Wikipedia:Reference desk/Humanities#Depression.3F

How the celebration of heritage day enforces the application of the constitution of South africa 41.114.167.113 (talk) 19:45, 2 May 2025 (UTC)

:Presumably you're talking about Heritage Day (South Africa), and this sounds like a homework question. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:44, 3 May 2025 (UTC)

::If it is a homework question, it seems to be improperly worded, because "enforce" is clearly too strong. I'd be stumped by the question as is. Nationally celebrating rights afforded by law may strengthen the inclination of the judicial system to apply these laws faithfully, but I don't know if South Africans celebrating the day think of this as also celebrating their Bill of Rights. [https://www.parliament.gov.za/press-releases/parliament-statement-heritage-day-24-09 Here] is a Parliament Statement issued last year on Heritage Day in which the Presiding Officers of Parliament note that "Heritage Day is also a time to remember and take pride in what unites us – our Constitution".  ​‑‑Lambiam 10:01, 3 May 2025 (UTC)

I'm chipping away at adding citations and expanding this article about a Canadian politician. The article states: "When Bob Rae dropped out on the third ballot and released his delegates, Scott Brison opted to support the politically similar Michael Ignatieff." I cannot for the life of me find a source that confirms this anywhere on Newspapers.com or otherwise. Can anyone lend a hand here? MediaKyle (talk) 20:38, 2 May 2025 (UTC)

:"{{color box|grey|  Scott Brison  |white}} ... Supported Rae, then Ignatieff."^{[https://www.cbc.ca/news2/background/liberals/leadershiprace.html]}  ​‑‑Lambiam 09:40, 3 May 2025 (UTC)

::You're my hero, thank you. MediaKyle (talk) 10:30, 3 May 2025 (UTC)

= May 4 =

There are some truck images where they are painted in some pop culture patterns (like [https://colectiedesurprize.wordpress.com/turbo/turbo-sport-1-70-albastru/#jp-carousel-915 Peterbilt 359]), seemingly related to historical American trucking culture. But finding reasonably large images of such painted trucks to discern and identify the paintings was tough for me - most appear only on scale models rather than actual trucks (like that Peterbilt as a Revell model). Are there any sources specifically dealing with such art paintings on trucks? And are those paintings based on actual trucks? Brandmeister^talk 10:43, 4 May 2025 (UTC)

:By "identify", do you mean, "identify the original of which this is a copy"? I expect most to be original art work, not unlike typical graffiti murals.  ​‑‑Lambiam 11:13, 5 May 2025 (UTC)

::I mean to identify what is actually depicted on them (which may include the original paintings). Brandmeister^talk 11:17, 5 May 2025 (UTC)

:::I can only speak to the phenomenon in my locality. I only notice it when there’s a convoy of locally-owned trucks, often due to a funeral of one of their own. To pay their last respects, they use their work trucks in a procession of mourners, often heading to the gravesite or memorial. When this happens, and it is pretty rare, you get to see the unique art work they have used on their trucks. Rarely does it appear like the example you provide, but it does happen. In my area there is more of a focus on unique fonts and calligraphy intermeshed with some colors and graphics. One particular trucking company, however, took it to another level entirely, and hired multiple artists to paint huge murals on the sides of their trucks. To be honest, I had never seen anything like it before, and the artists were given carte blanche to do whatever they wanted on these giant box trucks as long as it included the company name and a landscape image depicting the product. Some of the work was truly amazing and I did manage to get some pics of a few trucks, but there were many I missed. One of the things I noticed was that out of the four or five artists they hired, only one was truly great, with the rest all variations on mid or below. What was cool is that this one artist made their signature style easy to identify with a kind of airbrush-like style and approach that incorporated Chicano art from the 1960s and 1970s into their work along with immersive, optical illusions and themes that made it look like the art was a real scene spilling out of the contents of the back. But to your point: some of the trucks in the funeral convoy I spoke about did resemble the Peterbilt 359, but these were all custom jobs traceable to local artists. Like Lambiam says above, it’s all original work. It might be a long shot, but you could try searching for Chicano art and trucking online, as there’s a huge culture of Mexican-American artists who specialize in trucking art. Viriditas (talk) 19:55, 8 May 2025 (UTC)

I was asking questions about Aztec and Inca History to a friend who studied anthropology and colonial history of Latin America, and he told me most Inca Emperors, except maybe the last one and Huascar and Atahualpa, were "probably not real". I don't know if his view is common or not, and I didn’t find anything on Wikipedia, so I'm asking here. Did the Inca Kings really exist? 80.187.85.122 (talk) 14:00, 4 May 2025 (UTC)

:You could start by asking him to prove his assertion. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:08, 4 May 2025 (UTC)

::It's so improbable that the Incan Empire, with its extensive irrigation system, didn't have a succession of rulers. If you look at the Sapa Inca article, there are only 13 emperors. There is a great deal of rather ordinary and believable detail about them, such as being the third son, setting up a school system, or being poisoned in a plot over succession. The only troubling aspect is that each of them was said to have ruled for nearly exactly 30 years. Perhaps there were some Chester A. Arthurs and William Henry Harrisons among them that were left out of the oral histories. Abductive (reasoning) 21:12, 4 May 2025 (UTC)

:::Arthur had a rather normal-length presidency; it was his predecessor, Garfield, who is much more analogous to Harrison. Nyttend (talk) 02:28, 5 May 2025 (UTC)

::::Garfield is remembered because he was assassinated. Abductive (reasoning) 06:08, 5 May 2025 (UTC)

In {{cite book|last=McCallum|first=R. B.|author-link=R. B. McCallum|title=Public Opinion and the Last Peace|url=https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.52967/page/n121/mode/2up|year=1944|publisher=Oxford University Press|page=110}} we read "Professor Brogan has remarked that to fail to understand Hitlerite Germany required not merely ignorance but will." I would be grateful to known when and where Brogan said that. Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 22:16, 4 May 2025 (UTC)

:Here is a trail of my fruitless search. In the same book (Public Opinion And The Last Peace), McCallum writes, "{{serif|Professor Brogan has pointed out that Englishmen who professed such admiration for the constructive work of the Nazis and Fascists forget that France carried out a great construction of her own.}}"^{[https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.52967/page/n175/mode/1up]} It appears quite plausible to me that this derives from the same source as the "not merely ignorance but will" pronouncement. The statement has a footnote citing as source: {{serif|{{nowrap|D. W. Brogan.}} The Development of Modern France, p. 599.}} The same work by Brogan is cited elsewhere in McCallum's book, and it is the only work by Brogan named there. It is indeed a source for the French reconstruction effort,^{[https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.183465/page/n593/mode/2up]} but I failed to find some version of the "not merely ignorance but will" or "admiration ... forget" pronouncements anywhere in this work.

:In an article on Lord Halifax, McCallum has mentioned the "not merely ignorance but will" pronouncement using a slightly different wording:

::{{serif|Sir Denis Brogan has said that to misunderstand Hitler's intentions required not only ignorance but will-power.}}^{[https://books.google.com/books?id=5YJMAAAAYAAJ&dq=%22not+only+ignorance+but+will-power%22&hl=en]}

:The verb forms (remarked, pointed out, said) leave open the possibility that the source is a speech delivered by Brogan.  ​‑‑Lambiam 10:56, 5 May 2025 (UTC)

::{{re|Lambiam}} Thank you (twice) for the above, I was going to look up Brogan on French reconstruction later, you have saved me the effort. As for my original question, I have found the answer. I found:

::

And to be deceived about Hitler’s Germany required more than ignorance, it required will. There was abundant evidence of the character of the leaders of the Third Reich, their aims, their ideals. Those aims and ideals were as odious and dangerous in theory as in practice. There was no ground for the illusion that Nazi Germany was evolving towards decency; it was getting worse and worse ; more and more like its own vision of itself the longer it lasted. People can believe anything, but the suspension of disbelief in the evident that marked so many commentators on Germany, so many visitors of eminence to Germany between 1933 and 1939, gives a new and more depressing extension to “anything”.

::in {{cite book|last=Brogan|first=D. W.|title=Is Innocence Enough? Some reflections on foreign affairs|url=https://archive.org/details/isinnocenceenoug0000brog/page/68/mode/2up?view=theater|year=1941|publisher=Hamish Hamilton|location=London|page=69|chapter=Broadbent Abroad|url-access = registration}}. DuncanHill (talk) 12:25, 5 May 2025 (UTC)

:::Hiding in plain sight at Denis William Brogan. 2A00:23D0:40A:C501:3012:1D64:4442:BE80 (talk) 13:13, 5 May 2025 (UTC)

::::I added it to the article! DuncanHill (talk) 13:17, 5 May 2025 (UTC)

= May 5 =

Why is Lalitpur District part of Uttar Pradesh, and not part of Madhya Pradesh, which almost completely surrounds it? I know state boundaries were set to match linguistic borders, but their articles' infoboxes suggest that both states are predominately Hindi-speaking. Neither the district article nor Lalitpur, India explains this, and neither Uttar Pradesh nor Geography of Uttar Pradesh mentions Lalitpur. Nyttend (talk) 02:52, 5 May 2025 (UTC)

:Lalitpur was in the United Provinces (see United Provinces of Agra and Oudh and United Provinces (1937–1950)) before they were re-named Uttar Pradesh. Before that it was in North-Western Provinces and before that Agra Presidency. Presumably when the states were re-organised in 1956 there was no compelling reason to move it from a Hindi-speaking state of which it had been a part for many years, to another Hindi-speaking state. DuncanHill (talk) 11:38, 5 May 2025 (UTC)

::Yes, the savings in not having to redo signs & stationery etc is often thought to be the reason why the universal abbreviation "U.P." was able to remain "U.P." (Uttar Pradesh = "Central region"), despite not really being very central in any geographical sense. Johnbod (talk) 03:28, 6 May 2025 (UTC)

:::'Uttar' means 'north', 'Madhya' means 'middle' --Soman (talk) 22:26, 6 May 2025 (UTC)

In {{cite book|last=Duster|first=A Gentleman with a|author-link=Harold Begbie|title=The Mirrors of Downing Street|url=https://archive.org/details/mirrorsofdownin00begbuoft/page/56/mode/2up|edition=Popular|year=1922|publisher=Mills & Boon, Limited|location=London|page=56|chapter=Lord Northcliffe}} we read "I think Scrutator in Truth has uttered the truest and therefore the most useful reflection on Lord Northcliffe's life." Begbie then describes Scrutator as "sane and responsible" and quotes him at length. So, who was Scrutator? Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 23:11, 5 May 2025 (UTC)

:Reviewing Newspapers.com (pay site), I see over 41,000 ocurrences of the word "Scrutator". It often seems to be used in reference to the process for choosing a new Pope, implying one who scrutinizes the process. However, I also ran across a 1940 obit that said a person known as "Scrutator", the pen name of a London Times editorialist, had died. His name was Herbert Sidebotham. Might this be it? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:15, 6 May 2025 (UTC)

:In William Cushing's [https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Uz6j9VBcPWcC&pg=PA263#v=onepage&q&f=false Initials and Pseudonyms: A Dictionary of Literary Disguises] (1886) he's identified as Henry Du Pré Labouchère, Truth's editor, but since Labouchère died in 1912 that's no answer to your question. We're perhaps looking at a William Hickey kind of franchise. --Antiquary (talk) 09:30, 6 May 2025 (UTC)

::I think it must have been a William Hickey-type of situation, and also it's clear more than one paper had a Scrutator. Sidebotham was Sunday Times, and others used the name there. The Morning Leader also had a Scrutator. I've now had a chance to look at some of the columns in Truth. Some appear under the name "A Truthful Tory", which was an acknowledged "William Hickey". Others do not have a byline. The 1929 Truth obituary of Robert Augustus Bennett, "until recently the editor of Truth", says his earliest contributions (he started writing for Truth in 1884) included occaisional "Scrutator" articles. So "a Truth journalist" is probably as close as we will get, absent the files. DuncanHill (talk) 09:56, 6 May 2025 (UTC)

:::Columnists need not be involved in the process of presenting of news, so I'm not sure every columnist would be considered a journalist. "A Truth columnist" may be a mere appropriate label.  ​‑‑Lambiam 10:19, 6 May 2025 (UTC)

::::A journalist need not be involved in the process of presenting of news either! OED journalist "One who earns his or her living by editing or writing for newspapers, magazines, etc", dated to 1693. OED columnist "Originally U.S. One who writes a ‘column’ in the newspaper press. In the U.S. sometimes with the jocular spelling colyumist. Dated to 1920. DuncanHill (talk) 10:30, 6 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::I agree that that's the British usage, at any rate, of journalist. I believe I've even come across newspaper cartoonists being so described, though crossword compilers, hmm, that might be pushing it. If we're dipping into the OED I'll add scrutator, "one who examines or investigates", so an obvious choice for any writer of political or social comment, whether in Truth or elsewhere. --Antiquary (talk) 12:45, 6 May 2025 (UTC)

= May 6 =

Is the area informally called "German Belt" (the region in the Midwest of the United States that was settled by German immigrants) defined in some way? Were there attempts to define its borders, even in a broad way? Alternatively, what States where includes and what were not? Thank you! 79.42.50.171 (talk) 18:05, 6 May 2025 (UTC)

:"Borders", as well as "includes" both sound a little bit unconstitutional for that matter. Also note that emigrants might ( and often should better ) cultivate some pride out of their ethnic roots without necessarily associate to it unconditional attachment to all other groups of broadly the same heritage. --Askedonty (talk) 18:32, 6 May 2025 (UTC)

::There's a very nice map in the European Americans that shows that even in 2020, there are a lot of German-Americans in the Upper Midwest (from Pennsylvania stretching to Montana). I would say that attempts are rarely, if ever made in the US to define borders of ethnic groups. Race maybe. Abductive (reasoning) 23:58, 6 May 2025 (UTC)

:::Did you mean the first map in German Americans? Using entire states gives only a very rough approximation. This article has a sentence,

::::::No, I meant the map in European Americans. It shows county by county. Abductive (reasoning) 18:31, 7 May 2025 (UTC)

::::"There is a German belt consisting of areas with predominantly German American populations that extends across the United States from eastern Pennsylvania, where many of the first German Americans settled, to the Oregon coast."

:::It is labelled "[citation needed]". If "with predominantly German American populations" means that over half the population has full or partial German ancestry, this overstates the case. The section {{section link|German Americans#19th century}} has a more detailed map of the density of the German population compiled from the 1870 census data, using a different criterion: number to the square mile. The "Belt" as seen there extends west as far as Kansas and Nebraska, which at the time of publication could be considered extending "across the United States"; Colorado and Wyoming had not yet achieved statehood. The peak of the German immigration had yet to come; it would be interesting to see a map of the 1900 census.

:::A description from 1909, using geometric boundaries, is given here:

::::{{tq|... the German Belt — that is, between Northern New York and Mason and Dixon's Line, and running westward — ...}}^{[https://archive.org/details/bub_gb_Q9lCAAAAIAAJ/page/62/mode/1up]}

::: ​‑‑Lambiam 07:57, 7 May 2025 (UTC)

Happened in Canada recently. Conservative leader Pierre Poilievre was defeated in his riding of Ottawa, but is going to run in a by-election soon because Damien Kurek essentially gave him his very safe Alberta seat. Are there precedents? Doesn't need to be national level or Canadian. Matt714931 (talk) 21:37, 6 May 2025 (UTC)

:Without invoking specific instances, I will say that in the UK, in the far-from-unknown instance of a party leader losing in their own constituency, it is pretty much the usual thing for a less prominent member in a safe seat to give it up in order for the leader to return to Parliament via the resulting by-election.

:(Technically they cannot actually resign, but instead go through the procedural charade of applying for one of two supposedly paid jobs that no longer really exist, but which are deemed "offices of profit under the Crown", employment in which disqualifies them from Parliamentary membership.) {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.2.101.226 (talk) 22:40, 6 May 2025 (UTC)

::Similar things have happened in Australia. It's worth noting that in such cases, that less-prominent member will be will usually be rewarded with something such as a simple and confortable ambassordorship or the like.

:::And there are lots of precedents in Canada as well, both at the federal level and in various provincial legislatures. I believe we had a question about, this, concerning Mark Carney, only a few weeks ago. There's almost always some sort of compensation for the member who gives up his or her seat. Xuxl (talk) 13:49, 7 May 2025 (UTC)

:A famous British case - in the 1906 United Kingdom general election the Tory leader, Arthur Balfour, lost his seat Manchester East (UK Parliament constituency). Alban Gibbs, MP for City of London (UK Parliament constituency) resigned and Balfour won the February 1906 City of London by-election. I don't know if Gibbs received any kind of reward. DuncanHill (talk) 11:19, 8 May 2025 (UTC)

::Well he was already in line to inherit a peerage (as he did 18 months later), the usual reward in such cases. Johnbod (talk) 15:06, 9 May 2025 (UTC)

:::"As a reward you can wait for your father to die, when you'll get what you would have got anyway if you hadn't made this sacrifice for me" is quite Balfourish but surely not very motivating. DuncanHill (talk) 15:50, 9 May 2025 (UTC)

• William Lyon Mackenzie King had a couple of similar situations while Prime Minister of Canada. He lost his seat in the 1925 Canadian federal election, but Charles McDonald resigned so that King could run for McDonald's former seat in a by-election (he won). In the 1945 Canadian federal election, King, again as Prime Minister, lost his seat, but William MacDiarmid resigned so that King could run for MacDiarmid's former seat in a by-election (he won). --Metropolitan90 (talk) 04:15, 10 May 2025 (UTC)

= May 7 =

In many countries as Pakistan, Syria, Iraq there are target killings of Shias by Sunni groups. Even Al Qaeda and ISIS have killed many Shias.

Most Muslim countries did not attack Israel, like Pakistan, Turkey, Egypt even though they have good military strength.

In many countries, Shia Iran is helping Shia groups in Yemen, Syria.

Shias are less than 14 percent of all Muslims. Many Sunnis don't consider Shias as Muslims.

Iran and their Shia groups, they are facing violence from Sunnis in many places, but it seems Shias have taken the full responsibility on behalf of all Muslims to fight against Israel and USA?

When Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and most Sunni countries are not fighting with Israel and USA, why Iran and their Shia groups are fighting. They don't know they cannot defeat Israel and USA? SilverfangDragon (talk) 03:35, 7 May 2025 (UTC)

:The article Arab–Israeli conflict might provide some answers. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 06:04, 7 May 2025 (UTC)

:::Not many Arabs in Iran though. DuncanHill (talk) 15:53, 7 May 2025 (UTC)

::and Iran–Israel proxy conflict. AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 11:15, 7 May 2025 (UTC)

:::There is a discussion at Axis of Resistance too. Abductive (reasoning) 18:29, 7 May 2025 (UTC)

{{multiple image

| align = right

| direction = vertical

| width = 230

| image1 = 1940-65 RCAF Ensign (maple foregrounded).jpg

| caption1 = The ensign

| image2 = H.M.P. on flag heading of a 1940-65 RCAF ensign.jpg

| caption2 = Letters "H.M.P." and an indistinguishable logo

}}

I recently bought from Ebay a 12x6ft woollen 1940-65 RCAF ensign, and found letters "H.M.P." on its flag heading. Given that the seller got the ensign from someone else, these three letters could be the only possible trace left for probing into its source. Having failed to find anything useful on my own, I humbly seek help from you omniscient English Wikipedians. —— 王桁霽 (talk) 21:42, 7 May 2025 (UTC)

:[https://acesofww2.com/can/aces/zary.htm H M P Zary], and a smudged Red Indian logo. DuncanHill (talk) 22:26, 7 May 2025 (UTC)

::Would be good if it were so, but his initials are H. P. M. rather than H. M. P.; he's notable for an article per our standards for aces, but not my field unfortunately. Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk) 22:32, 7 May 2025 (UTC)

:::He comes up as HMP in other results, eg [https://www.rcafassociation.ca/heritage/history/403-squadron-orb/403-squadron-operations-record-book-1945/ 403 Squadron Operations Record Book 1945]. DuncanHill (talk) 22:36, 7 May 2025 (UTC)

::::There are book sources that have "{{serif|{{nowrap|H. P. M. Zary}}}}" ([https://books.google.com/books?id=Pm4fP9g1fGcC&dq=%22H+P+M+Zary%22&hl=en], [https://books.google.com/books?id=3WEvAAAAMAAJ&dq=%22H+P+M+Zary+DFC%22&hl=en]) or "{{serif|{{nowrap|Henry Paul Michael Zary}}}}" ([https://books.google.com/books?id=4fjnDwAAQBAJ&pg=PT120&dq=%22Henry+Paul+Michael+Zary%22&hl=en], [https://books.google.com/books?id=KqJ2BQAAQBAJ&pg=PA1921&dq=%22Henry+Paul+Michael+Zary%22&hl=en]). I did not find book results with the order of the secondary given names reversed.  ​‑‑Lambiam 10:18, 8 May 2025 (UTC)

::Thank you DuncanHill for the reply. I wonder why the name of a pilot would be printed thereupon, because for most of the cases the flag heading would be for the flag maker company. — 王桁霽 (talk) 00:53, 8 May 2025 (UTC)

::Wow, dear, the photo in ur link, esp the Indian emblem on the aircraft, perfectly cleared things up methinks. Now i'm fully convinced the ensign belonged to the squadron he commanded (RCAF No. 403 Squadron according to my research). Truly impressive insights. — 王桁霽 (talk) 01:03, 8 May 2025 (UTC)

:::[https://warbirdsresourcegroup.org/AARG/hpmzary.html Further research] showed that Mr Zary was also in Squadron 421, whose badge was exactly a Red Indian warrior. — 王桁霽 (talk) 01:18, 8 May 2025 (UTC)

Could them be the initials for "Her Majesty's Prison", which indicated the flag was manufactured by the incarcerated? @DuncanHill @Pickersgill-Cunliffe @Lambiam-王桁霽 (talk) 18:30, 8 May 2025 (UTC)

::::Seems unlikely. Mail sacks were famously made in prisons, but not marked in that way (ny former Scout Troop used old ones for storage). Alansplodge (talk) 15:23, 13 May 2025 (UTC)

I understand "anti-camo" was better in large black powder battles but they did have auxiliaries wearing green why didn't they get closer to ghillie suits or hand-painted camouflage? Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 23:19, 7 May 2025 (UTC)

:What are you talking about? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:49, 8 May 2025 (UTC)

::I think he's asking why it took so long for military camouflage to develop from the simple green uniforms worn by Napoleonic-era riflemen to modern-style disruptive-pattern camo. Iapetus (talk) 08:28, 8 May 2025 (UTC)

::*See also: Ye good ol' fashioned printing press --Askedonty (talk) 21:09, 8 May 2025 (UTC)

• Early developers of camouflage were actually artists of the various Modernist styles, see: List of camoufleurs. Previous movements in art like Romanticism and Neoclassicism would probably not have come up with the striking patterns of modern camouflage. It also had to do with the rapid advancement of technology in general. World War I, where modern disruptive camouflage was first used. was also the site of many other "firsts" in the technology of war. Pinguinn 🐧 09:12, 8 May 2025 (UTC)

::Although there were experiments with camouflaged uniforms in the First World War, they were never widely adopted and no army entered the Second World War in disruptive patterned clothing. Alansplodge (talk) 21:59, 9 May 2025 (UTC)

:::I think the answer lies in the difficulty of printing camouflage patterns onto the combat uniforms used in the early 20th-century. In Europe, these made from wool and you can't print easily onto woollen cloth such as serge. The first camouflaged garments in the 1940s were often cotton tropical uniforms. The first widely issued British camouflaged garment was the Denison smock which was a cotton twill jacket designed to go over the woollen serge Battle Dress; the pattern itself was originally painted on by hand. Uniforms of cotton and other fabrics replaced woollen ones in the 1950s. Alansplodge (talk) 21:59, 9 May 2025 (UTC)

= May 8 =

Someone on the interweb says it is, and that the Title of Nobility Clause therefore precludes Trump despite his interest in the job[https://x.com/WhiteHouse/status/1918502592335724809] and Sen. Graham's endorsement.[https://x.com/LindseyGrahamSC/status/1917331380297478530] I see there was once a papal coronation but while not formally abolished, it hasn't been practiced since 1978. Likewise I don't see anything in papal titles specifically connoting nobility. I understand that the papal conclave finished its deliberations for today without electing a new Pope, so it's possible they are debating this issue right now. But, I'm wondering whether the matter has already been studied as it may be of some urgency ;). Obviously since Cardinals are "princes of the Church", Trump can't become a Cardinal while serving as POTUS, but the Pope is not a Cardinal similar to how the King is not a subject. Thanks and I'm not seeking legal advice. 2601:644:8581:75B0:1602:415C:D21D:EF59 (talk) 02:17, 8 May 2025 (UTC)

: The issue is null and void. While canon law permits any baptised Catholic male to be elected pope, (a) nobody other than a cardinal or at least a bishop has been elected for many centuries, and (b) DJT isn't a baptised Catholic to begin with. As usual, this is him using a completely ludicrous premise, narcissistically to cause the world to talk about him. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 03:42, 8 May 2025 (UTC)

:Here's the origin of the word "pope".[https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=pope] And I doubt very much that DJT has come up in conversation at the conclave, except maybe as a joke. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:48, 8 May 2025 (UTC)

:While Jack of Oz and Baseball Bugs are correct, I’ll go ahead and answer the question. The clause in question states: “No Title of Nobility shall be granted by the United States: And no Person holding any Office of Profit or Trust under them, shall, without the Consent of the Congress, accept of any present, Emolument, Office, or Title, of any kind whatever, from any King, Prince, or foreign State.” The Vatican is a foreign State, and the office of Pope is an Office or Title, so the President (and any other U.S. officer) cannot accept it without the Consent of the Congress. I suppose that the President could become Pope with congressional Consent, although it might be an interesting question whether Congress could give such a Consent under the First Amendment. John M Baker (talk) 03:52, 8 May 2025 (UTC)

::How would the first amendment figure into it? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:59, 8 May 2025 (UTC)

::Happens all the time. It is common for the US ambassador to the Holy See to be awarded a Papal knighthood. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 04:02, 8 May 2025 (UTC)

:::Does papal knighthood confer any authority on its recipient, or is it more like just a souvenir? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 04:08, 8 May 2025 (UTC)

::::These days titles of papal nobility and orders, decorations, and medals of the Holy See confer no authority. Papal knighthoods are indeed substantive and not honorary, although I am not sure that makes a difference. My understanding is that Congressional approval is routine. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 04:25, 8 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::I agree that a choice like Trump hasn't been made before, but if we can have a robot pope, then a Cheeto pope shouldn't be too much of a problem. The Vatican is a foreign state but it's not the Vatican that makes someone the pope. The College of Cardinals does that, and it's just an organization headquartered in the Vatican. Doesn't seem worse than the director of NASA also holding a professorship somewhere, which has probably happened.

Anyway, thanks everyone. If I somehow become a Cardinal tomorrow and have to choose between Trump and a robot, the info from here will undoubtedly be invaluable. 2601:644:8581:75B0:1602:415C:D21D:EF59 (talk) 06:50, 8 May 2025 (UTC)

::You still believe that Trump abides by the Constitution? The same Constitution he tramples on daily? Woke up and smell the covfefe! (Also, aren't worshippers of Satan automatically disqualified?) Clarityfiend (talk) 07:54, 8 May 2025 (UTC)

:As Trump is mildly cretinous, he probably doesn't realise that being Pope would make him a servant... Fortuna, Imperatrix Mundi 10:27, 8 May 2025 (UTC)

::Only mildly?? I'll have you know he's a very artistic person. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:44, 8 May 2025 (UTC)

:::Anatolius of Laodicea was a senator. He was acclaimed by the people and made priest and bishop in one day. 51.7.231.224 (talk)

::::{{small|Did that get him out of the Senate? If so, it worked. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 12:07, 8 May 2025 (UTC)}}

Hi,

A memorial was inaugurated in Ressaix, Belgium a few days ago, where 10 American aviators died in 1944. Should it be included in the municipality's article or does it deserve its own article? Thanks. 42.117.181.216 (talk) 10:43, 8 May 2025 (UTC)

:Depends on how much material in how many WP:Reliable sources you can initially find, and how much effort you want to expend at this time.

:An article should preferably be referenced to at least three Reliable sources of substantial length (see WP:42 for guidance), and needs to be constructed and structured suitably, which is not a trivial task especially for your first time (see WP:YFA); a mention in an article requires at minimum only one cited Reliable source and is a lot easier to perform.

:It's quite usual for a subject to begin as an inclusion within a suitable existing article, and later to be expanded into its own independent article (linked to at least the 'parent' article to avoid orphanage); this is particularly the case for a recently reported event, since in due course further material is likely to be published that can contribute to the eventual article.

:That said, the currently existing article Binche does not have separate sections about each of its several constituent towns of which Ressaix is one, (and none of them, bar one, have their own article) so an addition such as this would not easily fit into it.

:Hope this helps. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.2.101.226 (talk) 12:13, 8 May 2025 (UTC)

::Probably best place for the content would be a 384th Air Expeditionary Group#World War II. Looks like they lost 9 of 23 aircraft [https://384thbombgroup.com/_content/_pages/One384thMission.php?MissionKey=96 on the mission]. fiveby(zero) 13:14, 8 May 2025 (UTC)

:::I notice from that source that they only lost 7 of 33 aircraft (of which losses one landed in Switzerland) in the April 24 mission mentioned in the Wikipedia article, for which they were awarded their second Distinguished Unit Citation. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.2.101.226 (talk) 14:53, 8 May 2025 (UTC)

::::I was going to say that we could add a paragraph to our Ressaix article, but we don't seem to have one! Alansplodge (talk) 21:41, 9 May 2025 (UTC)

Our article on Philip Skippon says "He had first married Maria Comes of Frankenthal, Lower Palatinate, in the Netherland church there on 14 May 1622". I would like to know what was the Netherland church, what its theology, and does it still stand? Presumably some sort of Protestant, given the "Christian Centurion's" own beliefs. Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 23:21, 8 May 2025 (UTC)

:This will be the Dutch Reformed Church, of which Frankenthal was one of its centres, established by refugees at the former friary there in 1562. Reading from Dutch Reformed Protestants in the Holy Roman Empire, c. 1550–1620, it appears to have been a very strict religious environment - Skippon may have been very happy there! I am not sure if there is a surviving church or ruin from this period; the extant churches are all post-WW2 rebuilds that originated at earliest in the 1700s. Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk) 00:15, 9 May 2025 (UTC)

::From 1583 there were two churches in Frankenthal; the original for the Dutch-speaking community and a separate one for native Germans. I assume the "Dutch Church" will refer to the former. Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk) 00:20, 9 May 2025 (UTC)

:::I found the German article :de:Erkenbert-Ruine about "the remains of the former collegiate church of St. Maria Magdalena in Frankenthal (Rhineland-Palatinate). It is named after the founder Erkenbert von Frankenthal. The building was built in the Romanesque period and is the oldest architectural monument in the city". According to that article "During the Palatine Peasants' War, the abbey was plundered and damaged in 1525. The same happened with the Kirschgarten monastery in Worms, which was under his control, whose 22 canons therefore gave up their convent and moved permanently to Frankenthal. In 1562, after the Reformation, the monastery was dissolved by Elector Frederick III of the Palatinate; from then on, it served as accommodation for Protestant religious refugees from Flanders and Wallonia." DuncanHill (talk) 19:06, 11 May 2025 (UTC)

= May 9 =

Hi all,

This thought came to me in light of the recent papal conclave. Would it be possible for a woman to become Pope? From my understanding, a Pope can be any baptized Catholic male, but why can it not be a baptized Catholic female as well?

The page on papal conclaves says that "[as] women cannot be validly ordained, women are not eligible for the papacy." I don't quite understand what this means (I'm not Catholic), and what exactly does 'ordination' mean? Why is it only limited to men?

Not quite sure if I've answered my own question here, but still gonna post anyway. Thanks, all! PhoenixCaelestis (Talk · Contributions) 01:04, 9 May 2025 (UTC)

:You can read about the legend of Pope Joan. It's a fascinating story that rings true for me, but has been dismissed by many others. Viriditas (talk) 02:05, 9 May 2025 (UTC)

:The answer is No. The Catholic Church forbids women from the priesthood. (They are not the only Christian sect to do so, FYI.) They claim its based on rules in the Bible. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 04:15, 9 May 2025 (UTC)

::Perhaps "denomination" would be a better term than "sect" in this context. All the best: Rich Farmbrough 08:15, 9 May 2025 (UTC).

:::Whatever. In any case, further info in response to both of the OP's questions can be found in Ordination of women. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 08:45, 9 May 2025 (UTC)

::::Especially in Ordination of women and the Catholic Church.  ​‑‑Lambiam 09:13, 9 May 2025 (UTC)

::The Pope is the bishop of Rome. Therefore only bishops can become Popes. If the elected person is not a bishop, they cannot, according to current canon law of the Catholic Church, as yet be ordained to the episcopate, since [https://www.vatican.va/archive/cod-iuris-canonici/eng/documents/cic_lib4-cann998-1165_en.html#THE_CELEBRATION_AND_MINISTER_OF_ORDINATION Canon 1013] states: "No bishop is permitted to consecrate anyone a bishop unless it is first evident that there is a pontifical mandate." Since the Pontificate is vacant, there is no mandate. A woman cannot be ordained at all, since [https://www.vatican.va/archive/cod-iuris-canonici/eng/documents/cic_lib4-cann998-1165_en.html#THOSE_TO_BE_ORDAINED Canon 1024 states]: "A baptized male alone receives sacred ordination validly."

::This does not explicitly exclude transgender Popes. This is unexplored territory. But, also, canon law is not sacred doctrine laid down by dogmatic constitution; it can be changed.  ​‑‑Lambiam 09:06, 9 May 2025 (UTC)

:::The point of prohibiting episcopal consecration without a pontifical mandate is to ensure that nobody goes around consecrating bishops on his own authority: cf. episcopus vagans. It doesn't prohibit the ancient practice of consecrating a newly elected non-bishop. Also see the [https://www.britannica.com/topic/pope Britannica article "pope"], which notes that since Vatican II, "the authority of the bishops as a single collegial body cannot be separated from that of the pope as the head of that body"; since these sources of authority are inseparable, it would be absurd to consider the authority of the princes of the Church (who alone can choose the Pope) to be insufficient to consecrate a bishop. Nyttend (talk) 02:04, 10 May 2025 (UTC)

::::The Code of Canon Law specifically contemplates that a non-bishop might be elected pope. [https://www.vatican.va/archive/cod-iuris-canonici/eng/documents/cic_lib2-cann330-367_en.html#CHAPTER_I. Can. 332] states: "The Roman Pontiff obtains full and supreme power in the Church by his acceptance of legitimate election together with episcopal consecration. Therefore, a person elected to the supreme pontificate who is marked with episcopal character obtains this power from the moment of acceptance. If the person elected lacks episcopal character, however, he is to be ordained a bishop immediately." --Metropolitan90 (talk) 04:04, 10 May 2025 (UTC)

We state, following William Safire that a landslide victory is one in which the opponent is buried. I am inclined to think that this is not the origin of the term, instead it's the nature of a landslide, nothing or little seems to happen then a huge event occurs. It would be called a "landslide defeat", or maybe a "grave defeat", if one wanted to emphasise the burial and the loser, rather than the winner.

It also seems to me that a defn. based on the number of seats majority (as in 100 seat majority mentioned the UK section) is wrong. If the Greens had a 100 seat majority in the Commons and another election took place after which they had a 101 seat majority (or even the reverse, 101 going to 100) this would not be a landslide majority, as no "land" has "slid", although it would fit the defn. A landslide requires a substantial change, usually in the electoral results. (A significant increase in the popular vote for a single sitting candidate (or a single candidate of the sitting party) might, I think, be considered a "landslide".)

All the best: Rich Farmbrough 08:15, 9 May 2025 (UTC).

:A landslide is a win by a large margin.[https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=landslide] If you want to argue with Safire's statement that it means the opponent is "buried", take it up with him. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 08:55, 9 May 2025 (UTC)

::{{u|Rich Farmbrough}}, I do not agree that "substantial change" in the results are required for an election to be called a landslide. US President Franklin D. Roosevelt received 88.9% of the electoral votes in 1932, 98.5% in 1936, 84.6% in 1940 and 81.4% in 1944. All four victories were clearly landslides even though the 1944 result was 17 points lower than the 1936 result.

::Yes, Safire was buried in 2009. Or maybe cremated. Cullen328 (talk) 09:02, 9 May 2025 (UTC)

:::He was buried in the [https://www.findagrave.com/cemetery/2277659/king-david-memorial-garden King David Memorial Garden], Idylwood, Virginia.  ​‑‑Lambiam 09:20, 9 May 2025 (UTC)

:Thanks all. All the best: Rich Farmbrough 10:27, 9 May 2025 (UTC).

: The phrase has been reduced to meaninglessness by the media's description of every electoral victory as a "landslide", no matter how narrow or how much cobbling together of a coalition has to be done to achieve a parliamentary majority. Daveosaurus (talk) 12:27, 9 May 2025 (UTC)

::Yes - my purely personal benchmark for a landslide is 80+ % of the votes cast. If, as often happens, one is claimed for a significantly smaller margin of victory, I am much less incluined to trust anything else the person says. I don't think bringing geology in helps any. Johnbod (talk) 15:01, 9 May 2025 (UTC)

:::It depends a lot on the election system. In proportional representation, getting 25% of the votes is a huge victory and likely to give you a plurality of the seats in parliament. PiusImpavidus (talk) 18:39, 9 May 2025 (UTC)

::::Yes, yes - but you couldn't call it a landslide. Johnbod (talk) 20:30, 10 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::Well maybe you couldn't, but reliable sources like the [https://www.abc.net.au/news/2025-05-04/election-result-map-how-labor-won/105208988 ABC], [https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c9djze015xlo BBC], [https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/new-atlanticist/what-will-labors-landslide-mean-for-australias-foreign-policy-albanese/ Atlantic Council], [https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/live/2025/may/03/australian-federal-election-2025-live-news-today-anthony-albanese-labor-peter-dutton-liberal-coalition-greens-polls-vote-odds-results-politics-latest-updates The Guardian], [https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2025/05/03/australia-labor-albanese-trump-election/ Washington Post] apparently do. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:58, 10 May 2025 (UTC)

:Rich; the origin of the phrase is discussed at length in [https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=PH8YAAAAIAAJ&q=%22October+landslide+in+Italy+:+1888%22&dq=%22October+landslide+in+Italy+:+1888%22&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiPh9uNkJeNAxUfgf0HHXcXCo4Q6AF6BAgGEAM American Political Terms: An Historical Dictionary (1962) p. 234]. From what I can glean from various "snippet views", it seems that it was coined in 1888, and notes that there was a catastrophic landslide in Italy in October of that year, giving rise to US headlines such as "Scores Buried Beneath a Landslide" (NY Tribune), which does give some credance to Mr Safire's assertion. Alansplodge (talk) 21:32, 9 May 2025 (UTC)

::Landslide (without the victory) for "An overwhelming majority of votes for one party or candidate in an election; a victory achieved with such a majority." is in OED with earliest citation "1856 - If this is an index of what is going on in Ohio, look out for a landslide here on the 6th of November, for we are all going one way." DuncanHill (talk) 21:39, 9 May 2025 (UTC)

St. Malachy's Prophecy of the Popes likely actually has us good for several more Popes because there were some times when there were Antipopes, and several individuals claiming to be Pope at the same times. So how many Popes do we actually have left until Petrus Romanus?

Rome still hasn't burned to the ground and Pope Francis was supposed to be Peter the Roman, according to the old interpretations of the Prophecy.

There were Antipopes since Malachy, and several people claiming to be Popes at the same time after his prophecy was written.

So that means we still have some more Popes until Rome supposedly burns to the ground, but how many Popes do we have left when we no longer count the antipopes and co-Popes? --2600:100A:B03E:F83A:1168:850E:68A3:D675 (talk) 22:13, 9 May 2025 (UTC)

: As with the prophecies of Nostradamus, I think that these prophecies are so vaguely worded that one could attribute almost anything to each one. It's impossible to be categorical about such a vague set of words. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 23:35, 9 May 2025 (UTC)

:Holding aside the fact that removing antipopes shifts the entries in the list and makes some of the established pre-Wion 'prophecies' effectively moot, there are no missing popes from Pope Celestine II onward, and an additional 10 antipopes in the prophecy list, the removal of whom would make the current Pope Leo XIV number 103, allowing for a supposed 8 more 'normal' popes before Petrus Romanus. GalacticShoe (talk) 18:07, 10 May 2025 (UTC)

= May 10 =

what is the correct scientific terms for the following:

• a house / chamber representing on national level. NOT a bicameral parliament like US congress, but house of representatives, senate. can this be called "national assembly"?
• a house / chamber representing the people in a "one person one vote" fashion, proportionally. is this called popular chamber?
• a house / chamber representing federated unites, like US senate, swiss ständerat. is this called federal chamber?
• a house representing regions in a unitary state, like french senate. is this called territorial chamber?
• a house representing groups of people along ethnicity, religion, like House of Peoples of Bosnia and Herzegovina, is this called consociotional chamber?

and in which article explaining the different types of houses with such scientific terms would best fit into: national assembly , legislative chamber ? ThurnerRupert (talk) 20:17, 10 May 2025 (UTC)

:The terms used for various deliberative legislative assemblies around the world often have historical local roots. Many political scientists concentrate their studies on one or a few countries and will then usually use traditionally established terms. There are no set standards.

:The term parliament is used for the single chamber of a unicameral legislature or the collection of chambers of a multicameral legislature. Sometimes the term parliament is seen used for just the popular chamber of a multicameral legislature.

:Some authors use popular chamber generically for a lower, directly elected chamber, as seen e.g. [https://books.google.com/books?id=rDTe4PBYnHwC&pg=PA136&dq=%22popular+chamber%22&hl=en here], but it does not imply the election was by "one person, one vote". Instead of popular chamber, national assembly prevails in France or former French colonies; elsewhere lower house, house of representatives or second chamber are more commonly used.

:Some authors use federal chamber for a chamber with slots for the several constituent units of a federation, as seen e.g. [https://books.google.com/books?id=TZlqNqMlrPkC&pg=PT694&dq=%22federal+chamber%22&hl=en here].

:Some authors use territorial chamber for a chamber with slots representing regions, as seen [https://books.google.com/books?id=LRJEAAAAQBAJ&pg=PA72&dq=%22territorial+chamber%22&hl=en here]. I am not certain this term is reserved to unitary states.

:I have found exactly one use of consociotional chamber, referring to the Northern Ireland Assembly, in [https://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/document?repid=rep1&type=pdf&doi=2e7daec50b316fe15e862e033cdbf4e332dbd52e an unpusblished document]. If you intend to use this term, your readers will appreciate an explanation.

:Some relevant articles on Wikipedia are List of forms of government, Legislature and Legislative assembly. One might have hoped that Legislative chamber would answer your questions, but it is not very informative.  ​‑‑Lambiam 08:35, 11 May 2025 (UTC)

::second chamber seems more often to mean the "upper" house (senate, House of Lords). —Tamfang (talk) 04:00, 13 May 2025 (UTC)

= May 11 =

It isn't uncommon people use Eastern Standard Time/EST, Mountain Standard Time/MST and Central Standard Time/CST when daylight savings is observed during the date they're referring to, so they actually mean Eastern Daylight Time/EDT, Mountain Daylight Time/MDT, and Central Daylight Time/CDT. Most people and indeed most online timezone conversion tools automatically correct this so it doesn't generally cause too much confusion. The general suggestion to be technically correct and ensure no possible confusion but without having to remember to change depending on whether DST is observed or not is to just say ET/Eastern Time, Mountain Time/MT, Central Time/CT all the time. This got me wondering, it is the general taken that technically ET, MT, CT etc always mean EST/EDT, MST/MDT, CST/CDT based solely on whether DST is observed in that timezone regardless of whether it's observed in the area? So for example, if someone in Arizona MT during DST, they're supposed to be referring to MDT even if it's probably not observed in their area? Nil Einne (talk) 15:41, 11 May 2025 (UTC)

I've run into commentary about the lack of precision before the 20th century several times now, so it's a pattern of some kind and I'm trying to understand it.

I first ran into it while researching the history of recipes. According to various sources, before the 20th century, recipes were poorly defined, lacked exact measurements, and often did not define words and terms in such a way that after several centuries or so, food historians had trouble reconstructing certain recipes because there was little record of what the uniquely named ingredient or instruction meant or tried to convey. Both the ingredients, and in some cases, the measurements that were implied, had been lost to time.

The second example has to do with literature before the 20th century, mostly journalism and some historical accounts. They seemed to care little for getting dates correct, and in some cases talked around the dates for some reason. For example, I was just trying to add a citation for the gravestone donated by the Bohemian Club (BC) to the final resting place of Jules Tavernier. When I looked at the source written by the BC, it says things like "It was in this year that a monument was placed over the grave". There is no year listed anywhere, however, if you closely read the text, you have to scroll several pages up to put together and reconstruct the year in your head based on several pointers. This all seems very odd to me.

So the question: why is there a general lack of precisionism and accuracy before the 20th century? Viriditas (talk) 23:25, 11 May 2025 (UTC)

:Do any of these Findagrave entries pertain to your particular Jules Tavernier?[https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/search?firstname=Jules&middlename=&lastname=Tavernier&birthyear=&birthyearfilter=&deathyear=&deathyearfilter=&location=&locationId=&bio=&linkedToName=&plot=&memorialid=&mcid=&datefilter=&orderby=r&page=1#sr-102230601] The cause there I would say is "sloppy writing". As to the general question, spelling of names and other words prior to the 20th century is often atrocious. Governmental and other needs probably drove more rigorous spelling standards. As to recipes and such, and as with many things, the information was known at the time, and maybe no one felt the need for greater precision because they somehow thought it would last forever. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:39, 11 May 2025 (UTC)

::That's right, but what I'm getting at is why did people several centuries ago take this approach? I realize, of course, that there's several different interpretations and explanations, perhaps with some of them converging in their explanations. For example, there's the popular explanation having to do with the history of timekeeping, forcing people to become more and more precise over the years as timekeeping exerted its influence more and more in every aspect of their lives. But that doesn't explain the problem food historians have with older kinds of recipe making. I first ran into this when I reviewed criticism about Lautrec's recipes, many of which did not include exact measurements (which I believe were added into later editions of his cookbook after his death). Recently, I heard a podcast about very old recipes which were giving historians a hard time because the names of the ingredients were no longer recognized. Then, while reading about late 19th century art, I ran across several more modern critics who said they were frustrated by contemporaneous accounts of art from that time as they often failed to convey the essential information needed. Which brings me to my point: did people several centuries ago have an altogether different conception and philosophy of time and history? Why not write, "In the year 1890, the monument was placed over the grave." Why was that so difficult or impossible for the writers of that time to do? Was it seen as too proletarian or low class to specify an exact time and place for something? Similarly, why was it difficult for culinary specialists to specify an exact measurement in their recipe? Was that seen as giving away too much knowledge? Finally, there's the aspects of carelessness in 19th century journalism, as if they didn't really care about the notion of facts or accuracy. Viriditas (talk) 23:57, 11 May 2025 (UTC)

:::Or that someone reading it generations later would wonder about it. You could call that "living in the present." So which Tavernier are you talking about? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:01, 12 May 2025 (UTC)

::::Jules, the painter, but I'm offering that as an example, not the subject of this discussion. You can see the source I was talking about here.[https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Annals_of_the_Bohemian_Club/0OgKAQAAIAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=0] The source is about the time from 1890 to 1891 (as specified in the introduction), but neither mentions the month (December) day (21) or year (1890) in regards to the monument. Viriditas (talk) 00:07, 12 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::Ah, but you didn't link it initially, because you knew exactly who you were talking about. This is how information gets lost over time! ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:10, 12 May 2025 (UTC)

::::::My mum was regarded as a champion cook in her community ifrom the 1940s through to the 1990s. There were many ingredients she hardly ever measured at all. She would just pick up the container and pour until she felt the amount was right. It almost always was. She could NOT have written precise amounts if asked. HiLo48 (talk) 00:43, 12 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::::Thanks, I am learning about this. Viriditas (talk) 00:53, 12 May 2025 (UTC)

::::::::@Viriditas It's also to do with the loss of intuitive and learned technical skills and the rise of automation, which requires far more precision than was previously necessary. Shantavira|^{feed me} 08:44, 12 May 2025 (UTC)

:Also today, recipes are often woefully imprecise. I read, "Ingredients: ... two tomatoes". The weight of tomatoes I can buy at the market (not considering cherry tomatoes) ranges by an order of magnitude, as does that of apples, cucumbers, eggplants, potatoes, zucchini, you name it. Fortunately, it usually does not really matter. Precision in 19th-century recipes was only specified to the extent that it was useful. The typical 19th-century kitchen didn't have weighing scales, and precision that is unachievable with the available means is useless.

:You need high-precision engineering to make high-precision measuring instruments, but you can't achieve high-precision engineering without high-precision measuring instruments. Progress in affordable precision has been gradual. The problem of high-precision mechanical engineering of gearwheels was part of why Charles Babbage never completed his difference engine – he could not get the precision required for the gearwheels to operate with very low friction. But his renown in improving precision engineering was such that apprentices came from Europe to his workshop to learn the craft from the master.  ​‑‑Lambiam 10:01, 12 May 2025 (UTC)

::It is possible that Babbage's tolerances were too exact and that his design was over-engineered. However, a Swedish printer named Georg Schütz and his son Edwin did actually succeed in building a working Difference Engine with lesser tolerances in 1853. Two were made; one was sold to the Dudley Observatory in Albany, NY in 1858 (the director was fired for the expense): the other was sold to the Registrar General of Births, Marriages and Deaths in Somerset House, London.

::* Raymond C. Archibald. "P. G. Scheutz, publicist, author, scientific mechanician, and Edvard Scheutz, engineer—biography and bibliography".[http://www.ams.org/journals/mcom/1947-02-018/S0025-5718-47-99591-4/S0025-5718-47-99591-4.pdf Mathematical Tables and Other Aids to Computation, Vol. 2, issue 18: pp 238–245, April 1947. CODEN. MTTCAS. American Mathematical Society]

• So now, in the age of Trump, we live in a world of precision? Perhaps better no numbers than fake numbers. Johnbod (talk) 13:41, 12 May 2025 (UTC)
• "Figures don't lie, but liars do figure." ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 14:24, 12 May 2025 (UTC)

• What's important to us was not necessarily so to people back then. And vice-versa. Take the case of birth dates. They were frequently not recorded, simply because they were considered trivial and irrelevant compared to the date of the child's baptism/christening. Now, baptisms were typically done a day or two after the birth, but not always. Sometimes there was a year or more between them. The baptism date was always recorded; the birth date, not so much. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 21:55, 12 May 2025 (UTC)
• That's not it at all! Actual birthdays were not "considered trivial and irrelevant compared to the date of the child's baptism/christening", but regarded much as we do now. But the baptism was always (by law in most places) written down in the parish register which, barring accidents, still survives in most cases, while the family memory has vanished. Johnbod (talk) 13:41, 14 May 2025 (UTC)
• :I feel like we've had this discussion before! Thanks for the reminder. Viriditas (talk) 01:07, 13 May 2025 (UTC)

: Some people are simply lazy and imprecise. A glance at the refs and bibliography of almost any WP page (including FAs and GAs) will reveal a disdain for accuracy. On a slightly different precision track than time and history: Weights and measures were in vast disarray for a very long time. In Britain, the [https://www.sizes.com/library/British_law/Second_Report_1820.pdf Second Report of the Commissioners Appointed by His Majesty to consider the subject of weights and measures] (1820), contains a page of different customary acres and nearly two pages of barrels, four fothers, fourteen hundredweights, and 24 different tons, all depending on what you were measuring and where. Scientists have become more and more able to define quantities with increasing precision, but it took most of the 19th century and beyond into the 20th. The rapid progress of the railways in Britain in the 1840s made it necessary to publish timetables based on a standard time, Railway time, for example Bradshaw's. History of the metre shows that the metre was redefined in 1889. Invar was only invented in 1920. The measurement of time is still under consideration. Joseph Whitworth worked out how to make a very accurate Surface plate, essential for making lathes; is thought to have come up with the thou, and invented British Standard Whitworth in 1841, the world's first national screw thread standard. Dmitri Mendeleev published the first modern periodic table in 1869; William Ramsay discoverd the noble gases from 1894, which fill a large and unexpected gap in the periodic table and led to models of chemical bonding; J. J. Thomson discovered the electron using the cathode ray tube in 1897. The size of an atom was only determined after the invention of X-ray crystallography in the 1920s. So, an enormous amount of scientific discovery had to take place before anything like precision could be agreed on. And of course Herman Hollerith, who began building punch card-based data processing machines as early as 1884, and applied it to tabulating the results of the 1890 United States census. Even then, age was only recorded as "Age at nearest birthday". Hope you are well, old colleague. MinorProphet (talk) 20:02, 14 May 2025 (UTC)

= May 12 =

Can somebody please explain [https://youtube.com/shorts/anvX6ScDuOE?si=eAY1VMn0ZckNq82W this]? 89.1.215.232 (talk) 22:43, 12 May 2025 (UTC)

:What's to explain? People post all sorts of weird stuff on YouTube, and it isn't advisable to take it seriously. AndyTheGrump (talk) 23:39, 12 May 2025 (UTC)

::@AndyTheGrump: But the footage actually appears authentic to me, not like AI-generated or something. 🤷‍♂️ 89.1.215.232 (talk) 11:27, 13 May 2025 (UTC)

:::It would help if you could say what you find it confusing about it. It's obviously a video of the late Pope Francis conducting a church service towards the end of his life. What is so confusing about that? --Viennese Waltz 11:31, 13 May 2025 (UTC)

::::@Viennese Waltz: Certainly. Firstly, if it's really him, he would obviously be conducting an orthodox service wearing orthodox regalia, which would be totally unusual for a Roman Catholic priest. Telling by the surrounding priests all wearing masks, this must have been during the COVID crisis. Yet, I was unable to identify any pertinent coverage on such an event ever having actually taken place. Secondly, his posture doesn't look like him at all ... 89.1.215.232 (talk) 11:53, 13 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::It looks like inside the Holy Trinity Cathedral of Tbilisi. Patriarch Ilia II of Georgia is quite old and there is footage of him being supported by men wearing face masks (see e.g. [https://eurasianet.org/georgia-church-plus-cyanide-equals-intrigue this eurasianet.org article]). I don't believe your clip is "authentic". ---Sluzzelin talk 12:09, 13 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::: It may well be authentic, but it's clearly not Pope Francis in the video. Good job identifying the church and the likely subject. It looks like even the masked helpers in the video might be the exact same men as in the photo you found. The ceremony with the two candles they are performing may be part of the Orthodox Easter service, if I remember correctly. Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:21, 13 May 2025 (UTC)

::::::Quite obviously not Pope Francis, if for no other reason than Francis was much balder than that. Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk) 12:23, 13 May 2025 (UTC)

::::::: Exactly. The captions aside, if I had come across that video by chance, there's nothing in it that would have suggested to me that it's Pope Francis. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 21:26, 14 May 2025 (UTC)

Have there ever been situations where the rich have had their way because of having money, not spending it? In other words, the money had just acted as some sort of catalyst, whomever the rich were trying to influence had not actually benefited from it. JIP | Talk 23:50, 12 May 2025 (UTC)

:Yes, this kind of thing happens all the time. Blackballing is one of the most popular examples. If you're not part of the club, you're not going to get anywhere in your respective field. If someone who is rich doesn't like you, they will pull strings in the background. In this respect, power and money are almost interchangeable. I was just watching Frontline's "The Man Who Knew", which is about FBI agent John P. O'Neill. He tried to stop 9/11 from happening, but the FBI fought him every step of the way. Viriditas (talk) 00:29, 13 May 2025 (UTC)

:See also The Million Pound Note. Shantavira|^{feed me} 08:36, 13 May 2025 (UTC)

::Many defendants sued by a plaintiff with deep pockets choose to settle, even when they would almost certainly win in court, because they cannot afford the cost of a full-blown court case, including appeals. The rich party does not have to spend their money; it is sufficiently chilling to know that they could spend it.  ​‑‑Lambiam 10:49, 13 May 2025 (UTC)

:At a certain mega-level of wealth, you stop having to spend money because people will do you favours in exchange for goodwill that they hope to cash in for better treatment in business, social or government deals. I think the best known example is Steve Jobs, who famously got paid a one dollar salary - of course, [https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna22807978 he also sat on a ton of Apple stock and got things like private planes as bonuses], but he mostly didn't need to actually spend his assets to maintain his lifestyle (I think a private yacht was his one big splurge). He was influential because he was cool, rich and controlled the fastest growing company on the planet. Smurrayinchester 09:33, 15 May 2025 (UTC)

::He was also mortal. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 11:35, 15 May 2025 (UTC)

= May 13 =

Hello everyone. I recently wrote the article Atlantic Insight, and then decided to write about their subsidiary magazine of the time, Draft:Atlantic Business Magazine. I'm basically certain the Atlantic Business Magazine mentioned in [https://www.newspapers.com/article/the-toronto-star-atlantic-insight-magazi/172049568/ this news article] is the same one I'm writing about in the draft, but this magazine claims to be founded in 1989, and the one related to Atlantic Insight was founded in 1982. I can pretty well confirm they're the same company via records in the Registry of Joint Stock Companies, but that's not really an appropriate source to use. If anyone could pull up a good source that proves the connection, I'd appreciate it. Thanks, MediaKyle (talk) 11:16, 13 May 2025 (UTC)

:Other sources agree that a magazine named Atlantic Business was acquired by Lorimer in 1988.^{[https://books.google.com/books?id=vJpZAAAAMAAJ&dq=%22Atlantic+Business%22+%22James+Lorimer+in+1988%22&hl=en]} My impression is that there was a magazine named Atlantic Business, and a later one, perhaps its successor but nevertheless a different periodical, not a continuation, named Atlantic Business Magazine. While the older Atlantic Business was based in Halifax, Nova Scotia,^{[https://books.google.com/books?id=fQ6u39TBA6AC&dq=%22ATLANTIC+BUSINESS,+5502+Atlantic+St.+,+Halifax+,+Nova+Scotia%22&hl=en]} the current Atlantic Business Magazine is based in St. John's, Newfoundland and Labrador. References to articles in the earlier magazine use a two-word name for the magazine.^{[https://books.google.com/books?id=qlBlVtk9ZoIC&pg=PA256&dq=%22Atlantic+Business,+7:3+(May+1988)%22&hl=en]} The volume number in "{{serif|Atlantic Business, 7:3 (May 1988)}}" is consistent with a magazine founded in 1982. References to articles in the later magazine use a three-word name for the magazine, as does the magazine itself ("Founded in 1989, Atlantic Business Magazine is the longest publishing and most award-winning regional business magazine in Atlantic Canada."^{[https://atlanticbusinessmagazine.ca/about/]}). The volume number in "{{serif|Enachescu, M.E., 2004a. Doing business in the Atlantic offshore: Essential information every explorer needs to know. Atlantic Business Magazine, Volume 15, No 4, p. 12-22.}}"^{[https://books.google.com/books?id=9FNQAQAAIAAJ&dq=%222004a%22+%22Atlantic+Business+Magazine%22+%22Volume+15%22&hl=en]} is not consistent with a magazine founded in 1982.

:The term "Atlantic Business" occurs in Canadian Bankruptcy Reports 1993,^{[https://books.google.com/books?newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&id=NXBRAQAAIAAJ&dq=%22Atlantic+Business%22&hl=en]} but we can't see if this refers to a magazine.  ​‑‑Lambiam 20:13, 13 May 2025 (UTC)

::Thanks a lot for this, I don't know how you do it. This is some good information. I may have to begrudgingly accept that they are separate publications... There's something weird about it for sure, though. Someday I'll have to track down the last copy of Atlantic Business and the first copy of Atlantic Business Magazine. MediaKyle (talk) 15:18, 14 May 2025 (UTC)

= May 14 =

While in Bucharest last October, I took [https://www.flickr.com/photos/jmabel/54520011473 this photo]. I haven't been able to find out anything about "Club 22". There are a few online mentions of an organization of that name that seems to be involved with commemorating the 1989 revolution, but I suspect that is coincidence. There were several signs with this name along an undoubtedly valuable tract of wooded land in the Primăverii neighborhood, enough land that it could fit at least half a dozen buildings, in one of the wealthiest parts of Bucharest. I've written up a bit more in the description of the linked photo (including more on the precise location); I'm wondering if there is anything at all notable here: if not Wikipedia-notable, whether this is at least a photo we should have on Commons. - Jmabel | Talk 20:33, 14 May 2025 (UTC)

:Romanian Wikipedia mentions that Vasile Emilian Cutean was the founder of the Association Club 22, and according to [https://hotnews.ro/revolutionarul-cutean-a-ochit-casa-lui-emil-bobu-812247 this article] its HQ was located in the Primăverii neighborhood, and used to be Emil Bobu's house (Blvd Mircea Eliade 12). ---Sluzzelin talk 21:29, 14 May 2025 (UTC)

:: {{ping|Sluzzelin}} that looks like a solid lead, thanks! - Jmabel | Talk 23:06, 14 May 2025 (UTC)

:There is a website https://club22buc.portalulrevolutiei.ro/ but it lacks content. DuncanHill (talk) 21:51, 14 May 2025 (UTC)

:: Yup, that is one of the trivial mentions online that I found. - Jmabel | Talk 23:06, 14 May 2025 (UTC)

{{section resolved|Jmabel | Talk 23:31, 14 May 2025 (UTC)}}

= May 16 =

Sheridan Le Fanu wrote "Strange Event in the Life of Shalken the Painter" in 1839, when he was 25. Would he have had the opportunity to see many, or any, of Godfried Schalcken's paintings by then? From our article on Le Fanu he doesn't seem to have travelled outside Ireland at this point, so were there any Shalcken's in Dublin or elsewhere in Ireland at the time that we know of? Also, I know Gerard Douw had a niece Anthonia van Tol, but did he have any others? Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 00:14, 16 May 2025 (UTC)

:Le Fanu wrote the name of the painter as "Godfrey Schalken". [http://www.artcyclopedia.com/artists/schalcken_godfried.html Artcyclopedia] does not list any Schalcken paintings in Irish museums.

:"Velderkaust", reused by Le Fanu in The Wyvern Mystery, is not a plausible Dutch surname, so this niece is almost certainly entirely fictional.  ​‑‑Lambiam 10:32, 16 May 2025 (UTC)

::Yes, but did he have any other nieces? DuncanHill (talk) 08:12, 17 May 2025 (UTC)

:::[https://www.genealogieonline.nl/en/stamboom-tol-schakel/I1463.php Genealogieonline.nl] (not a reliable source) mentions another daughter, Marya van Tol, among Simon van Tol and Catharina Vechters's children, but I found no further information (or corroboration). ---Sluzzelin talk 10:12, 17 May 2025 (UTC)

:::More precisely, these were stepnieces, being daughters of Dou's older stepsister Trijntge (Catharina) Vechters.^{[https://books.google.com/books?id=6SdL5jmvH2QC&pg=PA345&dq=%22halve+zuster%22+%22(Catharina)+Vechters%22&hl=en]}  ​‑‑Lambiam 12:37, 17 May 2025 (UTC)

I just learnt about [https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/292/313 Principality of Monaco v. Mississippi], decided by SCOTUS in 1934. Are there any other incidents of foreign countries suing, or being sued by, a US state in US federal court? Mississippi seems to have argued against the suit on the constitutional grounds that states may not have relations with foreign countries without congressional consent (although I didn't see this being addressed by the court's opinion, which ruled for Mississippi on other grounds), and if other lawsuits of this sort have occurred, I'm left wondering if this constitutional provision has ever had an effect in those cases. Nyttend (talk) 02:42, 16 May 2025 (UTC)

= May 17 =

The United States Post Office, Custom House, and Courthouse (Fernandina, Florida) was once the seat of the United States District Court for the Southern District of Florida before the Middle District was created. Surprising, since Fernandina Beach, Florida is in the state's extreme north, the district's original northern border was at the latitude of Charlotte Harbor, Florida — 400 km south of Fernandina Beach — and the article makes no mention of boundary amendments before the creation of the Middle District. Why would the court have met outside its jurisdiction — especially extremely outside its jurisdiction, not just a tiny bit over the border? Nyttend (talk) 06:54, 17 May 2025 (UTC)

There is a particular graffiti style which I have often seen in continental Europe: each word is hand-painted in blocky black capitals, on its own painted rectangle not shared with any other word. The rectangles are all the same colour. Like this:

800px

I have never seen this in the UK, Ireland, or the US. Does the style have a name of its own? Is it found elsewhere? Marnanel (talk) 12:28, 17 May 2025 (UTC)

:@Marnanel It appears to be on sheets of paper glued to the wall rather than graffiti. I suspect this is to avoid being accused of vandalism. Shantavira|^{feed me} 18:44, 17 May 2025 (UTC)

::In Britain you'd still be accused of vandalism. Is there some French law permitting bill stickers for political purposes? DuncanHill (talk) 19:05, 17 May 2025 (UTC)