User talk:Shashi Sushila Murray

Category:Wikipedians who have received a Teahouse invitation

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I received an email with your offer to help. Please do. Any help is much appreciated, to start with answering "talk" messages. I am not sure that this is a way to answer you or even email you. the User talk: page is not friendly or easy to understand much less navigate.

I feel like a child lost in the woods.

23:58, 4 November 2018 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Alvanhholmes (talk • contribs)

:Hi, {{u|Alvanhholmes}}. I'll go through it and make some corrections to any "low-hanging-fruit" that I find. I'll do each edit one-by-one, so that you can easily see a history of these edits and revert (delete while retaining the history) any mistakes that I make by misunderstanding you. I think that what you've done so far is perfect for editors to understand your intentions, so that they can add the appropriate syntax (the wikitext code). Listing your footnotes manually as you did will allow editors to fix them using the code.

:Please note: I am not an experienced editor on wikipedia. I am educated and technically competent, but don't let that fool you if the community turns around and contradicts me.

:I'll start making edits in a short while (I have to get dinner) and I'll "email" you (we call it "pinging" where I mention you so that it sends an alert to you) when I've finished them. You can also reference these pages to learn more about communicating on wikipedia: WP:USERTALK Wikipedia:Tutorial/Talk pages. Don't be impatient though, since wikipedia can move very slowly a lot of the time (in my experience as a new editor). It might take you a number of days before you get everything finished and ready to go. No hurry. You should just keep working on your draft page as you have been working on it. 🙅🙅🙅ShAsHi SuShIlA mUrRaY😣😣😣 00:28, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

::Hi again, {{u|Alvanhholmes}}. Right when I started fixing the inline links I saw that {{u|Ariconte}} was already on it! I'm going to stay out of their way, but I'll help in any way I can. They are the authority, since they're an experienced editor. 🙅🙅🙅ShAsHi SuShIlA mUrRaY😣😣😣 00:58, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

:::Please jump in..... there is plenty to do. Regards, Ariconte (talk) 01:02, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

::::I believe that I have finished editing and correcting errors, but need someone to look over my work. Also don't know how to publish, Can you help.

and most frustratingly of all. I don't know how to email you and apparently all comments I make on this user:talk edit are not being publishedAlvanhholmes (talk) 23:45, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

:::::Hi {{u|Alvanhholmes}},

:::::I don't think I have my account set up to allow people to send me emails (I'm preserving my privacy). To "message" people on here you write messages on our talk pages just as you have done now. The talk pages are less user-friendly, because they only show you the code and don't give the option to edit with the visual editor. Talk pages are similar to internet forums with threaded conversations. So, when you visit a talk page and want to start a new conversation, you should press the "new section" button at the top of the screen (it's to the right of "Edit source" and to the left of "View history").

:::::I'll look over your page and do any edits that I can think of, but, as I said, I'm not an experienced editor on here. I'll ping the other users who were helping you as well to draw their attention.

:::::{{u|Pretended leer}} & {{u|Ariconte}}, Alvanhholmes has finished working on his draft. Would you be willing to help provide feedback for him? Or, after you've looked it over, should he submit the draft for review?

:::::Sincerely, Shashi Sushila Murray, (message me) 23:52, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

:::::: Again a million thanks for your help. I emailed Ariconte from his user: talk page, and I didn't get a copy of his email address.

Don't know for sure but I suspect that the email function sends an email to the user, but the sender doesn't get his or her email address.

But I do respect the need for privacy these days. Privacy is being passe', unfortunately. It has to be my age (79) but I can't understand how people can do this even part time. It has literally drained me, and although the tutorials are probably excellent. They go over my head, and apparently proceed from the assumption that a person has a little background. Years ago I learned how to type some php code like

Again thanks Alvanhholmes (talk) 00:05, 6 November 2018 (UTC)

:Hello, {{u|Alvanhholmes}}. About links on talk pages, you can just type the URLs like this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_page and they become links automatically. If you're linking to a page within Wikipedia and it doesn't have a question mark in the URL, you could also link to it by putting it's title between square brackets: Main page shows up as Main page. As for what you wrote by email, I'll take a closer look later today. But is the Cecily/Cicely spelling a geographical thing like Bailey/Bayley? – Pretended leer {talk} 11:47, 6 November 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for your latest assist, but I still have a problem. Under heading Emigration to the New World is a citation needed then there is a citation to reference 5. Where it says citation needed I wanted to include reference 4, but I also want to modify reference 4 to reflect https://www.encyclopediavirginia.org/Third_Charter_of_Virginia_1612, which is a more accurate cite because it is a "chapter" or subpage of the larger link, but when I used the cite button it showed the original citation (Wolfe) but that is not listed on the edit rource because it is rolled up into reflist, and I don't know how to edit reflist.

I had previously had citation 4 in the text, but it is gone now and replaced with citation needed. I The previous citation 4 was too broad, so I want to modify it to reflect the actual webpage (chapter). But when I search for citation 4 is is missing replaced with citation needed. Reference 4 is listed on the viewable page, and it needs to be modified to: https://www.encyclopediavirginia.org/Third_Charter_of_Virginia_1612, but I can't change it because it is hidden in reflist.

So confused Alvanhholmes (talk) 16:20, 7 November 2018 (UTC)

:Hi, {{u|Alvanhholmes}}. When you have the visual editor open (you press the pencil icon at the top to the left of "Publish changes..." to see the option to switch between visual and source editors), then you should be able to click on the citation's superscript font "[4]" and there will be an "Edit" button in the top right corner of the box. From there you can modify all of the fields as well as add missing fields (if any) from the expandable list at the bottom.

:After beginning to modify citation 4 I noticed that the source you're providing is a primary source. If you refer to this link, you'll see that wikipedia doesn't turn to primary sources. They are only truly usable in situations where other sources are already doing the interpretation of the primary source and the primary source would add to this. That can feel kind of maddening sometimes (especially when it's an obvious fact within the primary source), but it's because, as editors of an encyclopedia, we're not supposed to do any of our own editorializing and interpretation of primary sources. We're simply preserving what other secondary (and sometimes tertiary) sources are saying.

:So, to preserve the option of using either one or the other (or maybe even both), I created a new citation with the information from the link you provided instead. It would be easy for you to delete the old citation and preserve only the one I've created, but I wouldn't advise it as someone is only going to come around after me and remove it.

:Also, another editor, {{u|Pretended leer}} started including their comments on edits on your sandbox's talk page. That's a great place to leave these types of comments, because then more of us will see them at once. Sincerely, Shashi Sushila Murray, (message me) 19:27, 7 November 2018 (UTC)

Hi Shashi:

Thanks I learned how wto use the visual editor and it works, except for removing citation needed comments, I removed two of them the onein front of 5,46, and the one in front of citation 8 because I felt that the links cited there were valid, answered the question and did the job.

I am wondering how much more needs to be done before I publish.

Alvanhholmes (talk) 21:15, 7 November 2018 (UTC)

One more request. I have finished I hope. And the article has been moved to Draft. I would like to use my Sandbox, but am afraid that I can't as it has this remark William Farrar (settler)

From a page move: This is a redirect from a page that has been moved (renamed). This page was kept as a redirect to avoid breaking links, both internal and external, that may have been made to it

Can I use my sandbox without messing up the redirect? Or can I open a second sand box. I might look like I'm getting the hang of it all. Truth is I keep examples of successful citations and links on a Word Document and then alter them as needed.Alvanhholmes (talk) 00:38, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

:Hi, {{u|Alvanhholmes}}. I have been away from the internet with family on a vacation. I think that you can create subpages to your sandbox, but I am not an expert. I'll try to look this up for you later when I have some time to focus on this. You can also ask t he other editors who were helping you as well or even ask at the tea house forum where you first found us. I was super happy to see that your article was successfully moved to the main article space. There are still some fixes necessary, but it's great to see! Sincerely, Shashi Sushila Murray, (message me) 05:52, 13 November 2018 (UTC)

Hi Sushi. I hope you had a great vacation. My vacation days are over. Trying to ascertain my expiration date lots to do.

I inadvertently created a new user page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alvanhholmes I don't know what I did. I asked this question of the volunteer halp staff and was informed that I could, at any time, create more pages such as user:Alvanhholmes/Farrar's Island. Problem is that I don't know how to do this.

Can I change user:Alvanhholmes to user:alvanhholmes/Farrar's Island ? And how to I go about creating a new userpage?

If you get a chance could you look over my latest edited version of William Farrar (settler)

Thanks

Alvanhholmes (talk) 14:56, 13 November 2018 (UTC)

{{Archive top

|result = The signature guidelines were brought to my attention and, after I realized that I could be making wikipedia less accessible to the visually impaired, I adjusted my signature to be simple and straightforward for those relying on screen readers. Wikipedia's issues are bad enough as it is.}}

Hello. This is a message letting you know that your signature is a little bit confusing to navigate and view. Can you change your signature? More information can be found Here. Thanks, and happy editing! Thegooduser Let's Chat 🍁 02:28, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

:{{u|Thegooduser}} Would you like me to remove the emojis? It's meant to be a bit sarcastic, since I'm a huge critic of this website's pretensions and the ever-present hyper-macho posturing of the elite cadre of the editing community. Refer to this page for prior discussion with another editor guiding me to adjust my signature to adjust its wikitext length by replacing the emoji templates with emojis proper. 🙅🙅🙅ShAsHi SuShIlA mUrRaY😣😣😣 02:35, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

::{{u|Thegooduser}} I just read the section talking about accessibility for the visually impaired. I take that very seriously, (I've been very careful about being descriptive in my edits of the alt field for infobox images, for instance) so I've removed the emojis. ShAsHi SuShIlA mUrRaY 02:42, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

::Your Signature is good now, You should Link one part of it to your userpage and another part of it to your talk page. You can have 1 emoiji at the end of your signatue. That's fine. Or if you want you could Steal my signature.(lol) Thanks. :) Thegooduser Let's Chat 🍁 02:51, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

:::Thanks, {{u|Thegooduser}}. Well, to be quite honest, I'm considering making my signature even simpler now that I'm thinking of visually impaired users. Wikipedia already has massive problems with their [https://wikipediocracy.com/2014/08/26/why-women-have-no-time-for-wikipedia/ demographics], so the last thing I would want to do would be to shut out the visually impaired. I really don't want to be contributing to even more bias by unintentionally making it harder for the visually impaired to participate. ShAsHi SuShIlA mUrRaY 03:03, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

:::: Alright, {{u|Thegooduser}} after reading through this page: https://www.teachingvisuallyimpaired.com/font-legibility.html I went ahead and made my signature simple and conventional for the benefit of the visually impaired. Thanks for suggesting it to me. It's more important to keep wikipedia accessible than to be decorative. Shashi Sushila Murray, (message me) 03:31, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

:::::::That's a great looking Signature! I love it! Thegooduser Let's Chat 🍁 03:36, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

::::::::Except that the message me dosen't link to the talk page. I'm not sure why not. Regards, Ariconte (talk) 03:39, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

:::::::::{{u|Ariconte}}, I think it's because we're on the talk page. Isn't that how this functions? Above I had it set to link only to the talk page and you can see that that's blacked out and bolded. Shashi Sushila Murray, (message me) 03:41, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

::::::::::::Yes, the link will not work when you are on their talk page. :) Thegooduser Let's Chat 🍁 03:50, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

{{Archive bottom}}

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File:TWA guide left bottom.png

:::::Hi Shashi Sushila Murray! We're so happy you wanted to play to learn, as a friendly and fun way to get into our community and mission. I think these links might be helpful to you as you get started.

::::::* The Wikipedia Adventure Start Page

::::::* The Wikipedia Adventure Lounge

::::::* The Teahouse new editor help space

::::::* Wikipedia Help pages

-- 21:45, Monday, November 5, 2018 (UTC)

{{Wikipedia:TWA/Navigation2}}

I want to thank you for your assistance. I have cleaned up my page on Councillor William Farrar as best I can. Maybe you can look it over and tell me if it is ready to publish. But I am frustrated because wikipedia does not have a link by which I can email you communicating via your talk page is frustrating it took me three tries. And I don't know how to ping you Alvanhholmes Alvanhholmes (talk) 22:56, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

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Shashi,

You were helping me with my edits on Jean Blackwell Hutson page, and added "[citation needed]" blocks, I have added the required citations but am unsure how to now remove these [citation needed] could you please do so for me?

Thank you for your help,

20:41, 18 November 2018 (UTC)

Historydet (talk) 20:41, 18 November 2018 (UTC)

:Hi, {{u|Historydet}}. Of course. I'll take a look right now, then I'll leave an update here once I'm done. Sincerely, Shashi Sushila Murray, (message me) 20:43, 18 November 2018 (UTC)

::Hi, {{u|Historydet}}. I removed all of the {{citation needed|date=November 2018}} templates that I had added. There are two ways you could have removed them yourself which I'll explain to you here, since I'm sure it's not straightforward (I'm a new editor too and have been learning a lot as I go):

::# If you are editing via the visual editor, then you would click just after the tiny "citation needed" superscript and hit the backspace button until it's deleted.

::# If you are editing via the source editor, you can use the find feature to quickly locate the code {{citation needed|date=November 2018}} and delete it from the code itself. To do this you press CTRL+F on your keyboard and it will open up a find and replace dialogue. There you would type in "citation needed" so that it highlights every instance of "citation needed" within the code.

::For more information about the difference between source editors and visual editors you can read here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Tutorial/Editing But I honestly prefer the tutorials made by Wikipedia Education. So I suggest this page: https://dashboard.wikiedu.org/training/students/how-to-edit

::For more information about the "Citation Needed" template you can view here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Citation_needed

::Sincerely, Shashi Sushila Murray, (message me) 20:57, 18 November 2018 (UTC)

Hi Shashi:

I emailed ariconte then remembered that they might be away for a spell, so I will impose upon you with a question.

My son, who is a better educated and more adept at this stuff than myself, suggested a number of edits to my article William Farrar (settler)

I performed those edits, but one paragraph under Marriage of Cecily Jordan is greyed. I can't find any code in source edit to explain it and don't know whow to fix it. Can you explain and help me. I want to do it myself, but don't know how. Alvanhholmes (talk) 02:19, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

::Hi, {{u|Alvanhholmes}}. Yes, of course. I'll take a look right now.

::{{u|Alvanhholmes}}, I took a look at the article William Farrar (settler) and I don't see the greyed out text in the paragraph that you mention. Were you able to fix it? I'm back from the trip with family, so I will be more responsive (although I've gotten quite busy lately, but don't hesitate to contact me—I love collaborating on Wikipedia). Sincerely, Shashi Sushila Murray, (message me) 05:11, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

Much of what you said is true, but there are two sides to the story. Here are my opinions: The Teahouse is not a place for fuming or engaging in flame wars with other Teahouse hosts. If you believe that another host is not behaving properly, the place to discuss that is on that editor's talk page. If it is a broader matter, Talk: Teahouse is a good place to discuss the issue. If you think that it is an emergency, file a report at WP:ANI. But I consider it inappropriate to hash these issues out at the Teahouse itself. On the underlying matter, we must carefully balance the importance of being friendly to new editors who are here for the right reasons with firm opposition to promotional editing that violates NPOV. Enforcing our core content policies is both mandatory and absolutely essential to the long term survival of the project. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 01:53, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

:{{u|Cullen328}}, I appreciate your concern and much of what you say may be true, and I always value criticism and feedback. Mind you, I am a new (albeit educated and technically competent) editor myself who only got involved with editing out of my own exasperation with Wikipedia's pretenses. Thank you for taking the time to write to me. This whole exercise is both an attempt to edit against the inertia of the flaws that Wikipedia has documented relatively well about itself as well as sort of personal ethnographic research (metaphorically). I realize that I am not perfect and I come with intellectual humility and the goal of learning from my mistakes (part of the benefit of anonymity is I don't even have to have any ego at all).

:But is there an onboarding process for the Teahouse with its supposed goals? Where can I read about it? If there is, where can I provide constructive feedback? Where can I get involved in improving how the editors interact with new editors on the Teahouse? (I've found, for example, this guide through the Teahouse's documentation that I've used to learn from that some editors clearly don't care about). According to your logic I am enforcing the goal of the initial research project, the intentions of the Teahouse, and its own supposed guidelines. Perhaps it is lessappropriate to critique the uglier side of Wikipedia in an open forum that new and inexperienced editors may see. However it's absolutely inappropriate, whether someone is an administrator or not, to roast a well intentioned new woman editor. What's the point of the guidelines if I'm not supposed to point out their violation within Wikipedia's fora that have explicitly defined intentions? If anything my apology to the new editor and pointing to the Teahouse's guidelines, as well as purported guidelines for communication on Wikipedia itself, is a constructive contribution in the same tone of the editor violating Wikipedia's norms and, more narrowly, the Teahouse's purported norms. Would you mind providing them with a similar admonishment on their talk page? Sincerely, Shashi Sushila Murray, (message me) 02:13, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

::PS, {{u|Cullen328}}. In case there's any doubt in your mind (as it appears to be) that I don't take seriously the importance of reverting and blocking conflict of interest edits (and the importance of a very assertive warning about them, you can look at my edit history. Please take particular note of the welcome template I posted on the editor-in-question's talk page as well as the barn star for the kind editor providing warnings and admonishments within the guidelines and goals of interacting with new women editors. Sincerely, Shashi Sushila Murray, (message me) 02:36, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

::I am not roasting you; I am trying to engage you in conversation. Check my edit history as well. I have admonished many editors on their talk pages and welcomed and helped far more, at the Teahouse and at other venues. I am not sure which "pretenses" you are referring to, unless it is an allusion to sincere efforts to protect the world's #5 website from a 24/7/365 onslaught of really bad content, much of it highly promotional and contrary to the very policies and guidelines that have made this project a success. As for an "onboarding process", Wikipedia has no such thing. Anyone can edit anything almost anywhere on this encyclopedia, as long as they comply with our policies and guidelines. You are entitled to your feelings about the shortcomings of this project and if you actually knew me and looked into my contributions to this project, maybe you would understand that I share many of your concerns but work for change as I see fit, trying to avoid counterproductive confrontation. WP:Assume good faith is both very good advice and a guideline. I am convinced that you are here in good faith and hope that you feel the same way about me. My goal is always the improvement of the encyclopedia and that absolutely includes welcoming and assisting new editors. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 02:53, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

:::Dear {{u|Cullen328}}, please forgive me if my second paragraph has an aggressive tone. I apologize. I've learned that you have to be very assertive on this website if you're going to get any constructive editing done while ensuring that articles maintain a neutral point of view, etc. Before returning to the talk page here I was actually reading through your profile (thank you for being kind to new editors) and self-consciously reflecting on my own edit history. I understand completely the need to protect the content on this website. In fact, I've been considering reverting some of my own edits for fear that I've included inappropriate sources (it's hard to tell with regional newspapers on regional topics). I've seen you kindly welcoming users in the Teahouse before and I appreciate it very much. I am, however, not going to pretend that Wikipedia doesn't have any flaws and part of protecting the content of Wikipedia from a 24/7/365 onslaught may also mean focusing on types of onslaughts other than naive good faith edits, (unfortunately) under-educated educators, vandalism, student editors, etc. My particular gripe is, as I said, with Wikipedia's own well-documented flaws. I understand that there's a response page, but my education has taught me to criticize everything in the spirit of friendly and constructive improvement.

:::I think that we agree more than we disagree. I value the feedback as this is part of the process of socialization necessary to navigate this very interesting collaborative project. Sincerely, Shashi Sushila Murray, (message me) 03:14, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

::::Echoing my comments at my talk page where you kindly left a barnstar, thank you very much. I feel sure that this useful conversation will continue at another time. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 03:39, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

:::::Hi, {{u|Cullen328}}. After rereading the discussion I realized that you thought I was referring to myself as the object of roasting (and you as the roaster). Sorry for the ambiguity, but that was meant to refer to the discussion at the Teahouse. PS: I just read about your process to adminship here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2018-05-24/Op-ed Congrats. While thinking about the numbers, perhaps the incivility and meanness that seems common on here is a consequence of increasing content combined with shrinking admin numbers. That is, siege mentality since there's not enough people to do the maintenance and policing work. Sincerely, Shashi Sushila Murray, (message me) 19:08, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

::::::Thank you for clarifying the "roasting" comment. It is indisputable that incivility is a problem on Wikipedia but in all honesty, I think Wikipedia is less uncivil than most other open online forums where people contribute anonymously. Wikipedia by definition deals with the most controversial and tragic aspects of humanity and it would be remarkable if the passions that accompany injustice, war, crime and catastrophe were not also expressed on Wikipedia. In my experience, incivility rarely begins with administrators but rather more commonly it begins with either newcomers or with established editors who do not have a snowball's chance in hell of ever becoming an administrator. When conflicts among editors intensify, then yes, some admins do stray into incivility, and that is certainly a bad thing. But varying perceptions are also involved. If I indefinitely block an editor who is a racist fanatic, that person may well perceive my actions as uncivil, while I perceive the block as necessary to protect the encyclopedia. I block people like that all the time without any hesitation or regret.

::::::As for a "siege mentality", that is also something that I do not really see. Yes, the number of admins has declined from about 1850 to about 1450 but I do not personally see that as a crisis, at least yet. There are not an excessive number of administrative backlogs as far as I know, and it seems to me that there are almost always plenty of administrators "on duty" to deal with the latest crises. As I perceive things, these charts of the decline in administrators and active editors are all a little bit misleading because Wikipedia had social aspects of a fad about ten to twelve years ago. People loved to write an article or two and a certain percentage thought it would be cool to become a sysop. So those numbers soared. Unsurprisingly, many of these people did not stick with the project over the long haul. People's perceptions of Wikipedia work seem to have shifted from seeing it as exciting and faddish to routine and mundane. And of the roughly 1450 current administrators, the most active 20% are probably doing 80% of the work. It has always been that way in volunteer organizations.

::::::Take my comments with a grain of salt, as I am both an optimist and a bit of a contrarian. I am speaking only for myself, not for all administrators or experienced editors. When I hear someone say "this is terrible!" when discussing ordinary human interactions, my first inclination is to say, "maybe it is not as bad as you think, and here are the reasons why". On the other hand, if things really are terrible, then I will act decisively. That is why I never tolerate overt racism or sexism. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 20:34, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

:::::::Thanks for your insight, {{u|Cullen328}}. I'm really trying to get a feel for this website, since I've been a (skeptical) passive reader for years (besides the odd anonymous copy edit once or twice every two years). We're living in a scary age of disinformation and propagandizing with shifting definitions of truth (how long will it be before that infects this website if it hasn't already). This is probably one of the first stops for information for the vast majority of people. Consequently, I'm trying to learn what's going on in content creation while also reading as many serious studies and critiques as possible. However, I think it would be naive to not also take time to try to contribute and to interact with the content creators as well, so I value your perspective especially. Sincerely, Shashi Sushila Murray, (message me) 20:54, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

== Alvanhholmes ==

I just saw your response to Yolandanavas on 21 NOvember. I almost posted applause. Way to go. Time someone put thee macho aholes in their place.

But I don't think that a noob like me would get away with it.

And if you have a sec, Could you check over my draft article draft:John Ferrar(Virginia Settler), when it was moved to draft it was retitle, and retitled incorrectly and confusing (he was not a Virginia Settler, never set foot on this continent), it should be John Ferrar (Deputy Treasurer, ,Virginia Company)

I also have a draft that was renamed draft:John Ferrar (Lincolnshire, esquire) it should be named John Ferrar the elder of London, Esq.

I've asked twice on the Teahouse for help, and no answer. I even asked the user who I think moved it to draft to rename and again no answer.

He instructed me to move the conversation from his talk page to the Teahouse. I did so, and now he ignores me. Sure a lot of prima donna's and don's and ego on this site. Alvanhholmes (talk) 13:29, 23 November 2018 (UTC)

A favor. I think that I have improved remarkably since I first started, thanks to you and others, a long, long way to go tho. I am having a problem which I do not know how to solve, as I can't recognize the problem. Two users, one whom I assume is admin, has informed me that my language in at least one of these articles is archaic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft:John_Ferrar_(London,_Esquire) and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft:John_Ferrar_(Deputy_Treasurer,_Virginia_Company). The problem I have is recognizing my own archaic language. It is one thing to tell someone that their language is archaic and another to cite examples so they know what is meant. Can you review and inform me (copy paste) the archaic language that you see. I recall you mentioning in another article my use of the word "with child". I see a bit of Trumpian contamination in society, which bleeds off into wiki, the inability to admit an error, but rather a doubling down when called out. I might be wrong, but that is what I sense, not with you of course. I have also seen some extremely rude talk and posturing , a shame, it seems at times the site is awash with teens hiding behind keyboardsAlvanhholmes (talk) 02:50, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

:Hi, {{u|Alvanhholmes}}. Yes, of course, I'll read through it tomorrow. Where I am it's rather late, so I'm afraid I wouldn't be very much help in that form of revision until I've slept. I think, however, that you are running up against something that's commonly critiqued about Wikipedia (if you've noticed my user page is actually full of critiques).

:For years I used Wikipedia with distrust as solely a place to find a list of external links and sources to click on and read through. However, recently, under two months ago, I decided to try doing some editing--initially as an unregistered IP. That was fascinating, since the reasons for reversions and edits sometimes seem pretty crazy. For example, I was helping to edit the Pittsburgh Synagogue Shooting page, since it felt like a way to help by at least creating comprehensive coverage while I was obsessively reading about it. Another non-registered editor corrected the name of the shooter, since the court had verified that the middle initial of the shooter was different from what was being widely reported. Some overly vigilant (or perhaps not vigilant enough) editor wasn't even taking the time to glance at the URL let alone to read through the official document. So, after enough reversions back and forth, I cited a rule against three reverts in 24 hours and pinged a few other registered editors to get them to stop.

:So, unfortunately, I don't really have too much faith in the community here and I think you are giving this an apt description: "the inability to admit an error, but rather a doubling down when called out" and "extremely rude talk and posturing , a shame, it seems at times the site is awash with teens hiding behind keyboards". Unfortunately, I don't think it's teens doing it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedians#Demographics They're sitting on a hoard and have built themselves a hierarchical pecking order and I get the impression that they don't want too many outsiders coming in and disrupting the hierarchy. Sincerely, Shashi Sushila Murray, (message me) 05:43, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for the emotional support. I first logged onto the internet before there was even a NetscapeNavigator (you probably never heard of that) My modem wa a 2420 baud, dial up, we posted on boards, in text, the forum was the WELL, Whole Earth "Lectronic Link) out of Sausalito near San Francisco. Members were mostly academics, pretty intellectual stuff, one of the members invented an email program called Eudora. Then came Browsers and forums and I wound up on stuff like Anomalies and Enigmas, then Liberty Forum and started to encounter these impotent types. Men (never a woman) who sat behind a computer screen, with their Superman cape, and a jar of vaseline if you get my drift. Your mention of the Synagogue shooting, evokes images of all of the horrors going on in this country and it's descent into fundamentalist intolerance of neo fascism. My hours on wikipedia was an escape from all of this.Alvanhholmes (talk) 16:32, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

:Hello, {{u|Alvanhholmes}}, I am sorry that no volunteer got around to answering your question about the titles of the drafts. One reason might be that draft titles are far less important than article titles. Basically, nobody cares much about the title of a draft but we do care about the titles of actual encyclopedia articles. And it is very easy to change draft titles. You change the title by moving the draft to a new draft page with the title you want. Please read Help:How to move a page which explains the process. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 23:52, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

Shashi Sushila Murray Thank you. Fortunately someone eventually did respond and taught me how to move drafts. I do appreciate you getting back to me. This has been quite the task for a really, really silver suffer, but I am catching on. Hint I can't remember all of the syntax so I have created a document on Word which has effective templates and instructionsAlvanhholmes (talk) 00:15, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

:{{u|Alvanhholmes}}, please take a look at Help:Cheatsheet which shows all of the most common Wikitext coding techniques. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 00:23, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

{{reply to|Cullen328}} Thanks for that. I looked at it and there are somethings I don't understand and might be asking a question about, such as link to another page. or is what ismeant is something like this Teahouse. I have to get my mind wrapped around these upper and lower case bracketsAlvanhholmes (talk) 00:51, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

• {{u|Alvanhholmes}}, I'm going to take some time now to read through your drafts and I'll copy and paste what I perceive as "archaic" language below (that's hard to change, since it's a matter of writing style which, of course, would be influenced by everyone growing up in different eras and depends on what types of texts we tend to read... to me it seems like hair splitting and I don't understand why they don't just correct style themselves a bit. However, they might just be worried about potential close paraphrasing which could make them hesitant to do any changes themselves).

:Additionally, not that it's super important at this point, I noticed that the initial user (Frayae) who approved the draft of that first article was actually banned for being what Wikipedia calls a "sock-puppet" (an alias account for a user who is up to no good of some kind). It would be fallacious to pretend that that means that they applied the wrong judgment in approving your draft (the basics of evaluating arguments are evaluating them on their own merits separate from the identity of the arguer), however, I wonder if that's prejudicing the current editors' evaluations of your drafts. Perhaps {{u|Cullen328}} could provide some more insight (I'm not sure how to pull up Frayae's review history, Cullen, but it was still visible in the history of the initially approved article I think on its talk page). Sincerely, Shashi Sushila Murray, (message me) 01:16, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

::I very much doubt that the fact that a blocked sockpuppet approved an earlier draft is prejudicing the current reviewers but I could be wrong. The Frayae sock account was very prolific in the several months that it was active, and its edit history (except deleted edits) can be examined by anyone. I do not know how to filter out the AFC related edits but perhaps an editor with better technical skills could do that. The biggest problem I see with that article at first glance is that it is largely based on a book seemingly written by Alvanhholmes in 1972, which may be self-published. Most reviewers would quite understandably be skeptical of that. Shashi Sushila Murray, I am interested in your assessment after reading the drafts. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 01:55, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

:::Thanks, {{u|Cullen328}}. Their prior article that was moved into mainspace had much better sourcing in the end and looked quite good with minimal syntax, grammar, or phrasing errors. It was longer and the citations were clearer. I think the problem came when they brought attention to the realization that their article was about two separate people and their attempt to separate the two. I'm a bit frustrated that I hadn't saved a copy of it to "rescue" it. I'm not sure how to track it down (I'll see if I can track down some links from archived teahouse discussions via the Alvanhholmes username). If you note on Alvan's user page they picked this username in honor of the author who did the difficult research and published the works that they're reading. Is there a disclosure process that {{u|Alvanhholmes}} should go through to appropriately indicate this on their user page? Sincerely, Shashi Sushila Murray, (message me) 02:01, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

::::Thank you for pointing me to the information at User:Alvanhholmes and I apologize for drawing the wrong conclusions. That explains a lot. I think that the disclosure there is all that is needed. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 02:08, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

::Alright, here are quotes from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft:John_Ferrar_(London,_Esquire) and my reactions to them. Note: I will explicitly indicate the quotes that I view as unambiguously "archaic" (is there a better term for this within the subject of writing?) otherwise it could just be a conflict between your style or voice and my style or voice of writing.

::Also, as I'm sure you've done, you should keep a copy of all of your writing outside of Wikipedia in case you get some of this published only to have it removed again and forced to start over in draft space. Whenever I have any doubt in my mind that someone will come along behind me and delete something, I make a copy of it and save it. This way the faulty judgment of an editor doesn't force me to start over again.

• "was first of the family granted the right to bear arms. As was his son Henry."

::I would write this as "was the first in the Ferrar family granted the right to bears arms (eventually his son, Henry, was too)." If they were granted this right simultaneously, then you could write it differently, but I wasn't sure which was true.

• "These pedigrees are recorded in the Visitation of Surrey and Visitation of Hertford mentioned and referenced below."

::I would use a word other than "pedigrees." Although I understand, you should write for as general an audience as possible. I've read some Wikipedian writers who say that they write for a third-grade audience. However, they qualify this statement by pointing out that other Wikipedians react with horror at that statement so it might not really be an obstacle to getting this draft published.

::Also, the mentioning of the sources "Vistations of Surrey" and "Vistation of Hertford" should probably simply be a citation. I would avoid mentioning your sources and instead use the footnotes that you used in other parts of the article so that everything is consistent, factual, and focused on reporting encyclopedic content. You're in a draft, obviously, and I remember your prior article excluded these things so I'm sure you would have gotten to that eventually.

• " and pay transport for persons to Virginia."

::Here I would write something like, "and pay for people to travel to Virginia." or, if this is consistent with the source, "pay for people to immigrate to Virginia." (assuming that they're immigrating and not just traveling).

• It may be the use of "... of ..." throughout the writing that is making people react to it as archaic language, however, you'd have to ask them to know for sure! Don't go changing all of that without some kind of confirmation.

• " pay passage for 40 persons "

::Here I am confident that this is an archaic sounding style. Here I would write "pay for 40 people to travel to " or "pay for 40 migrants to migrate to" (assuming it's accurate to call them migrants).

• "a patent of 1,000 acres."

::Here, and it's probably because you're using period-specific language or technical language that I'm just ignorant of (for lack of my own geneological research), I don't know what "patent" means. Typically I just look up these words (which I'll do after writing this) but I would change it with the reader in mind to make the article as accessible as possible. You could even provide a link to one of the other wikipedia articles if there's a page that explains "patents" (in that sense) or even a link to the wiktionary entry on that term if it includes this particular usage.

::I'll read the other source next and respond similarly. Sincerely, Shashi Sushila Murray, (message me) 02:15, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

::The following are my comments on this other draft: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft:John_Ferrar_(Deputy_Treasurer,_Virginia_Company)

::Alright, now that I've read this one I don't see anything that I would call archaic language except for what is, by definition, archaic language: old quotes! So, I think that this one is fine by that measure.

::There are some formatting issues and phrasing issues that should be cleaned up in this article. For example, the last portion where you mention a long quote from the Fortnightly Club, you could take the long quote and turn it into a block quote. I would put it within this code: {{Quote

|text=Quoted material.

|author=First M. Last

}}

::I am going to stop giving feedback now, so my mind can come back fresh to it and give other kinds of feedback not related to "archaic" language.

::If you like, {{u|Alvanhholmes}}, I'll even be sure to do some formatting, grammar, and syntax corrections that I see when I return to it. Sincerely, Shashi Sushila Murray, (message me) 02:27, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

{{reply to|Shashi Sushila Murray}}Ihad an hour ago or so, replied to you and pinged{{reply to|Cullen328}} but it seems to have disappeared, In it I explained why my main source of info for John Ferrar Elder, Esquire was Alvanhholmes. Her book was published by Gateway Press and was not self published, and she did yeoman work in researching with valid and many primary references as well as letters from the College of Arms (the persons responsible for issuing Armorial Bearings (Coats of Arms), and English genealogists which she paid to do research. The family is one of the most researched and best documented of the Jamestown Settlers, that people bend over backwards, if say the spelling of their name is Ferris, Farr or simply have a female ancestor that was a Farrar to connect themselves to the family. Neil Patrick Harris and Bill Hader are the descendants of William Farrar, in their case a professional genealogist (I'm a mere family researcher) traced their ancestry.

The only references to John Ferrar deputy treasurer of the Virginia company are in the papers of the Virginia Company of London and the Ferrar Papers.

The only references to John Ferrar the elder are in Alvanh Holmes books and the Visitation of Surrey.

By way of explanation: A Visitation is a visit by the King's Herald, who toured the kingdom to document and validate claims made to Armorial Bearings.

They commenced about 1599 and the last as 1634, as far as I know.

A patent (pronounced pay tent, is a monopoly granted by the sovereign. We have the same today in patent laws, in that case the patent is granted by the US Government which is the sovereign.

There is much nonsense being perpetuated by family researchers, often conflating John Ferrar the Deputy with John Ferrar the Elder.

There is correspondence in the Ferrar Papers (of the Virginia Company) in particular#696 which demonstrates that William the Farrar (the settler) was a cousin of Nicholas Ferrar, who has his own article, and thus his brother John Ferrar. The names Henry, John, William ran rampant throught the family.

These two articles would set the record straight for both, and in their own right they were notable. One as a Deputy Treasurer of the Virginia company under Edwin Sandys, the other John Ferrar financed directly, and indirectly through his will, the fortune and enterprise of his son William Ferrar and in that regard both were very much directly responsible for the establishment of the United States today, and it's representative form of government that is the basis of their notability, only I can't say that outright in the article.

Shashi I take your articles to heart and wil make the changes you suggested.Alvanhholmes (talk) 03:57, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

{{reply to|Shashi Sushila Murray}} {{reply to|Cullen328}}, Besides having a lot of trouble typing these pings, eyes aren't the best, I forgot to ask the one question that was bothering me, both of your mention my first article. I assumed you were referrin to one of the John Ferrar articles, but was it the William Farrar (settler) article that this banned user had approved? Am I being punished because of that act? That's what I take away from the conversation. Alvanhholmes (talk) 04:22, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

:Our article Letters patent is relevant to this conversation. As for the issue of being "punished", {{u|Alvanhholmes}}, I truly do not think so. If our kind host, {{u|Shashi Sushila Murray}}, thinks that is the case, then I will investigate further. Yes, it is the William Farrar (settler) article that I have taken the closest look at. I wish you well. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 06:36, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

::{{u|Cullen328}}, no, I don't think {{u|Alvanhholmes}} is being "punished" so far--it was speculation. It seems like the usual reactions I see from other editors to content. If it seems like it, I'll ping you. Sincerely, Shashi Sushila Murray, (message me) 06:54, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

I claim no special expertise regarding the evaluation of genealogical sources but I am familiar with the general principles described in Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources. One thing we do when looking at the reliability of a book is to evaluate both the reputation of the author and the reputation of the publisher. I have tried to find information about Alvanh Holmes but all I can find is that her work is mentioned on a few genealogy forums and blogs but nothing about her education or qualifications. Was she a professional academic historian (good) or an enthusiastic amateur (not so good)? Similarly with Gateway Press. There have been several companies over the years using that name and the best known current company with that name is now in business in Kentucky, and that appears to be a book printer (not a publisher) that will take a book order from anyone with the right amount of money to spend, and that is why I thought the book might be self-published. But this appears to be another Gateway Press located in Baltimore which is probably out of business since it has no website and no social media presence. I was able to learn that this Baltimore company specialized in publishing family genealogy books. I suspect that this was a Vanity press that would publish any manuscript about genealogy if the author pre-ordered and paid for X number of copies. Unless we can verify that this company had rigorous editorial control including fact checking, then a book published by this company is probably not a truly reliable source by Wikipedia's standards. From the point of view of reliability, a book published by a vanity press is identical to one that is self-published.

The purpose of Wikipedia is not to "set the record straight" because that is instead the job of professional historians when it comes to historical topics, and our job is to accurately summarize their work. I definitely think that William Farrar is notable and deserves a Wikipedia biography because he was a member of the Virginia House of Burgesses, and we have an explicit goal of writing biographies of all elected legislators. As for the other Farrars, I am not so sure and we definitely cannot say that they were "very much directly responsible for the establishment of the United States today, and its representative form of government" unless we are summarizing the words of academic historians about these specific people. It should be obvious that early colonial history in general and the House of Burgesses in particular have been the subject of serious academic research for hundreds of years. So what do actual academic historians say about these various members of the Farrar family? We should be summarizing that type of published research. No more and no less. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 05:58, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

{{reply to|cullen328}} Thanks for taking the time to explain, disheartening for sure, but I do appreciate you very much for extending me the courtesy. As regards this statement: ""very much directly responsible for the establishment of the United States today, and its representative form of government" it seems to have disappeared as I can't find it, and I didn't delete it. Regardless that statement is simply a restatement of Charles W Gayley, Shakespeare and the founders of liberty in America as well as Alexander Brown, the First Republic in America. Everything stated is supported by my references.However that statement is now absent in both articles. As regards Alvanh Holmes. Thanks for the insight, it must have taken you some time and research. Regardless, even if self published, the book is first rate and professional, everything is quoted and referenced and she went so far as to debunk some claims and myths, previously published in the Virginia Magazine of History and Biography, and Peter Peckards, Memoirs of the life of Nicholas Ferrar, which claimed that the Farrars descend from Henry de Ferrers, Master of Horse for William the Conqueror. My own research reveals that the name is a derivative of an occupational name Ferror. The point being that a "vanity" press book, is not by it's nature less credible than one published and even reviewed by "authorities". The world abounds in discredited books (and theories) that have been accepted and published, and I am certain are sources and references on wikipedia. In Alvanh Holmes case, a casual perusal of her book informs the reader of the efficacy and quality of her research and writing. And with respect, to diminish her contributions, as vanity press, is, perhaps unknowingly, an ad hominem There are so many worthless books published by "respected publishing houses", I can't keep track of them,especially, but not limited to political autobiographies, like Art of the DealAlvanhholmes (talk) 16:20, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

::{{u|Alvanhholmes}}, I suggest that you take the matter to the Reliable sources noticeboard to see if there is consensus that this book is a reliable source. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 18:32, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

{{archive top|result = Clearly I haven't dehumanized anyone, so I'm not going to engage.}}

Everything (save two diffs) you have written at User talk:Alvanhholmes has been incorrect or unhelpful.

• [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AAlvanhholmes&type=revision&diff=870595871&oldid=870594847 this] was written without reading the whole page, as you acknowledged [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Alvanhholmes&diff=next&oldid=870596813 here]. (one of two OK comments you made)
• [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Alvanhholmes&diff=next&oldid=870596443 this] -- it was unnecessary to ask me to "be patient". Insulting and bad faith with regard to me as well.
• [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Alvanhholmes&diff=next&oldid=870596853 this] was unnecessary but not incorrect.
• [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Alvanhholmes&diff=next&oldid=870601560 this] is an incorrect analysis of the COI guideline
• [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Alvanhholmes&diff=next&oldid=870601679 this] is dehumanizing, ignorant of what you actually linked to, and a vile thing to do on the page of a new user.

We have not interacted before. I understand you perhaps feel protective of this user but attacking me and interfering with my efforts to help this person understand conflict of interest is unwise. Jytdog (talk) 22:23, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

:{{u|Jytdog}}, I'm not attacking you. I've dehumanized no one (and I'm not interested in reading the diff as that's absurd). It does not follow (a common fallacy called a non sequitur) that asking someone to "be patient" is an accusation of bad faith. Nothing I've done is vile and it's absurd to suggest such. You can talk to yourself here if you like, but considering how you've escalated things with such harsh language, I'm not going to engage with you at all. Sincerely, Shashi Sushila Murray, (message me) 22:29, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

{{archive bottom}}

{{archive top|result = I've never had an account before. Sincerely, Shashi Sushila Murray, (message me) 01:21, 26 November 2018 (UTC)}}

Hi Shashi Sushila Murray. Would you please disclose any other accounts that you have used to edit Wikipedia? Thanks. Jytdog (talk) 23:50, 25 November 2018 (UTC)\

:It looks like Jytdog is trying to trap you so he can block you, evidently he takes it as an affront to this person and authority if he is rebutted or challenged. He takes it as a rebuke Do not question authority

:I am not long for this place, it is not conducive to mental health and takes too much of ones time. If you are told that there is a problem, and you ask how, you are argumentative, if you explain yourself you are argumentative, engaging in bad behavior and wasting time, when all they to do was to tell you what was wrong or give an example instead of pointing to a style and policy link, leaving you to wonder what it was in your sentence or paragraph that was wrong. I get the distinct feeling that the social requirement from the "authorities" is to click your heels and say "yawohl meinherr). And then get beat to death trying to satisfy everyone's requirements and critiques. I've more important things to do. Like getting my affairs in order Meanwhile the juveniles (and I know that most of them are not actually juveniles,think that they have free license to demean, insult and try to put people down, of that I can only say, you can only try, to succeed requires that the object of one's derision buys into the notion that their opinion of self is unworthy and that the opinion of others, regardless of the other is, has validty.. Thanks for all of your help and patience, I hope your road is not so roughAlvanhholmes (talk) 00:37, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

::No trap -- nothing sneaky. And I am sorry if you feel beat down, Alvanhholmes. There is a lot to learn, is all. It takes a bit of time and my goal is to help you get oriented more quickly so you can contribute more efficiently. Jytdog (talk) 00:45, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

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File:Ambox notice.svg There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Jytdog (talk) 23:22, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

:For the benefit of future readers, since Jytdog was bullying me, I want to link to the archived discussion: Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive997#Shashi Sushila Murray. Sincerely, Shashi Sushila Murray, (message me) 21:24, 4 December 2018 (UTC)

::A good idea to have a link back to that conversation. I don't think you were being bullied; I agree with the editor who said "There's certainly something suspicious about an editor whose first 10 edits are to their user page complaining about Wikipedia, saying "I only started editing once I realized just how much wikipedia sucks"."

::Regards, Ariconte (talk) 22:08, 4 December 2018 (UTC)

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Hi Shashi Sushila Murray, sorry for late reply. I got to know someone marked me in the conflict of Interest. Agreed with worked on this company. but there is no close connection while I am doing this. I'm only decided to create, edit and improve companies in Bangalore region. When I search the about Oliveboard in Google, I got to know their lots of news about finding and exams. Famous thing is that its backed by Dell foundation. So I am excited to create this. I am once again to request to check the references and improve this article at your best.--Abhishekkramesh (talk) 06:18, 3 December 2018 (UTC)

:Hi there, {{u|Abhishekkramesh}}. Let's continue the discussion on the article's talk page, so that everyone who wants to talk about the Oliveboard article can see our conversation in a central location: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Oliveboard Sincerely, Shashi Sushila Murray, (message me) 07:04, 3 December 2018 (UTC)

The feedback request service is asking for participation in this request for comment on Talk:Stéphane Grappelli. Legobot (talk) 04:24, 4 December 2018 (UTC)

• Back at ya! :) Shalor (Wiki Ed) (talk) 16:56, 4 December 2018 (UTC)

Image:Stop hand nuvola.svg Do not add personal information about other contributors to Wikipedia. Wikipedia operates on the principle that every contributor has the right to remain completely anonymous. Posting personal information about a user is strictly prohibited under Wikipedia's harassment policy. Wikipedia policy on this issue is strictly enforced and your edits have been reverted and/or suppressed, not least because such information can appear on web searches. Wikipedia's privacy policy is to protect the privacy of every user, including you. Persistently adding personal information about other contributors may result in you being blocked from editing. TonyBallioni (talk) 23:18, 4 December 2018 (UTC)

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Coulc you check my sandbox2 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Oldperson/sandbox2where I test syntax and posts. I'm playing with editing the Virginia Company Article. Can't figure out how to fit this in, but my problem is weird. At the top of Sandbox2 are three headings Charter 1, Charter 2 and Charter 3 of the Virginia Company. Each heading has it's own unique url, but all three come from the same source and when published all three, despite the fact that they have unique urls, all conflated into one citation. Citation [1] which is dated 1606. Anyone who clicked on the link in the reference would be taken to the overpage which is 1606, 1609 and 1612 have their own pages, but the basic citation is all the same. I cannot see a way around this and don't understand why it is happening. Thanka. PS my skills, but not my eyesight and typing, are much improved. ThanksOldperson (talk) 02:15, 20 December 2018 (UTC)

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(Please excuse this post if it is a duplicate!)

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Sadly, the website Speedy Deletion had been deleted. The Wayback Machine hadn't saved all the entries unfortunately. Here the more recent saved copy. https://web.archive.org/web/20180913063140/http://speedydeletion.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page

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Hello Shashi Sushila Murray! Per your comments in Talk:Criticism of Facebook#Article should be split up, I was wondering if you wouldn't mind reviewing and leaving comments in the section I added to the talk page on 4 March 2023 to facilitate a new discussion about a potential move review and splits, merges, and retitle proposals for Meta Platforms family of articles. Thanks! -- CommonKnowledgeCreator (talk) 01:36, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

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