Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 May 26#Category:Italian social commentators

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: keep. Now has 8 articles. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkltalk 12:07, 18 June 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting {{lc|City Park (Budapest)}}

:Nominator's rationale: WP:SMALLCAT. –Aidan721 (talk) 23:41, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

• Delete per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 02:37, 27 May 2023 (UTC)
• Comment City Park (Budapest) lists a couple of sights/buildings located within the park that could be added. Kaffet i halsen (talk) 10:55, 31 May 2023 (UTC)
• Keep I have populated the category accordingly. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 13:22, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: merge to :Category:Communities in Dubai. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 00:55, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:Dubai Neighborhoods to :Category:Communities in Dubai

:Nominator's rationale: all articles in the "neighborhoods" category refer to communities. 1857a (talk) 23:02, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

• Merge per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 02:42, 27 May 2023 (UTC)
• Merge per nom. JML1148 (talk | contribs) 07:38, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: merge to :Category:Consciousness. Some users argued for keeping a separate category for research on consciousness, but {{user|Carchasm}} believes that a new name will be required. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 12:36, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:Consciousness studies to :Category:Consciousness

:Nominator's rationale: Duplicate category, both of these should logically include exactly the same pages - car chasm (talk) 21:07, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

• Not necessarily. For example, Association for the Scientific Study of Consciousness clearly belongs in a "studies" subcat. Though I am not sure if there is enough content for the subcat. Marcocapelle (talk) 02:55, 27 May 2023 (UTC)
• :I'm skeptical that there's enough content. That organization looks fine but given the names associated with Society for Consciousness Studies i now think the specific term "consciousness studies" also might have a bit of WP:FRINGE associations as well. Deepak Chopra, the integral theorists, etc. probably don't belong in a category with David Chalmers. - car chasm (talk) 16:13, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

::*See my note below pertinent to the above reply. Randy Kryn (talk) 03:34, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

• Merge for Now Consciousness studies is a redirect that points to Consciousness, and not to a specific section even. Maybe there is a defining distinction here, but it needs to be grounded in a well sourced main article to prevent this from being WP:SUBJECTIVECAT. - RevelationDirect (talk) 03:24, 28 May 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose merge, the nominator has removed long-term entrants of the consciousness categories and is instigating an ongoing edit war over entrants. Because of this and an ongoing discussion at the fringe Wikiproject I don't trust them to make a merge without deleting much of the information. Randy Kryn (talk) 03:33, 29 May 2023 (UTC)
• :Category merges are automated. - car chasm (talk) 05:51, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

::*Didn't know that (I keep far away from bots and tools, being Amish /s). I still oppose per the fact that some of the categories related to consciousness are being currently depleted of entrants. Randy Kryn (talk) 15:16, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

• Agree with Merge If the main articles are merged, makes sense for the categories should be merged. jps (talk) 07:41, 29 May 2023 (UTC)
• I am counting about 7 articles similar to Association for the Scientific Study of Consciousness that could stay in this category, so the category as such might be kept. All the rest should be moved to the parent category. {{ping|Carchasm|Randy Kryn|RevelationDirect|ජපස}} do you recognize or agree with this count? Marcocapelle (talk) 09:04, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

:: My 1st choice would still be a merge but a partial merge would still be an improvement over the status quo. If there is not a consensus for a merge, this would be my 2nd choice. - RevelationDirect (talk) 14:09, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

:::Same. I think a merge is preferable, but a (manual) merge of all but the organization or academic journal pages up to :Category:Consciousness would still be better than not doing that. I think we'd want to rename the category if that were the consensus though, so we don't end up with more pages that belong in the parent category in the future. - car chasm (talk) 18:33, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: rename to :Category:Non-binary video game characters. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 00:59, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Genderless or non-binary video game characters}}

:Nominator's rationale: The idea a character lacks a gender is not defining of the character. Beyond that, there is no character in the category who is provably non-binary, so it consists of original research. All we know is that their gender is not told to the player. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 20:35, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose (edit: I now favour Rename to :Category:Non-binary video game characters, see below) Gender is generally a defining characteristic, ergo characters of canonically unspecified, ambiguous, or non-binary gender have a WP:DEFINING gender. A character like Lavos doesn't seem to fit here unless there's a WP:RS that can be added to the article so support the claim that Lavos doesn't have a gender, but Nights_(character) does have such a sourced claim, so that page does fit. And it seems like plenty of the pages in :Category:Fictional non-binary people are video game characters with similarly supported sourced claims, such as Toad (Nintendo), so this one should be a subcategory of that. - car chasm (talk) 21:39, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

:::Agreed. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 22:46, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose (edit: I now favour Rename to :Category:Non-binary video game characters, see below) per siblings :Category:Male characters in video games, :Category:Female characters in video games, and :Category:Video game characters of selectable gender. Non-binary gender is a group of gender identities, and if a gender is so irrelevant as to be selectable, then surely lacking a gender is also defining enough. If "provability" plays a role, then prove to me what is "male" about the robot character 343 Guilty Spark apart from the pronouns he/him/his and the WP:UNSOURCED claim "Gender: Male". You either nominate them all or none of them. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 20:58, 26 May 2023 (UTC)
• :First of all, I am not supporting the existence of gendered categories, in fact I nominated them for deletion as well, but community consensus at CfD was that they should be kept and are defining. It was not my call. However, there are not enough provably non-binary characters to fill a category such as this, and simply having an unknown gender is not the same thing. Characters of indeterminate gender do not fall under the umbrella.
• :P.S. 343 Guilty Spark, at least, used to be [https://www.halopedia.org/Chakas a male human] before being turned into an AI. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 21:34, 26 May 2023 (UTC)
• ::{{xt|community consensus at CfD was that they should be kept and are defining}} Well then, what are you nominating this one for? Seems like you're unwilling to accept a previous consensus reached.
• ::{{!xt|not enough provably non-binary characters to fill a category such as this}} 4 items does not make a WP:SMALLCAT.
• ::{{!xt|unknown gender / indeterminate gender}} that's different. Genderless = no gender. Non-binary = a gender other than "male" or "female". These are known/determined characteristics.
• ::{{!xt|halopedia.org}} WP:USERGENERATED.
• ::{{!xt|used to be}} that's not the question. The question is what gender the robot 343 Guilty Spark is. You haven't "proven" anything. You can't even make the very first item in :Category:Male characters in video games comply to the criteria in your own rationale. This nomination is going nowhere, sorry. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 22:37, 26 May 2023 (UTC)
• :::PS: If 343 Guilty Spark "used to be" male, but no longer, maybe they actually belong in this category. {{wink}} Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 22:49, 26 May 2023 (UTC)
• ::::Oppose deletion per other arguments, Support recategorizing 343 Guilty Spark per Nederlandse Leeuw. - Cukie Gherkin (talk) 02:25, 27 May 2023 (UTC)
• Rename to :Category:Non-binary video game characters, considering that genderless/agender is just a specific form of non-binary gender. And purge articles with characters with unknown gender per WP:OCMISC. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:42, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

: P.S. The article 343 Guilty Spark, says "he was originally created from the mind of a human being". This has nothing to do with gender. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:51, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

::Rename to :Category:Non-binary video game characters per Marcocapelle. This is better than a simple Keep. Nom also suggested the very same catname at Category talk:Genderless or non-binary video game characters#About the category's title. I think nom and you have a point that "unknown gender / indeterminate gender / unspecified gender" may be WP:NONDEFINING, so such items should not be put into this category per WP:OCMISC. (Maybe 343 Guilty Spark is an example of that, or simply an item to which "gender" doesn't apply because it's a robot?). I think The Master (Fallout) is an example of ambiguous gender (mentioned by car chasm): {{tq|The Fallout development team created the character concept as a synthesis of a man, a woman, and a computer terminal mutated together.}} This is not unknown/indeterminate/unspecified, because information about the subject's gender is provided. This readily falls within the spectrum of non-binary gender. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 09:17, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

:::@Carchasm @Cukie Gherkin We three agree about keeping the category, but what do you think about renaming it without the words "genderless and" in it? I think Marcocapelle has a good point, the same name was already proposed by nom Zxcvbnm, and creator Kung Fu Man seemed to be unsure about "genderless", and open to changing the name into something else. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 09:47, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

::::I think that's probably fine; I just walk a fine line on such categorization, as I feel that there is some grey area on defining non-binary. Like, is a character whose society or species does not recognize gender as a concept non-binary since it exists outside of the spectrum? This isn't me objecting, by the by, just my reasoning. - Cukie Gherkin (talk) 09:53, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

:::::Good point, I agree. The video game's world thinking about gender may be different from our real-world thinking about gender, or not have any concept of gender at all. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 15:01, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

::::::If genderless can/does fall under non-binary, perhaps :Category:Non-binary and ambiguous gender video game characters? That would cover both unstated characters like Lavos and purposefully ambiguous characters like Leo from Tekken if that ever becomes an article.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 15:55, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

::::I think that works, it matches the category tree higher up - :Category:People with non-binary gender identities has :Category:Agender people as a subcategory, and this all matches my intuition on the terms. I suspect it will also cause less confusion with characters that have no specified gender. - car chasm (talk) 16:00, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

• Observation 343 Guilty Spark was not categorised as "male" [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=343_Guilty_Spark&diff=1156923212&oldid=1147383435 until 25 May (2 days ago)] by User:Kung Fu Man, the same user who also created :Category:Genderless or non-binary video game characters that day. Creator Kung Fu Man and would-be nom Zxcvbnm briefly discussed the category at Category talk:Genderless or non-binary video game characters#About the category's title on 26 May (yesterday), and then Zxcvbnm nominated it for deletion. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 09:05, 27 May 2023 (UTC)
• Observation This is [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?search=genderless&title=Special%3ASearch&profile=advanced&fulltext=1&advancedSearch-current=%7B%22fields%22%3A%7B%22plain%22%3A%5B%22genderless%22%5D%7D%7D&ns14=1 the only category on English Wikipedia with the word "genderless" in it], so it is unusual and would need justification. Genderlessness redirects to Non-binary gender. This seems to support the Rename argument made by Marcocapelle, and earlier by nom Zxcvbnm at at the category talk page. Creator Kung Fu Man already considered on the talk page that "genderless" might not be the best description, and was open to alternatives. Seems like the solution is obvious. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 09:28, 27 May 2023 (UTC)
• Comment the alt rename would be Category:Non-binary video game characters per :Category:Video game characters by gender Kaffet i halsen (talk) 09:45, 27 May 2023 (UTC)
• :Thanks, I'll correct it. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 09:48, 27 May 2023 (UTC)
• :* I have corrected it too. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:57, 27 May 2023 (UTC)
• Rename to :Category:Non-binary video game characters. If we have male and female as defining, this one should be too. - RevelationDirect (talk) 03:30, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: merge to :Category:Passage West hurlers. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 00:59, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:Passage hurlers to :Category:Passage West hurlers

:Nominator's rationale: I think that both these categories refer to Passage West GAA. I will leave a note at WP:WikiProject Gaelic games. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 20:32, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

• Merge as duplicate. (Will reconsider if anyone comes forward to confirm a distinction.) - RevelationDirect (talk) 03:27, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: merge. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 01:00, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

: Propose mergeing:

:* :Category:Clergy from Cobh to :Category:People from Cobh and :Category:Christian clergy from County Cork

:* :Category:Scientists‎ from Cobh to :Category:People from Cobh and :Category:Scientists from County Cork

:* :Category:Soldiers from Cobh to :Category:People from Cobh and :Category:Military personnel from County Cork

:* :Category:Sportspeople from Cobh to :Category:People from Cobh and :Category:Sportspeople from County Cork

:Nominator's rationale: per WP:SMALLCAT. These malformed categories (only parent is :Category:People from Cobh) are tiny (3, 1 , 2, 4 pages respectively) and have little potential for growth, because Cobh is a small town and the parent :Category:People from Cobh has only 20 pages. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 19:43, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

• Merge per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 19:51, 26 May 2023 (UTC)
• Merge per nom - I have managed to find a few additions both to the Sportspeople and the People, but still not enough to justify a split. Crowsus (talk) 21:32, 26 May 2023 (UTC)
• Merge per nom. Oculi (talk) 13:07, 27 May 2023 (UTC)
• Update I have struck :Category:Sportspeople from Cobh. The good work by @{{u|Crowsus}} took it to ten pages, and I have added the two GAA categories. With a total of 12 pages, I think it's worth keeping.
  {{yo|Crowsus|Marcocapelle|Oculi}} is that OK with you? --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs)

:* Sure. Marcocapelle (talk) 18:10, 1 June 2023 (UTC)

:* Ditto. Oculi (talk) 18:19, 1 June 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: merge. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 01:00, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

:*Propose merging:

::* :Category:International baseball competitions hosted by Argentina to :Category:Baseball competitions in Argentina, :Category:International sports competitions hosted by Argentina and :Category:International baseball competitions in South America

::* :Category:International baseball competitions hosted by Brazil to :Category:Baseball competitions in Brazil, :Category:International sports competitions hosted by Brazil and :Category:International baseball competitions in South America

::* :Category:International baseball competitions hosted by Greece to :Category:Baseball competitions in Greece, :Category:International sports competitions hosted by Greece and :Category:International baseball competitions in Europe

::* :Category:International baseball competitions hosted by Indonesia to :Category:Baseball competitions in Indonesia, :Category:International sports competitions hosted by Indonesia and :Category:International baseball competitions in Asia

::* :Category:International baseball competitions hosted by Pakistan to :Category:Baseball competitions in Pakistan, :Category:International sports competitions hosted by Pakistan and :Category:International baseball competitions in Asia

::* :Category:International baseball competitions hosted by Peru to :Category:Baseball competitions in Peru, :Category:International sports competitions hosted by Peru and :Category:International baseball competitions in South America

::* :Category:International baseball competitions hosted by Qatar to :Category:Baseball competitions in Qatar, :Category:International sports competitions hosted by Qatar and :Category:International baseball competitions in Asia

::* :Category:International baseball competitions hosted by South Africa to :Category:Baseball competitions in South Africa, :Category:International sports competitions hosted by South Africa and :Category:International baseball competitions in Africa

::* :Category:International baseball competitions hosted by Thailand to :Category:Baseball competitions in Thailand, :Category:International sports competitions hosted by Thailand and :Category:International baseball competitions in Asia

:Nominator's rationale: merge per WP:SMALLCAT. –Aidan721 (talk) 19:25, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

• Merge per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 19:42, 26 May 2023 (UTC)
• Merge per nom. I've been thinking about if the :Category:International sports competitions part of :Category:Sports competitions is at all needed. Kaffet i halsen (talk) 19:52, 26 May 2023 (UTC)
• Merge for Now with no objection to recreation if we ever get to 5+ articles. - RevelationDirect (talk) 03:31, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: merge to :Category:Ice hockey players by club. In my opinion, the arguments based on consistency and the small size of the upper layer, to which the nominated category will be merged, outweigh any concerns about the proposed merge target. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 12:39, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:Ice hockey players by team and country to :Category:Ice hockey players by club

:Nominator's rationale: Layer that doesn't help navigation. Not present in other :Category:Sportspeople by club or team categories Kaffet i halsen (talk) 17:52, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

• Rename to :Category:Ice hockey players by country and team. Perfectly standard name (but wrong order): see eg :Category:Sportspeople by country and club or team. Oculi (talk) 18:54, 26 May 2023 (UTC)
• :I agree that team and country should be switched if kept. However :Category:Association football players by club and :Category:Basketball players by club work without the layer (:Category:Association football players by country and club) I'm trying to merge away. Kaffet i halsen (talk) 19:36, 26 May 2023 (UTC)
• ::Support per nom, works fine without this layer as evidenced by the other sports. Crowsus (talk) 19:51, 26 May 2023 (UTC)
• {{strikethrough|Rename per Oculi.}} –Aidan721 (talk) 19:09, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

:* Amend to merge per nom. Standard is for these to be upmerged. –Aidan721 (talk) 22:11, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

• Merge, the parent :Category:Ice hockey players by club only contains two subcategories, so we can do with a category layer less. If kept, rename per Oculi. Marcocapelle (talk) 19:49, 26 May 2023 (UTC)
• :Category:Ice hockey players by club should be a subcat scheme with 1 subcat for each club and is incorrectly named. Correct the naming rather than compound the error. Eg :Category:Establishments in Canada by year is correctly named. Oculi (talk) 16:43, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: merge. {{nac}} –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 12:41, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

:*Propose merging :Category:1530s in Canada to :Category:16th century in Canada and :Category:1530s in New France

::*Propose merging :Category:1530s establishments in Canada to :Category:16th-century establishments in Canada and :Category:1530s establishments in New France

:*Propose merging :Category:1608 in Canada to :Category:1600s in Canada and :Category:1608 in New France

:*Propose merging :Category:1609 in Canada to :Category:1600s in Canada and :Category:1609 in New France

:*Propose merging :Category:1610 in Canada to :Category:1610s in Canada and :Category:1610 in New France

:*Propose merging :Category:1611 in Canada to :Category:1610s in Canada and :Category:1611 in New France

:*Propose merging :Category:1612 in Canada to :Category:1610s in Canada and :Category:1612 in New France

:*Propose merging :Category:1613 in Canada to :Category:1610s in Canada and :Category:1613 in New France

:*Propose merging :Category:1614 in Canada to :Category:1610s in Canada and :Category:1614 in New France

:*Propose merging :Category:1615 in Canada to :Category:1610s in Canada and :Category:1615 in New France

:*Propose merging :Category:1616 in Canada to :Category:1610s in Canada and :Category:1616 in New France

:*Propose merging :Category:1617 in Canada to :Category:1610s in Canada and :Category:1617 in New France

:*Propose merging :Category:1618 in Canada to :Category:1610s in Canada and :Category:1618 in New France

:*Propose merging :Category:1628 in Canada to :Category:1620s in Canada and :Category:1628 in New France

:*Propose merging :Category:1629 in Canada to :Category:1620s in Canada and :Category:1629 in New France

:*Propose merging :Category:1635 in Canada to :Category:1630s in Canada and :Category:1635 in New France

:*Propose merging :Category:1638 in Canada to :Category:1630s in Canada and :Category:1638 in New France

::*Propose merging :Category:1638 establishments in Canada to :Category:1630s establishments in Canada and :Category:1638 establishments in New France

:*Propose merging :Category:1639 in Canada to :Category:1630s in Canada and :Category:1639 in New France

:*Propose merging :Category:1641 in Canada to :Category:1640s in Canada and :Category:1641 in New France

:*Propose merging :Category:1660 in Canada to :Category:1660s in Canada and :Category:1660 in New France

:*Propose merging :Category:1663 in Canada to :Category:1660s in Canada and :Category:1663 in New France

::*Propose merging :Category:1663 establishments in Canada to :Category:1660s establishments in Canada and :Category:1663 establishments in New France

:*Propose merging :Category:1666 in Canada to :Category:1660s in Canada and :Category:1666 in New France

::*Propose merging :Category:1666 establishments in Canada to :Category:1660s establishments in Canada and :Category:1666 establishments in New France

:*Propose merging :Category:1679 in Canada to :Category:1670s in Canada and :Category:1679 in New France

::*Propose merging :Category:1679 establishments in Canada to :Category:1670s establishments in Canada and :Category:1679 establishments in New France

:*Propose merging :Category:1683 in Canada to :Category:1680s in Canada and :Category:1683 in New France

::*Propose merging :Category:1683 establishments in Canada to :Category:1680s establishments in Canada and :Category:1683 establishments in New France

:*Propose merging :Category:1688 in Canada to :Category:1680s in Canada and :Category:1688 in New France

::*Propose merging :Category:1688 establishments in Canada to :Category:1680s establishments in Canada and :Category:1688 establishments in New France

:*Propose merging :Category:1690 in Canada to :Category:1690s in Canada and :Category:1690 in New France

:*Propose merging :Category:1691 in Canada to :Category:1690s in Canada and :Category:1691 in New France

:*Propose merging :Category:1701 in Canada to :Category:1700s in Canada and :Category:1701 in New France

:*Propose merging :Category:1710 in Canada to :Category:1710s in Canada and :Category:1710 in New France

:*Propose merging :Category:1711 in Canada to :Category:1710s in Canada and :Category:1711 in New France

:*Propose merging :Category:1723 in Canada to :Category:1720s in Canada and :Category:1723 in New France

:*Propose merging :Category:1732 in Canada to :Category:1730s in Canada and :Category:1732 in New France

:*Propose merging :Category:1745 in Canada to :Category:1740s in Canada and :Category:1745 in New France

::*Propose merging :Category:1745 establishments in Canada to :Category:1740s establishments in Canada and :Category:1745 establishments in New France

:*Propose merging :Category:1746 in Canada to :Category:1740s in Canada and :Category:1746 in New France

:*Propose merging :Category:1755 in Canada to :Category:1750s in Canada and :Category:1755 in New France

:*Propose merging :Category:1758 in Canada to :Category:1750s in Canada and :Category:1758 in New France

:*Propose merging :Category:1759 in Canada to :Category:1750s in Canada and :Category:1759 in New France

:*Propose merging :Category:1760 in Canada to :Category:1760s in Canada and :Category:1760 in New France

:*Propose merging :Category:1763 in Canada to :Category:1760s in Canada, :Category:1763 in New France and :Category:1763 in the British Empire

:*Propose merging :Category:1771 in Canada to :Category:1770s in Canada, :Category:1771 in North America and :Category:1771 in the British Empire

:*Propose merging :Category:1773 in Canada to :Category:1770s in Canada, :Category:1773 in North America and :Category:1773 in the British Empire

:*Propose merging :Category:1774 in Canada to :Category:1774 in the Province of Quebec (1763–1791)

:*Propose merging :Category:1775 in Canada to :Category:1775 in the Province of Quebec (1763–1791)

:*Propose merging :Category:1776 in Canada to :Category:1776 in the Province of Quebec (1763–1791)

:*Propose merging :Category:1781 in Canada to :Category:1781 in the Province of Quebec (1763–1791)

:*Propose merging :Category:1783 in Canada to :Category:1780s in Canada, :Category:1783 in North America and :Category:1783 in the British Empire

:*Propose merging :Category:1787 in Canada to :Category:1780s in Canada, :Category:1787 in North America and :Category:1787 in the British Empire

:*Propose merging :Category:1789 in Canada to :Category:1780s in Canada, :Category:1789 in North America and :Category:1789 in the British Empire

:Nominator's rationale: During this time Canada was a French and British colony/province. Not enough content per year to warrant this by year tree prior to the Upper Canada/Lower Canada split. Merge per WP:SMALLCAT. –Aidan721 (talk) 16:24, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

• Conceptually support per WP:SMALLCAT. I do not know enough about Canadian history to check whether the merge targets are correct. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:01, 26 May 2023 (UTC)
• Generally Fully Support But the 1763 one should also be merged to :Category:1763 in the British Empire and the earlier dates manually checked for any Hudson's Bay Company/Rupert's Land articles. - RevelationDirect (talk) 03:55, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

::Clicked through the links in Hudson's Bay Company#17th century and Hudson's Bay Company#18th century, and and those articles either didn't use Canadian date categories (Prince of Wales Fort) or didn't use date categories at all (Moose Factory). - RevelationDirect (talk) 04:03, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

:*I've updated 1763 to be merged to both New France and the British Empire. And I have already manually checked that none of the prior years include any Rupert's Land articles. –Aidan721 (talk) 23:56, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

::: Thank you! My iVote is updated. - RevelationDirect (talk) 11:52, 3 June 2023 (UTC)

• Comment :Category:1780 in Canada and several other years were speedy merged per C2F, as they contained only the year-by-country article. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 01:03, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 01:12, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Professional sports people}}

:* Propose deleting :Category:Professional sports people by sport‎‎

:Nominator's rationale: A big chunk of the sportspeople with articles are professional. Also this category combines sports business professionals and sportspeople on professional tours. Kaffet i halsen (talk) 16:22, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

• Delete per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:07, 26 May 2023 (UTC)
• Delete this doesn't aid navigation. - RevelationDirect (talk) 04:29, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: merge to :Category:Amputee football players. There is also consensus to upmerge :Category:Amputee football players by nationality because there is only one subcategory. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 01:14, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Amputee football people}}

:* Propose deleting :Category:Amputee football people by nationality‎

:Nominator's rationale: Unnecessary layer as the only kind of people at present is :Category:Amputee football players‎. Player category would need to be recategorised to :Category:Amputee football and Player by nationality to :Category:Amputee football by country Kaffet i halsen (talk) 16:03, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

• Partial support: at least merge :Category:Amputee football players by nationality to :Category:Amputee football players, as it contains one subcategory. Generally, upmerging people categories like :Category:Amputee football people to topic categories is not ideal, although it might be done here as well. In any case it is a matter of merging, not of deletion. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:17, 26 May 2023 (UTC)
• Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related page discussions. GiantSnowman 10:27, 27 May 2023 (UTC)
• Merge to {{cat|Category:Amputee football players}}, which should be renamed to either {{cat|Category:Amputee footballers}} or {{cat|Category:Amputee association football players}}. GiantSnowman 10:29, 27 May 2023 (UTC)
• :The name of the sport is amputee football, so "amputee association football players" would not be an appropriate title. S.A. Julio (talk) 19:33, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: merge with manual review to avoid redundant categorizations. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 01:10, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

:* Upmerge {{clc|Dutch expatriates in Malawi}} to {{cl|Dutch expatriates}} (per {{cl|Dutch people}}) and :Category:Expatriates in Malawi

:* Upmerge {{clc|Dutch expatriates in Seychelles}} to {{cl|Dutch expatriates}} (per {{cl|Dutch people}}) and :Category:Expatriates in Seychelles

:* Upmerge {{clc|East Timorese expatriates in Portugal}} to {{cl|East Timorese expatriates}} (per {{cl|East Timorese people}}) and :Category:Expatriates in Portugal

:* Upmerge {{clc|English expatriates in Barbados}} to {{cl|English expatriates}} (per {{cl|English people}}) and :Category:British expatriates in Barbados

:* Upmerge {{clc|English expatriates in the Papal States}} to {{cl|English expatriates}} (per {{cl|English people}}) and :Category:People of the Papal States

:* Upmerge {{clc|Eritrean expatriates in the Soviet Union}} to {{cl|Eritrean expatriates}} (per {{cl|Eritrean people}}) and :Category:Expatriates in the Soviet Union

:* Upmerge {{clc|Eritrean expatriates in the United Kingdom}} to {{cl|Eritrean expatriates}} (per {{cl|Eritrean people}}) and :Category:Expatriates in the United Kingdom

{{Hidden begin|title=Full list of around 195 categories |ta1=center|titlebgcolor=#FFEBCD|width=100%}}

{{:Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 May 26/Expatriates}}

{{Hidden end}}

• Rationale: recent cfds such as Emigrants from the United States (Oct 22), Emigrants from the Ottoman Empire (Oct 22), French emigrants (Apr 23), Belgian emigrants (Apr 23), Emigrants from former countries (May 23) and More emigrants (May 23) have upmerged small categories to their relevant parents (per WP:SMALLCAT). The same rationale applies to expatriates. The listed categories are all small (1 or 2 articles) with no subcategories and should be similarly upmerged.{{pb}}The full list is here. Oculi (talk) 15:31, 26 May 2023 (UTC)
• :Comment not sure how smart the bot is, but some of these will produce unhelpful results: Faroese in Spain, for example, will upmerge to two categories, Faroese expatriates and Expatriates in Spain, which already have subcategories present in the relevant article, i.e Faroese expatriate women's footballers and Expatriate women's footballers in Spain. Will there be any sort of follow up process to tidy that up? Crowsus (talk) 18:48, 26 May 2023 (UTC)
• Support per nom. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 15:39, 26 May 2023 (UTC)
• Manually merge per Crowsus. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:23, 26 May 2023 (UTC)
• Upmerge for Now with no objection to recreating any that grow to 5+ articles. (Support manual review to ensure intended outcome.) - RevelationDirect (talk) 19:42, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: merge. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkltalk 14:46, 18 June 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose merging :Category:Nilan Bisons players to :Category:Bisons Loimaa players

:Nominator's rationale: 寒吉 (talk) 12:43, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

• Merge Although the nominator failed to advance a rationale, these seem to be the same team under different names used at different times. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 01:09, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: rename to :Category:Olympic coaches for Australia , etc. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 12:43, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose renaming :Category:Australian Olympic coaches to :Category:Coaches of Olympic competitors for Australia

:* Propose renaming :Category:French Olympic coaches to :Category:Coaches of Olympic competitors for France

:* Propose renaming :Category:German Olympic coaches to :Category:Coaches of Olympic competitors for Germany

:* Propose renaming :Category:British Olympic coaches to :Category:Coaches of Olympic competitors for Great Britain

:* Propose renaming :Category:Japanese Olympic coaches to :Category:Coaches of Olympic competitors for Japan

:* Propose renaming :Category:New Zealand Olympic coaches to :Category:Coaches of Olympic competitors for New Zealand

:* Propose renaming :Category:Nigerian Olympic coaches to :Category:Coaches of Olympic competitors for Nigeria

:* Propose renaming :Category:Norwegian Olympic coaches to :Category:Coaches of Olympic competitors for Norway

:* Propose renaming :Category:American Olympic coaches to :Category:Coaches of Olympic competitors for the United States

:* Propose renaming :Category:Spanish Olympic coaches to :Category:Coaches of Olympic competitors for Spain

:* Propose renaming :Category:Paralympic coaches of Australia to :Category:Coaches of Paralympic competitors for Australia

:* Propose renaming :Category:Paralympic coaches of Canada‎ to :Category:Coaches of Paralympic competitors for Canada

:* Propose renaming :Category:Paralympic coaches of Fiji‎ to :Category:Coaches of Paralympic competitors for Fiji‎

:* Propose renaming :Category:Paralympic coaches of Spain‎ to :Category:Coaches of Paralympic competitors for Spain

:Nominator's rationale: All American coaches in the category are not American people et cetera. It is possible that Olympic coach is too broad, but that would need to take :Category:Olympic coaches and :Category:Paralympic coaches in consideration. For national team coaches, their role as national team coaches are more defining than for coaching teams of the same NOC, coaches of individual sportspeople are hard to define. Kaffet i halsen (talk) 11:24, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

• Support in principle. To me "Coaches of Olympic competitors for Fooland" is unnecessarily long. I'd prefer "Olympic coaches for Fooland". But I agree that "Fooian Olympic coaches" is misleading as it implied the nationality of the coaches whereas it's implying a representative country. –Aidan721 (talk) 13:29, 26 May 2023 (UTC)
• :No problem for me. Kaffet i halsen (talk) 19:48, 26 May 2023 (UTC)
• Support {{xt|Olympic coaches for Fooland}} per Aidan721. Perhaps even more concise would be to simply replace {{xt|Fooian}} by {{xt|Fooland}}, e.g. :Category:Germany Olympic coaches, :Category:United States Olympic coaches. But I can readily see the problem, because "New Zealand" is often used as an adjective, as in this case already, and so is "United States". So {{xt|Olympic coaches for Fooland}} is a better option. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 15:47, 26 May 2023 (UTC)
• :Support Olympic coaches for Fooland, current name structure definitely needs changed. Crowsus (talk) 19:52, 26 May 2023 (UTC)
• Alt Rename to Olympic coaches for Fooland per Aidan721. Addresses the legitimate ethnicity vs country issue in the nom but isn't so wordy. - RevelationDirect (talk) 04:35, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 01:06, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Olympic team doctors}}

:Nominator's rationale: Varying types of Olympic involvement. WP:NONDEFINING. Kaffet i halsen (talk) 11:24, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

• Delete per nom. –Aidan721 (talk) 13:30, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 01:06, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Queen of the Universe contestants}}

:Nominator's rationale: Per all the other ones, these people were already famous, so this fails WP:PERFCAT. --woodensuperman 10:51, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

• Delete per nom. –Aidan721 (talk) 13:31, 26 May 2023 (UTC)
• Delete In practice these contestants seem to have already become well known through earlier reality show performances. (If kept, rename to :Category:Queen of the Universe (TV series) contestants.) - RevelationDirect (talk) 04:33, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: merge. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 01:04, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Olympic competitors for Northern Rhodesia}}

:* Propose merging :Category:Olympic athletes for Northern Rhodesia to :Category:Olympic athletes for Zambia

:* Propose merging :Category:Olympic boxers for Northern Rhodesia to :Category:Olympic boxers for Zambia

:* Propose merging :Category:Olympic fencers for Northern Rhodesia to :Category:Olympic fencers for Zambia

:* Propose merging :Category:Olympic swimmers for Northern Rhodesia to :Category:Olympic swimmers for Zambia

:* Propose renaming :Category:Olympic wrestlers for Northern Rhodesia to :Category:Olympic wrestlers for Zambia

:Nominator's rationale: Wikipedia articles (1, 2), [https://olympics.com/en/athletes/walter-delville-babb IOC] and [https://www.olympedia.org/countries Olympedia] consider Northern Rhodesia and Zambia the same. Similar cases have one category. Kaffet i halsen (talk) 08:53, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

• Support per nom. –Aidan721 (talk) 13:34, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 01:06, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Olympic ice hockey players for North Korea}}

:Nominator's rationale: All in this category played for Korea at the 2018 Winter Olympics and all are already categorised in the :Category:North Korean ice hockey players tree and in :Category:Winter Olympics competitors for Korea. Kaffet i halsen (talk) 08:53, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

::Support, if there are future combined entries in other years and events I would suggest these be moved into a Category:Olympic ice hockey players for Korea cat, although that would be unnecessary at present. Crowsus (talk) 20:00, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 01:05, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Olympic tug of war competitors for Germany}}

:Nominator's rationale: All three competed in the 1906 Intercalated Games (not considered Olympics). (It could also be renamed :Category:Tug of war competitors at the 1906 Intercalated Games for Germany but that tree doesn't have that kind of category). Kaffet i halsen (talk) 08:53, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

• Delete per nom. All articles are already included in :Category:Tug of war competitors at the 1906 Intercalated Games. –Aidan721 (talk) 13:37, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: rename. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 12:46, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose manually merging :Category:1st-century BC rulers in Asia i.e. move :Category:1st-century BC Roman governors of Syria to :Category:1st-century BC rulers

:* Propose manually merging :Category:1st-century BC rulers in Europe i.e. move :Category:1st-century BC tribal chiefs in Europe to :Category:1st-century BC rulers

:* Propose renaming :Category:1st-century BC rulers in Africa to :Category:1st-century BC monarchs in Africa and re-parent to monarchs

:* Propose renaming :Category:2nd-century BC rulers in Africa to :Category:2nd-century BC monarchs in Africa and re-parent to monarchs

:* Propose renaming :Category:2nd-century BC rulers in Asia to :Category:2nd-century BC monarchs in Asia and re-parent to monarchs

:* Propose renaming :Category:2nd-century BC rulers in Europe to :Category:2nd-century BC monarchs in Europe and re-parent to monarchs

:* Propose renaming :Category:3rd-century BC rulers in Africa to :Category:3rd-century BC monarchs in Africa and re-parent to monarchs

:* Propose renaming :Category:3rd-century BC rulers in Asia to :Category:3rd-century BC monarchs in Asia and re-parent to monarchs

:* Propose renaming :Category:3rd-century BC rulers in Europe to :Category:3rd-century BC monarchs in Europe and re-parent to monarchs

:* Propose renaming :Category:4th-century BC rulers in Asia to :Category:4th-century BC monarchs in Asia and re-parent to monarchs

:* Propose renaming :Category:5th-century BC rulers in Asia to :Category:5th-century BC monarchs in Asia and re-parent to monarchs

:* Propose renaming :Category:6th-century BC rulers in Asia to :Category:6th-century BC monarchs in Asia and re-parent to monarchs

:* Propose renaming :Category:7th-century BC rulers in Asia to :Category:7th-century BC monarchs in Asia and re-parent to monarchs

:Nominator's rationale: manually merge/rename/re-parent, for the first two: redundant category layer with only two subcategories each for Europe and Asia. For the others: rename per actual content, all articles are about monarchs. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:53, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

• Support per nom. Thanks for sorting this out. This will be another important step in the right direction of making these trees more specific and defining. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 20:14, 26 May 2023 (UTC)
• Support The parent categories should match the child categories to aid navigation. - RevelationDirect (talk) 04:38, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

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:The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 12:49, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting :Category:1st-century Babylonian kings

:* Propose deleting :Category:1st-century BC Babylonian kings

:* Propose deleting :Category:2nd-century Babylonian kings

:* Propose deleting :Category:2nd-century BC Babylonian kings

:* Propose deleting :Category:3rd-century BC Babylonian kings

:* Propose deleting :Category:4th-century BC Babylonian kings‎

:* Propose deleting :Category:5th-century BC Babylonian kings

:Nominator's rationale: merge per WP:NONDEF, WP:OVERLAPCAT. Since the Neo-Babylonian Empire did no longer exist after 539 BC, these categories are just populated with Persian and Seleucid monarchs. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:13, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose What does the Neo-Babylonian Empire have to do with anything? Babylon as a city continued to be an administrative center, the Babylonians kept writing regnal lists, and the List of kings of Babylon continues until either 141 BC or 224 AD. Dimadick (talk) 08:46, 26 May 2023 (UTC)
• Delete per nom. These people were not titled Babylonian kings, they were kings/monarchs for other empires which are already categorized. –Aidan721 (talk) 13:41, 26 May 2023 (UTC)
• Rename all to :Category:Xth-century kings of Babylon. As Dimadick said, the Seleucid and Persian monarchs kept calling themselves "king of Babylon", it was title acquired by conquest and annexation, if a titular / symbolic one. Aidan is correct that they weren't "Babylonian" (at least not in the sense of an "ethnicity" or "nationality"), so to avoid confusion, the obvious solution is to go for "kings of Babylon" per Suggestion B (co-developed by Marcocapelle and me): we {{xt|rename/rescope all Fooian monarchs to Monarchs of Foo, and take them out of the "People by nationality" tree}}. (In this case we don't have to do the latter; :Category:Babylonian people is already in :Category:People by former country). Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 20:38, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

:* {{ping|Nederlandse Leeuw}} I do not question the fact that they called themselves "king of Babylon". However, we categorize based on WP:DEFINING characteristics and no historian is going to refer to these kings as "kings of Babylon". Marcocapelle (talk) 07:15, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

:*:@Marcocapelle Well, not primarily, no, just like we wouldn't primarily refer to Napoleon as "King of Italy", even though he was; he is mentioned that in his infobox and is categorised as such.

:*:Incidentally, I find it interesting that Frederick Barbarossa is mentioned "King of Italy" in the infobox, but is not categorised as such. :Category:Kings of Italy has a huge gap between :Category:10th-century kings of Italy‎ and :Category:19th-century kings of Italy‎. Hmmm. I'm gonna look through some of my reference works to see what that results in. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 07:27, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

:*::Oh LOL you are responsible for creating that gap per Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2019_July_27#Category:Kings_of_Italy.

:*::{{xt|Delete per WP:NONDEF. After Otto I became King of Italy in 961 and Holy Roman Emperor in 962, the kingdom of Italy became fully integrated in the Holy Roman Empire and "King of Italy" was a mere duplicate title of the Holy Roman Emperors/German kings. In many articles about Holy Roman Emperors the title King of Italy is not even mentioned in the main text. There is only one exception, Arduin of Ivrea, who ruled independently 1002-1014, but he is already directly in :Category:Kings of Italy. Marcocapelle (talk) 08:00, 27 July 2019}}

:*::{{xt|The result of the discussion was: delete. MER-C 09:34, 4 August 2019}}

:*::Kinda makes sense. Okay I'll just take that look in my reference works to see if I'm changing my mind. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 07:30, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

:*::* "King of Italy after the 10th century is a nice analogy of non-definingness. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:32, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

:*::*:{{aut|L. de Blois & R.J. van der Spek}}, Een kennismaking met de Oude Wereld (2004). Bussum: Uitgeverij Coutinho. say on p. 44–45 that Tiglath-Pileser III (r. 745–727 BCE) still {{tq|had himself crowned as Babylonian king, and participated in the accompanying Babylonian rituals. This respect for Babylonian culture may be explained by the Assyrians' (...)}} So :Category:8th-century BC Babylonian kings were certainly still a thing of significance. This is a theme in this reference work: foreign conquerors would always respect Babylonian traditions and reign over the city and its realm in a kind of personal union. But p. 47 says:

:*::*:{{tq|The last Babylonian king, Nabonidus, was a strange man. (...) This all caused due resentment in Babylon. The city thus became an easy prey for the new power from the east: Persia.}} P. 48 continues:

:*::*:{{tq|In Babylon, there was resentment about the reign of Nabonidus and Belshazzar. Many hoped a power takeover by Cyrus would improve things. Cyrus aptly used this in his propaganda. Indeed, he showed respect for Babylon and its traditions. Babylon was not destroyed, and the cult of Marduk could continue. In that regard, however, Cyrus did not act much different from most Assyrian kings.}}

:*::*:So, de Blois & van der Spek call Nabonidus {{tq|the last Babylonian king}}, and unlike with Tiglath-Pileser III, they do not explicitly say whether Cyrus had himself crowned {{tq|as Babylonian king}} or not. But the {{tq|respect shown for Babylon and its traditions}} is directly linked with {{tq|most Assyrian kings}} which conquered Babylon in the past (like Tiglath-Pileser III), and which they do call {{tq|Babylonian kings}}. So do they consider Cyrus a {{tq|Babylonian king}} or not? If yes, what makes Nabonidus {{tq|the last Babylonian king}}? If they mean the last independent/sovereign Babylonian king, they may have a point, which you also made about the kings of Italy. Hah, well, it's interesting. This takes me back to the early days of studying history in college. :) Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 08:08, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

:*::*::@Marcocapelle In the Behistun Inscription, Darius the Great calls himself inter alia "king of Babylon": {{tq|King Darius says: These are the countries which are subject unto me, and by the grace of Ahuramazda, I became king of them: Persia [Pârsa], Elam [Ûvja], Babylonia [Bâbiruš], Assyria [Athurâ], (...)}}

:*::*::He also called rebel king of Babylon Nebuchadnezzar III, who (falsely) claimed to be a son of Nabonidus, a liar: {{tq|This is Nidintu-Bêl. He lied, saying "I am Nebuchadnezzar, the son of Nabonidus. I am king of Babylon."}} (I guess that makes Nidintu-Bêl similar to Andriscus, who (probably falsely) claimed to be a grandson of Perseus of Macedon and called himself "Philip VI").

:*::*::However, de Blois & van der Spek indicate on p. 49:

:*::*::{{tq|Before [Darius], the (Persian) empire had been divided into superprovinces ('satrapies'). For example, the former Neo-Babylonian empire was one satrapy. Darius reorganised this division and created some twenty smaller satrapies (...). A satrapy was governed by a governor ('satrap').}} So it becomes clear that Babylon(ia) was essentially annexed by either Cyrus or Cambyses II already and made into a satrapy i.e. province with a satrap i.e. non-dynastic governor, and Darius just further dismembered it into yet smaller provinces. Seems like "King of Babylon" was pretty much titular by then; an honorific that no longer meant anything, and certainly not a personal union between theoretically equal and independent/sovereign kingdoms.

:*::*::Alright, I'm changing my mind and support delete per nom. Thanks for challenging me! Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 08:39, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

• Delete While this title may have been self styled into secondary titles, this is no longer defining after the fall of the empire. - RevelationDirect (talk) 04:43, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 01:05, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Marina Sena}}

:Nominator's rationale: Unnecessary eponymous category for an article for one album which is already appropriately categorized. WP:OCEPON Starcheerspeaksnewslostwars^{Talk to me} 00:53, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

• Delete per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:05, 26 May 2023 (UTC)
• Delete per nom. –Aidan721 (talk) 13:41, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 01:05, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Books by Celeste Buckingham}}

:Nominator's rationale: Category only contains one item and is unlikely to grow, thus currently unnecessary. WP:NONDEF, WP:SMALL ForsythiaJo (talk) 03:30, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

• Delete per nom. The book is already in a nationality and genre tree, so no need to merge. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:10, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

:The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 01:05, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

:* Propose deleting {{lc|Books by Carmel Buckingham}}

:Nominator's rationale: Author doesn't even have their own article, and category only contains one item. WP:GNG. ForsythiaJo (talk) 03:30, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

• Delete per nom. The book is already in a nationality and genre tree, so no need to merge. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:11, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

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:The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.