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Talk:Russian Civil War

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Result in infobox

Per MILMOS: As a general rule, this guidance should only be used where it is helpful, and should not be used as grounds for extensive disruptive renovations of existing articles. This is actually in line with Wikipedia:Ignore all rules. The previous version was here for years, therefore is consensual. So I strongly encourage you, @Remsense to present solid arguments how "see aftermath" is more helpful and meaningful for a casual reader who doesn't want to read lengthy texts, otherwise the [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Russian_Civil_War&oldid=1217103011 previous version] will be restored. Oloddin (talk) 02:38, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

:That's not how consensus works, and that's not how IAR works. Guidelines themselves summarize existing sitewide consensus that generally isn't overridable by whatever you feel should be the case on an individual article: you actually have to provide a concrete reason why your preferred version is better for the article, which you haven't, and you likely cannot. Infoboxes were not designed to accurately summarize complex, subtle information, that's what prose is for. The previous infobox was one of the most egregious attempts to write the article in the infobox that I've ever seen. "People don't want to read" is not a good reason on an encyclopedia. They have to if they want to know what actually happened, I'm afraid. We shouldn't give them contradictory, malformed bullshit in the place of reading. Remsense诉 02:42, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

::You introduced [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Russian_Civil_War&diff=1217153788&oldid=1217103011 these changes] that were challenged, therefore have to provide reasons for it and to establish consensus. replied to: RE: That's not how consensus works, and that's not how IAR works. You actually have to provide a reason why your preferred version is better for the article, which you haven't, and you likely cannot. Oloddin (talk) 02:48, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

:::The reasons are those at MOS:MILHIST, which is a community-level consensus that can't be overridden locally because you feel like it. What's your reason for why this article is so special? Remsense诉 02:49, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

::::I already cited it. "Only used where helpful". So if you think that it was "too much", you should have initiated a discussion first here. Oloddin (talk) 02:56, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

:::::Nope. You have to say why it's not helpful, me and the guideline (i.e. preexisting community-wide consensus) agree that it's helpful. Remsense诉 02:56, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

::::::Anyway, the guidance is not meant to apply mindlessly without consideration in any particular case. And small discussion among several editors is hardly a "community-wide consensus" for a matter that affects so many articles. Oloddin (talk) 03:07, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

:::::::If you dislike the guideline, then open another RfC about it. Keep in mind that it's not just MILHIST, it's the commonsense application of WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE to military history subjects. (I already know what is plainly stated there about section links, so don't bother. This is an accepted case where it's best not avoided to put a section link.)

:::::::Failing that, you have yet to make an actual argument for why it's "mindless", e.g. why this article should be treated differently from every other one, which is what you'll be needing. Remsense诉 03:09, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

::::::::Articles are not uniform actually. Oloddin (talk) 03:17, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

:::::::::Let me know when you have that argument. Remsense诉 03:18, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

::::::::WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE says that the purpose of infoboxes is to give key facts. "See aftermath" is not about that.

::::::::For now I'll put Bolshevik victory with sources. Oloddin (talk) 03:48, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

:::::::::Right, the point is that if key facts can't be related at a glance, it's better not to try and leave the parameter blank.

:::::::::Simply "Bolshevik victory" is fine by me, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's deemed oversimplistic and therefore too complex to be summed up in the infobox by others. Remsense诉 03:55, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

::::::::::Yes, and this is where a disagreement starts.

::::::::::Then "see aftermath" can be used in addition to victory, it's also acceptable by the guidelines. Oloddin (talk) 04:05, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

{{-}}

= RFC: Choose an infobox =

{{archive top|In this RfC, editors try to decide how much information we ought to present in the infobox of our article on the Russian Civil War. We don't reach consensus, but we do reach rough consensus, which is an idiosyncratic Wikipedian concept meaning a clear majority of good faith contributors taking into account our policies and guidelines. The rough consensus is that the infobox needs to be a great deal briefer. Of the two options presented, editors clearly prefer B. They also feel that option B is still too expansive.{{pb}}The RfC framer describes both options as "massive", and with only a few exceptions, editors agree that this is accurate. We're encyclopaedists. Our article should summarize the conflict. The infobox should then summarize the article, boiling it down to key facts only.{{pb}}The outcome of this RfC is that editors may put in option B, and after they have done so, may further edit option B to reduce the bloat. Editors are asked please not to restore option A or make edits that increase the rendered size or byte count of the infobox.—S Marshall T/C 19:17, 14 June 2024 (UTC)|OPTION B OR BRIEFER}}

We seem to have two different ideas about how much information should be in the infobox for this article. Here are the two most recent versions. Which do you prefer? WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:01, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

class="wikitable"

|+ Infobox options

Massive Version AMassive Version B
{{Infobox military conflict

| conflict = Russian Civil War

| partof = the Russian Revolution, the aftermath of World War I, and the interwar period

| image = 370px

| caption = Clockwise from top left:{{flatlist|

}}

| date = 7 November 1917{{snd}}16 June 1923{{sfn|Mawdsley|2007|pp=3, 230}}Последние бои на Дальнем Востоке. М., Центрполиграф, 2005. {{nwr|({{Age in months, weeks and days |month1=11|day1=07|year1=1917|month2=06|day2=16|year2=1923}})}}

| place = Former Russian Empire

| result = *Bolshevik victory

  • Partial victory by independence movements (see {{slink|#Aftermath}})

| combatants_header = Main belligerents

| combatant1 = {{Ubl

|Bolsheviks:

| {{flagdeco|Russian SFSR|1918}} Russian SFSR
(1917–22)

| {{flagicon image|Flag of the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic (1919–1929).svg}} Ukrainian SSR
({{flagicon image|Flag of Ukrainian People's Republic of the Soviets.svg|size=15px}} 1917–18; 1918;
1919–22)

| {{flagicon image|Flag of the Byelorussian Soviet Socialist Republic (1919-1927).svg}} Byelorussian SSR
({{flagicon image|Flag_of_Byelorussian_SSR_(1919-1927).png|size=15px}} 1919; {{flagicon image|Flag of the Lithuanian-Byelorussian SSR.svg|size=15px}} 1919–20;
1920–22)

| {{flagicon image|Ru transcaucasia1922.png}} Transcaucasian SFSR (1922)

| {{flagicon image|Flag of the Soviet Union (1922–1923).svg}} Soviet Union
(after 1922)

}}

{{Collapsible list

| framestyle=border:none; padding:0;

| title = Also{{nobold|:}}

| {{flagicon image|Socialist red flag.svg}} Bessarabian SSR
(1919)

| {{flagicon image|Socialist red flag.svg}} Finnish SWR
(1918)

| {{flagicon image|Socialist red flag.svg}} D-KRSR
(1918)

| {{flagicon image|Socialist red flag.svg}} Harbin Soviet
(1917–18)

| {{flagicon image|Socialist red flag.svg}} Odessa SR
(1918)

| {{flagicon image|Socialist red flag.svg}} Taurida SSR
(1918)

| {{flagicon image|Baku Commune.png}} Baku Commune
(1918)

| {{flagicon image|Socialist red flag.svg}} Erzincan Soviet

| {{flagicon image|Flag of the Commune of the Working People of Estonia.svg}} Estonian Commune
(1918–19)

| {{flagicon image|Flag of the Latvian Socialist Soviet Republic (1918–1920).svg}} Latvian SSR
(1918–20)

| {{flagicon image|Flag of the Lithuanian-Byelorussian SSR.svg}} Lithuanian SSR
(1918–19)

| {{flagicon image|Iskolata karogs.svg}} Iskolat
(1917–18)

| {{flagdeco|Far Eastern Republic}} Far Eastern Republic
(1920–22)

| {{flagicon image|Flag of the Galician SSR.svg}} Galician SSR
(1920)

| {{flagicon image|Socialist red flag.svg}} Polrewkom
(1920)

| {{flagicon image|Flag of Persian Socialist Soviet Republic.svg}} Persian SSR
(1920–21)

| {{flagicon image|Flag of the Armenian Soviet Socialist Republic (1922).svg}} Armenian SSR
(1920–22)

| {{flagicon image|Flag of the Azerbaijan Soviet Socialist Republic (1920).svg}} Azerbaijan SSR
(1920–22)

| {{flagicon image|Socialist red flag.svg}} Mughan Soviet Republic (1919)

| {{flagicon image|Flag of the Georgian Soviet Socialist Republic (1921–1922).svg}} Georgian SSR
(1921–22)

| {{flagicon image|Flag of the SSR Abkhazia.svg}} SSR Abkhazia
(after 1921)

| {{flagicon image|Flag of Khiva 1920-1923.svg}} Khorezm PSR
(after 1920)

| {{flagicon image|Flag of the Bukharan People's Soviet Republic.svg}} Bukharan PSR
(after 1920)

}}

----

{{ubl

| Supported by:

| {{Flagicon image|Flag of the Chinese Communist Party (Pre-1996).svg}} Chinese communists
(1917–23)

| {{flagicon image|Socialist red flag.svg}} Red Latvian Riflemen
(1917–20)

| {{flagicon image|Flag of the People's Republic of Mongolia (1921-1924).svg}} Mongolian People's Party (1920–23)

|{{flagicon image|Flag of United Kingdom.svg}} Murmansk Legion{{efn|Viena expedition#British Intervention}}
(1918–19)}}

| combatant2 = {{Ubl

|{{nowrap|{{flagicon image|Flag of Russia.svg}} Russian Republic{{Efn|De facto deposed after the Bolshevik Coup of November 1917; formally abolished in January 1918 after the dissolution of the Constituent Assembly. The White movement then promised to convey a new constituent assembly and reestablish the state accordingly with its decisions.}}}}
(1917–18)}}

----

{{Ubl

|White movement{{nobold|:}}

| {{flagicon image|Flag of Russia.svg}} South Russia
(1917–19; Mar–Apr,
Apr–Nov 1920)

| {{flagicon image|Flag of Russia.svg}} Russian State
(1918–20)

| {{flagicon image|Flag of Russia.svg}} Priamurye
(after 1921)

}}

{{Collapsible list

| framestyle=border:none; padding:0;

| title = {{nowrap|Also{{nobold|:}}}}

| {{flagicon image|Flag_of_the_Ural_government_(1918).svg}} Provisional Regional Government of the Urals
(1918)

| {{flagicon image|Flag of Provisional Siberian Government.svg}} Omsk Siberian Government (1918)

| {{flagicon image|Flag of Provisional Siberian Government.svg}} Vladivostok Siberian Government (1918)

| {{flagdeco|Russia}} Transcaspian Government (1918–20)

| {{flagicon image|Flag of Provisional Siberian Government.svg}} Transbaikal Republic
(1917–20)

| {{flagicon image|Socialist red flag.svg}} Komuch
(1918)

| {{flagicon image|Flag of Russia.svg}} North Russia
(1918, 1918–20)

| {{flagicon image|Flag of Russia.svg}} Northwest Russia (1918–19)

| {{flagicon image|Flag of the Crimean Regional_Government.svg}} Crimea
(1918–19)

| {{flagdeco|Russia}} Provisional Military Dictatorship of Mughan
(1918–19)

| {{flagicon|Don Republic}} Don Republic
(1918–20)

| {{flagicon image|Flag of Kuban People's Republic.svg}} Kuban Republic
(1918–20)

| {{flagicon image|Flag of Russia.svg}} Eastern Okraina
(1920)

| {{flagdeco|Russia}} Tambov Land
(1921)

}}

----

{{ubl

| framestyle=border:none; padding:0;

|Supported by:

| {{flagicon image|Flag of Alash Autonomy.svg}} Alash-Orda
(1917–18)

| {{flagicon image|Flag of Bashkortostan (1918).svg}} Bashkurdistan
(1917–19)

|23px Mongolia
(1921)

|{{flagicon image|State flag of Persia (1907–1933).svg|23px}} Persia
(1919–20)}}

| combatant3 = {{ubl

| framestyle=border:none; padding:0;

|Separatists:

|{{flagdeco|Poland|1919}} Poland
(1918–21)

|{{flagicon image|Flag of Ukrainian People's Republic 1917.svg}} Ukraine
(1917–18; 1918–20)

|{{flagicon image|Flag of Finland (1918–1920).svg}} Finland{{efn|Also assisted Estonians, Karelians and Ingrians during Heimosodat of 1918–1922.}}
(1917–18)

|{{flagicon image|Flag of Belarus (1918, 1991–1995).svg}} Belarus
(1918–20)

|{{flagdeco|Estonia}} Estonia
(1918–20)

|{{flag|Latvia}}
(1918–20)

|{{flagicon image|Flag of Lithuania (1918–1940).svg}} Lithuania
(1918–20)}}

{{Collapsible list

| framestyle=border:none; padding:0;

| title = Also{{nobold|:}}

| {{flagicon image|Flag of Alash Autonomy.svg}} Alash-Orda
(1917–18)
{{flagicon image|White Banner of National Liberation.png}} Kyrgyz Rebel Army
(1916-1918)

| {{flagicon image|Flag of Bashkortostan (1918).svg}} Bashkurdistan
(1917–19)

| 5={{flagicon image|Flag of Ukrainian People's Republic 1917.svg}} West Ukraine
(1918–19)

| 6={{flagicon image|Flaga Litwy Środkowej.svg|23px}} Central Lithuania
(1920–22)

| 7={{flagicon image|Flag of the Moldavian Democratic Republic.svg|23px}} Moldavia
(1917–18)

| 8= Transcaucasia
(1918)

| 9={{flagicon|Democratic Republic of Georgia}} Georgia
(1918–21)

| 10={{flagicon image|Flag of the First Republic of Armenia.svg}} Armenia
(1918–20; 1921)

| 11={{flagicon image|Flag of the Turkestan (Kokand) Autonomy.svg}} Turkestan
(1917–18)

| 12={{flagicon image|Flag of the Centrocaspian Dictatorship.svg}} Centrocaspia
(1918)

| 13={{flagicon image|Flag of the Republic of Aras.svg}} Aras
(1918–19)

| 14={{flagicon image|Flag of North Caucasian Emirate.svg}} Caucasian Emirate
(1919–20)

| 15={{flagicon image|Flag of Azerbaijan 1918.svg}} Azerbaijan
(1918–20)

| 16={{flagicon image|Flag of the Mountain Republic.svg}} Northern Caucasus
(1917–21)

| 17={{flagicon image|Flag of Green Ukraine.svg}} Green Ukraine
(1918–22)

| 18=Buryat-Mongolia
(1917–21)

| 19={{flagicon image|flag of the German Empire.svg}} Yakutia
(1918)

| 20={{flagicon image|Confederated Republic of Altai Flag.svg}} Altai
(1917–20; 1921–22)

| 23={{flagicon image|Karelian National Flag.svg}} Karelia
(1918–20; 1920; 1920–23)

| 24={{flagicon image|Ingrian people.svg}} North Ingria
(1919–20)

| 27=23px Basmachi
(1918–22)

| 28=23px Bukhara
(1920)

| 29={{flagicon image|Flag of the Khanate of Khiva.svg}} Khiva
(1918–20)}}

----

{{Ubl

|Supported by:

|{{flagicon image|Flag of Sweden.svg}} Sweden{{efn|Finnish Civil War}}
(1918)

|{{flagicon image|Flag of Hungary (1918-1919).svg}} Hungary{{efn|Polish-Soviet War}}
(1919–20)

|{{flagicon image|Flag of Afghanistan (1919–1921).svg}} Afghanistan{{efn|Basmachi movement}}
(until 1922)

}}

| combatant1a = {{Ubl

|Anti-Bolshevik left:

| {{flagicon image|Socialist red flag.svg}} Left SRs{{Efn|Aligned with the Bolsheviks until March 1918, when they fell out over the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk. Most Left SRs opposed the Bolsheviks afterward, but a minority of Left SRs remained allied to the Bolsheviks for years after.}}
(1917–21)

| Green Army{{Efn|Aligned with the Bolsheviks until 1919; opposed after.}}
(1918–21)

| {{flagicon image|Махновское знамя.svg}} Makhnovshchina{{Efn|Aligned with the Bolsheviks until 1920; opposed after.}}
(1918–21)

| {{flagicon image|Petropavlovsk-Krondstadt flag.svg}} Kronstadt rebels
(1921)

}}

| combatant2a = {{Ubl

|Allied Powers:

| {{flagicon image|War flag of the Imperial Japanese Army (1868–1945).svg}} Japanese Empire {{Efn|Japan also stayed in North Sakhalin until 1925.}}
(1918–22)

| {{flagcountry|United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland}}
(1918–20)

| {{flag|United States|1912}}
(1918–20)

| {{flagcountry|French Third Republic}}
(1918–20)

| {{flagcountry|First Czechoslovak Republic|1918}}
(1918–20)}}

{{Collapsible list

| title = Also{{nobold|:}}

| framestyle=border:none; padding:0;

| {{flagcountry|Kingdom of Greece|state}}

| {{flagicon|Kingdom of Serbia}} Serbia
({{flagicon|Kingdom of Yugoslavia|size=15px}} after 1918)

| {{flagcountry|Kingdom of Romania}}

| {{flagcountry|Kingdom of Italy}}

| {{flagdeco|Republic of China (1912–1949)|1912}} China

| {{flag|Canada|1907}}
(1918–19)

| {{flag|Australia}}
(1918–19)

| {{flag|British Raj|name=India}}

| {{flag|Union of South Africa|name=South Africa|1912}}}}

| combatant3a = {{Ubl

|{{nowrap|Central Powers:}}

| {{nowrap|{{flagcountry|German Empire|name=Germany}}}}
(1917–18; {{flagicon|Weimar Republic|size=15px}} 1919)

| {{nowrap|{{flagcountry|Austria-Hungary}}}}
(1917–18)

| {{nowrap|{{flagcountry|Ottoman Empire}}}}
(1917–18; 1920–21)

| {{flagicon image|Flag of the Iron Division Freikorps.svg}} Freikorps
(1918–19)

}}

{{Collapsible list

| framestyle=border:none; padding:0;

| title = Also{{nobold|:}}

| {{flagicon image|Flag of Poland.svg}} Kingdom of Poland
(1917–18)

| {{flagicon image|Flag of Finland (1918–1920).svg}} Kingdom of Finland
(1918)

| {{flagicon image|Flag of Lithuania (1918–1940).svg}} Kingdom of Lithuania
(1918)

| {{flagicon image|Flag of Belarus (1918, 1991–1995).svg}} Belarus
(1918–19)

| {{flagicon image|Flag of Ukraine (1917–1921).svg}} Ukrainian State
(1918)

| {{flagicon|Democratic Republic of Georgia}} Georgia
(1918)

| {{flagicon image|Baltic German.svg}} Landeswehr
(1918–20)

| {{flagicon image|WestRussianVolunteerArmy.svg|size=23px}} Bermontians
(1918–20){{efn|Official allegiance to the Russian State
Unofficial allegiance to the German Empire}}

}}

| commander1 = {{flagdeco|Russian SFSR|1918}}{{flagicon image|Flag of the Soviet Union (1922–1923).svg}} Vladimir Lenin
{{flagdeco|Russian SFSR|1918}}{{flagicon image|Flag of the Soviet Union (1922–1923).svg}} Leon Trotsky
{{flagdeco|Russian SFSR|1918}} Yakov Sverdlov{{KIA|Spanish flu}}
{{flagdeco|Russian SFSR|1918}}{{flagicon image|Flag of the Soviet Union (1922–1923).svg}} Jukums Vācietis
{{nowrap|{{flagdeco|Russian SFSR|1918}}{{flagicon image|Flag of the Soviet Union (1922–1923).svg}} Sergey Kamenev}}
{{flagdeco|Russian SFSR|1918}}{{flagicon image|Flag of the Soviet Union (1922–1923).svg}} Nikolai Podvoisky
{{flagdeco|Russian SFSR|1918}}{{flagicon image|Flag of the Soviet Union (1922–1923).svg}} Nikolai Krylenko
{{flagdeco|Russian SFSR|1918}}{{flagicon image|Flag of the Soviet Union (1922–1923).svg}} Joseph Stalin
{{nowrap|{{flagicon image|Flag of the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic (1919–1929).svg}}{{flagicon image|Flag of the Soviet Union (1922–1923).svg}} Yukhym Medvedev}}
{{flagicon image|Flag_of_the_Byelorussian_Soviet_Socialist_Republic_(1919-1927).svg}}{{flagicon image|Flag of the Soviet Union (1922–1923).svg}} Vilhelm Knorin
{{flagicon image|Flag of Far Eastern Republic.svg}} Alexander Krasnoshchyokov

| commander2 = {{nowrap|{{flagicon image|Flag of Russia.svg}} Alexander Kerensky{{Surrendered}}}}
{{nowrap|{{flagicon image|Flag of Russia.svg}} Alexander Kolchak{{Executed}}}}
{{flagicon image|Flag of Russia.svg}} Lavr Kornilov{{KIA}}
{{flagicon image|Flag of Russia.svg}} Anton Denikin
{{flagicon image|Flag of Russia.svg}} Pyotr Wrangel
{{flagicon image|Flag of Russia.svg}} Nikolai Yudenich
{{flagicon image|Flag of Russia.svg}} Grigory Semyonov
{{flagicon image|Flag of Russia.svg}} Yevgeny Miller
{{flagicon image|Flag of Russia.svg}} Mikhail Diterikhs
{{flagicon image|Flag of Russia.svg}}{{flagicon|Don Republic}} Pyotr Krasnov
{{flagicon image|Flag of Russia.svg}}12px Roman von Ungern-Sternberg{{Executed}}

| commander3 = {{nowrap|{{flagicon|Poland|1919}} Józef Piłsudski}}
{{flagicon image|Flag of Ukrainian People's Republic 1917.svg}} Symon Petliura
{{nowrap|{{flagicon image|Flag of Finland (1918–1920).svg}} C.G.E. Mannerheim}}
{{nowrap|{{flagicon|Belarusian Democratic Republic}} S. Bułak-Bałachowicz}}
{{flagdeco|Estonia}} Konstantin Päts
{{flagdeco|Latvia}} Jānis Čakste
{{nowrap|{{flagicon image|Flag of Lithuania (1918–1940).svg}} Antanas Smetona}}
{{flagicon image|Flag of the Moldavian Democratic Republic.svg|23px}} Ion Inculeț
{{flagicon|Democratic Republic of Georgia}} Noe Zhordania
{{flagicon image|Flag of the First Republic of Armenia.svg}} A. Khatisian
{{flagicon image|Flag of Azerbaijan 1918.svg}} Nasib Yusifbeyli{{KIA}}
23px Enver Pasha{{KIA}}

| commander1a = {{flagicon image|Socialist red flag.svg}} Vladimir Volsky
{{flagicon image|Socialist red flag.svg}} Maria Spiridonova
{{flagicon image|Socialist red flag.svg}} Nykyfor Hryhoriv{{KIA|Killed in Action}}
{{flagicon image|Махновское знамя.svg}} Nestor Makhno
{{flagicon image|Petropavlovsk-Krondstadt flag.svg}} Stepan Petrichenko
…and others

| commander2a = {{flagicon image|War flag of the Imperial Japanese Army (1868–1945).svg}} Otani Kikuzo
{{flagdeco|United Kingdom}} Edmund Ironside
{{flagdeco|United States|1912}} William S. Graves
{{flagicon|Czechoslovakia|1918}} Radola Gajda
{{flagdeco|France|1830}} Maurice Janin
{{flagicon|Poland|1919}} Ludomir Junosza-Stępowski{{KIA}}
…and others

| commander3a = {{flagicon|German Empire}} H. von Eichhorn{{KIA}}
{{flagicon|Ottoman Empire}} Nuri Pasha
{{flagdeco|Belarus|1991|link=no}} Jan Sierada
{{flagicon image|Flag of Ukraine (1917–1921).svg}} Pavlo Skoropadskyi
{{nowrap|{{flagicon image|WestRussianVolunteerArmy.svg|size=23px}} P. Bermondt-Avalov}}
…and others

| strength1 = {{Ubl

|15px Red Army:
5,498,000 (peak){{sfn|Erickson|1984|p=763}}{{efn|The Red Army peaked in October 1920 with 5,498,000: 2,587,000 in reserves, 391,000 in labor armies, 159,000 on the front and 1,780,000 drawing rations}}}}

----

{{Ubl

|{{flagicon image|Death to oppressors of workers.svg}} Makhnovtsi:
103,000 (peak)Belash, Victor & Belash, Aleksandr, Dorogi Nestora Makhno, p. 340

|{{flagicon image|Darker_green_and_Black_flag.svg}} Green Army:
70,000 (peak)

|{{flagicon image|Petropavlovsk-Krondstadt flag.svg}} Kronstadt Mutineers:
17,961}}

| strength2 = {{Ubl

|15px White Army:
1,023,000 (peak){{efn|683,000 active
340,000 reserve}}}}

{{Collapsible list

| bullets = no

| title = Local forces{{nobold|:}}

| 15px AFSR: 270,000 (peak)

| {{flagicon image|Flag of Siberia.svg}} Siberian Army: 60,000 (peak)

| 23px Komuch Army: 30,000 (peak)

| 15px Northwestern Army: 18,500 (peak)

| 15px Northern Army: 54,700 (peak)

| 15px Western Army: 48,000 (peak)

| 15px Orenburg Army: 25,000 (peak)

| 15px Ural Army: 17,200 (peak)}}

----

{{Ubl

|{{flagicon image|War flag of the Imperial Japanese Army (1868–1945).svg}} Japanese Army: 70,000 (peak)

|15px Czechoslovak Legion: 50,000 (peak)}}

{{Collapsible list

| framestyle=border:none; padding:0;

| title = Also{{nobold|:}}

|{{flagicon|United States|1912}} AEF, Siberia:
7,950

|{{flagicon|United Kingdom|1801}} British Army:
57,636Damien Wright, Churchill's Secret War with Lenin: British and Commonwealth Military Intervention in the Russian Civil War, 1918–20, Solihull, UK, 2017, pp. 394, 526–528, 530–535; Clifford Kinvig, Churchill's Crusade: The British Invasion of Russia 1918–1920, London 2006, {{ISBN|1-85285-477-4}}, p. 297; Timothy Winegard, The First World Oil War, University of Toronto Press (2016), p. 229

|{{flagicon|Kingdom of Romania}} Romanian Army:
50,000

|{{flagicon|France|1830}} French Army:
15,600

|{{army|Greece}}:
23,000

|{{flagicon|Canada|1868}} CSEF:
~5,000

|{{flagicon|United States|1912}} AEF, North Russia:
5,000

|{{flagicon image|Flag_of_Italy_(1860).svg}} Legione Redenta:
2,500

|15px Beiyang Army:
2,300

|{{flagicon|Kingdom of Serbia}} Serbian Army:
2,000

|{{flagicon image|Purported flag of the Royal Indian Army.svg}} British Indian Army:
950

|{{flagicon image|Flag of Australia (converted).svg}} Australian Army:
150}}

| strength3 = {{Ubl

|12px Polish Army: ~1,000,000 (peak)

|15px Ukrainian Army: 100,000 (peak)

|12px Finnish Army:
90,000 (peak)}}

{{Collapsible list

| framestyle=border:none; padding:0;

| title = Also{{nobold|:}}

|16px Belarusian Army: 11,000 (peak)

----

Supported by:

|15px Hungarian Army:
30,000 (peak)

----

|15px Latvian Army:
69,232 (peak)

|15px Estonian Army:
86,000 (peak)

|15px Lithuanian Army:
43,996 (peak)

----

|{{flagicon image|Flag of Finland (1918–1920).svg}} Finnish Volunteers:
8,000 (peak)

|{{flagicon image|Flag of Karel.svg}} Forest Guerrillas:
2,000 (peak)

----

|{{flagicon image|Flag of the Swedish Brigade (Ruotsalainen prikaati).svg}} Swedish Brigade:
1,000 (peak)}}

----

{{Ubl

|{{flagicon image|Kaiserstandarte.svg}} German Army:
~547,000 (peak)}}

{{flagicon|Ottoman Empire}} Ottoman Army:
20,000 (peak)

{{Collapsible list

| framestyle=border:none; padding:0;

| title = Also{{nobold|:}}

|{{flagicon image|Flag_of_Germany_(3-2_aspect_ratio).svg}} Saxon Volunteers:
10,000 (peak)

|{{flagicon|Ottoman Empire}} Turkish Army:
20,000 (peak)

|{{flagicon image|Flag of the Iron Division Freikorps.svg}} Iron Division:
14,000 (peak)

|{{flagicon image|Baltic German.svg}} Landeswehr:
10,500 (peak)

|{{flagicon image|WestRussianVolunteerArmy.svg}} Bermontians:
50,000 (peak)}}

| casualties1 = {{Ubl

|{{flagicon image|Red Army flag (Fictitious).svg}} ~7,000,000{{sfn|Smele|2016|p=160}}}}

  • 940,000 killed
    «Гражданская война в России» в БРЭ. Дата обращения: 14 октября 2020. Архивировано 24 марта 2021 года.
  • 60,059 missing
    {{citation needed |date=October 2020}}
  • 616,605 died of disease/wounds
    {{citation needed |date=October 2020}}
  • 3,878 died in accidents/suicides
    {{citation needed |date=October 2020}}
  • 6,800,000 wounded/frostbitten{{sfn|Krivosheev|1997|p=7-38}}

| casualties2 = {{ubl

|{{flagicon image|Flag of Russia.svg}} ~1,500,000{{sfn|Smele|2016|p=160}}}}

  • 127,000 killed
    {{citation needed |date=October 2020}}
  • 784,000 executed/dead
    {{citation needed |date=October 2020}}
  • 450,000 wounded/sick
    {{citation needed |date=October 2020}}

----

{{Ubl

|{{flagicon|Czechoslovakia|1918}} 13,000 killed

|{{flagicon image|War flag of the Imperial Japanese Army (1868–1945).svg}} 6,500 killed

|{{flagicon|United Kingdom}} 938+ killed{{cite book |last=Wright |first=Damien |title=Churchill's Secret War with Lenin: British and Commonwealth Military Intervention in the Russian Civil War, 1918–20' |publisher=Helion and Company |location=Solihull, UK |date=2017 |pages=490–492, 498–500, 504 |isbn=978-1911512103}}; {{harvnb|Kinvig|2006|pp=289, 315}}; {{cite book |first=Timothy |last=Winegard |title=The First World Oil War |publisher=University of Toronto Press |date=2016 |page=208}}

|{{flagicon|United States|1912}} 596 killed

|{{flagicon|Romania}} 350 killed

| {{flagicon|Kingdom of Greece|state}} 179 killed}}

| casualties3 = {{Ubl

|{{flagicon|Poland|1919}} ~250,000}}

  • 57,000 killed
  • 113,000 wounded
  • 50,000 POWs

{{Ubl

|{{flagicon image|Flag of Ukrainian People's Republic 1917.svg}} ~125,000}}

  • 15,000 killed

{{Ubl

|{{flagicon image|Flag of Finland (1918–1920).svg}} ~5,000}}

  • 3,500 killed
  • 1,650 executed/dead

{{Ubl

|{{flagicon image|Flag of Belarus (1918, 1991–1995).svg}} ~3,000 killed

|{{flagicon|Estonia}} 3,888 killed

|{{flagicon|Latvia}} 3,046 killed

|{{flagicon image|Flag of Lithuania (1918–1940).svg}} 1,444 killed{{sfn|Eidintas|Žalys|Senn|1999|p=30}}

|{{flagicon|Sweden}} 55 killed
{{citation needed |date=February 2024}}}}

----

{{Ubl

|{{flagicon|German Empire}} 500 killed}}

| casualties4 = 7,000,000–12,000,000 total casualties, including
civilians and non-combatants

1–2 million refugees outside Russia

}}

| style="vertical-align: top;" |

{{Infobox military conflict

| conflict = Russian Civil War

| partof = the Russian Revolution, the aftermath of World War I, and the interwar period

| image = 370px

| caption = Clockwise from top left:{{flatlist|

}}

| date = 7 November 1917{{snd}}16 June 1923{{sfn|Mawdsley|2007|pp=3, 230}}Последние бои на Дальнем Востоке. М., Центрполиграф, 2005.

| place = Former Russian Empire

| result = Bolshevik victory{{cite web |title=Russian Civil War {{!}} Casualties, Causes, Combatants, & Outcome {{!}} Britannica |url=https://www.britannica.com/event/Russian-Civil-War |website=www.britannica.com |language=en |date=10 May 2024}}{{cite book |last1=Murphy |first1=Brian |title=Rostov in the Russian Civil War, 1917-1920: The Key to Victory |date=2 August 2004 |publisher=Routledge |isbn=978-1-134-27129-0 |url=https://books.google.ch/books?id=CMp-AgAAQBAJ&pg=PA2 |language=en}}{{cite book |last1=Bullock |first1=David |title=The Russian Civil War 1918–22 |date=6 June 2014 |publisher=Bloomsbury Publishing |isbn=978-1-4728-1032-8 |url=https://books.google.ch/books?id=I52HCwAAQBAJ&pg=PA1882&lpg=PA1882 |language=en}}

| combatant1 = {{flag|USSR|1922}}

  • {{flag|RSFSR|1918}}
  • {{flag|BSSR|1919}}
  • {{flag|UkSSR|1919}}
  • {{flagicon|Transcaucasian Socialist Federative Soviet Republic|1922}} TSFSR


{{flagicon image|Red flag.svg}} Regional socialist forces

| combatant2 = {{flagicon|Russia|1896}} White movement

| combatant3 = Separatists:{{ubli|

| {{flagdeco|Poland|1919}} Poland

| {{flagicon image|Flag of Finland (1918–1920).svg}} Finland

| {{flagicon image|Flag of Ukrainian People's Republic 1917.svg}} Ukraine

| {{flagicon image|Flag of Belarus (1918, 1991–1995).svg}} Belarus

| {{flagdeco|Estonia}} Estonia

| {{flag|Latvia}}

| {{flagicon image|Flag of Lithuania (1918–1940).svg}} Lithuania

| {{flagicon|Georgia|1918}} Georgia

| {{flagicon|Armenia|1918}} Armenia

| {{flagicon|Azerbaijan|1918}} Azerbaijan

| {{Flagicon image|Flag of the Mountain Republic.svg |size=23px}} Northern Caucasus

}}

| combatant1a = Anti-Bolshevik left:{{ubli

| {{flagicon image|Red flag.svg}} Left SRs

| Green Army

| {{nwr|{{flagicon image|Махновское знамя.svg}} Makhnovshchina}}

}}

| combatant2a = Allied intervention:{{ubli

| {{flag|Empire of Japan|name=Japan}}

| {{flagcountry|United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland}}

| {{flag|United States|1912}}

| {{flagcountry|French Third Republic}}

| {{nwr|{{flagcountry|First Czechoslovak Republic|1918}}}}

}}

| combatant3a = Central Powers:{{ubli

| {{flagcountry|German Empire|name=Germany}}

| {{flagcountry|Austria-Hungary}}

| {{flagcountry|Ottoman Empire}}

| {{flagicon image|Flag of the Iron Division Freikorps.svg}} Freikorps

}}

| commander1 = {{ubli

| {{flagdeco|Russian SFSR|1918}} Vladimir Lenin

| {{flagdeco|Russian SFSR|1918}} Leon Trotsky

| {{flagdeco|Russian SFSR|1918}} Yakov Sverdlov{{Natural Causes}}

| {{flagdeco|Russian SFSR|1918}} Jukums Vācietis

| {{flagdeco|Russian SFSR|1918}} Sergey Kamenev

| {{flagdeco|Russian SFSR|1918}} Nikolai Podvoisky

| {{flagdeco|Russian SFSR|1918}} Nikolai Krylenko

| {{flagdeco|Russian SFSR|1918}} Joseph Stalin

| {{flagicon image|Flag of the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic (1919–1929).svg}} Yukhym Medvedev

| {{flagicon image|Flag of the Byelorussian Soviet Socialist Republic (1919-1927).svg}} Vilhelm Knorin

| {{flagicon image|Flag of Far Eastern Republic.svg}} Alexander Krasnoshchyokov

}}

| commander2 = {{ubli

|{{flagicon image|Flag of Russia.svg}} Alexander Kerensky{{Surrendered}}

|{{flagicon image|Flag of Russia.svg}} Alexander Kolchak{{Executed}}

|{{flagicon image|Flag of Russia.svg}} Lavr Kornilov{{KIA}}

|{{flagicon image|Flag of Russia.svg}} Anton Denikin

|{{flagicon image|Flag of Russia.svg}} Pyotr Wrangel

|{{flagicon image|Flag of Russia.svg}} Nikolai Yudenich

|{{flagicon image|Flag of Russia.svg}} Grigory Semyonov

|{{flagicon image|Flag of Russia.svg}} Yevgeny Miller

|{{flagicon image|Flag of Russia.svg}} Mikhail Diterikhs

|{{flagicon image|Flag of Russia.svg}} Pyotr Krasnov

|{{flagicon image|Flag of Russia.svg}} Roman von Ungern-Sternberg{{Executed}}

}}

| commander3 = {{ubli

| {{flagicon|Poland|1919}} Józef Piłsudski

| {{flagicon image|Flag of Ukrainian People's Republic 1917.svg}} Symon Petliura

| {{flagicon image|Flag of Finland (1918–1920).svg}} C.G.E. Mannerheim

| {{flagicon|Belarusian Democratic Republic}} S. Bułak-Bałachowicz

| {{flagdeco|Estonia}} Konstantin Päts

| {{flagdeco|Latvia}} Jānis Čakste

| {{flagicon image|Flag of Lithuania (1918–1940).svg}} Antanas Smetona

| {{flagicon image|Flag of the Moldavian Democratic Republic.svg|23px}} Ion Inculeț

| {{flagicon|Democratic Republic of Georgia}} Noe Zhordania

| {{flagicon image|Flag of the First Republic of Armenia.svg}} A. Khatisian

| {{flagicon image|Flag of Azerbaijan 1918.svg}} Nasib Yusifbeyli{{KIA}}

| 23px Enver Pasha{{KIA}}

}}

| commander1a = {{ubli

| {{flagicon image|Red flag.svg}} Vladimir Volsky

| {{flagicon image|Red flag.svg}} Maria Spiridonova

| {{flagicon image|Red flag.svg}} Nykyfor Hryhoriv{{KIA|Killed in Action}}

| {{flagicon image|Махновское знамя.svg}} Nestor Makhno

| {{flagicon image|Petropavlovsk-Krondstadt flag.svg}} Stepan Petrichenko

}}

| commander2a = {{ubli

| {{flagicon image|War flag of the Imperial Japanese Army (1868–1945).svg}} Otani Kikuzo

| {{flagdeco|United Kingdom}} Edmund Ironside

| {{flagdeco|United States|1912}} William S. Graves

| {{flagicon|Czechoslovakia|1918}} Radola Gajda

| {{flagdeco|France|1830}} Maurice Janin

}}

| commander3a = {{ubl

| {{flagicon|German Empire}} H. von Eichhorn{{KIA}}

| {{flagicon|Ottoman Empire}} Nuri Pasha

| {{flagdeco|Belarus|1991|link=no}} Jan Sierada

| {{flagicon image|Flag of Ukraine (1917–1921).svg}} Pavlo Skoropadskyi

| {{flagicon image|WestRussianVolunteerArmy.svg|size=23px}} P. Bermondt-Avalov

}}

| strength1 = {{blist

| 15px Red Army: {{nwr|5,498,000 (peak){{sfn|Erickson|1984|p=763}}}}

| {{flagicon image|Death to oppressors of workers.svg}} Makhnovtsi: 103,000 (peak)Belash, Victor & Belash, Aleksandr, Dorogi Nestora Makhno, p. 340

| Green Army: {{nwr|70,000}}

| {{flagicon image|Petropavlovsk-Krondstadt flag.svg}} Kronstadt mutineers: 17,961

}}

| strength2 = {{ubli

| 15px White Army: {{nwr|1,023,000 (peak)}}

| {{flagicon image|War flag of the Imperial Japanese Army (1868–1945).svg}} Japanese Army: 70,000 (peak)

|15px Czechoslovak Legion: {{nwr|50,000 (peak)}}

| {{flagicon|United States|1912}} AEF, Siberia: 7,950

| {{flagicon|United Kingdom|1801}} British Army: 57,636Damien Wright, Churchill's Secret War with Lenin: British and Commonwealth Military Intervention in the Russian Civil War, 1918–20, Solihull, UK, 2017, pp. 394, 526–528, 530–535; Clifford Kinvig, Churchill's Crusade: The British Invasion of Russia 1918–1920, London 2006, {{ISBN|1-85285-477-4}}, p. 297; Timothy Winegard, The First World Oil War, University of Toronto Press (2016), p. 229

| {{flagicon|Kingdom of Romania}} Romanian Army: 50,000

}}

| strength3 = {{ubli

| 12px Polish Army: {{nwr|1,000,000 (peak)}}

| 15px Ukrainian Army: 100,000 (peak)

| 12px Finnish Army: 90,000 (peak)

| {{flagicon image|Kaiserstandarte.svg}} German Army: 547,000 (peak)

| {{flagicon|Ottoman Empire}} Ottoman Army: 20,000 (peak)

}}

| casualties1 = {{flagicon image|Red Army flag (Fictitious).svg}} 1,500,000{{sfn|Smele|2016|p=160}}

| casualties2 = {{ubli

| {{flagicon image|Flag of Russia.svg}} 1,500,000{{sfn|Smele|2016|p=160}}

| {{flagicon|Czechoslovakia|1918}} 13,000 killed

| {{flagicon image|War flag of the Imperial Japanese Army (1868–1945).svg}} 6,500 killed

| {{flagicon|United Kingdom}} 938 killed{{Cite book |last=Wright |first=Damien |title=Churchill's Secret War with Lenin: British and Commonwealth Military Intervention in the Russian Civil War, 1918–20' |publisher=Helion |location=Solihull, UK |date=2017 |pages=490–492, 498–500, 504 |isbn=978-1-911-51210-3}}; {{harvnb|Kinvig|2006|pp=289, 315}}; {{cite book |first=Timothy |last=Winegard |title=The First World Oil War |publisher=University of Toronto Press |year=2016 |page=208}}

| {{flagicon|United States|1912}} 596 killed

| {{flagicon|Romania}} 350 killed

| {{flagicon|Kingdom of Greece|state}} 179 killed

}}

| casualties3 = {{ubli

| {{flagicon|Poland|1919}} 250,000

| {{flagicon image|Flag of Ukrainian People's Republic 1917.svg}} 125,000

| {{flagicon image|Flag of Finland (1918–1920).svg}} 5,000

| {{flagicon image|Flag of Belarus (1918, 1991–1995).svg}} 3,000 killed

| {{flagicon|Estonia}} 3,888 killed

| {{flagicon|Latvia}} 3,046 killed

| {{flagicon image|Flag of Lithuania (1918–1940).svg}} 1,444 killed{{sfn|Eidintas|Žalys|Senn|1999|p=30}}

| {{flagicon|German Empire}} 500 killed

}}

| casualties4 = {{ubl|7,000,000–12,000,000 total casualties|1–2 million refugees outside Russia}}

}}

{{talk-reflist}}

== Responses ==

  • I don't care. My only interest is in getting a decision made, so the edit warring will stop. I will notify Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history in the hope that someone there will have good advice. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:01, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
  • :I have nothing that needs to be added to this RfC other than an apology for my edit warring, which was unnecessary and disruptive. I also concur with other editors below in that World War II is an example worth emulating here. Remsense诉 10:44, 23 May 2024 (UTC)
  • Both infoboxes (but especially the second one) make it appear like Kerensky was somehow associated with the White Movement, which was not the case. While he did participate in the Kerensky–Krasnov uprising against the Bolsheviks, this was before the White Movement, which Kerensky never supported. Chaotıċ Enby (talk · contribs) 00:26, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
  • Massive version A takes up [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Russian_Civil_War&oldid=1224908241 over half the content width], whereas Massive version B takes up [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Russian_Civil_War&oldid=1224908352 over a third]. Both spill two subsections into the body. There should be a very strong content reason for A to be picked over B, given how much space it takes away from the text. CMD (talk) 01:56, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
  • Infoboxes are supposed to help readers, and not overwhelm or confuse them. If it has to be one of these, it needs to be B. Ideally even that would be slimmed down, especially when it comes to the leaders. Please remember that minor details can and should be left to the article prose. I'm going to ping {{u|Nick-D}} to see if they'd like to comment, as they have a bunch of experience dealing with the World War II infobox. (Note that I don't have the expertise to be able to comment on the factualness here.) Ed [talk] [OMT] 02:17, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
  • {{sbb}} {{tq|Infoboxes are supposed to help readers, and not overwhelm or confuse them. If it has to be one of these, it needs to be B. Ideally even that would be slimmed down, especially when it comes to the leaders. … minor details can and should be left to the article prose}}. I can't add anything useful to ed17's comment both infoboxes are massively bloated to the point of overwhelming the article. The Russian civil war is a massive topic, but the infobox needn't be!Pincrete (talk) 04:55, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
  • :What information is excessive, in your opinion?--Oloddin (talk) 05:57, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
  • ::I was thinking of suggesting Commanders and leaders only mentioned once or twice, as this would indicate a low level of relevance. However, it turns out that some of them are not mentioned at all. Not even all the Belligerents are in the article! CMD (talk) 07:56, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
  • :::A lot of the information in infoboxes could be put in the article. For example, we could have a sortable table listing all the belligerents with their names and dates, or even a proper timeline. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:56, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
  • ::::Sure it could, anything could, endless possibility. Nonetheless, here we are after 23 years, suggesting the weight is not very strong. CMD (talk) 01:16, 23 May 2024 (UTC)
  • Thanks for the ping. I agree that infoboxes should be simple, as their goal is to present readers with a very simple summary of the conflict. Both the options above look too complex to me, even allowing for the complexity of this war. For instance, I'd suggest omitting the names of the foreign intervention force commanders given the size of these forces and their impact was generally pretty modest when compared to the size of the various Russian forces. Including force strengths in the infobox adds quite a lot of complexity for little gain, and I'd be surprised if there aren't actually a range of figures for this. The solution used in the World War II article infobox has been to keep it very simple, but include links to the articles that cover the underlying complexity (E.g. links to what made up the Allied and Axis alliances, etc). Nick-D (talk) 10:10, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
  • Comment: World War II's infobox is a fraction of the size of these. Sammy D III (talk) 13:47, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
  • :The WW2 infobox is missing the participants and when they joined or switched sides during the war, hardly a model to follow. A table of participants with dates is in my opinion the single most useful thing that a war article infobox can provide, alliances in protracted wars do require a handy guide. At least we still have one in version A here. VampaVampa (talk) 03:29, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
  • ::That infobox was deliberated over more than most GAs, every choice you've noted was at least chosen for a specific reason. I think some elements are worth adapting. Remsense诉 03:35, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
  • :::OK, I grant the WW2 infobox is actually quite well-organised, because they depend on well-structured Allies and Axis articles with additional chronological tables. Seeing the number of lesser participants in WW2 makes it clear that there had been no other option.
  • :::That said, would you suggest a similar solution here, separate articles on the two blocs of combatants (the revolutionary and counter-revolutionary sides)? By contrast, War in Afghanistan (2001–2021) is organised the old way - it does include collapsible sections, so accessibility is an issue, but then one could simply get rid of the collapsibles. VampaVampa (talk) 04:24, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
  • ::::I'm not sure I would adopt that particular approach, but I don't find myself rejecting it out of hand. Especially given that all three "sides" take the form of evolving institutions over the course of the conflict in subtle ways, we can't hope to fully describe that and maybe an extremely abbreviated description would serve readers best. Remsense诉 07:28, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
  • :::::If we did, i think my first draft would be:
  • :::::# Bolsheviks{{snd}}I'm leaning towards excluding a mention of Krondstadt etc. here. Left opposition to the Bolsheviks was fuelled by war communism, but it wasn't as if they were a different faction in the war or were leading the war effort. I have less idea of how to properly treat Makhnovshchina et al.
  • :::::#{{nbsp}}
  • :::::#*Russian Republic
  • :::::#*White movement
  • :::::#*Allied support
  • :::::#{{nbsp}}
  • :::::#*Nationalists
  • :::::#*Central Powers support
  • :::::It's so hard, because there's no honest idea that there were only three sides. Like, uh, Piłsudski and Smetona were not allies, so their categorization is more for their shared background and relationship to the Bolsheviks than their association with one another. I dunno if that's good to do. Remsense诉 07:56, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
  • I am not really a fan of either but I would say that B is an improvement over A. As already mentioned, A is far too complicated to be useful and the infobox does not serve its purpose here. Mellk (talk) 13:55, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
  • {{sbb}} B. I agree that A is far too cluttered to be useful. Ifly6 (talk) 17:05, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
  • B is better, there is too much detail in A. Even B can be trimmed further, for example by reducing the number of commanders mentioned in the infobox. Alaexis¿question? 10:40, 23 May 2024 (UTC)
  • Both are overly bloated. B as the smaller one is "less bad", and would be better basis for further cutting and improvements. Commanders list is an obvious place for reductions, reducing Bolshevik and White leaders to 4-6 names should be trivial, pro-independence forces may require some discussion about where to draw the line, and the rest could be probably removed wholesale. I would also completely remove strength figures. Considering how those fluctuated throughout the war as some armies literally got built up from scratch, they offer little value, and in fact can be misleading. Neither World War infobox includes those.--Staberinde (talk) 14:01, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
  • B mainly reduces the belligerents and commanders sections. If the intention is to prevent edit warring, criteria for including and excluding information should be established first. Senorangel (talk) 01:53, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
  • :That would be WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE. Remsense诉 08:48, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
  • B. Both infoboxes are bloated, but B is less bloated. Hogo-2020 (talk) 08:41, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
  • I think that we should go with A, or there should be some compromise where we lose the dates for the independence movements, or leave out some of them altogether. WIKIPEDA (yes i meant to misspell it) (talk) 09:48, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
  • WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE directly addresses this kind of bloat, including: "The less information it contains, the more effectively it serves that purpose, allowing readers to identify key facts at a glance". Anyone posting might want to hit that link first. Neither of these come close to MOS. Both WW I and WW II have been mentioned as examples here. Sammy D III (talk) 20:47, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
  • This is an unusual situation. My suggestion would be to use 2 different infoboxes. The first version must be very short, even shorter than B, and it should be used as main infobox on other pages. Second version could include all details, maybe even more than A, but it should be just linked (essentailly as a supplementary table or a list page) to the main infobox. My very best wishes (talk) 21:58, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
  • :What information should the later infobox contain? Are we sure that it can't just be omitted from an infobox entirely if this is being considered? Remsense诉 23:13, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
  • ::It wouldn't have to be in an infobox per se, but the content could be kept in a different form. Splitting it up into multiple lists/boxes/tables, scattered throughout the article, could be appropriate. For example, the details about the casualties could be moved to Russian Civil War#Casualties (e.g., as a data table there), and that section of the infobox could be substantially shortened. The "Commanders and leaders" section could be split to a new article, and replaced by a link to that. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:24, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
  • A with more collapsible sections - the length ratio of the larger infobox to the smaller one is roughly 6:5, that's not a great saving by any standard. An infobox bringing together all the key parameters for a lengthy and likely-to-be-expanded article is like a key to a map, it serves as an orientation guide and makes navigation easier. Reduced to bare bones and mentions for the sake of mentioning it loses much of its value. The most useful information that was dropped in the shortened version is the dates of participation of various sides in the war. If reductions need to be made, then I would advise collapsing or dropping commanders other than the top political leaders and key field commanders (who led the most substantial forces into action) on each side. The supporting sides ("Supported by") could also be collapsed. And if you are going to abridge the casualties section, then do not total killed, wounded and POWs for the Whites and for the Polish, Ukrainian and Finnish armies - this has to be kept comparable with the rest of the table (killed/died only). VampaVampa (talk) 03:23, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
  • :This is a non-starter per WP:NOHIDE. It would help to present ideas in terms of how they fit into our Manual of Style and content guidelines.Remsense诉 04:08, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
  • ::Fair, I was led into this by the older version A. I did not foresee such a radical phasing out of features but things can happen fast.
  • ::Regardless of that, I uphold my comment on including dates of participation for short-lived actors in a 6-year conflict, and on the need to be consistent with casualty figures. VampaVampa (talk) 03:57, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
  • I would like to have seen a choice between B and a not bloated version, but as A is even worse I support B out of the two. Infoboxes are meant to give a quick summary of the subject that can be easily and quickly understiod. Excessive detail goes against this purpose. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 10:33, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
  • :To be clear as its author, B was just a start calibrated so that no one would probably get mad at me—so much for that—and I do not support it in its current state in concordance with everyone else. Would it be reasonable to start winding this down, as it seems the consensus is that the site guidelines command us to begin by stripping B down further? Remsense诉 14:10, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
  • ::It's been open for about three weeks, and comments died down more than a week ago. I'll WP:RFCEND this and ask someone at Wikipedia:Closure requests to produce a summary. I think it's obvious to everyone who participated in the discussion that the longer version has been rejected, and that many editors would prefer something even shorter than the shorter version. I wouldn't normally ask for a formal closing summary in such a lopsided discussion; however, since this has been a source of edit warring recently, I think it would be best to do this in the most formal way. That sometimes helps people accept that their "side" does not have consensus. WhatamIdoing (talk) 14:19, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

{{archive bottom}}

Casualties and losses in the infobox

the sources don't contain the numbers given in the infobox

for example, the line "Krivosheev estimate: 7,731,568 casualties" cites page 54, but the page, nor any other page in the book, does not have this number, and page 54 describes the far-eastern army

same with "Smele estimate": page 160, which is cited in the article, in fact describes jewish pogroms in ukraine and doesnt have this number — Preceding unsigned comment added by 185.186.235.99 (talk) 09:29, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

removal

@Remsense what do you mean by "things that were removed on purpose"? i changed the number of deaths to the one stated in the source, replaced "social-democratic" with "centrist" and provided sources for that, added that it turned into a full-scale war in 1918 and provided sources for that as well Opostylov (talk) 11:33, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

:Got diffs mixed up, my apologies. Remsense ‥ 论 11:40, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

Problems with the front page

The front page of this article mentions 1919 White Army offensives without mentioning any of the gains made by any of them in that sentence, only brining them up when it talks about the Red Army counteroffensives reversing these gains.

I also have problems with the sentence "By 1919, the White armies were in retreat and by the start of 1920 were defeated on all three fronts." Not only was there still sporadic resistance by the White forces until 1923, but it took a while into 1919 for the White Army to actually be in retreat (and they were still able to launch offensives during that time).

Lastly, I feel like the last paragraph should go earlier in the article since the Great Siberian Ice March occurred after many of the events listed in the previous paragraphs (particularly the success of the separatist movements). LordOfWalruses (talk) 19:47, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

:The lead is a summary of the article body. If readers would like details, they should read the actual article. With that in mind, do you feel the lead does a poor job at balancing its summary of the material in the article body? Remsense ‥ 论 19:50, 20 January 2025 (UTC)