin esmeralda, esmeraldus, from Latin smaragdus, from Greek smaragdos.

:Well, you learn something new every day! Thanks for that question; I got to learn something new! СПУТНИК^{ССС Р} 20:27, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

::The question still remains, where did the Greek word smáragdos come from? It's certainly not inherited from Proto-Indo-European. Webster's Third says it might be of Semitic origin, related to Hebrew bāreqet. --Angr (tɔk) 20:32, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

:::The OED says it's connected with Sanskrit marakata, marakta emerald, which does make it Indo-European. --Heron 20:42, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

::::Yeah "connected with", not derived from the same PIE root as. In all likelihood it was borrowed into both Greek and Sanskrit from some original source. Maybe the original source was Semitic, or maybe the Semitic languages borrowed the word too. The word just doesn't look like a typical PIE root, or a typical Semtic root either, for that matter. --Angr (tɔk) 20:53, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

:::Ah, sorry, I missed your point there. I just checked in Eric Partridge's Origins, and he guesses that it's 'ultimately Semitic', likening it to the Hebrew root you mentioned, and to the Akkadian barraḳta, emerald. --Heron 21:11, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

:::::Not to be too nit-picky, but bāreqet isn't a root, the root of bāreqet (ברקת) is bâraq (ברק), v. to flash (lightening), at least according to [http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?word=01299&page=1 Strong's Concordance].

::::Hm, interesting. Monier Williams (Sanskrit-English) provides no etymology, Van Dale Dutch etymological dictionary points at Akkadian barraqtu < barāqu "flash, lighten". Syriac, another Semitic language, has braq for "shine, lighten, flash". --Benne ['bɛnə] _(talk) 21:23, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

• There's also the Prakrit "maragada-" --BluePlatypus 07:09, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

: It's a bit out of date, but [http://www.gutenberg.org/files/16718/16718-h/16718-h.htm] is a Mineralogia Polygotta that says

::marakta im Sanskrit (ganz wie maragd im Aethiopischen), auch asmagarba, asmajoni, apanica, lomasarara, haritasman (der grüne Stein), harinmani.—garuda im Sanscrit scheint ein sehr edler Stein gewesen zu seyn, da man ihn auch als the bird and vehicle of Vishnu bezeichnet; Wilson übersetzt ihn in seinem Wörterbuche mit emerald (Smaragd), so auch garudmata, garudottirna, garudaçmen; ob er hierher gehört, bleibt zweifelhaft, das Wort hat Aehnlichkeit mit jakut, auch mit zmerud;—marakata im Bengalischen, auch tsuni und harinmani (d.i. grüner Edelstein);—pachee soll er im Hindu heissen. In Peru (Südamerika) heisst der Smaragd pachel, pacha, was ein höchst merkwürdiges Zusammentreffen mit dem indischen Namen seyn würde. (pinga ist der gewöhnliche Name in Brasilien);—zemcrud, zamrud im Malaiischen;—smrucht im Armenischen, auch zmrroud, zmroukt;—σμαραγδος, μαραγδος der Griechen (zunächst wohl nach dem Armenischen und Aethiopischen);—smaragdus der Römer, aber nur zum Theil; der aegypticus ist der ägyptische, der scythicus der siberische (wenn er nicht Malachit ist); der bactrianus kann auch Smaragd seyn, die andern Arten waren Malachit oder chalcosmaragdus, der prasinus könnte vielleicht hierher gehören;—smiraldus und esmaraldus im Mittelalter;—smarag im Gälischen (Schottischen); amerand oder ameraud ist grün, woher vielleicht emeraude und emerald stammt, wie der Smaragd im Französischen und Englischen heisst;—smaragdu im Walachischen;—isumrud im Russischen, auch isoumrode, zmeroud, szmaragd im Polnischen;—smerald im Dalmatischen und Wendischen;—smaragd im Böhmischen, Magyarischen, Schwedischen, Dänischen;—smeraldo im Italienischen;—esmeroud, amarantsteen, smaragd im Holländischen;—esmeralda im Spanischen; esmaragdo, esmeraldo im Portugiesischen; emerald im Englischen;—emeraude im Französischen (wohl von emeraud, d.i. grün im Gälischen).

:and yes, it's in German.--Prosfilaes 18:27, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

::Vielen Dank. Thank you everyone else too. --24.26.178.224 18:57, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

=January 16=

What is the origin of this saying 'As Safe as Houses'. Look forward to your reply.

:[http://www.randomhouse.com/wotd/index.pperl?date=20010611 These folks] make a stab at it.--◀Puck^talk▶ 03:25, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

How would you define the slang use of corny or cheezy? I often attempt to teach this word to my (Japanese) students but for such an apparently simple word breaking it down to its basic meaning is really a challenge. I can't seem to get any closer than 'old-fashioned', 'pure/innocent to the point of being odd', or 'gaudy' (gaudy doesn't translate easily either though ...). Any thoughts?

And another one ... does it make sense to define ever? The standard translation for this is 'before now' which I really don't like but it may be the case that it can't be properly translated as it is really just a grammar function that allows for clarifying/adding strength to the meaning 'has such an event existed before now?' and the like.   freshgavin TALK    05:24, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

::Those are actually pretty good statements of the words' various uses. Is there any Japanese equivalent? I think the way most people learn what 'corny' and 'cheesy' are is by seeing them. Also, it might be worth mentioning that they usually have a negative connotation, because you don't respect something that is corny or cheesy. Black Carrot 07:39, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

:I wonder if, in explaining, it is worth setting these two words up as opposites of cool, if that is a familiar concept. It isn't a definition in itself, but it may help to place them in context. Actually, I don't see corny or cheesy as having the same meaning at all: corny has undertones of innocence, while cheesy has undertones of cynicism. Notinasnaid 10:22, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

:: Yes. I would describe corny as a failed attempt at being cool or clever, and cheesy as a failed attempt at being dramatic. --Grocer 18:13, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

These definitions are pretty decent, but don't let your students overthink on the definitions. Try your best to find the words used in context, and with enough readings including the word, they will learn the meanings more like native speakers do. Remembering definitions usually isn't helpful, but knowing how a word is used to convey meaning is. - Taxman ^Talk 00:42, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

:::The ones I listed translate easy enough ... I usually say 古臭い (furu-kusai, which basically translates back into English as 'Old-ish' or 'smelling old'). Just want to note that I'm trying to overburden them with the definitions, generally they want to pick up the nuance which often involves a lot more explanation and examples than just a simple definition. The problem with cheezy and corny is that the examples vary and a lot of them don't equate in the Japanese culture ... a lot of things I would regard as horribly corny are completely reasonable here. The examples I usually use for context are:

:::*Oyaji Joke (Dad jokes... as in crappy jokes that your dad is likely to say)

:::*Romantic nerds (where the 'pure to the point of oddity' comes from)

:::*Old school rap/techno (again, combines out-of-date with a kind of purity)

:::Even with those examples it seems difficult for them to understand how Brad Pitt's acting would be considered 'corny' or how many commercials in Japan are annoyingly cheezy. Cool is probably just as difficult to explain properly, the Japanese equivalent (格好いい/kakkou ii) literally means 'looks good', referring to performance or outfit (for example maybe a little closer to the concept of a 'dreamy guy') so it would sound a little strange to call your puny cousin 'cool', or when you say it meaning something is really fun.

:::Anyways, it's really one of the fun things about learning a language as radically different as Japanese or Chinese is. I've really come to appreciate the breadth of meaning of some English words, and of course come to like the pure usefulness of some Japanese words that aren't easily used in English, like 面倒くさい (pain in the ass, troublesome).   freshgavin TALK    02:13, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

• Back to corny , I would translate it as omoshirokunai (面白くない)　(not interesting), the best I can come up with. Gaudy as hade (派手), 'loud colors'. It is best describe as 'if colors were sound, the color would be blaring, loud'. But that is not an 'exact' translation of gaudy either.--Jondel 09:29, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

After explaining the meaning to my wife (using countless examples!), she finally came up with a word for 'gaudy', as in 'tacky', and it turned out to be a word I knew all along. 「だっさい」(dassai) was the word she came up with. I understand your difficulty, though, as I've always found it really hard to translate these words. 「古臭い」(furukusai) was a word I have used mostly for it. Slightly off topic, I once went out with a girl whose family name was 'Taki'. The relationship went downhill after I told her the meaning in English, which just shows you have to be careful when translating stuff (she had actually ASKED me if it had a meaning in English!) --Givnan 08:20, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

What is the effect of advertising on modern society? Advertising is a major imput on our lives but how does the language used effect this in everyday life?

:Can you explain more about why you want to know? The framing makes this sound very much like a homework question as it stands. Notinasnaid 11:08, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

::On the plus side, advertisiing increases buying and thus is a significant driving force behind capitalist economies. On the negative side, it leads to overconsumption of items of questionable value and quality, which causes depletion of natural resources, pollution, bankruptcy, and (in the case of advertising for alcohol, tobacco, and unhealthy foods and drinks) can lead to disease. StuRat 12:40, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

:::If you ask me, advertising often comes down to making people give the impression that they are in need of something they actually have no use for, by means of making them identify not so much with the product itself, but rather with the feeling that the company wants the consumer to associate the product with. More and more, advertising tends to be concentrated on creating a certain atmosphere, which has hardly anything to do with the product it's supposed to promote. -Benne ['bɛnə] _(talk) 13:41, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

: One idea that I've mulled over some times is that advertising is a pointless waste of human and natural resources, serving only to endlessly redistribute market shares from one corporation to another, not creating any value in the process. On the contrary, advertising is considered by many to even be a detriment to their quality of life. Advertising is a parasitic companion to market economy, in the sense that it is one of the elements which produces nothing of value to society as a whole. It only serves one actor in the economy at the detriment of another in what is mostly a zero-sum game. On the other hand, I have no suggestion for an economic system which is overall more efficient than the market-economic one, so I'll just have to live with it. --BluePlatypus 14:38, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

::The only thing I see helpful about ads to the consumer is that they provide information. For example, I bought my current truck, a Chevy Avalanche, after seeing it advertised and noting that the "pickup bed" can either be kept separate or combined with the cab (by removing the barrier) into more of an SUV. I thought that was a useful feature, and since I was due for a new vehicle, I bought and have used it in both the "cargo mode" and the "passenger mode" since then. While I could have gotten this info elsewhere, I wouldn't have known to look for it unless somebody "jammed it in my face" in the way ads do. StuRat 15:03, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

In Indonesian, the word for horse is kuda. Some say that this word is derived from Tamil. Is this correct> Thanks. Meursault2004 18:12, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

:Talk to User:Ganeshk. deeptrivia (talk) 01:11, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

I already did, thanks. Meursault2004 09:07, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

:"Pay-shence". --Canley 23:57, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

::How do you say patience? Like this: pa-tience (pay-shence). Perhaps in {{IPA|und|ˈpeʃɛns}}. Or did you mean in other languages? Well, tell us which language and we'll work from there. СПУТНИК^{ССС Р} 23:59, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

::: (a) I think we can assume this English-language question is about the English-language word "patience". (b) I have never heard anybody pronounce it "pa-ti-ence". It's 2 syllables, not three.JackofOz 01:07, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

:::Do you really pronounce it with the stress on the second syllable like that, or did you just make a mistake with your IPA? —Keenan Pepper 01:19, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

::::I know little about IPA, but doesn't /ˈpeʃɛns/ have the stress on the first syllable? At any rate, I've never once heard the accent on the second syllabe.

::::::(He changed it after I said that. =P)—Keenan Pepper 06:05, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

:::::In any event, it's phonemically {{IPA|/ˈpeʃɪns/}} for me; phonetically something like {{IPA|[ʼpʰeɪʃʷɨnts]}}. Not that that really matters. Canley's approximation of "PAY-shence" is pretty good, I think. --Whimemsz 05:29, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

:You're both right... I don't know what I'm doing. Just ignore me. СПУТНИК^{ССС Р} 01:23, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

=January 17=

In the phrase, il est à la maison, am I suppose to use the pronoun y or en.

and for the sentence il va à la maison, what pronoun should I use?

:I was always taught that indirect objects with the pronoun à take y, i.e. il va à la maison becomes il y va. However, il y est sounds wrong somehow, but I can't think of why. СПУТНИК^{ССС Р} 01:00, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

• il y est doesn't sound all that wrong to me, though in spoken French, I'd rather say il est là . deeptrivia (talk) 01:08, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

::Both il y est and il est là are correct, il est là being slightly more colloquial. As for y and en, the first replaces à and the second de. E.g. Il va à la maison = He goes to the house, and Il sort de la maison = He comes out of the house. - Mu 12:31, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

:::Il est à la maison - il y est. Il va à la maison - il y va. Il vient de la maison (comes from) - il en vient.

:::In each case, il is the only pronoun. Y and en are adverbs. --Harvestman 18:38, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

I'm trying to update the Bandeapart article as part of my work on the Sirius Satellite Radio project, and as part of that, I want to provide a translation of what the name means. However, my French is way too rusty, and I'm not having any luck via the search engines. I understand that it's some sort of pun or play on words of "bande à part", but beyond that, I'm lost. Can anyone translate it for me? Their site is at [http://bandeapart.fm bandeapart.fm], if that's of any help. Thanks, --Aaron 02:22, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

:It is indeed a play on words. The name comes from the French expression faire bande à part, which has several meanings. In the case of a group, it means to form a separate group. In the case of a person, it means to keep to oneself. In the figurative sense, it means to be an exception. The name is also a pun on bande, which in this context can mean both a musical band and a radio frequency. Taken as a whole, it suggests something like "A Band Apart" or "The Special Frequency", but it's difficult to find a translation that catches it all. - Mu 12:26, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

::Thank you Mu! I appreciate it! --Aaron 15:45, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

how do your pronounce gagnon?

:If it's French, it should be pronounced {{IPA|/gaɲɔ̃/}}, or roughly, gan-YONE, with a nasalized sound at the end. —Keenan Pepper 06:01, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

What's another word for "cost" which ends in "ity"? --HappyCamper 08:36, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

:Gratuity? (second usage listed in that entry) GeeJo _{(t) (c)} • 09:10, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

::Indemnity, noun: a sum of money paid in compensation for loss or injury. hydnjo talk 21:53, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Could you please let me know what is

a) the origin

b) the common usage in England in the 1930s

of the expression "greasy old man"

Thank you

Hello, I've found several IPA vowel charts (in which the exact pronunciation of the vowels in the corresponding languages is shown). These include Dutch, Hungarian and Swedish.

I want to ask if someone can post the IPA vowel charts for other languages (mainly English, Spanish, Italian and more).

Thanks - JorisvS, 17 January 2006 16:11 (local time)

:For English, it would have to be dialect-specific: the locations of the vowels are extremely different from one dialect to the next. My understanding is that Spanish vowels are rather stable across dialects (unlike consonants), so for Spanish it would probably be feasible. I don't know about Italian. --Angr (tɔk) 16:15, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

::Currently vowel tablesare created using Wikisyntax, mostly toallow links to individual sound articles. However, a standardized representation in "true" vowel tables would be nice to have, assuming links to the sound articles are still present Circeus 16:23, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

:::I assumed that what JorisvS was asking for was not tables created with Wikisyntax, but rather images of the vowel trapezoid with dots representing the positions of the vowels, like this one. Because it's an image, though, it's not possible to link to the articles of the individual sounds. --Angr (tɔk) 17:04, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

::::I understood that perfectly. What I meant was a table like that at Danish phonology#Vowels. Circeus 18:01, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

:::I've added a vowel chart for California English both at that article and at English phonology. --Angr (tɔk) 17:44, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

::::It would be nice to make an audio link for this sort of thing. Beyond my technical abilities though. Because, as was said higher up, a given IPA vowel symbol will be pronounced slightly differently across accents and languages, which is the main reason why foreigners pronunciation still sounds slightly different even if their English is virtually flawless. Jameswilson 00:03, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

What is the distinction between being a 'citizen' and a 'national'. For example, residents of the Netherlands Antilles are said to be Dutch citizens, and Netherlands Antilles nationals. Thanks if you can make it clear for me.

: Normally it's the same thing. The Dutch issue is special since the Netherland Antilles has a high degree of autonomy. The Kingdom of the Netherlands isn't the same thing as country referred to as The Netherlands, similar to how the British Commonwealth isn't the same thing as the United Kingdom. Now, the Kingdom of the Netherlands is more close-knit than the Commonwealth, but certainly less integrated than France. The French Antilles are part of France, and also of the EU. The Dutch Antilles are not part of the EU. However, the Dutch have arranged thing so that citizenship is a Kingdom issue, and so the people of the Dutch Antilles are still EU citizens. If you want you could say that the Antilles are one of three nations within the Kingdom. But it's a controversial word, and there's no agreement on how it's supposed to be used. For instance the autonomous regions of Spain are not allowed to call themselves 'nations' ("naciones"), since their constitution defines Spain as one Nation. So what it boils down to is that the meaning of the word depends on the context of the constitution and form of government of the country involved. --BluePlatypus 16:46, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

:The United Kingdom has a similar thing for people who are attached to overseas territories and ex-colonies. You can be a British national without being a British Citizen. See British citizenship. DJ Clayworth 19:19, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for those two replies. I'm still working it through though. The article on British Citizen made it clear that the issue is complex, but didn't basically explain the distinction between being a 'national' and being a 'citizen' except that there are several types of citizens, all of whom are nationals. But what IS a 'national'? Above, I used the Netherlands example not because I was really interested in Netherlands, just because I wanted to use one example to try and be clear. I think there are many, many exceptions to the generalization (which I accept) that the words are often used interchangeably. What I hope to understand is what exactly is the distinction, and how might it be put to good use. Would there be a conflict resolution benefit to allowing for 'Basque National, citizen of Spain', or 'Chechen National, citizen of Russia', or 'Russian National, citizen of Ukraine'...etc. 'Taiwanese National, citizen of China'? So I'm still looking for reference or links to a source explaining the legal distinction between a national and a citizen...Do we have a way to also post this question/discussion to the Reference Desk, Humanities page?

: Right. Diplomats are experts at utilizing the ambiguity of words, so you can perhaps use it to solve conflicts, but it can also be the cause of them; I previously alluded to the situation in Spain, which is problematic since the people of Catalonia want to be called a 'nation'. (See "Current political issues" on that page). But as the Nationality article says: Traditionally under international law and the Conflict of Laws, it was the right of each state to determine who its nationals are.. So there just isn't any simple answer. --BluePlatypus 16:25, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

:Two issues to consider here. 1) There is no neutral reference for this, since it is a matter of local law. What's a citizen in one country will be a national in another country. 2) There is also a language problem. Not all languages even have the distinction "citizen" versus "national". In German, for example, both are translated as "Bürger". As a consequence, there is no distinction between the two in German law. Then there is an additional confusion in English about the term "nation". Sometimes it means "country", sometimes it means "ethnicity", and the two are obviously very different things. Politicians often benefit from this confusion when they call some population with disputed political status a "nation" -- people will believe the group is or should be a country, when in reality they are just an ethnicity. --Chl 13:53, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

How can I increase my attention span at work, so I don't ping pong between projects so quickly.

:This is not a language question. --Angr (tɔk) 16:12, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

::Perhaps you need to find a line of work that you find interesting enough to hold your attention. StuRat 19:06, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

:I am a high school teacher at a school with a very large percentage of students with attention-deficit problems. You don't say what kind of work you do, so StuRat's suggestion could be all you need. However, for whatever reason (some say behavioral, some say developmental, some say physiological), some people do have difficulty remaining on task for any period of time and don't seem to have much ability to change this behavior. One metaphor is that of looking out a window, and having a window-shade come down every so often for varying lengths of time over which one has no control.

:There are pharmaceutical approaches, and there are self-management approaches. I'll leave the drugs to someone else to get into, but there are some strategies for managing your own attention problems (again, a lot depends on what kind of job you have). First, you can put yourself on a kind of time-check. This will take some practice (and a bit of time), but you can make a little sheet of paper with fifteen-minute time increments listed. Then, every fifteen minutes, you jot down what you're doing right at that moment. This is a kind of self-check to see if you're on-task and a reminder to get back on task if you've been distracted. At first, this is going to be very difficult to do, but in a while you may find yourself self-monitoring without the need of the time-sheet.

:One way the drugs work is by overstimulating certain parts of your brain, thus allowing the part that attends to tasks at hand to stay on track. Caffeine practically does the same thing. Many of my students, rather than take a pill at lunch, will just have two cans of cola, and this is good enough to keep them focused for the remainder of the school day without keeping them drugged into their after-school hours. Something else that works for many of them is to listen to music while they're trying to do work that requires a bit of attention (especially written work). Rather than distract them from their tasks, what music often does is distract their brains from distractions, if that makes sense, and so they are able to spend longer periods of time on necessary tasks.

:Please keep in mind that many jobs are better done by people with shorter attention spans. Active, hands-on type work may be more in your line than, say, office work in a cubicle. Also, a lot of people diagnosed with attention-type disorders have the ability to hyperfocus on certain types of tasks; if you have that tendency, find work in areas that you can hyperfocus in (computer work and accounting are two possibilities -- both require extreme amounts of attention to detail). I know this sounds like a contradiction, but hyperfocusing is one characteristic many attendion-deficit students have in common.

:Good luck. There's a lot of literature out there that you might try, such as Mel Levine's excellent Driven to Distraction. At the very least, books like this will help you understand your attentional problems better, and that has to be a good thing. --Mitchell k dwyer 15:36, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Does anyone know the origins of this expression? The meaning, as I understand it, is "don't tell me good news if it's baloney", or maybe "don't flatter me falsely". So where and when and why did blowing smoke up someone's rear end become a euphemism for giving them phony good news or flattering them? Thanks. Babajobu 17:07, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

: This [http://groups.google.com/group/alt.usage.english/msg/77bed27e697e21eb?dmode=source&hl=en usenet post] has an answer to that. --BluePlatypus 16:06, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

:: Wow. Thank you. At last, the answer. Babajobu 16:07, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

My partner used the word 'Ballywick' today. Apparently it is something that is within your domain, i.e. "An understanding of Finance is within my ballywick, however the consumption of cheeseburgers does not lie within my ballywick."

This understanding is supported by the few references I see to the word on the Internet. However, I have no idea what a ballywick itself is, and since it is such an interesting sounding word I would really like to know what it meant originally, and, if possible, why?

:It is the jurisdiction of a bailiff. Both Jersey and Guernsey are bailiwicks. That last link tells you everything. --Gareth Hughes 18:28, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Hello

I coach a lot of people and ask them to define their personal strengths or qualities e.g. creative, intiative, empathetic, proactive, determined, dynamic, open etc. They struggle to find the words and I wondered if you would have such a list. However, I am not sure if we are talking about Adverbs, or Adjectives or something else!?! Your help would be most appreciated. Thanks. Pamela (Switzerland)

:Those are adjectives. However, Wikipedia does not have such a list to my knowledge (and brief searching). Superm401 | Talk 21:19, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

::[http://cdev.concordia.ca/CnD/careerservices/selfassess/Qualities.html This] is a starter list. hydnjo talk 22:01, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

:::There are lots of possbile words in Wiktionary's English adjectives category. Thryduulf 13:10, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

: Adverbs in English tend to end in -ly. And you can make an adverb out of almost anything by adding -ly to the end of it. Your examples would become: "creatively", "initiatively", "empathetically", "proactively", "determinedly", "dynamically", "openly". Of course not all adverbs end in -ly, for instance "very". Which gets even more confusing since it has an 'adverbized' form: "verily" which doesn't mean same thing. :) --BluePlatypus 16:04, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

What are some cool words with the suffix -ology in it?

:[http://www.onelook.com/?w=*ology&ls=a Try OneLook.com]. Hermione1980 21:44, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

:Actually, [http://www.onelook.com/?w=*ology&scwo=1&sswo=1 this] is a better link. Hermione1980 21:46, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Thank you, got it

=January 18=

My girlriend, soon to be fiancee is named Stacey and I want to get a tattoo of her name spelled in Latin, the language of love, on my chest near my heart, because she is my whole world and the person I see myself growing old with, but I don't speak any other language but english. I was wondering if you could help me with this problem. Really I just want her initials on my chest which are, or will be SRT.

:There were no Staceys in Ancient Rome. And since when is Latin the language of love? You must be confused. --Nelson Ricardo 01:16, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Well...."Stacey" comes from the Ancient Greek Anastasia[http://www.behindthename.com/php/view.php?name=anastasia]. The Romans apparently had a masculine form Anastasius, so I suppose Anastasia might be a vaguely okay Latin form of "Stacey." But I don't know much about Latin, so don't take my word for it. But if you just want her initials, why do you need to know her name in Latin? --Whimemsz 01:31, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

:He apparently want's to find out her LATIN initials so he can tattoo THOSE. I mean, think about it; it's a much better conversation starter.

:*A: Hey Bruno, what's that on your chest?

:*B: My ex-wife's initials.

:*A: Wasn't your ex-wife named Stacey?

:*B: Not in Latin!

:*A: The language of LOVE?!

:*B: Apparently not!   freshgavin TALK    06:55, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

:Oh... and if anybody still cares ... Stacey is spelled Stacie in the 'language of love', as far as I know.   freshgavin TALK    06:55, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

::No. Don't do it! A tattoo of your girlfriend's name on you is a jinx!

I'm an attorney who today was informed by the United States Court of Appeals for the Sixth Circuit that I didn't prevail in a case that I litigate, United States v. McBride. In reading the court's opinion, I was struck by a metaphor that Judge Martin used that went as follows: "it's as difficult as herding bullfrogs into a wheelbarrow." I readily agree with the thrust of the metaphor but I must confess that I have never heard it used and try as I might, have been unable to find its origin. Any assistance in solving this mystery will be greatly appreciated. Steve Nolder Snolder at columbus dot rr dot com

:Perhaps a mixed metaphor. I've heard of herding cats (no pun intended) and have heard of ... bullfrogs in a wheelbarrow but have not come across the combination cited by Judge Martin. hydnjo talk 02:48, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

::I, too, like this metaphor. It sounds like one of those Southern expressions Keith Jackson would use. Judge Martin was born in Boston but spent a lot of time in Kentucky.

::Here's the full quote from [http://www.ca6.uscourts.gov/opinions.pdf/06a0018p-06.pdf the judge's opinion]:

::"Before turning to the facts of this case, we pause to comment on the state of the law since Booker. Achieving agreement between the circuit courts and within each circuit on post-Booker issues has, unfortunately, been like trying to herd bullfrogs into a wheelbarrow. The courts have particularly struggled to — and often failed at — properly applying the remedial portion of Booker along with the remedy. One murky area is what to do about the pre-Booker concept of “departures” under the Guidelines now that the Guidelines are merely advisory. This Circuit is not exempt from causing confusion in this area. One particular source of that confusion is the Court’s recent opinion in United States v. Puckett, 422 F.3d 340 (6th Cir. 2005); see also United States v. Melendez-Torres, -- F.3d -- (1st Cir. 2005). Therefore, we take this opportunity to clarify the scope of our review of sentences in light of the potential ambiguities resultant from Puckett."

::The judge is referring to the United_States_v._Booker case in trying to figure out what to do about Mr. Nolder's client, one of those fun tax protesters.

::Here's [http://www.pensiondynamics.com/newsletters/newsq100.htm an article from 2000] that talks about "transporting bullfrogs in a wheelbarrow." -- Mwalcoff 05:23, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

:::Well isn't that the cat's pajamas.   freshgavin TALK    06:58, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

::::That expression sounds very Mark Twain to me. StuRat 10:11, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

:::::That's funny. Strikes me as a bit John Travolta.   freshgavin TALK    07:06, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

I know this is a lame topic but I came across something in the American Heritage Book of English Usage ([http://www.bartleby.com/64/C001/017.html this page]) a while back that tickled me about this elementary school rule and I haven't been able to get any straight answers about it yet.

The article itself was defending the use of but at the beginning of sentences by giving an example from a respected author; in this case J.M. Coetzee.

In his youth Dostoevsky had been attracted to utopian socialism of the Fourierist variety. But four years in a prison camp in Siberia shook his faith.

After thinking about it for a few seconds I had to disagree with it ... not because the example sentence isn't correct, but because the example sentence is using a (the?) different meaning of the word but, and thus the "rule" doesn't apply here.

E.g.

1. He isn't very nice. But he has many friends. (Typical (mis)use of 'but' that makes grammarians shudder)
2. He started eating. But seven minutes later he decided to quit. (Here 'but' is a substitute for 'only' and thus there is no feeling of "incompleteness" as the former has)

Also, when I read the second sentence the rhythm and intonation change slightly as well, to reflect that 'but seven minutes' has a unit meaning as opposed to the singular grammar function is has in the first example.

Does anyone else follow me on this? I think the book is using the example incorrectly.   freshgavin TALK    07:18, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

:Yes I follow you. But I think you're mistaken. I doubt that four years in a Siberian gulag would have felt like "only" four years. (I also think prescriptive grammarians need to get a life and stop shuddering whenever anyone else speaks or writes.) --Angr (tɔk) 07:22, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

• In the 2nd example, I don't see how "but" could be a substitute for "only". "Only" introduces the new concept of a short time later, which is not equivalent to the concept of simply changing one's mind 7 minutes after starting.
• The thing with "but" is that it is meant to convey a strong contrast between two things. Despite those pesky grammarians, I can't see anything wrong with having the 2 things appearing in separate sentences rather than in 1. If that means the 2nd sentence starts with "but", so be it.
• What rule makers need to be focussing on is the incorrect use of "but" where "and" is more appropriate. Eg. "I love you but I don't have time to talk right now". The "but" unnecessarily downgrades the "I love you". The 2 concepts are not related; "and" is more appropriate here. JackofOz 08:07, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

• There are no rules of language, and certainly no 'rule makers'. It's all about what you want to say, and how you want to say it. Whether or not to use 'but' at the start of a sentence is at the descretion of the author. Yes, breaking a sentence at a 'but' can break up the flow of the text and make it more difficult to read. But not always. Also, a writer might actually want that effect. There's no right or wrong, there is only being closer or further from conveying that which is intended. --BluePlatypus 10:33, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

: No rules of language?? Where did you get that notion from? Millions of teachers, writers and ordinary folk seem to think there are certain rules. Our article on split infinitive is all about the debate about the so-called "rules". JackofOz 11:53, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

:: There are rules, and then there are rules. One definition of "rule" is "A usual, customary, or generalized course of action or behavior"; another is "An authoritative, prescribed direction for conduct". — Matt Crypto 12:02, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

:: Appeal to authority. That's because they are taught 'rules' in primary school. Most things that you learn in primary school are oversimplifications. It's easier to tell someone "this is wrong", than to explain how it doesn't convey what they intend, or how poor spelling makes reading difficult, etc. There are 'rules' in the first sense, as Crypto defines it. But there is nothing "wrong" about breaking such a rule. There is nothing wrong with intentionally using an irregularity. Or do you consider E. E. Cummings to be a 'bad' writer, since he didn't follow the 'rules'? I'm not saying people shouldn't know the regularities of a language. That's a prerequisite for being able to use irregular language effectively. But since the "rules" are mere regularities, or generalizations, trying to derimine what is "right" and "wrong" for trivial things like the above is a futile and petty exercise, in my opinion. --BluePlatypus 12:37, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

::: Whether or not your communication is still effective if you break a rule, and whether or not there are rules to begin with, are different issues. But you now agree there are rules. And I agree they are usually generalisations and simplifications - for the simple reason that most people who are taught the "rules" are school children, who can deal only with a certain level of complexity and need to understand the main principles. But learning a language at university level is a much more complex matter, where all manner of exceptions and variations and nuances and subtleties are taught and are expected to be understood. The more sophisticated and complex the entire "rule" becomes, the more context-dependent becomes the appropriateness or otherwise of any given set of words. But none of that equates to throwing the rules out and having carte blanche to say/write whatever you want. Or more accurately, you can say/write whatever you want, but whether your listeners/readers will understand you is another question. Communication is a 2-way street, so there has to be some agreement about what words and combinations of words mean - that's where the "rules" come in. And I disagree the original question is trivial, or that this debate is futile. It's what language is all about !! JackofOz 13:17, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

:::: I didn't say there are rules, I said there were generalizations. What I take issue with, is using those generalizations in the sense of an absolute "right" and "wrong". And I see no particular reason to enforce "agreement" on what words mean. All communication is imperfect to begin with. You can never convey exactly what you mean. One person might find a period before "but" annoying, another might find it highlighting a point in an interesting way, neither may be the intention of the author. Ambiguity is what makes writing an art. You simply cannot neatly divide things up into little categories, one following the rules and one breaking them. All generalizations fail at a point, and zooming in on that point and trying to focus the rule into black-and-white "right or wrong" is indeed entirely futile because your premise is a false dichotomy. In analogy, you might as well discuss how many hairs a person can retain without being considered "bald". --BluePlatypus 18:03, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

::::: I'm not sure I understand. You wrote "There are 'rules' in the first sense, as Crypto defines it. But there is nothing "wrong" about breaking such a rule." I read this as you saying there are rules, but that it's OK to break them. Now you're saying you never said there were rules. What do the quoted words mean, then? Was there another way to interpet this? Anyway, I certainly agree with you about getting too precious about the "rules", whatever they are and whether or not they exist. Effective communication is the key. JackofOz 01:26, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

:::Personally, I blame the Bible. Biblical Hebrew sentences often start with the copula, which can be translated as and or but. And older English translations of the Bible are full of sentences starting with but and and. In Modern English, conjunctions at the beginning of a major sentence are usually considered to merge it with the foregoing major sentence. In these cases, a comma replaces the full stop between them. This may seem prescriptive, but it is the way that most editors expect work to punctuated. Having said that, it is useful to have different degrees of separation:

:::# I love you. I don't have time to talk right now. [strictly correct]

:::# I love you; I don't have time to talk right now. [strictly correct]

:::# I love you. However, I don't have time to talk right now. [strictly too correct]

:::# I love you. But, I don't have time to talk right now. [often deprecated]

:::# I love you; but I don't have time to talk right now. [often deprecated]

:::# I love you, but I don't have time to talk right now. [strictly correct]

::: --Gareth Hughes 13:25, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

::::It's always reassuring to see a priest blaming the Bible. I wonder if Biblical language is also to blame for hymns that start with "and", like "And did those feet in ancient time" and "And now, O Father, mindful of the love". --Angr (tɔk) 19:53, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

But I don't see anything wrong with starting a sentence with "but". These "rules" only exist because someone, somewhere, has found a way to harvest the energy of shuddering "grammarians". So keep on shuddering. --MarkSweep (call me collect) 23:32, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

:::The reason for the biblical sentences beginning with "and"/"but" is also based on the Vav HaHipuch, as I explained in the Vav article; the vav at the beginning of a verb switches the tense, and thus results in things like "And the L-rd spoke to Moses" etc..., not "And the L-rd will speak to Moses" (a over-literal translation), where it simply means "The L-rd spoke to Moses". The same with the hymns, which are mostly based on biblical verses. СПУТНИК^{ССС Р} 01:03, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

::::As it happens, neither of the hymns I mentioned is based on a Biblical verse. --Angr (tɔk) 06:07, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Back on topic for a minute ... I agree with Angr that 'only four years' is a bit of an understatement, but that only reaffirms my claim that the quote shouldn't be used in an English Usage guide; it's ambiguous.

For those of you who are doubting the 'second meaning' of the word but, consider the phrase I am but a man. It's an old-ish use of the word, but as the quote is old (even if it wasn't, it could be meant to SOUND old) that would make sense.

The truth is, the only one that can be blamed for the whole 'but' argument/rule at all is English itself. I'm willing to bet 90% of the languages in the world contain casual word-phrases that express the idea of although or on the other hand (Japanese has at least 5 that can be used interchangeably) but for some reason in English most of them are conjunctions that can seem odd if they aren't 'conjuncting' directly related statements.

Whether the bible is the initial cause or not I don't know, but I'd certainly point at language teachers as the modern cause for increased use (myself included). My students frequently use because, so, and, and but freely even beginning paragraphs; all equivalents are acceptable in Japanese. Of course there are ways of making these correct ... e.g. Because of this incident..., but when 40 students hand you sheets that you've corrected twice already with the statement I liked it. Because it was beatiful. (not the answer to a question!) I tend to lose the will to enforce 'correct' grammar on them at all.   freshgavin TALK    06:55, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

What could be a correct translation of the German word Christengemeinde? Literally, it means "Congregation of Christians", but for some reason I have the idea "Christian congregation" would render better English. --Benne ['bɛnə] _(talk) 09:30, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

: "Christian congregation" is fine. --BluePlatypus 10:20, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

::only if referring to a particular congregation. The German term may also refer to Christendom as a whole, in which case it could be rendered either thusly, or as Church Militant. German "Gemeinde" literally translates to Oikumene, and not to Ecclesia ("congregation") dab (ᛏ) 13:56, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

:::Danke. But in this context, it means a Freikirche. It's used in the name "Aramäische Freie Christengemeinde", which I translated as "Aramean Free Christian Congregation" (see Syriacs/miniproject). --Benne ['bɛnə] _(talk) 14:12, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

:::: That seems fine, but I'd probably say "Free/Independent Aramaic Church". --BluePlatypus 15:54, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

:::::since that's probably a translation from the Aramaic in the first place, I would opt for "Aramaic Church" too. dab (ᛏ) 09:38, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

I got an invitation from Great Britain. A scientific Professor will retire and there shall be a cometogether with colleagues giving some lectures.

Now I am a little bit confused, because the term "Festschrift" is used in this invitation for the spoken and not written lectures.

(in German "-schrift" means "written").

Can you help me to brush up my English ?

Many thanks

:We have an article about Festschriften. Usually, the articles of a Festschrift are presented as spoken lectures at a conference, but gathered as written pieces in a book afterwards (from the printed notes of speakers). However, sometimes the lectures are not printed, but are still described as part of a Festschrift. You should contact the person who invited you for clarification. --Gareth Hughes 13:07, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

=January 19=

Which are the top five world languages in terms of number of people who can understand/speak them ?

:See List of languages by number of native speakers. --Angr (tɔk) 06:54, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

:::That's a good start, but isn't quite what they asked. They wanted to include people who know the language either as a native or second language. StuRat 23:50, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

::Just about everybody understands the language of love.   freshgavin TALK    07:08, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

:::Nah, according to This very desk, Latin is the Language of Love, and I certainly don't understand it. :) GeeJo _{(t) (c)} • 09:14, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

::::Latin is not the language of love. I have no idea where anyone would gte this idea. The Romance languages are dervived from Latin, so this may lead to the confusion. --Nelson Ricardo 01:11, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

:::::While I'm pretty sure GeeJo was joking, just to set the record straight, the phrase the language of love originally referred to French, because of the Anglican belief that the French accent sounds 'romantic' (POV).   freshgavin TALK    01:43, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

::::::Aye, 'twas all in fun. GeeJo _{(t) (c)} • 09:32, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

::::::: Somehow I don't think the opinion that the French accent sounds "romantic" qualifies as an Anglican belief. --Angr (tɔk) 09:37, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

:::::::: Haha oops, you got me. I should have said anglophone belief or maybe occident.   freshgavin TALK    01:06, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

:List_of_languages_by_total_native_speakers#World_Almanac_estimates might be what you are looking for. The numbers are supposed to include second language speakers. Be advised that in my experience, well-meaning editors sometimes alter information in lists such as these, so they may not actually be the figures that appear in the Almanac. --Cam 05:18, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Does anyone happen to know if there is a word in Japanese that is homophone to 'Lion'? I don't mean the Japanese word for lion, but a word in Japanese that sounds like lion. My friend Jun had trouble with my name and thought for a long time that my name was actuall Lion, but he had a really easy time saying it, despite the L (which I realize isn't always a problem in Japanese). I just hope Lion in Japanese isn't an alternate phrasing of gaijin or something. Thanks for your help.

:Well, there's ラヨン rayon, which is Japanese for raion, but that's probably as poorly known a word in Japanese as raion is in English... --Angr (tɔk) 09:42, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

::Well, hi soldier Ryan. May I call you thus ? Other words : rayon (fibre), french layon (similar to ley ?). For Japanese words, lets us find where to search, starting with the approximate prononciation [l|r][i|y][a|o]n. --DLL 13:34, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

::If you said a word that sounded like 'lion' in Japanese it would be assumed to be 'lion'. I'm not sure about your question though ... you might as well say Is there a word in English that is a homophone of 'lion'? because they use the word 'lion' in Japanese. (raion).   freshgavin TALK    23:45, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Thank you both for your responses. I knew it wasn't going to turn out to mean something really cool like "Awesome American Dude (li-) Who I Will Totally Give Twenty Bucks To (-on)", but I hoped it might have a more common meaning aside from rayon fibre or the Soviet Raion, like maybe "soup bowl" or "hubcap". I suppose we can't all have beautiful Japanese names. -Ryan

:Well, be careful what you ask for. When my mother lived in Japan she found out that her name (Marquita) sounded rather like the Japanese word for "fire wood" (makita), much to the amusement of the locals. --Angr (tɔk) 09:41, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

:I'd be pretty happy to be mistaken to have a name like 'lion'. As it is most people here think my name is 'cabin', which isn't nearly as flattering. If you REALLY want to force the issue you could always insert meaning into your name by creating a name stamp and choosing the characters for your name carefully. If you name was actually spelled the same as 'lion' (ra-i-on) you could go for a 雷音(raion, roughly 'sound of thunder'), but unfortunately for you, Ryan is formally spelled ra-i-an, and off the top of my head I can think of 雷鞍 for that, which means... uhh... 'thunder saddle'.   freshgavin TALK    17:24, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Funny you should mention it, my friend Jun pronounces the O very strongly (like li-own), so maybe he thinks I am actually like the sound of thunder. I do talk pretty loud. -Ryan

:I recommend you 雷庵 ra-i-an, employing a pseudonym-forming suffix 庵. 頼庵 "a dependable man" and 礼庵 "a polite man" can be the alternatives as they are in the same pronunciation. --Tohru 05:42, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Thank you! -Ryan

Why it's said that Japanese can't pronounce the "r" letter, replacing it with "l"? They have such names as Hirohito and many other names with "r". Thanks. 195.150.224.238 11:40, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

:It would be more accurate to say that Japanese speakers have difficulty learning to distinguish between the "l" and "r" sounds of English and other European languages, because Japanese doesn't have this distinction. The Japanese sound usually transliterated "r" in names like "Hirohito" is an alveolar lateral flap, which has some characteristics in common with European "l" sounds and some in common with European "r" sounds. --Angr (tɔk) 12:02, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

:Your confusion might also stem from English-speakers' extreme difficulty correctly pronouncing the Japanese sound that is represented in Romanization as r. Remember, that r in Hirohito is a representation in one language of the sound in another language, and it's not a fair match. In pronouncing the Japanese sound, the tip of the tongue touches the roof of the mouth, right behind the teeth -- a very different physical requirement from that of pronouncing the r in "ridiculous." In that respect, the Japanese sound is a lot more like an L or even a D sound. There is a hard D sound in Japanese, but no R or L sound, which is part of the confusion. --Mitchell k dwyer 15:18, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

::The Engrish article is an interesting read. ;-) hydnjo talk 21:54, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

:::Hollywood may also be one source of this confusion. I've seen many movies featuring 'fake Japanese people' with usually Chinese actors saying things in rather accurate English while attempting to overemphasize the Japanese weak point with lines like 'Unberrreverrable!' which would be very unlikely coming from the mouth of a real Japanese person.   freshgavin TALK    23:47, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Many younger Japanese can distinguish between r and l due to media exposure. Of course the majority can't. Also, 'hu', 'who' and 'fu' sound the same to many Japanese.--Jondel 07:28, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

:It's also worth noting that these difficulties are to do with the fact that we fundamentally hear the phonemes we have been brought up with, even though there is no "physical" difference between them - an example of categorical perception. Psychological experiments demonstrate, for instance, that asked to categorise sounds on a continuum between 'r' and 'l' (in a random order), a native English speaker will have a fairly consistent line between one and the other. That is, they will be aware that a sound is "r but quite like l", but will rarely mistake that same sound for "l but quite like r". For distinctions that aren't relevant in their native language, they will not be able to make such clear distinctions, even though they will be able to hear that the sounds are not identical.

:If I remember rightly, we initially distinguish between a much wider range of sounds, and selectively "unlearn" distinctions that aren't useful for the languages we are exposed to as toddlers (about age 2, I think), grouping them into the phoneme categories we need to tell one word from another. - IMSoP 19:41, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

At 17, how difficult will it be for me to learn a new language, knowing only English now? How do the following languages rate on the difficulty scale; Swedish, French, Norwegian, Esperanto, Icelandic, Finnish, Japanese? What are the easiest and hardest languages to learn? Thank you to anyone who responds.

:I would say Finnish and Japanese would be the most difficult of those, if only because they are so different from English. —Keenan Pepper 18:12, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

::The easiest of those would probably be French and Esperanto. But since you have Swedish, Norwegian, Icelandic, and Finnish on your list, it seems your interests lie in Scandinavia. If you learn Norwegian first, Swedish will be easy to learn to pronounce and Danish will be easy to learn to read. After you've mastered all three, move on to Icelandic, and then bite the bullet and try Finnish. --Angr (tɔk) 18:37, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

:::(double edit conflict) Esperanto is really easy to learn. I learned more Esperanto from http://lernu.net/ in two days, than I learned Spanish in an entire year. As for Norwegian and Swedish, I don't have a clue – being a native Norwegian speaker, I don't know how hard it'd be to learn for an "outsider" (also, Norwegian and Swedish are mutually intelligible languages, so you would only have to study one of them really hard, and only just a small bit of the other). I don't know about Japanese, but Finnish has a really complex grammar. Icelandic is somewhat similar to Norwegian and Swedish, but it has harder grammar (I think). Don't really know about French. Hope that helps (although someone should probably fill in for the languages I don't know…). {{mono|;-)}} Jon Harald Søby 18:47, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

::::I agree about Esperanto's ease; I used to learn Esperanto when I was ages 13-15, but lost interest because there were few "real" resources. That's the advantage of learning "real" languages; I had more "fluidity" with French in relatively less time than Esperanto, and I owed that to access to French media and speakers. With Esperanto? No easy access to speakers plus the only Esperanto film that's easily attainable is Incubus. The advantage with Icelandic, with very few speakers, is that at least there's a place where you can immerse yourself in that language. My point is that I think ease also depends upon a lot of exposure. --Chris S. 02:26, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

:::::There's quite a bit of access to text and writers of Esperanto (soc.culture.esperanto) online. There is also the online TV channel Internacia Televido.--Prosfilaes 03:07, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

:::::Yeah, I'm aware of SCE as I used to frequent that group a decade ago. But I did not know about Internacia Televido, I should check it out. Times have certainly changed! --Chris S. 03:14, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

• I can't speak for Esperanto, don't know any of it. But I'd rank French as the easiest from the English perspective. Then Swedish and Norwegian Bokmål as exactly equal, with Nynorsk Norwegian being only a tad more difficult. (a non-native would usually learn Bokmål anyway). They have a very slightly easier grammar than French , but French has a much more similar vocabulary. Icelandic is harder than the other Scandinavian languages since it retains cases (same as German in this respect), and also has fewer foreign words, making the vocabulary more difficult. Finnish and Japanese are about on-par since they're both very alien to English, but since Finnish uses the latin alphabet, I'd say it's easier, at least if you're interested in being able to read/write. --BluePlatypus 20:31, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

:: And of course, it's very individual. I wrote French had a tad harder grammar, but that's with respect to verb conjucation. OTOH, Swedish and Norwegian have a very difficult and arbitrary genders. Even native speakers make mistakes sometimes. French is easier in that resepect. Swedish and Norwegian have very difficult intonation and language melody (very difficult to master for a non-native), Japanese and Finnish are rather easy in this respect (although vowel length is vital in Finnish) and French is in-between. I'd still maintain French to be the all-round easiest. (with the possible exception of Esperanto) --BluePlatypus 20:49, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

:::If you're not sure about how much effort you're willing to put into it, you might as well start with Esperanto and see how it goes. All the learning tools are available online and you'll see results immediately. Even if you give up or you don't like it the only thing you wasted was a little time; very little effort.

:::I have learned French and Japanese and as you can imagine there is a huge contrast between the learning curves; French being rather similar to English and Japanese being rather alien. I personally prefer the latter approach because it proves much more interesting for me to have to deal with a language that has very little in common with what I am used to. Learning the Japanese language teaches you almost as much about the Japanese culture as it does grammar, so I don't really have to think conciously about learning it as much, and it keeps me motivated even when I don't see any progress.

:::You should consider Chinese too, it's at least as different from English as Japanese is. People often say that Chinese is almost impossible to learn because of the thousands of characters required to read it, and thus people assume Japanese would be easier to learn because there is less characters, but you really shouldn't listen to that. As you would expect you get over the initial shock and, in fact, learning Kanji/Hanzi for languages like Japanese/Chinese will increase your learning curve significantly; it is much more natural for the brain to think in images than in letters or words.

:::As for the fact that you're 17, I'd say that's the BEST time for you to start learning another language. It would be best for you if you could do student exchange to another country for 6 months or a year, but even if you can't, at 17 it is still quite possible for you to become fluent in a language to the level that you can't be distinguished from a native speaker. People that start learning after their 20s often don't register things like intonation or slight variances in pronounciation as well and thus may never be able to sound completely natural.   freshgavin TALK    01:05, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

:Hi, I've studied more or less all the languages you mentioned. I would have to say that the easiest are French, Norwegian (Bokmål), Swedish, and Esperanto. The hardest, as some have said above would be Japanese and Finnish. The Defense Language Institute has their [http://www.dliflc.edu/daa/dli_catalog/admit.htm own ranking]. Anyway, French and Japanese were the two languages I studied formally and I started both languages at 16. I speak French very well, but my Japanese needs a lot of improvement. 17 is a good age, you have a lot of spare time to learn. I'm 25 now, and really wish I had more time to devote my attention to Russian and German. --Chris S. 02:18, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

:: [http://www.mtholyoke.edu/~eagerchm/tutorial/attitudes.html Another ranking]. Seems to follow the general trend. Although I'd rate Spanish as easier than French. --BluePlatypus 15:43, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

::: That's not much of a ranking ... more like an informal survey. It was taken based only on the basic impression students had about learning each of the languages, probably none with any experience in actually learning the language. The teachers as well weren't necessarily teachers or knowledgable about the language that they were ranking so I don't really see the usefulness of a ranking like that.   freshgavin TALK    17:10, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

::: Trying to say whether French or Spanish is easier than the other seems kind of difficult for me. Spanish has relatively easier pronunciation while making frequent use of the subjunctive mood. French, OTOH, is the opposite. But I think that's just the tip of the iceberg. In the end, I see both as well as other Romance languages, save for Romanian-Moldovan, of equal difficulty/ease. --Chris S. 00:52, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

When I studied Swedish, I found the hardest thing for me to master was the pronunciation. The tonal qualities were hard, too, but I found some of the vowels really hard, so I didn't get very far with it. French, with its large amount of similar vocabulary to English, was easier (plus, I did it from age 11 at school), but the grammar was a little hard to master. I think also exactly because I thought that French was easy, I didn't put too much effort into it (and besides, I chose German at school, but had to study French instead because nobody else wanted to do German, so I felt a little bit of resentment, maybe?). Finnish is extremely easy, pronunciation-wise, but its grammar is very hard to master (14 cases of the noun), but I started to learn Finnish again after doing Japanese at university, as I realised that the best way to think of the endings is to treat them as postpositions (as in Japanese). The vastly different vocabulary stumped me, though, as I was studying on my own, and still I haven't had the chance to go to Finland. Japanese was easy, in terms of pronunciation, and the Kanji were not so difficult (as you notice a lot of coherence in them - they are not just meaningless pictures), but I had difficulty in the first year of my Japanese studies while I was learning the Hiragana and Katakana. That's just my own experience, though, as everyone has their own ways of learning things. Hope this helps. Givnan 06:15, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Hi over there, today I've been working on the article :de:Gärröhrchen for the German Wikipedia. I wonder if there`s an article about this thing in the English Wikipedia as well, so I could link to it? Unfortunately I don't know the proper expression for it, and all my webresearch, consultation of dictionaries etc. stayed without a result. I've also been looking for a link in the English articles Fermentation etc., but couldn't find any. Perhaps there's someone here who recognizes the picture in the German article and can either answer here what's its name in English and if there's a corresponding article, or if there is, link it in :de:Gärröhrchen? Thanks in advance, Dominik Hundhammer, 82.135.15.213 21:51, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

: Fermentation lock. Been a while since I saw one of those. --BluePlatypus 22:04, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

:: Thanks a lot and to your health :-) --82.135.15.213 22:11, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

::: :de:Gärverschluss is the German article for Fermentation lock. There is no article on the English Wikipedia corresponding to :de:Gärröhrchen that I can find - Fermentation lock kinda covers them both. Proto t c 11:27, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

::::Now both :de:Gärverschluss and :de:Gärröhrchen link to Fermentation lock ... that's not right, is it? --Benne ['bɛnə] _(talk) 17:18, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

:::::That's not a problem, assuming the article really does cover both topics - there's no requirement for two Wikipedias to divide topics the same way, so this is reasonably common. However, if it's going to stay that way the English article should really link back to both German ones, as the interlanguage links are kinda sposed to be symetrical. - IMSoP 19:44, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

=January 20=

Hi, does anyone know what this means? tvoj sej pristik letac, moj stepiknak udrok bog duvrok casti,gospodina ??? thanks.--Cosmic girl 01:20, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

:I can't help you with the translation, but [http://www.xrce.xerox.com/cgi-bin/mltt/LanguageGuesser Language guesser] tells me it's Croatian. GeeJo _{(t) (c)} • 13:21, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

:: The question header also suggests it's Croatian. Anyway, I don't know enough Croatian to decypher it, but "tvoj" is "your(s)", "moj" is "my/mine", "bog" is God (same in most slavic languages). "Gospodin" is "gentleman/mister" and "gospodina" is the genitive form. --BluePlatypus 15:30, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

so Gospodina is like 'girl'? or lady or someting? ... I wish I could know the meaning to the other stuff...but thanx anyway :D --Cosmic girl 19:46, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

:No, "genitive" means it adds a meaning of possession. So gospodina would mean something like "the gentleman's" (or possibly "[something's/someone's] gentleman;" I'm not sure how Croatian cases work). --Whimemsz 21:46, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Ohhh cool I see, I thought that word meant the female version or something. thank you.--Cosmic girl 21:49, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

: Aha, apparently "gospodin" can also means God (Gentleman = Lord, Lord = God), which is probably the meaning intended since "bog" is in there. Since it's genetive and trailing I'm guessing the end is basically ", of god". So whatever it is, it's something religious. Perhaps a blessing. --BluePlatypus 22:50, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

:O maybe! it's just a thing that a friend of mine wrote 2 me but ... I doubt he speaks croatian properly, I mean he has some knowledge of it, but I don't think he is fluent anyway.

I know I know... why don't I ask him directly? I did! but he won't tell...

the other time he said I was a bug and he was god! hahaha so I'm a little paranoid :P--Cosmic girl 00:16, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

:It sounds vaguely Slavic, but it's definitely not Croatian, believe me. I'm pretty sure it's not Serbian or Slovenian either. I checked some words on Google, no results. Probably a practical joke. --Zmaj 12:47, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Thank you Zmaj! :D --Cosmic girl 20:01, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Hello, does anyone know what this means? I don't know what language is, but it looks Croatian or Polish. Thanks. --COA 21:35, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

: Not Croatian or Polish. I'd say it's Czech or Slovak. Can't help with the translation, sorry. JackofOz 21:40, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

::Definitely Czech. Ale nerozumím česky... (but I don't understand Czech). --Chris S.

::Czech, according to http://www.xrce.xerox.com/cgi-bin/mltt/LanguageGuesser

:::Still no translation ... but a little tip : you can guess by yourself. Search for a long word in the text, as "bezpečnostních", in Google ; it returns sites like [www.abp.wz.cz] ; Then cz is the country code ISO3166-1 for Czech Republic. Now do we have categorized users for that language here ? Searching ... ... --DLL 21:33, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

:::This tells you about an american film about Evita (Peron, in Argentina), where the Halcon (falcon) brigades make an appearance . Do you want to see the film ? DLL

::::Not exactly, I'm currently looking for additional information about Argentine law enforcement agencies and tactical teams. The text talks about the Falcon Brigades, a special ops division of the Argentine Federal Police. Anyway, thanks for your help! --COA 23:14, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

:::::The section appears to use Evita as a segue into a discussion of some branches of the Argentine police, starting with the Falcon Brigades. It's a little long for me to try my hand at (my Czech is really rusty), but I can tell you that everything after "Další argentinskou policejní zvláštní" is likely to talk about other branches besides the Falcon Brigades. -- Mwalcoff 03:49, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Here you are. I have no idea about the correct police/military terminology in English, so don't take the technical terms too seriously. The text apparently comes from the Police Bulletin of the Eastern-Bohemian Region 1-2/2004 [http://www.mvcr.cz/aktualit/regiony/hradec/zpravodaj/2004/ledunor.html ].

:Argentine — the special forces

:The readers surely remember the American movie Evita, which tells a story about a part of Argentinian history, but let us take a look at it also from the perpective of special units of security forces in a more recent aspect.

:Back in 1986, the Special Operations Brigade – Falcon (Brigada Especial Operativa Halcón, Policista 11/1997) was founded under the Police Headquarters of Buenos Aires, aiming not only at suppression of international terrorism and its activities in Argentine, but also at fighting dangerous criminals. Actually, it is ready to help or give a tactical advise to policemen whenever unusual tactical situations need to be solved.

:The structure of command is as follows — the brigade is ruled by the so-called comissioner, who is subordinate to the police commander, where the comissioner is responsible among others for training and drafting. The basic training consists of three phases, two months each, which also include a sort of selective course, and a test of suitability of a candidate. After the training, the men, experts in counterterrorist combat, parachuting, diving, and martial arts, are finally engaged in one of the five combat teams, each consisting of 15 men. Every team forms an independent unit, including among others snipers and negotiators, and the whole brigade may be employed as a large intervention group if needed.

:As is the case with other similar forces, apart from its main duty it also serves to protect VIPs, usually visiting foreign statesmen. The members of this unit, which concentrates the best combatants in Argentine, maintain close contacts with other special units abroad, mainly in USA, which were already mentioned in other issues of this irregular series (LAPD SWAT, FBI HRT, DEA etc.)

:Another Argentinian police special force is the Sección de Fuerzas Especiales (SFE), coming from the Argentinian Gendermerie, Gendarmería Nacional. As in the case of France (GIGN and RAID), Italy (GIS and NOCS), and many others, where police coexists with gendermerie, also here this special unit is intended for missions in countryside and inhabitated areas, whereas the Halcón unit is used for missions in cities and their neighborhood. SFE is subordinated to the Ministry of Defence, and it was founded in 1986, in which year there were traces of operation of terrorists from Hizballah in areas near the border, in connection with drug trade as a lucrative source of revenue.

:Its tasks were thus extended to counterterrorist operations, missions in jungle, in-depth (???) reconaissance, amphibious missions, and even helicopter parachuting. Apart from this, it may cooperate or support the Falcon Special Operations Brigade in large-scale operations. For this reason, its members were sent on internship to French CIGN, which is recently renowned for rescue of hostages from an A300 Airbus in Marseille in December 1994, apart from this the Sección de Fuerzas Especiales keeps close contacts with their Spanish colleagues from GEO (Policista 11/1996).

:Before an Argentinian policeman-genderme may join this unit with 44 members, he must attain the rank of sergeant, and serve at least 5 years of duty, of course he must be in an excellent physical condition, and pass a collection of psychological and physical tests. These include a swimming test, as well as running, shooting, and others. The subsequent training takes 6 months, and it is subdivided in two periods (three months each), it also includes a parachuting training apart from the already mentioned skills. This half year, which only 20% of the candidates manage to pass, is not the end of the story, it is followed by a trial period of 8 months, during which each candidate is appointed an instructor, who is one of the senior members of the unit.

:The unit consisting of 44 men is divided in two operative sections, each of them is further subdivided in two groups (grupo de intervención), which in turn consist of two operative teams. A section with 22 members is mission-ready on guard for 24 hours of a day, including two snipers, and other special staff, including the GEDEX pyrotechnical squad. This system enables the unit to intervene in any part of the country from its base in Ezezia in 24 hours. The size of the unit is planned to increase to 100 men, due to recent increase of terrorist activities in Argentine (attacks on Jewish representatives).

:Their armament is quite diverse because of their specific tasks, ranging from SIG Sauer P 226 handguns, many versions of HK MP5 machine-guns, to SIG Sauer SSG 2000 sniper rifles.

Here, "Policista" is a monthly of the Ministry of Interior of the Czech Republic [http://www.mvcr.cz/casopisy/policista/ ]. Hope this helps. -- EJ 19:32, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

BTW, DLL: I suspect that you had troubles finding a Czech speaker only because you looked at a wrong place. The ISO 639-1 code for the Czech language is "cs", it is not the same as the ISO 3166-1 code for the Czech Republic. -- EJ 20:04, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

::Thanks a lot! --COA 23:42, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Can it be argued that the French language had made a effort in trying to make itself sound good?

French (unlike English) has an official body, l'Académie française, to rule on what is and isnt correct usage. I suggest you have a look to see if there are examples where they have disallowed/allowed new words or modified the grammar, specifically because A sounds better than B (to French ears) - look at concepts such as euphony, elision, etc. Jameswilson 00:23, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

=January 21=

What is the difference between a Close central unrounded vowel and a Close front rounded vowel? The sound clips sound exactly the same to me. And I fairly recently heard from a native speaker what WP is calling the first one, and it sounded much more like the "oo" in the word "good" (in other words, more "u," more grunt-like) than the posted clip. Side question: Do minute linguistic differentiations, such as between between "central" and "front" really exist in the real world? Zafiroblue05 05:44, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

:The names alone tell what the difference is; they describe the position of the tongue within the mouth as well as whether or not the lips are unrounded. You may find more information at vowel, but basically close means that the tongue is up close to the roof of the mouth. Central and front refer to the horizontal position. Front means the tongue is towards the front of the mouth. An example of a front vowel in English is the /i/ or "eeeeeee" sound. A back vowel would be the /u/ or "oooooooo" sound. Central is somewhere between these two points. Stick your finger on your tongue when you pronounce these sounds to give you an idea. Also, the vowel article I mentioned has a visual reprensentation of what I'm talking about.

:I am assuming that you are a native English speaker, if that is the case then these vowels are not native to you. Since these vowels are not native to you, you tend to approximate to a vowel that is already native to you, like the Near-close near-back rounded vowel in "good." And to answer your question, yes these "minute linguistic differentations" do really exist in the real world. Russian is one example (though the front vowel is unrounded). --Chris S. 08:52, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

::Inhaling while making an articulation is a less intrusive way of feeling where in the mouth your tongue is than sticking your finger in your mouth. The air coming from outside is relatively cold on your tongue, allowing you to feel it without having to acccommodate a finger in your mouth.

::There is also an acoustic reason why the front rounded vowel sounds so similar to the central unrounded vowel: the second formant of central vowels is lower than that of front vowels, but at the same time the second formant of rounded vowels is lower than that of unrounded vowels. So both the front rounded vowel and the central unrounded vowel have slightly lower second formants than a front unrounded vowel (the ee sound of fleece), the former because it has lip rounding, the latter because it is central but has no lip rounding. --Angr (tɔk) 16:45, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Hi folks! Does anyone know how to get four tildes (for signing my posts here) on a Japanese style computer, without copying and pasting the ones down below? My computer has a tilde above the zero, but when I press 'shift' and 'zero' I just get a zero. For now, I'll just copy and paste as usual, but if anyone can help.......Givnan 06:24, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

:If it's not SHIFT 0, try ALT 0 or CNTL 0. StuRat 06:42, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the advice but that didn't work either...Givnan 10:30, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

::Then try combos, like SHIFT ALT 0 or SHIFT CNTL 0 or ALT CNTL 0. StuRat 12:22, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

:There's a long list of special characters under the edit box. Among them is a tilde, which you have to click four times. – b_jonas 11:25, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

:If you've got a UK keyboard, it's SHIFT # GeeJo _{(t) (c)} • 13:18, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

: Don't you have [http://en.wikipedia.org/skins/common/images/button_sig.png this button]? --BluePlatypus 15:56, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

It's a Japanese keyboard, sorry, and I ned to SHIFT and 3 in order to get #, so I can't SHIFT and #. And thanks, I found the button in the list of actions above the edit box. Cheers everyone.--Givnan 16:35, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

:Which means that the icon for signing in that list is rather - uh ? - unergonomical ? Please someone take a look at the problem, or let's open a special page to discuss the matter. --DLL 21:13, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Similar problem with spanish keyboard. User:AlMac|^(talk) 00:37, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

:How about shift + '^', the second to the right of '0'? --Tohru 06:40, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

"~"? Yes! That worked! Thanks! I've got one of those IBM laptops where the mouse is a red dot in the middle of the keyboard and it's really fiddly trying to copy/paste stuff! Saved a lot of time! --Givnan 07:36, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

I intend to learn Esperanto (I only speak English at the moment and have barely studied another language), but there are no real-life courses and very few books to help me. Which online resources could you recommend to me? I'm already looking at [Lernu.net Lernu] and [http://www.cursodeesperanto.com.br/bazo/index.html?en Curso de Esperanto], but I'd really like something that has longer audio courses I can listen to, to aid in pronunciation. Thanks. Taiq

:Audio courses are hard to find, but look into the email correspondance courses where you can mail in your homework and get corrections. It's a pretty good motivator. There's links there from lernu.   freshgavin TALK    01:11, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

=January 22=

Image:Globe of letters.pngWe are looking for people to translate the following into as many languages as possible.

Please go to the relevant Wiktionary page and place your translations there