Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football#Player tables: why light-blue.3F

Anyone else notice that Soccerway's layout and format has been changed? I can't find stats about players there :( --SuperJew (talk) 06:27, 4 June 2025 (UTC)

:It’s either broken or under development or a new version has been released too soon. Whichever, it’s showing nothing, no teams, no players, no results!--Egghead06 (talk) 06:31, 4 June 2025 (UTC)

::Yup I noticed the search feature isn't working at all. I managed to get into players profiles by searching on Google the name + Soccerway and then at least I could get the birthdate which I needed for listing on current national squad. --SuperJew (talk) 07:23, 4 June 2025 (UTC)

::It now shows player's clubs for me, but not seasons and matches. Oof. Geschichte (talk) 07:24, 4 June 2025 (UTC)

::As someone who's used Soccerway... quite a lot, this is annoying - hopefully it gets fixed up soon. Why do things have to change xD /j RossEvans19 (talk) 14:08, 4 June 2025 (UTC)

:A new Soccerway X account has popped up acknowledging the issues and saying that they will be fixed shortly - hopefully it's not too long before it's back to the former levels of functionality. Ligaventura95 (talk) 16:10, 4 June 2025 (UTC)

::Does look like they are going through a website upgrade during the off season. Govvy (talk) 21:36, 5 June 2025 (UTC)

:::But it's not off season in Northern Europe, North America and Japan :p Geschichte (talk) 10:17, 6 June 2025 (UTC)

::::Oh my word the new site looks awful, and it's also got incorrect stats (including saying Kyrell Lisbie has 2 apps for Peterborough in 2024-25 season, even though he joined after the season started... GiantSnowman 11:39, 6 June 2025 (UTC)

:::::: Yep, I agree with all above. Soccerway being bad right now is getting on my nerves... just realized I basically can't work without it. Paul Vaurie (talk) 09:21, 8 June 2025 (UTC)

::I've noticed that before... It missed how many minutes the footballer has played at a specific level... ⋆｡˚꒰ঌ Clara A. Djalim ໒꒱˚｡⋆ 08:53, 14 June 2025 (UTC)

:::Good grief it looks bad. Hopefully it's just case of a summer reworking and not a permanent change. REDMAN 2019 (talk) 11:38, 16 June 2025 (UTC)

seems a little silly to me to change a players nationality across every single seaosn they played. if they declare for another country at age 35, its silly to then edit previous teams season page to pretenf that player was always from the new coutnry. it should show the country they were from at the time of that season. eg, they declare for nigeria in 2025 - that shouldnt effect articles from 2005, 2009, 2017 etc. the player was english then.Muur (talk) 06:38, 11 June 2025 (UTC)

:Agreed, it would be anachronstic otherwise. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 15:50, 11 June 2025 (UTC)

:Personally I agree with what you said (also it just creates a lot of retroactive pressure on editors to back-update). The last line though isn't necessarily true (while in some cases entirely true like people who acquired nationality, especially like China and Qatar have been doing recently). He could've been a dual nationality while the English nationality was the predominant one from a football POV. The strongest point though is that sources from that time would have the nationality he was most associated with at the time. --SuperJew (talk) 16:31, 11 June 2025 (UTC)

:::my specific example is ricardo santos, the porutguese player, just played for cape verde - and someone went and changed 15 years of career pages to say he was capre verde since a teenager.Muur (talk) 22:03, 12 June 2025 (UTC)

:::: Yep, I agree. It should be what their sporting nationality in the moment, we shouldn't change it retroactively. Paul Vaurie (talk) 20:57, 13 June 2025 (UTC)

::::I also agree. And this happens a lot with footballers. There are many nationalist POV-pushers out there. Geschichte (talk) 09:16, 16 June 2025 (UTC)

I’d like to re-open a discussion regarding how we handle honours for players who are not included in a competition’s official matchday squad (e.g., UEFA Super Cup, FIFA Club World Cup), but are registered squad members who receive medals - with verifiable evidence such as official records, photographs, or videos. Under [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Football/Archive_132#Re-posting_this_because_it_was_archived_but_it_wasn't_entirely_finalised_and_I_want_this_debate_to_come_to_a_final_and_definitive_conclusion_so_that_we_can_avoid_anymore_future_issues_regarding_players'_honours current consensus], such honours are excluded unless the player was part of a matchday squad. However, I believe this approach overlooks the broader nature of a player’s contribution. A player’s impact isn’t limited to minutes on the pitch or bench. They train, support, and prepare alongside their teammates, contributing to the squad’s overall performance. They share in the pressure, the sacrifices, and the commitment that lead to a title. When a medal is awarded, it serves as formal recognition of that contribution. This perspective aligns with FIFA and UEFA's practice of allocating a generous number of medals to clubs, many of which are awarded to non-playing squad members. These gestures acknowledge that football is a team sport, and that success is built on the efforts of the entire squad, not just those who appear in a match.

There are several concrete examples of this:

• Jesús Vallejo was a registered Real Madrid squad member but not part of the nominated squad for the 2017 FIFA Club World Cup. Nevertheless, he was with his team, [https://www.gettyimages.com/detail/news-photo/jesus-vallejo-of-real-madrid-celebrates-with-the-trophy-news-photo/894782408 received a medal during the ceremony, and celebrated with the trophy in hand] [https://www.gettyimages.com/detail/news-photo/players-of-real-madrid-celebrate-with-the-trophy-after-the-news-photo/895005930 alongside his teammates].
• Gareth Bale was not in the nominated squad for the 2016 UEFA Super Cup, but as a registered Real Madrid player, [https://x.com/GarethBale11/status/763364572304670720 he received a winner’s medal and proudly shared it on social media]. The same applies to Cristiano Ronaldo, who was not in the matchday squad but displays the winner's medal in his personal collection at the Museu CR7.

Rigidly excluding such honours may result in an incomplete or misleading representation of a player’s career, especially [https://www.realmadrid.com/en-US/the-club/history/football-legends/gareth-bale when clubs themselves list these achievements on official platforms]. If a player was part of a club’s registered squad at the time the title was won and officially received a medal, it seems reasonable to include the honour in their record, provided it can be verified and is done in a way that avoids misleading readers about the player's on-field contribution. This can be accomplished by including it alongside other honours, accompanied by a footnote or asterisk for context.

This discussion is not about inflating honours, but about fairly acknowledging that success is built on the efforts of the entire squad. Your thoughts - whether in support, opposition, or offering alternative suggestions - are most welcome and appreciated.Tkotw12 (talk) 16:38, 11 June 2025 (UTC)

:If you have a source to say that a player has a medal then that honour can be added. Not sure what we can do other than that for players who are not in the matchday squad? We don't need footnoes or astericks, just sourcing. EchetusXe 19:17, 11 June 2025 (UTC)

::I appreciate your response. So, for example, based on [https://www.marca.com/en/football/real-madrid/2017/12/16/5a35905122601d0b3b8b464a.html this source], can we include the 2017 FIFA Club World Cup in Jesús Vallejo's honours? Or are Getty Images photos alone sufficient as a source? Tkotw12 (talk) 22:20, 11 June 2025 (UTC)

:::Sure. Generally a set amount of medals are made and given to the club to distribute as they see fit. "To be eligible to receive a Championship, League One or Two winners medal, a player must have been named on the team sheet in at least 25% of the Club’s league fixtures in that season. Any medals agreed over and above those detailed above will be at cost to the Club concerned." - there are likely similar rules for each competition. If a club wishes to give a medal to a player then they can do so. If you can find a reliable source to show they did then why wouldn't you add it to their honours list. Before the 1978 FIFA World Cup, only the 11 players who finished the final game were awarded medals so if you got substituted off then no medal for you. Happily, FIFA ruled that would-be medalists would recieve their medals retroactively. The rules are not so stringent these days. EchetusXe 23:38, 11 June 2025 (UTC)

:As discussed with you earlier, my opinion remains unchanged.

:1. This is unfair to other players because there are many competitions, and not all competitions award medals to players who don't play. Almost every player contributes to their team, as you said, but not everyone gets a medal if they don't play; it depends on the rules of each competition. If we rely on receiving medals to add titles to players who don't play, is that fair to their opponents? – who played until the end without winning a title, and is it fair to players in other competitions?

:2. Players who didn't participate in the competition don't receive their medals at the award ceremony (because they were not there); they receive their medals at another time, so it's difficult to find clear sources to verify for all players. For example, A and B are teammates; they both didn't play and both received medals, but A has photos/videos to verify that they received the medal while B does not. There are also cases where players borrow their teammates' medals to take souvenir photos or videos, which can potentially cause confusion.

:3. People will add titles to many articles; there is no guarantee that they will add correct information because, as I mentioned above, there is no clear source, which adds to the burden of verification. Annh07 (talk) 23:37, 11 June 2025 (UTC)

::The source was found and so the medal award was verified. Whether you percieve this as fair to other players is irrelevent. An editor can't say "yes this is a verified fact, but other articles may or may not have similar facts that there aren't the soruces available to verify so we can't include it". That doesn't make any sense whatsoever. EchetusXe 23:41, 11 June 2025 (UTC)

• IMO a player should absolutely not be credited with winning a competition that they did not play in, regardless of whether they have one of the dozens of medals that UEFA or whoever has passed around. Yes, feel free to mention it, perhaps in a separate section to "honours" or footnote it clearly. If we don't do this, we end up with the nonsensical example that was given recently where "Europa League winner" was added to Antonín Kinský, despite the fact that he not only didn't play for Tottenham in the competition this year, not only was he not in the European squad, but he was actually ineligible to play, having played for another team in an early round. Black Kite (talk) 11:48, 12 June 2025 (UTC)

: I support the existing consensus of not including honours for players who were never in the squad for the competition. Talk of being "unfair" and "the players helped them get there" is erroneous: these players will have been honoured for winning that previous competition. It is a short step from there to saying players who leave the club before the Super Cup takes place should also be honoured. Spike 'em (talk) 16:02, 12 June 2025 (UTC)

:I also back the current consensus, if you are not in the squad, the honour should not be added. Kante4 (talk) 16:40, 12 June 2025 (UTC)

::I disagree. If you have a medal, and a reliable source confirms so, then you get the honour. GiantSnowman 18:20, 12 June 2025 (UTC)

::: I don't have an issue in mentioning that you have a medal, but we shouldn't suggest you actually earned it. It could just about be justified for players that played in previous rounds of a tournament; but for examples like one-off Super-Cups, Community Shields and the Spurs example above, it's ridiculous. Black Kite (talk) 22:21, 12 June 2025 (UTC)

::::I understand the skepticism around listing honours for players like Antonín Kinský in the Tottenham case, where he was ineligible to play in the Europa League. But I believe this case, rather than being an absurdity, actually highlights a deeper truth about how football clubs, governing bodies, and players themselves understand success: it is collective, not strictly bounded by the 25-man squad or who appears on a team sheet. Kinský, or players in similar positions, may have been ineligible to play, but they were still part of the team environment that won the trophy. They trained with the squad, contributed to morale, pushed teammates in practice, and lived through the season's pressures and routines. That is why clubs often award them medals (and UEFA/FIFA allow extra medals for exactly this purpose). The idea that honours should be exclusively reserved for players who were technically eligible to play overlooks how the sport actually functions at an elite level. It imposes a narrow and bureaucratic definition of contribution that contradicts the ethos of team sport. Moreover, Wikipedia's role isn't to gatekeep sporting legitimacy but to reflect verifiable recognitions. If a player has received a medal and a reliable source confirms it, that is objective evidence that the player's contribution was recognized by the team and/or organizing body. Whether that contribution came via game time, leadership, training, or behind-the-scenes influence, it's still real. Tkotw12 (talk) 23:38, 12 June 2025 (UTC)

:::::Commemorative medals are commemorative medals, nothing more. Olympic medals are very different. A cup winners medal isn’t the FA cup, it isn’t the actual trophy won by the team. Non-playing staff can get medals as well. Cattivi (talk) 09:24, 13 June 2025 (UTC)

::::::This is all unwarranted discussion that is entirely overridden by sourcing. It is entirely irrelevant whether individual editors believe a certain player 'deserves' a medal or not. EchetusXe 09:27, 13 June 2025 (UTC)

{{od}} What's the consensus on players that played in earlier rounds of the competition but weren't included in the squad for the final? I'd also like to point out that there aren't always reliable sources to confirm who "received" a medal. Paul Vaurie (talk) 20:59, 13 June 2025 (UTC)

Thank you all for your contributions. Based on the discussion, the following conclusion seems appropriate: If a reliable source confirms that a player received a medal, the honour should be included regardless of their presence in the matchday squad. The key criterion is verifiability, not personal views on fairness or merit. Tkotw12 (talk) 14:37, 18 June 2025 (UTC)

Whilst looking for stubs that aren't stubs to update talk pages, I found Franco Ponzinibio was unsourced. If anyone can find a source (Perhaps about his death, I doubt he's 110) that would be great :) RossEvans19 (talk) 16:39, 11 June 2025 (UTC)

:Fixed by {{ping|Robby.is.on}}. GiantSnowman 21:02, 13 June 2025 (UTC)

Is it necessary to have greyed out matches? and repeated results? Surely it's only necessary to only list the actual results? Govvy (talk) 08:25, 12 June 2025 (UTC)

:At that time it was the standard for season article results to have postponed fixtures in grey. Currently, the standard is to remove the postponed fixture and leave a note in the rearranged fixture to say what the originally scheduled date was, which I think is a good way of adding in the detail. Being a season article, however, there will probably be a new way of doing things dreamt up halfway through next season. Which is why there is zero consistency between different clubs and across different seasons. EchetusXe 09:34, 12 June 2025 (UTC)

::I can't see the point of it personally. It seems like another thing that can be sourced but doesn't really add much to the article. Books like whatever the Rothman's Yearbook is called these days just show the actual results of a club's season, not postponements. None of the club season articles which have reached FA status include details of postponements, although TBF a lot of them are from way in the past and such things would be a lot harder to source.... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 09:46, 12 June 2025 (UTC)

:Exactly, the matches were eventually played so it should be a single set of fixtures with a W/D/L result, and noted that the matches were originally postponed. FastCube (talk) 10:21, 12 June 2025 (UTC)

::You can just remove them. If somebody wants to then add them in as notes onto the rearranged fixtures then that is up to them.--EchetusXe 11:39, 12 June 2025 (UTC)

:::Well I removed them, however seem to have ended up with error messages on the ref list, was there not a bot that fixes that? Govvy (talk) 15:22, 12 June 2025 (UTC)

::::Your edit removed the definition of the references which are called in other places which weren't removed. The bot should fix it, but it's not immediate. You can also fix it by yourself manually, and that's the best in my opinion - take responsibility for your edits :) --SuperJew (talk) 15:41, 12 June 2025 (UTC)

What's the procedure for transfers that are happening this summer, amidst the FIFA Club World Cup? It's a bit unusual for European and other clubs to have seasons extending over 1 July 2025, which is typically when contracts expire and the transfer window opens. For non-Club World Cup teams, I assume nothing changes, but for Club World Cup teams, it's weird. Should a team go all the way to the final of the competition (on 13 July 2025), will their free transfers in/out of the club be listed in the 2024-25 season or 2025-26 season article? The problem is that summer transfers are typically seen as part of the "new" season, while in this case you might have some summer transfers being included in the "old" season, and people might look over that. Paul Vaurie (talk) 21:32, 13 June 2025 (UTC)

:In my opinion it should all be treated as part of 2024-25, with maybe a note in the new season articles saying to look at the previous for CWC signing details. Shouldn't be too complex for now, but agree might become more of a headache in the future. Crowsus (talk) 23:39, 13 June 2025 (UTC)

:: Right now, I'm seeing Trent Alexander-Arnold listed as a transfer for both 2024–25 and 2025–26 for Real Madrid, although this is a bit of a weird example. The issue here is that the Club World Cup "feels" like the new season already, when it technically isn't. Paul Vaurie (talk) 21:31, 14 June 2025 (UTC)

:I think this needs to be revisited. Due to the transfer window that was opened before the CWC, there were lots of transfers made over the last 2 weeks, which creates a few problems:

:* Including these transfers in the 2024–25 season will split up the summer transfer window across season articles.

:* These transfers are now making their first appearances at the CWC. For example, Al Ahly brought in several players that made their first appearances for the club in the CWC opener. It doesn't seem right to have them appear in the 2024–25 season.

:* There are also inconsistencies around individuals transferred. E.g. Trent Alexander-Arnold is listed as a transfer out on 2025–26 Liverpool F.C. season but transfer in on 2024–25 Real Madrid CF season. Similar situation for Dean Huijsen, Liam Delap, Pierre Kalulu, Filip Kostić, and I'm sure more will come up as 2025–26 articles are created.

:EvansHallBear (talk) 02:25, 16 June 2025 (UTC)

:: Yeah I agree, it feels weird to split summer transfers over two windows. Paul Vaurie (talk) 03:01, 16 June 2025 (UTC)

::Although it may seem odd, I would maintain the current practice, but add a note or highlight that the player was purchased for the 2025-26 season, but is already eligible for the FCWC starting in the 2024-25 season. e.g., for the 2024–25 Real Madrid season:

::

::

::Miria~01 (talk) 09:37, 16 June 2025 (UTC)

::: And you're saying also keep them on the 2024–25 article too? Paul Vaurie (talk) 09:52, 16 June 2025 (UTC)

::::Unfortunately yes, because if he gets a yellow card, goal etc. in the FCWC 2025, this will appear in the statistics section of this season article, but the information about the transfer in the article would be missing Miria~01 (talk) 10:01, 16 June 2025 (UTC)

::::Could it be that you meant the 2025-26 season? In that case, I don't think it's strictly necessary (although I personally would prefer it). Miria~01 (talk) 13:45, 16 June 2025 (UTC)

::::: No, I meant 2024–25. Paul Vaurie (talk) 18:59, 16 June 2025 (UTC)

:::Should this also be done on the outgoing transfer page? E.g. should Trent Alexander-Arnold be moved to Transfers Out in 2024–25 Liverpool F.C. season with a note that the transfer was after the conclusion of the 2024–25 EPL season but prior to the CWC?

:::It really seems a lot cleaner to say that because the 2025 FIFA Club World Cup concludes after 7/1 that it's part of the 2025–26 season. EvansHallBear (talk) 17:12, 16 June 2025 (UTC)

::::I would agree with that, as it also maintains the logic: if someone comes in in the 2024-25 season, then they must have been out in the same season at the latest. Miria~01 (talk) 20:25, 16 June 2025 (UTC)

::::Regarding the duration of the 2024-25 European season: The statistics are likely to include all matches for this season up to the final of the CWC on July 13.

::::e.g. for winning the Gerd Müller Trophy 2024 (most goals in the 2023-24 season in all club competitions and national team), Harry Kane was credited with 8 goals with the national team, including 3 goals in Euro 2024 and one of them on July 10, 2024 in the semi-finals → see [https://www.rsssf.org/miscellaneous/kane-intlg.html Harry Kane Caps - rsssf.org] (Cap 86 to 98). Miria~01 (talk) 21:28, 16 June 2025 (UTC)

:Personally, I think we should have the transfers on both 24/25 and 25/26 seasons' pages, since technically the transfers were/are done during the 24/25, but in that way I feel that we lose the informative purpose of Wikipedia, because 25/26 would be actually the players' first normal season. But also still should be listed on the 24/25 page, cause they participate in it. Leprazoori (talk) 14:26, 16 June 2025 (UTC)

:: I think perhaps the best way to go about this would be to include players on both 2024–25 and 2025–26 articles in cases where this would help provide useful information to the reader, while providing a note for additional context. However, in the case of Trent Alexander-Arnold, for example, I don't think he should be listed as a 2024–25 exit for Liverpool as Liverpool's season already ended by the time the transfer went through. It doesn't help provide additional context as Liverpool isn't in the Club World Cup. All 2024–25 seasons of different clubs don't have to line up. Paul Vaurie (talk) 20:28, 16 June 2025 (UTC)

:::I agree. Leprazoori (talk) 07:10, 17 June 2025 (UTC)

Whilst editing Chinese football related articles I came across Guilherme (footballer, born May 1991) - this is a weird situation. The page was basically blanked as the edits made by the now banned Timmy96 was said to be substandard. It's a lot to go through but surely it's not all bad? RossEvans19 (talk) 01:03, 15 June 2025 (UTC)

:[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Guilherme_(footballer,_born_May_1991)&oldid=1282178683#Personal_life "Guilherme mentioned in an interview with Gol 24 that he has a wife, implying that he's married."] might be one of the best things I have read all week. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 01:18, 15 June 2025 (UTC)

::How did I miss that?! That's fantastic xD RossEvans19 (talk) 01:31, 15 June 2025 (UTC)

::An IPv6 removed all that? Prose doesn't look too bad, but a lot of a citations don't exist or are dead... however when you have sources like [https://www.goal.com/it/notizie/calciomercato-benevento-chi-e-guilherme-estro-e-fantasia/rb7vusy46ni518lbodls2ib9r this], I feel that removing all that content is way too harsh. Govvy (talk) 11:25, 15 June 2025 (UTC)

Just bringing awareness to some sections in the above article which seem completely unnecessary/overkill for what to include in a season article, as follows: Comparing with previous season, Squad number changes and vacant numbers, Kit usage, Assists, Captains, International call-ups, Milestones, and Injuries. All my warmest wishes, ItsKesha (talk) 12:47, 15 June 2025 (UTC)

:Should all be removed (NOSTATS, trivia, pick what fits). Kante4 (talk) 12:55, 15 June 2025 (UTC)

::A hell of a lot needs removing, the starting eleven images in review, prose is fine. Yes, the all those sections you pointed out should be removed in my opinion. Even the academy stuff table could be removed. The Overall transfer activity is classed as WP:OR and should be removed and the assists table which we have a soft consensus that no assist tables should be present on season articles. Govvy (talk) 15:48, 15 June 2025 (UTC)

:::Wow, I thought there was no depth of triviality left to explore on these articles, but the table showing the number of left- and right-footed players and the variance of these figures from the previous season takes it to a new extreme....... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 16:48, 15 June 2025 (UTC)

::::I removed the assists table, but it seems there previous seasons have the same problem, I am surprised someone more ruthless than myself doesn't have a run at those articles. I'd feel I would just get told off for going near them being a Spurs fan! Govvy (talk) 10:56, 16 June 2025 (UTC)

:::::{{User|Joseph2302}} and myself removed some more. I will ping {{Ping|Phikia}} so the editor knows what is going on. Article is kind of a mess, too much info and cluttered, tough to read. Kante4 (talk) 16:53, 16 June 2025 (UTC)

::::::611 references on a season article is ridiculous, the article takes incredibly long to load in my browser. Why on earth would a "Milestones" section be necessary? S.A. Julio (talk) 01:11, 17 June 2025 (UTC)

I was wondering if the bio is promotional and glorified. Thoughts? Govvy (talk) 16:40, 15 June 2025 (UTC)

:Yes, definitely needs a clean up. GiantSnowman 16:51, 15 June 2025 (UTC)

:Is the subject noteable? EchetusXe 20:25, 15 June 2025 (UTC)

::I was having another look at this article during a tea break and frankly I've decided to send it to AfD. Cheers. Govvy (talk) 10:04, 16 June 2025 (UTC)

:::Might be worth looking at some of the other articles the user has created in a similar vein. All my warmest wishes, ItsKesha (talk) 17:45, 18 June 2025 (UTC)

List of Samsunspor presidents Geschichte (talk) 09:17, 16 June 2025 (UTC)

:What split? EchetusXe 09:20, 16 June 2025 (UTC)

:Yes. Also, List of Samsunspor seasons is a completely unnecessary fork given the current state of the article. Kaffet i halsen (talk) 10:45, 16 June 2025 (UTC)

::As I commented on the AfD, I think this type of list is valid. Svartner (talk) 01:38, 17 June 2025 (UTC)

I am curious, how can a footballer with over 100 professional league games not be that notable? Is that anyone with access to the newspaper archives look up Sydney Protheroe properly? I did have a go at WP:BEFORE, but struggled myself. I rather someone try and help before it gets deleted. Govvy (talk) 12:50, 16 June 2025 (UTC)

:I had a quick skim of newspapers.com for "Protheroe" "Rochdale" "1938" and didn't turn up anything other than mentions in match reports -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 13:53, 16 June 2025 (UTC)

::I've added some sources relating to his transfer from Rochdale to Notts County, wartime service, and also his later personal life.Paul W (talk) 19:21, 18 June 2025 (UTC)

:::Thank you Paul, that's a lot better. I certainly struggled to find stuff what you did find really does help. Hoping some other editors like what you found, maybe a positive outcome now. Cheers. Govvy (talk) 21:19, 18 June 2025 (UTC)

Real Madrid CF has been nominated for a good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. Z1720 (talk) 15:54, 16 June 2025 (UTC)

Reposted and updated version of original now archived.

As main contributor to this article, I flag up for attention of others on the project a number of candidates for the list that are already wiki-articled and known or believed to have been killed in or died as a result of circumstances brought on by the war (eg execution, in enemy captivity, effects of wounds etc) but which so far lack a reliable citation regarding their death which is preconditional to inclusion in the list. A few have no death circumstances described in the text of their article but I note have been put on category lists that suggest someone knew/believed they died in wartime circumstances. I also include those whose death circumstances are disputed - see their talk pages for further detail - and are in need of a conclusive ruling in or out.

• Josef Adelbrecht (Austria) - categorised as Austrian military personnel killed in the war. His German wikipedia article states he was killed on the Russian front NW of Moscow. Disputable death date.
• Dragutin Babic (Yugoslavia) - there is a source in Croat language but it is unclear to me it indicates manner of death
• Giuseppe Bazzeghin (Italy) - more clarity please about the circumstances of his death, understand he was killed in Venice prior to its liberation from fascist rule in 1945.
• Josef Bergmaier (Germany)
• Jozsef Eisenhoffer aka Joszef Aczal (Hungary) - also disputed death circumstances
• Bronislaw Fichtel (Poland) - disputed death date (see talk page)
• Hermann Flick (Germany) - stated to have been killed in action near Leningrad in 1944 without citation.
• Josef Fruhwirth (Austria) - categorised as Austrian military personnel killed in WWII. His article in German wikipedia has citation to an Austrian newspaper report of his death which I find unreadable, I can only make out he died on the 'Ostfront' (Eastern Front). His German wikipedia article locates his death in Russia at Khalikovo (a place that appears to have no article).
• Nikolai Gromov (Russia) - Russian language profile says he 'died at the front' in 1943 without further detail. More informative sources if found preferred.
• Gustavas Gvildys (Lithuania) - His German wikipedia article states without citation he died in Konigsberg (now Kaliningrad) when it was encircled by the Soviet forces during the East Prussian campaign in 1945. Any more definite sourcing?
• Karl-Richard Idlane (Estonia) - Death cause and death dates (both in 1942) disputable.
• Karl Kanhauser (Austria/Czechoslovakia) - German wikipedia states without citation he was drafted into the German army towards end of WWII and deployed to Yugoslavia where he was reported missing, no final year given.
• Franz Krumm (Germany) - There is a link to the German Volksbund (war graves commission) website but it does not directly connect to his details and I lack expertise to interrogate the site.
• Willi Lindner (Germany) - source in German language, not fully clear about death details
• Josef Madlmayer (Austria)
• Frank Manders (Great Britain) - Would welcome information that can definitely connect the airman who died at Sutton Coldfield to the airman of that name who is known to the Commonwealth War Graves Commission (CWGC) and is buried at Maidenhead, England. (There is a minor date discrepancy regarding his death.)
• Artur Marczewski (Poland) - his Polish and German wikipedia articles state without citation he disappeared in January 1945 following Red Army advance into Poland, where he had been working for the Germans as a factory official.
• Vladimir Markov (footballer) (Russia) - Stated in Olympedia to have died in Leningrad in 1942, which coincided with the long running siege of the city. Can evidence be found for treating him as a victim of the siege?
• Alexander Martinek (Austria/Germany) - Death date is disputable, the German wikipedia page gives this as in 1945 and cites it to the Volksbund website but the citation is not linked to a web page.
• Otto Martwig (Germany) - stated to have died in battle of Berlin without citation in German wikipedia.
• August Mobs (Germany) - said to have been killed in air raid. The External Link in the English article to the Eintracht Frankfurt archive shows a cutting from newspaper "Kicker-Fussball" which summarily states he was victim of an air raid ("Terrorangriff" in German) on Frankfurt am Main: August Möbs at eintracht-archiv.de. It remains to be ascertained if he was a purely civilian victim or happened to be a serviceman.
• Alberto Nahmias (Greece) - death circumstances disputed; his English article gives two different years of death in 1980s without source. His Greek wikipedia biography states he was arrested by the Germans in 1942 because of Jewish origins and further trace was lost, possibly because of being put to death, although also said to have emigrated post-war. Can someone find sources that settle this? The nearest named individual recorded from Greek Jews listed in the Testimony Pages of Yad Vashem is an Alberto Nachmias (sic), born in Greece, died at Auschwitz, age given as 42 but no birth or death date given. Of the estimated 6M Jews killed in the Holocaust only 4.5M are known to Yad Vashem.
• Slavko Pavletic (Croatia) - no death circumstance details given in text but has been categorised as a Croatian civilian killed in the war. In Croatian wikipedia, he is stated with citation to have been executed following Communist seizure of power in Croatia with 'date of execution' stated unknown, though the infobox gives a precise date of 27 May 1945 and death place as Zagreb.
• Kurts Plade (Latvia) - Repatriated to Germany as a Baltic German, his Latvian wikipedia article states he was 'killed' (no further detail) in February 1945 in Poznan, Poland. I note his death coincided with the Soviet siege of Poznan.
• Bernardo Poli (Italy) - Italian wikipedia indicates he died in 'an unspecified war accident' serving as an airman. Only citation in English wikipedia does not indicate manner of his death.
• Fyodor Rimsha (Russia) - Stated without citation in English and Russian wikipedias to have died in siege of Leningrad, allegation not supported by cited sources Olympedia and Russian language Profile, the latter of which states his fate after 1914 "is unknown". A citation to a recent Russian newspaper article mentions him in passing as one of three pre-Russian Revolution national players who died in Leningrad during the siege https://portal-kultura.ru/articles/history/341863-no-gorod-nash-sporil-s-nelegkoy-sudboyu-futbol-v-blokadnom-leningrade/. I have added it to the English wiki article, though I would welcome if more definite published evidence could be produced.
• Holger Salin (Finland) - No decisive death date in most wikipedias. Although Finnuser reported a newspaper report states only he was killed in an accident, his German wikipedia article states that after his last international match (1943) he "fell..in the Continuation War" [term given to Finland's hostilities with the Soviet Union over 1941-45 in concert with Germany] in '1943 or 1944'. I do wonder if he was serving in the Finnish Armed Forces though. (Accidents as well as combat killed a number of players on the list.)
• Aristotel Samsuri (Albania) - Reportedly executed in German concentration camp in Greece as a Communist partisan between 1942/1944, but was claimed by the postwar Communist regime of Albania to have escaped and survived before proclaiming him a martyr in 1981.
• Gennaro Santillo (Italy) - Categorised as Italian military personnel killed in the war but no indications of military service on Italian wikipedia. Would like to be more certain of his status (mil or civ) before adding him.
• George Scoones (expatriate Briton who played in France) - French wikipedia (not English) give him same death date in 1940 as a soldier known to the CWGC in this link: https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/2278867/george-w-scoones/ See talk page - any agreement this is likely to be the same man? Cattivi in 2024 said he found link to a French newspaper that suggest he is the same man but I have yet to receive answers to questions I have put him.
• Harry Spencer (footballer) (New Zealand, previously played in England) - There are similarities with a New Zealand soldier known to the CWGC (see talk page of article). Can someone find confirmation they are the same man? In 2022 NZFC said he was investigating but has so far not responded.
• Erwin Stührk (Germany) - disputable death date, death place given in Volksbund site not easy to ascertain as it only gives German form of name rather than its vernacular.
• Ludwik Szabakiewicz (Poland) - disputable death details, particularly date, between English and Polish wikipedia articles
• Hugo Väli (Estonia) - originally listed by Olympedia as died in Soviet camp in Siberia, the source now falls in with information he died in Tallinn in September 1944, making it questionable whether he was in Soviet captivity or died as a result.
• Willi Völker (Germany) - uncertainty about death location, identification questionable due to disputable birthplace details.
• Heinz Warnken (Germany) - German wikipedia gives him as gefallen (fallen) in 1943 but no detail of precise death date or death place.

There may be additions coming onto the list so I encourage watch this space! Others are welcome to add. Please let us know if sources are found and added into their articles.Cloptonson (talk) 20:06, 16 June 2025 (UTC)

Joey Barton has been nominated for a good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. Z1720 (talk) 22:59, 16 June 2025 (UTC)

:{{ping|Z1720}} How many articles are you planning to remove from GA status? I am still surprised you posted to remove Real Madrid from GA. Govvy (talk) 11:16, 17 June 2025 (UTC)

::{{re|Govvy}}Editors do not remove GA status: if an editor thinks an article no longer meets the GA criteria, they can create a GAR asking for consensus. Editors can still improve articles during a GAR, addressing the concerns and bringing the article closer to fulfilling the GA criteria. If no one is willing to address concerns, the article's GA status might be removed. I am currently reviewing all GAs and bringing articles to GAR that I believe require a review. Z1720 (talk) 12:29, 17 June 2025 (UTC)

Murray Wallace has re-signed for Huddersfield - the [https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/articles/c8rpd536djro BBC makes a big deal] about it being his fourth spell with the club, but as far as I can see it's only his second. Am I losing my mind? I think they're counting him going out on loan and coming back, which is bizarre. GiantSnowman 18:05, 18 June 2025 (UTC)

:Yeah if you look at his [https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/murray-wallace/profil/spieler/174099 TranferMarkt] page it looks at first glance like he's had three spells there already. I presume that's the website they've gone to for their research (I know Wiki consensus is that it isn't deemed to be a reliable source). All my warmest wishes, ItsKesha (talk) 20:10, 18 June 2025 (UTC)

::How embarrassing for BBC! The [https://www.htafc.com/news/2025/june/18/transfer--murray-wallace-joins-town/ Huddersfield Town official release] just refers to one previous spell. GiantSnowman 20:54, 18 June 2025 (UTC)

:::BBC has been going down hill for a while, they will just end up being blacklisted like the Daily Mail! Govvy (talk) 21:23, 18 June 2025 (UTC)

:::Transfermakt shows loan returns in a way that to the uniniated might look as though it's a "new spell" with a club. That is what will have confused whoever wrote the article. EchetusXe 09:39, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

:::Well the BBC article seems to state "four spells" in the title {{tq|Wallace signs for fourth spell with Huddersfield}} but later explain it correctly {{tq|joins the Terriers for a second time having spent four years with the club between 2012 and 2016 which also included loan spells with Falkirk and Scunthorpe United.}}. It's a good reminder not to rely on headers for information. --SuperJew (talk) 09:55, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

::::The body of the BBC article has been changed (it definitely referred to 4 spells when first published), but they've done half-a-job and not corrected the heading... GiantSnowman 19:12, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

Plenty have posted over the past few weeks about issues with the 'new' Soccerway - having checked on a few players' profiles today, it seems no better, with stats either having disappeared or being simply incorrect.

So, we need to plan for replacing it - what trusty databases are good for e.g. English National League / European league stats? GiantSnowman 19:11, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

:I've always found [https://fbref.com/en/comps/ FBref] to be reliable. English stats go as far down as the National League, good coverage of the Big Five European leagues & the US, and covers a wide range of other top division leagues. J Mo 101 (talk) 20:10, 19 June 2025 (UTC)