Wikipedia:Reference desk/Miscellaneous#Flashes from Zen Vision W

File:Belize_on_the_globe_%28Americas_centered%29.svg

Obviously, this isn't the best map, and Belize has nothing to do with this, but I'm working with what I have right now. If you have a better map, great. I want to chart the route the bark Beta took from Drammen, Norway, to Maui, Hawaii, from 1880 to 1881. The only info I've found so far, was that it was around 15,000 nautical miles (I think, that could be wrong), it left Drammen on October 27, 1880, traveled through the North Sea, then the Atlantic, traveled down towards Cape Horn of South America, but took a shortcut through the narrow Strait of Magellan, traveled up to Chile for provisions in Valparaíso, then headed straight to Maui where they arrived on February 18, 1881. I want to approximate this route on this or a similar map, but I'm not sure how to calculate it to the closest approximation or how to even figure it out. ChatGPT can't figure it out either. Any idea how to approach this problem? Viriditas (talk) 02:05, 4 May 2025 (UTC)

:There are other known dates if that helps. The Beta made it through the Strait of Magellan to the other side around December 25, 1880. Viriditas (talk) 02:13, 4 May 2025 (UTC)

::We'd need the ship's logbook for an accurate determination of it's route. We can't do much better than assuming that, while in the open seas, the ship followed segments of a great circle, being the shortest route between points on a globe. Take a map of the Earth in gnomonic projection, centred on, say, Bogotá, and draw the shortest sea route from Drammen around Cape Horn to Maui on this map (so large portions of this route are straight lines on the map). Then use suitable map projections to display this route on a map of any desired type, like a hemisphere of the globe in orthographic projection as above (with the ports of departure and arrival both almost on the edge). Since the dominant directions are more north—south than east—west and cross the equator, a reasonable approximation can also be based on loxodromic navigation, the commonly used method before navigation by chronometer became feasible. Just use a Mercator map instead of a gnomonic map.  ​‑‑Lambiam 07:31, 4 May 2025 (UTC)

:::There are world maps of lighthouse locations. 19th Century sailors would prefer to divide a long voyage into straight legs whose ends could be confirmed by sight of a lighthouse. This suggests a way to estimate a likely route, though you must limit it to lighthouses that were operational in 1880 - 1881. See Lists of lighthouses. Philvoids (talk) 08:09, 4 May 2025 (UTC)

::::Thank you, both. But wasn’t the Cape Horn route well known and traveled by the 1880s, with all the trade between the Kingdom of Hawaii and Europe by that time? I was under the impression the route should be easy to find. Viriditas (talk) 08:11, 4 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::Kuykendall (1953) indicates that this was a seasonal mail route in the early to mid-19th century for letters between Hawaii and Europe. Viriditas (talk) 08:49, 4 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::The route was well known, but that doesn't make it easy to find. The sea looks pretty much the same everywhere. PiusImpavidus (talk) 19:36, 4 May 2025 (UTC)

::::::Apologies for the confusion. I'm talking about finding the route to draw a line on a map on my end for an article about the subject, not the ease of navigating the route. Viriditas (talk) 00:25, 5 May 2025 (UTC)

::::It is not implausible the ship sailed by Madeira or the Canary Islands and next the Cape Verde islands, but otherwise the ship either had to more-or-less hug the coastlines (the west coast of Europe, the coast of Brazil from Recife to Rio de Janeiro and the coast around Cape Horn) anyway, or, between Rio de Janeiro and Cape Horn and on the segments leading across the equator, cross a wide expanse of ocean without a lighthouse in sight.  ​‑‑Lambiam 09:29, 4 May 2025 (UTC)

::Great circles are shortest, loxodromes are easier. Navigating by loxodrome, you only have to keep track of direction; on great circles, you have to keep track of two factors out of direction, speed, latitude and longitude. On this voyage, the difference in distance is small. Astronomical navigation is nice, but depends on seeing the stars (or at least the sun). From Drammen to Spain in late autumn and through the Strait of Magellan and along the southern Chilean coast, clouds are all but guaranteed.

::The Strait of Magellan is a shortcut, but the frequent headwinds and limited room for tacking don't make it very convenient. The alternative is worse though: the Drake Passage is one of the roughest seas on earth. It's almost impossible to pass westbound by sailing ship and if you succeed, you want to turn north ASAP, but how do you know you passed it if you can't determine your longitude under overcast skies? The Strait of Magellan is just safer. Similarly along the Chilean coast up to 47°S, the open ocean may be slightly faster, but is very rough, so one could opt for the fjords instead.

::So, great circles or loxodromes approximating the shortest route, with some deviations for more convenient winds or to avoid dangerous waters. Drammen to Finistère has variable wind, mostly from the west. One could tack or just wait a few days for the wind to turn; much easier and only takes a little time.

::According to Den Helder weather station (data available from KNMI), the wind was on 27 October 1880 easterly, first weak but increasing to a wind pressure of 15 kgf/m². I think that's 15 m/s in modern units. In the night to the 28th, the wind turned south and remained strong, from late evening on the 28th until the morning of the 29th the wind was SW, slowing to 6 m/s, but in the afternoon the wind turned NNW and increased to 24 m/s, a strong gale. During the following night, the wind turned W and slowly weakened. I assume that by then the ship had left the area.

::From Finistère to the Costa de la Muerte the wind gets slightly more convenient, wind direction is even better towards the Canary Islands. Then passing Cape Bojador, once the point of no return for sailing ships along the Western Saharan coast, the NE trade wind and ocean current pick up and push the ship to the doldrums near Fernando de Noronha. High temperatures in the interior of South America in the southern summer cause a low-pressure area, turning the normal SE trade winds to NE, helping the ship to near Porto Alegre. After passing the southern horse latitudes, the winds turn mostly west (not too bad) and pick up, as the ship nears the Strait of Magellan. The wind is variable, but mostly westerly, in the strait, but after that the ship can turn north. Strong westerly winds make it hard to head for the open ocean straight away, so one hugs the coast to Valparaiso as winds gradually turn south. Valparaiso is also convenient for resupply. Follow the SE trade winds, but one may wish to stay slightly NE of the great circle route. Cross the doldrums again near the Galápagos Islands, then turn WNW (better than NNW on the great circle from Cape Horn), using the NE trade winds to Hawaii. It's about 16000 nautical miles, barely more than the absolute shortest route, and mostly broad reach.

::If you can find a diary of a traveller or, even better, the official logbook, that would be good, but otherwise you can't get a much more detailed description than my guess above. PiusImpavidus (talk) 19:35, 4 May 2025 (UTC)

:::Thanks for putting so much time into that. Viriditas (talk) 22:48, 4 May 2025 (UTC)

::::{{ping|PiusImpavidus}} I forgot to note, this route was traveled by at least five known ships from 1880 to 1883: Two ships, the Beta (1880) and the Musca (1880), left from Drammen, Norway; three ships, the Cedar (sometimes spelled Ceder, 1881), the Ioloni (1882), and the Ehrenfels (1883), left from Bremen, Germany. My understanding is that they all took similar routes. I wonder if any of these logs are available. The Bremen article says "Norddeutscher Lloyd (NDL), founded in Bremen in 1857, became one of the world's leading shipping companies." Another book I'm looking at says they reduced the transit time from 4-6 months to only 2 using steamship propulsion, which other articles say began in 1870, but likely didn't take off until the late 19th century? This question dovetails with another article I've been working on and off concerning pineapple mania, which was said to diminish with the rise of steamship transportation, which made the pineapple accessible to everyone instead of a luxury item. In any case, the steamer Ehrenfels took two months to travel from Bremen to Kauai, which saved a lot of lives, but a measles epidemic onboard still killed around 50 people, mostly children. Viriditas (talk) 23:47, 4 May 2025 (UTC)

{{od}} {{ping|Viriditas}} are we talking about the barque Beta built [https://www.sjohistorie.no/no/skip/993051/ in 1864] as [https://www.clydeships.co.uk/view.php?year_built=1864&builder=&ref=53652&vessel=SIR+JOHN+LAWRENCE Sir John Lawrence]? Are you intending to write an article? Mjroots (talk) 08:30, 5 May 2025 (UTC)

:Thanks for that. There's a lot of conflicting and hard to find info, so it's not clear that it's the same ship. [https://www.norwayheritage.com/p_ship.asp?sh=beta1 You can see another version here]. That Beta is said to be 846 tons rather than the 879 grt in your Beta, but I'm not sure that's meaningful. Maybe you can look into it? Very little is known abut that ship. Whereas, there is much more known about the German ships. I couldn't access the sjohistorie.no link. Viriditas (talk) 08:56, 5 May 2025 (UTC)

::{{Re|Viriditas}} Try accessing sjøhistorie via the link at WP:SHIPS/R#Country specific sources. Enter Beta in the search box, then look for the entry under "Bark Beta bygget 1864" (7th one down for me). Mjroots (talk) 09:24, 5 May 2025 (UTC)

:::Ah, yes. That's it. I think you found her. Viriditas (talk) 09:27, 5 May 2025 (UTC)

= May 11 =

Hi. Why are American stadiums, unlike European ones, all without coverage? Thanks. 37.159.35.32 (talk) 09:08, 11 May 2025 (UTC)

: Your premise seems to be incorrect. See :Category:Covered stadiums in the United States. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 09:41, 11 May 2025 (UTC)

:American stadiums tend to be domed when the climate justifies it (too hot or too cold) and/or when they can afford it. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 11:53, 11 May 2025 (UTC)

::The only covered stadium I can think of in the UK (I stand to be corrected here) is the Centre Court at Wimbledon. Alansplodge (talk) 18:19, 11 May 2025 (UTC)

:::No 1 Court there does as well. Also, the Millennium Stadium in Cardiff has a retractable roof. --Antiquary (talk) 19:43, 11 May 2025 (UTC)

::::Okay, thanks. Three rooved stadia in a nation notorious for wet weather. Alansplodge (talk) 21:18, 12 May 2025 (UTC)

::Even in instances where a dome could in theory be afforded and the weather would seem to justify it, a stadium might eschew a dome specifically due to the inclement weather making for more interesting television and being part of the team's and region's identity. See: New Highmark Stadium. Amstrad00 (talk) 13:40, 12 May 2025 (UTC)

:::Similarly, Lambeau Field, though it hasn't always worked to the Packers' advantage. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 14:23, 12 May 2025 (UTC)

::A few more European covered stadia can be found in List of covered stadiums by capacity: note that of the 118 stadia worldwide that are listed, 42 are/were in the USA. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.2.101.226 (talk) 00:18, 13 May 2025 (UTC)

= May 12 =

Hello there, after reading this article on non-fungible token, is there a reason on why there is no culture section about this page? Even though NFTs are a new technology, please explain on why the cultural impact is not included on this article? But for this, do NFTs have a culture, since art is considered culture? And is there a philosophy about NFTs and other cryptoart? 205.155.225.249 (talk) 18:43, 12 May 2025 (UTC)

:A section on the cultural aspects of Non-fungible tokens would have to have text based on published Reliable sources that discussed this specifically, at some length. Are there any such sources? Wikipedia cannot create or accept material that amounts to Original research or even synthesise material together from existing sources to reach new, previously unpublished conclusions.

:If you can indeed find appropriate sources, you are welcome to create a new section on the article's talk page and leave suggested text along with details of and/or links to the sources. (As an IP user [i.e. one without a Wikipedia Account] you won't be able to create a new article section and enter text etc. in it because the article is currently Semi-protected). {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.2.101.226 (talk) 19:18, 12 May 2025 (UTC)

:: It seems like a legitimate topic for a section; for reference, here are some potential sources:

::* {{cite web |title=NFTs in sport and culture: Artists, consumers and club reputations at risk from rise of crypo assets, MPs warn - Committees - UK Parliament |url=https://committees.parliament.uk/work/7038/nonfungible-tokens-nfts-and-the-blockchain/news/197847/nfts-in-sport-and-culture-artists-consumers-and-club-reputations-at-risk-from-rise-of-crypo-assets-mps-warn/ |website=committees.parliament.uk |publisher=UK Parliament |language=en |date=11 October 2023}}

::* {{cite web |last1=Kemp |first1=Joseph |title=The Gray Areas of NFT Culture |url=https://waysof.umbc.edu/the-gray-areas-of-nft-culture/ |website=waysof.umbc.edu |publisher=University of Maryland, Baltimore County}}

::* {{cite web |last1=Lin |first1=Zih-Ying |title=The effect of culture on global NFT investor attention |url=https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0927538X25000332 |website=Pacific-Basin Finance Journal |pages=102696 |doi=10.1016/j.pacfin.2025.102696 |date=1 April 2025}}

::* {{cite web |last1=Cole |first1=Jordan |title=The Impact of NFTs on the Digital Art World |url=https://blockapps.net/blog/the-impact-of-nfts-on-the-digital-art-world/ |website=blockapps.net |date=17 April 2024}}

::* {{cite web |last1=Behnam |first1=Tiffany |title=The Impact of NFTs on the Art Industry |url=https://pastel.network/the-impact-of-nfts-on-the-art-industry/ |website=Pastel Network |date=19 October 2023}}

::*{{cite web |last1=Omose |first1=Ikhalo |title=The Role of NFTs in Promoting Deaf Art and Culture: How Non-Fungible Tokens are Supporting the Preservation and Promotion of Sign Language |url=https://www.unspokenasl.com/aslblogs/the-role-of-nfts-in-promoting-deaf-art-and-culture-how-non-fungible-tokens-are-supporting-the-preservation-and-promotion-of-sign-language/ |website=Unspoken Language Services |date=16 October 2023}}

::* {{cite web |title=Impact of NFTs on Art & Culture |url=https://www.mishcon.com/news/impact-of-nfts-on-art-and-culture |website=Mishcon de Reya LLP |language=en |date=8 May 2025}}

::► There's plenty more

::--136.56.165.118 (talk) 06:55, 13 May 2025 (UTC)

:::I still want more details about this culture of NFTs. What its like similar to Chinese, Japanese, or Korean culture? 205.155.225.249 (talk) 18:15, 14 May 2025 (UTC)

::::That sounds like a seriously flawed comparison. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:16, 14 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::How can it be flawed? 205.155.225.249 (talk) 20:13, 14 May 2025 (UTC)

::::::Trying to compare national cultures with millions of adherents and which go back thousands of years. NFT's have been around for barely 10 years, and are probably of no interest to anyone except those who have invested in them. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:02, 15 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::::I agree with you, NFTs are relatively new. 2600:1700:78EA:450:75E5:23D1:5B65:DBB4 (talk) 04:55, 16 May 2025 (UTC)

= May 14 =

This is a weird one. I am a huge fan of peach-colored sunsets. And when I say huge, I mean, my two favorite things in life are San Francisco burritos and peach-colored sunsets. But they are somewhat rare, and even stranger, difficult to capture with photographs. We had one tonight where I live, and of course, I didn't get a photo. We maybe get a peach-colored sunset once a month, perhaps more, I don't know, but it's rare. I also noticed that the light doesn't last as long as other kinds of sunsets. As I was staring at the sunset, the peach seemed to fade immediately, which was odd. Not only can I not find an answer to this, but it's almost impossible to find a good photo. Are cameras not able to capture this color for some reason? Viriditas (talk) 10:49, 14 May 2025 (UTC)

:I google "peach colored sunset" and several examples turned up. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 11:32, 14 May 2025 (UTC)

: "Peach" as a color can be subjective, and sunset colors tend to transition among yellow/orange/pink, with "peach" being ephemeral. 136.56.165.118 (talk) 17:50, 14 May 2025 (UTC)

:: P.s.: You can make your own [https://www.freepik.com/premium-ai-image/photorealistic-image-peachcolored-sunset-serene-beach-captured-with-wideangle_85943077.htm (e.g.)] --18:06, 14 May 2025 (UTC)

:{{Edit conflict}} Color perception can be extremely subtle and somewhat subjective, and is still not fully understood. Matching directly perceived colours by indirect means, whether inks printed on paper, pixels on a screen or chemicals in a camera film, is difficult and rarely completely 'accurate' (whatever that would mean).

:It's particularly difficult to reproduce effects created in air by dust, water vapour and sunlight in a completely different medium. During a sunset, certain parameters like the exact angle of the sunlight through the atmosphere relative to the observer, the density, temperature and path length of the air it's passing through, and the presence, degree and nature of any water vapour and dust, will change from moment to moment. (See also Sunset#colors and Atmospheric optics.)

:A similarly fleeting sunset phenomenon you might like to look for is the Green flash. As someone with a lifelong (60 years) interest in astronomy and related subjects, I've seen this exactly three times, despite always looking for it when the conditions are right. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.1.170.37 (talk) 17:55, 14 May 2025 (UTC)

::Come to Hawaii, you'll see the green flash a lot. All you need is clear skies on the horizon and a bit of added elevation. None of the images up above depict the peachy sunset I'm talking about. It's more of a yellowish-greenish-pink, is the best I can describe it. Apparently, this is not classically peach, so part of the confusion is trying to find the right words. Looking elsewhere, I see it is known as minted peach or seafoam peach, but I still don't know if that's correct. Viriditas (talk) 21:44, 14 May 2025 (UTC)

:What colour is a peach? HiLo48 (talk) 23:49, 14 May 2025 (UTC)

::Yellow, pink, red, whites, orange, gold, etc. However, the kind of peachiness I'm seeing has touches of green, and this is apparently unusual. Most of the so-called peach sunsets are pinkish, and that's not what I'm talking about at all; we get those all the time. I'm getting the sense that I might be perceiving the world differently than most people. Viriditas (talk) 00:25, 15 May 2025 (UTC)

:Here on the outskirts of Melbourne, Australia our sunsets are often impacted by bushfire smoke and dust. The smoke can be from a serious fire nearby, or far away. (Up to several hundred kilometres) Today we have controlled burns nearby. (about 10 kms away). All these affect sunsets, in diverse ways, also depending on intensity of the smoke and wind direction. The dust can also be from a local source, or from hundreds of miles away. I could not count the range of colours we see in the sunsets. Some look peachy. HiLo48 (talk) 00:38, 15 May 2025 (UTC)

= May 15 =

Could anyone on Wikipedia describe on what is social media about and what their culture is like in modern times? How could social media be different than other subcultures in general? Can this have an effect on global world? Alternatively, would culture of social media include holidays, food, clothing, rituals, and media? Does this influence thinking? And for this, how can social media have an impact on national and local cultures, like India, Japan, Russia, South Africa, Sweden, Malaysia, China, and Mexico? Does culture have relavancy? 2600:1700:78EA:450:4537:9DB6:C80C:63DD (talk) 09:57, 15 May 2025 (UTC)

:Is this another of your homework questions? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 11:37, 15 May 2025 (UTC)

::No, this is not. 2600:1700:78EA:450:2406:5A80:A2E8:410D (talk) 16:37, 15 May 2025 (UTC)

:Yes, I'm sure there is someone on Wikipedia who could write a book of the necessary length to cover such diverse and complex questions. 207.11.240.2 (talk) 12:50, 15 May 2025 (UTC)

:I think this user was previously blocked. (Compare Special:Diff/1111211428 and Special:Diff/1290524651.)  ​‑‑Lambiam 14:17, 15 May 2025 (UTC)

::@Lambiam Hello there, that isn't me. It was someone else, this IP range changes periodically. Please take a look at there: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/2600:1010:B07E:C890:19BA:95A:4786:A68B

::And I never made these edits, it was from a mobile IP range. 2600:1700:78EA:450:2406:5A80:A2E8:410D (talk) 16:35, 15 May 2025 (UTC)

:::And this is shared by several users, I might be the one who added this [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?diff=1111211428]. But these range of IP address aren't me. And I never edited using this IP range in 2016-2019. And most of these edits from IP range do not belong to me. Here: [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log/block&page=User%3A2600%3A1010%3AB000%3A0%3A0%3A0%3A0%3A0%2F40] 2600:1700:78EA:450:2406:5A80:A2E8:410D (talk) 16:46, 15 May 2025 (UTC)

::::So can you explain the fact that you added the exact same content today:

:::::{{color|darkred|In 2021, it was announced that the library named "Ocean Sea Public Library," the largest library in Asia, would open in Hong Kong with new variety of literary works and a museum connected.}}

::::as did another editor in the 2600:1010:... range, likewise geolocating to the Bay Area, with the same egregious separation of an existing reference from the referenced statement? Transtemporal channeling?  ​‑‑Lambiam 19:20, 15 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::The same content was added in order to see if this content goes unnoticed and undetected for a while, and to see that if this kind of edit would last more than 2 years. That is it though. Transtemporal channeling would be a coincidence. 2600:1700:78EA:450:75E5:23D1:5B65:DBB4 (talk) 03:49, 16 May 2025 (UTC)

::::::It's refreshing to see trolling admitted to. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 04:38, 16 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::::Again, the IP range blocked, [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/2600:1010:B000:0:0:0:0:0/40]

:::::::Was someone else from a different location, not me, because I stopped editing from this range after 2022. And all of these edits unrelated to libraries and Hong Kong, are not me. Since this shared range geolocated to various locations in this country, instead of the same location. 2600:1700:78EA:450:75E5:23D1:5B65:DBB4 (talk) 04:58, 16 May 2025 (UTC)

::::::::2600:1700:78EA:450:4537:9DB6:C80C:63DD (now blocked for block evasion) made edits yesterday, 15 May 2025, on these pages and sections (times in UTC):

::::::::* 09:45: Wikipedia:Reference desk/Language#No Navajo language classes? Why is this not visible on United States

::::::::* 09:46: History of libraries § 21st century

::::::::* 09:47: Wikipedia:Reference desk/Language#No Navajo language classes? Why is this not visible on United States?

::::::::* 09:48: Wikipedia:Reference desk/Language#No Navajo language classes? Why is this not visible on United States?

::::::::* 09:49: Wikipedia:Reference desk/Language#No Navajo language classes? Why is this not visible on United States?

::::::::* 09:51: Wikipedia:Reference desk/Language#How could a new technology shape the English language?

::::::::* 09:51: Wikipedia:Reference desk/Miscellaneous#Social Media Culture

::::::::* 09:57: Wikipedia:Reference desk/Miscellaneous#Social Media Culture

::::::::The one but last was the creation of this section. So you are claiming the edit at 09:46 was made by another editor than those at 09:45 and 09:47? It defies belief.  ​‑‑Lambiam 08:29, 16 May 2025 (UTC)

= May 16 =

{{hat|reason=Block evasion, see above|closer=Lambiam}}

Alaska, as an article, tells me about the facts and the history of Alaska. But this state Alaska has a culture very unique, which is Alaska Native culture, which is different from Native American cultures, due to climate and linguistic differences. Aside from native cultures and climate in ecology, how is Alaska still different from lower 48, in terms of modern culture? What are the brands and companies that are only found in Alaska, and not found in lower 48? Could Alaska be separate from Canada? 2600:1700:78EA:450:75E5:23D1:5B65:DBB4 (talk) 06:05, 16 May 2025 (UTC)

{{hab}}

= May 18 =

Requesting assistance with copyright. Is it acceptable to keep 2-3 sentences quote from external sources. (if not, you can edit and reword it) For a few years I have been at the site and collaborating, I have not understood what is a "safe" amount of quotes to shove on a page. Would appreciate a fresh cross-wiki perspective. Thanks. Gryllida (talk, e-mail) 12:30, 18 May 2025 (UTC)