Wikipedia talk:Did you know#Use of newly nominated hooks

A discussion is currently taking place regarding how to treat articles created with a COI on DYK. That RfC was procedually closed, so I've started a new one below as this is the appropriate place to discuss it. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 22:50, 23 April 2025 (UTC)

{{User:ClueBot III/DoNotArchiveUntil|1748487669}}

Should articles created under a conflict of interest be allowed to run on Did you know? Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 02:44, 24 April 2025 (UTC)

The previous RfC, which was started by {{u|Thriley}}, came in the wake of two nominations by {{u|Sammi Brie}}, who recently took up a paid editing position at Arizona State University. She nominated one of the articles which she created under the ASU's auspices, although she made it clear that the nomination was made independently and was not directed by the ASU.

Pinging participants in that closed RfC to give their thoughts here: {{ping|Tryptofish|Launchballer|Justiyaya}}, as well as commenters {{ping|Firefangledfeathers|Flibirigit}}. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 02:44, 24 April 2025 (UTC)

:I think a page that is seen by a larger segment of the community than this one would be the best location for this. The implications of allowing paid articles on the front page are serious. Thriley (talk) 03:12, 24 April 2025 (UTC)

:I am the editor who closed the previous discussion at Talk:Graham Rossini - I felt myself that it was in the wrong venue and multiple editors had already said as much. To an extent, I also agree with Thriley but I think this is probably the best venue for an initial discussion. If necessary, it could be advertised at and/or moved to WT:Main page and WP:Village pump but I do think discussion about what should be allowable in WP:DYK should be held here. As other editors said in the previous discussion, where a paid edit has been clearly disclosed and is in line with both the English language Wikipedia's policies and the Wikipedia Foundation's terms, I see no issue with a DYK nomination from a non-paid editor based on a paid editors contributions. Adam Black ^{talk • contribs} 04:59, 24 April 2025 (UTC)

:Quick questtion- original RfC said "articles created for payment", while this version expands that to "conflict of interest". Before this gets underway, is there a reason this RfC went for a much broader scope? GreenLipstickLesbian💌🦋 05:34, 24 April 2025 (UTC)

::I don’t appreciate that the wording was changed. This is about paid editing. Thriley (talk) 20:55, 24 April 2025 (UTC)

It's odd to see this as an RfC. The issue was pre-emptively raised by Sammi Brie at Wikipedia talk:Did you know/Archive 205#ASU — disclosed paid editing, which received no objections, so the WP:RFCBEFORE showed no objections. If there is an RfC, there should be another discussion first to get a better understanding of editors' thoughts on the matter. CMD (talk) 04:57, 24 April 2025 (UTC)

:There was some discussion at Talk:Graham Rossini prior to the opening of the original RFC at that page which I closed. Adam Black ^{talk • contribs} 05:01, 24 April 2025 (UTC)

::I should have also mentioned, there was some objection in that discussion. Adam Black ^{talk • contribs} 05:03, 24 April 2025 (UTC)

:::Thanks. It seems that the objection came only from Thriley. The closed RfC found support in the limited time it was open, which is in line with the lack of objections when this was previously discussed here. I think there is merit to further discussion, which could shift perspectives, but as it stands the existing discussions do already indicate some consensus on this matter. CMD (talk) 05:06, 24 April 2025 (UTC)

::::I agree, further discussion might have merit. I don't think it would have been all that useful in the initial venue, though. As I said above, I don't really see any issue, but paid editing on Wikipedia can be a very touchy subject so if anyone has legitimate concerns they want to voice here that I haven't considered I am happy to be convinced. Adam Black ^{talk • contribs} 05:16, 24 April 2025 (UTC)

:My view remains the same as it was a day or two ago, when I posted it at the previous discussion, so I'm linking to it, rather than repeating it here. (Since editors here are taking specific note of the issue of paid editing, I'll add that what I said still applies the same way to WP:PAID.) --Tryptofish (talk) 21:12, 24 April 2025 (UTC)

::Mine as well.--Launchballer 21:18, 24 April 2025 (UTC)

:::For what it's worth, I agree that cases should be treated on a case-by-case basis. What Sammi is doing should be fine, but we have had questionable cases in the past like TonyTheTiger and his sister. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 23:05, 24 April 2025 (UTC)

I think it makes sense to discuss this, just to avoid anything like the Gibraltarpedia story. Certainly we should not have ASU stories every day (but I trust Sammi to not do something like that). —Kusma (talk) 22:02, 24 April 2025 (UTC)

:A specific note from me here... Most of my work for ASU is going to involve improvements to existing pages. Graham Rossini is kind of a "right place at the right time" one. I identified him during an extremely large project that nearly quadrupled the size of ASU's alumni list (and resulted in 13 new sublists). Rossini didn't meet the GNG until he became ASU's athletic director, because it's precisely that job that gave him his SIGCOV. And further, athletic directors of major universities tend to be notable. ASU has a navbox of past ADs. Ten of the fifteen other Big 12 ADs have articles per List of NCAA Division I athletic directors, as do 16 of 18 in the ACC and all of the SEC and Big Ten. That doesn't mean I don't see gaps or ASU-adjacent projects that I'd like to fill on my own time, of course (Charles S. Harris, for instance, is the only permanent ASU AD to not have an article going back to the 1950s). Sammi Brie (she/her · t · c) 06:58, 1 May 2025 (UTC)

I'm inclined to the view that it's permissible, provided the COI is clearly disclosed on the nominations page. One could perhaps require an additional safeguard such as a second reviewer, but so long as it is independently reviewed and meets all the criteria there shouldn't be an issue. If in future it shows signs of becoming an issue, one could always revisit the matter, but a blanket disqualification at this point would seem premature. Gatoclass (talk) 23:55, 24 April 2025 (UTC)

:I think that Tony did all of those things when writing an article on a family member, and almost nobody was okay with it. Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 02:09, 8 May 2025 (UTC)

::The issue with Tony's case was not the COI itself, it was the circumstances. Rightly or wrongly, editors interpreted his nomination as a way to promote his sister, not helped by the fact that he wanted it to run on her birthday (which at the time was not in the article). Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 02:32, 8 May 2025 (UTC)

I suggest that it's important to be clear whether this is about paid editing, or COI editing. They are different things. I, for one, don't do the former. I am currently writing an article where I have a COI (in draft, conflict declared, and the article is going to be peer reviewed before it goes into main space). Hence, I'd say be clear what the RfC is asking about. Schwede66 23:30, 7 May 2025 (UTC)

:I believe it should be permissible in the case of COI editing, with the caveat that the COI should clearly be stated in the nomination, and that the reviewer should apply extra scrutiny. For paid editing, it shouldn't be allowed at all. My reasoning behind this is that content on the Main Page is intended to set an example for the rest of the encyclopedia. For COI editing, a transparency requirement and a stricter DYK review can be good arguments for it setting an example for future COI editors. Meanwhile, paid editing isn't an ideal we should strive for at all – especially not paying for content that will end up on the Main Page, without readers knowing that the article was paid for. Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 17:33, 16 May 2025 (UTC)

• I hate to be that guy, but this is a bad RfC. Most participants can't even agree on what the RfC is about (paid or COI) and are directly contradicting the RfC statement. The responses are all over the place, proposing several different solutions at once but in such vague terms that most aren't actionable. This is much closer to an RFCBEFORE than an actual RfC and I don't think a closer could reasonably read any specific consensus out of it – in fact, I don't think it needs closing at all. I encourage participants to let the discussion get archived and then, if they wish, refine the suggestions here into a new RfC on several specific proposals. Toadspike [Talk] 10:04, 20 May 2025 (UTC)

{{ping|Rjjiii|MallardTV}} Per #I've had enough of this, I did a bit of searching to verify the "first" aspect. I couldn't find any earlier mentions in https://www.biodiversitylibrary.org/, which combined with the cited source is good enough for me. RoySmith (talk) 17:25, 22 May 2025 (UTC)

:Thanks! I searched and was unable to find anything earlier than the hook's date, Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 17:36, 22 May 2025 (UTC)

{{ping|History6042|Shenaall|Grapesurgeon}} Another "first" hook. I'm inclined to accept Billboard as a solid source for Billboard-related firsts. RoySmith (talk) 17:49, 22 May 2025 (UTC)

:@RoySmith: If you mean other sources besides the billboard sources, there are also [https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-news/stray-kids-hop-number-one-chart-record-1235215336/ Rolling Stone] {{small|"...,making the K-pop group the first act to debut at Number One with their first six charting albums, the publication reports."}} and [https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeetendrsehdev/2024/12/22/stray-kids-billboard-no-1-building-a-chart-topping-brand/ Forbes] {{small|"...,becoming the first act in the nearly 69-year history of the Billboard 200 to debut at No. 1 with their first six albums."}}— Shenaall (t ♣ c) 02:05, 23 May 2025 (UTC)

I posted this above, but issue is still standing. grapesurgeon (seefooddiet) (talk) 18:55, 22 May 2025 (UTC)

:Thanks for noticing that. I had seen two of them, but missed the third. I've swapped one out with another queue. RoySmith (talk) 21:11, 22 May 2025 (UTC)

Hello! If at all possible, can the image paired with the hook for the article Chill Guy (now in Queue 6) be used as the day's DYK image? Of all the DYK noms I've ever made, I don't believe I've ever had an image paired with my hook. It's kind of selfish, but I'm really happy with the image for this nom, and if there's any way it can be used at a different time in a different queue that would be amazing as well. If that's not possible or inconvenient, however, I completely understand, but I wanted to at least mention it. Cheers! Johnson524 03:47, 26 May 2025 (UTC)

:While I understand the sentiment, requesting for an image slot is generally discouraged at WT:DYK, partly because doing so would add additional work for editors, and partly because granting requests can be seen as unfair for other editors who don't make such requests. Plus, we only have a limited number of image slots, so not all such requests can be granted anyway, just like not all nominations with a picture are assured of running with an image. After all, if editors request for an image slot all the time, it could lead to concerns. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 07:14, 26 May 2025 (UTC)

::@Narutolovehinata5: Ahh I figured as much, thank you at least for the reply, cheers! 🙂 Johnson524 04:28, 28 May 2025 (UTC)

Having doubts as to whether [https://www.cookist.it/la-storia-della-torta-caprese/ Cookist] and [https://food52.com/blog/18227-the-crazy-good-flourless-chocolate-cake-with-an-even-crazier-backstory Food 52] really are reliable enough sources for this "Italian-American mafia" picture hook. {{yo|Vacant0|BeanieFan11|History6042|Chiswick Chap}} Hoping you have a strong reassuring argument here as I wasn't able to easily find an alternate source for this hook. Cielquiparle (talk) 06:13, 24 May 2025 (UTC)

:I'm unsure why we would doubt the reliablity of those two articles, considering that they were written by acclaimed food authors. If that's not enough, Freundin also mentions that according to one story the cake was made for a mafia boss [https://www.freundin.de/kochen-rezept-ohne-mehl-torta-caprese-saftiger-schokokuchen] while The Daily Meal also mentions that the cake was made for the American mafia [https://www.thedailymeal.com/1371995/torta-caprese-italian-cake-name/]. PBS also mentioned it on their show [https://www.pbs.org/video/savory-and-sweet-italian-SUabwd/]. Vacant0 (talk • contribs) 10:55, 24 May 2025 (UTC)

::Thanks for the clarification and additional sources, @Vacant0. Could you please add the most reliable sources among the ones you just listed to the article? And/or, all of them? The issue is that Cookist and Food 52 are written in that breezy lifestyle blog style, which doesn't particularly inspire confidence in their accuracy, and I wasn't able to find an editorial policy on either blog stating that they fact check submissions or that they have an editorial commitment to accuracy. Cielquiparle (talk) 13:24, 24 May 2025 (UTC)

:::Upon further reflection, I think this hook doesn't fly. I've demoted the hook and reopened for discussion but I think both the article and the hook need more work. Anyway the discussion can continue there. Cielquiparle (talk) 21:37, 25 May 2025 (UTC)

Template:Did you know nominations/The Dark Domain. This was reviewed, then after a random passing busy-body meandering 3O comment, this was stalled. The busybody commenter never bothered to engage in discussion. The original nom double checked and reapproved this within 24h after the notice that this will time out within a week, but this was still ignored. It should've never been stalled in the first place, and it should not have been allowed to lapse after the re-approval. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 12:30, 24 May 2025 (UTC)

:The nomination is at WP:DYKNA; its promotion is at the discretion of promoters. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 14:05, 24 May 2025 (UTC)

::Well, then someone can be courteous to give a reason. SL93 (talk) 18:34, 24 May 2025 (UTC)

::{{u|Rjjiii}} ... that The Dark Domain, widely considered to be its author's non-self published debut in English six decades after his death, has been praised as evidence placing him "within the canon of supernatural greats"? That should take care of when it was self-published. SL93 (talk) 18:45, 24 May 2025 (UTC)

:::"{{tq|a random passing busy-body meandering 3O comment}}" Oof. I commented after deciding not to promote it because I did not belive that the hook met WP:V. Regarding "non-self published debut", the source says that Miroslaw Lipinski translated Grabiński's storied and published them in "The Grabiński Reader and in small press anthologies", the Reader being "home-printed". I think the most direct reading of that hook is that Grabiński self-published stories, not that his translator Lapinksi did so. Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 20:54, 24 May 2025 (UTC)

::::People can read the article to see that was the case, and it was the first time the work was published in English without self-publishing. Hooks do not have to give all of the information as long as the article does. I have no idea how to add in that it was initially self-published by his translator without being too wordy, but I don't think that is necessary. I also think that ALT0 is fine, as I described at the nomination page. SL93 (talk) 21:47, 24 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::@SL93, gotcha, if you think it's clear enough (especially with the context in the article), then I won't object to that, Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 21:51, 24 May 2025 (UTC)

::::Sorry, but that's how I took your comment and the subsequent lack of engagement. No biggie, but I still consider both ALT0 and ALT1 fine, for reasons explained in the discussion. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 23:43, 24 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::I'm not bothered by it. A lot gets lost communicating only in text; that's why I explained above. From my perspective, it seems more respectful to say a hook "{{tq|doesn't meet WP:V.}}" at the nomination where it can be resolved than at WP:ERRORS where there is often nothing to do but pull the hook, Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 02:03, 25 May 2025 (UTC)

::::::@Rjjiii Fair enough. Cheers, _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:12, 25 May 2025 (UTC)

::@AirshipJungleman29 I didn't notice. My bad, than. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 23:38, 24 May 2025 (UTC)

{{ping|Piotrus|Rjjiii}} Wikipedia:Did you know/Guidelines#Quality control says {{tq|Concerns about approved hooks can be brought to WT:DYK at any point in the process by any editor. Doing so as early as possible in the process is valuable to detecting and addressing potential concerns.}} I think starting a discussion here when Rjjiii raised some issues would have been helpful as it would have given other editors a chance to comment earlier. TSventon (talk) 09:40, 25 May 2025 (UTC)

:@TSventon Yes, but usually pinging people at the discussion works. I was expected them to comment them back, and then time kept on passing. Anyway, yes, pings can be missed, stuff happens. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 00:13, 26 May 2025 (UTC)

Okay, doing another one! Like last time, I'm going to be bumping hooks out of this queue if I'm not comfortable putting my signature on them for subjective reasons like borderline DYKINT fails. If another admin wants to endorse those bumped hooks, altered or unaltered, I have no issue with that :) theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 04:03, 25 May 2025 (UTC)

:@Theleekycauldron I didn't see any discussion so I demoted and re-opened two of the hooks you bumped. Maybe the discussion can continue there, so it's all in one place. Suggest that if you're going to bump hooks but aren't going to demote them, maybe bump them to the very last Prep set so they don't "spoil" the next Prep set that could be eligible for promotion to Queue. (I should add that I added one hook to Queue 2 which Launchballer bumped to Prep 3, as Prep 3 already had too many US and sports hooks.) Cielquiparle (talk) 12:26, 25 May 2025 (UTC)

::@Cielquiparle: Will keep in mind, thanks :) I wanted to keep them close by so that the nominators didn't feel too slighted by my more subjective choices, but the bottom prep is where bumped hooks are supposed to go and i don't mind using it. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 06:07, 26 May 2025 (UTC)

• ... that the TV station at the University of Arizona broadcast from a studio that had once been a gymnasium and auditorium?

I'm bumping this one on WP:DYKINT grounds – I think that hooks should entice readers into clicking through to the article, which doesn't happen much if there's nothing for the reader to follow up on after seeing the hook. When someone reads this hook, what questions are they going to have, what further things are they going to want to know that inspires them to click? (Those are just the general questions I ask myself when I assess whether a hook is intriguing, I'm not harping on this hook specifically.) theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 04:03, 25 May 2025 (UTC)

:@Theleekycauldron, I put forward an ALT1 on this one. Sammi Brie (she/her · t · c) 19:51, 25 May 2025 (UTC)

• ... that Jilly Cooper first wrote a sex scene where a character wears a condom in the 2006 novel Wicked!?

I'm bumping this one on some mix of DYKFICTION, DYKINT, and DYKGRAT grounds – to the extent that this hook is interesting because it's about an in-universe sex scene with a condom, that doesn't pass DYKFICTION. to the extent this hook is interesting because it mentions a sex scene and a condom, I think that wouldn't pass DYKGRAT. There's an angle somewhere in here for the fact that it took this romance novelist some 30 years to write a sex scene with a condom, but neither the hook or the article really talks about that – and I don't think many readers are going to know who this author is, much less how long she's been writing. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 04:03, 25 May 2025 (UTC)

:I agree that this totally fails on WP:DYKGRAT. I searched for book reviews and read the first few in the search results:

:* https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/838130.Wicked_

:* https://www.amazon.com/Wicked-Tale-Schools-Jilly-Cooper/dp/0593052994

:* https://www.abebooks.com/9780593052990/Wicked-Tale-Two-Schools-Cooper-0593052994/plp

:* https://www.francisgilbert.co.uk/2006/05/a-class-struggle-for-jilly-francis-gilberts-review-of-wicked-a-tale-of-two-schools/

:* https://www.shakespeareandcompany.com/books/wicked-5?srsltid=AfmBOoo0dKY02xZMW2YJ_26XXTtUez6Reh_W33GIv_63_jhmusYCRWvC

:* https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/wicked-jilly-cooper-obe/1112126814

:Not a single one even mentions this, so clearly mainsteam book reviewers don't consider it important. Yet we want to put it on the main page as the single most interesting thing we could find to say about the book? RoySmith (talk) 13:41, 25 May 2025 (UTC)

:On your last sentence, Jilly Cooper is an incredibly famous author, and probably the best-known international British female author until the TERF came along. I think readers will know and be interested. Kingsif (talk) 13:51, 25 May 2025 (UTC)

:: Also, given that Cooper is basically known for writing "bonkbusters", it might seem a little odd to ignore the central appeal of her writing.

:: The article also discusses the difference in tone from her previous books, which are much more raunchy, and the condom use is an example of that. So this does not strike me merely as a tangential fact highlighted because of its sexual content - rather, it represents a change in style from the author's earlier novels. It might help, however, if the article expanded a little on the "changes in sexual mores" hinted at in one of the sources. Gatoclass (talk) 21:54, 25 May 2025 (UTC)

:::Could I invite someone to re-review now that new hooks are proposed? @Gatoclass or @Kingsif, perhaps? I think some version of ALT3 should work, Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 00:20, 26 May 2025 (UTC)

• ... that Jacques Drollet said he would have Marlon Brando arrested if he ever returned to Tahiti?

{{yo|DragonflySixtyseven|Sammi Brie|AirshipJungleman29}} A few things here; first, the source for the hook says something slightly different:

{{tq2|The media frenzy that followed shattered Marlon Brando’s bubble of isolation, with reporters and paparazzi stationed outside his house 24/7. Christian was sentenced to 10 years for voluntary manslaughter; he served six. Dag’s heartbroken father, Jacques-Denis Drollet, threatened to have Brando arrested if he ever set foot in Tahiti again. He never did.}}

To me, that last "Brando" refers to Christian, not Marlon, although it is a little ambiguous. The other things I'm iffy about are the citations to Tahiti Air and a city's website – Tahiti Air is being cited for a claim it could probably support, although I don't love it, but the city website is making a "first" claim and it's not even an editorially controlled source, which would be the bare minimum for a claim like that. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 05:39, 25 May 2025 (UTC)

:Throughout that Maxim article, several members of the Brando family are mentioned by full name or first name, but the bare surname "Brando" is used only when referring to Marlon Brando. The paragraph from which the hook is sourced refers to "Marlon Brando" and "Christian". Also, note a few paragraphs earlier: "But he never returned to the island after 1990, when a series of events—beginning with the conviction of his son Christian".

:I also found several sources where Drollet, e.g., rejected Marlon Brando's public apologies (something like "he is an actor. He lies and cries like a horse runs") and otherwise blamed him for what had happened, but I didn't consider them relevant to an article about Drollet.

:As for the city website, I'll see if I can do better, but I don't have much time today. DS (talk) 16:45, 25 May 2025 (UTC)

::Hmm, that could also be right. Is there a contemporaneous source that has a more definitive answer? theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 06:09, 26 May 2025 (UTC)

:::Given that the crux of that segment of the article is "why Marlon Brando did not return to Tahiti even though he had hoped to die there", how insistent are you that I find one? DS (talk) 12:41, 26 May 2025 (UTC)

::::@DragonflySixtyseven: It'd make me feel better, but you're probably right, so I won't insist :) I'm still going to pull this for now because of the unresolved sourcing issues in the article – those shouldn't be too difficult to deal with, but there's not a whole lot of time left until air and I want to make sure this queue fully checks out. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 18:49, 27 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::Confirm that your sole issue is now the statement about the school? DS (talk) 01:11, 28 May 2025 (UTC)

::::::yep, that'd be enough for me :) theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 06:01, 29 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::::Better? DS (talk) 00:17, 30 May 2025 (UTC)

{{yo|Crystal Drawers|Soman}} The article sources substantial amounts of texts to DVD extras (i.e. about the same as a press release), a [https://web.archive.org/web/20110604010723/http://the-op.com/view/article.php?sect=2900&a=37 fansite interview] (at best, as reliable as a blog post from the interviewee), and an early-2000s review from a website called DVD talk. I don't think those sources are really reliable, and they definitely shouldn't be used as heavily as they are. Could the sources be replaced? theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 06:02, 25 May 2025 (UTC)

:DVD extras are generally allowed in television articles, and I see a lot of television episode articles do tend to use them (ex. Weight Gain 4000 uses the episode's commentary track for a substantial amount of the production section, as does You Only Move Twice, Lisa the Skeptic, and many others). I think the blog post is realiable, given it’s an interview with a major crew member on the series. The DVD talk source could probably be replaced, as it's used to just show off the release date of the set rather than using as a review; but finding other sources might be hard, I’ll search, however. Crystal Drawers (talk) 09:53, 25 May 2025 (UTC)

::I’ve replaced the DVDTalk source with one of TVShowsOnDVD.com, which is used in a few pieces of television featured content (The Simpsons season 1 for example) Crystal Drawers (talk) 10:45, 25 May 2025 (UTC)

:::{{yo|Crystal Drawers}} I'll admit to not knowing the standard practice of TV article writers more broadly – despite having written many TV episode articles myself – but articles need to be based on independent sources, and I don't think that DVD extras count as independent. I also don't think tvshowsondvd.com [https://web.archive.org/web/20040625192524/http://www.tvshowsondvd.com/faq/history.cfm is a reputable TV criticism site], it mostly looks like a website that was active at around the time the pilot was released. I can't speak to the contents of other articles, but I will say that all of them passed FA in 2010 or earlier, when standards were much lower. Self-published sources are really only reliable to make claims about their authors, and only sometimes, and definitely can't be used for claims about other living people. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 06:18, 26 May 2025 (UTC)

::::Thank you for the comments :)

::::I have gone through some manual of style guides for writing Television articles, and found this, which states that DVD commentaries and behind the scenes documentaries (both categories which all the DVD extras used fall under) seem to be considered okay. I don’t know if this guide is supposed to be used for fact or was just written by a user a long time ago but I still think that all the TV episode articles that use DVD bonus features prove they are reliable sources. I have yet to find something that contradictes that or says that DVD sources shouldn’t be used. I’m not too sure about the TvShowsOnDVD thing, but since a lot of other articles (older articles, albeit) use it and have never been complained about in that manner, I also think it’s okay. I think that the previously used DVDTalk was a better site (given it has been around for years and has offered reviews and facts on thousands of DVD releases throughout the years), but you also found it to not be reliable. I don’t know if this makes it more notable or not, but the website does have its own page here, so take that as you will. If you have any more concerns, please let me know (as I am trying to fix up the article), but for now I am not too sure on how to fix the situation Crystal Drawers (talk) 12:44, 26 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::@Crystal Drawers: Thanks for the research you've put into this so far! I think we're gonna need a fair amount of time to resolve this and there's only a couple of days left before air, so I'm going to pull the hook out of queue for now. We can talk further on the nompage :) theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 18:50, 27 May 2025 (UTC)

::::::{{ping|theleekycauldron}} No prob!

::::::ive actually gone back and reduced the use of primary sources, and added much more secondary sources, just letting you know Crystal Drawers (talk) 18:58, 27 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::::sounds great! I'll take a look when I'm done with this queue :) theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 19:00, 27 May 2025 (UTC)

• ... that linguists often confused the Nizaa language with a similarly named local language, delaying its proper classification until comprehensive documentation began in the 1990s?

{{yo|PharyngealImplosive7}} I feel like there's a much better hook to be made here from the fact that "Nyamnyam", the other name for the language, is actually a pejorative meaning "cannibal" in Nizaa? I'm not sure exactly how it would be structured, though... theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 06:28, 25 May 2025 (UTC)

:{{ping|theleekycauldron}} I'm totally fine with changing the hook to something along the lines of did you know "that one of the alternate names of the Nizaa language was {{lang|ff|nyam-nyam}} or cannibal in the Fula language, despite there being no evidence that the Nizaa were cannibals"? I am a bit new to this process, so if a hook was changed now, would it have to go back for review or would it just go back to the queue/prep area? – PharyngealImplosive7 (talk) 13:43, 25 May 2025 (UTC)

:Hmm, I think the most interesting part about the "nyam-nyam" fact is that it, almost certainly, comes from other people talking about the population in such a negative way and this is part of a pattern of anthropological mishandling if not worse. How would we get that into a hook? As it is, the current hook is actually pretty strong so unless an alternative can be written in a really good way is it worth it. Kingsif (talk) 13:55, 25 May 2025 (UTC)

::The sources don't actually mention why the word 'cannibal' was ever used in the first place, and I can't really talk about the anthropological implications withiut WP:OR concerns beyond the Nizaa being labeled as cannibals but not actually being ones. – PharyngealImplosive7 (talk) 14:07, 25 May 2025 (UTC)

:I mean, racist or offensive exonyms aren't exactly uncommon, are they? The classic example is that Berber comes from barbarian and many Native American group names come from some form of word meaning "enemy", but to reach for an example from Africa, I'd go for the fact that Hausa may come from a exonym implying that the people are uncultured bushman.[https://www.jstor.org/stable/1157217?seq=4] That's admittedly a subjective concern, but, @Theleekycauldron, given the lack of follow-up in the article/sources about how the name came to be, I'd be a little uncomfortable putting "hey, this group of people are cannibals!" on the front page. Yes, okay, technically the hook says "is known by", but we know a certain percentage of readers are gong to do a little "there's no smoke without fire"-style reading and arrive at the conclusion that they are cannibals. I know this won't be a view shared by everybody, but I'd much rather be excessively cautious when it comes to describing ethnic conflicts (or repeating (dis?)information that likely originates from such a dispute!) GreenLipstickLesbian💌🦋 19:42, 25 May 2025 (UTC)

::{{ping|theleekycauldron}} Given the concerns raised about a hypothetical 'nyam-nyam' hook, would you still be comfortable using it, or would you rather use the hook in the queue right now? – PharyngealImplosive7 (talk) 17:57, 26 May 2025 (UTC)

:::I need some more time to think about/workshop this one, so I've bumped it back to prep 2 for now. Sorry about that, but I wasn't comfortable signing off on the hook as-is. Will get this worked out once I've finished verifying the rest of the queue :) theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 18:36, 27 May 2025 (UTC)

::::No problem. – PharyngealImplosive7 (talk) 18:56, 27 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::@PharyngealImplosive7: I'm also a little stuck on how Nizaa came to be known as nyam-nyam. Is it because of the other language in the Adamawa region? Is that language derived from the pejorative? How'd the pejorative come to be a nickname for either language? Would it be accurate to say that nyam-nyam was a mislabeling of Nizaa? Sorry, just a bit lost :) theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 06:47, 29 May 2025 (UTC)

::::::{{ping|theleekycauldron}} nyam-nyam (or cannibal in the Fula language) seems to be a (mis)labeling of the Nizaa language. The sources never actually mention how or why the language was labeled in that way? Earlier linguists then got confused with other language in Adamawa Region also called/known as nyam-nyam (possibly this language but I'm not sure). Later linguists (which actually distinguish the two languages) don't mention much about the other language. Blench (1993) doesn't mention any details of the other language besides that it was spoken in Adamawa, linguists confused Nizaa and it, and that it is unrelated to Nizaa. Hope this clears up the confusion. – PharyngealImplosive7 (talk) 13:49, 29 May 2025 (UTC)

• ... that a viral hoax claimed 42 people committed suicide after their homoerotic fan art was included in the film Crazy About One Direction{{-?}}

{{yo|Jolielover|BuySomeApples|AirshipJungleman29}} While none of the sources claim that it's real, none of them say it's a hoax, either: The Atlantic and Sky News both say it probably didn't happen, although they are contemporaneous, and Asquith 2016 (who is the documentarian, although it's published in a peer-reviewed academic journal) describes it as only a rumor, but not necessarily a hoax. This seems like a simple rewording, but I just wanted to get y'all's input on how best to do it. Is it just changing "hoax" to "rumor"? theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 06:40, 25 May 2025 (UTC)

:Also worth noting that the news sources don't talk about the homoerotic fan art, but I do still give Asquith 2016 more weight as a peer-reviewed source from after the fact. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 06:43, 25 May 2025 (UTC)

::yeah the asquith source mentions the homoerotic fan art; sure, don't mind changing it to "rumour" (british english preferably, since the documentary is british) jolielover♥talk 07:08, 25 May 2025 (UTC)

::Seconding since rumour seems more well-supported than hoax. We might want to specify that it was a false rumor though? BuySomeApples (talk) 10:07, 25 May 2025 (UTC)

:::done :) theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 06:29, 26 May 2025 (UTC)

{{yo|BeanieFan11}} I'm probably just being paranoid, but it's a little weird to me that the Hall of Fame entry is the only source for what would be an incredibly impressive feat (no pun intended)? The HOF isn't the most reliable source, it's not editorially controlled, and there's also a typo in the sentence that's supposed to verify the hook, which doesn't fill me with confidence. On the other hand, I can't see a reason this would be wrong unless Harvey made it up out of whole cloth, so, eh? theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 06:56, 25 May 2025 (UTC)

:For your information leeky, I just promoted two sports hooks to prep 4 that had requests for this set and swapped out this set's quirky hook. As there is a hole in this set, I suggest filling it with one of them.--Launchballer 09:36, 25 May 2025 (UTC)

::@Launchballer Really not sure if this is a good idea. I know this was requested, but this would mean two sports hooks in a set, which is something that we tend to avoid (yes, I know they're from different sports). Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 10:39, 25 May 2025 (UTC)

:::We tend to avoid two sports hooks in a set? Why, and since when? ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 10:44, 25 May 2025 (UTC)

:::There already were two sports hooks in the set (I bumped Leander Wiegand, an American football hook), and two is expressly allowed per WP:DYKVAR. I'd even say let all three in.--Launchballer 10:47, 25 May 2025 (UTC)

::::If this is the Hall of Fame special occasion request, it was discussed a while back. I felt like having all three was a bit of an overkill (the original plan was for a triple hook). If there's consensus for two then so be it, just having all three seemed like too much given DYKVAR. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 10:50, 25 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::Per #Question / date request, the original was six separate hooks. We've run two triple hooks this week and they're two of the three most viewed hooks this month.--Launchballer 11:04, 25 May 2025 (UTC)

::::: There's already an American football hook of mine in that set – What's wrong with swapping it with a different sportsperson hook like Howell or Miranda? BeanieFan11 (talk) 19:05, 25 May 2025 (UTC)

::::::I plan on swapping it with Howell when prep 4's queued.--Launchballer 19:57, 25 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::::It's done.--Launchballer 12:36, 26 May 2025 (UTC)

::::::::@Launchballer Your constant swapping of hooks between Queues and Prep sets is dizzying. At minimum you should notify the set promoter @Z1720 that they are now short by one hook. Cielquiparle (talk) 13:01, 26 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::::::{{re|Launchballer}} If hooks are being pulled, I kindly ask that a hook be promoted from the preps, instead of moving around queue hooks. This makes it easier for other editors without template rights to fill in the gaps that are left over. Z1720 (talk) 13:07, 26 May 2025 (UTC)

::::::::::{{+1}} ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 13:29, 26 May 2025 (UTC)

::::::::::Apologies, it hadn't occurred to me to do that as I'd planned on filling the hole myself, which I have now done.--Launchballer 13:38, 26 May 2025 (UTC)

: I'm not 100% certain, but I believe the HOF writes the profiles in part based on the nomination for that person they received, and they require all nominations to have newspapers etc. to verify what is stated. Thus, presumably whoever originally nominated Adair for the HOF provided newspaper or school records for the detail, or else I don't think they would've included it. BeanieFan11 (talk) 19:03, 25 May 2025 (UTC)

:: I'm pretty sure we wouldn't accept that level of sourcing elsewhere ("this organisation was given the information by someone using sources which we are told are reliable but that we can't verify, therefore this organisation is a reliable source for that information" ... doesn't work does it?), an actual contemporary (or otherwise reliable) source needs to be provided really. Black Kite (talk) 19:50, 25 May 2025 (UTC)

::: Why would we not accept a top Delaware sports organization verifying information and then writing about that verified information on their website? BeanieFan11 (talk) 21:48, 25 May 2025 (UTC)

::::Well, I guess it would depend on how exactly it collects and verifies its information. I don't think it being a top state sports organization is, on its own, a "reputation for fact-checking and accuracy" – we'd need to know at a minimum where their information comes from and how rigorous the editorial process is. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 06:01, 26 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::The [https://desports.org/overview/ review and selection process] is detailed here. Arguably it seems there are more eyes on each award submission from different members of the community, such that if anyone had any reason to doubt the claim, they would have raised it. I do think an injury like a broken foot could be considered protected health information and for this reason, organizations such as the team itself (Salisbury University) would not publish information about the injury on their pages about the athlete like [https://suseagulls.com/honors/salisbury-athletics-hall-of-fame/robin-adair/62 here] and [https://suseagulls.com/sports/2022/7/12/x-vavky.aspx here]. (Also it is quite possible, even likely, that Adair (Harvey) was not aware of the severity of the injury until well after the event in question, such that even if a hockey game at this level was covered by the media, it wouldn't be mentioned.) In this particular case, Adair (Harvey) must have approved that information to be released to the awards organization (and that is why it is ok to mention it in this biography of a living person). This is a physical injury we are talking about and the only people who would know about it for sure either way are Adair's doctor and insurance companies and coaches (who would not discuss this information publicly unnecessarily), the player herself, and her family. I can see how maybe everyone would feel more comfortable if she gave a big interview where she discussed the injury...but even then the journalist would be taking her at her word. Cielquiparle (talk) 06:48, 26 May 2025 (UTC)

::::::The other thing is that "broken foot" is quite a broad term and could mean anything from a relatively minor fracture of part of the foot to something more major. Cielquiparle (talk) 06:50, 26 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::::I don't think it'd be too hard for a journalist to verify the information if it were true – there's teammates, coaches, friends in the school, other people who could verify. Given that this is an impressive story in a place where you'd generally expect to find impressive stories, I'd be surprised if this were true without a local journalist ever having written about it. Stranger things have happened, I guess! theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 07:04, 26 May 2025 (UTC)

::::::::Whether or not her foot was broken in the moment that she scored the game-winning goal is something only the player herself can know, and even then, she may never be sure. Cielquiparle (talk) 07:27, 26 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::::::I have looked at everything now including all the coverage about Adair's performance in the match in question at the time. The main reason to reject this hook just comes down to the fact that it's a "one-sentence wonder" – you make a DYK hook about something, you go to the article and the original source, there is no additional depth provided about the claim in either. There is not enough information available to publish a hook like that on the main page, because we're promising more detail about the fact in question that simply isn't available. Cielquiparle (talk) 07:24, 26 May 2025 (UTC)

::::::::::{{ping|Black Kite|Theleekycauldron|Cielquiparle}} This is running tomorrow, so to clarify: is this good to run, or does it need to be bumped/pulled? Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 12:26, 26 May 2025 (UTC)

::::::::::: I'm just a bit surprised that there isn't a contemporary source for it, if it's that much of a big deal. Having said that, the article depends almost entirely on local press sources since the subject has never really done anything notable outside local sports, so perhaps that's not entirely surprising. Black Kite (talk) 12:47, 26 May 2025 (UTC)

::::::::::::This is actually due to run on 29 May (we're on 26 May).--Launchballer 12:51, 26 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::::::::::Just pull it. Even if it we had more sources for it, maybe we don't want to glofify athletes who play through severe injuries, nor celebrate their coaches who encourage them to do so. The subject deserves a better hook anyway. Cielquiparle (talk) 17:26, 26 May 2025 (UTC)

::::::::::::::I don't get how this is a valid reason to pull. It's sourced to a source we have no reason to distrust, and is an interesting fact. Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 17:29, 26 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::::::::::: What's wrong with highlighting athletes making impressive accomplishments like this? What "coaches who encourage them" are we celebrating? I thought what matters is that the hook is interesting... BeanieFan11 (talk) 21:07, 26 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::::::::::::Given how the issue seems unresolved, I've bumped off the hook to Prep area 4 for now until we can get some clarity on the hook issue. For what it's worth, I'm not convinced that the source is problematic and I think the hook is fine as is, but the other issues raised by Cielquiparle, Theleekycauldron, and Black Kite do raise concerns and unfortunately it doesn't seem like they will be resolved in time for the planned special occasion run. I do disagree with Cielquiparle that "one-sentence wonder" hooks are an issue (I've done several of them in the past myself), but again, with the concerns raised, it's clear that this does need a bit more time in the oven. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 05:49, 27 May 2025 (UTC)

::::::::::::::::I filled the hole.--Launchballer 12:32, 27 May 2025 (UTC)

{{od|::::::::::::::::}} I see that Narutolovehinata5 bumped this, and that's about what I would've done too. I don't love one-sentence wonder hooks (great name, by the way), but we don't have a rule against them; I'm also not worried about glorifying playing through injury. I am still a little unconvinced by the sourcing issue, but hopefully that's something we'll have time to work out :) theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 19:02, 27 May 2025 (UTC)

:: Well, I spoke with Harvey and it turns out she didn't score a goal in that game... (though everything else in the HOF bio was correct) – I'll see if I can write up a new hook. BeanieFan11 (talk) 02:31, 30 May 2025 (UTC)

{{yo|Onceinawhile|ERcheck}} Hook seems to verify to Hopkins, but the article makes a lot of use out of Tobin 2011, which doesn't seem to be from an academic press or an otherwise reputable publisher, and Franco 2015, which is iffy because it's a master's thesis that doesn't appear to be widely cited. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 06:36, 26 May 2025 (UTC)

:Franco was only used for descriptive elements, because her work is the most detailed. It wasn’t used for anything remotely debatable. The two scholars that Franco worked under are both reputable and relevant to the topic: [https://www.college-de-france.fr/media/edhem-eldem/UPL5902910219602979924_He__le__ne_Le_Meaux.pdf][https://alter.univ-pau.fr/fr/organisation/membres/cv_-sforero-fr-2.html] The work has also been cited by another publication.[https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%252C5&q=franco+%E2%80%9Cocto+mundi%E2%80%9D&btnG=#d=gs_qabs&t=1748243864451&u=%23p%3DUUesuc7JPMQJ] Onceinawhile (talk) 07:18, 26 May 2025 (UTC)

:Tobin’s work is a lecture series. She has excellent credentials.[https://clasmed.uic.edu/wp-content/uploads/sites/304/2018/07/jtobin-cv.pdf]

:She published on this topic in BAR two decades ago:[https://library.biblicalarchaeology.org/department/classical-corner-the-seven-world-wonders/?_gl=1*al78zr*_gcl_au*NDQxNDI5NjguMTc0ODI0Mzk5OA..*_ga*MTI1NTA5MDY3MC4xNzQ4MjQzOTk4*_ga_7MSGCYKLB3*czE3NDgyNDM5OTgkbzEkZzAkdDE3NDgyNDM5OTgkajYwJGwwJGgxMTYzNzQ3Nzg0JGQ0OUFxRk03V0hWeFF6d1V3Y194N1hpRmRwRUZuYzQ4UlB3]

:Onceinawhile (talk) 07:25, 26 May 2025 (UTC)

::{{yo|Onceinawhile}} Okay, seems like Tobin is a subject-matter expert, but WP:SCHOLARSHIP says that {{tq|Masters dissertations and theses are considered reliable only if they can be shown to have had significant scholarly influence.}}, which I don't think is true of Franco. I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "descriptive elements", but pretty much all of the body prose is sourced to Franco and it does contain some analysis, so it's not like the use of the thesis is for limited background details. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 07:30, 26 May 2025 (UTC)

:::“Significant scholarly influence” is a relative judgement. In a super-niche topic like this one, one citation is undoubtedly significant.

:::I can resource those citations, as all of them I have read elsewhere. But it does seem an unnecessarily painful exercise.

:::Onceinawhile (talk) 07:46, 26 May 2025 (UTC)

::::Well, sorry to be a nag – just bad luck that I was the reviewing admin, I think. Since re-citing is tedious, I'm going to pull the hook to give you as much time as you need. Ping me when you're done and I'll happily put it back in prep :) theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 07:53, 26 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::{{ping|theleekycauldron}} please could you put it back? I will make the time to fix the citations now. Otherwise you are hitting me twice. Onceinawhile (talk) 08:03, 26 May 2025 (UTC)

::::::Well, I haven't actually taken the hook out yet, so sure, if you can do it in the next day or two :) theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 08:04, 26 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::::OK. Doing it now. Onceinawhile (talk) 08:07, 26 May 2025 (UTC)

::::::::{{ping|Theleekycauldron}} all done. Poor Ms. Franco has been exorcized from our article. You will note that one of the sources I have added is also a thesis. But this time a PhD thesis. I don’t believe there is any other choice if we are going to note the detailed diffusion of the work through later artists, as no other 500-page monographs exist on the topic.

::::::::Per the guidance, the PhD thesis has been used with the utmost care. The supervizing professors have good credentials, and the author published three years later in a journal on a related topic. The excerpt used (and quoted in the footnote) is from the English-language abstract of the article - by definition the abstract is the most robust part of any thesis. Onceinawhile (talk) 09:00, 26 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::::::@Onceinawhile - Ms Franco could be included in External links. — ERcheck (talk) 15:30, 26 May 2025 (UTC)

::::::::::Thanks. I have demoted her to that section. Onceinawhile (talk) 15:35, 26 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::::::::Oh, and you've even added more content to the body, too, which assuages a backburner worry I had. Perfect, thanks! theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 17:20, 26 May 2025 (UTC)

Pulling this one because of substantial problems with the hook and article; see nompage for further discussion. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 06:55, 26 May 2025 (UTC)

I have three articles I've requested to be held for July 2, which is apparently World UFO Day. They are:

• Template:Did you know nominations/Disclosure movement
• Template:Did you know nominations/David Wilcock
• Template:Did you know nominations/McMenamins Hotel Oregon UFO Festival

Thank you, and I hope that's okay. Chetsford (talk) 19:48, 25 May 2025 (UTC); edited 04:58, 26 May 2025 (UTC); edited 05:02, 26 May 2025 (UTC)

:WP:DYKSO applies here: it seems you are proposing a novel special occasion set, which would need consensus here. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 07:23, 26 May 2025 (UTC)

::Thanks for calling that out, for some reason I was thinking there was a four hook threshold, but obviously I was incorrect. Given that, I'll strike the holding request for the first two. Chetsford (talk) 16:01, 26 May 2025 (UTC)

:::Given that there's no consensus to have a World UFO Day set, you will have to only pick one out of the three; the others will have to run as regular hooks. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 05:44, 27 May 2025 (UTC)

::::DYKSO does not require a special occasion set to be approved. Chetsford did what DYKSO says, which is request them to be held for a specific date, and from what I can see, they are being requested within the timeframe allotted (between 1-6 weeks before the date). It's up to the prep-builders and admins if they want to accept the hold requests or not. This isn't a request for a {{tq|novel thematic set}} that would need approval here. It's simply a request to hold hooks for a specific date. A novel thematic set would be a set that runs every year, and/or that is a full set of hooks. There is no defined barrier between what qualifies just as holding hooks for a thematic date and what would be classified as a "thematic set", but it's certainly much more than half the set (i.e. 3 hooks, that Chetsford is asking to be held).{{pb}}Furthermore, even if there is some unwritten "limit", the hooks proposed are not so related to UFOs as for me to oppose such a same-date run. Only two of them directly reference UFOs in the hook, for example, and from my look, the first one (Disclosure movement) could likely have a last slot hook that doesn't say UFO in the hook be prepared. For example: "that the TV show Ancient Aliens speculated the CIA caused Hillary Clinton to lose the 2016 U.S. presidential election in order to prevent the disclosure of purported information about aliens".{{pb}}Ultimately all three of these topics are relevant to the date proposed, and if the preppers can fit them in in a way that works with the set, I don't see this as a DYKSO problem - since this isn't going to be something that there is likely to be a full set to run every year. I would encourage Chetsford to maybe look at whether other hooks can be proposed for them that may not focus so much on their UFO-ness - that way there's less of a "special occasion" concern. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 05:54, 27 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::The relevant part is here (emphasis mine): {{tq|Occasionally, DYK will run thematic sets; these cannot be put together on a whim, and novel thematic sets must be approved at WT:DYK.}} Technically it's not a full set, but I think the spirit stands. Another issue is WP:DYKVAR: guidelines recommend no more than two hooks of a similar topic or nature running per set. Occasionally that could be broken, but that would require consensus at WT:DYK and an explicit IAR exemption. I can see one or at most two hooks being allowed to run, but all three and/or a full set would be a tall order. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 06:00, 27 May 2025 (UTC)

::::::My understanding of two hooks of a similar topic or "nature" running in a set is based on the hook, not based on the subject of the article. Hence why I recommended to Chetsford to try and make the hooks different. Even so, there's one article on a conspiracy theory (the first), one on a person (the second), and one on an event (the third) - so I think with the right hooks any concerns about topic/nature could be resolved. I'm happy to be wrong here, but I don't necessarily agree with there being a hard limit of 2 hooks on a topic without some pre-approval. If you think it's necessary, then consider me as a support for these articles running on the date proposed (and I'm fine with current hooks too) - since this is the proper place to discuss/seek support anyway. There's more than a month to get support for the date request before it comes by - so if someone feels it's necessary, I'd find it more respectful to just start the discussion over them rather than saying "you didn't comply with some unwritten rules so you're screwed" basically. Even if that discussion ultimately ends in a SNOW closure against. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 06:05, 27 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::::For what it's worth, the two-article limit is explicitly stated at DYKVAR rather than it being an unwritten rule: "No topic should comprise more than two of the hooks in a given update." Now, what exactly counts as a "topic" here is subjective, but if using the broad interpretation, especially with the idea that they are being requested for a special occasion, then yes, having more than two articles about the same general idea (UFOs) would violate DYKVAR. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 06:11, 27 May 2025 (UTC)

:@Chetsford, I would support Template:Did you know nominations/McMenamins Hotel Oregon UFO Festival running on either World UFO Day date.{{pb}}

:I have reservations about running the other two on a day meant [https://web.archive.org/web/20220629124042/https://www.worldufoday.com/about-world-ufo-day/whatwherewhywhen/ to raise awareness about the undoubted existence of UFO’s and with that intelligent beings from outer space.] We obviously should not imply that there is evidence for a crashed alien spaceship, but running these hooks on a day where UFO believers are celebrating feels a bit off. I think a kind of sideways comparison would be running stuff like blood libel and St. Bartholomew's Day massacre on August 24. In the same way a Catholic reader might find that disrespectful, we do have readers who will have UFO beliefs that are [http://archive.today/2025.02.05-192057/https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg26535293-100-why-an-increasing-belief-in-alien-visitations-is-a-real-world-problem/ political] or [https://news.northeastern.edu/2024/11/22/ufo-religion-movement/ religious]. Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 01:34, 30 May 2025 (UTC)

::Our of respect for our Raëlian readers, or just general prep building convenience, I am fine abandoning this altogether. I just had three articles and noticed a degree of synchronicity but I think that generally this seems like more trouble than it's worth. Chetsford (talk) 04:14, 30 May 2025 (UTC)

:::I would not mind one of the three running on the day, but having all three never seemed appropriate. Rjjiii's suggestion seems like a good compromise if you're still willing to go with that route. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 05:02, 30 May 2025 (UTC)

• ... that the White House forensic investigation of Signalgate has determined the way in which a journalist was included in the group chat about Operation Rough Rider?

{{ping|Cielquiparle|Noble Attempt|Surtsicna|Andrew Davidson|Valereee|Launchballer|Narutolovehinata5}} Multiple problems here. First, I don't see anywhere in the article where "Rough Rider" is mentioned. Second, the article says the investigation was run by the Pentagon, not the White House. RoySmith (talk) 19:56, 25 May 2025 (UTC)

:It's in the section "White House internal investigation" which cites [https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/apr/06/signal-group-chat-leak-how-it-happened this article in The Guardian]. Cielquiparle (talk) 20:01, 25 May 2025 (UTC)

::OK, I see where it talks about the White House, but I still don't see where "Rough Rider" is mentioned. RoySmith (talk) 20:04, 25 May 2025 (UTC)

:::@RoySmith I've added it in now. Cielquiparle (talk) 20:46, 25 May 2025 (UTC)

:I said at the nom that "I see multiple paragraphs that require {{tl|cn}} and these should be attended to." They still require {{tl|cn}}. Not sure why this was approved anyway.--Launchballer 20:03, 25 May 2025 (UTC)

::@Launchballer It was a misunderstanding. Because you keep referring to it as {{cn}}, more than one editor including myself interpreted that to mean that there were "citation needed" tags within the article that needed to be resolved. One editor hunted for "cn" tags and only found one and resolved it, and thought they were done. Anyway I've now gone through and added a couple more footnotes so that every paragraph has one at the end of it. Cielquiparle (talk) 20:46, 25 May 2025 (UTC)

• ... that two Vietnam under-23 footballers refused to earn their money from match fixing because they felt ashamed of their actions?

{{ping|History6042|KhoaNguyen1|Sammi Brie}} I'm concerned about WP:DYKBLP problems. RoySmith (talk) 20:02, 25 May 2025 (UTC)

:That's fair. I thought the hook reflected somewhat positively on them, but I could also see an angle relating to DYKBLP. Sammi Brie (she/her · t · c) 20:10, 25 May 2025 (UTC)

::I agree I saw it as positive and don’t think there is an issue. They are also not named. History6042😊 (Contact me) 20:55, 25 May 2025 (UTC)

:::I agree with the above DaniloDaysOfOurLives (talk) 06:37, 26 May 2025 (UTC)

::::{{+1}} ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 12:23, 26 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::I also do not see how the hook violates DYKBLP, especially how it shows that they feel regret about their actions and the hook is intended to be positive, not negative. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 05:51, 27 May 2025 (UTC)

@AirshipJungleman29 Hey there, I saw that you removed the part about Couts being a San Diego pioneer from the hook. I think this removed imagery of a classic Western gunslinger cowboy cracking his whip is a major part of the hook's hookiness. What do you think? (Also, I thought post-promotion edits to the hook would be logged on the nom's talk page?) Aaron Liu (talk) 02:28, 30 May 2025 (UTC)

:{{u|Aaron Liu}}, I think that our worldwide audience, like me, would be less likely to get that image from "San Diego pioneer" and more likely to just be confused. The image you describe it producing is rather famous anyway, and it's the other parts of the hook that are actually intriguing and unusual. As for changes, I think that bot's been broken for a while now. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 07:38, 30 May 2025 (UTC)

... that the conservation of a goat might endanger the survival of Aquilegia paui?

{{ping|Pbritti|awkwafaba|Cielquiparle}} While I found the prose stating that the goat eats this species, I could not find in the article where it says that A. paui's survival might be endangered because of this. Can the prose stating this information be posted below, or if not in the article yet, can it be added? Thanks, Z1720 (talk) 00:35, 26 May 2025 (UTC)

:@Z1720: "{{tq|The vulnerability of this species is high, with extremely low levels of genetic diversity and low recruitment rates (Blanché et al., Reference Blanché, Molero, Rovira, Simon, Bosch and Sàez2005). A. paui appears to reproduce well by rhizomes (not by seed) in situ although it is not easily cultivated ex situ. The conservation of the endemic wild goat Capra pyrenaica subsp. hispanica, which may be overgrazing subpopulations AP2 and AP3, in Parc Natural dels Ports may be in conflict with the conservation of A. paui, as in other mountain areas in which plant conservation programmes and hunting reserves coexist (Simon et al., Reference Simon, Bosch, Molero and Blanché2001).}}" Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 00:49, 26 May 2025 (UTC)

::{{re|Rjjiii}} Thank you for citing the source. I still cannot find the reference to the goats threatening the survival of A. paui in the Wikipedia article. Z1720 (talk) 01:04, 26 May 2025 (UTC)

:::@Z1720: Oh, you know, sometimes I just cannot read. I have [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Aquilegia_paui&diff=1292260193&oldid=1291079950 added it here using the DYK text]. I didn't add any context comparing it to other situations where game reserves and plant conservation overlap, but the [https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0006320700001695 cited source] about that is open access if anybody wants to expand further. {{u|Pbritti}}, feel free to revise, Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 01:57, 26 May 2025 (UTC)

::::That works for me! Issue resolved. Z1720 (talk) 02:04, 26 May 2025 (UTC)

Please consider John C. Raaen Jr. for Main Page DYK on June 6, 2025. June 6 will be the 81st anniversary of D-Day, the Allied invasion of Normandy, France. Retired MajGen Raaen, still living at age 103, was awarded a Silver Star for his role in the D-Day landings. I think it would be most appropriate to have his DYK posted on June 6, 2025. Thanks for the consideration. ({{ping|Hawkeye7}} Pinging DYK reviewer) — ERcheck (talk) 15:44, 26 May 2025 (UTC)

:Replied there.--Launchballer 16:10, 26 May 2025 (UTC)

::Thanks. I've made the update as suggested. — ERcheck (talk) 20:02, 26 May 2025 (UTC)

:::I promoted this.--Launchballer 12:30, 27 May 2025 (UTC)

{{ping|Cielquiparle|WikiOriginal-9|History6042|Narutolovehinata5|SL93}}

I was going to bump this back by a set to entertain the above date request, but I'm concerned that this is a WP:DYKBLP violation.--Launchballer 21:11, 26 May 2025 (UTC)

:Either way the hook needs to change, because [https://www.newspapers.com/article/chicago-tribune/172284564/ this source] actually doesn't say it's a "juvenile detention center". It says it's a school for juveniles who have run into problems with the law, which sounds like it is probably something different. (Maybe there's another source somewhere that used the "detention center" terminology?)

:What if we changed the hook to say:

:::"... that Ralph Jarvis first played football at a juvenile reform school before being drafted by the Chicago Bears?

:Cielquiparle (talk) 21:23, 26 May 2025 (UTC)

::Slightly better, but I think mainpaging the fact that he's had trouble with the law is unduly negative.--Launchballer 21:32, 26 May 2025 (UTC)

:::But we are including the positive outcome, so it's actually inspirational to our readership - it is possible to pivot when you are down. There is actually quite a lot of coverage about it, beyond the Chicago Bears article, like [https://www.newspapers.com/article/the-atlanta-journal-valdosta-vs-school/173200260/ this one] specifically about Glen Mills. Cielquiparle (talk) 21:41, 26 May 2025 (UTC)

::::The article about the Chicago Bears drafting him quotes Jarvis himself saying, "I'd like to find that judge and thank him for the way things turned out...I wasn't going to classes before I got sent to Glen Mills and the school brought me to manhood. It made me see the big picture." Cielquiparle (talk) 21:43, 26 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::Fair enough.--Launchballer 12:30, 27 May 2025 (UTC)

:::I already included in the pro career section "After being drafted by the Bears, Jarvis stated that he wanted to find the judge who sent him to Glen Mills schools and thank him". ~WikiOriginal-9~ (talk) 23:31, 26 May 2025 (UTC)

::Glen Mills Schools calls it a juvenile detention center. SL93 (talk) 22:07, 26 May 2025 (UTC)

:::I saw that but that claim is not sourced convincingly. I will fix it it in the other article. Cielquiparle (talk) 03:46, 27 May 2025 (UTC)

... that NFL player Ralph Jarvis played football at a juvenile reform school before being drafted by the Chicago Bears? I'm concerned this violates WP:DYKBLP because it focuses unduly on a negative aspect of a living person. Ie the context that he later wanted to "thank the judge that sent him there" is necessarily missing due to the hook's length. Thoughts? Therapyisgood (talk) 14:26, 27 May 2025 (UTC)

:Pinging {{ping|Tamzin}}, who had an erudite discussion on racist NFL hooks earlier to see if this hook is, in fact, racist. Therapyisgood (talk) 14:56, 27 May 2025 (UTC)

::Racist? Well, it alludes to something that is a function of systematic racism (i.e., Jarvis would have been less likely to be in that position if he were white); I wouldn't say it's racist in the same way as the hook I complained about a few years ago that compared a Black athlete to a sports car someone wants to buy. I think the real question is, as you say, DYKBLP, and that can be resolved by bringing in the gratitude toward the judge, which focuses on a positive and shows he accepts the role that his incarceration has played in his life, making it neither undue nor negative. I don't think length should be an obstacle. ALT1 ... that upon being drafted by the NFL's Chicago Bears, Ralph Jarvis wanted to thank the judge who sent him to the reform school where he first played football? is 156 characters. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (they|xe|🤷) 15:31, 27 May 2025 (UTC)

:::ALT1 sounds fine (although "football" either needs to be linked to American football, or to be specified, due to that issue discussed above). Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 23:17, 28 May 2025 (UTC)

::::{{ping|Cielquiparle}} I've gone ahead and swapped the hook with {{u|Tamzin}}'s wording. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 05:09, 30 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::Nice. It is also a more accurate hook. Cielquiparle (talk) 05:14, 30 May 2025 (UTC)

• A bit of an aside, but {{ping|Cielquiparle}} is there anything known about his post-playing career? The article feels slightly incomplete otherwise; maybe a single sentence or two about what he was up to later would work. If nothing can be found then it's okay. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 05:10, 30 May 2025 (UTC)
• :Ask @WikiOriginal-9 as the article expander and nominator. Cielquiparle (talk) 05:16, 30 May 2025 (UTC)
• :I couldn't find anything. ~WikiOriginal-9~ (talk) 05:28, 30 May 2025 (UTC)

The previous list was archived a day and a half ago, so I've created a new list of 31 nominations that need reviewing in the Older nominations section of the Nominations page, covering everything through May 4. We have a total of 290 nominations, of which 134 have been approved, a gap of 156 nominations that has decreased by 18 over the past 7 days. Thanks to everyone who reviews these and any other nominations!

More than two months old

• March 27: Template:Did you know nominations/2025 U.S. Department of Health and Human Services reorganization (new reviewer requested)

More than one month old

• April 12: Template:Did you know nominations/Technical geography
• April 14: Template:Did you know nominations/Future Days (The Last of Us)
• April 15: Template:Did you know nominations/Dilaw (song) 2
• April 18: Template:Did you know nominations/Destiel
• April 18: Template:Did you know nominations/Lacrateides Relief
• April 18: Template:Did you know nominations/Trichy assault rifle
• April 18: Template:Did you know nominations/Tribalistas (2002 album)
• April 20: Template:Did you know nominations/The Naulahka: A Story of West and East
• April 21: Template:Did you know nominations/Miles Caton
• April 23: Template:Did you know nominations/Bob Kercher
• April 23: Template:Did you know nominations/Sculpture Space (Utica)
• April 24: Template:Did you know nominations/Jim Lankas
• April 24: Template:Did you know nominations/Earl Ohlgren
• April 25: Template:Did you know nominations/Edgar Matobato
• April 25: Template:Did you know nominations/Matthew Wild
• April 25: Template:Did you know nominations/Chocolate crinkle
• April 25: Template:Did you know nominations/Everyone Hates Elon
• April 26: Template:Did you know nominations/Seitaro Hattori
• April 27: Template:Did you know nominations/Tommy Akingbesote

Other nominations

• April 28: Template:Did you know nominations/Nun will der Lenz uns grüßen
• April 28: Template:Did you know nominations/Lonnie Donegan Showcase
• April 28: Template:Did you know nominations/Octavia (novel)
• April 29: Template:Did you know nominations/Italian brainrot
• May 1: Template:Did you know nominations/Franklin Sonn
• May 2: Template:Did you know nominations/James Bunbury White
• May 2: Template:Did you know nominations/Smashing Frank
• May 2: Template:Did you know nominations/Civilization (magazine)
• May 4: Template:Did you know nominations/Deportation and detention of American citizens in the second Trump administration
• May 4: Template:Did you know nominations/Daughters of Mary, Mother of Our Savior
• May 4: Template:Did you know nominations/Opiki Toll Bridge

Please remember to cross off entries, including the date, as you finish reviewing them (unless you're asking for further review), even if the review was not an approval. Please do not remove them entirely. Many thanks! BlueMoonset (talk) 03:59, 27 May 2025 (UTC)

The nominator of Template:Did you know nominations/Irve Tunick requests that the hook be released on 27 June, which is a month away and thus within the required time, and so I am putting a request here so it does not get missed. I have approved the hook :) DaniloDaysOfOurLives (talk) 05:06, 27 May 2025 (UTC)

:The date is just within the six-week requirement so it's technically feasible (the nomination was on May 17 and six weeks after that is June 28). The date is Tunick's birthday so I have no issue with the request being fulfilled. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 05:42, 27 May 2025 (UTC)

::Thank you! DaniloDaysOfOurLives (talk) 05:45, 27 May 2025 (UTC)

:::Thank you both! Remember (talk) 16:18, 27 May 2025 (UTC)

The nom page for this article notes that it was rewritten after concerns about close paraphrasing, but I noticed that the hook fact still seems to be uncomfortably close to the source. It is one of those sentences that's so specific it's a bit hard to rephrase without sounding stupid, so rather than pull it, I thought I'd bring it here.

• Article: In Philadelphia, Morris got a job at Lit Brothers, where he led his first employee strike, winning the employees a raise through his tactics which included putting live pigeons into fur coats sleeves during a sale.
• Source: The couple moved to Philadelphia, where Mr. Morris was a shipping clerk at Lit Brothers department store. There he organized his first strike, winning a raise after stuffing live pigeons into the sleeves of fur coats during a sale.

Courtesy ping to @Roastedbeanz1 (nom), @Remember (reviewer), @HouseBlaster, and @Rjjiii (commenters). ♠PMC♠ (talk) 06:09, 27 May 2025 (UTC)

:A rephrase could be

:"…that John P. Morris won a strike by putting pigeons into fur coats"

:Changes:

:removing ‘first’; it’s still interesting no matter which strike it it

:removing ‘live’; it’s still interesting—if not more—if they aren’t

:Sorry for bad formatting, I’m trying to get to sleep. Roasted (talk) 06:23, 27 May 2025 (UTC)

::That all works for me. Remember (talk) 16:19, 27 May 2025 (UTC)

:::That is probably a better hook tbh. Another thought: "hiding" might be a stronger verb, like below.

:::* "…that John P. Morris won a strike by hiding pigeons in fur coats?"

:::Also, someone should likely go back over the article's text. This is borderline, and it's cited, but it would definitely not hurt to clearly rephrase it. Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 00:32, 28 May 2025 (UTC)

::::Yeah hiding is better. And when you say to rephrase, are you saying to retype the sentence on the article proper? Roasted (talk) 03:21, 28 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::Yes, I meant in the article proper, Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 04:07, 28 May 2025 (UTC)

::::::Swapped with RJJ's suggestion. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 10:52, 28 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::::Thanks y'all. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 22:35, 28 May 2025 (UTC)

• ... that due to a snowstorm, Mickey Volcan and Garry Howatt became the first active players to officiate a National Hockey League game?

{{ping|HickoryOughtShirt?4|BeanieFan11|Cielquiparle}}

This is more of a double-check, just to be sure, taking into account the new rules regarding bringing "first" or exceptional hooks under scrutiny. This is a request to make sure that the hook sourcing and the fact is watertight. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 12:57, 27 May 2025 (UTC)

• The NHL itself wrote a story on it. BeanieFan11 (talk) 14:28, 27 May 2025 (UTC)

• ... that Tyla became the second female African artist to score multiple solo entries on the Billboard Hot 100 with "Push 2 Start"?

{{ping|Dxneo|Pbritti|Cielquiparle}}

Is there a different hook that can be used here? Being a "second" is not really as interesting as being a "first", and per the discussion regarding "first" hooks, something can be the "first" or "second" at anything with enough qualifiers. I see that there were other proposals mentioned in the nomination, but they all have issues of their own. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 12:57, 27 May 2025 (UTC)

• I expressed that the selected hook was not my preference during my review. I think ALT0 is preferable. ~ Pbritti (talk) 12:59, 27 May 2025 (UTC)
• :@Pbritti @Dxneo @Narutolovehinata5 I just find ALT0 extremely hard to parse. But if other people like it, by all means switch it out. Cielquiparle (talk) 19:15, 27 May 2025 (UTC)
• ::I'm okay with ALT0. Is ALT2 axed out or…? dxneo (talk) 20:07, 27 May 2025 (UTC)
• ::I also find ALT0 a little dry. ALT2 is interesting, but raises some DYKBLP concerns? theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 20:15, 27 May 2025 (UTC)
• :::I also find it interesting, what are the issues? dxneo (talk) 14:19, 28 May 2025 (UTC)
• ::::ALT0 isn't very interesting to readers unfamiliar with Tyla. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 23:15, 28 May 2025 (UTC)
• :::::Narutolovehinata5, I meant ALT2. dxneo (talk) 02:44, 29 May 2025 (UTC)
• ::::::I'll go against the grain and say that I don't think it raises BLP concerns by itself, although I see where the concerns are coming from. Maybe a reworded version of ALT2 might address the BLP concerns, for example focusing more on the song itself than Tyla. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 05:07, 30 May 2025 (UTC)

I tried reviewing First Jewish–Roman War's DYK but reviewers pointed issues with it and recommended me to check other stuff. If the article has problems to pass the review, should I abandon it and move to another article? I was gonna abandon it but another user proposed a hook for a certain nomination and thus was called to do the QPQ. Cheers.Tintor2 (talk) 18:55, 27 May 2025 (UTC)

:{{yo|Tintor2}} I recommend completing that one.--Launchballer 19:04, 27 May 2025 (UTC)

::{{yo|Launchballer}} I see that {{u|AirshipJungleman29}} has tidied up the formatting of the review, but I don't think {{u|Tintor2}} has given a clear explanation of what the problem is. I would suggest that a fresh review from another editor is needed. Also pinging {{ping|grapesurgeon|Narutolovehinata5}}. TSventon (talk) 13:07, 30 May 2025 (UTC)

:::I'll reply there.--Launchballer 13:32, 30 May 2025 (UTC)

I came up with the idea for the initial hook of this article, which will be featured tomorrow. Where was it decided to change the hook (originally "that Hal Hanson 'made brave men wince'") to "that while picking his Minnesota 'team of the century', Dick Cullum said that Hal Hanson (pictured) "made brave men wince"?" -- IMO the latter is much less interesting: reading it I first think "Dick Cullum - who?" and I suspect many will wonder what the "Minnesota team of the century" is as well. BeanieFan11 (talk) 21:59, 27 May 2025 (UTC)

:Some discussion was had at Wikipedia talk:Did you know/Archive 206#Hal Hanson (American football, born 1905) (nom), but most of the lengthening [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template:Did_you_know/Preparation_area_1&diff=next&oldid=1291978469 was done] by {{u|History6042}}, apparently because of DYKINT concerns. Personally I agree with {{u|BeanieFan11}} that the successive changes have replaced any sort of intriguing energy with a bland befuddlement. Any chance that an admin is willing to revert the last change at least? ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 22:52, 27 May 2025 (UTC)

:: I don't see an issue with the original hook, but I think at least "that Hal Hanson was said to have 'made brave men wince'" would be better than this. BeanieFan11 (talk) 23:18, 27 May 2025 (UTC)

:::It's becoming divergent when a particular detail is essential vs. trivial (e.g. here), especially when it come to a related sport. —Bagumba (talk) 02:12, 28 May 2025 (UTC)

:Ironic. On the one hand there's an uproar over "but what sport?", then we place a writer's name who doesn't have a WP page (but does seem potentially notable), when "Minneapolis Tribune writer" would have provided better context, if mention of the writer was even necessary to begin with. —Bagumba (talk) 04:21, 28 May 2025 (UTC)

:for what it's worth, I stand by my feeling that the original hook doesn't really pass DYKINT, and despite valiant efforts, I don't think the workshopping does either. As for what qualifiers to include in terms of names of sports and publications, space is precious. The goal of hooks is to hook, and standard practice has always been to use as much detail as you need to accomplish that goal and no more. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 04:26, 28 May 2025 (UTC)

::{{tqq|... and standard practice has always been to use as much detail as you need to accomplish that goal and no more}}: It seems that some also attempt to use less words to hook (some might say clickbait) readers. Perhaps formally decide this one way or another. It's frustrating for all when "their" nomination get tweaked but "another's" doesn't. —Bagumba (talk) 04:30, 28 May 2025 (UTC)

::For example, in the same set, {{tqq|* ... that in one year, 166,000 people visited a three-bedroom house with a garage that stood amid New York City's skyscrapers?}} gives no indication that this wasn't a run-of-the-mill house. —Bagumba (talk) 11:02, 28 May 2025 (UTC)

:::I don't think 166K people would "visit" a random residential house. ~WikiOriginal-9~ (talk) 15:35, 28 May 2025 (UTC)

::::Sure, but my point is why isnt anyone similarly insistent that "basic" information like "temporary demonstration home" be made readily available in the hook? They actually shouldn't, but it's being inconsistently raised at other hooks. —Bagumba (talk) 15:53, 28 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::Lots of people have a hand in DYK. We don't all agree on the best way to do things, so it is inevitable that rules will be applied inconsistently. We could elect a hook czar who would rigidly enforce a single consistent way of doing things, but I don't think anybody would be happy with that, so we put up with inconsistency. Such is life on a collaborative project. RoySmith (talk) 16:09, 28 May 2025 (UTC)

::::::I get that we're crowdsourced, but it's "basic" information that we're disagreeing on. Or is this just involving (American) sports? —Bagumba (talk) 16:20, 28 May 2025 (UTC)

• Agree with Beanie. The original hook that he suggested was excellent ... minimalist and intriguing. Adding "was said to" was also fine because it left the uncertainty and intrigue that leads a reader to want to learn more. The hook that resulted from the "workshopping" (or from one person randomly tinkering) lays out too much detail and removes the intrigue. Oh well, at least Hal Hanson gets a moment in the sun. Cbl62 (talk) 11:45, 28 May 2025 (UTC)
• :I'm with Beanie on this one. The original hook left enough unsaid to arouse the reader's curiosity without drifting into easter egg or clickbait territory. The associated image supports the hook with additional context. The version that we ultimately ran is overly verbose. RoySmith (talk) 12:33, 28 May 2025 (UTC)

::: Since it's still running, can we fix it? Cbl62 (talk) 14:31, 28 May 2025 (UTC)

:::: The original hook was clickbait and not really appropriate IMO. As leeky said, the substitute hook could've used some more workshopping, but at least it isn't clickbait. Gatoclass (talk) 16:34, 28 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::for sure; to revise my answer a little bit, I can definitely see some contingent of readers looking at the original Hal Hanson hook and wondering "well, how did he make brave men wince?", leading them to click on the article. but I don't think that hook really conveyed any encyclopedic information, and there'll be a contingent of readers who are put off by that. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 00:27, 29 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::: How does adding that "Dick Cullum said in picking the 'Minnesota all-century team'..." help in understanding the hook at all? No reader knows who Dick Cullum is and probably the vast majority have no idea what the 'Minnesota all-century team' is as well – all it has done is drive away more readers. BeanieFan11 (talk) 00:35, 29 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::::I mean, I think that there was an honorable attempt in the revision to try and convey some kind of encyclopedic information, but yeah, the execution left the hook a little confusing and overshadowed its original charm. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 01:02, 29 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::::: I would have been happy to go with either " ... that football guard Hal Hanson (pictured) "made brave men wince"?" or " ... that football guard Hal Hanson (pictured) is said to have "made brave men wince"?", ie the addition of the words "football guard" so that readers aren't clickbaited into having to open the article to find out who the heck Hal Hanson was. Having said that, yes, the hook that ended up running was pretty clunky, and maybe the original would have been better - it's just that in principle, I don't like clickbaity hooks as I think they do a disservice to the readership. Gatoclass (talk) 09:27, 29 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::::::Well, as I said, the accompanying photo showed a football player, or at least some kind of big muscular athlete. So people should have had some idea who he was before clicking. RoySmith (talk) 09:55, 29 May 2025 (UTC)

{{re|Theleekycauldron|Gatoclass}}: I'm trying to form more descriptive guidance for your respective concerns of "encyclopedic information" and "clickbait". Was the worry that the original hook, {{tq|that Hal Hanson (pictured) "made brave men wince"}}, did not make an explicit connection with his notability e.g. mention of him being a football player?—Bagumba (talk) 10:33, 29 May 2025 (UTC)

: It's not about notability, I just think it's discourteous to readers to omit basic information about a person simply in order to encourage clicks. There are many people, for example, who have no interest whatever in football but might have been encouraged to click on the Hanson article just to find out what sort of person "made brave men wince" – only to find themselves looking at an article on a topic they couldn't care less about. Which means those people have been disappointed and irritated by their interaction with DYK, and that is obviously not good either for the reader or the project.

: Having said that, I wouldn't go so far as to say that omission of basic info should be avoided in every case, because sometimes it's just plain impractical to do otherwise, and sometimes for a variety of reasons a hook (or a set) might read better without it. Generally speaking though, the point here is that anything likely to irritate readers should be avoided. Gatoclass (talk) 11:31, 29 May 2025 (UTC)

::yeah, what he said :) taking basic information out of the hook changes what readers take away from it. When someone reads {{tq|DYK that American football guard Hal Hanson was said to have 'made brave men wince'?"}}, they understand that Hal Hanson played American football and probably did so well enough to intimidate other players, both encyclopedic facts. If they instead read {{tq|DYK that Hal Hanson was said to have 'made brave men wince'?"}}, they're wondering who on earth Hal Hanson is and why he intimidates people. Now, wonder is a hookier emotion to inspire in the reader than understanding – fundamentally, the more you can get someone to wonder, the hookier your hook is – but DYK is still an organ of an encyclopedia, and our of our basic requirements as a project is that encyclopedic text should convey encyclopedic information. (We get loose on this requirement with quirky and April Fools' day hooks, but those are special cases.) And, as Gatoclass says, we it hurts our ability to build up an audience in the long run if we promise a good story and and don't quite deliver. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 19:31, 29 May 2025 (UTC)

:::This was clearly a contentious hook and all of this discussion should have taken place prior to running on the main page. In the spirit of improving future process:

:::* @Theleekycauldron As already agreed elsewhere, when "bumping" a problematic hook, please bump to the bottom empty Prep set to allow more time to fix, or go ahead and demote and re-open discussion, so that your concern is clearly captured within the nomination template itself (and the discussion can continue in one place there, rather than scattered across multiple threads here).

:::* @History6042 Appreciate your being WP:BOLD and fixing the hook directly at Prep, but when you make such a big change, it really needs to be flagged at WT:DYK. Please also ping in the article creator (@Cbl62), the original reviewer (@Bagumba), and the promoter (@Plifal), so they aren't taken by surprise later. (Then if they miss your ping, at least you tried.)

:::* @Cielquiparle (That's me.) I shouldn't haven't promoted the set containing this picture hook without questioning the re-wording of this particular hook. I actually remember thinking it wasn't the best wording, but incorrectly assumed it was the agreed upon outcome of the prior DYK Talk discussion, and thought it wasn't worth beating a dead horse. In hindsight, I should have gone back and read the past DYK Talk thread more carefully, and flagged my concern at WT:DYK and/or demoted/re-opened the nomination and flagged it there. (And then even if they miss your ping, at least you tried.)

:::Re-reading this I clearly see that I could have prevented all of this blowing up the way it did before and on the day, so I take responsibility for that. I was also just getting back into set promotion during a period when DYK seemed particularly short-staffed and misunderstood the context. @Theleekycauldron @History6042 Appreciate you were jumping in as well while we were short-staffed. And appreciate you both in general. Cielquiparle (talk) 04:51, 30 May 2025 (UTC)

::::I think another reason we were all caught off-guard was timing: it happened to run earlier than expected due to coming shortly after a three-day sprint of two sets a day, so the apparent running date stated on the header became obsolete. Had that been updated, or at least the hook been bumped or pulled, perhaps this would not have happened. Anyway, what happened isn't ideal, but it is a learning experience that we can learn from so that it won't happen again. We can't always expect to 1-100% avoid questionable hooks slipping through the cracks once in a while, but we can at least try to prevent things from getting to that point. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 05:05, 30 May 2025 (UTC)

::::Appreciate the accountability, but there's many other parts to the DYK chain, and anyone can volunteer too. I think the root cause is a divide in what is "basic" and required in a hook. More objective guidance on this point is needed at WP:DYKHOOKSTYLE. —Bagumba (talk) 06:01, 30 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::Can you just propose whatever wording change it is that you are proposing? Cielquiparle (talk) 11:09, 30 May 2025 (UTC)

::::Thank you, @Cielquiparle, and I will start flagging it at DYK and pinging when I make a change. History6042😊 (Contact me) 12:38, 30 May 2025 (UTC)

{{ping|Gatoclass|Theleekycauldron}} DYK specializing admins, I'm seeing all the nominations on WP:DYKN starting May 23 not being transcluded, but just appearing as a link to each template. I think the issue has to do with the last entry on May 22,

Template:Did you know nominations/2023 European Athletics Indoor Championships – Women's 4 × 400 metres relay - when I edit the page, and preview removing that, the others start showing up. I'm guessing that's either too long a title, or has too many special characters, or both. --GRuban (talk) 00:28, 29 May 2025 (UTC)

:known bug, see WP:PEIS – only so much text can be transcluded onto the page at once :) theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 00:29, 29 May 2025 (UTC)

::Today I learned... --GRuban (talk) 00:38, 29 May 2025 (UTC)

::Editing T:TDYK to remove that nom and showing preview shows a couple of extra noms, not all of them. Backlog mode should take care of them. (Is there a way of sorting nominations by bytesize? I tested Easter Oratorio and that would unveil about a third on its own.)--Launchballer 00:40, 29 May 2025 (UTC)

:::For the love of Opera, someone approve that DYK! {{smiley}} --GRuban (talk) 00:44, 29 May 2025 (UTC)

::::{{u|Launchballer}} If you don't mind, is it okay if you take a look at the Easter Oratorio nom and approve one of the open suggestions? I'm personally okay with ALT4 and ALT5, but I'd like a second opinion on whether or not they're broadly interesting. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 01:50, 29 May 2025 (UTC)

:::::I thought one of them more than the other, so ticked that one.--Launchballer 02:20, 29 May 2025 (UTC)

{{ping|Johnson524|DaniloDaysOfOurLives|Cielquiparle}} a few things. Firstly, neither the article nor the source mentions that the meme helped "Hinoki Wood" to debut on the music chart—rather that it helped it to peak at number two. Similar for "was promoted by the president of El Salvador"; either the article needs to explicitly say that or the hook needs to be modified. Finally, I'm not certain that "a drawing of a dog ... had its original creator doxxed" is grammatically correct; some workshopping may be needed. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 16:15, 29 May 2025 (UTC)

:@AirshipJungleman29: I suppose the word "debut" can be replaced with "peaked", which would be correct {{done|}} For your second concern, the article states "The coin's growth was driven in part by a post from Salvadoran president Nayib Bukele on his official Twitter account", how does this not show promotion? The words "driven in part by" I suppose could be replaced with "promoted", but I feel like that's splitting hairs, especially since "driven in part by" is slightly more accurate, but too long to sound catchy in a hook imo. Lastly, if you have any specific suggestions on how to rework the hook to be more grammatical I'd be happy to implement them, but I don't see any issues with it myself. Thanks for the double check and cheers! Johnson524 17:43, 29 May 2025 (UTC)

::{{done}} Changed "debut" to "peak" (important fix). Changed "had its original creator doxxed" to "got its original creator doxxed". "Was promoted by" is fine/factually correct but switched the order to be more logical/chronological and read more smoothly. Hook now reads:

:::... that a drawing of a dog was promoted by the president of El Salvador, caused an unaffiliated song to peak on the TikTok Billboard Top 50, and got its original creator doxxed?

::Cielquiparle (talk) 02:17, 30 May 2025 (UTC)

:::Thanks, that's all concerns resolved with satisfaction. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 16:23, 30 May 2025 (UTC)

::::Agreed, thank you so much for the fixes @Cielquiparle! Johnson524 16:24, 30 May 2025 (UTC)

{{ping|Jon698|Dumelow|Cielquiparle}} there is considerable information in the sources which is not yet included: [https://web.archive.org/web/20120509034109/http://www.patrimonicultural.ad/Banc/article.php?id=31 details of the structural layout and interior artwork], [https://www.enciclopedia.cat/catalunya-romanica/sant-serni-de-canillo extensive details on the history], [https://www.andorradifusio.ad/noticies/restaurada-campana-esglesia-sant-serni about the bell], etc. I'd say that until much of this information is included, this very short article (only 20 bytes above the minimum limit and only because of a relatively massive lead) fails WP:DYKCOMPLETE. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 16:15, 29 May 2025 (UTC)

:A significant amount of the history in that article is not about the church. I don't see what additional information in the bell article that could be added besides the weight. What would you like added from the "details on the structural layout and interior artwork"? Jon698 (talk) 16:20, 29 May 2025 (UTC)

::Agree that the information in the "History" section of the linked source is largely unusable if you are using machine translation to read it in English. (Very unclear what it is trying to say and as @Jon698 says, seems to be less about the building itself.) Agree there is not really more to add re: bell from the other source linked.

::Added a sentence about the nave and choir, and another sentence about the altarpieces. Currently stands at 1955 characters. Cielquiparle (talk) 03:19, 30 May 2025 (UTC)

:::Works for me. Thanks Cielquiparle! ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 22:45, 30 May 2025 (UTC)

The hook needs to be directly cited. There is also what appears to be an editing dispute per the edit history. Pinging {{u|GGOTCC}}. SL93 (talk) 02:05, 30 May 2025 (UTC)

:@SL93 Citation for used hook: "The wrecks were first found intact by amateur divers in 2002. But a new expedition to mark next year’s 75th anniversary of the Battle of the Java Sea discovered the ships were missing...While sonar shows the imprints of the wrecks on the ocean floor, the ships themselves are no longer there." From [https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/nov/16/three-dutch-second-world-war-shipwrecks-vanish-java-sea-indonesia this Guardian article]

:May I request the hook to be pulled from the queue so that the edit dispute can be put to rest (and with some other users chiming in?) GGOTCC 02:10, 30 May 2025 (UTC)

::{{u|GGOTCC}} I added the citation directly after the hook fact per DYK rules. I can pull the hook. SL93 (talk) 02:12, 30 May 2025 (UTC)

:::Thank you! I see what what you meant about a direct citation. GGOTCC 02:14, 30 May 2025 (UTC)

::::I reopened the nomination. SL93 (talk) 02:23, 30 May 2025 (UTC)

This reference appears to be self-published, and not by a known expert in the field - [https://lebialem.info/colonial-period-in-bangwa-area-cameroon/notes-on-gustav-conrau/ Lebialem]. Pinging {{u|Munfarid1}}. SL93 (talk) 02:05, 30 May 2025 (UTC)

:@Munfarid1 @WatkynBassett Would it be possible to cite a more reliable source or two for that particular paragraph? I have tagged it within the article as {{more reliable source needed}}. Cielquiparle (talk) 05:12, 30 May 2025 (UTC)

::Sure, I have just replaced the former source by ref. 4, which is by Bettina von Lintig, a known expert in the field. Munfarid1 (talk) 05:49, 30 May 2025 (UTC)

The hook needs to be directly cited. Pinging {{u|Sammi Brie}}. SL93 (talk) 02:05, 30 May 2025 (UTC)

:Citation is on {{tq|In response, Suburban Broadcasting filed a $15 million lawsuit in New York Supreme Court against Kitman and Newsday in November 1974, claiming a "willful and malicious effort to mortally injure" WSNL-TV's chances as a "viable advertising medium".}} Sammi Brie (she/her · t · c) 02:12, 30 May 2025 (UTC)

::Sorry for missing that. SL93 (talk) 02:13, 30 May 2025 (UTC)

@AirshipJungleman29 You chose exactly the same hook I wanted to choose. But part of the hook is sourced to an offline bachelor's thesis, with no other source given. Not sure that's a reliable source. @GregariousMadness @BuySomeApples Cielquiparle (talk) 05:07, 30 May 2025 (UTC)

:I can't remember the relevant guideline, but my recollection is that bachelor or master's theses are almost never reliable. I can't remember if things change if the writer is a subject matter, but generally they're avoided unless, for example, these studies are cited by others. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 05:15, 30 May 2025 (UTC)

:Per WP:SCHOLARSHIP - "Dissertations – Completed dissertations or theses written as part of the requirements for a doctorate, and which are publicly available (most via interlibrary loan or from ProQuest), can be used but care should be exercised, as they are often, in part, primary sources. Some of them will have gone through a process of academic peer reviewing, of varying levels of rigor, but some will not. If possible, use theses that have been cited in the literature; supervised by recognized specialists in the field; or reviewed by independent parties. Dissertations in progress have not been vetted and are not regarded as published and are thus not reliable sources as a rule. Some theses are later published in the form of scholarly monographs or peer reviewed articles, and, if available, these are usually preferable to the original thesis as sources. Masters dissertations and theses are considered reliable only if they can be shown to have had significant scholarly influence." SL93 (talk) 06:18, 30 May 2025 (UTC)

:Hi! Sorry, I'm not sure why this citation wasn't used next to that statement. This reference {{cite news | url = http://www.dailydot.com/entertainment/music-brony-friendship-is-magic-my-little-pony/ | title = For brony musicians, 'Friendship Is Magic' serves as muse | work = The Daily Dot | first = Lauren Rae | last = Orsini | date = 2012-04-21 | access-date = 2012-04-21 }} has been added to that hook. {{re|Cielquiparle}} {{re|SL93}} {{re|Narutolovehinata5}} GregariousMadness (talk to me!) 06:27, 30 May 2025 (UTC)

{{reflist-talk}}

The hook says, "... that Teuku Karimoeddin was arrested by the Imperial Japanese military police for resisting mandatory head shaving?" The article makes it seem like he was arrested not just for resisting mandatory head shaving, but other things as well. The article says, "Karimoeddin, along with other students, resisted Japanese-imposed regulations, such as the mandatory shaving of heads, an act of defiance that was reported by Radio Australia." The hook information also needs to be directly cited in the article. I went to the [https://repositori.kemdikbud.go.id/13574/ source] to try to verify the information, but it is a broken link. Pinging {{u|Jeromi Mikhael}}. SL93 (talk) 05:41, 30 May 2025 (UTC)

:{{re|SL93}} Sorry for the broken link, apparently there have been some changes to the ministry's website in the past days and it also affected the ministry's repository. I've fixed the link in the article. This is the full quote, feel free to translate it: "Tetapi pada saat Pemerintah Jepang mengeluarkan peraturan yang mewajibkan pelajar-pelajar dan mahasiswa untuk mencukur gundul kepalanya, maka para mahasiswa menyatakan penolakannya akan melaksanakan perintah tersebut. Berita tentang penolakan itu terdengar sampai keluar negeri sehingga Radio Australia memberitakan bahwa telah terjadi pemberontakan mahasiswa Indonesia di Jakarta. Kebocoran akan berita tersebut membuat Pemerintah Jepang menganggap bahwa terdapat mata-mata musuh di antara mahasiswa. Akibatnya banyak mahasiswa yang dikeluarkan atau diskors. Karimoeddin termasuk salah seorang yang pimpinan mahasiswa Ika Daigaku yang ditahan oleh Kempetai dan diskors selama tiga bulan karena ia dianggap subversi. Kemudian ia mendapat pengampunan dan boleh melanjutkan pendidikannya hingga tamat." 14:39, 30 May 2025 (UTC)

::{{u|Jeromi Mikhael}} How does this hook sound? ... that Teuku Karimoeddin was arrested by the Imperial Japanese military police for resisting mandatory head shaving and other regulations? SL93 (talk) 17:35, 30 May 2025 (UTC)

:::Personally this is better and more factually accurate. Regards, Jeromi Mikhael 17:41, 30 May 2025 (UTC)

The 17th reference appears to be [http://www.6juin1944.com/index.php self-published]. Pinging {{u|ERcheck}}. SL93 (talk) 05:53, 30 May 2025 (UTC)

:Yes. Raaen kept extensive records of the Normandy landing, as he was officially tasked with writing the after-action report for the invasion month and writing up the recommendations for medals for the invasion; he was also the contact for the War Department Historian. Thus, his notes were the basis for the official record. See:

:: {{cite news|accessdate=30 May 2025|url=https://www.orangeobserver.com/news/2012/jul/03/winter-parker-publishes-d-day-eyewitness-book/?utm_source=chatgpt.com|title=Winter Parker publishes D-Day eyewitness book|first=Brittni |last=Larson|work=West Orange Times Observer|date=July 3, 2012}}

:He had done numerous interviews about his experiences, for example with History Net. — ERcheck (talk) 15:35, 30 May 2025 (UTC)

: I would like to leave in the footnote. However, I did add two secondary sources to back it up. One from BBC, and one from the Army (which verifies his climbing ot Pointe du Hoc.) — ERcheck (talk) 16:00, 30 May 2025 (UTC)

The hook's reference isn't [https://www.daltonoldpumphouse.com/the-boiler-room/ independent of the subject]. I feel like a hook should not reference an advertisement for requesting a viewing. Pinging {{u|Barabbas1312}}. SL93 (talk) 06:00, 30 May 2025 (UTC)

Back in 2018, I ran:

• ... that an angry artist walked into the SoHo Weekly News offices and chopped off two of his fingers as a "protest"?

Now it looks like I might end up writing Henry Benvenuti, who is the angry artist referred to above. How smarmy would it be if I recycled that as:

• ... that an angry artist walked into the SoHo Weekly News offices and chopped off two of his fingers as a "protest"?

RoySmith (talk) 16:46, 30 May 2025 (UTC)

::The thing with reusing hooks is that we know how they did; this one was 244th out of 432 that month. I'd want to see an article, but I'd suggest reconfiguring somehow.--Launchballer 22:04, 30 May 2025 (UTC)