.
First, there is consensus that any BLP issues/concerns have been addressed per WP:RNEUTRAL, as Ilham Aliyev is described in multiple reliable sources as a dictator.
However, there is another issue: there are multiple people who could be considered as an "Azerbaijan dictator", as Ovinus argued, which is a strong reason for deletion. Disambiguation was suggested as an alternative, however multiple people explicitly opposed disambiguation at the current title, noting that "Azerbaijan leader" would be a better disambiguation page (there was no opposition to that proposal if someone wishes to create that, though no one explicitly supported it). Legoktm (talk) 04:15, 19 October 2022 (UTC)
I just want to make sure that this is an alright redirect. I know we have some strict rules about articles dealing with living people. The article has multiple sources that back up this claim and I would normally agree that this is correct. If it's clear that I'm wrong I'll withdraw the nomination as a speedy keep, only submitted it because it deals with a living person. Dr vulpes (💬 • 📝) 00:43, 26 September 2022 (UTC)
:Delete. Do not redirect - This kind of redirect is inappropriate in my opinion. Even if there are sources that depict Ilham as a dictator, there are also sources that do not. This redirect is labeling, which I believe Wikipedia is not intended for. It's one thing to reflect how various sources describe someone; it's quite another to label someone. This, in my perspective, is not only unacceptable for BLP vise, but also drastically destroys neutrality balance. A b r v a g l (PingMe) 04:50, 26 September 2022 (UTC)
:Keep the arguments for deletion are not policy based. BLP does not prohibit well-sourced criticism of living individuals, and there is no requirement for redirects to be neutral: "if a redirect represents an established term that is used in multiple mainstream reliable sources, it should be kept even if non-neutral, as it will facilitate searches on such terms". Aliyev's article already discusses the perception of him as a dictator and there are many RS that describe him as such (just a few examples: [https://foreignpolicy.com/2016/03/30/freeze-the-dictator-out-azerbaijan-aliyev-obama-nuclear-security-summit/][https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/02/barack-obama-realist-foreign-policy-103861/][https://www.occrp.org/en/poy/2012/]) (t · c) buidhe 05:47, 26 September 2022 (UTC)
::Thanks for reply. Is keeping that POV redirect policy based? I do not think so. "Azerbaijan dictator"? How does that kind of pointless POV redirect, which does not even seem grammatically correct, improves Wikipedia? The only reasonable explanation I can think of is to redirect Google searches for "Azerbaijan dictator" to the Ilham Aliyev article and that is not appropriate as per WP:G10. Such kind of labeling redirect will create immediate (without reading) impressions not only about the person, but also about the country. If an article states that someone is a dictator based on the sources supplied, that is perfectly OK; but, redirect with such a contentious labeling is inappropriate and distorts neutral point of view, which is one of Wikipedia's core content policies. A b r v a g l (PingMe) 07:35, 26 September 2022 (UTC)
- Keep per WP:RNEUTRAL it's OK to redirect people from a biased title to a neutral one, and the article lead does say "Many observers see Aliyev as a dictator". Hut 8.5 07:55, 26 September 2022 (UTC)
:Keep I at first was also hesitant but Aliyew is really often mentioned as a dictator and this also by European politicians and in useful sources for Wikipedia. More than the ones brought forward above are found [https://www.lemonde.fr/en/opinion/article/2022/07/29/by-choosing-azerbaijan-as-a-gas-supplier-ursula-von-der-leyen-weakens-the-european-union_5991891_23.html here], [https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/aug/13/azerbaijan-political-prisoners-leyla-arif-yunus here], [https://www.spiegel.de/international/world/a-dictator-s-dream-azerbaijan-seeks-to-burnish-image-ahead-of-eurovision-a-806769.html here] [https://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/12/opinion/the-two-faces-of-azerbaijans-mr-aliyev.html here],[https://www.redpepper.org.uk/azerbaijan-the-pipeline-that-would-fuel-a-dictator/ here], and [https://hyperallergic.com/615519/artwashing-a-dictatorship/ here].Paradise Chronicle (talk) 08:54, 26 September 2022 (UTC)
- Keep per WP:RNEUTRAL. Neither BLP nor any other policy prohibits Wikipedia using redirects from non-neutral search terms to neutrally-titled articles, indeed where a term is in widespread use (as here) such redirects are encouraged. Thryduulf (talk) 12:07, 26 September 2022 (UTC)
- :@Hut 8.5 According to WP:RNEUTRAL, using non-neutral language is permitted in some circumstances. WP:NPOVNAME, explaining that some circumstances, indicates that non-neutral terms are generally avoided on Wikipedia, with the exception of common names. "Azerbaijan dictator" is not a common name for Ilham Aliyev article. It is a POV name, and enabling such redirection would be absurd. A b r v a g l (PingMe) 13:25, 26 September 2022 (UTC)
- ::It isn't a common name for him, but it is a common search term for him. Somebody using this search term on Wikipedia is looking for the encyclopaedia article about the only leader of Azerbaijan to be called a dictator and there is no policy based reason why we should make it harder for them to find that article. Thryduulf (talk) 15:35, 26 September 2022 (UTC)
- ::That's a very selective interpretation of RNEUTRAL, which says quite clearly perceived lack of neutrality in redirect names is not a sufficient reason for their deletion. Lack of neutrality is pretty much the only reason you've offered for deleting this redirect. WP:NPOVNAME addresses article titles and isn't relevant here because this isn't an article. Hut 8.5 17:58, 26 September 2022 (UTC)
- :::WP:RNEUTRAL refers to the WP:NPOVNAME , so it is relevant. There is no reason for inclusion, where there is policy based reasons for not inclusion. "Azerbaijan dictator" is not common name, it is not even a name. With same logic we can also redirect something like "pink pony" to the Ilham Aliyev article. Why not "pink pony"? There is no sufficient reason for its deletion and no reason for inclusion either. A b r v a g l (PingMe) 06:21, 27 September 2022 (UTC)
:* 'Keep, per the arguments above. InvadingInvader (talk) 18:05, 26 September 2022 (UTC)
- Keep Thank you everyone for clearing this up for me, again I only pushed this here because this was about a living person and I try really hard to not screw that stuff up. Also sorry to anyone who might have felt attacked or hurt by this nomination, that was never my intent. Dr vulpes (💬 • 📝) 23:31, 26 September 2022 (UTC)
:*:Dr vulpes - this is the first time I have seen a POV fork disguised as a redirect – and worst of all, obliquely in WikiVoice. There are real dictators, and our articles safely say it in WikiVoice if it is a dictator. That person is an elected President, and as the article states, {{tq|Many observers see Aliyev as a dictator}}, but I did not spend any time to verify those claims, and don't intend to do so. Regardless, nothing in that BLP warrants saying in WikiVoice that he is a dictator. Go with your initial gut feeling because it is correct more than it is not. Atsme 💬 📧 22:22, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
- Delete I'm less troubled by the BLP or NPOV implications of the redirect than its lack of accuracy and its "surprise value". It should redirect to President of Azerbaijan, if anywhere—replace "dictator" with "president" or "leader" and consider where that should go. Indeed, "Azerbaijian dictator" could mean many different things; Joseph Stalin was dictator of the Soviet Union containing Azerbaijan for decades. Finally, it is clearly a very unlikely search term (about [https://pageviews.wmcloud.org/?project=en.wikipedia.org&platform=all-access&agent=user&redirects=0&start=2022-06-09&end=2022-09-15&pages=Azerbaijan_dictator 5 pageviews per month]). Ovinus (talk) 01:32, 27 September 2022 (UTC)
- I oppose a disambiguation page here, unless the page is "Azerbaijan leader" and dictator directs there. There is no evidence that "Azerbaijan dictator" is a correct and neutral term for the people cited. It is POV pushing to describe both Aleyivs as a dictator or whoever else might fit, but not include other past leaders of Azerbaijan. Although NPOV is less important on dab pages, it's more important than on redirects; WP:DABNEUTRAL is not a thing as far as I'm aware. Ovinus (talk) 18:32, 4 October 2022 (UTC)
Delete: No issue with BLP here or with describing Aliyev as a dictator. It's more that as pointed out by Ovinus above, Ilham Aliyev isn't the only appropriate target. In addition to what was mentioned, Heydar Aliyev (Ilham's father) had a 10 year presidency described as dictatorial. This just seems like there's no appropriate target for this term. TartarTorte 17:02, 27 September 2022 (UTC)
:*DABify per Thryduulf's suggestion below. TartarTorte 16:35, 3 October 2022 (UTC)
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{{resize|91%|Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.}}
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, CycloneYoris talk! 01:39, 3 October 2022 (UTC)
::Delete following Ovinus and TartarTorte's reasoning above. It's not an appropriate page title, it's just a possible search term, and not one with a single, concrete answer. WPscatter t/c 02:16, 3 October 2022 (UTC)
- If the term can refer to multiple people then the correct course of action is a disambiguation page not deletion. Thryduulf (talk) 11:01, 3 October 2022 (UTC)
::Striking my vote in suggestion of DABifying. TartarTorte 16:35, 3 October 2022 (UTC)
- Delete per {{u|Ovinus}}' reasoning. – QueenofBithynia (talk) 15:23, 3 October 2022 (UTC)
- Keep. Valid search term with sufficient sourced mentions at the target justifying it. Oppose disambiguation per Ovinus (POV word "dictator" instead of "leader") and Abrvagl (grammatically incorrect title). Jay 💬 12:08, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
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{{resize|91%|Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.}}
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, CycloneYoris talk! 06:16, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
- Redirect To President of... per above comment. We cannot have redirects that are slurs and none of the Aliyevs would call themselves "dictator", but discussion of how the post has been used as a strongman position and not like in a democratic republic is appropriate. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 13:15, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
- Delete – first time I've seen a POV fork in the form of a redirect. It doesn't matter what we think about these people, as an encyclopedias we do not have opinions - we publish factual information and quote the opinions of others. That redirect is our creation - and it is clearly POV. Ovinus has a very strong argument for deletion as well. Atsme 💬 📧 22:14, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
:The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.
