Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football/Archive 169#Academy players in club navbox

How much concern do we want to give to the distinction between the club and the team in these articles. Strictly speaking, the club is a legal entity that employs players, owns property, can be founded or dissolved etc; the team is the collective of players and perhaps by extension those who support their efforts on the pitch. The club is a member of the HyperSuperMegaLeague; the team plays in the HyperSuperMegaLeague.

So should we allow statements like "The club play in pink with orange heptagons", or "the team appointed William Shakespeare as manager"? If a competition is won, is that the achievement of the team or the club? If two competitions have been won several decades apart, is that the achievement of the club or the team (or the teams?)

Or is it just too pedantic to raise the issue, and we just conclude that the two terms have, in the football vernacular, become interchangeable?

(thought triggered by [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Gillingham_F.C.&curid=165278&diff=1278700536&oldid=1276088881 this diff]) Kevin McE (talk) 07:44, 4 March 2025 (UTC)

:Good point. I think the distinction needs sometimes to be made, although often the two are blurred. John (talk) 07:53, 4 March 2025 (UTC)

::Regardless of what is decided, one thing we should definitely avoid is "the club were founded" (or "the club were [anything else]" for that matter). The team may be plural but the club is definitely singular..... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 10:23, 4 March 2025 (UTC)

:::Not sure about that one Chris. I'd prefer Melchester Rovers Football Club are over Melchester Rovers Football Club is, referring to an undefined group of people that make up the club (or company, or political party, or ...). I'd say this is standard in British English, but American English would strongly favour is. Having said that, I've just read [http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/001874.html this article], which was interesting, but has left me none the wiser. U003F^? 12:33, 4 March 2025 (UTC)

::: Further reading suggests " British English" is too broad a brush. Let's go with some parts of the UK and elsewhere use are exclusively, other places use is or are depending on details, and other places use is (almost) exclusively. Dialects, eh? U003F^? 12:49, 4 March 2025 (UTC)

::::It depends on the context IMO. Obviously "Arsenal [i.e. the actual team of players on the pitch] are winning" is fine, but in my opinion "Arsenal Football Club [i.e. the club as an organisation] were founded" sounds wrong, and "the club were founded" sounds even more wrong. Look at it this way: in the off-pitch sense, "Arsenal Football Club" does indeed refer to an undefined group of people that make up the club. But so does "the Royal Bank of Scotland", and would you say "the Royal Bank of Scotland were founded"? I personally wouldn't say that and therefore by extension wouldn't refer to the club in that way either. But that's just my opinion...... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 13:45, 4 March 2025 (UTC)

:::::Ah, you're one of those detail types. But, yep, I would always say "RBS were" and, reading round, that is correct / acceptable / awful depending where you were brought up. U003F^? 14:56, 4 March 2025 (UTC)

:I wouldn't say it's a question of dialect, if we look at the famously Queen's English BBC: [https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/68723109] "Everton are also in the process of building a new stadium on the banks of the River Mersey at Bramley-Moore Dock, which is due to open in 2024". Pretty sure it's a corporation building a stadium and not 25 international millionaires in their 20s and early 30s. Other fields using plural on the BBC: Cambridge graduate BBC political editor Chris Mason: "Why Labour are so keen to talk about defence". [https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c877ykydx75o] James Heath, director of BBC policy, Oxford graduate: "What is the problem ITV are trying to fix?" [https://www.bbc.co.uk/webarchive/https%3A%2F%2Fwww.bbc.co.uk%2Fblogs%2Faboutthebbc%2Fentries%2F79d4179b-461c-4c55-96d4-9f0428ca823c]. Everton, Labour and ITV are all words that appear singular but are treated as plurals because the discussion is about the decisions of multiple people within them. Unknown Temptation (talk) 17:35, 4 March 2025 (UTC)

::From today's featured article blurb Seattle was the reigning MLS Cup champions and were expected to play 34 matches. Yuk! Cavrdg (talk) 09:16, 12 March 2025 (UTC)

:::From my 1950s and 60s Australian education, a team is ALWAYS a singular entity. I acknowledge that others have been taught differently. I just wish others could acknowledge that. There is no global rule. HiLo48 (talk) 09:49, 12 March 2025 (UTC)

::::{{ping|HiLo48}} - true enough, but surely Cavrdg's example where the subject is treated as both singular and plural within a single 16-word sentence can't be right.....? -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 10:23, 12 March 2025 (UTC)

:::::No, it's gruesome. but I don't look to sport journalism as the epitome of English expression. HiLo48 (talk) 23:07, 12 March 2025 (UTC)

If you're looking for something different to edit, there are now over 2,500 articles tagged as not containing significant coverage within the scope of this project. Hack (talk) 14:30, 13 March 2025 (UTC)

Not sure where this discussion topic should really go, or the process of moving disambiguation pages, but... I was looking up the aforementioned player, but the primary page for this name is an American racecar driver and fighter pilot Ray Crawford (196 views over 30 days), the footballer is at Ray Crawford (footballer) (972 views), while there is also the disambiguation page for Ray Crawford. Shouldn't the disambig page be the primary page, and the three Ray Crawford's the secondary pages? All my warmest wishes, ItsKesha (talk) 20:16, 13 March 2025 (UTC)

:Yes, sounds sensible. You want WP:RMPM for Ray Crawford → Ray Crawford (racing driver) and Ray Crawford (disambiguation) → Ray Crawford. GiantSnowman 21:57, 13 March 2025 (UTC)

I was just looking at some stats on the page, but do we really need all that? Overkill on the Liverpool article surely. Govvy (talk) 15:28, 11 March 2025 (UTC)

:Removed assists and G/A total. Kante4 (talk) 15:40, 11 March 2025 (UTC)

:: I'd say everything in the "Statistics" section apart from the first table ("Appearances") is not required. The "Goals" table, which would be OK, is actually spurious because the goals information is in the "Appearances" table anyway, and the other tables are stats overkill. Black Kite (talk) 15:41, 11 March 2025 (UTC)

:::Yeah, we definitely don't need a goals table which literally duplicates the table above but with only half the columns -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 15:55, 11 March 2025 (UTC)

::::Removed. GiantSnowman 18:22, 11 March 2025 (UTC)

:::::....and just over an hour later it's back -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 20:18, 11 March 2025 (UTC)

::::::...and now it's gone again. Further eyes welcome. GiantSnowman 21:19, 11 March 2025 (UTC)

:Why is it overkill? Goals table is redundant yes, but assist, clean sheet and disciplinary record tables are useful, shows information that cannot be found elsewhere in the appearances and goals table. Also, I don't think there is a "consensus" by two or three users saying it is redundant then simply removing all the tables instantly ChampsRT (Profile • Talk) 23:12, 11 March 2025 (UTC)

::Assists has been discussed many times on this talk page and the consensus is that it's not a verifiable stat which definition changes between countries, leagues, statisticians and can't be reliably used. --SuperJew (talk) 00:52, 12 March 2025 (UTC)

:::So we should keep clean sheet and disciplinary records? ChampsRT (Profile • Talk) 03:34, 12 March 2025 (UTC)

::::I don't see the problem with that. Some people may claim it violates WP:STATS --SuperJew (talk) 08:17, 12 March 2025 (UTC)

:::::{{ping|ChampsRT}} - are we going to see any actual prose in the article at any point to supplement the endless tables? -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 08:20, 12 March 2025 (UTC)

::::::Now it's reverse overkill, I would put the goals table back. That is kind of easier for those who have difficult with maths to read. I also believe it's applicable for MOS:ACCESS positive. Govvy (talk) 10:36, 12 March 2025 (UTC)

:::::::Agreed, probably put back goals, clean sheet and disciplinary records ChampsRT (Profile • Talk) 14:32, 12 March 2025 (UTC)

::::::::I thought "Goals table is redundant yes"??? GiantSnowman 18:59, 12 March 2025 (UTC)

::::::{{ping|ChrisTheDude}} We could add a "summary" section, to emphasise on how many assists each player or the top player has in that month. ChampsRT (Profile • Talk) 14:33, 12 March 2025 (UTC)

:::::::{{ping|ChampsRT}} - I wasn't really thinking that niche/trivial. The article desperately needs quality prose covering Liverpool's season in general, not just something as minor as assists. At the moment there's literally one sentence of prose about Liverpool's Premier League campaign. See 1921–22 Cardiff City F.C. season for an example of a club season article which has reached Featured Article status and contains high quality prose about the club's season. -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 16:12, 12 March 2025 (UTC)

::::::::My only qualms with that Cardiff FA article is the incompleteness of the results tables, the key should be below a table, normally in a slightly smaller font. Still, I don't know why you should set an historic content over recent content the same principals. There is room to have different styles for articles. No need to always be so generic. Govvy (talk) 16:45, 12 March 2025 (UTC)

:::::::::I was only using that FA example to make a point that we should be aiming for decent amounts of quality prose in season articles, not a perfunctory hundred or so words of prose and then loads and loads and loads and loads of tables...... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 16:55, 12 March 2025 (UTC)

:::::::::The alternative view is that they should also be as similar as possible so that most of them aren't so godawful to read. Seasider53 (talk) 10:27, 13 March 2025 (UTC)

:Wanted to chime in and say that we should probably nail down a project standard for what tables are acceptable and try to harmonize as many season articles as possible. I've been reverted for merely suggesting that a redundant goals & assists table doesn't belong in an article that has a measly 2 lines of prose. There's also a rush for editors to create new articles for the upcoming season that get sent back to draftspace or rejected by AfC for being incomplete (and often without any real citations), so some better pruning is needed. SounderBruce 23:31, 12 March 2025 (UTC)

::I do think that sometimes it is hard to add prose to describe statistics, maybe through match reports published? I can't really think of other ways to have longer descriptions while being cited and not redundant. ChampsRT (Profile • Talk) 03:20, 13 March 2025 (UTC)

:::There shouldn't just be prose "to describe statistics", there should be good quality prose to describe the season as a whole. Take a look at the Cardiff FA I linked above. There's five paragraphs of prose describing their Football League campaign. That's how it should be - the prose should be the main focus of the article and any tables should be additional to it. At the moment too many season articles are the other way round - they just have loads and loads of tables with a couple of sentences of prose chucked in almost as an afterthought -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 08:29, 13 March 2025 (UTC)

I also like to point out, there is a new norm across loads of season pages for a group of statistics; goals, discipline, clean sheets. Honestly I don't have anything against this, however we need to set some better formatting across the board to apply here. I also strongly suggest to put the goals table back on the Liverpool page, because for the younger audience, like my 8 year-old who looks at stats, that's a lot easier to read than the larger table. I believe it's also helpful for those with learning disabilities who enjoy sports. Some of these people with these disabilities actually like seeing statistics on wikipedia, they don't know many other places to get them. So I believe we need to consider this type of reader. Regards, Govvy (talk) 10:48, 12 March 2025 (UTC)

:The "norm" of season articles change every season and often throughout a season. There is no norm across the project. The same club will have different layouts and formats from season to seaosn unless an editor pays attention and fights for consistency, either enforcing some sort of order by updating past articles or reverting current season articles to the same as the prior season. EchetusXe 19:35, 12 March 2025 (UTC)

::I think we should set a format for club seasons to follow, which makes things much easier as to which tables or features to add into the page or not. I do believe stats is an important part of football that should be listed in each club season article, to show how much the team or the players have achieved that season. ChampsRT (Profile • Talk) 03:22, 13 March 2025 (UTC)

::: Which could be achieved by simply linking to a reliable stats source elsewhere on the Internet, with the advantage that (a) they'd always be up to date, and (b) no-one has to spend lots of time updating them every match. Black Kite (talk) 10:11, 13 March 2025 (UTC)

:::There is already a WP:FOOTY page which "sets a format for club seasons to follow". See Wikipedia:WikiProject Football/Club seasons. I agree with thoughts above though, not every page has to be exactly the same. There should be an emphasis on prose though. Stevie fae Scotland (talk) 17:26, 13 March 2025 (UTC)

::::Perhaps the MOS needs updating, which should be done through consensus - but then we need to insist that season articles stick to it, that is the whole point. GiantSnowman 14:19, 14 March 2025 (UTC)

Hi all, I'm wondering whether to include USL W League, United Women's Soccer, and Women's Premier Soccer League teams in players' infoboxes and stat tables. These are amateur leagues mostly for college students during the summer and not part of the American soccer pyramid. Most players' articles currently don't mention participation in them even in prose such as most of the now pros on [https://web.archive.org/web/20230621065600/https://www.kansascitycurrent.com/kc-current-ii this roster]. Hal Hershfelt, though, does include them as a counterexample. My inclination is that they can look misleading in infoboxes in a place where you would expect to see only pro clubs (def in favor of prose mentions though). Pinging {{ping|American Money|p=}} if they'd like to share their perspective. Thoughts welcome. Hameltion (talk | contribs) 01:31, 14 March 2025 (UTC)

:I typically include those three leagues. Stats are not as easily found which is why they're usually missed Imo RedPatch (talk) 02:03, 14 March 2025 (UTC)

::Definitely not easily found ... which to me is another reason they might seem too trivial to include. Ally Sentnor, e.g., made [https://www.uslwleague.com/racing-louisville just one] appearance for Racing Louisville (USL W) in 2023 and [https://www.wpslsoccer.com/news/2024/01/13/recap--2024-nwsl-draft at least one] (but seemingly [https://www.instagram.com/p/CeZXHO8J_Ky just] the one) for Downtown United Soccer Club (WPSL) in 2022. Hardly key info. By contrast, for Nádia Gomes, returning to play in the USL W is a [https://www.sfchronicle.com/sports/article/nwsl-draft-pick-disappeared-making-comeback-18160117.php key part] of her biography. Maybe we could require independent sourcing to make them infobox-worthy? Just a thought. Hameltion (talk | contribs) 02:27, 14 March 2025 (UTC)

:Male players have equivalent statistics from USL League Two / USL PDL included, so it would be consistent to include them in women's soccer biographies. I consider it to be the same as European players have their youth academies listed in the infobox even if they aren't well-covered in sources. SounderBruce 03:53, 14 March 2025 (UTC)

::Agree with Bruce - we do it for men, I don't see why not women. GiantSnowman 14:19, 14 March 2025 (UTC)

:::Thanks all. I'm still a bit skeptical that they'd always be due but the USL2 comparison is useful. Hameltion (talk | contribs) 04:27, 15 March 2025 (UTC)

::::I don't think UNDUE comes into it, especially if the club they played for / league they played in have articles... GiantSnowman 08:41, 15 March 2025 (UTC)

Should academy players who have played senior games be included in the club's navbox, despite not being listed as a first-team player in the club's website? For example, I argue that Mikey Ghossaini should be included in {{t|Melbourne City FC squad}} as he has made 8 apps for City this season. {{u|SuperJew}} argues that he's not a first-team player and should not be included. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 15:26, 16 March 2025 (UTC)

:Yes, if a player is making first-team appearances, then they are clearly in the first-team and should be in the navbox. GiantSnowman 15:35, 16 March 2025 (UTC)

::Yeah, 8 league appearances is clearly part of the 1st team squad. Spike 'em (talk) 18:00, 16 March 2025 (UTC)

:::1st team squad are players who are signed to senior contracts. Not anyone who makes an appearance. Do you see him on the [https://melbournecityfc.com.au/squads/men/ club's squad page]? --SuperJew (talk) 07:38, 17 March 2025 (UTC)

::::What does the average reader expect to see / find useful in the 1st team squad navbox? You want to willingly exclude a player who is evidently a regular part of the 1st team squad? Spike 'em (talk) 12:07, 17 March 2025 (UTC)

:::::So what about an academy player who was subbed on 5 minutes at the end of a match because half the senior squad was injured/on international duty he should also be added? He's clearly not actually part of the 1st team squad.

:::::And the average reader expects to see the senior team squad, as they'd see on the club website. --SuperJew (talk) 12:20, 17 March 2025 (UTC)

:::::: Who is Lachie Charles (also in the infobox)? Meanwhile, if someone is playing regularly I'd expect to see them in the template. There are always going to be edge cases here. Black Kite (talk) 12:30, 17 March 2025 (UTC)

:::::::Lachie Charles is a Melbourne City player who has [https://melbournecityfc.com.au/news/20241030-charles-signs/ signed a senior contract]. --SuperJew (talk) 13:20, 17 March 2025 (UTC)

::::::::He does not appear on the website squad list you are so insistent on using, and his senior contract does not start until July {{tq|Charles’ senior contract officially starts on July 1, 2025, and includes a trigger for a further two years.}} Spike 'em (talk) 14:25, 17 March 2025 (UTC)

:::::::::Fair point, he shouldn't be in the navbox. --SuperJew (talk) 16:26, 17 March 2025 (UTC)

::::::I'd expect to see all the players who are likely to play for the first team, regardless of the type of contract they hold. This demonstrably includes Ghossaini. If this means temporarily including edge cases, then so be it. Spike 'em (talk) 14:20, 17 March 2025 (UTC)

Same for Raúl Asencio (footballer, born 2003), he still is not listed in the teams [https://www.realmadrid.com/es-ES/futbol/primer-equipo-masculino/plantilla website] but he is a regular starter for Real the last months so he should be in the navbox (plus the infobox). Kante4 (talk) 16:29, 17 March 2025 (UTC)

::For me personally, I'd include them. The Edge cases for me make it hard to find a hard and fast rule. If an academy player was in the lineup from August through January, then stops appearing in February and you're there wondering whether they should be there when they were consistently there for months. I'd say, if they played then leave them for the season. RedPatch (talk) 16:39, 17 March 2025 (UTC)

:::Clear consensus here I think. GiantSnowman 18:39, 17 March 2025 (UTC)

::::I have gone ahead and added an entry to Wikipedia:WikiProject Football/Consensus. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 19:25, 17 March 2025 (UTC)

Can somebody with more time than me please take the axe to Thomas Tuchel, how this is a GA is an embarrassment - do we really need details of every PSG player bought? etc. etc. GiantSnowman 18:42, 20 March 2025 (UTC)

Can somebody do me a favour and delete Alan Buckett, please? Just found out he's Bill Baggett, so I've added all his managerial content in the Bill Baggett article. No reason for the Alan Buckett article to be around anymore.

I've always thought John Begget is the same bloke too, but I've hit a dead end every time I've tried to find out more.

Cheers. NouveauSarfas (Talk page) 16:24, 21 March 2025 (UTC)

:Done. U003F^? 16:34, 21 March 2025 (UTC)

::Out of interest, given that's quite a name difference, what's the reason for the discrepancy? GiantSnowman 17:29, 21 March 2025 (UTC)

:::Could be anything really. Reckon it's probably "Bill Baggett" being transliterated poorly into Greek half a century ago that's lead to a random name of Alan Buckett. That's why I'm convinced John Begget is him too - Baggett and Begget very similar sounding names, John is Bill's middle name and Bill Baggett has a blank few years when John Begget is manager of Galatasaray. Just can't seem to find anything definitive to say they're the same person. NouveauSarfas (Talk page) 00:17, 22 March 2025 (UTC)

::::Knew they were the same people, found an Evening Standard article talking about an ex-Bolton and Reading playing called "William Bagget" going out to manage Galatasaray. NouveauSarfas (Talk page) 00:35, 22 March 2025 (UTC)

::::: {{oldid2|1254886529|John Begget}}, as was before the redirect, did have some quite different info to the main article: dates and places of birth and death, teams played for. Do you know where that info came from? U003F^? 06:26, 22 March 2025 (UTC)

::::::Hard to remember now, but vaguely remember it being from a Turkish source. More than enough evidence to confirm they're all the same people, luckily. NouveauSarfas (Talk page) 20:39, 22 March 2025 (UTC)

I have opened an RM to apply Wikipedia:Ignore all rules in regards to naming conventions for football in Australia and move the page Soccer in Australia to Association football in Australia. Thank you Servite et contribuere (talk) Servite et contribuere (talk) 07:04, 23 March 2025 (UTC)

I've noticed a few articles with assists tables, do with not have a consensus against them? Govvy (talk) 09:28, 23 March 2025 (UTC)

:We do. You're welcome to remove --SuperJew (talk) 09:58, 23 March 2025 (UTC)

Is there a consensus on linking referees who don't have articles? Most pages I've seen don't do it, but quite a few do, so I was just wondering if there is a standard practice. Wburrow (talk) 19:54, 21 March 2025 (UTC)

:You should redlink if the subject is likely to be notable. It isn't a one size fits all model. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 20:34, 21 March 2025 (UTC)

:See WP:REDLINKS, there should only be red links of the topic is notable. GiantSnowman 20:34, 21 March 2025 (UTC)

::I was wondering... Is there any referee that pass WP:GNG? Please provide me IRS significant coverage of football referee. ⋆｡˚꒰ঌ Clara A. Djalim ໒꒱˚｡⋆ 13:37, 23 March 2025 (UTC)

:::Pierluigi Collina U003F^? 14:00, 23 March 2025 (UTC)

::::Loads of referees are notable, what a silly question. GiantSnowman 16:08, 23 March 2025 (UTC)

Whats the Kit usage all about? I don't understand the table. Govvy (talk) 10:49, 23 March 2025 (UTC)

:Apart from being completely unreferenced (and probably unreferenceable, as personal research), it is utterly excessive detail and of little interest to anyone other than the editor who created it. It should be deleted, but we need the comments of the editor ((user:Cakesam] first, otherwise this would almost certainly spark an edit war. Daemonickangaroo2018 (talk) 13:13, 23 March 2025 (UTC)

::I have removed it. GiantSnowman 13:32, 23 March 2025 (UTC)

:::It's essentially WP:FANCRUFT AND WP:TRIVIA. Not necessary for an article and definitely not standard. The images of the kits are fine, but match by match usage is superfluous. RedPatch (talk) 16:44, 23 March 2025 (UTC)

Another thing is penalties taken, penalties saving, own goals, Hat-tricks, Suspensions, Injuries, Captains, Number of players by country. Those are all trivia stuff, WP:STATS and not needed i would say. Kante4 (talk) 16:48, 23 March 2025 (UTC)

:More than 99% of the edits on this page are all from one user @Cakesam and worth noting that he's added the same level of detail to several other Hungarian clubs' season pages - see his user page for links ColchesterSid (talk) 18:39, 23 March 2025 (UTC)

::I would like to know why it is a problem if the article is detailed? The listed statistical indicators can be found in the seasonal articles of several other clubs. By the way, I would like to see someone else edit the article, but not many people have edited it yet. On the other hand, I don't want to see outdated information in the article, so I prefer to update it whenever I can. This is how it happened that 99% of the edits were made by me. In my opinion, what a fellow editor doesn't want to see in the article is just an opinion, maybe many people like to look at these statistical indicators. I trust that you will appreciate the time and energy I put into editing the article and will not delete it. Regards, Cakesam (talk) 22:17, 23 March 2025 (UTC)

:::{{reply|Cakesam}} I respect that you're trying to make a good article, however the amount of data in the tables does seem overkill. It might be better if you can write prose about the season than adding obscure facts in tables. Regards. Govvy (talk) 09:05, 24 March 2025 (UTC)

Hi, I've seen that usually a list of player registrations from FIFA is enough to confirm what someone's name actually is. This player, whose page has just been moved, was at the 2024 Olympics so I would appreciate if anyone has a source to confirm the matter. There's this page from the Olympics, which says "De Jesus" but I don't know if it was ever meant to be authoritative. [https://www.olympics.com/en/athletes/ronaldo-de-jesus] Unknown Temptation (talk) 17:27, 24 March 2025 (UTC)

:I know some people like to claim it's not considered a reliable source because it is social media, but I always say, there's no better source than how the player writes their own name. [https://www.instagram.com/ronaldo_dejesus35/?hl=en On his own Instagram], he doesn't have a space, so I'd say no space. RedPatch (talk) 18:43, 24 March 2025 (UTC)

::Agree with RedPatch - I used Instagram at Ziyad Larkeche to decide whether or not to include an accent... GiantSnowman 18:45, 24 March 2025 (UTC)

I removed some content which I feel was too much, but it got reverted, [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=2024%E2%80%9325_Galatasaray_S.K._season&diff=prev&oldid=1282109411], does someone else want to deal with this guy? Govvy (talk) 19:56, 24 March 2025 (UTC)

Simple question. Is the Baller League notable?Daemonickangaroo2018 (talk) 05:34, 25 March 2025 (UTC)

:No idea, I don't know much about the league. ⋆｡˚꒰ঌ Clara A. Djalim ໒꒱˚｡⋆ 13:39, 26 March 2025 (UTC)

::If it's covered in detail by Reliable Sources, then yes. Looks similar to the Kings League and Queens League in Spain and The Soccer Tournament in the United States. RedPatch (talk) 14:51, 26 March 2025 (UTC)

:::[https://talksport.com/football/3041079/baller-league-uk-format-rules-fixtures-schedule-squads-players-channel/ This], [https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11095/13335398/baller-league-pk-humble-angry-ginge-and-a-glimpse-into-the-future-of-football-after-matchday-one this], [https://www.si.com/soccer/baller-league-uk-teams-schedule-how-to-watch this], [https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/articles/c3rx5ll9y3zo this], [https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/articles/c8j029rwym3o this], etc. While it all looks like a bit of a circus to a jaded old man like me, it certainly seems notable -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 15:20, 26 March 2025 (UTC)

::::Agree with Chris - it's nonsense, but it's notable. GiantSnowman 17:32, 26 March 2025 (UTC)

:::::Yes, notable as a TV show/social media enterprise - but not in itself notable from a football point of view. I think there is a potential danger that on individual player/manager pages that this is given (undeserved) equal footing with "proper" football. So for example, if John Terry's team won the Baller League - would that get added to his list of honours as a manager? ColchesterSid (talk) 20:42, 26 March 2025 (UTC)

Anybody know if Thomas Barnett (footballer, born 1908) was the father of Thomas Barnett (footballer, born 1936)? Identical full names, from the same area (15 miles), dates match up... GiantSnowman 21:13, 26 March 2025 (UTC)

Should the CONCACAF Nations League title be included as an honour in player articles of players who played earlier on in the competition but that weren't called up to the 2025 CONCACAF Nations League Finals? Example: Guillermo Ochoa. Paul Vaurie (talk) 19:30, 24 March 2025 (UTC)

: My intuition is yes so I've gone with that. Paul Vaurie (talk) 01:09, 27 March 2025 (UTC)

It's been [http://barryhugmansfootballers.com/ 404] for a few days... GiantSnowman 15:37, 28 March 2025 (UTC)

:I've got his email address so I've sent him a message to ask... ColchesterSid (talk) 15:49, 28 March 2025 (UTC)

::{{re|GiantSnowman}} Hopefully the site will come back up, but luckily last year I ensured all 26,000+ player profiles were archived on the Wayback Machine. So there is a fallback option for Template:Hugman in the worst-case scenario. S.A. Julio (talk) 18:10, 31 March 2025 (UTC)

:::You legend, thank you! GiantSnowman 18:11, 31 March 2025 (UTC)

::::I've not had any reply to my email ColchesterSid (talk) 19:49, 31 March 2025 (UTC)

:::::This summer ENFA will move to a new site. It will probably be free to use. [https://www.enfa.co.uk/]. Maybe that’s the reason the site is gone, there is not much information on Hugman’s site that can’t be found on ENFA. Cattivi (talk) 05:13, 1 April 2025 (UTC)

The following pages have date errors which I couldn't fix. If anyone is familiar here with these pages, please take a look.

• 1952–53 Northampton Town F.C. season
• 2006–07 Feyenoord season
• 2012–13 Sun Hei SC season
• 2014 in Peruvian football
• 2014 Sanfrecce Hiroshima season
• 2016 Pakistan Football Federation Cup
• 2022–23 Kerala Blasters FC season
• 1984–85 Balkans Cup
• 2014 Torneo del Inca
• 1962–63 MC Alger season
• MNL League Cup 2024
• UAAP Season 81 football tournaments
• 1962–63 USM Alger season
• 1962–63 USM Marengo season
• 2016 São Tomé and Príncipe Championship

Gonnym (talk) 12:00, 31 March 2025 (UTC)

:{{ping|Gonnym}} - how do you identify these errors? I had a look at the Northampton one but can't see anything obviously wrong..... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 12:35, 31 March 2025 (UTC)

::Done a few... you probably looked after I'd fixed the Northampton one, there was a great big red error msg which has now gone away. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 12:39, 31 March 2025 (UTC)

::That one seems to be fixed already.

::It is date formating issues being reported by {{tl|Start Date}} and similar.

::For the final one as an example, the years are at the end, instead of start of the dates. Do a regexp search and replace of {{Start date\|([0-9]+)\|([0-9]+)\|(196[0-9])\|df=y}} with {{Start date|$3|$2|$1|df=y}}. Spike 'em (talk) 12:43, 31 March 2025 (UTC)

:::I'm sorry I wasn't clear, I know why the error is showing, I've added the code to identify bad dates. In these specific articles, I couldn't decide what the correct date was, for one reason or another. Gonnym (talk) 12:46, 31 March 2025 (UTC)

::@ChrisTheDude search for "error" in the article and you'll find it. Gonnym (talk) 12:46, 31 March 2025 (UTC)

All done it seems, thanks to all that did the fixes. Kante4 (talk) 15:35, 1 April 2025 (UTC)

User Special:Contributions/Timmy96 was banned in 2023 for a lack of competence. They clearly had severe educational shortcomings and would add vast amounts of fundamentally inadequate text to articles on mostly quite obscure footballers. They are still editing in defiance of their ban. One of their most characteristic habits is using the phrase "it wasn't until on". You can currently find this phrase in 236 articles ([https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?search=%22wasn%27t+until+on%22&title=Special%3ASearch&ns0=1]). Where possible, it would be ideal if people could revert these articles to before the addition of the substandard material (quite easy to find in article histories, will be a single edit with a very large diff, generally at least 50,000 bytes in size). Where the user managed to get their material into the article some time ago, a lot more work will unfortunately be required to return the articles to a state of any quality. Going forward, if a few users regularly search for the phrase "it wasn't until on" and revert on sight, perhaps the banned user might eventually get the message. 94.119.32.15 (talk) 14:17, 22 March 2025 (UTC)

:A problem I have is that the user who added the disputed content to Eiji Kawashima in July 2924 was user:94.119.128.1, and the user who edited Antti Niemi (footballer) in July 2024 was user:94.119.41.22. Both rather close to the user name of the IP who raised this query. Daemonickangaroo2018 (talk) 15:41, 22 March 2025 (UTC)

:::And the problem you have with two IP addresses being similar is what, exactly? 94.119.32.69 (talk) 09:38, 28 March 2025 (UTC)

::{{re|94.119.32.15}} The proper place to raise this concern would be WP:SPI since that is where the editors with the permissions to verify sockpuppetry will see your concerns.

::{{re|Daemonickangaroo2018}} Just because this IP address is similar to other IP addresses that were involved in content disputes does not mean they are the same person; even if it were the same IP address, that still does not mean it's the same person because some ISPs use dynamic IP addressing. If you have a legitimate concern regarding this user, then go to WP:AN. — Jkudlick ⚓ (talk) 17:20, 22 March 2025 (UTC)

:::There is no need for a sockpuppet investigation. The sockpuppetry is blindingly obvious, and further confirmation of it would not do anything to undo the damage that the sockpuppet has caused. Do you want that damage to be undone, or are you not particularly bothered by hundreds of articles containing grossly substandard material? 94.119.32.69 (talk) 09:38, 28 March 2025 (UTC)

::::{{re|94.119.32.69}} Not all administrators have the checkuser permission required to verify sockpuppetry, and not all checkusers are admins. They also can't just use the permission without a valid reason, such as an SPI investigation. Admins could then take the necessary action. Request a case there if you really want it to stop. — Jkudlick ⚓ (talk) 16:45, 1 April 2025 (UTC)

I have seen "loan returns" included in tables of transfers on club season articles, such as 2024–25 VfB Stuttgart season. Is there any consensus on their inclusion in these tables? It seems silly to include them in a table of transfers but I wanted to check there was consensus on the matter before I start removing them because it is fairly widespread. Microwave Anarchist (talk) 21:03, 23 March 2025 (UTC)

:Why would you not include them? It's a player movement. --SuperJew (talk) 21:36, 23 March 2025 (UTC)

::Agreed, I would keep them. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 21:53, 23 March 2025 (UTC)

:::It isn't a transfer though, a player having been out on loan in the previous season doesn't relate to the current season at all. Also, most third party sources I've cone across don't consider loan returns as transfers, e.g. [https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11095/13137622/transfer-news-summer-transfer-window-2024-premier-league-ins-and-outs Sky Sports], [https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/articles/c5yd639d19po BBC Sport], [https://www.kicker.de/die-sommer-neuzugaenge-der-bundesligisten-im-ueberblick-954971/artikel kicker]. The only exception to this is I am aware of is Transfermarkt. Microwave Anarchist (talk) 22:22, 23 March 2025 (UTC)

::::So change the name of the table to "squad changes" like in the [https://www.vfb.de/en/1893/team/squad/seasons/2024-2025/squad-changes/ Stuttgart source]. You're just arguing semantics. The question is should we list the changes in the squad between and during seasons. My opinion (and others here too and I would argue the average reader) is yes to list all changes. At the end of the day, a fan wants to know which players the club has it's disposal, not only which players came in on a "transfer". What's next? only listing paid for transfers since free transfers are free? --SuperJew (talk) 01:28, 24 March 2025 (UTC)

:::::Surely the squad list will let the reader know which players are available? The fact that a player was on loan the previous season is pretty inconsequential, particularly as that info is available on the previous season's page. Incoming / outgoing transfers are events that happen during the season concerned, loan returns are not. Spike 'em (talk) 16:28, 24 March 2025 (UTC)

::::::{{tq|Surely the squad list will let the reader know which players are available?}} So let's get rid of transfers too? Maybe the fact that a player player for a different club the previous season is pretty inconsequential, particularly as that info is available on that club's previous season's page? --SuperJew (talk) 19:36, 24 March 2025 (UTC)

:::::::{{tq|Incoming / outgoing transfers are events that happen during the season concerned, loan returns are not.}} Spike 'em (talk) 23:10, 24 March 2025 (UTC)

::::::::A loan return after the last game of the 2024-25 season was played doesn't affect the 2024-25 season in any way. --SuperJew (talk) 06:50, 25 March 2025 (UTC)

:Been through this. Doesn’t matter; people will do what they want. Seasider53 (talk) 23:46, 23 March 2025 (UTC)

:Personally, I'd only list single-season loans in the season that they happen, for both the lending and borrowing team. Spike 'em (talk) 08:40, 24 March 2025 (UTC)

::Regarding the article 2024–25 VfB Stuttgart season; I don't like that loans and transfers are mixed into one table. They should be separated. And players returning from a loan return to the club at the end of the season. Not the following season. So they shouldn't even be on that list.

::I've spoken about this issue to death, I personally don't think there should be any table about a player returning from a loan. In fact I believe we should just write it out in prose. It would be far better to simple write a paragraph on players who were out on loan last season and have return to the squad for this season. Govvy (talk) 08:53, 24 March 2025 (UTC)

::Say the final match of the season is in April 2025, the player returns from loan June 2025 - why list it in that season's page? it's irrelevant to that season already. Again look at how [https://www.vfb.de/en/1893/team/squad/seasons/2024-2025/squad-changes/ the source] handles it. --SuperJew (talk) 09:42, 24 March 2025 (UTC)

:::{{tq|In fact I believe we should just write it out in prose}} - and that in one sentence sums up the problems with most season articles (at least those covering the last 20 years or so) which invariably consist of loads of chaotic-looking tables and almost no prose...... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 09:56, 24 March 2025 (UTC)

:::If the last game is in April, then why would the loanee hang around for another 2 months? Spike 'em (talk) 10:08, 24 March 2025 (UTC)

::::That's when the contract is until in most cases. What is the loanee actually doing? probably on vacation as it's off-season, not training with either club and will return to parent club for pre-season training around June. --SuperJew (talk) 10:16, 24 March 2025 (UTC)

:::::Obviously this only covers England, but the FA's official regulations ([https://www.thefa.com/~/media/Files/TheFAPortal/governance-docs/rules-of-the-association/standardised-rules.ashx]) state that "Long Term Loan Transfers shall be for a full Playing Season; or from any date prior to 31st August to any date between 1st and 31st January; or from any date between 1st and 31st January (the January transfer window) to the end of the Playing Season" and separately defines the Playing Season as "the period between the date on which the first league fixture in the Competition is played each year until the date on which the last league fixture in the Competition is played. For Clubs participating in play off matches this does include the period when play off matches are played." This indicates that loans end as soon as the last game of the league season has been played and not in June -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 10:26, 24 March 2025 (UTC)

:::{{re|SuperJew}} the problem with referring to what sources do here is that returns from loans are rarely covered, Stuttgart even covering players coming back from loans at all feels like an exception rather than a rule (I've come not come across many clubs that do this), with the exception of loans being terminated early, and third party sources certainly don't tend to cover loan returns as transfers. Its so much easier to read with loans in a separate table to permanent transfers where the start and end date of a loan is given, and is consistent with how loans tend to be reported on, and this information certainly shouldn't be contained only in the article for a different season to the one the loan took place in. Microwave Anarchist (talk) 16:38, 24 March 2025 (UTC)

::::I'm really not understanding why you think loans/loan returns should be treated any differently than transfers. Or why it's easier to read in separate tables. Both are movement of player from different club to this club. --SuperJew (talk) 19:39, 24 March 2025 (UTC)

:::::Loans are fundamentally very different to permanent transfers, it's ridiculous to treat them as if they aren't. Putting them separately from other transfers rather than this mess of a format allows all the information on the loan to be consolidated in one place such as the start and end date of the loan being given together. Take 2008–09_Huddersfield_Town_A.F.C._season#Players in and out as an example (ignoring the issues with sourcing here) - the loans mean this takes up so much more space than it needs to, for every loan its unclear what the duration is without a significant amount of scrolling up and down or Ctrl+F and this is without the issue of the return date from the loan being listed on a different article, because at least the loan returns are put in the same season here. Microwave Anarchist (talk) 23:44, 24 March 2025 (UTC)

::::::So the table is not formatted well. Look at 2024–25 Melbourne Victory FC season for example: Badolato was loaned in for a period of 5 months. On the Huddersfield article I also don't know what the duration of contract signed is for permanent transfers, unlike the Melbourne Victory article. Can you actually explain what the fundamental difference is? Both transfers and loans have a start date and an end of contract date. Loanees can be recalled while permanent players can be sold/terminated. What is actually the difference? --SuperJew (talk) 07:09, 25 March 2025 (UTC)

::::::{{re|SuperJew}} sorry for the delayed reply, I've been offline for a few days. Firstly, that is actually a very nicely formatted table, not seen contract length used in these tables before and it does address the main issue I have with the Stuttgart article, that is not giving the length of the loan directly. However, looking at other articles with this format to see how it handles loans out, 2024–25 Sydney FC season doesn't give the duration of outgoing loans. I don't see how to address this in a manner that makes sense other than simply putting loans separately to regular transfers - contract length for outgoing transfers is clearly superfluous but duration of loans out isn't. The types of information readers want to know and is relevant to transfers is different for loans and permanent deals, so it makes sense to put them separately. Microwave Anarchist (talk) 21:24, 30 March 2025 (UTC)

:::::::That's a fair point about the outgoing loans. Can be easily solved by adding to the column "1 year loan" for example or adding to the ref./note column. Either seems to me to be easier and make more sense than to have separate tables. --SuperJew (talk) 22:56, 30 March 2025 (UTC)

:::::No-one is saying not to mention loans, just to do so once, in the season that the loan happens. When the loan takes place the start and end points are known, usually within the same season, so makes sense to record so they information there. Spike 'em (talk) 00:03, 25 March 2025 (UTC)

::::::loan return for sure shouldnt be listed, especially when you have teams like chelsea and theri 100 strong loan army.Muur (talk) 23:55, 1 April 2025 (UTC)

This IP Special:Contributions/152.169.179.184 keeps changing "represents X national team" to "plays for X national team" particularly on the pages of players who are born in one country that play for another. Thoughts? To me the former sounds better/more formal. RedPatch (talk) 00:47, 29 March 2025 (UTC)

:In all fairness, grammatically his edit makes more sense. You represent a country, and play for a team. So it's either "represents X internationally" or "plays for X national team". Nehme₁₄₉₉ 01:44, 29 March 2025 (UTC)

::I agree with Nehme1499. I would never say, for example, that Harry Kane "represents the England national team". He either "represents England" or "plays for the England national team" -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 07:27, 29 March 2025 (UTC)

:::Agree that those are the two options, but as I think it's better to clarify it's a national team, I suggest "plays for the X national team". GiantSnowman 09:52, 29 March 2025 (UTC)

::::I agree with GiantSnowman; "plays for [Country] national football team" sounds better. ⋆｡˚꒰ঌ Clara A. Djalim ໒꒱˚｡⋆ 13:46, 2 April 2025 (UTC)

Not so much a vandal, but {{vandal|NST12052002}} is unusually clueless on how to edit Wikipedia. I suggest that an admin who read this, follows the user and issues a block, for instance 1 week, the next time the user bypasses or neglects the advice on their talk page. Geschichte (talk) 07:21, 2 April 2025 (UTC)

:WP:CIR applies... GiantSnowman 16:59, 2 April 2025 (UTC)

I noticed {{u|Robby.is.on}} removing links to footballdatabase.eu , then a conversation saying the website is user generated. So a website, in order to edit anything on it, a user first needs to go through a strict interview. It's not exactly a traditional user generated site like you think. You actually need to prove you're reliable. So again, I strongly feel it needs another review. Govvy (talk) 08:09, 28 March 2025 (UTC)

• footballdatabase.eu ToU

1.4. Selection of users to contribute to the site

Users will be selected on written request (forms accessible once registered and connected to the site) following an exchange with a site administrator. Once their application to contribute to the site has been validated, users will be given privileged and limited access to their area, allowing them to make all the necessary changes and additions (content, data, photos, club logos, etc.). This access is limited and may be suspended or canceled at any time in the event of a serious breach of these general conditions, in particular with regard to respect for intellectual property. Govvy (talk) 08:09, 28 March 2025 (UTC)

:Yes, FootballDatabase.eu has been on our football-specific list of unreliable sources at WP:WPFLINKSNO since a discussion from December 2023 at Reliable sources/Noticeboard found it to be user-generated. This was based on BlackKite's findings that "[…] users who buy credits can provide information. This is therefore UGC and is not reliable." Robby.is.on (talk) 11:12, 28 March 2025 (UTC)

:: Yes, and I've just logged on and the system is still the same. Whilst it's better than your stereotypical UGC, I'm unconvinced that it's reliable enough to not be regarded as one, if you see what I mean. Black Kite (talk) 07:39, 29 March 2025 (UTC)

::: If we can't use footballdatabase.eu, why are there still social media to provide references? These are user-generated contents too. ⋆｡˚꒰ঌ Clara A. Djalim ໒꒱˚｡⋆ 10:17, 3 April 2025 (UTC)

::::There are clear explanations when social media can be used as references. Read WP:SOCIALS. --SuperJew (talk) 10:33, 3 April 2025 (UTC)

File:Information.svg There is a requested move discussion at Talk:1924–25 Swedish football Division 2#Requested move 26 March 2025 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. TarnishedPath^talk 12:48, 4 April 2025 (UTC)

Hi there! Lately I've been updating the List of foreign Ekstraklasa players article, based on similar pages created for other leagues. Not sure how to proceed with players born abroad who hold a Polish citizenship, whether they've represented Poland/were eligible at any point of their career or not. Different lists have different approaches, even if they list the same criteria in their ledes. I've looked whether a consensus had been reached here in the past, but found nothing in the archives. Here are six 'groups' of players with different characteristics - I was wondering what others think about how/if they should be included in said list.

• 1. Naturalized, went on to represent Poland (e.g. Emmanuel Olisadebe, Roger Guerreiro).
• 2. Naturalized, have not represented Poland (e.g. Andreja Prokić, Émile Thiakane, Costante Bonazza).
• 3. Naturalized, ineligible for Poland (e.g. Jasmin Burić, Wilde-Donald Guerrier).
• 4. Citizens through descent, have not represented any country (e.g. Mathieu Scalet, David Poreba)
• 5. Citizens through descent, represented another country but (possibly) remain eligible for Poland (e.g. Tomás Podstawski, Ziggy Gordon, Paweł Cibicki)
• 6. Citizens through descent, represented another country before switching to Poland (e.g. Michał/Michael Kostka)

As of now, groups 1 & 5 (and most of 3) are included in the Ekstraklasa list, under their countries of birth, with appropriate notes. Any and all feedback regarding proper criteria, and way of listing these (under their place of birth/current sporting nationality/separate section, etc.) would be appreciated, especially from those who have worked on similar lists in the past. I'm not looking to set a new hard standard for other "List of foreign X players" to follow, unless their editors and other experienced WP:Footy participants agree on an approach that would suit these articles best. Thanks a lot, take care, enjoy your weekend KibolLP (talk) 10:02, 5 April 2025 (UTC)

Kia ora! I'm working through a list of issues in relation to articles within WikiProject New Zealand, and have come across the article in the title. It's been flagged for accessibility issues in relation to the statistics section due to its use of colours. Unfortunately I don't know enough about how football articles are structured to fix it without likely breaking things, so I'm wondering whether someone here might have time to take a look and help resolve the issue? Turnagra (talk) 22:43, 4 April 2025 (UTC)

:all the match by match details are complete overkill, and looks like the person filling them in lost interest. I'd delete some of the tables and remove any columns that represent individual games (which I think would remove the need for colours) in the rest. If I was on desktop I'd do now, but visual editing on phone is too tricky! Spike 'em (talk) 05:54, 5 April 2025 (UTC)

::Actually, given the first table only includes 2/3 of the games it is pretty meaningless as a historic record so I'd delete all the tables and start from scratch. The next season (linked in the infobox) has a far more normal table, showing total appearances and goals, without the need for colours. Spike 'em (talk) 08:49, 5 April 2025 (UTC)

:I have removed the match by match statistics, and hence the need for colours. However, the section is unreferenced and out of date, so I've added 2 other maintenence tags, as I don't have the time or inclination to do anything else with it.

:Have a look at 2014–15 Wellington Phoenix FC season#Statistics which has all the stats in a single, referenced table. Spike 'em (talk) 09:31, 7 April 2025 (UTC)

::Thank you, appreciate you taking a look at this! I'll try and find some time to address those issues and the earlier seasons Turnagra (talk) 09:52, 7 April 2025 (UTC)

:Also, it seems that multiple previous seasons have the same accessibility issues with excessively detailed stats tables. Spike 'em (talk) 09:39, 7 April 2025 (UTC)

Hello!

I have recently created a draft for the defunct Romanian football club ROVA Roșiori. The club played several seasons in Divizia B (second tier) and Divizia C (third tier), and I believe it deserves a Wikipedia page based on its history.

I would appreciate it if someone from the football community could review the draft and provide feedback or approve it for publication.

Here is the link to the draft: [Draft:ROVA_Roșiori](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft:ROVA_Roșiori)

Thank you in advance for your time and assistance! Alexandru1223 (talk) 22:29, 7 April 2025 (UTC)

I've seen that Real Madrid (Puerto Rico) has just had a PROD added and has not had a source since 2009, which is supposedly the year in which it was founded. I've tried searching about this club but can only find sources discussing the more well known Real Madrid. If they played in the Puerto Rico Soccer League then it shouldn't be hard to find sources and the club should be notable but I can't find anything, although I'm not too familiar with Puerto Rican sources. If this is a hoax, then it's one of the longest lasting of all time on Wikipedia per Wikipedia:List of hoaxes on Wikipedia and has lasted longer than Nelson Larios. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 14:35, 7 April 2025 (UTC)

:It may not be a hoax, rather a franchise agreement that was announced but never came to fruition. There have been franchise/affiliate teams in Puerto Rico (River Plate, Sevilla etc) but looking at the various leagues/competitions around that time it looks very ad hoc ColchesterSid (talk) 15:41, 7 April 2025 (UTC)

::Besides Sevilla FC, has there ever been another club with the stolen name from Real Madrid in Puerto Rico? The article neither provides even official website. I'm also not familiar with news media from smaller countries like Puerto Rico. ⋆｡˚꒰ঌ Clara A. Djalim ໒꒱˚｡⋆ 15:53, 8 April 2025 (UTC)

Do the reports of all AFC Asian Cup exist online(by report means not of matches but a report of any games or competition as a whole, for example [https://digital.la84.org/digital/collection/p17103coll8/id/5717/rec/19 Official Report of the Organising Committee for the XIV Olympiad]), in archives or online library etc, just like the reports of Asian Games and Olympics Games? If available, then can anyone provide me the links here, atleast 1956, 1964, 1972, 1984 and 2011. Will be very much thankfull. Drat8sub (talk) 13:45, 5 April 2025 (UTC)

:{{ping|Drat8sub}} Your best resource is probably the AFC themselves or a database like RSSSF, which has [https://www.rsssf.org/tables/56asch.html results tables] and [https://www.rsssf.org/tables/1956_asia_squads.pdf rosters]. SounderBruce 23:15, 8 April 2025 (UTC)

::I am not looking for match results or players...I'm a member of Rsssf though. I am looking for the reports, reports include more than matches and players, various other information for which I need them, earlier I had few but now don't find anywhere online. I actually was searching in AFC only and their data base archives and did not find any other than the History of AFC Championship published in 2019. And I really need them to include here in wikipedia for some of the articles. Anyway, if anyone is able to provide here that will be great, otherwise I think I have to ask fellow members in rsssf, if they have and then archiving them to provide here. Drat8sub (talk) 07:29, 9 April 2025 (UTC)

:::{{ping|ChrisTheDude}}{{ping|SuperJew}}{{ping|GiantSnowman}}{{ping|Nehme1499}}{{ping|Spike 'em}}, do you have any idea where can be these organising reports, any pdf or archives, kindly respond if you can help in it. Drat8sub (talk) 07:44, 9 April 2025 (UTC)

::::No idea, sorry -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 07:57, 9 April 2025 (UTC)

::::I have no knowledge (nor indeed interest) in this subject. Spike 'em (talk) 07:59, 9 April 2025 (UTC)

:::::Same, sorry - have you tried emailing the AFC? GiantSnowman 16:23, 9 April 2025 (UTC)

::::::I did last year, without mentioning year and received a mail with the 2023 report, which is already available online, for which did not mention above also. Last month, sent another mail mentioning years, but no response yet, lets see if they provide or not, if only such old Technical report are there. Drat8sub (talk) 17:01, 9 April 2025 (UTC)

We do not have historical squad templates for things other than major international tournaments, certainly not club level - so thoughts on {{cat|NCAA Division I women's soccer tournament champions navigational boxes}} welcome... GiantSnowman 16:23, 8 April 2025 (UTC)

:Delete per consensus. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 16:32, 8 April 2025 (UTC)

::Should be deleted, the same discussion for college champions took place here. S.A. Julio (talk) 17:13, 8 April 2025 (UTC)

:::Thanks guys - could I trouble you to please CFD it and the sub-templates please? I'm going on a long holiday next week and will be largely unavailable for nearly 3 weeks, so won't have the time for it. GiantSnowman 16:33, 9 April 2025 (UTC)

::::Done. — Jkudlick ⚓ (talk) 17:28, 9 April 2025 (UTC)

:::::Lovely, thanks! GiantSnowman 17:23, 10 April 2025 (UTC)

Note that {{ping|Johnpacklambert}} has decided that footballers should be removed from this category for some reason... GiantSnowman 18:44, 11 April 2025 (UTC)

• This editor is being deliberately misinformative. He knows why I removed the articles in question, and it has nothing to do with them being footballers. It has to do with the fact that this category, French expatriates in Scotland, is meant for people who were French expatriates in Scotland when it was a seperate country. Expatriates are defined by the country they are in, not the sub-national entity they are in. We do not have :Category:French expatriates in Arizona, :Category:French expatriates in California, :Category:French expatriates in Alberta or :Category:French expatriates in Florida. We have :Category:French expatriates in the United States, :Category:French expatriates in Canada etc. Expatriateness is defined by what country people are in, not by sub-national entities. We have :Category:French expatriates in the Kingdom of Great Britain and :Category:French expatriates in the United Kingdom to cover people based on being expatriates in those countries, so :Category:French expatriates in Scotland is for pre-1707 expatriates, not those after that year. I have already explained that, and the statement above is a clear and malicous lie designed to falsely accuse me of doing something that is disruptive and underhanded and somehow against a specific group, when in fact it has been clerarly explained.John Pack Lambert (talk) 18:50, 11 April 2025 (UTC)
• :I have asked you repeatedly on your talk page - where is the policy or guidance that says this category is pre-1707 only? It is [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Category:French_expatriates_in_Scotland&diff=prev&oldid=1285103448 you] who made that decision, with no consensus. As such, your edits are disruptive. GiantSnowman 18:53, 11 April 2025 (UTC)
• :There is a Scottish football league system and an English football league system. There is not a British football league system. In footballing terms, they are seperate. It's as simple as that. EchetusXe 08:54, 12 April 2025 (UTC)
• This type of large-scale procedural categorisation debate requires all relevant subcategories for all UK constituent countries to be taken into consideration (Northern Ireland would be a tricky factor) with a proper CfD entry, which would allow bulk fixes if consensus were reached that such groupings were invalid. I would be surprised if an editor of {{ping|Johnpacklambert}}'s experience would be unfamiliar with the process, but in case you are, that's what you need to do. Crowsus (talk) 02:44, 12 April 2025 (UTC)
• :There’s more. Most Members of the Suriname National team can’t vote in their county, they don’t have the same rights Surinamees citizen have. Dutch players playing for Suriname are a bit like people Born and living in England who represent Scotland, there’s no direct link with citizenship. The World as we know it isn’t designed following a strict pattern. Countries are different, but there’s only one category tree. This means you have to cheat a bit sometimes when you work on categories. Without cheating, the category system can’t work. It’s not flexibel enough. A system with labels would be superior to categories, but Wikipedia decided not to do that when they started. When you use the label Scotland it wouldn’t matter if it was a historic county of part of the UK. Cattivi (talk) 09:43, 12 April 2025 (UTC)

Hello! I’ve recently submitted a draft titled Draft:Bangladeshi Football Ultras, which is about a growing and active football supporters’ group in Bangladesh. The group has gained national attention and media coverage, and the article cites multiple reliable sources from reputed news organizations like Prothom Alo, Jugantor, Banglanews24, and RTV.

As this falls under the scope of football culture and fan organizations, I’d be grateful if any member of WikiProject Football could kindly review the draft. Your feedback or assistance in speeding up the review process would be highly appreciated.

Thank you in advance!

— Mirza Yousuf (talk) 03:37, 13 April 2025 (UTC)

File:Information.svg There is a requested move discussion at Talk:2025 CONCACAF Women's U-17 Championship#Requested move 31 March 2025 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. TarnishedPath^talk 03:59, 13 April 2025 (UTC)

Hi there. I'm a simple editor here, fan of the Albania national football team, where recently here was someone who have made repeated edits, which I thought wasn't even neccessary so I reverted once. Could somebody judge between us, thanks a lot. 217.21.153.82 (talk) 13:53, 15 April 2025 (UTC)

:What exactly is the dispute: all I can see is a revert war with no discussion? Have you even tried using a talk page to resolve? Spike 'em (talk) 14:30, 15 April 2025 (UTC)

:Also, you should inform your counterpart that you have started this discussion. Spike 'em (talk) 14:34, 15 April 2025 (UTC)

::Sorry no , I dont even know what to do I'm new here, but all I can say it's that I excpect somebody to resolve that, if it's neccessary to fill the wikitable with colors or not... 217.21.153.82 (talk) 15:16, 15 April 2025 (UTC)

::I don't know, you ca n simply see recent edits to understand what is exactly this dispute about. 217.21.153.82 (talk) 15:20, 15 April 2025 (UTC)

:::I can't tell what the 2 of you are trying to achieve. The 2 of you need to talk about it on a talk page and give reasons why the colours are or are not appropriate. You have managed to start a conversation here, and are demanding that we look into the problem without explaining what that problem is. Start by creating a similar discussion on the article talk page. Spike 'em (talk) 15:49, 15 April 2025 (UTC)

::::217.21.153.82, at Talk:Albania national football team click "New section" to start a discussion. Robby.is.on (talk) 16:06, 15 April 2025 (UTC)

I will shortly be going away for nearly 3 weeks and have very limited availability whilst I am away. As such, I would appreciate any help at Wikipedia:WikiProject Football/Nominations for deletion and page moves, adding new discussions (they can be found at Wikipedia:WikiProject Football#Article alerts, that is updated once a day by a bot), and archiving old AFDs to Wikipedia:WikiProject Football/Deletion archive. GiantSnowman 17:53, 13 April 2025 (UTC)

:Im flying tomorrow, so likely offline for 24-48 hours and then limited access for next 2 or so weeks... GiantSnowman 22:25, 16 April 2025 (UTC)

::Copy that. I'll try to keep an eye on everything. Safe travels! — Jkudlick ⚓ (talk) 13:51, 17 April 2025 (UTC)

File:Information.svg There is a requested move discussion at Talk:CD Extremadura 1924#Requested move 12 March 2025 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Valorrr ^{(lets chat)} 16:08, 17 April 2025 (UTC)

Related: Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Sportski recenzist

I happened to notice that the IP ranges in the last investigation regarding this user seem to be continuing the same behavior as before the initial temporary block resulting from the investigation. To clarify where the connection comes from, I (under a different similar username) initially reverted an attempted PROD they made in 2022 following suspected changes within Malaysia Super League at the time, followed by multiple reverts of the same user within a 24-hour period. I managed to get them blocked quickly after they got aggressive with me, and for a period after, the user had harassed me multiple times on Wikimedia (Commons, especially), an old YouTube channel, and on Telegram trying to harass me into "changing it back". Since those harassment attempts, that SPI has been made and it seems you guys are now aware of the behavior.

Also giving a courtesy ping to previously involved editors {{ping|GiantSnowman|Nehme1499|Drat8sub|Firefly|Iggy the Swan|Snowflake91|p=}}, who also seem to have experienced this user and series of IPs in the past. I bring this up here cause this same behavior is happening again, particularly with PROD notices [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=General_Aung_San_Shield&diff=1286337738&oldid=1286315575 here] and [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Malaysia_Pahang_Sports_School&diff=1286458581&oldid=1286457910 here]. Jalen Barks (Woof) 04:57, 20 April 2025 (UTC)

: Of course he is still editing, not only unregistered but also as User talk:Cenderabird. Snowflake91 (talk) 09:23, 20 April 2025 (UTC)

::What's the evidence? I suggest you re-open SPI. GiantSnowman 14:37, 20 April 2025 (UTC)

:::When I first encountered Sportski recenzist in October 2022, I had reverted this attempt at a PROD [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Liga_M3&diff=1117071457&oldid=1115830584 here], which is my basis for the similarity in PROD style. The user had harassed me off-site once and on Wikimedia projects multiple times in the year since for my full rollback of at least 24 hours worth of this user's edits in the same timeframe, plus subsequent block. Jalen Barks (Woof) 16:32, 20 April 2025 (UTC)

:::At the moment, I am uncertain on whether to take this to SPI myself or with the necessary backup. I have been hesitant to revert 93.140.45.145 for the block evasion on grounds they might know who I am after my August 2024 name change (I was formerly JalenFolf). Jalen Barks (Woof) 16:33, 20 April 2025 (UTC)

:I have gone ahead and reverted the PRODs. I will let an experienced editor assess other edits to see if we can take the IPs back to SPI. Jalen Barks (Woof) 16:58, 22 April 2025 (UTC)

Not to WP:CANVAS but I've been in a bit of a dispute with this user. The user has been advised by User:Kokoeist to leave infoboxes as league only. User:BrazilianDude70 at first thought Victor was just adding stats from Brazilian state league matches, but has since seen that he was adding cup and continental games too. User:Drmies discussed on the user talk page that there is probably ground to ask for admin action.

I interpret there as being a language issue as Victor has never added text, just digits, and has never written an edit summary or talk post. BRD70 said there could be confusion as the Portuguese Wikipedia puts all games in the infobox. The reversions are relentless and no dialogue is possible with this user.

I can't go to WP:ANI as I'm just on phone and won't be able to collect the diffs. Unknown Temptation (talk) 17:49, 17 April 2025 (UTC)

• Ping {{U|GiantSnowman}}. Drmies (talk) 19:06, 17 April 2025 (UTC)
• :he's away (see above). Spike 'em (talk) 19:59, 17 April 2025 (UTC)
• ::@Unknown Temptation: I've sent him (Victor is a 100% male name in Brazil) a message fully in Portuguese. Let me know if he continues with this approach. Also pinging Mr. @Mattythewhite who used to help me with those issues :) BRDude⁷⁰ (talk) 20:44, 17 April 2025 (UTC)
• :::Revert, warn, and then if they continue, block - it's disruptive and CIR. GiantSnowman 10:48, 18 April 2025 (UTC)
• ::::Happened again. User is not ready to listen and follow the guidelines even though @BrazilianDude70 left a message in Portuguese and @Unknown Temptation warned them several times. Kokoeist (talk) 08:57, 23 April 2025 (UTC)
• :::::Blocked for two weeks. Can someone check/tidy up recent edits? -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 09:04, 23 April 2025 (UTC)
• Just quintuple checking here, but pro/rel playoff games aren't included either, right? Soccerway seems to include such games from the first- and second-tier Mexican leagues, which I'm sure has affected tons of infoboxes. (see 2021/22 stats: 23 games on [https://us.soccerway.com/players/ivan-oswaldo-tona-olmeda/590967/ SW] vs 16 on [https://www.worldfootball.net/player_summary/ivan-tona/2/ WF]). JTtheOG (talk) 20:44, 18 April 2025 (UTC)
• :We do not include playoffs in the infobox - they are 'other' in the stats box. GiantSnowman 22:02, 18 April 2025 (UTC)

Hoping I could get some clarification on the existing league notability; does this also apply to league seasons as well? FastCube (talk) 08:06, 23 April 2025 (UTC)

:See WP:NSEASONS. GiantSnowman 10:57, 23 April 2025 (UTC)

Is there a consensus on Template:Infobox football biography to list league games only in the person's infobox stats? Why is it different from senior international matches that users are free to list appearances and goals across all competitions? ⋆｡˚꒰ঌ Clara A. Djalim ໒꒱˚｡⋆ 12:30, 22 April 2025 (UTC)

:Yes there is a consensus, this has been discussed multiple times before. And all internationals are the same standard of match and all international caps get counted, whereas for many countries and leagues and historic eras, there is not reliable data on Cup games and appearances. Joseph2302 (talk) 12:34, 22 April 2025 (UTC)

:(ec) Yes, there absolutely is consensus and has been for many years. Domestic stats for competitions other than the league are often hard to find, especially for earlier eras (e.g. there is a book that lists all players' league stats in England from 1888 to 1939, but it does not include any games in any other competitions), so the only way to be consistent is to list only league stats for everyone -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 12:56, 22 April 2025 (UTC)

::Where on this wiki? I meant... Is there any discussion regarding it? ⋆｡˚꒰ঌ Clara A. Djalim ໒꒱˚｡⋆ 23:38, 23 April 2025 (UTC)

:::Search the archive, using some keywords, at the top of the page. Seasider53 (talk) 00:14, 24 April 2025 (UTC)

::::Yeah like this is so inherent it's going to be impossible to locate the original consensus - but it's definitely there. See e.g. {{tl|Infobox football biography}} which confirms it is "Club domestic league appearances and goals" only. GiantSnowman 01:33, 24 April 2025 (UTC)

Hello from german Wikipedia: I am wondering if the name is "Don Kitchenbrand" or if it is "Don Kichenbrand" (without the "t"). Reason: Open [https://www.rangers.co.uk/article/don-kichenbrand-1933-2025/1i8sA9wso8oICClY7n82Je reference 14] in the article (currently the last one) and you see the title "Don Kichenbrand (1933-2025)". When I google the name, I find both variants, even in newspapers. As a final resort, the grave stone is expected to show the correct name. So which one is the correct one, or shall we mention both variants? --Wurgl (talk) 06:59, 24 April 2025 (UTC)

More frequently of late, I have been seeing like recent ones such as at 2024–25_AFC_Champions_League_Two_group_stage where the time of goal scored has been changed, usually by one minute lower than what is in the official report, and quoting YouTube in the edit summary (i.e. source : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQ_KRt0V9Jk). Consider the frequency of such edits as per {{ping|RKC_Vakwai}} in several major tournaments (at Special:Contributions/RKC_Vakwai).

A few issues here, and the smaller ones are the goal might have been scored at 31{{char|'}}42{{char|″}} and the new edit says 31, based on someone watch the video whereas AFC report will have 32 as it is in the 32nd minute. So I am uncomfortable that the article provides a reference (usually a primary source - AFC / FIFA) and the text shows something different, and very difficult to find the source later unless you are trawling through the edit summaries. And I am uncomfortable that the text is also wrong.

More broadly, this is increasing in frequency because more full match videos are now available to watch. Should the watching of a YouTube video constitute a valid reference for Wikipedia (see WP:ORMEDIA), and if so, should it be added to the match report to supplement the official report? Or is it a form of WP:OR, and its use is replacing a valid primary reference? Or is it something in between? Has there been consensus in the past on this subject to inform the answers to these questions? Matilda Maniac (talk) 22:54, 24 April 2025 (UTC)

:My opinion: Statistics from official, primary sources (AFC, FIFA, etc.) should be used. The score bug shown on screen is not guaranteed to be accurate.  skovhund  t  23:30, 24 April 2025 (UTC)

::First of all, the example cited is not a discrepancy, but a misunderstanding of how football scores are reported. 31:05 is in the 32nd minute, so the two sources agree, but the editor making the change is just misunderstanding one of them. Beyond that, if you're determining for yourself exactly when the ball crossed the goal line and then checking the onscreen clock, that crosses the line into original research. That methodology won't always be unambiguous; it presumes that the onscreen clock is accurate. In doing that you're making a fair number of hidden assumptions and decisions that are properly left to the authors of reliable secondary sources, not Wikipedia's own editors. Sir Sputnik (talk) 23:43, 24 April 2025 (UTC)

Greetings, is there any precedent in how the name(s) of this player should be listed in the first line?

The long and short of it: Cervera was born in Argentina and his full name, in the Hispanic custom, is Tobías Ariel Cervera Cadi. However, he is an international for Syria through his maternal line. In Syria he is known as Tobias Al-Qadi, quite logically using his one Arab surname.

The thing is, the page presents "Tobias Al-Qadi" as being his sole legal name, while "Tobías Cervera" is treated like a nickname, as if it was Pelé or Kaká. I strongly assume he retains his Argentine citizenship (2025 Argentine Primera División suggests so, as it would be very hard for an irregular Syrian international to get a work permit) so I don't feel like the Argentine name should be jettisoned.

There is also the matter of WP:OR. The source for "Tobias Al-Qadi" being his name is in Arabic, and Qadi is quite clearly a variation of Cadi. Where do we get the information that his name should be with a Q when otherwise it has a C?

This feels like the case of Ben Brereton Díaz, just even more complicated. Unknown Temptation (talk) 08:58, 25 April 2025 (UTC)

:I would suggest using what most English-language sources do, but there don't seem to be many! I would have his full Argentinian name as the lead / name in infobox with his Arabic name as the "also known as" alternative. I guess he may have different legal names in different countries, but we should show the one he is best known by. Spike 'em (talk) 10:06, 25 April 2025 (UTC)

::Ultimately we should follow the MOS, some combination of MOS:FULLNAME, MOS:BIOALTNAME, MOS:BIRTHNAME and possibly others! Spike 'em (talk) 10:33, 25 April 2025 (UTC)

:::Agree with Spike - have it as 'also known as'. Similar to the English-born players in China. GiantSnowman 14:01, 25 April 2025 (UTC)

::::For Lebanese players I usually use a combination of full name and birth name in the infobox, as can be seen with Daniel Lajud or Omar Bugiel. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 14:24, 25 April 2025 (UTC)

Reposted and updated version of original now archived.

As main contributor to this article, I flag up for attention of others on the project a number of candidates for the list that are already wiki-articled and known or believed to have been killed in or died as a result of circumstances brought on by the war (eg execution, in enemy captivity, effects of wounds etc) but which so far lack a reliable citation regarding their death which is preconditional to inclusion in the list. A few have no death circumstances described in the text of their article but I note have been put on category lists that suggest someone knew/believed they died in wartime circumstances. I also include those whose death circumstances are disputed - see their talk pages for further detail - and are in need of a conclusive ruling in or out.

• Josef Adelbrecht (Austria) - categorised as Austrian military personnel killed in the war. His German wikipedia article states he was killed on the Russian front NW of Moscow. Disputable death date.
• Dragutin Babic (Yugoslavia) - there is a source in Croat language but it is unclear to me it indicates manner of death
• Giuseppe Bazzeghin (Italy) - more clarity please about the circumstances of his death, understand he was killed in Venice prior to its liberation from fascist rule in 1945.
• Josef Bergmaier (Germany)
• Jozsef Eisenhoffer aka Joszef Aczal (Hungary) - also disputed death circumstances
• Bronislaw Fichtel (Poland) - disputed death date (see talk page)
• Hermann Flick (Germany) - stated to have been killed in action near Leningrad in 1944 without citation.
• Josef Fruhwirth (Austria) - categorised as Austrian military personnel killed in WWII. His article in German wikipedia has citation to an Austrian newspaper report of his death which I find unreadable, I can only make out he died on the 'Ostfront' (Eastern Front). His German wikipedia article locates his death in Russia at Khalikovo (a place that appears to have no article).
• Nikolai Gromov (Russia) - Russian language profile says he 'died at the front' in 1943 without further detail. More informative sources if found preferred.
• Gustavas Gvildys (Lithuania) - His Lithuanian wikipedia article states without citation he died in Konigsberg (now Kaliningrad) when it was encircled by the Soviet forces during the East Prussian campaign in 1945. Any more definite sourcing?
• Karl-Richard Idlane (Estonia) - Death cause and death dates (both in 1942) disputable.
• Karl Kanhauser (Austria/Czechoslovakia) - German wikipedia states without citation he was drafted into the German army towards end of WWII and deployed to Yugoslavia where he was reported missing, no final year given.
• Franz Krumm (Germany) - There is a link to the German Volksbund (war graves commission) website but it does not directly connect to his details and I lack expertise to interrogate the site.
• Willi Lindner (Germany) - source in German language, not fully clear about death details
• Johann Luef (Austria) - his German wikipedia article indicates he died of wounds in hospital in East Prussia. Can anyone more fluent in German make out further detail in the newspaper report used as reference?

:UPDATE - I have been better able to decipher the news story and have now included him with the citation on the list.Cloptonson (talk) 19:51, 25 April 2025 (UTC)

• Josef Madlmayer (Austria)
• Frank Manders (Great Britain) - Would welcome information that can definitely connect the airman who died at Sutton Coldfield to the airman of that name who is known to the Commonwealth War Graves Commission (CWGC) and is buried at Maidenhead, England. (There is a minor date discrepancy regarding his death.)
• Artur Marczewski (Poland) - his Polish and German wikipedia articles state without citation he disappeared in January 1945 following Red Army advance into Poland, where he had been working for the Germans as a factory official.
• Vladimir Markov (footballer) (Russia) - Stated in Olympedia to have died in Leningrad in 1942, which coincided with the long running siege of the city. Can evidence be found for treating him as a victim of the siege?
• Alexander Martinek (Austria/Germany) - Death date is disputable, the German wikipedia page gives this as in 1945 and cites it to the Volksbund website but the citation is not linked to a web page.
• Otto Martwig (Germany) - stated to have died in battle of Berlin without citation in German wikipedia.
• August Mobs (Germany) - said to have been killed in air raid.

::UPDATE - I have discovered in the External Link in the English article to the Eintracht Frankfurt archive shows a cutting from newspaper "Kicker-Fussball" which summarily states he was victim of an air raid ("Terrorangriff" in German) on Frankfurt am Main: [http://www.eintracht-archiv.de/moebs.html August Möbs at eintracht-archiv.de]. It remains to be ascertained if he was a purely civilian victim or happened to be a serviceman. Cloptonson (talk) 18:29, 23 April 2025 (UTC)

• Alberto Nahmias (Greece) - death circumstances disputed; his English article gives two different years of death in 1980s without source. His Greek wikipedia biography states he was arrested by the Germans in 1942 because of Jewish origins and further trace was lost, possibly because of being put to death, although also said to have emigrated post-war. Can someone find sources that settle this? The nearest named individual recorded from Greek Jews listed in the Testimony Pages of Yad Vashem is an Alberto Nachmias (sic), born in Greece, died at Auschwitz, age given as 42 but no birth or death date given. However out of the estimated 6M Jews killed in the Holocaust only 4.5M are known to Yad Vashem.
• Slavko Pavletic(Croatia) - no death circumstance details given in text but has been categorised as a Croatian civilian killed in the war. In Croatian wikipedia, he is stated with citation to have been executed following Communist seizure of power in Croatia with 'date of execution' stated unknown, though the infobox gives a precise date of 27 May 1945 and death place as Zagreb.
• Kurts Plade (Latvia) - Repatriated to Germany as a Baltic German, his Latvian wikipedia article states he was 'killed' (no further detail) in February 1945 in Poznan, Poland. I note his death coincided with the Soviet siege of Poznan.
• Bernardo Poli (Italy) - Italian wikipedia indicates he died in 'an unspecified war accident' serving as an airman. Only citation in English wikipedia does not indicate manner of his death.
• Fyodor Rimsha (Russia) - Stated without citation in English and Russian wikipedias to have died in siege of Leningrad, allegation not supported by cited sources Olympedia and Russian language Profile, the latter of which states his fate after 1914 "is unknown".

:UPDATE - I have found a citation to a recent Russian newspaper article which mentions him in passing as one of three pre-Russian Revolution national players who died in Leningrad during the siege https://portal-kultura.ru/articles/history/341863-no-gorod-nash-sporil-s-nelegkoy-sudboyu-futbol-v-blokadnom-leningrade/. I have added it to the English wiki article, though I would welcome if more definite published evidence could be produced.Cloptonson (talk) 08:37, 23 April 2025 (UTC)

• Holger Salin (Finland) - No decisive death date in most wikipedias. Although Finnuser reported a newspaper report states only he was killed in an accident, his German wikipedia article states that after his last international match (1943) he "fell..in the Continuation War" [term given to Finland's hostilities with the Soviet Union over 1941-45 in concert with Germany] in '1943 or 1944'. I do wonder if he was serving in the Finnish Armed Forces though. (Accidents as well as combat killed a number of players on the list.)
• Aristotel Samsuri (Albania) - Reportedly executed in German concentration camp in Greece as a Communist partisan between 1942/1944, but was claimed by the postwar Communist regime of Albania to have escaped and survived before proclaiming him a martyr in 1981.
• Gennaro Santillo (Italy) - Categorised as Italian military personnel killed in the war but no indications of military service on Italian wikipedia. Would like to be more certain of his status (mil or civ) before adding him.
• George Scoones (expatriate Briton who played in France) - French wikipedia (not English) give him same death date in 1940 as a soldier known to the CWGC in this link: https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/2278867/george-w-scoones/ See talk page - any agreement this is likely to be the same man? Cattivi found link to a French newspaper that suggest he is the same man. I am awaiting answers to questions I have put him.
• Harry Spencer (footballer) (New Zealand, previously played in England) - There are similarities with a New Zealand soldier known to the CWGC (see talk page of article). Can someone find confirmation they are the same man? In 2022 NZFC said he was investigating but has so far not responded.
• Erwin Stührk (Germany) - disputable death date, death place given in Volksbund site not easy to ascertain as it only gives German form of name rather than its vernacular.
• Ludwik Szabakiewicz (Poland) - disputable death details, particularly date, between English and Polish wikipedia articles
• Hugo Väli (Estonia) - originally listed by Olympedia as died in Soviet camp in Siberia, the source now falls in with information he died in Tallinn in September 1944, making it questionable whether he was in Soviet captivity or died as a result.
• Willi Völker (Germany) - uncertainty about death location, identification questionable due to disputable birthplace details.
• Heinz Warnken (Germany) - German wikipedia gives him as gefallen (fallen) in 1943 but no detail of precise death date or death place.

:*Warnken has some club career bits on the German wiki which needs copying over. Govvy (talk) 08:47, 23 April 2025 (UTC)

::*Thank you, but the concern of this talkpoint is seeking evidence for their deaths.Cloptonson (talk) 14:39, 23 April 2025 (UTC)

There may be additions coming onto the list so I encourage watch this space! Others are welcome to add. Please let us know if sources are found and added into their articles.Cloptonson (talk) 14:30, 22 April 2025 (UTC)

Hello,

I have recently created an article about Nassim Courail, a Belgian-Moroccan footballer, and would appreciate your feedback and review before it is published. The article covers his career, achievements, and his move to Australia. I have included relevant references and external links to support the information.

Could you please review the content for accuracy, formatting, and whether it meets Wikipedia's guidelines for notability and sources? Any suggestions for improvement would be greatly appreciated.

Here is the link to the draft article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Na2sc/sandbox

Thank you for your time and assistance! Na2sc (talk) 12:17, 27 April 2025 (UTC)

I won't have access to my mobile device for a little while but I am very curious what those monstrous fifth-level sub-section headings on Féerine Belhadj and Wassa Sangaré look like on Safari. JTtheOG (talk) 07:32, 28 April 2025 (UTC)

:Not needed at all. I formatted them both according to our Manual of Style. --SuperJew (talk) 08:49, 28 April 2025 (UTC)

:{{ping|ProudWatermelon}} This concerns some articles you have created, the headings you are creating (and other formatting) does not match the standards on en.wiki. Spike 'em (talk) 09:50, 28 April 2025 (UTC)

Hello everyone,

I am requesting feedback on a draft article I am working on: [Draft:Rova Roșiori de Vede](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft:Rova_Ro%C8%99iori_de_Vede), about a Romanian football club.

I would appreciate any comments regarding the article’s notability, references, and structure to help it meet Wikipedia's standards for publication.

If anyone is also willing to contribute by polishing or improving the draft directly, their help would be highly appreciated.

Thank you very much for your time and support!

Alexandru1223 (talk) 10:10, 28 April 2025 (UTC)

{{tl|Canada Soccer}} appears to be broken, I think due to an issue at the CSA website with profiles, as they just redirect to the homepage. Can anybody please look into this? GiantSnowman 19:28, 26 April 2025 (UTC)

:It's basically anyone who is not a current national team player that's having this issue. It's been happening for about a month or two. Players such as Alphonso Davies work fine, it's the former players that seems to be the issue. Not sure what happened on their end. Is there a way to make the template link display an archive link? RedPatch (talk) 21:06, 28 April 2025 (UTC)

Does anyone know about relevant sources in which the primary topic is the rivalry between these two teams? I came across it and it's yet another international rivalry page giving a military history lesson and a list of results separated by decades. I'd be amazed if these two countries took a football match passively, so I'm not nominating for deletion, but the page is really not showing me anything good. Unknown Temptation (talk) 18:53, 16 April 2025 (UTC)

:I have processed the nomination. A total of 14 matches over more than 70 years does not make a rivalry. — Jkudlick ⚓ (talk) 22:25, 16 April 2025 (UTC)

::Going back to this article, there is national and domestic, the problem with the article it's focusing on the national teams and isn't on all the problems of the domestic clubs which have had even greater issues. It's actually a much larger subject than what people realise. If done right you could easily have a good article. The merge idea (at AfD) of sports into one article would actually balloon and isn't a good idea. Govvy (talk) 08:20, 23 April 2025 (UTC)

:::I had actually initially voted for keep, but after being asked by GiantSnowman for more sources I found almost nothing in really consistent. But the sports rivalry as a whole (football, basketball, volleyball) exists, I believe that everything could be encompassed in a single place. Svartner (talk) 23:23, 29 April 2025 (UTC)

1998–99 Manchester United F.C. season has been nominated for a good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. Z1720 (talk) 05:36, 3 May 2025 (UTC)

I wanted to highlight some odd editing patterns on Christian Volesky over the last day, as I don't want to continue to be part of any edit warring myself, but action needs to be taken.

On April 29th, a photo of Volesky was added to the infobox and it remained for a few days. Then starting on May 3rd an IP user made multiple edits to remove the infobox photo without an explanation, to which another user and myself reverted the edits for what seemed like vandalism. After that, a second IP address edited the article to remove the image and caption again. I reverted the article back again, and then a newly created user account, Special:Contributions/EliSli deleted the infobox image with "picture, not playing" as their summary and in the next edit added their own image directly to the article in the intro, rather than the infobox. After this I made some edits to restore the previous infobox photo and move the newly added photo to the main article text. After this a third IP address made an edit to delete the infobox photo with "Not playing" as the summary. Finally EliSli made their third edit to the article, which was to add their photo to the lead of the article despite it being present already in the main body.

If the "action" photo should be in the infobox, please let me know, but this situation has gotten a bit over the top. Christiangamer7 (talk) 17:57, 4 May 2025 (UTC)

:{{re|Christiangamer7}} I moved the "action" image into the infobox, removed it from the article as redundant, and warned the registered account about edit warring. Hopefully that is the end of it. Should it continue, I would recommend taking it to WP:ANEW, but please {{tl|ping}} me if you do so I can add a comment. — Jkudlick ⚓ (talk) 01:34, 5 May 2025 (UTC)

::In the IP's defense, the previous photo is one of the worst infobox pictures I have seen (maybe on par with this one). Nehme₁₄₉₉ 02:12, 5 May 2025 (UTC)

:::agree with Nehme. The 'action' shot is much better as it actually shows his whole face. I cropped it to remove a bunch of the empty space. RedPatch (talk) 10:44, 5 May 2025 (UTC)

The Bill McGarry article says he was manager of Saudi Arabia between 1976 and 1977, and then became Newcastle manager from 1977 to 1980. [https://www.wolves.co.uk/news/club/20250501-david-woodfield-1943-2025/ This] says that David Woodfield became assistant to McGarry at Newcastle, but makes no mention of Saudi Arabia. [https://uk.news.yahoo.com/serving-saudi-arabia-dave-woodfield-172000549.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAADcLcpHXaT5r34GBBJbEsZe-cAlYAl0G9soXoRbied8Whhf58dE5tMbJjVAMSvOGXFWQGQBBjWf63HYhTWLOOTw7js0H_f_4qGG5zVdmsKHyc_9BiwRWO7DwoWGGHP8tjJDD_-w8LrEEnY4kZRoOVuXxpGJtwfbOMD4ZkVL8cJDU This] suggests that Woodfield moved to Qatar in 1978 and was involved with Saudi Arabia, with/under McGarry, at the 1979 Gulf Cup of Nations. The chronology therefore does not tally up. Can anyone help me unthread it? Options include:

1. Was Woodfield involved with McGarry at Saudi Arabia before Qatar in 1978? and/or
2. Was Woodfield the manager of Saudi Arabia in 1979, with no involvement from McGarry? [https://www.ksa-team.com/english/matches.php?id=285 This] suggests that Woodfield that could be the case. Woodfield is mentioned at Saudi Arabia national football team#Coaching history but not at {{tl|Saudi Arabia national football team managers}}.

GiantSnowman 22:01, 1 May 2025 (UTC)

:I only have a tangential comment for now: Due to less commitment in international football, it was more common back then to be able to handle both a club and a national team (in some capacity) at the same time. Geschichte (talk) 05:35, 6 May 2025 (UTC)

::Woodfield was a coach under McGarry in Saudi Arabia and was later the Saudi manager for the 1979 Gulf Cup. Hack (talk) 05:39, 6 May 2025 (UTC)

How come WP:SEASONS#Featured articles includes some of the articles on individual matches which have reached FA status but not all? For example, 1927 FA Cup final is listed but 1923 FA Cup final (also an FA) is not. I presume it's down to incorrect tagging of the articles, but which are tagged incorrectly - the ones listed there or the ones not listed there? I imagine it's the former, as the 1925 FA Cup final was not a season...... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 08:40, 6 May 2025 (UTC)

:The Scope section at WP:SEASONS seems to suggest that cup final articles should be tagged. SounderBruce 08:46, 6 May 2025 (UTC)

Hello here, excuse-me, despite discusions [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Football/Archive_169#h-Repeated_edits-20250415135300 here] and at articles talk page, he has done it again almost the same edit, please somebody intervene and explain him... 217.21.153.82 (talk) 11:41, 28 April 2025 (UTC)

:Both of you need to stop your edit-warring. I have placed warnings on both your user talk pages. — Jkudlick ⚓ (talk) 12:24, 28 April 2025 (UTC)

::I only didn't noticed that, I only did a total revert, thanks for collaborations 217.21.153.82 (talk) 16:17, 28 April 2025 (UTC)

:::Hello again. Following consensus reached with previous disputing user, now another dispute it's happening with an ip user: he pretends that Serbia national football team couldn't take to account stats. of former Yugoslavia national football team. See [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Albania_national_football_team&action=history edit history]. 217.21.153.82 (talk) 11:20, 7 May 2025 (UTC)

This stub for a soccer stadium has been unsourced for over 15 years. The only other language article has a dead link for its only source. Please add reliable sources. Bearian (talk) 14:24, 10 May 2025 (UTC)

:This article may as well be deleted. Ewyourfaceew (talk) 16:47, 10 May 2025 (UTC)

::Agreed. Non-potable stadium that was home to a 4th tier semi-pro side. RedPatch (talk) 17:32, 10 May 2025 (UTC)

:Did find [https://www.newspapers.com/article/el-paso-times-patriots-in-action/172139224/ a source] for its first match, but it's a short blurb. Could just be merged into a new section in the El Paso Patriots article, since the stadium was not nearly as big as claimed in the article. SounderBruce 05:49, 11 May 2025 (UTC)

Hello, last April somebody created an article about this club - FC Zeta Milano - founded by some YouTuber which plays in Terza Categoria - the lowest tier of Italian football. It is definitely non-notable on footballing terms, but I would like to ask if you think it could be on WP:GNG terms. Thanks, Angelo (talk) 15:42, 11 May 2025 (UTC)

I have been waiting on my review for my creation of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft:Cesar_Ruvalcaba for over a month, I understand the wait time, but it seems a new article Cesar Ruvalcaba has been created in the meantime. I feel as if our two articles can be merged, if possible, as I feel my current draft is more fleshed-out. Thanks! Ewyourfaceew (talk) 18:51, 10 May 2025 (UTC)

:User:GiantSnowman has helped me in the past with this. RedPatch (talk) 13:53, 12 May 2025 (UTC)

::{{done}}. GiantSnowman 17:30, 12 May 2025 (UTC)

Fandi Ahmad has been nominated for a good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. Z1720 (talk) 02:19, 13 May 2025 (UTC)

Despite the tag marking this as a historical, this is still being cited in discussions as if it still existed. I therefore propose that we comment out (i.e. ) the entire content and just leave the tag. If people then want to see what the guideline used to look like, they can edit the page to show it. Geschichte (talk) 05:33, 6 May 2025 (UTC)

:Will this make any difference to people citing it? Hiding it seems to be a bad idea: if you want to move it create a subpage and link to it, or just remove outright. Spike 'em (talk) 08:23, 6 May 2025 (UTC)

::It is too easy to skip the {{notice}} box. To strikeout 1–4, "Teams that have...", "England: Clubs that...", and the two first under league notability may help the reader. Kaffet i halsen (talk) 09:41, 13 May 2025 (UTC)

Several articles, for instance IFK Mariehamn and SC Freiburg II, list players with the flag of and abbreviation for Åland. I had changed that to the flag of Finland, because that is the country that Åland is part of, and that is the national team that these players would first qualify for. The Åland team is not recognised by UEFA or FIFA. We don't list players for Catalonia or Île-de-France or Sicily either, we list them as Spanish/French/Italian players. My edits have been reverted "per consensus". Which is fine by me if that is the consensus, but I haven't been able to find any discussion about this in these archives, let alone a consensus. So I'm raising it here. What is the consensus? 93.117.220.196 (talk) 09:42, 12 May 2025 (UTC)

:{{re|Coolguy22468}} reverted 93.117.220.196, so they should be able to explain their changes. Robby.is.on (talk) 09:47, 12 May 2025 (UTC)

:::It was agreed Template talk:Football squad start#Request for Comment on Nationalities that players from dependent/self-governing territories should use thir local flag even if they aren't a FIFA member. C. 22468 Talk to me 11:26, 12 May 2025 (UTC)

::::I don't want to take anything away from the merits of the arguments (and your position certainly has merits, don't get me wrong), but that was basically a discussion between two users on the talk page of a template. Does that constitute a discussion and a consensus? 93.117.220.196 (talk) 12:00, 12 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::That was the consensus reached. If you think there may be a better option feel free to open a new request for comment. C. 22468 Talk to me 12:11, 12 May 2025 (UTC)

::::I can't see a clear consensus reached: I certainly can't see that an uninvolved person closed the RfC. There is a comment from another editor (The Gnome) that seems to be unresolved. You and GiantSnowman seemed to come to an agreement, but there are others involved. Spike 'em (talk) 13:08, 12 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::As I say if you think there should be another RfC please raise one. C. 22468 Talk to me 13:11, 12 May 2025 (UTC)

::::::That RFC did not have a formal close from an uninvolved User to say whether there's a consensus or not, so should not be using used as a binding consensus. Notwithstanding the fact that it had minimal participation and this WikiProject wasn't involved or notified, and there hadn't been a WP:RFCBEFORE discussion. That being said, having this discussion and trying to get a proper consensus is much more sensible. Joseph2302 (talk) 13:59, 12 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::::Realistically I think the best option would be to only use FIFA recognised associations as otherwise it causes dispute. C. 22468 Talk to me 14:06, 12 May 2025 (UTC)

::::::::I also agree that FIFA nations should be used I.e. Finland flag not Aland flag and similar for other non-FIFA areas like Catalunya. Joseph2302 (talk) 16:31, 12 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::::::The main issue was the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man which although part of England for footballing purposes they are not part of England or the United Kingdom politically. C. 22468 Talk to me 21:54, 12 May 2025 (UTC)

Would it be an option to leave out the flags in case of doubt, perhaps with a footnote? I understand the issue with Guernsey, Jersey and the Isle of Man. The islands are not part of a country but are not fully sovereign either, they have their own league system and do not have an official national team. The difference with Åland is that those clubs are part of the Finnish league system and the Football Association of Finland, and players from the islands represent Finland, like Daniel Sjölund and Annica Sjölund. I would say that players from Åland would count as Finnish, until the islands get an official national team, like for instance the Faroe Islands. 93.117.220.196 (talk) 09:30, 13 May 2025 (UTC)

:The Isle of Man and Channel Islands are in footballing terms the same as Aland in that they are explicitly part the English FA and clubs from the islands play in the leagues of England (FC Isle of Man, Guernsey FC and Jersey Bulls FC playing in England) but there is also a minor leauge on the islands. Players from the Isle of Man and the Channel Islands have previously represented England at football. C. 22468 Talk to me 10:49, 13 May 2025 (UTC)